[Riise]

It happened in Ontario on the 401 a few years ago, some guys drove side by side at exactly 100 (the speed limit) for a while. A huge line of cars built up, and when the guys pulled off, cops arrested them - never mind just giving them a ticket.

Absolutely brilliant! I wish I could see that on youtube.

Uh, I think some of you fail to realize that in alot of places freight is shipped overnight when passenger service is finished. I believe thats the most common practice in Europe. I don't think beyond the main HST corridors that dedicated tracks exist so its feasible and probably fiscally prudent to develop HST that uses existing and perhaps slightly upgraded rail lines and rights of way.

We talked about it briefly on the last page:

Actually, I'm pretty sure freight is not high-speed yet, with the exception of mail. I've started threads about the possibility of high-speed freight here and at SSC and aside from TGV La Poste nobody could provide any current examples of it. However, I do believe that some high-speed rail ROWs are used for freight during the night.

[Policy Wonk]

Uh, I think some of you fail to realize that in alot of places freight is shipped overnight when passenger service is finished.

yeah, because CP Rail will be all in favour of a proposal that will see their profitable rail traffic backed up to Lethbridge (Albersyde Sub.) and Medicine Hat (Brooks Sub.) and Westaskwin Sub. for 18 hours at a time.

And naturally every other rail opperator in North America will be happy to adjust their sched to accomodate the embargo.

Anything that would monopolize the CPR line between Calgary and Edmonton will be unacceptable, the only other reasonable track is the CN Three Hills Sub. and Camrose Sub and that track is in horrible condition.

[Rise_of_the_West]

I think if this project moves forward, it should stick to proven electric HSR technology, like the ICE or TGV, rather then going for jet-train technology.

One advantage of using an existing trainset is that the track layout can be better designed for peak efficency and speed for the particular train, since the charateristics of these trains are already understood. If the jet-train was to be used, alot more engineering work would have to be put into the track to ensure an efficent ride, where as with the ICE/TGV, we could copy and past the best elements of the tracks in europe to fit the alberta route.

Another advantage of using ICE/TGV trains is that we can greatly reduce the dreaded GHG produce if wind power is used to fuel it like the c-train. This may improve operating costs down the line when gas hits 3.00/L (Lets hope not).

Just my two cents.

[canucklehead2]

I think the ICE/TGV especially electrically powered would require many more upgrades to the track network than say a Jet Train or Turbotrain, which would also mean ALOT more money.

BTW, does anyone know the extent of the Jet Train test run that took place a few years ago? Did they try and operate it at any degree of high speed? Anyone have pics? I'd be curious to know how fast trains could run on the Edm-Cgy line now....

[Rise_of_the_West]

True, thats a good point. Using existing infrastructure would save alot of money, however the track is not designed for HSR, and major upgrades would have to be done to it anyway for safety reasons. I'm not convicned that this would be any cheaper then building a dedicated new HSR line.

I just think sticking to proven technology is a way of avoiding costly unforseen problems, which would be the case with unproven technology like the jet train.

Also another question: How much freight rail traffic currently utilizes the Calgary-Edmonton line?

[Xelebes]

I usually see about 2 or 3 trains a day, I think. Maybe I'm overshooting my estimate a bit.

[Edmonchuck]

try UNDERESTIMATING...;)

Folks, with the anticipated increase in freight traffic, HSR will have to get its own track. Sorry.

[Xelebes]

So about 400-500 cars a day on that track? Or even more?

[Rise_of_the_West]

try UNDERESTIMATING...;)

Folks, with the anticipated increase in freight traffic, HSR will have to get its own track. Sorry.

Thats what i thought, particularly with the boom now in full swing. The QEII can't handle that amount of truck traffic so it may start switching to rail, leaving little room for profitable HSR traffic on the CPR line.

[KrisYYC]

Anybody catch the news tonight? It appears The Conference Board of Canada says projects like this should be green lighted and Stelmach agreed saying that purchasing land for such a project should start now. Let's hope the feds can pony up some money, but I still think rapid expansion of LRT should coincide with any HSR development.

[m0nkyman]

I'm already drafting a letter that excoriates people who would spend money on something that won't be needed until there are at least ten million people in the corridor, and are neglecting basic cultural needs like a museum....

[You Need A Thneed]

^ By the time this thing would be done, the LRT system expansions in both cities would be well ahead of now, and a museum probobly would be built as well.

Tranportation of goods and people is a basic economic need, not that it's necessarily more important then cultural needs, but one can't say that a good tranportation network isn't important. HSR isn't necessarily the best transportation solution, either. I'm no expert.

HSR would have to use it's own track. Sharing track with existing freight lines would eliminate the "high-speed," making the effort pointless - a huge white elephant. Perhaps they could negotiate with the rail companies to use some of their right of way, that could save a bunch of money.

[Claeren]

Extensive LRT expansion in Calgary (especially) and Edmonton is needed FAR FAR FAR more than any high speed train.


The only part of this i do support is if it is about simply assembling a ROW corridor over say a 10-15 year period and THEN looking at it from there....



Claeren.

[feepa]

Extensive LRT expansion in Calgary (especially) and Edmonton is needed FAR FAR FAR more than any high speed train.


The only part of this i do support is if it is about simply assembling a ROW corridor over say a 10-15 year period and THEN looking at it from there....



Claeren.

The only problem I have with your post is the word especially.

I don't see how LRT expansion is needed any more especially then in Edmonton.
Both Cities especially need extensive LRT expansion.

[Boris2k7]

I'm already drafting a letter that excoriates people who would spend money on something that won't be needed until there are at least ten million people in the corridor, and are neglecting basic cultural needs like a museum....

Ten Million... such an arbitrary number. By the time the thing actually is finished there will be around 5 million people in the corridor, which should be more than enough to support the service.

The only difference is whether we start planning now for a service that starts in the 2020's or a decade from now for the 2030's. It's not like if they say that they are going to do it, they could start building it next year.

If we don't start planning now, we could have some serious problems when we do get around to it later.

[Claeren]

The only problem I have with your post is the word especially.

I don't see how LRT expansion is needed any more especially then in Edmonton.
Both Cities especially need extensive LRT expansion.

Calgary has a heavier/larger downtown work population that is the heaviest user of LRT compared to Edmonton that has a more dispersed work force.

With such a small focal point for service any expansion of Calgary LRT, in combination with limited road capacity and high prking costs, means a larger comparative increase in transit usership.

A new short line within cities limits in Calgary would have many times more effect then the same thing in Edmonton. Edmonton would have to run extensive lines further out to their satellites to see remotely similiar usage, which unfortunately would only have the effect of encouraging even more sprawl.



None of that is to say that Edmonton would not benefit from LRT too. I am just saying not as much as Calgary.


Claeren.

[Xelebes]

There are several nodes which need to be connected in Edmonton - west-end, NAIT, Northgate and Millwoods. These areas can't densify much until there is a superior form of public transportation. What there is now is feable and will lead to stunted density in the broader areas around the inner-city regions.

[woodytobiasjr]

Wasn't there a roomer floating around when Anne McLellan was deputy PM that the feds were thinking of partially funding this project?...

The only way I can see this project being feasible any time soon would be as part of an attempt for Calgary and Edmonton to join together and do something bold, like trying to put the World's Fair back on the map.

Vancouver had Expo 86, which was huge, and is now getting set for the winter games. Expo played a large role in raising Vancouver's profile and the Olympics should put them over the top.

Calgary had the 88 winter games and we are still remembered for it internationally. If we were to have the fastest train going in another 15 years (enough time to get enough local light rail in place) and pour a bunch of money into alternative energy technologies we could catch the attention of the world. The PR could result in a lot of future opportunities.

[ExcaliburKid]

HSR aka Worst Idea Ever. Im so with you m0nkeyman.

PS to you wide-eyed supporters, have fun renting a fu(king vehicle once you get to Calgary/Edmonton so you can get around the city.

Yeah, great idea. Totally makes sense. Where do I hand over my money?

[Boris2k7]

HSR aka Worst Idea Ever. Im so with you m0nkeyman.

PS to you wide-eyed supporters, have fun renting a fu(king vehicle once you get to Calgary/Edmonton so you can get around the city.

Yeah, great idea. Totally makes sense. Where do I hand over my money?

I don't have a car to get to Edmonton in the first place so it doesn't matter (and how is this different from currently taking the bus or plane?). If you are hinting that this would use up LRT money than that is the fault of your own city council.

Wide-eyed supporters my ass. If anything, naysayers have yet to come up with a more coherent argument than "there aren't enough people" based on anecdotal evidence from other countries and "it'll use up the LRT money" which is totally baseless as both Edmonton and Calgary are expanding transit and getting a huge tax transfer from the province already.

[ExcaliburKid]

No, its not about the LRT, I just think the province should fund something useful, like oh, I dont know, how about NAIT/SAIT? Its no wonder we are short of skilled labour, the province didnt even have the foresight to set aside funding for a desperately needed expansion at NAIT, yet they find it a priority to buy up land for a HSR? Now the school is stuck in its current state for at least 5 years, over-crowded and under-appreciated. Thanks new guy in charge, Im starting to take back my comment about giving him another chance in that poll about Stelmach.

[Boris2k7]

I'm familiar with the situation there, but I'm sure that the problems at NAIT are no different than any other institution in Alberta. We can all whine about money until there is none left. I just have a hard time believing that merely securing land, and the relatively tiny amount that would be spent on the over a large period of time, could possibly threaten the funding for anything else. The land costs what, a few million dollars at most? Even if the line costs 3 Billion, the province could make hundreds of billions of dollars in surplus before this thing is completed.

[ExcaliburKid]

^Fair enough, but I just dont see the point in spending it on something frivolous like high-speed rail. Sure it will benefit some, but I just cant justify it at this point in Albertas history. Why not build a stairway to heaven, the worlds largest magnifying glass, or the tallest building made out of popsicle sticks? (thank you, The Simpsons :D) Thats how much merit I think this proposal has.

[Xelebes]

^Fair enough, but I just dont see the point in spending it on something frivolous like high-speed rail. Sure it will benefit some, but I just cant justify it at this point in Albertas history. Why not build a stairway to heaven, the worlds largest magnifying glass, or the tallest building made out of popsicle sticks? (thank you, The Simpsons :D) Thats how much merit I think this proposal has.

APO and shadowing.

[queetz@home]

ALBERTA I High-speed rail link between Calgary and Edmonton considered

Calgary Herald

Saturday, May 19, 2007

CALGARY -- A multibillion-dollar, high-speed rail link between Calgary and Edmonton took a forceful step forward Thursday after Premier Ed Stelmach threw his support behind the idea.

"We have to. We have no choice. It will reduce emissions and it's visionary. Now is the time to prepare because we have the options available to purchase land," Stelmach said.

"It's part of planning for the future -- there's no doubt about it -- as the province of Alberta continues to grow and we see more people move to Edmonton, Calgary and, of course, the Highway 2 corridor," he added.

Stelmach's comments came in the wake of a report from the Conference Board of Canada calling on the federal and provincial governments to fully investigate the costs and benefits of high-speed rail links for both the Calgary-Edmonton corridor, and between Windsor, Ont., and Quebec City. In April, the province bought land in downtown Calgary and in Edmonton that could serve as train stations and the acquisition of property along the highway.

"I hope that our report does add weight to the argument," said Conference Board president Anne Golden. "Federal and provincial governments must seriously consider it."

The call by the Ottawa-based, privately funded economic think-tank adds momentum to the concept.
© The Vancouver Sun 2007

[queetz@home]

ALBERTA I High-speed rail link between Calgary and Edmonton considered

Calgary Herald

Saturday, May 19, 2007

CALGARY -- A multibillion-dollar, high-speed rail link between Calgary and Edmonton took a forceful step forward Thursday after Premier Ed Stelmach threw his support behind the idea.

"We have to. We have no choice. It will reduce emissions and it's visionary. Now is the time to prepare because we have the options available to purchase land," Stelmach said.

"It's part of planning for the future -- there's no doubt about it -- as the province of Alberta continues to grow and we see more people move to Edmonton, Calgary and, of course, the Highway 2 corridor," he added.

Stelmach's comments came in the wake of a report from the Conference Board of Canada calling on the federal and provincial governments to fully investigate the costs and benefits of high-speed rail links for both the Calgary-Edmonton corridor, and between Windsor, Ont., and Quebec City. In April, the province bought land in downtown Calgary and in Edmonton that could serve as train stations and the acquisition of property along the highway.

"I hope that our report does add weight to the argument," said Conference Board president Anne Golden. "Federal and provincial governments must seriously consider it."

The call by the Ottawa-based, privately funded economic think-tank adds momentum to the concept.
© The Vancouver Sun 2007

[YYCguys]

I am going to throw my hat into the ring here and say that I have to agree with KrisYYC's and Boris' statements. Poor planning is what got our province into its messes of the Klein years. Assembling land for the HSR is a wise move at this point. The actual building of the line and the equipment could go much faster at the point it's actually needed if all the ducks are lined up in a row first.

[Coldrsx]

HSR is ridiculous to consider right now...the population is simply NOT THERE. If anything id prefer better bus service and a 3rd lane on QE2 the entire way for passing.

[big W]

Nothing wrong with purchasing the land. But do not build it. I would also like to see this somehow link up with the VIA station. Maybe go underground at that point. Oh and we definatly need to expand both LRT systems before building this even is considered.

[KrisYYC]

Of course expanding LRT will be needed, but even if they started building the HSR next year the LRT lines could be built and open before the innagural run of the HSR anyway.

It would be proggessive action, actually planning and building for the long-term. Something that seems to be lacking severely in Canada.

Kris

[feepa]

HSR is ridiculous to consider right now...the population is simply NOT THERE. If anything id prefer better bus service and a 3rd lane on QE2 the entire way for passing.

typical Edmonton attitude, the demand is not there yet, so lets just wait until its there...
"We dont need to expand the LRT yet, the demand isn't there"
now the demand is there and everyone is like "shit, this should've been built years ago"

start buying the land. this process takes 10 years anyways
Start building the train 10 years after that I'm sure that project will take many years
In 25 years, this thing will be needed
in 50 years, we wont know what we did with out it.

once the price of gas hits $2-3/L we will be thankful that this is there I'm sure, and that we didnt add a third lane to a highway thats used less and less.

[big W]

I agree with feepa that there is nothing wrong with buying the land for a right of way. However I would hope that they do not build this thing until several years from now. Basically when Edmonton and Calgary have full LRT systems across the city and burbs. Plus it would be nice to have the system set up to actually hit the other population centres of Alberta. But maybe a commuter rail system to link up Banff, Lethbridge and Medicine Hat to Calgary and Jasper, Grande Prairie, Fort Mac and Lloydminster to Edmonton as part of this system.

[feepa]

There is no point connecting any other city then Edmonton and Calgary with HSR in Alberta. Not even in the next 50-100 years.
Fort mac might seem like a good idea, but you try find out the cost oh building HSR line through muskeg and what not up there. Its also almost twice the distance between edm-cal

Banff is already connected to Calgary ... and VIA really should run through Vancouver-Calgary-Winnipeg, and also Vancouver- Edmonton - Winnipeg (which connects Banff and Jasper respectively) theres no point to HSR on either line.
HSR or regular rail makes no sense to Grande Prairie or any other smaller communities in Alberta... just not the population to support it at all

[big W]

feepa note I said commuter rail so it would be regular passenger rail. I guess the line to Lloyd and Jasper are not needed as we do have Via but they do not properly service the corridor. I think it is needed at some point so we should set up right of ways. But the plan is not to build the system until years from now. We should establish the right of ways while we are at it.

[feepa]

See, there is no corridor to support. (lloyd-edm-jasper) Its not like the Windsor-Quebec City corridor where there is millions of people.
Even commuter rail and/or regular passenger service doesn't make that much sense
Maybe if we use the existing lines, we could have 1 train/day each way... but thats it.

Serving Edmonton and Calgary whose combined population should reach 3.5 Million in the next 50 years makes sense though...

[rapid_business]

typical Edmonton attitude, the demand is not there yet, so lets just wait until its there...
"We dont need to expand the LRT yet, the demand isn't there"
now the demand is there and everyone is like "shit, this should've been built years ago"

start buying the land. this process takes 10 years anyways
Start building the train 10 years after that I'm sure that project will take many years
In 25 years, this thing will be needed
in 50 years, we wont know what we did with out it.

once the price of gas hits $2-3/L we will be thankful that this is there I'm sure, and that we didnt add a third lane to a highway thats used less and less.

sounds pretty solid to me. Not now, but someday. It's fine to start taking small steps to get there eventually.

[Boris2k7]

Serving Edmonton and Calgary whose combined population should reach 3.5 Million in the next 50 years makes sense though...

Based on Malek's numbers (http://forum.skyscraperpage.com/showpost.php?p=2801098&postcount=132), if we maintained our average growth rates over the last 30 years, by 2036 the combined population between EDM and CGY would be 4.6 Million. Now, throw in Red Deer and it would be around 4.7-4.75 Million. By 50 years from now... 7-8 Million I would guess?

[e909]

Based on Malek's numbers (http://forum.skyscraperpage.com/showpost.php?p=2801098&postcount=132), if we maintained our average growth rates over the last 30 years, by 2036 the combined population between EDM and CGY would be 4.6 Million. Now, throw in Red Deer and it would be around 4.7-4.75 Million. By 50 years from now... 7-8 Million I would guess?
Would 7-8m be enough to sustain something like that? I think we should just expand QE2 to 6 lanes (3 each way), and then purchase some rail land for future use.

[rapid_business]

But is there even the need for the 3 lanes? Sure it gets busy, but can you wait 30 sec. for your 140 kph driving habits?

[feepa]

Would 7-8m be enough to sustain something like that? I think we should just expand QE2 to 6 lanes (3 each way), and then purchase some rail land for future use.
We dont need the worlds fastest train, something in the 200-240km/h range
could be electric or turbo diesel.
We dont need maglev or anything crazy

[Kevin_foster]

I would bet that it would be an empty train, most of the time.

Man, QE2 isn't THAT busy; and you can fly in 2 hours including arriving at the airport 30 minutes before. Alot of the traffic is industry/commercial anyways. I'd say easily over half of the traffic I see on that highway is commercial (hot shotters, truckers, movers, service trucks etc.).

Really, it would be a money suck that everyone would bitch about if the economy ever slows. It's not an asset that will benefit us sometime in the future. By the time we are able to support HSR between the 2 cities, trains will either be (1) outdated (2) need to be replaced with new cars etc.

Also, I'll bet in all the people that support it; only 10% would be able to afford the ticket prices - if not subsidized by the government.

We might as well start up an Alberta space program or something, or work on digging our own ocean, and having swimmable ocean front property in Edmonton & Calgary :P

I'm not propagating or promoting the use of more vehicles, but come on - Calgary and Edmonton are still relatively small cities. A better solution would be to work on getting people TO and FROM the airports from the cities. (IE - LRT to YEG). We could also work on better ways to move the traffic from the airport Parking lots to airplane seats faster.

It's almost as if we would be building this thing just to compensate for something. Kinda like driving a Hummer, when the 4 door sedan works just fine.

Hell, if there is that much of a problem, build a 1 lane bus lane with a speed limit of 180km/h :D

[Xelebes]

Hell, if there is that much of a problem, build a 1 lane bus lane with a speed limit of 180km/h :D

You know what? That would seriously kick ass.

[Boris2k7]

Man, you guys just aren't listening at all. It's like talking to a brick wall.

1) It won't be actually built for a long time, even if they start securing land now
2) The population in the corridor is going to be 2-3x as high by that time
3) The price of gas will be $2-3 a litre or possibly much higher
4) That also means your plane ticket is going to be insanely expensive, making the bus the only other option. Now, other than being pretty cheap, exactly how desirable is bus service? It's slower than a car, you don't get any privacy, the ride is bumpy and uncomfortable, and you have to transfer to other buses at large terminals when you get to the other end anyways
5) There is already a huge amount of funding coming online for CTrains that has nothing to do with the funding for HSR. Ever heard of this big Municipal Transfer that's being talked about?
6) It would be at least partially built, payed for, and operated by private industry. CPR has a particularly strong interest, though I would rather pay more and have a full HSR system rather than sharings ROW's
7) The technology will change over time, making it either cheaper or at least more efficient. 20-30 years is a long time

[m0nkyman]

in italics

1) It won't be actually built for a long time, even if they start securing land now
Yup.
2) The population in the corridor is going to be 2-3x as high by that time

Which still makes it significantly smaller than many areas that still can't justify HSR. Let me put it this way. In fifty years the Edmonton Calgary corridor will be approaching the current population of Toronto. So, where is the HSR between T.O and Montreal?
3) The price of gas will be $2-3 a litre or possibly much higher
Yes. That's probable.
4) That also means your plane ticket is going to be insanely expensive, making the bus the only other option. Now, other than being pretty cheap, exactly how desirable is bus service? It's slower than a car, you don't get any privacy, the ride is bumpy and uncomfortable, and you have to transfer to other buses at large terminals when you get to the other end anyways
If energy costs are that much higher, they're higher to go from point A to point B, no matter what. Every method is going to have higher costs, and ridership is going to go down. This is also a killer argument against HSR.

5) There is already a huge amount of funding coming online for CTrains that has nothing to do with the funding for HSR. Ever heard of this big Municipal Transfer that's being talked about?
And I can think of about a dozen better ways of spending it.

6) It would be at least partially built, payed for, and operated by private industry. CPR has a particularly strong interest, though I would rather pay more and have a full HSR system rather than sharings ROW's
If it's a money maker, then let private industry pay for it.

7) The technology will change over time, making it either cheaper or at least more efficient. 20-30 years is a long timeThe same will also apply to air and car travel.

[Kevin_foster]

Seriously I should take my separated 1 lane high speed bus lane to the drawing board. Hybrid buses that travel at 180 ... hmmm....

[Boris2k7]

Which still makes it significantly smaller than many areas that still can't justify HSR. Let me put it this way. In fifty years the Edmonton Calgary corridor will be approaching the current population of Toronto. So, where is the HSR between T.O and Montreal?

There is no evidence that they cannot justify HSR. The only evidence there is, is a lack of cooperation and political will.

If energy costs are that much higher, they're higher to go from point A to point B, no matter what. Every method is going to have higher costs, and ridership is going to go down. This is also a killer argument against HSR.

No, it isn't. Jet fuel costs a ton already. Cars are still gas guzzlers and even when becoming hybrids consume a lot of gas. In the future, this might change, but it is it likely that fuel cells will be cheaper to fill up than current engines? A train, at least, holds a large number of people and can run entirely electrically, which can be powered in a large number of ways.

And I can think of about a dozen better ways of spending it.

I sure can't. There is already a huge amount of money going elsewhere... hospitals, schools, highways, etc. No, more festivals in Edmonton aren't better than a train IMHO. My goal is to live without ever needing a car, and having a downtown-downtown connection is all part of the bigger picture.

If it's a money maker, then let private industry pay for it.

Wow, how thoughtful of you. Does private industry pay for your roads as well?

[m0nkyman]

There is no evidence that they cannot justify HSR. The only evidence there is, is a lack of cooperation and political will.
That lack of political will exists because the demand does not exist in any way shape or form, Conference Board of Canada reports paid for by SNC Lavalin and Bombardier notwithstanding.
No, it isn't. Jet fuel costs a ton already. Cars are still gas guzzlers and even when becoming hybrids consume a lot of gas. In the future, this might change, but it is it likely that fuel cells will be cheaper to fill up than current engines? A train, at least, holds a large number of people and can run entirely electrically, which can be powered in a large number of ways.
Sure run it on electrics. What percentage of North America's electrical grid is gas powered? If you think that the type of energy price shock we're talking about isn't going to reduce travel, you're nuts.
I sure can't. There is already a huge amount of money going elsewhere... hospitals, schools, highways, etc. No, more festivals in Edmonton aren't better than a train IMHO.
Housing. Addiction treatment. In-city Transit. Expansion of SAIT and NAIT. Galleries and Museums. All of which are underfunded in this province.
Wow, how thoughtful of you. Does private industry pay for your roads as well?
Toll roads paid for with private money are a rational option in many cases. Push VIA to start railway service on shared tracks, and see if demand exists. If the demand exists for standard rail, then decide whether to upgrade it. Much like how we start roads as dirt, then paved, then twinned.

[Xelebes]

Urm... doesn't the C-Train draw its power from windmills?

[mersar]

CTrain power is 'wind generated' meaning that the city buys equivalent credits for wind generation as what the CTrain uses. The actual power still comes off the grid as does every thing else.

[Xelebes]

Oh, I knew that.

[craner]

I want the HSR - mmmmm - and the third lane.
Seriously though - I agree now is the time to start planning the route and securing the land realizing HSR is likely not feasable with current population numbers. But lets be ready to go when it is and have enough time to do it right. I'd say at least 15-20 years off (but time flies by).:rolleyes:

[Wooster]

I have no reason to go to Edmonton though. ;)

:runaway:

[rapid_business]

I have no reason to go to Edmonton though. ;)

:runaway:

Yes you do.... So I can kick your ass. :dead:

EDIT: just kidding.... just pass over this one Mods...

[RiverRat]

I'm sure this has been discussed before, but I don't think we necessarily need high-speed rail service between the two cities. Even "normal" train service would be sufficient.

I am sitting on a train right now going from Ottawa to Montreal, and it is going about 150km/h for large stretches of the journey on what appears to be normal rail lines and equipment.

Is the extra 30-45 minutes of travel time really worth the extra $$$ for highspeed service. Or at least can't one preceed the other?

[ScottFromCalgary]

An article that goes into a little more detail...

http://www.canada.com/nationalpost/news/story.html?id=accc3c20-dc7b-4bef-805e-94cbe90572e7&k=58510

Premier backs train
High-speed link between Calgary and Edmonton worth studying, think-tank says

Geoffrey Scotton and Jason Fekete
Calgary Herald


Friday, May 18, 2007



CREDIT: Canadian Press, Herald Archive
A high-speed train could reduce highway traffic by 22 per cent, says Premier Ed Stelmach.


CREDIT: John Lucas/Edmonton Journal
CN Rail staff ready the Bombardier BBRX 2200 prototype locomotive for a run to Calgary at the VIA Rail station

A multibillion-dollar, high-speed rail link between Calgary and Edmonton took a forceful step forward Thursday after Premier Ed Stelmach threw his support behind the idea.

"We have to. We have no choice. It will reduce emissions and it's visionary. Now is the time to prepare because we have the options available to purchase land," Stelmach said.

"It's part of planning for the future -- there's no doubt about it -- as the province of Alberta continues to grow and we see more people move to Edmonton, Calgary and, of course, the Highway 2 corridor," he added.

Stelmach's comments came in the wake of a report from the Conference Board of Canada calling on the federal and provincial governments to fully investigate the costs and benefits of high-speed rail links for both the Calgary-Edmonton corridor, and between Windsor, Ont., and Quebec City.

In April, the province bought land in downtown Calgary and in Edmonton that could serve as train stations and the acquisition of property along the highway.

"I hope that our report does add weight to the argument," said Conference Board president Anne Golden. "Federal and provincial governments must seriously consider it."

The call by the Ottawa-based, privately funded economic think-tank adds momentum to the concept, which has been discussed for years but is now the subject of a $1-million market assessment study by the Alberta government, due in July. It's the latest in a series of examinations that have indicated the concept has merit.

"It's certainly a new voice. There's already a lot of attention on the idea here in Alberta," said Jerry Bellikka, spokesman for Infrastructure and Transportation Minister Luke Ouellette, of the Conference Board report.

"You have to look at things on a business case and that's going to involve a lot of factors: whether or not there's a market for it, what the cost would be, if we have the population to support it," Bellikka said, adding the government has no plans beyond its current market study.

"We're really taking this one step at a time," he said.

While a rail link along the Queen Elizabeth 2 Highway would seem like the most logical right-of-way, Stelmach said the government has also eyed Highway 21, which runs parallel to the QE2 about 50 kilometres to the east. Stelmach, a former transportation minister, said past studies have indicated the train could reduce vehicle traffic by 22 per cent.

In Ottawa, an official in Transport Minister Lawrence Cannon's office said the federal government's upcoming infrastructure plan might provide some funding for a feasibility study.

"The bottom line . . . is that in the budget we have announced $33 billion for infrastructure. We are currently finalizing our infrastructure plan, we are discussing with the partners, we are identifying our priorities, assessing projects," said Natalie Safarian, Cannon's press secretary. "We will be presenting our infrastructure plan shortly."

A Calgary group, Alberta High-Speed Rail Inc., has floated the idea of a private-public sector joint venture that would see the Alberta government spend $1.6 billion to buy land and build the line, while western Canadian private investors would fund the trains and administration.


"What we're proposing to build is a double-track electric line with TGV-style trains doing 300 kilometres an hour and taking 84 minutes to go from downtown Calgary to downtown Edmonton," said High-Speed's president and chief executive, Bill Cruickshanks, on Thursday.

"Under 600 kilometres, high-speed rail is the most efficient way of moving people around. You can add lanes to Highway 2, but it'll still take you three hours to get there, it'll still have winter driving conditions and it will do nothing to reduce greenhouse gases, " Cruickshanks noted.

"A high-speed train can travel winter and summer, will always get you there in 84 minutes because there's not the congestion there is on the highway, and once you've built it, you can expand it for capacity without having to build any more infrastructure."

Estimates of the project's total cost are as high as $5 billion.

The premier said the project would not be solely funded through Alberta taxpayers' dollars, noting an equity partnership with Ottawa -- or any other type of deal -- isn't out of the question.

"All options are on the table," Stelmach said.

There's an opportunity to snare federal dollars, he added, noting Ottawa is interested in cost sharing for projects that reduce greenhouse gas emissions and move large volumes of people.

Municipalities must also work closely together, he said, noting Calgary should be planning for future rail links to communities like Okotoks and Airdrie.

The Alberta Liberals also are calling for a high-speed train between Calgary and Edmonton, and recently had a motion passed in the legislature that called on the government to procure the necessary lands and right-of-way for the project.

"At least they're starting to think about it," Liberal Leader Kevin Taft said Thursday.

gscotton@theherald.canwest.com

jfekete@theherald.canwest.com

© The Calgary Herald 2007

[YYCguys]

An article that goes into a little more detail...

http://www.canada.com/nationalpost/news/story.html?id=accc3c20-dc7b-4bef-805e-94cbe90572e7&k=58510

Premier backs train
High-speed link between Calgary and Edmonton worth studying, think-tank says

Geoffrey Scotton and Jason Fekete
Calgary Herald


Friday, May 18, 2007



CREDIT: Canadian Press, Herald Archive
A high-speed train could reduce highway traffic by 22 per cent, says Premier Ed Stelmach.


CREDIT: John Lucas/Edmonton Journal
CN Rail staff ready the Bombardier BBRX 2200 prototype locomotive for a run to Calgary at the VIA Rail station

...While a rail link along the Queen Elizabeth 2 Highway would seem like the most logical right-of-way, Stelmach said the government has also eyed Highway 21, which runs parallel to the QE2 about 50 kilometres to the east. ...
gscotton@theherald.canwest.com

jfekete@theherald.canwest.com

© The Calgary Herald 2007

Why would he consider Hwy 21?!?!?! The QE2 corridor is really busy, and will only get more so! Oh ya...I bet Hwy 21 goes through his constituency! :whip: How did this guy ever get to be Premier? I'll bet he's just a puppet to a more forceful and powerful guy behind the scenes.

[m0nkyman]

It's possible they're contemplating that they can't cut off any accesses across the QE2, but they might be able to with the 21, thus saving some money on the construction.

[DizzyEdge]

Red deer's gonna be pissed.

[craner]

I have no reason to go to Edmonton though. ;)

:runaway:

What about when the Flames and Stamps go up there to kick butt ?:yes:

[feepa]

Why would he consider Hwy 21?!?!?! The QE2 corridor is really busy, and will only get more so! Oh ya...I bet Hwy 21 goes through his constituency! :whip: How did this guy ever get to be Premier? I'll bet he's just a puppet to a more forceful and powerful guy behind the scenes.
hwy 21 doesn't go through his constituency, but nice try :)

[woodytobiasjr]

I'm sure this has been discussed before, but I don't think we necessarily need high-speed rail service between the two cities. Even "normal" train service would be sufficient.

I am sitting on a train right now going from Ottawa to Montreal, and it is going about 150km/h for large stretches of the journey on what appears to be normal rail lines and equipment.

Is the extra 30-45 minutes of travel time really worth the extra $$$ for highspeed service. Or at least can't one preceed the other?

Are speeds like that possible and legal in Canada today? I don't know this for a fact, but I was under the impression that trains in Canada were prohibited from traveling at speeds exceeding something really slow like 70... It's possible they have better infrastructure and are operating under an exception.

[mersar]

There are restrictions on freight trains that are specific to certain regions (ex: CN was restricted to about that speed in the areas where they've had derailments in BC last summer), I don't believe there is a all encompassing rule though. And even for something like this they would waive that part most likely as the technology would be designed for the speeds its going.

[RiverRat]

Are speeds like that possible and legal in Canada today? I don't know this for a fact, but I was under the impression that trains in Canada were prohibited from traveling at speeds exceeding something really slow like 70... It's possible they have better infrastructure and are operating under an exception.

I was monitoring the speed via my GPS and the train basically left and arrived on time so it was definately 150km, and a normal and probably legal speed. I've taken the train through Western Canada and the speed was varied between 40 - 130 km but mostly was about 80km.

Probably all depends on the rails, and the terrain, but I can't see why a North/South Alberta rail line would have any physical limitations over what I've seen in Ontario/Quebec.

[mersar]

Via has loco-motive for link

UPDATED: 2007-05-24 01:35:55 MST

Railway excited about prospect of high-speed connection between Alberta cities
By TODD SAELHOF (todd.saelhof@calgarysun.com), SUN MEDIA

Via Rail wants to get back on track in Calgary, using high-speed or regular passenger service, says the company's top man.
President and CEO Paul Cote told a luncheon crowd in Calgary yesterday returning train service to the city for the first time since 1990 was among Via's priorities -- even if the decision isn't in the Crown company's hands.
"We've always made it clear that if we get a chance to come back to serve Calgary, we'd like to do that," said Cote. "We have made several attempts, but CP is not willing to provide us access to the tracks.
"It's not a top priority in our business practice, but we would welcome the opportunity."
In addition to ferrying Calgarians west through Banff and into Vancouver, Cote also embraces the idea of launching a high-speed project linking Calgary and Edmonton.
Via has already lent its knowledge to a recent Van Horne Institute study into the feasibility of a high-speed train accessing the ever-growing corridor between Alberta's two major cities.
"We certainly believe with the expertise of over 30 years that we could launch such a project," Cote told the Calgary Chamber of Commerce luncheon. "We've offered our services, but we don't make the decisions."

The Via boss said the company is encouraged by negotiations regarding a similar high-speed plan in Eastern Canada linking Quebec City with Windsor, Ont.
Van Horne Institute president Peter Wallis praised Via for its contribution to Alberta's bullet train concept, which Premier Ed Stelmach said this month was inevitable.
"The work of the Via team on the study was first class, professional and informative," Wallis said. "We're looking forward to the Alberta government's study of its feasibility."
Studies suggest a high-speed train would cut car traffic as much as 22%.
Meanwhile, CP Rail has argued car and bus travel on improved highways through the mountains have made running trains to Vancouver obsolete.
"We don't see that it would be a viable service," CP Rail spokesman Mark Seland said, adding the company hasn't been approached by Via Rail in two years.

[Mister F]

Are speeds like that possible and legal in Canada today? I don't know this for a fact, but I was under the impression that trains in Canada were prohibited from traveling at speeds exceeding something really slow like 70... It's possible they have better infrastructure and are operating under an exception.
Trains in Canada go faster than you think. On the CN and CP mainlines here in Cobourg the speed limit for freight trains is 96 km/h on the CP line and 104 on the CN line. For passenger trains it's 150, and they do go that fast. I've heard that VIA trains go as fast as 170 in some sections.

Good to hear about some action (or talk at least) on HSR in this country. It's about time. Maybe if this actually goes somewhere in Alberta the premiers of Ontario and Quebec will jump on the bandwagon. I just think it's sad that it's been left up to the provincial governments to take the lead on this when it should be the feds.

[Mister F]

Uh, I think some of you fail to realize that in alot of places freight is shipped overnight when passenger service is finished. I believe thats the most common practice in Europe. I don't think beyond the main HST corridors that dedicated tracks exist so its feasible and probably fiscally prudent to develop HST that uses existing and perhaps slightly upgraded rail lines and rights of way.
In Canada it's the opposite. Most freight trains run during the day.

Which is why fuel taxes should be entirely put towards road construction and maintenance, as originally intended, instead of mixed into the hog trough known as "general revenue". And should be raised if they're insufficient to pay for the roads - not a single dime more should be taken from any other revenue source.
The money from gas taxes is only a small portion of the cost to build and maintain our provincial and municipal roadways (not to mention federal funding). Making gas taxes high enough to pay for all our roads would mean huge increases in gas prices, and would have to be offset by similar cuts in income, property, and all the other kinds of taxes. Something like that, though not as drastic, is actually part of the Green Party's platform - penalize consumption instead of wealth creation (income taxes).

[Boris2k7]

High-speed rail 'interesting': PM
CALGARY-EDMONTON; But decision on 'priority' up to province
Jason Fekete, CanWest News Service
Published: Saturday, June 02, 2007

CALGARY - Prime Minister Stephen Harper refused to pledge funding yesterday to build a high-speed rail link between Calgary and Edmonton, in the wake of a major report calling on the federal and provincial governments to investigate the value of a bullet train.

Premier Ed Stelmach recently said the provincial government "has no choice" but to build a high-speed train between Alberta's two major cities.

And a report released in May by the Conference Board of Canada called on the federal and provincial governments to fully investigate the costs and benefits of high-speed rail links for both the Calgary-Edmonton and the Windsor-Quebec City corridors.

Speaking yesterday in Calgary at the Federation of Canadian Municipalities annual conference, Mr. Harper said Ottawa is committed to transit infrastructure across the country, but seemed to leave the provincial government to drive the agenda on a high-speed rail project.

"It sounds interesting," Mr. Harper said of the proposed bullet train.

"Ultimately the province itself will have to take a look and decide whether this really fits its own priorities," he added. "No matter how many dollars you spend on infrastructure, there's an infinite number of priorities and they'll have to reach their own conclusion on whether that's at the top of their list."

In April, the Alberta government bought land in downtown Calgary and in Edmonton that could serve as train stations and is looking at purchasing right-ofways between the two cities for the possible rail link.

The call by the Ottawa-based Conference Board -- a privately funded economic think-tank -- adds momentum to the concept, which has been discussed for years but is now the subject of a $1-million market assessment study by the Alberta government, due in July. It's the latest in a series of examinations that have indicated the concept has merit.

The project took a forceful step forward a few weeks ago when Mr. Stelmach also threw his support behind the idea.

"We have to. We have no choice. It will reduce emissions and it's visionary. Now is the time to prepare because we have the options available to purchase land," the premier said at the time.

"It's part of planning for the future-- there's no doubt about it -- as the province of Alberta continues to grow and we see more people move to Edmonton, Calgary and, of course, the Highway 2 corridor," Mr. Stelmach said.

[feepa]

Where was this land purchased in Edmonton for the station. I've heard that land has been purchased, but never have I seen where -
I know I've read the location for Calgary (can't recall off the top of my head)... but not Edmonton...

Anyone know?

[Boris2k7]

^ Don't know where it is in Edmonton but it is a piece of land in Victoria Park here in Calgary, just kitty corner to Arriva. It is adjacent to Remington's future "Rail Town" development.

[Xelebes]

Where was this land purchased in Edmonton for the station. I've heard that land has been purchased, but never have I seen where -
I know I've read the location for Calgary (can't recall off the top of my head)... but not Edmonton...

Anyone know?

Old railyards by Whyte?

Edit: Soon to be old, anyways.

[feepa]

Old railyards by Whyte?

Edit: Soon to be old, anyways.

Interesting - but downtown please - needs to be downtown to downtown to make sense in my mind...

[rapid_business]

although there is limited land, how about right at Grandin station?

[Xelebes]

Interesting - but downtown please - needs to be downtown to downtown to make sense in my mind...

I see the Whyte Yards as the service point. We could have a stop by Grandin, but I'm thinking the serviceyards will be at Whyte Yards.

[feepa]

although there is limited land, how about right at Grandin station?

This makes some sense - its very close to Downtown - its right at the Leg, would be on an existing ROW.

Would be sad to see the HL Street Car gone though...

[Coldrsx]

HL street car could run still im sure...

[waterloowarrior]

Constitution

Provinces resp. for

10. Local Works and Undertakings other than such as are of the following Classes:

(a) Lines of Steam or other Ships, Railways, Canals, Telegraphs, and other Works and Undertakings connecting the Province with any other or others of the Provinces, or extending beyond the Limits of the Province:

(b) Lines of Steam Ships between the Province and any British or Foreign Country:

(c) Such Works as, although wholly situate within the Province, are before or after their Execution declared by the Parliament of Canada to be for the general Advantage of Canada or for the Advantage of Two or more of the Provinces.

[Edmonchuck]

I still can't believe people are buying Stelmach's "it is visionary" thing. Funny, still not a concrete plan in sight - election tidbit maybe?

[chenmau]

This was posted in the YEG thread. I thought I would repost it here:

Alberta bullet train backed
Report recommends commuter link between Edmonton and Calgary


toru hanai/reuters

A bullet train such as this N700 model in Japan may soon become a reality in Alberta. A provincial report has found that a high-speed rail link between Edmonton and Calgary is economically feasible.


A multibillion-dollar high-speed rail link between Edmonton and Calgary has taken a massive leap forward after a government report has determined there’s a viable market for the commuter train service.


The preliminary results of the study, conducted for the province by Alex Metcalf of Transportation Economics and Management Systems, found that a rail link is economically feasible.


“Our feeling is that there is a strong market for high-speed rail in Alberta,” Metcalf told Metro yesterday. “It’s quite clear that there is a real opportunity here.”


Metcalf, who conducted a similar study for the province in 1981, said the findings also prove that Alberta’s population has grown enough to generate revenues that will offset the multibillion-dollar price tag.


“There is certainly good opportunity for rail in the corridor,” he said. “Having waited 20 years, we can finally say the market is ready.”


The study sampled potential rail users by interviewing 5,000 motorists travelling on the Queen Elizabeth 2 highway.


Researchers also interviewed 1,000 air travellers and 700 bus users while recording vehicle traffic in four locations between Edmonton and Calgary.


Early data from the sample group proves that commuters are eager to use a bullet train rail link, even with the expected price of a transit fare, he said.


The final report, set to be released later this month, will reveal exact figures, but a Calgary-based high-speed rail company lobbying to take on the project has already confirmed it will charge $65 for a one-way ticket.


Bill Cruickshanks, president of Alberta High-Speed Rail, said the project could be completed in five years for a total cost of $2.2 billion.


“You have to look at this project and see that it’s going to be one of the building blocks for the future of the province,” he said.


The province has already purchased land for expected transit stops while Premier Ed Stelmach has voiced his full support for the rail link earlier this year by telling reporters that it’s an essential project.


“We have to. We have no choice. It will reduce emissions and it’s visionary,” he said.

steve lillebuen/metro edmonton

[feepa]

people used to say Edmonton or Calgary didn't need LRT... waste of money...

[Arriviste]

Oh no.
I can think of two other rail systems that could benefit from 2.2 billion.
Fucking Stelmach. We would reduce more emissions by completing the LRT systems for sure.

[evolv]

Connecting one of the world's fastest growing economic zones by high speed train is a good move. If they were forward thinking they would use the German maglev system. If they use the bombardier jet train the project will fail (would be another case of Canadians accepting mediocrity), and they will end up building the true high speed line at a later date.

Also plan for future extensions up to Ft. Mac (would need maglev to make it worth it, time wize) and to the mountains from Calgary (I realize probably not to many people thinking about taking it to the mountains).

Speaking of maglev, the German system is in need of a confidence boost, I wonder if the government could work out some kind of deal with them, get it for cheaper. It would be the first maglev line as an intercity line, so far the maglev has only been used from city centers to airports. Munich and Shanghai

[Calgarian]

Connecting one of the world's fastest growing economic zones by high speed train is a good move. If they were forward thinking they would use the German maglev system. If they use the bombardier jet train the project will fail (would be another case of Canadians accepting mediocrity), and they will end up building the true high speed line at a later date.

Also plan for future extensions up to Ft. Mac (would need maglev to make it worth it, time wize) and to the mountains from Calgary (I realize probably not to many people thinking about taking it to the mountains).

Speaking of maglev, the German system is in need of a confidence boost, I wonder if the government could work out some kind of deal with them, get it for cheaper. It would be the first maglev line as an intercity line, so far the maglev has only been used from city centers to airports. Munich and Shanghai

Mag-lev trains would be far too expensive for this corridor, even though they would get you to Edmonton in about 45min. A conventional bullet train would be a lot more feasible.

[Innersoul1]

Connecting one of the world's fastest growing economic zones by high speed train is a good move. If they were forward thinking they would use the German maglev system. If they use the bombardier jet train the project will fail (would be another case of Canadians accepting mediocrity), and they will end up building the true high speed line at a later date.

Also plan for future extensions up to Ft. Mac (would need maglev to make it worth it, time wize) and to the mountains from Calgary (I realize probably not to many people thinking about taking it to the mountains).

Speaking of maglev, the German system is in need of a confidence boost, I wonder if the government could work out some kind of deal with them, get it for cheaper. It would be the first maglev line as an intercity line, so far the maglev has only been used from city centers to airports. Munich and Shanghai


Is the intent still there to use the existing CN/CPR lines or is this 2.2 Billion the cost to install and independent line?

[Wooster]

I really have no reason to get to Edmonton, so I don't give a fuck about HSR. Even if I did, how would I get around once there! There is no LRT line to WEM's waterpark. :cool:

LRT FIRST!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Calgarian]

Independant line.

[Calgarian]

I really have no reason to get to Edmonton, so I don't give a fuck about HSR. Even if I did, how would I get around once there! There is no LRT line to WEM's waterpark. :cool:

LRT FIRST!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Are there plans to connect the HSR to LRT lines in each city?

[Beltliner]

Are there plans to connect the HSR to LRT lines in each city?

Can't speak for Edmonton, but the East Fourth station of the southeast C-Train line would be within suitcase-trundling distance of where the TGV station is supposed to go in Railtown. Kind of a pity, though, that the Grand Central C-Train-TGV station complex mooted in the Centre City Plan is off the drawing board now that the TGV is set for Railtown.

Oh, and Josh--

LRT FIRST! LRT NOW!
LRT PREMIÈREMENT! LRT MAINTENANT!
ЛРТ СКОРЕЕ! ЛРТ ТЕПЕРЬ!

Dunno how much clearer I can make it.... ;)

[evolv]

I have no reason to use the LRT

HSR FIRST

[KrisYYC]

Connecting one of the world's fastest growing economic zones by high speed train is a good move. If they were forward thinking they would use the German maglev system. If they use the bombardier jet train the project will fail (would be another case of Canadians accepting mediocrity), and they will end up building the true high speed line at a later date.

Also plan for future extensions up to Ft. Mac (would need maglev to make it worth it, time wize) and to the mountains from Calgary (I realize probably not to many people thinking about taking it to the mountains).

Speaking of maglev, the German system is in need of a confidence boost, I wonder if the government could work out some kind of deal with them, get it for cheaper. It would be the first maglev line as an intercity line, so far the maglev has only been used from city centers to airports. Munich and Shanghai

Mag-levs are extremely expensive. Bombardier has the expertise to build TGV style trains as well. Many Canadians don't know this but Bombardier is actually the world leader in mass transport systems like LRT, subways and intercity trains. So if Bombardier gets the contract it doesn't mean it'll be the Jet Train.

My guess is the main contenders will be Bombardier or Siemens, or a collaboration of the two (Bombardier worked with Siemens when developing the ICE trains for Germany).

But if they do the typically Canadian thing (ie: cheap) and use some lame 200km/h or under train on existing tracks then it'll fail.

Kris

[Boris2k7]

I'm seeing a timeline something like this in my head (doing it quickly, without numbers on hand).

W LRT 2008-2012
SE LRT 2012-2016
N-C LRT 2016-2020
HSR 2020-2025
SUBWAY 2025-2030

[Calgarian]

That's pretty feasible Boris.

[Wooster]

Here's my schedule:

WLRT: NOW
SELRT: A DAY FROM NOW
N-C LRT: TWO DAYS FROM NOW
INNER CITY STREET CAR LOOP: NEXT WEEK
HSR: 2065

:D

[Edmonchuck]

I have no reason to use the LRT

HSR FIRST


Yeah, so you and the other 6 people can have a nice 2.2 billion dollar piece of shit to whisk you to a station that has no other connections to get you around when you get there. But boy oh boy, I can have a burger at 300 km/h while looking at Panoka blast by. Yippie. :koko:

If you want to be environmentally friendly and take cars off the road, build LRT. Anyone who seriously thinks that this bullet train is an environmental boon is smoking the wrong stuff and looking at the wrong train. Having a speedy white elephant take you somewhere else where you can just add another car to the road and pollute my backyard is just silly.

Please God, send in some sanity before we build some stupid freaking toy with our resource money. Buy some right of way for now.

[The Geographer]

2.2 billion? At that price it sounds like they are pussying out and going for the Bombardier jet thing on conventional track.

And people, why can't we just do both LRT and HSR? I don't see them as separate projects, but rather things that are complementary and should be built simultaneously. Greater LRT improves the feasibility of HSR, while HSR would get travellers straight into downtown or on an LRT instead of on the Deerfoot in a cab/rental.

But then I am the raise taxes guy.

My vision:
WLRT, SELRT, NCLRT, and HSR all finished before 2020 (WRLT significantly sooner).

[feepa]

2.2 billion? At that price it sounds like they are pussying out and going for the Bombardier jet thing on conventional track.

And people, why can't we just do both LRT and HSR? I don't see them as separate projects, but rather things that are complementary and should be built simultaneously. Greater LRT improves the feasibility of HSR, while HSR would get travellers straight into downtown or on an LRT instead of on the Deerfoot in a cab/rental.

But then I am the raise taxes guy.

My vision:
WLRT, SELRT, NCLRT, and HSR all finished before 2020 (WRLT significantly sooner).

Oh ya, and I want WLRT, NELRT, W-ELRT, and some fancy street cars too. Maybe also a lollipop :frog:(for Edmonton that is...)

[evolv]

2.2 billion? At that price it sounds like they are pussying out and going for the Bombardier jet thing on conventional track.

And people, why can't we just do both LRT and HSR? I don't see them as separate projects, but rather things that are complementary and should be built simultaneously. Greater LRT improves the feasibility of HSR, while HSR would get travellers straight into downtown or on an LRT instead of on the Deerfoot in a cab/rental.

But then I am the raise taxes guy.

My vision:
WLRT, SELRT, NCLRT, and HSR all finished before 2020 (WRLT significantly sooner).

Exactly my thinking. Except for the raising taxes part. I think the province can do all the projects and make it very easy to use the system as a whole. In regards to my post above "HSR First", my intention was to just show that there are people who have a need for different types of transit, in this case intercity vs. LRT. At the end of the day the government needs to make this province easily travelled without the use of a car.

Ways to acheive this:

1. LRT infrastructure
2. Encourage people to live, work and play all in the same area
3. HSR service to major centers. (Fort Mac may be to far to make this worth while) but a Calgary - Edmonton line would be a good start

These three are the obvious ways and I'm sure there are others.

Building a solid base transit infrastructure now will make it easier to deal with problems in the future.

[tarapoto]

Can't speak for Edmonton, but the East Fourth station of the southeast C-Train line would be within suitcase-trundling distance of where the TGV station is supposed to go in Railtown. Kind of a pity, though, that the Grand Central C-Train-TGV station complex mooted in the Centre City Plan is off the drawing board now that the TGV is set for Railtown.

Oh, and Josh--

LRT FIRST! LRT NOW!
LRT PREMIÈREMENT! LRT MAINTENANT!
ЛРТ СКОРЕЕ! ЛРТ ТЕПЕРЬ!

Dunno how much clearer I can make it.... ;)

LRT AHORA MISMO!

I helped:yes:

[KrisYYC]

Byggede S-Tog først!!!

;)

[Edmonchuck]

Exactly my thinking. Except for the raising taxes part. I think the province can do all the projects and make it very easy to use the system as a whole. In regards to my post above "HSR First", my intention was to just show that there are people who have a need for different types of transit, in this case intercity vs. LRT. At the end of the day the government needs to make this province easily travelled without the use of a car.

Ways to acheive this:

1. LRT infrastructure
2. Encourage people to live, work and play all in the same area
3. HSR service to major centers. (Fort Mac may be to far to make this worth while) but a Calgary - Edmonton line would be a good start

These three are the obvious ways and I'm sure there are others.

Building a solid base transit infrastructure now will make it easier to deal with problems in the future.


Folks...

HSR is dead.

Really.

Bronconnier basically committed political suicide on this project when he stated that "High Speed Rail is the best thing that ever happened to the Calgary Airport". So, thanks to him, he alienated the other end of the line - namely Edmonton. Ever wonder why Edmonton is not actively securing this ROW? Hmmmmm.

Add to this the fact that HSR is nice lip service as an election tidbit, and really is only a good investment plan for the 5 or 6 investors as long as the government subsidizes all your costs, and when this thing actually comes to a vote, it will die. Combine that with the ever-increasing infrastructure demands from Bronco and others, and you really think that the PC's will look at this thing in a greater light than by throwing a coupel hundered thousand to consulting buddies with the last name of Klein or Lougheed?

So, keep dreaming of your pretty toy HSR fans. Because that is all it will ever be in our lifetime, a dream. Oh pretty, oh speedy, oh dream.

[Bigtime]

Folks...

HSR is dead.

Really.

Bronconnier basically committed political suicide on this project when he stated that "High Speed Rail is the best thing that ever happened to the Calgary Airport". So, thanks to him, he alienated the other end of the line - namely Edmonton. Ever wonder why Edmonton is not actively securing this ROW? Hmmmmm.

Add to this the fact that HSR is nice lip service as an election tidbit, and really is only a good investment plan for the 5 or 6 investors as long as the government subsidizes all your costs, and when this thing actually comes to a vote, it will die. Combine that with the ever-increasing infrastructure demands from Bronco and others, and you really think that the PC's will look at this thing in a greater light than by throwing a coupel hundered thousand to consulting buddies with the last name of Klein or Lougheed?

So, keep dreaming of your pretty toy HSR fans. Because that is all it will ever be in our lifetime, a dream. Oh pretty, oh speedy, oh dream.

As I read this the song "House of the Rising Sun" was playing, it made me sad.

Nah, I'm ok folks!

However your points do carry some weight, very interesting to consider.