[feepa]

Good luck getting any sort of rail rights on the CP line between C&E, VIA or not VIA...

the problem with using the existing line is that its jammed full of freight. We use to have a dayliner service, my father reminds me. It would sit on the side track while higher paying freight went by. Greyhound service was faster.

Building a new line would be needed... and if your going to build a new line for passenger service only, might as well go all the way... A diesel train won't cut it at that point.

Passenger rail service between C&E is in between a rock and a hard place with no real viable solution at this point...

[albertantraingeek]

Unless you want the passenger rail stuck at freight rail speeds (slower than Highway 2), you have to double track a huge amount of the line, to avoid the then 17 freight trains a day that use the tracks (mind you, both those facts are from the study from the 1980s) - does CPR even run the freight milk run anymore?

You also would need to schedule time on the CPR mainline if you want to get into downtown Calgary no?

It isn't impossible to be sure, but I doubt the cost advantage would exist at all compared to a bus, and the time advantage would be nonexistant.

True, all very good points, I hadn't actually thought of the double-tracking part. I believe the number of Freights on the CEC daily is closer to 25, but they come & go, could be as few as 7 one day, then 20 the next. The milk run is definetly gone, unless you're refering to the switcher that goes to Carseland & Carsdale. That little tank train still runs multiple times a week.

As for scheduling, when CP & Via coexisted in Calgary, the scheduling was managed then. It shouldn't be much harder to schedule passenger service in todays world.

As for that last point, what about something like this here?

http://www.getsthere.com/?p=226

[rapid_business]

Again... as much as I love trains... and have rode on them all over Europe, Asia and even VIA in Ontario... we have to come back down to earth in terms of our thinking about how passenger service could work in Alberta. The density is just not there to justify any new infrastructural investment outside of the Cal/Edm corridor. Outside of that, automotive ownership is too high, and the density far too low to have a successful regular train service.

Places we romanticize about either have densities significantly higher than 'rural' Alberta;
and/or have passenger train infrastructure that has existed for the past 100 years;
and/or has had passenger train service long enough that travel patterns have been built around them;
and/or historically different levels of automotive ownership compared to Alberta.

[Policy Wonk]

It is truly baffling that there is no passenger rail service between these two large and growing cities. I know there used to be and it was shut down at a time when there were less people living in Alberta as well as a not so hot time in history for rail transit.

Not baffling at all, it was the worst performing route in the entire VIA system and the entire daily embankment could fit on a yellow school bus.

Indeed in the early 80's even before the Dayliner was finally put out of its misery the Lougheed government investigated launching a modernized service, which would have been operated with the LRC for which there had already been trials on the route. Unfortunately however the LRC just couldn't be economically operated in small enough trainsets to replace the RDC's. The determination was the demand just wasn't there - and that was the beginning of the Alberta HSR discussion... if only it was faster. This was followed by a half-assed TGV study. Demand could be 100 fold greater than it was in 1986 and it still wouldn't be workable.

But the whole discussion in the present day is completely moot. Edmonton airport boosterism would never allow the project to go forward. It is a small wonder there aren't gangs of hooligans from Connect2Edmonton ransacking cars looking for luggage on the QE2 south of Highway 39.

[Policy Wonk]

Via Rail has an extremly unhealthy obsession with running on only CN tracks, no matter how much grief is sent their way it seems. I would like passenger service reinstated ASAP, but here in the west, we kinda get ignored by Parliament.

Sure... if by "unhealthy obsession" you mean the CPR doesn't want anything to do with them.

[Policy Wonk]

Rocky Mountaineer is a Tourist Operation, which was originally operated by Via,

The Rocky Mountaineer has been a private operation from its inception,

[albertantraingeek]

The Rocky Mountaineer has been a private operation from its inception,

Are you thinking that I said that it is owned by Tourists? If so, you are incorrect. It is indeed a private RR, but I'm saying its profit comes from tourism.

[albertantraingeek]

Sure... if by "unhealthy obsession" you mean the CPR doesn't want anything to do with them.

Nope I mean the government decides where they run, if CP didn't want anything to do with them then they wouldn't have expressed their support in this project. CN has a bad rep. for poorly maintaining their tracks.

[MalcolmTucker]

Are you thinking that I said that it is owned by Tourists? If so, you are incorrect. It is indeed a private RR, but I'm saying its profit comes from tourism.
No, he is saying it was not originally run by VIA. A transcontinental train that passed through Calgary was run by VIA, and when VIA cut back to one transcontinental route, it soon came under political pressure to run it through Edmonton instead. Fortunately The government of the day was able to find a private operator to run the Mountain route which reduced the political price of the decision, and all parties benefited from the arrangement.

[ue]

Not baffling at all, it was the worst performing route in the entire VIA system and the entire daily embankment could fit on a yellow school bus.

Indeed in the early 80's even before the Dayliner was finally put out of its misery the Lougheed government investigated launching a modernized service, which would have been operated with the LRC for which there had already been trials on the route. Unfortunately however the LRC just couldn't be economically operated in small enough trainsets to replace the RDC's. The determination was the demand just wasn't there - and that was the beginning of the Alberta HSR discussion... if only it was faster. This was followed by a half-assed TGV study. Demand could be 100 fold greater than it was in 1986 and it still wouldn't be workable.

But the whole discussion in the present day is completely moot. Edmonton airport boosterism would never allow the project to go forward. It is a small wonder there aren't gangs of hooligans from Connect2Edmonton ransacking cars looking for luggage on the QE2 south of Highway 39.

What the fuck? Please don't bring Edmonton airports into the equation when it has nothing to do with HSR (yes, I know, you'll reply with reasons that it does). HSR would be an alternative to air travel in BOTH Calgary and Edmonton. However, the effect would be small on non Calgary-Edmonton and Edmonton-Calgary travel. There may be a few people more who just train down to Calgary for int'l flights, but I think it will just be more of people who would have otherwise drove down anyways and opting to get to YYC quicker and without wasting gas.

[MalcolmTucker]

What the fuck? Please don't bring Edmonton airports into the equation when it has nothing to do with HSR (yes, I know, you'll reply with reasons that it does). HSR would be an alternative to air travel in BOTH Calgary and Edmonton. However, the effect would be small on non Calgary-Edmonton and Edmonton-Calgary travel. There may be a few people more who just train down to Calgary for int'l flights, but I think it will just be more of people who would have otherwise drove down anyways and opting to get to YYC quicker and without wasting gas.
Tell, that to most of Edmonton City Council. There are plenty of people in high places in Edmonton that want nothing to do with this project due to fear it would be a nail in the coffin for broader ambitions for EIA.

I don't think it would be, but I can see the reason why people would be fearful.

[Xelebes]

But the whole discussion in the present day is completely moot. Edmonton airport boosterism would never allow the project to go forward. It is a small wonder there aren't gangs of hooligans from Connect2Edmonton ransacking cars looking for luggage on the QE2 south of Highway 39.

Totally uncalled for, PW. Knock it off.

[Policy Wonk]

Are you thinking that I said that it is owned by Tourists? If so, you are incorrect. It is indeed a private RR, but I'm saying its profit comes from tourism.

Per usual I am not sure what you are saying. VIA Rail has never had anything to do with the Rocky Mountaineer.

[Policy Wonk]

Fortunately The government of the day was able to find a private operator to run the Mountain route which reduced the political price of the decision, and all parties benefited from the arrangement.

Plans for the luxury operation that became the Rocky Mountaineer predated the cutting of The Canadian in the 1989 Federal Budget.

[albertantraingeek]

No, he is saying it was not originally run by VIA. A transcontinental train that passed through Calgary was run by VIA...

http://www.canadianrailwayobservations.com/PDF/CRO_0210.pdf Skip to page 21 on this PDF.

Although "Rocky Mountaineer" likes to claim all the glory for creating tourist train service in the Canadian Rockies, in fact it was VIA Rail who came up with the concept of a daylight train through
the best scenery with an overnight stay in Kamloops. It operated under unweildy title "Canadian Rockies by Daylight/Montenarde des Rocheuses" for the 1988 and 1989 summer seasons as VIA 101 and 102 with 103/104 operating to Jasper. The concept arrived out of a desire to have daily service to Jasper, which was provided in earlier seasons by operating the "Skeena" equipment Jasper-Vancouver between trips to Prince Rupert. I haven't read Peter Armstrong's biography, but I think he was involved with a travel agency in Vancouver which specialised in rail . I think he did the marketing for the NRHS "Okanagan Explorer" trains operated in the early 1980's to Kelowna and Penticton using Terry Ferguson's 'Victoria Pacific" cars. He may also have been the marketer for the VIA daylight tourist trains. Along came the VIA cuts of 1990, and the tourist trains were on the list of services to be discontinued. Mr.Armstrong used hispolitical savvy/connections to purchase the VIA "Dayniter" cars used in this service . Although the track and crew usage fees negotiated between Armstrong and CP are not public information, I suspect they were much lower than what CP was charging VIA. Here are some images of Via 101,102 and 103 during the operating season in 1988. That's me as engineer on VIA 102, along with Torontonian Brian D'Arcy. (Phil Mason)

[albertantraingeek]

But the whole discussion in the present day is completely moot. Edmonton airport boosterism would never allow the project to go forward. It is a small wonder there aren't gangs of hooligans from Connect2Edmonton ransacking cars looking for luggage on the QE2 south of Highway 39.
:offtopic: And the ensuing result will be: :dancinglock Like Xelebes said, knock dat off bro

[Policy Wonk]

However, the effect would be small on non Calgary-Edmonton and Edmonton-Calgary travel.

I completely agree with you, but that won't come into it. I won't drag on any further - but the eccentricities of the issue where Edmonton is concerned can't be purged from the discussion.

[Xelebes]

I completely agree with you, but that won't come into it. I won't drag on any further - but the eccentricities of the issue where Edmonton is concerned can't be purged from the discussion.

To flip it around, the eccentricities of the issue where Calgary is concerned can't be purged from the discussion either. To persistently inject themselves into the YXD/YEG issue is nothing more than to rattle the cage in Edmonton. To have us Edmontonians throw fits if the Calgarians decided to close Springbank is nothing short of mischief.

[s211]

The Rocky Mountaineer has been a private operation from its inception,

A VERY expensive private operation, too boot. This isn't a shleppy operation. It costs a fortune to ride this.

[Policy Wonk]

To flip it around, the eccentricities of the issue where Calgary is concerned can't be purged from the discussion either. To persistently inject themselves into the YXD/YEG issue is nothing more than to rattle the cage in Edmonton. To have us Edmontonians throw fits if the Calgarians decided to close Springbank is nothing short of mischief.

If Springbank were to be closed there would be a number of people in Edmonton with VERY strong feelings on the matter.

This isn't about rattling cages it is about preventing an irreversible disaster that will not only have consequences for Edmonton but the entire province and beyond. And as you know these opinions are shared by a great number of those in Edmonton. You don't want to hear about it and that is just fine. I won't argue the point any further here.

The issue where HSR is concerned is the same bureaucrats who were ranting and raving about the implausible "back-door hub" supposedly being operated by Quikair and Peace Air that threatened the very survival of YEG are going to fight tooth and nail against this, probably successfully. And if that is what it takes to kill this boondoggle at birth, God Bless them.

[Xelebes]

Look, if you want to engage in an open mockery of the members here and on C2E, this is not the place for it. Simply that. Choose your battles.

[jlousa]

As an outsider I find the airport argument interesting. Now based on my European experience most of the train stations are located downtown. This is so to improve comparative travel times from city centres via flying. I think if the plan is the same for Edm-Cal that would alleviate some of the fears of Edm's airport losing traffic to Calgary.
It's not like most people would travel downtown with luggage to catch a train, end up in downtown Calgary with said luggage and have to still get out to the airport. Now if the trains stations where both out by the airport it would be a more valid concern but that won't be the case.

[feepa]

HSR would definitely be the final nail in the coffin for Edmonton city center airport that PW so passionately likes... anything to funnel traffic through YYC and the downfall of YEG is where you'll find PW posting about. Good grief

[Policy Wonk]

What?

The only service I actively argued for at YXD was FBO based Part 703 and 704 service which is capped at 19 passengers (Metroliner, Twin Otter, Beech 1900 etc) and was of no detriment to YEG what-so-ever.

I think the people who drive to YYC from Edmonton are insane.

But the same administrative paranoia that threatens YXD will also sink any HSR proposal. Despite strange claims by EIA of a "back-door hub" nobody was climbing off Quikair in Calgary behind the Deerfoot Walmart so they could take a taxi to the passenger terminal, a great distance away and get there in time to board another flight to some far flung destination. Just as nobody would take HSR to downtown Calgary and trek up to YYC - especially given how expensive fares are likely to be. But there mere fact it is possible will be enough to unleash the same paranoid forces against HSR.

Then there is this passage in the report by Alberta Infrastructure and Transportation:

Regarding the Air service, the HSR mode may provide in future access to the airports YYC and YEG. Under the station plan being considered in this study, HSR is not planned to access either international airport. However, a future suburban Calgary HSR station will likely be located in closer proximity to an airport than a suburban station in Edmonton.

If this force can be ushered to kill this white elephant that is just great.

[MalcolmTucker]

As an outsider I find the airport argument interesting. Now based on my European experience most of the train stations are located downtown. This is so to improve comparative travel times from city centres via flying. I think if the plan is the same for Edm-Cal that would alleviate some of the fears of Edm's airport losing traffic to Calgary.
It's not like most people would travel downtown with luggage to catch a train, end up in downtown Calgary with said luggage and have to still get out to the airport. Now if the trains stations where both out by the airport it would be a more valid concern but that won't be the case.
All of the studies have stops at the Calgary Airport, and most say there will be one at Edmonton's, or by the Henday.

[albertantraingeek]

If this force can be ushered to kill this white elephant that is just great.

White Elephants are in the eye of the beholder.

[hqcan]

This is definitely an article of note for this topic. I don't think the Redford government will stoke this fire until after they have secured a new government.

http://www.edmontonjournal.com/news/High+speed+rail+premier+agenda/5906613/story.html

[albertantraingeek]

This is definitely an article of note for this topic. I don't think the Redford government will stoke this fire until after they have secured a new government.

http://www.edmontonjournal.com/news/High+speed+rail+premier+agenda/5906613/story.html

Good article, but people in the comments... Just... wow. If people keep arguing like they are in the comments then NOTHING is going to get done, be it HSR or LRT.

[rapid_business]

Comments section on newspapers/media websites are the lowest common denominator of banter and attract the least sane and level headed people out of the woodwork. If there was a way to turn off the comments section for every news-related website I visit, I would in a heartbeat.

[snowboarder1019]

[QUOTE=Bassic Lab;3277909]Believe me, I wasn't suggesting Lethbridge should be on a HSR route, only that Fort Mac is an even worse idea. There is no where on earth where any one would consider biulding a High Speed train 400 Km to go to a city of 50 000 people. 300 km between two cities of a million plus has happened, but 50 000 is just laughable.QUOTE]

Red arrow / Greyhound busses are always packed. Fort Mcmurray is building an airport terminal to support 1,5 million people per year and is one of the busiest airports in canada for the area it serves of 100k people. HSR would be a good idea especially when Ft. Mcmurray gets some crown land and they build houses the population will jump.