[shanny]

there obviously needs to be a walmart thread now

[fltnpatx]

Back to downtown development...:banana:

[Northcrossed]

http://thatotherpaper.com/austin/dear_architects_new_giant_condos_downtown

Dear architects of the new giant condos downtown,

I am really truly sorry about your penis.

[hismasterplan]

I don't know, I couldn't help laugh just a little.

[Dale]

Back to downtown development...:banana:

And Go Gators! :banana:

[KevinFromTexas]

there obviously needs to be a walmart thread now

I've moved the posts. There was already a thread posted about it in the Texas section by M1EK, so I moved them there.

Here's the link:
http://forum.skyscraperpage.com/showthread.php?t=153252

[MarkyPants2023]

And Go Gators! :banana:



Really? Take that elsewhere. No one is going on Gainesville or Miami's and saying "Go Horns!" Go do it elsewhere. Somewhere its relevant and where you won't just annoy people.

[zx14]

Who we all like in sports is not what this sight is about. Anyway if we want to talk about football lets talk about the stadium construction. Will it be ready for the first game? UT does no longer rule what happens in this town. We have moved on past the college town era and now we have our own identity as a modern city. We are Austin with a major big 12 school. Not the town that UT is in. Take pride in UT but dont let us get dragged down by it. We need a Pro sports team in Austin with a modern stadium. And soon UT will not be able to stop that.

[StoOgE]

Who we all like in sports is not what this sight is about. Anyway if we want to talk about football lets talk about the stadium construction. Will it be ready for the first game? UT does no longer rule what happens in this town. We have moved on past the college town era and now we have our own identity as a modern city. We are Austin with a major big 12 school. Not the town that UT is in. Take pride in UT but dont let us get dragged down by it. We need a Pro sports team in Austin with a modern stadium. And soon UT will not be able to stop that.

Well, the stadium will be usable day one for viewing games. There is alot going on in the stadium (basketball courts, classrooms) that will not. But as of now the bleachers are almost completely in place and all of the risers are in. Ive seen some internal construction shots, it looks like most of the bathrooms are done and the concession stands are coming along. I'm on the West side so it doesnt really affect me much, but it sure looks nice. They should start putting up the bleachers in the South endzone soon so we can crack 100K this year.

I also disagree completely. Austin isnt a college town anymore, but UT is what gave this city its identity. There is a reason that this is by far the most liberal city in the state. Just like Boulder is by far the most liberal in Colorado. There is also a reason this became such a tech hub in the 90's.

I'd say the three most critical things to Ausitn becoming what it is are the state government, UT and the lower colorado river.

Besides, UT's stadium is far bigger than any NFL stadium. :D

I do want a pro sports team, but it is gonna be tough with San Antonio so close. Baseball is our best bet.. I sure wouldnt mind a stadium downtown right on the river :D

[Dale]

Really? Take that elsewhere. No one is going on Gainesville or Miami's and saying "Go Horns!" Go do it elsewhere. Somewhere its relevant and where you won't just annoy people.

Lighten up, Francis.

[Strayone]

I finally had a chance to get DT recently and noticed that Spring is around 12- 15 stories high and seems to be going quite fast. I also noticed they had some of the the green glass on lower areas. That will be a very intersting building when finished.

[MichaelB]

OH, GOD... here we go again. No pro stadium in downtown Austin. Where ya gonna put it? Auditorium shores? Yeah, and just build the Walmart at street level for the retail component. (ouch, I'm gonna take a hit on that!)

[austin242]

You could build the stadium underground:D

[MichaelB]

You could build the stadium underground:D

OK... I'll buy that... would work for our spelunkers! That's the name! The Austin Spelunkers! Just make sure it is in the St.Eds Aquifer too.... so the cheerleaders can be the Sala"man"ders!!!!! Lead by Leslie, of course!

[KevinFromTexas]

Not to spit more gasoline onto the unintended sports fire, but I second the motion to build a stadium under ground. You could call them the Austin Bats. That would be the true bat cave.

Anyway, no, I'm not loving the idea of a sports stadium in downtown, or anywhere in the city for that matter. The best place to put a stadium in just about any city is in downtown. It's just like with everything else, central and walkable is better. But this is Austin, not Dallas, so the only local sports Austinites are and would be loyal to, already has a stadium just north of downtown - and that one is getting bigger.

As for sports conversation in this thread, let's leave it to stadium construction. For anything that might happen, or should, make a new thread about it in the Texas section, please. As for sports talk, you can make a sports thread there, too.

I hate sounding like I have some authority ;) but sports conversations have a way of going on and on.

By the way, my hopes must be better than my eye sight, because tonight I could have sworn 360 looked like the spire was lit. If not, I'll blame the long day and beerl. :)

[LA311]

Thought I'd share a few pics from my visit this past weekend...awesome town guys!
The W Hotel & Residences
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3086/2629891479_f6a6625c0f_b.jpg
The Austonian
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3279/2629890497_1e7c3f4996_b.jpg
Altavida
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3163/2630716186_96c6155f62_b.jpg
From South Congress, or as you guys call it "SoCo"
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3159/2629897655_2b000661b0_b.jpg
Spring
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3011/2630712502_ecf527fb5a_b.jpg
And lastly....360...
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3039/2629895143_46756dbe7d_b.jpg

[jgouger]

In going back to the professional sports organization, my wife works with the Austin Aztexs (http://www.austinaztex.com) and they are a currently a semi-pro soccer team here. Right now they are a U23 team playing in the USL. For next season they are going to be a professional minor-league team, hopefully with many of the players returning for the pro season. The talent on that team is very impressive in that they were able to hold the professional team Monterrey Tigres to 2-1 for the entire game this past Sunday. The tickets are very cheap and they play at Dragon Stadium in Round Rock.

I really think that they've tapped into a huge market here, as they always have a good crowd at the games. Especially considering they are a start-up team.

[priller]

Nice photos LA311! Glad you enjoyed your visit.

[MichaelB]

Nice photos LA311! Glad you enjoyed your visit.

Agreed... always nice to see the city thru some else's eye.

[StoOgE]

Actually they could build a stadium on the lake near waller creek.

[jowens]

From South Congress, or as you guys call it "SoCo"
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3159/2629897655_2b000661b0_b.jpg

I see you have my favorite Austin pizza joint in this shot; Home Slice! :tup:

[priller]

From this morning, 7/2:

I was just thinking as I took this photo that all these tall buildings are new. Quite a change over the last year or so:

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3042/2632510336_6c63fa4609_o.jpg


I believe the Spring is up to the 17th floor now, adding about a floor each week:

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3077/2632509990_f8fbf94411_o.jpg


I think only about 4-5 floors remaining for "Ashton":

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3094/2631685819_d24d75bd00_o.jpg


http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3162/2632509698_3b6f9d4fd6_o.jpg


Four Seasons Residences, still with the forest of 2x4's:

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3030/2632510882_e27f8a4a4a_o.jpg

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3036/2632511072_075b37b5c2_o.jpg


Austonian is starting to look big, and it's just the pedestal (and even that's not finished):

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3170/2631687187_902c074e3c_o.jpg

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3106/2631686723_1fc183fa5c_o.jpg

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3104/2632510530_7614d9116a_o.jpg


The 360 building often looks a little unreal to me:

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3053/2631686199_7de7b8ea05_o.jpg

[MichaelB]

Actually they could build a stadium on the lake near waller creek.

Please tell me you are joking.

[jowens]

I believe the Spring is up to the 17th floor now, adding about a floor each week:

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3077/2632509990_f8fbf94411_o.jpg



I noticed tonight that Spring is going to dominate the view on Lamar in front of Alamo Drafthouse. It will be very imposing, driving north at that spot.

Great Pics as usual Priller! :tup:

[shanny]

one floor to go before the tower!

also, if you to theashton.com, youll find the dallas equivalent with the same logo as altavida. i guess yall were right.

http://www.artmixers.com/images/previous/ashton_logo.gif

the building looks the same too...

http://www.aptselector.com/tx/images/1074-1.jpg

while going through the site, if you flip through the pictures, you will find that the lobby looks exactly the same as altavida's. unbelievably similar building.

[Myomi]

Besides, UT's stadium is far bigger than any NFL stadium. :D


Actually, DKR is tiny in comparison to most NFL stadiums (except maybe Lambeau). They might cram more fans into DKR, but NFL stadiums are built with far more features and amenities which make them significantly bigger from purely a square footage standpoint.
That being said, it is interesting to think about where Austin could put a major sports complex like a baseball or football stadium, or even a arena. I might of said right on the east side of the highway, but that area is starting to develop. The structure and parking facilities would take up such a huge amount of space, especially if you want to do it right and not make it the fiasco that the area around DKR is on game day. Its an interesting question. My best answer, imho, might have to be the south of 71 and I-35.

[zx14]

True statement if our football stadium had seats instead of bleachers it would hold maybe 60,000 so yes. I was in nashville and the Titans stadium is bigger by far and would hold well over 100000 if it was bleachers. cincinnati too. mopac and 183 area would be where I would build a new stadium. Also is the Austonian pedestal 9 or 10 floors?

[priller]

Also is the Austonian pedestal 9 or 10 floors?

10. They started moving up the platforms for the 10th floor yesterday. Man, they need a web cam!

[427MM]

10. They started moving up the platforms for the 10th floor yesterday. Man, they need a web cam!

We don't need a webcam, we have you Priller;) Great pics!

[zx14]

Are they putting windows on the Legacy yet?

[hismasterplan]

Oh how I wish my camera wouldn't have broke because I got to watch the 4th of July fireworks from the top floor balcony of the 300 West 6th St tower. Amazing view. A family member works there so has access to it. Anyway I gotta go get a new camera, this is unacceptable. Anyone go see the fireworks and get some good pictures?

[Kingofthehill]

Austin lookin' nice.

[KevinFromTexas]

I took some pictures of the fireworks from St. Ed's. I made a video also, but it's still uploading to Youtube. I'll post it tomorrow along with a few more pics.

Here's a few of them.
http://i20.photobucket.com/albums/b234/KevinFromTexas/Austin%204th%20of%20July%20fireworks%202007/July%204th%202008/P1210441EDIT.jpg

http://i20.photobucket.com/albums/b234/KevinFromTexas/Austin%204th%20of%20July%20fireworks%202007/July%204th%202008/P1210452EDIT.jpg

http://i20.photobucket.com/albums/b234/KevinFromTexas/Austin%204th%20of%20July%20fireworks%202007/July%204th%202008/P1210453EDIT.jpg

[danny1010]

I'm so glad they moved the show back to Auditorium Shores. Seeing the fireworks with a clear view of our evolving skyline is awesome. Zilker was alright, but I'm glad it's back to stay.

One unexpected but pleasant surprise was seeing the reflections off of 360 of the firework shells going up and exploding. And the weather was great with that light breeze and cooler temps. Probably the most perfect Austin 4th of July show I've been to. :tup:

[bofways]

The 360 building often looks a little unreal to me:

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3053/2631686199_7de7b8ea05_o.jpg




I agree. Your photo makes it look like a rendering.:yes:

[Jdawgboy]

The fireworks were great. Me and a friend were sitting right on the south first street bridge and got a great view. I also noticed the reflections on 360 and also the people that were all on the balcony's. You could see camera flashes from the Monarch, 360, and AMILI.

[OU812]

it is interesting to think about where Austin could put a major sports complex like a baseball or football stadium, or even a arena.


I've always felt that the southeast intersection of highways 183E and 290E would be an excellent spot. Right now it's completely undeveloped. That area is also kind of sloped upwards into a hill, so a stadium right there would be quite noticeable from a distance and a bit 'majestic'. So with easy access to 2 major highways, undeveloped land, fair proximity to downtown and the airport, it would be an ideal spot. I wish I had a couple billion dollars lying around, I would just buy that land and build a stadium right now. Sooner or later Austin will need it. I would assume that someday Austin will get a pro sports team.

[Myomi]

I noticed this a few days ago but forgot to post about it, but you can now clearly see "The Ashton" or whatever it is being called now poking up from behind 100 Congress when looking from down the east side of Riverside. It's pretty incredible to think that another major addition to the Austin skyline is so close to topping out.

[austex]

A friend asked, "How many residential units are under construction downtown right now?" So I did some math and came up with these figures;

2738 vertical feet
1252 residential units
250 hotel rooms
236 floors
6 buildings: [Austonian, W, Spring, Ashton, 4 Seasons, Legacy]

And this does not count the recently opened 360, Monarch and Shore. Amazing figures for such a small city. Do these numbers look right guys?

[KevinFromTexas]

21Rio also, though it's not technically in downtown. It'll still add to the central skyline.

[shanny]

austex, the fact that austin is the 16th largest city in the country means we arent a small college town anymore.

however, our skyline leads outsiders to believe we are smaller than we actually are (for now).

[Myomi]

austex, the fact that austin is the 16th largest city in the country means we arent a small college town anymore.

however, our skyline leads outsiders to believe we are smaller than we actually are (for now).

When looking at population rankings, I find that pure population rankings, which look at just the population of the city limits, very misleading. I think to truly rank cities by size, you have to look at Metropolitan Statistical Area (MSA) which takes into account suburbs and surrounding areas which encompass the entire scope of a metropolitan area. When looking at MSA's, Austin is still a smaller city, ranked around 37th. Not a small college town, but still a small city. I actually think the skyline matches the size pretty well. If anything, I think, especially with all that is coming down the pipeline, that our skyline will be much bigger than what our size would lead you to believe.

On a side note, it's actually kind of amusing whenever it is suggested that Austin skyline is approaching the scale of Dallas or Houston considering they are 4th and 6th in MSA rankings.

[crewer]

6 buildings: [Austonian, W, Spring, Ashton, 4 Seasons, Legacy]

What's the Ashton? I thought that was a building in Dallas. Did they change the name of the Altavida?

Also, where does the 360 stand in terms of 100% completion? Are quite a few units occupied now?

Sorry for the lame questions. I'm a bit out of touch here in Bohemianville, er, Asheville.

[austex]

For a metro area with 1.5 million in population, Austin is exploding in residential highrise development. Even Charlotte at 1.6 million, which has experienced as much population growth as Austin, has only 126 floors of residential highrise under construction in the entire city. That is in 4 buildings. My amazement is at the total amount of new units/buildings in development at one time. Austin is in the Big League of MSA's when looking at the number of units/buildings under construction.

I moved here 15 years ago from a mega metro because Austin was a much smaller and slower paced city. Every Sunday my weekly bike ride around "town" greets me with more amazement. We are truly in a boom; our downtown transformed before our eyes. It is hard for this 45 y.o. skyscraper junkie to comprehend such a mass perching of cranes in my chosen city. And if the migration continues….wow!

[priller]

What's the Ashton? I thought that was a building in Dallas. Did they change the name of the Altavida?

Not officially yet, but that's based on pretty solid info.

[DTAustin]

What's the Ashton? I thought that was a building in Dallas. Did they change the name of the Altavida?

Also, where does the 360 stand in terms of 100% completion? Are quite a few units occupied now?

Sorry for the lame questions. I'm a bit out of touch here in Bohemianville, er, Asheville.

360 is closing somewhere around the 20th floor this week. It will take until September for all buyers to close and move in. The finish out of the upper floors is still happening.

[Jdawgboy]

Even 37th largest metro is not too bad I mean at least we are in the top 50. And honestly either way you look at it, Austin is Ranked as the 16th largest City population inside the city limits, nearly tied with San Fransisco at 15. That is nothing to balk at at all. Many cities who are ranked higher in metro population are smaller than Austin by itself. That alone is impressive considering Austin was not even in the top 50 in 1980. Also shows that instead of more people living in the suburbs rather than the core city, more people overall are living inside the city limits of Austin.

[Aiphanes]

Even 37th largest metro is not too bad I mean at least we are in the top 50. And honestly either way you look at it, Austin is Ranked as the 16th largest City population inside the city limits, nearly tied with San Fransisco at 15. That is nothing to balk at at all. Many cities who are ranked higher in metro population are smaller than Austin by itself. That alone is impressive considering Austin was not even in the top 50 in 1980. Also shows that instead of more people living in the suburbs rather than the core city, more people overall are living inside the city limits of Austin.

Yep it is pretty impressive. I remember back in 1986 when I first moved to Austin and it was much smaller than it was today no traffic issues a awesome oasis city..

Actually I just check wikipedia and its 700K for the city and 1.6 million for the metro..

1.6 million people in the Austin metro area is nothing to balk at..

San antonio is only 1.3 million for the city and almost 2 million for the metro area...

That means between Austin and San Antonio there are 3.6 million people.

The Dallas\Fort Worth metro plex is 6.1 million..

Austin is bigger than Ft Worth and San Antono is bigger than Dallas...(just city not metro)

There is no reason why Austin and San Antonio can be a metroplex....it may take years...like 20...but it could happen.

The San Austin Metroplex....just a thought..

[Northcrossed]

Also shows that instead of more people living in the suburbs rather than the core city, more people overall are living inside the city limits of Austin.

Austin isn't land-locked and can annex surrounding areas before they become politically viable, which also expands the ETJ to allow future land grabs. A lesson learned from Dallas' problem.

[austex]

Austin isn't land-locked and can annex surrounding areas before they become politically viable, which also expands the ETJ to allow future land grabs. A lesson learned from Dallas' problem.

Also, many folk do not understand that states define how their cities are allowed to expand. Many states do not allow annexation across “township” lines which do not exist in Texas. Many states restrict annexation to within county lines also. Some states have annexation boards that set the geographic area a city can annex.

Existing large cities in Texas have the ability to annex to the state border if they can provide services, and do not over run other cities ETJ’s. These are the only major limits in Texas. This is partly why Texas had 6 of the nation’s 20 “most populated” cities in the last census, but only 2 of its “most populated” metro areas. Austin, like other large Texas cities, is able to become geographically huge swallowing more population as it expands. Austin is 16 in city population and about 37 for the entire MSA.

Let’s not forget however, the Texas Legislature has not historically liked its capital city. It needs to be noted that Austin has been forced by state law to negotiate with its surrounding cities, towns and villages and give up much of its ETJ. No other city in Texas has to negotiate like Austin was legislated to do.:(

[KevinFromTexas]

Also, many folk do not understand that states define how their cities are allowed to expand. Many states do not allow annexation across “township” lines which do not exist in Texas. Many states restrict annexation to within county lines also. Some states have annexation boards that set the geographic area a city can annex.

alexjon may know better about this than I do, but Portland has a similar law. I believe there, developers are required to "build out" undeveloped land within the city up to a certain density standard before more land can be opened up for more development.

[Myomi]

21Rio also, though it's not technically in downtown. It'll still add to the central skyline.

But...If you are going to count 21Rio, you have to count the dozens of floors and hundreds of rooms that are opening up all across West Campus.

[MichaelB]

Speaking of west campus.... another crane went up on MLK just west of Guadalupe. Not sure what it is. Think it is just a garage.... anyone know?

[KevinFromTexas]

But...If you are going to count 21Rio, you have to count the dozens of floors and hundreds of rooms that are opening up all across West Campus.

I was only considering highrises.

[Northcrossed]

http://www.statesman.com/blogs/content/shared-gen/blogs/austin/watch/entries/2008/07/08/construction_stopped_but_stree.html

...
The developers of La Vista on Lavaca, a luxury condominium and office project, took out a permit with the City of Austin on April 20, 2007, to close the block of 17th Street between Lavaca and Colorado streets during construction, said Jason Redfern, manager of the Right of Way Management Division in the city’s Watershed Protection and Development Review Department.

The developers paid $99,900 to the city to keep the street closed for six months, Redfern said. The permit was to have been renewed for the same fee every six months until construction was completed.

The developers renewed their street permit in November 2007 but failed to renew it in April, Redfern said.
...

[Myomi]

I was only considering highrises.

I figured, but I only said that in reference to the original post which was talking about the total amount of building around downtown and how it's a lot for a city like Austin. When you think about the large amount of housing going up in West campus too, then the amount of consturction happening near downtown is really quite amazing. :yes:

[ivanwolf]

But...If you are going to count 21Rio, you have to count the dozens of floors and hundreds of rooms that are opening up all across West Campus.

Here is what 21 Rio looks like today.
http://img519.imageshack.us/img519/5729/20080709213433001vy2.jpg

http://img519.imageshack.us/img519/6112/20080709213433000fj8.jpg


Here is a view from the Monarch on the 9th floor from Sunday.
SCROLL>>>>>>
http://img75.imageshack.us/img75/8692/monarchpanoramacrophm4.jpg


Also speaking of the addition of another crane, this is the one on MLK going up today. I remember it being a parking garage, but do not remember if its got retail on the ground floor, with frontage on MLK I would think so.
http://img133.imageshack.us/img133/2253/20080709213433002ya7.jpg

Sorry its from the cell phone but these give you some detail of the projects.

[Raining Inside]

It's nice to see pics of the campus area. That area is booming, but it doesn't get the attention it deserves because of all the construction activity downtown.

[priller]

Hey, nice pano from the Monarch! Good view of the Spring from there.

[nickxter]

I'm sorry to break the sequence.. but has anyone heard anything about the Kimpton hotel (Hotel Van Zandt)? I keep getting mixed reviews on the project and I've always said that this down town needs more hotels- ESPECIALLY with this population boom

[austex]

I'm sorry to break the sequence.. but has anyone heard anything about the Kimpton hotel (Hotel Van Zandt)? I keep getting mixed reviews on the project and I've always said that this down town needs more hotels- ESPECIALLY with this population boom

What do you mean by "mixed reviews". If you have heard anything recently please let us know. I have hear nothing for months now.

[priller]

A few Spring and Gables Park Plaza photos from today.


Phase I of the Gables construction (the 8-floor apartment bldg) seems to be underway:

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3123/2655764901_45323ac733_o.jpg

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3239/2655764505_151d758880_o.jpg

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3222/2655763877_17668146de_o.jpg

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3117/2656593966_ec8e1b433e_o.jpg


The Spring is up to the 18th floor now:

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3160/2656595186_0a85eb2132_o.jpg

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3217/2656594768_f75d84358a_o.jpg

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3125/2655766175_e394def4c5_o.jpg

[hismasterplan]

I love the glass on Spring. I wish that tower was more centered downtown. That's the only thing I don't like about it. It would go great with the rest.

[Myomi]

The Spring is up to the 18th floor now:

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3160/2656595186_0a85eb2132_o.jpg



I noticed that Spring originally started counting their floor as the building started to rise, just as the Austonian is trying to do now. However, for whatever reason they seemed to have stopped at floor 9. Now, I don't know about you guys, but counting up to 9 floors seems pretty easy. I don't need signs for that. But I hope Austonian doesn't stop at 9 floors because I don't have enough toes and fingers to get all the way up to 56. I'm going to really need their help counting all the way to the top. :jester:

[Nightfeed]

I noticed that Spring originally started counting their floor as the building started to rise, just as the Austonian is trying to do now. However, for whatever reason they seemed to have stopped at floor 9. Now, I don't know about you guys, but counting up to 9 floors seems pretty easy. I don't need signs for that. But I hope Austonian doesn't stop at 9 floors because I don't have enough toes and fingers to get all the way up to 56. I'm going to really need their help counting all the way to the top. :jester:

I wasn't too thrilled with Spring at first (looked too small), but as they're putting the glass on I think it's turning out very sleek.

And as for Austonian... wow, 56 floors, I hadn't even thought about that until you just mentioned it. That's going to be one impressive looking building. By the time Austonian is done, is it safe to assume that Four Seasons and W will be complete? I know they're a bit behind, but they're also not as tall.

[shanny]

i stretched the rendering to make the condo tower 830'. this should be more realistic. :cheers:

http://pic15.picturetrail.com/VOL630/3951350/18290928/325087017.jpg

[Jdawgboy]

Now that looks sleek. The height finally gives it justice, I liked the design but again it seemed not to scale so it looked stubby. Now this rendering really makes it sleeker. Thanks for doing that shanny...

[hismasterplan]

i stretched the rendering to make the condo tower 830'. this should be more realistic. :cheers:

http://pic15.picturetrail.com/VOL630/3951350/18290928/325087017.jpg

Now hold on is that official? If so, wow.

[GoldenBoot]

Yes; and no... It's the rendering being passed around in capital investment request packets by a company promoting T. Stacy's parking garage.

I would assume that it is a very early rendering of the complex - and not necessarily meant to be construed as the overall final, or "official," rendering of the project.

[hismasterplan]

Well so far it's not far off from how I pictured it to look like. I'd be happy with that, but the only thing is the Bank Of America building would look too out of place.

[JGFrisco]

Guys, those are nice renderings, but in this market, if an 800' building gets erected, it will be a box, not some unusual shape.

Odd shapes and other (costly) unusual architectural details are important in an up market, where you want to differentiate your building and catch the eye of the public. But they cost a lot of money, and eat into the profitability of the project.

In a down market, they just don't get built. Investors want a return, and lenders question costly details like odd shapes. In Austin, if you are building an 800' building, you ARE unique, and you won't need unusual details to get attention. So if it gets built, most of the unusual stuff will go.

IF it gets built. I'm still not at all convinced it's a go, as it doesn't fit with the pattern of what is actually getting financing right now.

(same goes for 21c)

[priller]

By the time Austonian is done, is it safe to assume that Four Seasons and W will be complete? I know they're a bit behind, but they're also not as tall.

Four seasons probably will catch up, they're up to the 5th floor already. W probably not. It started a good 6 months later, plus has a lot more site prep than Austonian. I've noticed these buildings generally add about a floor a week once they get to the tower stage. 6 months would be about 24 floors. W is not that much shorter. But it will be close.

[hookem]

In a down market, they just don't get built. Investors want a return, and lenders question costly details like odd shapes. In Austin, if you are building an 800' building, you ARE unique, and you won't need unusual details to get attention. So if it gets built, most of the unusual stuff will go.

IF it gets built. I'm still not at all convinced it's a go, as it doesn't fit with the pattern of what is actually getting financing right now.

(same goes for 21c)
Isn't Frost's crown an expensive odd shape? Wasn't that built in a down market? I know the height adds a lot of expense... not holding my breath that this proposal will happen... but the wavy and/or twisting building style I have seen in a LOT of other proposals in other cities, even in this down market. It seems to be some kind of trend.

[shanny]

:previous: for example, the chicago spire

[Northcrossed]

http://www.bizjournals.com/austin/stories/2008/07/14/story1.html (story at link may have changed since posting)

Plan for Downtown Condo Dropped
Developer behind The Metropolitan files Ch. 11; condos would have been near Capitol

Austin Business Journal - by Jean Kwon ABJ Staff

A local developer has shelved plans for a $50 million luxury condo project in one of the first casualties of Austin's downtown condo boom.

The Metropolitan, a proposed mid-rise project two blocks from the Capitol first announced in February 2007, will no longer be built. Its developer, Mote Group Real Estate Partners LLC, filed for Chapter 11 bankruptcy June 30.

The condo's site, a surface parking lot at 311 E. 11th St., will be put up for sale, says Weldon Ponder, the attorney representing Mote Group in its bankruptcy.

Mote Group Principal Thomas Mote could not be reached for comment

[JGFrisco]

First off, Frost was completed prior to the current bear market. Second, while it has a crown, the building itself is still a box.

Boxes with crowns or spires aren't a problem. Odd-shaped floors and curves get to be expensive.

The Chicago Spire? An unusual building all the way around. But then again, it too has a uniform shape, so that there can be an economy of size.

[KevinFromTexas]

Isn't Frost's crown an expensive odd shape? Wasn't that built in a down market? I know the height adds a lot of expense... not holding my breath that this proposal will happen... but the wavy and/or twisting building style I have seen in a LOT of other proposals in other cities, even in this down market. It seems to be some kind of trend.

I read in one of the Austin American-Statesman articles that came out just after the building wrapped up construction, that the crown's design and materials cost just over one million dollars.

[hookem]

I read in one of the Austin American-Statesman articles that came out just after the building wrapped up construction, that the crown's design and materials cost just over one million dollars.

Ah, interesting. On something like a $50 million or so building (to construct), yeah, that's not much expense. I'd say that was the best $1M spent in DT Austin. Every building should spend that much if it can get a distinctive architectural feature like that!

But point taken, JGFrisco and Kevin. Not really expensive to build a box building with a crown.

[JGFrisco]

I guess I'm not being very clear...but let me try something different. The cost of an odd-shaped building is much more than that of a crown or spire.

With a large multi-story building, you get advantages of scale by making the stories the same. It makes construction faster, simpler, and easier. Plus, when you start making odd shapes and changing floor shapes, you start affecting your leasable or salable space, and you start creating black holes, meaning spaces that are difficult or impossible to lease.

So odd shapes would cost far more, both in terms of construction and in terms of expected income, and are much harder to sell to a lender.

The Chicago Spire is odd...but if you will look, they have lost the tapered look, and instead will just have a tall cylinder that is the same size on each floor. So they will get the economy of scale.

PS Architects can get away with making the building look different with changing elevations by using setbacks. This changes the look, but not the overall design and layout. Sears Tower and Burj Dubai have this.

[Apple][]

Two points/questions here ...

1) I was looking at various floor plans and while most treat indoor and outdoor space separately, I noticed that Spring did not. Take a look at this http://www.springaustin.com/pdf/Spring_Unit_C.pdf does anyone know if the total listed includes outdoor and indoor, or if it's indoor only?

2) In looking at the costs of steel and other building materials (see: http://www.steelonthenet.com/commodity_prices.html) I'm wondering how it how this will effect Tremmel's plan for the water treatment site. I don't know exactly when 360 locked in building material prices, but I imagine it was in 2006. Based on prices at that time the lowest price for a finished unit worked out to be $270 sqft. The price of steel, glass and gas have doubled since and given that these commodities make up say 20% of the cost of the building (I just made that up, it may be more). You're looking at an instant 20% increase in construction costs. So, I would imagine that future construction proposals will either see the size of a one bedroom move to 500 sqft or see the price go up by 20%. 700 sqft for a one bedroom is small enough, will people really pay the necessary price premium to live downtown and scale their lives into 500 sqft of space?

Just eliciting opinions, reactions and other view points. For disclosure, I'm currently (and will continue to be) a resident of downtown Austin.

[GoldenBoot]

I guess I'm not being very clear...but let me try something different. The cost of an odd-shaped building is much more than that of a crown or spire.

With a large multi-story building, you get advantages of scale by making the stories the same. It makes construction faster, simpler, and easier. Plus, when you start making odd shapes and changing floor shapes, you start affecting your leasable or salable space, and you start creating black holes, meaning spaces that are difficult or impossible to lease.

So odd shapes would cost far more, both in terms of construction and in terms of expected income, and are much harder to sell to a lender.

The Chicago Spire is odd...but if you will look, they have lost the tapered look, and instead will just have a tall cylinder that is the same size on each floor. So they will get the economy of scale.

PS Architects can get away with making the building look different with changing elevations by using setbacks. This changes the look, but not the overall design and layout. Sears Tower and Burj Dubai have this.


All of this bickering is for not...T.Stacy won't be seeking financial support for the office tower (the ~32-story building) for another 18-24 months. The hotel/condo tower won't need financing in place for another 2-3 years; at least. Additionally, I don't think anyone is going to be constructing anything new, in Austin, in the near-term. Costs, as you have mentioned, has skyrocketed and developers need to re-analyze their numbers and possibly make necessary adjustments to hit their margins.

A large number of developers in Austin (and the country, for that matter) are waiting until after the general election in November to make judgments on how to proceed with their developments (e.g., if Barak is elected, he may very well increase the taxes on capital gains which will have a huge affect on America's real estate industry).

[priller]

Latest Austonian pics. They're working on the 10th floor now, which is the top of the pedestal and also the pool deck, so I'm sure there's lots of extra tasks to do here.

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3126/2664994771_241b04d9ea_o.jpg

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3272/2665818784_1da04f757e_o.jpg


You can see in the close-up they're already working on the core for the 10th floor. You can also see the notched support walls where the pool will go.

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3189/2665819374_730fe20f85_o.jpg

The latest Austonian construction report said the 10th floor concrete would be poured in 3 sections -- northwest, southwest, then east. It said this was done to facilitate the starting of the tower portion. Go tower!

[priller]

Additionally, I don't think anyone is going to be constructing anything new, in Austin, in the near-term. Costs, as you have mentioned, has skyrocketed and developers need to re-analyze their numbers and possibly make necessary adjustments to hit their margins.

Grim outlook, but I suppose it's not surprising. It will be interesting to see what happens with the Ovation project, which is on the more "affordable" end of new condo prices. If costs are too high, will they raise unit prices or simply not build? And what about those who are just getting started (like W)? How are they adjusting?

(e.g., if Barak is elected, he may very well increase the taxes on capital gains which will have a huge affect on America's real estate industry).

The president, of course, cannot himself raise taxes. Congress would have to do that. But yes, I believe Obama has said he favors raising it from 15% to 20-25%.

[MichaelB]

Cycle..... it's all a cycle. Short term vs long term. Yes, we will always have slow downs.... even recessions. And then.... Ka boom! Another growth spurt.
And yes, at some point everyone, even corporations, will have to pay up to get us out of the debt/mess we are in. Guess that just goes in the calculations.

Perhaps it will make speculative developers more cautious. I am happy with our growth being more long term. Perhaps it means each project built will be more thought out and have to be more competitive in its design. I would be OK with Novare not putting up a near copy of 360. Pacing may serve us better in the long run.

[Xeelee]

looks really nice. :)

[GoldenBoot]

...The president, of course, cannot himself raise taxes. Congress would have to do that. But yes, I believe Obama has said he favors raising it from 15% to 20-25%.

Obviously. But, if you have a democrat as president with a democrat majority in both the house and senate; pretty much if the president wants to do or implement something, congress will ratify it.

GENERALLY SPEAKING:
The present cap. gains rates are based on the investment being a short-term (held for less than one year) or long-term (held for 366 of more days). Short-term capital gains rates are the same as your current income tax bracket rate, which can be as high as 35% (based on 2007 returns).

Currently, long-term capital gains may be taxed at 5%, 15%, 25% or 28%, or a combination of rates.

The long-term capital gain tax generally is much lower than what you pay on your regular income. In fact, it is a taxpayer's income level that generally determines which capital gains rate is owed. If your profit pushes you into a higher bracket, you could possibly be taxed at a combination of rates.

It has been assumed that if Barak is elected, we could see these rates increase dramatically – affecting the entire real estate industry!!!

[GoldenBoot]

Grim outlook, but I suppose it's not surprising. It will be interesting to see what happens with the Ovation project, which is on the more "affordable" end of new condo prices...

Ovation's site plan has expired and I'm not aware of a resubmittal at this time. Novare/Andrew's Urban probably will not even think about submitting a site plan for their post office site until Ovation gets underway - if ever. Additionally, they've, as far as I know, have pulled their plans on the TWELVE Domain project - at least for the short-term.

Yes, this new may be "grim" to some. But, it's the reality we're all living in and Austin is fairing much better than most of the country. Nonetheless, we are not immune to the affects of the falling dollar and weakening economy.

If costs are too high, will they raise unit prices or simply not build? And what about those who are just getting started (like W)? How are they adjusting?

They will probably do a number of things...re-design; see if raising the prices will still fit within their marketing strategy; to name just two. The biggest question, how can they proceed and still sell the number of units to meet their (and their capital partners') financial target margins. If not, then they may postpone or cancel a specific project.

Some of the projects we see under construction today have secured enough interim construction financing and pre-sale commitments to move forward with their respective developments. Also, these projects may have been lucky enough to lock-in pricing on materials a year or two ago.

[priller]

Thanks again for the info, GB! I wondered if material prices were contracted and fixed ahead of time. Makes sense to do so. Sucks for the material providers. Do they try to tack on "transportation surcharges" or anything like that?

[Apple][]

Thanks again for the info, GB! I wondered if material prices were contracted and fixed ahead of time. Makes sense to do so. Sucks for the material providers. Do they try to tack on "transportation surcharges" or anything like that?

As much as 80% of the project costs are locked in before construction even starts. In the event prices spike, the commodity provider may choose (threaten) to enter into a legal battle rather than honor the existing contract. At that point the developer may be forced to pony up some additional amount on the pre-negotiated rates rather than delay construction or endure legal fees. I've heard this has already happened on one project.

Steel prices have increased so much that many developers would be better off reselling the steel contract than continuing with a risky construction project!

[StoOgE]

Actually long term CGT is currently only two rates 15% or 5% for individuals.

[StoOgE]

GB there are only two individual LTCG rates, 5% and 15%.

The issue that dems have is that the number of people taking advantage of 5% is near zero. Most people in the lowest two tax brackets have almost all of their savings in tax advantages accounts that dont have anything that takes advantage of the lower LTCG tax.

While the people in the upper end of the tax bracket pay very little in income tax (proportionaly to investments) but have most of their money in investments that can take advantage of the lower tax bracket.

There is basically one group of people that can tax advantage of the lower LTCG tax and its essentially created a situation where people who *should* be in the highest tax brackets are paying less of a % of their income than people who *should* be paying less.

Like Warren Buffets challenge, he will give a million dollars to any CEO that can prove they pay a higher % of their income in taxes than their secretary does. The lower longterm CGT has worked disproportionatly for one group of people.

[priller]

Another Austonian construction report came online today. These things are coming fast lately. Here's the details


• Level 10 northwest corner scheduled to pour on July 15, 2008
• Level 10 southwest corner scheduled to pour July 21, 2008
• Level 10 east side including pool structure to begin forming operations on July 16, 2008
• Level 10 east side scheduled to pour on July 25, 2008
• Level 11 (the first level of the residential tower) to begin forming operations on July 22, 2008
• Man and material hoist installation for use on levels 1 to 10 complete
• Hoist operation for levels 1 to 7 will begin on July 15, 2008
• Additional man and material hoists will be added during the construction of the residential tower
• Initial cabinetry order for levels 11 to 24 to be sent to Scavolini in Pesaro, Italy on July 15, 2008
• Window wall fabrication for residential tower in progress
• Precast concrete panels for levels 3 to 10 in fabrication
• Stone for levels 1 to 3 ordered from Portugal
• Block masonry completed thru level 3 with level 4 starting July 14, 2008
• Mechanical, electrical, chilled water and plumbing rough-in continues at all levels
• Site utilities along Second Street 90% complete
• Galvanized structural steel for streetscape canopies delivered to site
• Individual homeowner meetings continue
• Scheduled site inspections conducted this week by our insurance carriers
• 3rd party crane inspections conducted by Balfour Beatty this week

[detmi7mile]

I agree its on point

[zx14]

when i come visit on the last couple days of this month the austonian will be starting on the 11th floor. when i come back in the middle of april what floor will it be on? MY guess is working in the 43rd floor. What about the others at that time mid april 09.

[GoldenBoot]

GB there are only two individual LTCG rates, 5% and 15%.

Actually, no...

25-percent rate
This rate applies to part of the gain from selling real estate that depreciated. Basically, this keeps you from getting a double tax break. The Internal Revenue Service first wants to recapture some of the tax breaks you've been getting via depreciation throughout the years. You'll have to complete the work sheet in the instructions for Schedule D to figure your gain (and tax rate) for this asset, known as Section 1250 property. More details on this type of holding and its taxation are available in chapter three of IRS Publication 544, Sales and other Dispositions of Assets (this publication applies to 2006 returns, the IRS has yet to update it for 2007).


28-percent rate
Two categories of capital gains are subject to this rate: small business stock and collectibles.

If you realized a gain from qualified small business stock that you held more than five years, you generally can exclude one-half of your gain from income. The remainder is taxed at a 28-percent rate. If you've already hired a tax professional to help you sort out the 25-percent rate on depreciable property, she can help you figure this tax, too. Or you can get the specifics on gains on qualified small business stock in chapter 4 of IRS Publication 550, Investment Income and Expenses.

If your gains came from collectibles rather than a business sale, you'll still pay the 28-percent rate. This includes proceeds from the sale of a work of art, antiques, gems, stamps, coins, precious metals and even pricey wine or brandy collections.

*From BankRate.com (http://www.bankrate.com/brm/itax/tips/20010305a.asp?caret=1d)*

[priller]

A few shots from today. First is the big hole that is the W. You can see the tractor with the big roller on it, so I assume they must be getting near the bottom if they're rolling it flat now.

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3186/2676036230_1951106fb6_o.jpg

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3073/2676036636_753ef2b2f9_o.jpg


Austonian pedestal:

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3022/2676037376_e89710be03_o.jpg


Spring:

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3104/2675220245_4ea228508b_o.jpg

Spring is sporting big signage now, too:

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3211/2675220539_1ba6915656_o.jpg

[zx14]

Just got back from cedar point. Wow that is some amazing stuff. With the demise of Astroworld and given Austins economy could we support a quality roller coaster amusement park? Fiesta texas is near but it just will not that great. We need a giga coaster and maybe even a strata coaster which is 300 or 400 feet tall.

[StoOgE]

Actually, no...

25-percent rate
This rate applies to part of the gain from selling real estate that depreciated. Basically, this keeps you from getting a double tax break. The Internal Revenue Service first wants to recapture some of the tax breaks you've been getting via depreciation throughout the years. You'll have to complete the work sheet in the instructions for Schedule D to figure your gain (and tax rate) for this asset, known as Section 1250 property. More details on this type of holding and its taxation are available in chapter three of IRS Publication 544, Sales and other Dispositions of Assets (this publication applies to 2006 returns, the IRS has yet to update it for 2007).


28-percent rate
Two categories of capital gains are subject to this rate: small business stock and collectibles.

If you realized a gain from qualified small business stock that you held more than five years, you generally can exclude one-half of your gain from income. The remainder is taxed at a 28-percent rate. If you've already hired a tax professional to help you sort out the 25-percent rate on depreciable property, she can help you figure this tax, too. Or you can get the specifics on gains on qualified small business stock in chapter 4 of IRS Publication 550, Investment Income and Expenses.

If your gains came from collectibles rather than a business sale, you'll still pay the 28-percent rate. This includes proceeds from the sale of a work of art, antiques, gems, stamps, coins, precious metals and even pricey wine or brandy collections.

*From BankRate.com (http://www.bankrate.com/brm/itax/tips/20010305a.asp?caret=1d)*

I didnt know that. I'm not in real estate, I'm in investments, so the two we deal with are 5 and 15.

[StoOgE]

Just got back from cedar point. Wow that is some amazing stuff. With the demise of Astroworld and given Austins economy could we support a quality roller coaster amusement park? Fiesta texas is near but it just will not that great. We need a giga coaster and maybe even a strata coaster which is 300 or 400 feet tall.

While Cedar Park does have alot of nice rides, just like the mega Six Flags (LA, Jersey) its really dirty and just not a fun place to be. I enjoy the rides, but I much prefer parks like Bush Gardens that are clean and well themed. Maybe I am just old and lame.

As far as Austin getting a theme park.. I always wanted us to get one, and we had a shot at Sea World back in the day.. but with San Antonio having two of them ,and Fiesta Texas (while having pretty lame rollercoasters other than Superman) is a pretty big one, I dont see it happening anytime soon.

I wouldnt mind a smaller park like a Kennywood in Pittsburgh, something with charachter and not a giant corporate theme park built on a parking lot. A park that is more like an old school boardwalk (well, in Kennywoods case its a hundred years old so it is an old school boardwalk) with a handfull of small (but good) rides.

Also, who is the smart guy that decided to give Fiesta Texas a "new" ride this year that is the exact same ride already at Seaworld and Six Flags in dallas (well, most six flags really?).

[Northcrossed]

This site (http://walkscore.com) calculates the walkability for any address based upon the availability of ammenities within walking distance. It rates 200 Congress, to pick an arbitrary address, as a "Walkers' Paradise".