[Biff]

Thank's Greco, I've been meaning to say this for some time.

[newflyer]

I think in another thread peeps are discussing the need for vibrant retail anchors downtown. Yes we've heard it all before, downtown doesn't fit into IKEA's logistical needs. But it's a business, and bottom line is, if the price is right and the business case works, then it should be considered. IKEA already knows they could build their store anywhere in the Winnipeg area and people would flock to it. So again, why not downtown?

I feel for your point of view... and want downtown to attract better retailers too.

Location is a huge factor when desiding where a store like this will be located. They really wanted to be in the SW .. because thats where there research indicated there were the highest chances to maximize profits. I can absolutely assure you that IKEA would not have located downtown .. even if they were given the land for free. The size and logistics of this store is beyond anything Winnipeg has ever seen and doesn't fit a downtown environment. Downtown would be completely inconsistant with the IKEA business model. Its not a Winnipeg downtown issue .. it come down to the business model which they are using.

[Duke-Of-Waterloo]

Has anyone discussed in this thread the small temporary Ikea studio location in downtown Toronto that was open last summer? The company opened it to promote their 2009 catalog. I heard that such a store may become a permanent reality to tap into the downtown condo market in Toronto, and that the temporary store was just testing the market. I'm not sure if such a store would be apple to be supported in downtown Winnipeg, but regardless, it's a good idea to throw around. That type of store is probably the closest any downtown in Canada would get to having anything bare the "Ikea" name, rather than a full-sized store.

Check out the Toronto Star article on it here: City life makes big boxes go small or go home (http://www.thestar.com/comment/columnists/article/462641#Comments)

Anyways, congrats Winnipeg on your new store. :tup:

[viperred88]

Has anyone discussed in this thread the small temporary Ikea studio location in downtown Toronto that was open last summer? The company opened it to promote their 2009 catalog. I heard that such a store may become a permanent reality to tap into the downtown condo market in Toronto, and that the temporary store was just testing the market. I'm not sure if such a store would be apple to be supported in downtown Winnipeg, but regardless, it's a good idea to throw around. That type of store is probably the closest any downtown in Canada would get to having anything bare the "Ikea" name, rather than a full-sized store.

Check out the Toronto Star article on it here: City life makes big boxes go small or go home (http://www.thestar.com/comment/columnists/article/462641#Comments)

Anyways, congrats Winnipeg on your new store. :tup:

Thanks for sharing :) :) :) :D

[viperred88]

I see the canada post building by the library on graham being a perfect fit to be redeveloped for an Ikea with some mixe-usage with offices and condos with small store fronts facing graham, perhaps even bringing the building right up to the sidewalk.

Perhaps have an undergound parkade with the Ikea over top, like the superstore at unicity.

[viperred88]

Has anyone discussed in this thread the small temporary Ikea studio location in downtown Toronto that was open last summer? The company opened it to promote their 2009 catalog. I heard that such a store may become a permanent reality to tap into the downtown condo market in Toronto, and that the temporary store was just testing the market. I'm not sure if such a store would be apple to be supported in downtown Winnipeg, but regardless, it's a good idea to throw around. That type of store is probably the closest any downtown in Canada would get to having anything bare the "Ikea" name, rather than a full-sized store.

Check out the Toronto Star article on it here: City life makes big boxes go small or go home (http://www.thestar.com/comment/columnists/article/462641#Comments)

Anyways, congrats Winnipeg on your new store. :tup:

City life makes big boxes go small or go home


Jul 18, 2008 04:30 AM
Comments on this story (6)
Christopher Hume

The Urban Revolution continues. The latest sign is the arrival of Ikea. The Swedish chain has been around for decades, of course, but in suburbia. Now it's opening a store, albeit a small store by Ikea standards, on downtown King St. E. between Jarvis and Church.

The suburban setting never quite meshed with IKEA's image as the thinking person's furniture store. But in these parts, that's where the growth has been and that's where the parking is.

But now suburbia is saturated; there's little room or reason for expansion – except in the city. Fuelled by a condo boom that won't be stopped, downtown has become newly attractive. Despite its deeply conservative culture, Big Retail has grasped the potential of the inner-core.

Some have floundered on the shoals of urban prickliness and the demands of context. Think of the Battle of Eastern Ave. That's where SmartCentres is fighting against the city and residents over its plans to build a large Wal-Mart-anchored shopping centre.

Ironically, perhaps, in this case the developer has actually gone to the trouble of designing a mall that takes its architectural cues from its surroundings. For an industry more accustomed to throwing up steel-and-brick boxes at will, the fracas has been painful.

Other chains, especially Shoppers Drug Mart, have expanded vigorously throughout the city, wreaking damage almost everywhere they go. The latest insult to urbanity is the Shoppers under construction on Danforth Ave., east of Broadview. It has all the architectural subtlety and appropriateness of a parking garage. The design illustrates a corporate mindset dedicated to sameness at all costs.

On a more positive note, a new Home Depot will be located in a mixed-use building at Queen and Portland Sts. The idea is to put small retail at grade, the Home Depot above, and residential units above that.

Then there's the Canadian Tire at Dundas and Bay Sts., installed in a building that also includes three storeys of parking and Ryerson University's School of Management. The beauty of the arrangement lies in the fact that the store gets a great corner, Ryerson makes a bit of money and Canadian Tire is just about invisible, i.e. it doesn't look like the usual outlet.

Back in the 1990s, when Barbara Hall was mayor and Toronto was the old city of Toronto, there was a planning experiment in which zoning by use at King and Spadina and King and Parliament was replaced by built-form requirements. The city decided that what mattered was not how a building was used – retail, commercial or residential – but how it fitted into its context.

Obviously, the city wouldn't have allowed heavy industry in either area, but in relaxing the regulations, the intention was to unleash the forces of diversity. It was an enlightened initiative and in its own quiet way, it marked official Toronto's return to thinking like a city.

The issue isn't whether we want Canadian Tire, Shoppers, or Ikea downtown, but that we don't want them to look and act as they do in the hinterland. These chains want to do business in the city and they should, but not at the cost of damaging the very urban fabric of which they want to be part.

With its new premises in an existing building, Ikea fits in effortlessly. No, it's not as big as its suburban siblings, but that could well turn out to be a good thing. Like so many chains, Ikea has become just another progenitor of homogeneity. For the first time in a long time, Ikea might actually be interesting.

Christopher Hume can be reached at chume@thestar.ca





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Seems obvious!
Well done Mr. Hume. It's sad to hear people calling you a whiner; what we need is more constructive criticism. What world class city has ever developed under a non-discerning eye?! Additionally, I'm shocked at that anyone embraces the big-box look and its ability to create congestion and rape a neighborhood of culture. For all you haters, why don’t you move to lovely Vaughn where you can shop til you drop?! …Barf!!! HUME FOR MAYOR!!!!

Submitted by RTS at 8:24 AM Sunday, July 20 2008

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space is at a premium
Like the living spaces, the stores would follow suit and be smaller. I am not sure how people will come and buy furniture and cart it around without getting parking tickets. I agree with Ernest. Hume spends more time whining and would be better served offering realistic solutions instead of his incessant railing against suburbia and NIMBYs.

Submitted by stepback at 8:41 AM Saturday, July 19 2008

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CT Bay & Dundas most profitable?
Not true. The store is under-performing when compared to traditional format stores. It doesn't even have a profit sharing program for employees.

Submitted by my_idea at 12:18 AM Saturday, July 19 2008

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IKEA downtown
The downtown IKEA will be a wonderful addition to the neighbourhood. I will bet any amount of money it will be a goldmine for them. As is the IKEA in North York and other areas of the GTA. This downtown one will serve all the new condos going up all over downtown Toronto. Good move for IKEA to finally open a store downtown.

Submitted by lead82 at 5:26 PM Friday, July 18 2008

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Bring back 1890 for Hume!
Geez Christopher, nothing ever seems to make you happy about how things are being developed in the city. Today it's Shoppers Drug Mart that is a blight to the "hood" in your estimation? And tomorrow? You keep missing the point, Christopher; Toronto is WAY past the point of trying to sort itself out of an architectural nightmare that is decades old. Progress does not stop at your door and to be honest, your thinking belongs back in the 1890's, where at least you had a decent opportunity at doing it right. In all honesty, I find your columns not only frustrating, but your blatent cat-calls of injustice just plain flabergasting. Use your column and efforts to bring about change, not for incessent complaints. If it bothers you this much, then do something about it and stop complaining! Not many will ever have the avenue to communicate that you do; so stop wasting a wonderful opportunity by remaining obtuse.

Submitted by Ernest Reed at 1:03 PM Friday, July 18 2008

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Right On!
Mr. Hume, as usual, hits the right note. Torontonians are not against Home Depot or Wall Mart or Ikea. Torontonians are against the suburban model of the big box sitting in the middle of a massive parking lot, and trying to disguise it has something else, like SmartCentres is trying to do at Leslieville, just won't cut it. As an aside, I was told that Canadian Tire's store at Bay and Dundas is their most profitable per square feet. Can anyone confirm this?

Submitted by SydneyCarton at 9:48 AM Friday, July 18 2008

[newflyer]

I see the canada post building by the library on graham being a perfect fit to be redeveloped for an Ikea with some mixe-usage with offices and condos with small store fronts facing graham, perhaps even bringing the building right up to the sidewalk.

Perhaps have an undergound parkade with the Ikea over top, like the superstore at unicity.

It is a nice idea, but in today's business reality it would never happen.

Not to mention that the exsisting post office building would be nowhere even close to being able to accomodate the proposed IKEA. Perhaps you are confusing it for a JYSK store, but the largest IKEA store in Canada simply won't fit into downtown, under its current business model.

Please let me remind you of the failure of Portage Place.. when it first opened it was packed full of quality brand stores. A couple years later of very low sales numbers and the reality of dowtown was shown, unable to support such stores. While downtown has improved since then, it really needs to work at creating a much busier central business district and residental district, before it can hope at attracting any big brand retail outlets. I know this is not what we want to believe, but I believe it is fact.

This is why killing projects like 100 Main and reducing the potencial of a higher density city centre is really hurting downtown as a whole and the hopes of drawing more quality retailers. Yet another grass lot will do nothing to attract an Apple Store or Future Shop to downtown.

[SpongeG]

theres been talk of putting a smaller IKEA into downtown vancouver - the same way Costco opened downtown

IKEA in europe has opened a number of smaller stores in downtown areas - but even in Europe IKEA is out in the fringes of Suburbia

Its a nice idea but they (IKEA) have too many trucks and trailers coming and going and leaving the trailers sitting there for days at a time -could any downtown handle that?

[c vist]

My favorite part about the article was "Fuelled by a condo boom that won't be stopped, downtown has become newly attractive."

My how things have changed since July.

I don't see why the downtown supporters of an IKEA do not see the difference between Wpg and To ... the article even cites the urban population in Toronto as the basis for the experiment. Winnipeg does not have 5.5 million people in the greater Winnipeg area nor the 2.2 million Toronto has in the City. We are not an urban oriented City ... and probably never will be.

This argument seems futile.

I am very happy with what we are getting ... a store that isn't in Regina, Saskatoon and many American major cities as well. This store will serve Winnipeg well.

[RAFS]

I'm not sure where all these people are who want IKEA downtown!!! I know many people in the architectural/design/development/construction industry, and NONE of them think a downtown IKEA is a good idea. I also know many "regular Joes", and NONE of them think it is a good idea either. And the only person I met who doesn't like the selected location is mostly concerned about the increased traffic (cause they live near there).

So what am I to think? That most of the people I talk to have no clue, or..... well..... I'm sure you can see where I'm heading with that.

Now I wait patiently for the select few to say "And that's the problem in Winnipeg. No one has a clue."

[newflyer]

I am very happy with what we are getting ... a store that isn't in Regina, Saskatoon and many American major cities as well. This store will serve Winnipeg well.


I agree with you completely ... Winnipeg's new IKEA will become a huge draw to the city. I am very happy to see them moving forward with there very impressive plans.

[Only The Lonely..]

Friday's letter of the day..(from the FP)

An idea for IKEA

In response to the news that IKEA is moving to Winnipeg, and the discussion regarding its relationship to planning in Winnipeg, I offer this suggestion for consideration.

Our downtown is increasingly in a struggle to maintain its position of importance in the city as a whole. Retail is steadily moving to the outskirts (unfortunately) in a search for cheap land for the big-box model of contemporary retail. Presumably, that is also why IKEA chose its location on Sterling Lyon Parkway. However, there may be a possibility to satisfy both the needs of downtown and the commercial needs of IKEA. One of our downtown anchors, the Hudson Bay store, former retail giant of Western Canada, is in increasing danger of following in the doomed footsteps of our Eaton's store. It remains an important part of Winnipeg's built heritage. The Hudson Bay Co. store has a total of approximately 85,000 square feet per floor -- times six floors -- equals 510,000 square feet. Since the IKEA store plans a 350,000 square-foot-store, it would seem that the idea is at least worth some investigation.

There may also be space left over for a floor for the Hudson Bay Co. and perhaps also for a University of Winnipeg presence. This symbiotic relationship could help to bring downtown back to life in a dramatic way and provide IKEA with an iconic presence, a unique flagship in its chain of North American locations. The City of Winnipeg could save the reported $18 million of anticipated roadway /infrastructure costs. A portion of that amount could be offered as an incentive to IKEA in order to offset some of the renovation costs. Parking is available in the parkade, and there is truck access into the building.

There are obviously many practical issues to resolve, but it seems that the idea has enough potentially valuable benefits to warrant a vigorous exploration of the possibility.


James Kacki

Winnipeg

[drew]

Whether IKEA downtown is realistic or not, I don't think anyone can disagree that having an IKEA store in downtown Winnipeg would go much farther in downtown retail rejuvenation than any other "downtown saviour" scheme that has been completed in the past 30 years.

[Tower Crane]

Friday's letter of the day..(from the FP)

An idea for IKEA

In response to the news that IKEA is moving to Winnipeg, and the discussion regarding its relationship to planning in Winnipeg, I offer this suggestion for consideration.

Our downtown is increasingly in a struggle to maintain its position of importance in the city as a whole. Retail is steadily moving to the outskirts (unfortunately) in a search for cheap land for the big-box model of contemporary retail. Presumably, that is also why IKEA chose its location on Sterling Lyon Parkway. However, there may be a possibility to satisfy both the needs of downtown and the commercial needs of IKEA. One of our downtown anchors, the Hudson Bay store, former retail giant of Western Canada, is in increasing danger of following in the doomed footsteps of our Eaton's store. It remains an important part of Winnipeg's built heritage. The Hudson Bay Co. store has a total of approximately 85,000 square feet per floor -- times six floors -- equals 510,000 square feet. Since the IKEA store plans a 350,000 square-foot-store, it would seem that the idea is at least worth some investigation.

There may also be space left over for a floor for the Hudson Bay Co. and perhaps also for a University of Winnipeg presence. This symbiotic relationship could help to bring downtown back to life in a dramatic way and provide IKEA with an iconic presence, a unique flagship in its chain of North American locations. The City of Winnipeg could save the reported $18 million of anticipated roadway /infrastructure costs. A portion of that amount could be offered as an incentive to IKEA in order to offset some of the renovation costs. Parking is available in the parkade, and there is truck access into the building.

There are obviously many practical issues to resolve, but it seems that the idea has enough potentially valuable benefits to warrant a vigorous exploration of the possibility.


James Kacki

Winnipeg

Is this James Kacki nuts or what.
I worked for a national retailer for some time and I assure you that regardless of what square footage may exist in the Bay Building or any other building for that fact, it's all irrelevant to IKEA.
IKEA has a philosophy and building model that work financially for them and their customers. Period.

[ihatesquirrels]

Could you imagine the changes The Bay would have to go through to better fit the model of what an IKEA store is supposed to look like?? Think of all that blue paint that would be needed!

http://img217.imageshack.us/img217/3217/thebayba2.jpg

[newflyer]

Sadly James Kacki has no idea what he is talking about..

even if the downtown Bay were available for free ... IKEA wouldn't even consider it for a second. As a matter of fact that site would be the last thing they would want.

They want to be on a major truck route, inside a building which is designed to meet there business model. The downtown Bay is nowhere even close to what they want. There store designs are specifically built in a method to suit the IKEA business model. For those of you who have never been in an IKEA it is not laid out like your typical store. It is built as a giant shopping exprience, walking customers through the store, from one department to the next, showcasing the products as the consumer is led through the store.

Just to be clear.. the Huton's Bay currently sells furniture from the downtown store and recieves next to no business.

Since James is in total fantasy world, perhaps he should push to have Shoppers Drug Mart or Ford Motors to move into the Bay too, while he wants to completely ignore business models of said retailers. I for one think having an IKEA in the downtown would be a huge mistake for downtown.. even if the bizaro world become reality and this very successful retailer threw out its proven business model for something that would simply fail in a few short months. Downtown doesn't need any more failed retailers .. it needs more people with money who want to live and work in the area. Portage Place was a huge failure, because the cart was placed before the horse. They had the big retailers, but no shoppers were available to support them... and thus many many failed. Attract the people first, build density and retailers will follow.... and even then IKEA would never consider the downtown Bay location. Not in a billion years, even if it were free.

[newflyer]

Whether IKEA downtown is realistic or not, I don't think anyone can disagree that having an IKEA store in downtown Winnipeg would go much farther in downtown retail rejuvenation than any other "downtown saviour" scheme that has been completed in the past 30 years.

It would be doomed before it would ever open ... and anybody who has a background in retail would know this.

There was a very similar magic bullet solution to this before ...

Portage Place was to be the savior of downtown, because it was full of top notch retailers when it first opened. Oh shoppers were to flood downtown to take in this new mall.

Many of those quality retailers died .. because there were not enough available shoppers, with disposible income. It later declined into a discount mall, as thats what the market could support. Portage Place has recieved a recent shot in the arm, as new retailers wanted to be near the new Hydro Tower, but it is still only a fraction of what it was envisioned to be when it first opened.

A store like IKEA will require many times the shoppers of Portage Place, hense the high population requirement, with a high disposible income. Many of those consumers live in the SW of the city.

[1ajs]

portage place left alot of retailers with a sour taste witch lead to the 90's and the big dead whole downtown was witch is slowly crawlying out of...

want downtown to be good suply the people in the downtown with what they need the exchange is filling the highend market of sorts... remeber downtown is a masive area.......

[newflyer]

P&M area has shown itself to be most fit to support high end retail in downtown, mostly due to the number of highly paid office workers above. I only wish there were a few more office towers around there, to attract more quality retailers.

[wags_in_the_peg]

portage place left alot of retailers with a sour taste witch lead to the 90's and the big dead whole downtown was witch is slowly crawlying out of...

want downtown to be good suply the people in the downtown with what they need the exchange is filling the highend market of sorts... remeber downtown is a masive area.......

portage place might have helped but what really killed retail downtown was the emergence of malls with acres of FREE parking. Who are we kidding, those with families would much rather park there car for FREE, and spenfd hours indoors going form store to store. Who enjoys circling around downtown for a parking spot, finding one, walking outdoors from store to store. I'm sorry people that is ok for destination stores like MEC, shops in exchange, etc but those service a small group of urban-minded poeple. Peggers (and many other NA cities) enjoy malls.

[Mininari]

Solution to the demise of downtown retail?
Build more condos, apartments, and get more people living down there. If there a local population, then businesses will only naturally follow. Look at the recent call for a grocery store for the exchange district. People who are within walking distance of a useful store will walk to it.

Shortly put, Winnipeg needs to turn up a notch their plans for the Exchange District, etc, cut red tape, and stop catering to every NIMBY group that ever existed (re: 100 Main Street project cancellation). And stop thinking that the ONLY solution to revitalizing downtown is more parking lots!

[1ajs]

bring more people continue the momentum more buises will move in to service them were in a transition point

[metonymy]

Back on topic...

The Plan Winnipeg Amendment required to rezone the land for this development was approved at Council yesterday. That's one of many hurdles cleared.

[viperred88]

FYI Its not I who wrote that letter but I am glad somebody wrote it. Its a nice feeling to not feel like the only one.

Come on now people, I am sure IKEA will have a warehouse somewheres by king edward (route 90) to store Items. It wouldn 't be efficient to have a highway tractor wait over the night to get unload when he could of unloaded at a warehouse. I don't think it holds true anymore that Ikea will only build by major truck routes if they are looking into setting up shop in downtown Toronto where its the most dense downtowns around and probably downtownVancouver as well. As was said before if Costco can work in downtown vancouver with the highway tractors deliveries and shoppers then why not ... Portage and main can handle the freight trucks just like portage and st james and empress can for loading up polo park mall.

I don't get the argument of many trucks having to load up the store since the Bay and Eatons and even concert event trucks get by for loading up at the MTS Centre never had a problem with it. I am not arguing downtown population after office hours wouldn 't support it but it would sure be a nice anchor to bring people downtown and mix it with with some some upper class apartement / condo towers. Perhaps build a mix-use building with residential towers overtop. This is how densify downtown by providing a variety services that no suburb does have.

.Friday's letter of the day..(from the FP)

An idea for IKEA

In response to the news that IKEA is moving to Winnipeg, and the discussion regarding its relationship to planning in Winnipeg, I offer this suggestion for consideration.

Our downtown is increasingly in a struggle to maintain its position of importance in the city as a whole. Retail is steadily moving to the outskirts (unfortunately) in a search for cheap land for the big-box model of contemporary retail. Presumably, that is also why IKEA chose its location on Sterling Lyon Parkway. However, there may be a possibility to satisfy both the needs of downtown and the commercial needs of IKEA. One of our downtown anchors, the Hudson Bay store, former retail giant of Western Canada, is in increasing danger of following in the doomed footsteps of our Eaton's store. It remains an important part of Winnipeg's built heritage. The Hudson Bay Co. store has a total of approximately 85,000 square feet per floor -- times six floors -- equals 510,000 square feet. Since the IKEA store plans a 350,000 square-foot-store, it would seem that the idea is at least worth some investigation.

There may also be space left over for a floor for the Hudson Bay Co. and perhaps also for a University of Winnipeg presence. This symbiotic relationship could help to bring downtown back to life in a dramatic way and provide IKEA with an iconic presence, a unique flagship in its chain of North American locations. The City of Winnipeg could save the reported $18 million of anticipated roadway /infrastructure costs. A portion of that amount could be offered as an incentive to IKEA in order to offset some of the renovation costs. Parking is available in the parkade, and there is truck access into the building.

There are obviously many practical issues to resolve, but it seems that the idea has enough potentially valuable benefits to warrant a vigorous exploration of the possibility.


James Kacki

Winnipeg

[h0twired]

FYI Its not I who wrote that letter but I am glad somebody wrote it. Its a nice feeling to not feel like the only one.

Come on now people, I am sure IKEA will have a warehouse somewheres by king edward (route 90) to store Items. It wouldn 't be efficient to have a highway tractor wait over the night to get unload when he could of unloaded at a warehouse. I don't think it holds true anymore that Ikea will only build by major truck routes if they are looking into setting up shop in downtown Toronto where its the most dense downtowns around and probably downtownVancouver as well. As was said before if Costco can work in downtown vancouver with the highway tractors deliveries and shoppers then why not ... Portage and main can handle the freight trucks just like portage and st james and empress can for loading up polo park mall.

I don't get the argument of many trucks having to load up the store since the Bay and Eatons and even concert event trucks get by for loading up at the MTS Centre never had a problem with it. I am not arguing downtown population after office hours wouldn 't support it but it would sure be a nice anchor to bring people downtown and mix it with with some some upper class apartement / condo towers. Perhaps build a mix-use building with residential towers overtop. This is how densify downtown by providing a variety services that no suburb does have.

.

*facepalm*

IKEA DOES NOT BUILD DOWNTOWN!

IKEA also DOES use their store as their warehouse as well. There is a HUGE loading bay behind the locations in Calgary and Edmonton. Everything gets shipped directly there.

The comparison is apples and orangutans.

Sure the Hudson Bay and Eaton's buildings have/had comparable square footage. However neither had/have ample warehouse and storage space or a large enough loading bay.

Most people who shop at IKEA move their own furniture. They bring their trucks, vans and roofracks and load up. There is a need for a parking lot and a loading bay for people to load up their vehicles. The Bay has a TINY furniture selection in comparison to IKEA and almost none of the furniture bought is cash and carry. Almost all of it is delivered after purchase.

You have 2 VERY different business models and for some reason morons time and time again compare ONLY the square footage of the building without even considering any of the hundreds of other factors involved.

[MolsonExport]

Ikea does not build downtown. Ikea's self-serve, destination-store concept is the antithesis of downtown shopping.

[jeremy_haak]

*facepalm*

IKEA DOES NOT BUILD DOWNTOWN!

IKEA also DOES use their store as their warehouse as well. There is a HUGE loading bay behind the locations in Calgary and Edmonton. Everything gets shipped directly there.

The comparison is apples and orangutans.

Sure the Hudson Bay and Eaton's buildings have/had comparable square footage. However neither had/have ample warehouse and storage space or a large enough loading bay.

Most people who shop at IKEA move their own furniture. They bring their trucks, vans and roofracks and load up. There is a need for a parking lot and a loading bay for people to load up their vehicles. The Bay has a TINY furniture selection in comparison to IKEA and almost none of the furniture bought is cash and carry. Almost all of it is delivered after purchase.

You have 2 VERY different business models and for some reason morons time and time again compare ONLY the square footage of the building without even considering any of the hundreds of other factors involved.

I have to agree. The only instance I can see IKEA abandoning it's traditional retail model (massive big box retail/warehouse store with easy highway access) is in a situation where they would try to target a demographic that is not being served under that model, namely, places with a massive downtown population that is unable to be served under that model. That is certainly not the case for Winnipeg.

[drew]

Ikea Lot ...Big, Big, Big

from CJOB (http://www.cjob.com/News/Local/Story.aspx?ID=1068965)

3/5/2009

It will be bigger than Polo Park, but smaller than Mall of America.

Thursday the City of Winnipeg published a report outlining further details of the major retail development planned for the corner of Sterling Lyon Parkway and Kenaston Boulevard. The anchor tenant will be Ikea. The city anticipates the site will get as many as 36-thousand unique visits on a given Saturday. Both streets will have to be widened. The lot will require 75-hundred parking spots.

Aside from Ikea opening in 2011, there's also expected to be a hotel, movie theatre and other outdoor stores.

[Only The Lonely..]

IKEA project to add $6M to city taxesCity, province to fork out $22M

By: Bartley Kives | Winnipeg Free Press - March 6, 2009



The city and province plan to shell out $22 million to allow the IKEA development to rise in southwest Winnipeg, but expect to recoup about $6 million a year in property and education taxes once the $400-million commercial development is completed in 2018.

The financial rationale behind the 1.5-million-square-foot project is part of a massive amount of information -- a 130-page planning report, a 65-page traffic-impact study, a 35-page retail land inventory and 17-page web presentation -- published by the city on Thursday as a prelude to a public hearing that will determine whether a new development larger than Polo Park can proceed at the southwest corner of Kenaston Boulevard and Sterling Lyon Parkway.

On March 11, the city will hold an open house about the IKEA development, which will see the Swedish-founded furniture giant serve as the 350,000-square-foot anchor tenant for a development that will also include a separate 200,000-square-foot big-box store, two stores in the 140,000 to 200,000- square-foot range, numerous smaller stores, a 500-unit condo development, a 100-room hotel, a 16-screen movie theatre and a 150,000-square-foot office park.

Then on March 18, city council's executive policy committee will hold a special meeting to consider a plan officially known as the Tuxedo Yards Redevelopment, which will redesignate city industrial land as mixed-use commercial land and formally approve a package of city and provincial economic incentives.

In order for the IKEA-led development to proceed, the project developer, Michael Nozick of Fairweather Properties, will spend $26.5 million to widen portions of Kenaston Boulevard, Sterling Lyon Parkway and Shaftesbury Boulevard, create approaches to the big-box development and erect new traffic signals, according to the planners' report published Thursday.

The city will pay the developer back $14 million plus interest, while the province will contribute $8 million toward the infrastructure work over three years, starting in 2010.

The developer will ultimately be responsible for $4.5 million worth of the roadwork and signalization, which the city and province claim were construction projects the city intended to make anyway.

According to the report, the city stands to earn $3.7 million of new municipal property taxes and business-tax revenue every year from the project, once it's completely built in 2018.

The province stands to earn an additional $2.23 million of education taxes from the project every year, the report adds.

Winnipeg Transit plans to extend its Crosstown West bus route to the IKEA project, while the city plans to build a 3.5-metre-wide asphalt bike-and-pedestrian path that will run throughout the development and connect to existing city active-transportation paths. No less than 50 bicycle parking spots will be on the site.

The city naturalist and parks planner has also studied the site and concluded it will not impact either the white-tailed deer population ("Fort Whyte Alive and Assiniboine Forest offer suitable and safer habitats") or the vegetation on the partly polluted scrublands destined to become parking lots and commercial buildings.

"Non-native species such as smooth brome, Kentucky bluegrass, and European buckthorn dominate the site," the city states on its website.

"Aspen stands on the southern portion of the site have a poorly developed understory with considerable dumping of concrete, wood, tires, and fence wire."

bartley.kives@freepress.mb.ca



When catalogues

just won't do

Here's your chance to read about IKEA, learn about IKEA and tell Mayor Sam Katz's cabinet whether to proceed with IKEA:



IKEA on the web

Read the web presentation: www.winnipeg.ca/ppd/planning/SterlingLyon/

Read the city planning report: www.winnipeg.ca/CLKDMIS/ViewDoc.asp?DocId=9077&SectionId=&InitUrl=



IKEA in person

Open house: Wednesday, March 11, 4 to 8 p.m.

Where: J.B. Mitchell School gymnasium,1720 John Brebeuf Place



IKEA at EPC

Public hearing: Wednesday, March 18, beginning at 9 a.m.

Where: City council building, 510 Main St.

[Only The Lonely..]

Winnipeg Transit plans to extend its Crosstown West bus route to the IKEA project, while the city plans to build a 3.5-metre-wide asphalt bike-and-pedestrian path that will run throughout the development and connect to existing city active-transportation paths. No less than 50 bicycle parking spots will be on the site.


How tragic.

This bus already goes nowhere as it zigs and zags back and forth through the Southwest.

I had the great misfortune of actually having to take this bus to my workplace in Fort Garry. It must have taken 30 mins to get from Polo Park to Waverly & McGillivary on a trip that ordinarily takes 10 mins by car.

And of course, I was the only passenger on the bus.

[Kinguni]

How tragic.

This bus already goes nowhere as it zigs and zags back and forth through the Southwest.



I was thinking the same thing as I read that. Should be a feeder bus doing the zigging and zagging, not a crosstown route, but it's the easy fix.

[viperred88]

actually eatons had a warehouse or two in downtown, ... one in the exchange.

I think there will come a time when cities will force people to use transit and charge a toll for using roadways like they do in London. It would be the only way to reduce congestion anywhere. I rhink sometime or other cities will demand that all big box stores provide underground parking and parkade depending on area in order to maximize the use of land. There will be a need of more land as suburban sprawl will be almost limited like in Portland. So those precious massive parking lots will have to be used as infill. Therefore bigbox stores will be forced to courier customer items like furniture, groceries, ...

__________________
A bit off note here: There will also be a law that would protect farm land from being development as its a much needed ressource as it would prohibit agressive urban sprawl from happening anymore.

I am sure ikea layout can change to multistorey like the bay. If a store cannot change with the times then they will be out of buisiness pretty fast. They must adapt to the needs of people and comply and planning laws . I think the best way to improve the bay store if you were to do what TV plans were for the bay building. He had cut a cross section through all the floors that were visible through glass. It gave it an noticeable appearance that there was a several floors. Hmmm its hard to explain his drawing so I hope you understand and saw his drawing from awhile back. I wish I had it to show you but anyhow I can Ikea having that kind of layout without the glass walls where you can hear people activities on several floors.

I just want this city to be prepared for the future and to better downtown.

*facepalm*

IKEA DOES NOT BUILD DOWNTOWN!

IKEA also DOES use their store as their warehouse as well. There is a HUGE loading bay behind the locations in Calgary and Edmonton. Everything gets shipped directly there.

The comparison is apples and orangutans.

Sure the Hudson Bay and Eaton's buildings have/had comparable square footage. However neither had/have ample warehouse and storage space or a large enough loading bay.

Most people who shop at IKEA move their own furniture. They bring their trucks, vans and roofracks and load up. There is a need for a parking lot and a loading bay for people to load up their vehicles. The Bay has a TINY furniture selection in comparison to IKEA and almost none of the furniture bought is cash and carry. Almost all of it is delivered after purchase.

You have 2 VERY different business models and for some reason morons time and time again compare ONLY the square footage of the building without even considering any of the hundreds of other factors involved.

[Only The Lonely..]

IKEA plan gets mixed reviews. Effect on neighbourhood a concern for many in attendance at open house

By: Bill Redekop | Winnipeg Free Press - March 12, 2009

And the verdict is... don't know.

People had a variety of opinions after having their first glimpse of IKEA-anchored development plans, at an open house at J.B. Mitchell School last night.

Darlene Delavau was excited about the plans. "I've been to many IKEA stores. They're huge. They're beautiful," she said.

She only hopes something is done to help seniors get around the store, which will be up to three times the size of a Wal-Mart. She suggested IKEA might supply motorized scooters for seniors, and maybe assist them in getting to and from their cars.

"They have to take into consideration the fact the population is aging," she said.

"All I can say is it's good for the economy," said Helen Sklavenitis, of the store that will be at the corner of Kenaston Boulevard and Sterling Lyon Parkway.

"If we didn't have this, we'd have to go to Edmonton or Toronto (for IKEA furniture). So this saves us a lot of money."

Bob Frost saw it differently. "It's an insult to injury with all these big box stores," muttered Frost, holding the Wednesday Free Press section that had the development diagram on front.

Frost doesn't want to see another retail development that increases dependence on motor vehicles and increases our "carbon footprint." IKEA is just one of several new big box stores that will be part of the development, called the Tuxedo Yards Redevelopment.

"It's hard to see all this gumbo turned for just another box store," he said.

Bike paths are planned all around the development but it's still a jaunt to get there, and there will be only one bus route to the shopping centre.

Many people in attendance had neighbourhood concerns. Debbie Hurrell said she was ecstatic to learn IKEA was coming to Winnipeg--until she heard it would be on Kenaston where she lives.

"I love IKEA but I'm worried about the traffic," she said. "Kenaston is already nuts with traffic."

Frank and Leanne Maclean only learned on March 5 that the proposal would see big box stores, other than IKEA, located just across the CN Rail tracks from their house.

They believe the rear of those buildings will act like a wall that ricochets train noise back at them.

They're also worried about noise like that from building air conditioning, refrigeration, and trucks loading and unloading all night with their backup signals beeping.

Ken Klassen, an urban activist, said the IKEA store is "the Trojan Horse" to get the other retail development approved.

IKEA only makes up 20-25 per cent of the 1.5 million square feet of retail space being proposed. The largest retail centre in North America, Mall of America in Bloomington, Minnesota, is 2.5 million square feet.

Klassen accused the city of trying to rush the plan through before people can study it. The formal public hearing is March 18 at city hall.

"In Winnipeg, because we're so desperate for development, we always rush the process," he said.

Meanwhile, Stefanie Fry, 18, seemed a bit young to be at the Open House but she's excited about the furniture store coming, too. That seems part of the IKEA mystique.

Stefanie has already purchased a desk from IKEA, and said her sister up north in Gillam ordered lots of IKEA furniture by mail order.

bill.redekop@freepress.mb.ca

[Only The Lonely..]

Darlene Delavau was excited about the plans. "I've been to many IKEA stores. They're huge. They're beautiful," she said.


Yes, this will be a magnificent structure won't it?

I'm sure the architecture of this IKEA will give many of the buildings in the exchange a run for their money.

In my humble opinion, the big blue windowless siding is a nice homage to the neo-classical big box style.

But at the same time, the sweeping vista created by the 7,300 stalls of surface parking also seems to quietly suggest 'fuck you' to the idea of living in a more urban realm.

Tres Bien..

:rolleyes:

[rgalston]

I love open houses, if only to hear the retarded comments from the "facilitators" and the public alike, and of course to see Ken Klassen walk around with a stressed look.


She only hopes something is done to help seniors get around the store, which will be up to three times the size of a Wal-Mart. She suggested IKEA might supply motorized scooters for seniors, and maybe assist them in getting to and from their cars.

"They have to take into consideration the fact the population is aging," she said.
Well, seeing as seniors are IKEA's target demographic (and the only shoppers I see when I'm at the store in Bloomingdale), so I'm sure the IKEA people will get right on that one.


Many people in attendance had neighbourhood concerns. Debbie Hurrell said she was ecstatic to learn IKEA was coming to Winnipeg--until she heard it would be on Kenaston where she lives.

"I love IKEA but I'm worried about the traffic," she said. "Kenaston is already nuts with traffic."


Where did you think it was going to go? Downtown? McPhillips? Kenaston isn't exactly uncharted big-box territory.

[h0twired]

Well, seeing as seniors are IKEA's target demographic (and the only shoppers I see when I'm at the store in Bloomingdale), so I'm sure the IKEA people will get right on that one.

I never see seniors shopping at IKEA in Calgary.

Always the 20-30 something crowd.

[rrskylar]

^ So wisdom comes with age holds true, is there another store with so much hype and so little quality as IKEA?

[harls]

I never see seniors shopping at IKEA in Calgary.

Always the 20-30 something crowd.

I always play 'count the pregnant women'. Never disappointed.

[Only The Lonely..]

Residents worry Ikea development is being rushed

Last Updated: Thursday, March 12, 2009 | 3:24 PM CT - CBC Manitoba

A residents' group from South Tuxedo wants more time to consider the impact of Ikea's arrival in Winnipeg.

The plan calls for the Swedish furniture giant to be part of a larger development near Kenaston Boulevard and Sterling Lyon Parkway.

The public will get its first say about the plan at a hearing at city hall next Wednesday, but some residents want more time to consider the impact of the proposed multimillion-dollar development that calls for 1.5-million square feet of retail and office space covering nearly 200 acres.

It would take 12 years to complete the entire development, which will be done in stages, starting next year with the Ikea property.

An open house was held Wednesday night at J.B. Mitchell School where the plans were on display. Several people also signed a petition calling for noise-reduction measures to be put in place between the development and residential neighbourhoods.

"We are calling for a delay in the public hearing. They should give us more time to digest this and ask questions to make sure that any development that we get there, [we] get it right," said Ken Klassen, a spokesperson for the residents' group from River Heights-Fort Garry.

"Quite frankly, we doubt the councillors themselves understand what they are voting for. There has been so little time for people to analyze these hundreds and hundreds of pages of information," he added.

Resident Luc Lewandoski wants an Ikea store in the city and likes the idea of commercial growth if it's well-planned, he told CBC News.

"There are certain areas, and traffic is one of them, where I would rather they put more time in on the traffic planning than they did for the active transit," he said. "I can't imagine that many people are going to the Ikea on their bicycle to pick up a shelf."

Debbie Hurrell, who lives on Kenaston Boulevard, said the big development would be just part of the traffic problem. She also expressed concerns about thousands of homes planned for just beyond the development.

"When Waverley West [suburb] is really fully developed, what's that going to do?" she asked.

The candidates fighting to fill the vacant city council seat in the March 17 byelection in the River Heights-Fort Garry ward, also weighed in on the issue at a debate earlier this week.

Geoff Currier said the Ikea development is a great opportunity for the city. He said Winnipeg will suffer serious damage and reduce its chances of attracting other large companies if it blows the deal.

"If Manitoba and Winnipeg chase a $400-million project out of town, not only will we never get a development from these people again, nobody will come to Winnipeg," he said.

But fellow candidate John Orlikow echoed residents' concerns that the city may be moving too fast.

"The drive to make sure this is an economic boom for us is very enticing, but governance requires a sombre second thought," he said.


-----------------------------
Select Comments from Story:

Tennisnut wrote:
I can't believe it, I live in River Heights and I am extremely excited about Ikea coming to Winnipeg. For one it will create an enormous amount of jobs of which the residence's families will benefit from. The city will benefit due to business and property taxes. Manitobans will benefit from the economical pricing of goods that Ikea provides. We should be welcoming these big enterprises at this time, not to deter them. What small town thinking.

BlueBomerFan

Just more dumb people trying to take jobs away from much starving Manitobans. We need more stores, infustructure, homes, built everywhere!
We should be a booming province, no excuses like Ontario crying about a dying industry. We are the West and we are STRONG.


winnipeg52
Just what Winnipeg needs a "BIG" made in China furniture / junk store! We already have 4or5 Wal-Marts thanks. And do we not have 3-4 furniture makers right here in Manitoba ! Think about there jobs ! They are already being laid off at Palliser Furniture. Support Canadian business's not foreigners ! "BUY CANADIAN WHEN POSSIBLE"

RossAngeles
You guys have it all wrong-the Ikea here in Calgary is a complete nightmare. It's way too big, the parking lot is a disaster and access is retarded. It started out as an empty field too and it's a catastrophe...I hate going there.

cprtrain wrote:

Build it! It will be good for the economy.

This is why Winnipeg never gets anything done. Rremember all theproblems when we needed to tear down the Eaton store?

Get with it and buid it. We need improvements with Kenaston. this development will kick start this road work.


dillhole wrote:
Once again the city of winnipeg is trying to shove big box into a area that is allready congested.Take a look at Polo Park or Regent east.It's hard enough to get through most of these places at 11 in the morning,never mind the busy seasons.Winnipeg has no concept how to lay out major shopping centers or streets at the best of times.Take a big concept like this and maybe move it to the edge of the city where traffic may not be so much of an issue.Anybody living here knows that winnipeg is the red light,stop and go capital of canada.

[1ajs]

there any photos on the net at all for this thing i saw some vage clips on ctv tonight but nothing to get shots of blah

[SpongeG]

most stores look the same these days

probably something like this - two floors of retail over the parking

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2405/2184770178_5e68dd5de0_o.jpg

this one in Minnesota is pretty much identical to the one in Coquitlam

http://www.pfeiler.us/gallery/main.php?g2_view=core.DownloadItem&g2_itemId=4860&g2_serialNumber=2

[1ajs]

i caught a glimps of a rendering but there was some dude in the way and it was so fast i didnt get much

the residents to the north are woried about noise bouncing back at them cause of the buildings along the tracks......... and asking for a walls to cut back on it wtf i live near the tracks it aint that bad hell theres times u can hear a pin drop

[rrskylar]

most stores look the same these days

probably something like this - two floors of retail over the parking

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2405/2184770178_5e68dd5de0_o.jpg

this one in Minnesota is pretty much identical to the one in Coquitlam

http://www.pfeiler.us/gallery/main.php?g2_view=core.DownloadItem&g2_itemId=4860&g2_serialNumber=2

.......Oh, the bad memory of having wasted two hours of my life in those two particular stores!

[viperred88]

its a nice touch that they have parking under the building.

[viperred88]

let me see we are going to rebuild a freeway of a bridge the Disraeli and we have a downtown that can handle about 50 000 suv driving suburbanites.

And we can't allocate some of the funds for the road expansion of sterling and kenaston to the disraeli rehab. hmmm

we have multiple roadways downtown that allow for quick and entrance and exits to downtown thats alot better than st james or how sterling and keneston could ever be. Plus we have transit hub downtown that go and from any area of the city.

[1ajs]

big box like being with other big box so they can draw off the other big box vise versa

[viperred88]

downtown is losing out big time for not having Ikea as a new anchor to downtown. What ever happened to all those so called tax incentives to revitalize downtown like they did with the MTS Centre. With those tax incentives they could build a couple of mix-use parkades. St marys road could be tunneled therefore people can push there shopping carts the parkades or you can build a catwalk (bridge) over the road leading into the parkade.

Those tax incentives would help compete with the cheap land in the suburbs.

Another Ideal location for ikea in downtown would be to have ikea in the Bay building since the bay is downsizing its existence downtown down two floors. The bay could move into city place mall. (they would have to renovate the mall to accomodate the bay but thats goes without saying.) If that opportunity don't work then Ikea could retrofit or build on the canada post site off graham.

it seems its all too late as it seems ikea is getting fasttracked regardless of public consultation:hell: :koko:

[RAFS]

there any photos on the net at all for this thing i saw some vage clips on ctv tonight but nothing to get shots of blah
I went to the open house and took my wife's camera (and I knew I should have taken the extra battery!). I got 2 shots with the camera, then the rest I took with my iPhone. They are not great, but here they are. I have also included a scan of the 2 letters the residents were giving out, about the "free" wall they would like built.

There were more pictures I should have taken, but the gentleman from MMM Group (http://www.mmm.ca) said he would look at getting this information put onto the city website.

Again, I apologize for the crappy pictures!

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3030/3351631976_92890cd239_b.jpg

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3634/3350809171_1a1c619348_b.jpg

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3600/3350808075_e9dd35697e_b.jpg

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3599/3350807819_e1c8ab9248_b.jpg

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3660/3350807671_07e0190418_b.jpg

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3618/3350809373_39dab7cc4b_b.jpg

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3557/3351632934_47f480dc9f_b.jpg

[flatlander]

Oh, pity the poor residents of south Tuxedo, complaining about increased traffic. The irony!

At least I think it's ironic - i an never tell anymore since that stupid Alanis song.

[1ajs]

lame we don't have a wall along cp... just a fence

[1ajs]

only thing on the cities site is this transit thing... so people will be able to bus right to the doors of ikea :P
http://img165.imageshack.us/img165/3549/siteplan.jpg


that parking lot is so going to be grid lock if they do the entry and exit like that let alone are fire trucks even going to be able to get in there?

[c vist]

I love open houses ...
and of course to see Ken Klassen walk around with a stressed look.
:haha:

[MooseJets]

Oh, pity the poor residents of south Tuxedo, complaining about increased traffic. The irony!

At least I think it's ironic - i an never tell anymore since that stupid Alanis song.

Increased traffic = growing city = progress. If they can't accept that then they can move to the country.

[Andy6]

Increased traffic = growing city = progress. If they can't accept that then they can move to the country.

If they "can't accept" it, they have the right to campaign against it as every other citizen has the right to campaign against whatever they "can't accept". It is not a requirement of living in a city that you have to accept development proposals that would reduce your enjoyment of life in the name of the idol of "progress".

[Only The Lonely..]

Yeesh. Jane Jacobs is probably rolling in her grave..


http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3030/3351631976_92890cd239_b.jpg

[vid]

If they got rid of the store they would have even more parking! :yes:

I like how in that diagram there are only about a dozen cars in the whole parking lot.

[Only The Lonely..]

If they got rid of the store they would have even more parking! :yes:

I like how in that diagram there are only about a dozen cars in the whole parking lot.

Hey, that's Winnipeg...each car needs a 10 stall buffer zone around it.

You know, in case you wanted to take your Corvette or rusted (vintage) '89 Buick Century to do some discount furniture shopping.

[viperred88]

well atleast someone in this believes in my idea of ikea in downtown.

shidelman you profitting jack ass
---------
wfp
Saturday Special
Thinking outside the big box
They dominate today's retail scene, but are they here to stay?
Bartley Kives
1:00 AM | Comments (1)
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The former Linens ’n Things on St. James Street has found a new tenant. But U.S. centres are finding a problem with big boxes remaining empty. ( KEN GIGLIOTTI / WINNIPEG FREE PRESS)
FIVE years ago, writer and artist Julia Christensen looked around her hometown of Bardstown, Ky. and noticed two big empty build ings where Wal-Marts used to stand.
The first wound up being bulldozed. The second remains empty. And a third, larger Wal-Mart stands on the edge of town.
Inspired by the comings and goings of the world's best-known big-box chain, Christensen travelled to 50 U.S. cities and towns to find out what happens when massive retailers pack up and leave their big-box shells behind.
"These buildings always last longer than the businesses they were built for. It is inevitable they will be abandoned," said the author of
Big Box Reuse
, which chronicles how 14 communities converted their empty Wal-Mart and Kmart superstores into the likes of schools, churches and seniors' centres.
In the case of Bardstown, business at Wal-Mart was booming and the chain outgrew its downtown space. But other North American big-box retailers are reeling from the combined effects of the worldwide recession and changing consumer tastes.
Linens 'n Things filed for bankruptcy last October and Circuit City followed suit in January. As many as 14,000 U.S. retail stores may close in 2009, CNN has reported, compounding big-box vacancies at shopping malls and retail power centres.
Even in relatively recession-proof Canada, home-improvement chains are scaling back big-box expansions and planning to open smaller stores to cater to younger consumers who want to spend less time wandering around retail aisles, the Toronto Star reported last week.
The future of the big box, which has ruled the retail roost for nearly two decades in North America, is beginning to come into question, even as developers plan to build thousands more of the massive stores.
In Winnipeg, a joint venture between developer Fairweather Properties and European furniture giant IKEA could place up to 10 new big-box stores -- including a 350,000-square-foot IKEA anchor tenant -- on 197 acres of industrial land at Kenaston Boulevard and Sterling Lyon Parkway.
The $400-million Tuxedo Yards Redevelopment, which faces a public hearing at city hall on Wednesday, has politicians excited about the potential addition of $6 million a year in new property, business and education taxes, once the entire development is built out in 2018.
The city and province are prepared to spend $22 million on infrastructure improvements to make the IKEA project happen. But critics say politicians should demand something more than mere development in return.
"I think IKEA is a great idea. The issue is what happens around the IKEA store," said Doug Corbett, an award-winning architect at Winnipeg firm Smith Carter, who began his career designing shopping malls before specializing in sustainable building projects.
Instead of placing big-box stores in the middle of a sea of asphalt, the city should demand more landscaping, less homogenous buildings and a site design that encourages consumers to walk, instead of drive, from store to store, Corbett said.
Developers stopped building indoor shopping malls when they realized it was cheaper to develop big-box pads, which can be built out in stages and don't require as much maintenance or security.
But just as shopping malls have fallen in and out of vogue -- Winnipeg's Unicity Mall was razed, for example -- the time will come when shoppers begin to think outside the big box, Corbett added.
"They'll be in trouble in a few years, just like the malls. It will be based on consumer habits. People will realize they simply don't need so much stuff," he said.
In the U.S., where big-box vacancy is a genuine problem, communities and non-profit organizations struggle to find new uses for massive buildings abandoned by retail chains, said author Christensen.
As a result, communities should demand more concessions from big-box developers from the outset, she said. Multiple facades will allow big boxes to be reused more often, while landscaping and berms can allow the structures to better fit in with the future urban landscape, she suggested.
But right now, major players in the retail industry are not convinced the end of big-box retailing is nigh, especially north of the 49th parallel.
"I think it's the only game in town at the moment," said John Winter, president of Toronto retail-analysis firm John Winter & Associates, who believes tougher planning regulations in Canada have prevented big-box stores from oversaturating the retail market the way they have in the United States.
During a recession, consumers seek out the savings offered at big-box stores, Winter said. And he rejects the idea consumers are becoming more interested in independent retailers or pedestrian-friendly shopping environments.
"There is this mythology of going back the good old days," he said. "That isn't real. Consumers like choice."
In Winnipeg, pedestrian-friendly developments simply don't perform as well as vehicle-friendly power centres, added Sandy Shindleman, president of Shindico, one of the city's largest and most successful developers.
He cautioned against comparing Winnipeg to denser North American cities such as Vancouver, where some big-box stores are stacked above each other and even IKEA shoppers take public transit to the furniture store and have their purchases delivered.
"In a winter climate, people want more ready access to the stores. Half the year, you can't meander outside," said Shindleman, who does not believe his industry should face more regulation in favour of pedestrian access or other design concessions.
"If we don't have the opportunity to accommodate large retailers, we'll get left behind," he said. "The choice isn't whether people will go to Tuxedo Yards or across the street. It'll be whether they go to Winnipeg, or Minneapolis or Milwaukee."
But even proponents of big-box stores acknowledge the detrimental effects of the developments on the environment. While Wal-Mart has taken big strides toward energy savings, there is no question about the effects of massive parking lots and the greenhouse gases required to get vehicles to fill them.
"You're putting up a few acres of asphalt on moose pasture," joked retail analyst Winter.
Critics such as architect Corbett were even more scathing. "I think it's horrendous: A lot of big, open parking lots between buildings. No landscaping at all," he said, surmising there could have been a way to convince IKEA to set up downtown.
Author Christensen, meanwhile, believes cities should eventually find the gumption to say no to more big boxes.
"We have to stop building these buildings. They're environmentally unfriendly and they're not friendly to pedestrians or communities," she said.
But that isn't likely to happen as long as demand remains high and taxes continue to flow from big boxes.
"In general, the public likes them," said Shindico president Shindleman. "For all the efforts of planners, everywhere in North America, the projects that are successful financially are the ones that are successful for the taxation authorities and the lenders."
bartley.kives@freepress.mb.ca

Building a bigger box
Facts about the IKEA project, officially known as the Tuxedo Yards Redevelopment, which faces a public hearing at city hall on Wednesday:
Location: 197 acres of land at on either side of Sterling Lyon Parkway, west of Kenaston Boulevard.
Owner: Kenaston Intermodal and a numbered company owned by Kenaston Intermodal's owners, Wayne and Garth Nemy.
Developers: Fairweather Properties and IKEA Canada, who plan to buy the land and subdivide it into 31 lots.
Proposed development: 1.5 million square feet of commercial space, including a 350,000-square-foot IKEA store, a 200,000-square-foot big-box store, two big boxes larger than 140,000 square feet and several smaller stores.
Possible development in addition to commercial space: A 16-screen movie theatre, a 100-room hotel, a 500-unit condo building and a 150,000-square-foot office park.
Development schedule: 2010-2018, pending approval.
Assessed value of the existing land: $5 million.
Taxes paid last year: $213,000.
Proposed value of land, once the project is built out: $139.5 million.
Possible taxes, once the project is built out: $6 million.
Road improvements required for project: $26.5 million worth of street widenings, new turning lanes and new signals on Sterling Lyon Parkway, Kenaston Boulevard and Shaftesbury Boulevard.
City and provincial portion of roadwork: $22 million ($14 million from city, $8 million from the province).
Parking stalls: 7,517 over entire development.
Bike and pedestrian access: 3.5-metre-wide asphalt paths.
Winnipeg Transit access: Crosstown West route, initially.

[Only The Lonely..]

Tuxedo Yards; the challenge

Winnipeg Free Press Editorial - March 14, 2009


There is no "normal" way of approving a development like the proposed Tuxedo Yards Redevelopment, which is steaming toward approval at city hall with such Titanic inertia that it seems unstoppable. Which is not to say that it should be stopped, but it is to say that full-speed ahead is not the most prudent course to set, as the current economic crisis and history attest.

As conceived, Tuxedo Yards is a commercial colossus by any standard, and certainly by the standards of Winnipeg. At 1.5 million square feet of commercial space, it is the largest commercial development in Winnipeg's history, eclipsing the reigning and nearby champ, Polo Park, at 1.3 million square feet. It will cost a projected $400 million to build over 10 years and requires the city to upend its long-term plan and rethink its infrastructure priorities.

The stack of paper reports and documents made available in advance of the single hearing scheduled for public review of the project indicates that much careful thought has gone into it over a long period of time, all of it, unfortunately, behind closed doors. The material was publicly posted March 5, three months after the announcement in December that the project existed and would be anchored by an IKEA store. The release came a scant 13 days in advance of the public hearing, but astonishingly 11 days earlier than required, apparently an acknowledgement that more time than usual will be required for the public to come to grips with the implications of so great an undertaking.

Critics of secrecy, the city's often uninspired planning and of elected officials who seem open for business at any cost have rightly complained that it appears the project is being rammed down Winnipeg's throat with take it or leave it brinksmanship.

They correctly point out that the hearing is overloaded with far too many complex issues -- rezonings, variances, agreements and studies (20 not counting sub-agreements) -- to be adequately and critically reviewed in a single day. This public review process is woefully inadequate for a project of this size, one that will affect development and transportation planning forever. It reflects a political arrogance and condescension that is shameful. If it is that the city cannot expand the time for hearings because it has agreed in secret not to, then the shame should fall on the mayor's office and its occupants. Councillors should look closely at a recent report calling for more, not less, public scrutiny at city hall.

Public review, however, is about process and transparency. What of the project itself as presented in some 300 pages of city documents?

Well, obviously, it is big -- or rather, it is big on the drawing board. That at once represents some of the risks and the benefits involved. The site is huge, 200 acres of largely "vacant" land that, oddly, is close to the centre of the city relative to the miles of developing commercial and residential sprawl south of it. It is situated, in fact, to take advantage of sprawl, not to add to it.

While "progressive" thinkers see the project as a betrayal of promises to plan "green," to incorporate more not less public transportation into development, to shrink rather than expand concrete footprints, to put downtown first and more, the fact is that those trains left the station when the Doer government decided to make Crown land the agent of change for sprawling Waverley West.

The infrastructure that is now needed to accommodate that decision might be wasteful and environmentally unfriendly, but it now is needed and will serve the Tuxedo Yards site whether or not it is developed. Kenaston Boulevard, for example, must expand to serve southwestern sprawl with or without IKEA. Tuxedo Yards might speed up the time frame for more paved lanes on existing routes, but it will not create the need.

What it will do is require some new routes, eventually, like a link to Pembina Highway from Waverley Street, and, immediately, a massive expansion of Sterling Lyon Parkway at a cost of $14 million. The developer agrees to pay those costs up front to ensure the expanded roadways are in place before they are actually needed so that they will be there as they are needed. That means that in the unlikely event that no other big box development joins IKEA in Tuxedo Yards, streets immediately serving the site will be overbuilt. That is a risk to both the developer and the city, which has agreed to pay back $14 million in property tax revenues as development grows. But if the project is the success that is imagined, it also means that the capital investment will occur at no loss of existing revenues to the city. Not a bad thing.

And because the development will occur over at least a decade, it means that traffic loads should grow slowly and create time to expand Waverley and Kenaston in a manageable way. Also not a bad thing.

Troubling is the city's assertion that the current low expectations for annual commercial construction are suddenly very optimistic, in line with what would justify 1.5 million new square feet at Tuxedo Yards without harming existing commercial enterprise. The Winnipeg Chamber of Commerce could usefully analyze that claim for the comfort of its members and citizens generally who do not want to see neighbourhood commerce move and concentrate in south Winnipeg.

Other interest groups could usefully examine issues in which they have expertise. Is the very modest transit service plan sufficient? What does it mean that the development would have no negative environmental consequences? Is there sufficient attention being paid to landscaping and screening or are we about to get another Regent Avenue?

There isn't much time. What there is could be used effectively if interest groups concentrate on narrow issues of which they have expertise rather than reaching for broad brushes with which to paint unrealistic alternatives.


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Comments

Posted by:gepinniwMarch 14, 2009 at 9:37 AM
Thank you for exposing the scandalously perfunctory consultation process. City Hall and the province should be deeply ashamed. But while you may accept Waverley West as fait accompli - I and many others do not. You also seem to accept the idea that the developers will "pay" for the necessary infrastructure. This is laughable. What your analysis does not take into account are the externalized costs that this development requires - the cost to the environment and human health (physical and mental), primarily. The writing is on the wall. We are running into very real ecological limits. According to Eva Pip, lake Winnipeg is "dying." Is she some wild- eyed radical? Worldwide oil production has likely hit the "bumpy plateau" predicted by Hubbert. Respected scientists and thinkers the world over are calling for a radical departure from this kind of development. But we, as Winnipeggers, don't seem to be listening. How sad for future generations that we continue to pursue what I would call "development for the desperate."

[newflyer]

:previous:

Lake Winnipeg is dieing more due to farm chemicals and not because of Swedish furnitire stores, but hey don't let that stop the typical whiner from complaining the city is growing.

I am really looking forward to seeing Route 90 widened and expanded in the coming years.. and if possibile I will be at the Grand Opening of this IKEA. :yes:

[1ajs]

:previous:

Lake Winnipeg is dieing more due to farm chemicals and not because of Swedish furnitire stores, but hey don't let that stop the typical whiners from complaining the city is growing.

I am really looking forward to seeing Route 90 widened and expanded in the coming years.. and if possibile I will be at the Grand Opening of this IKEA. :yes:
when ikea opens that area is going to be one traffic mess

[newflyer]

when ikea opens that area is going to be one traffic mess

I seriously doubt that.... that area needed to be upgraded regardless, but this will move that up by a number of years. Its all good.

[1ajs]

I seriously doubt that.... that area needed to be upgraded regardless, but this will move that up by a number of years. Its all good.
indeed but its going to be stupid on opening day...

i would not be surprized if the store is cleaned out on opening day :wizard:

[c vist]

In Calgary, the parking is almost identical to the proposed winnipeg store, and it is more than half used most of the time and very full on weekends.

As for traffic congestion, I have never seen more than 3 or 4 cars waiting to enter or exit the store at one time ... this is not like 50 drivers suddenly entering the roadway. The Tim Horton's drive thrus are a bigger problem, as I see it, on traffic loading problems in the city than a retail store that traps you for at least an hour. The real problem is the cluster mall with inadequate public transit, not an IKEA store alone.

[1ajs]

u ever been on regent?

[c vist]

u ever been on regent?

Regent is not a 1 store problem, it is a planning disaster.

In Calgary, you don't access the IKEA directly off of a major artery ... an offramp from the Deerfoot, to a feeder street, to another. Winnipeg should rethink traffic access to major shopping centres from major arteries ... an access to a mall every 50 metres is not working very well.

[1ajs]

crossroad station at the lights is hoird

[Only The Lonely..]

IKEA should be downtown, not at 'worst' site

By: Charles Huband | Winnipeg Free Press Opinion Piece - MArch 17, 2009

Why do we accommodate IKEA to the detriment of the city of Winnipeg?

It makes no sense from a planning standpoint to locate an IKEA store on what is already a thoroughfare that is overcrowded with traffic. I cannot imagine an urban planner recommending a site on Kenaston Boulevard, a street that is already over-burdened with traffic, and soon to become worse with the development of the Kapyong military site to the north, and the Waverley West housing development to the south.

Make no mistake, when the Kapyong property is developed, as it ultimately will be, it will constitute another major residential and commercial development along Kenaston Boulevard, and increase the traffic congestion that is already stifling.

It is not only the IKEA store, but also its retinue of those who wish to be close to this magnet of potential big spenders. There is to be a new hotel nearby, and heaven knows who else will want to join the party -- the developer hopes for well over one million square feet of retail and residential space.

Let there be no doubt that Kenaston Boulevard will be jammed with traffic even without an IKEA outlet. Consider: Kenaston serves the region of the ever more important and growing airport facility, the Polo Park shopping area, the Grant Avenue/Kenaston shopping area, the ugly box stores at Kenaston and McGillivray, leading on to the University of Manitoba and Waverley West. When a decision is eventually made for the use of the former military property, Kenaston will be close to a disaster area. But sane people are actually thinking of adding the heaviest traffic draw imaginable.

I understand the love-in with IKEA. What I do not understand is why the store would be allowed to locate in this location. At a time when environmental concerns are of growing importance, it would make much more sense to locate the store in a more central location where it could be best served by transit routes, and hopefully some form of rapid transit. The Kenaston location means that virtually every IKEA customer will be travelling a considerable distance by car. The chosen site is about 10 kilometres from the city centre, which means that potential customers from the north and northeast parts of the urban area will be driving considerable distances, burning fuel and spewing greenhouse gases to get to their destination.

I can well understand why IKEA would like the idea of a suburban location focused in the most affluent segment of the urban area. A few condos, a hotel, and some other satellite box stores will add to the attraction. But is there not a better choice?

In Toronto, the IKEA store is miles to the west of the city centre, just off the Gardiner Expressway. In Toronto, it means nothing that the IKEA store is out in the suburban reaches. The downtown centre is so massive and so full of energy that a relatively small shopping magnet along the Queen's Way poses no problem. But a similar shopping magnet in southwest Winnipeg will likely be destructive to the city core.

Would it not be preferable to invite IKEA to consider a city-centre site? The present Hudson Bay store might well be available at a reasonable price, with a large parking facility attached. Or consider the property to be vacated by Canada Post between Graham Avenue and St. Mary Avenue, and between Smith Street and Garry.

These city-centre locations have the advantage of being more central for motorists from all directions, thus cutting the energy usage of shoppers. If our society is serious about environmental concerns, let us start thinking about the location of facilities that will generate motor vehicle visits that ensure shorter trips. More importantly, let us locate these magnets of interest and commerce where they can be conveniently reached by users of transit (and hopefully rapid transit.)

The city fathers, together with provincial authorities, have been working diligently to revitalize the downtown core of the city over the last several years, with some measure of success. The Hydro head office is extremely helpful.

CentreVenture has a continuing mandate to generate new developments, but progress is slow. It is difficult to move forward on such simple projects as the Mitchell Copp Building and the Avenue Building.

And now we contemplate moving in the opposite direction as the entire axis of the city is altered, as it surely will be, by making Kenaston Boulevard the retail focus of the urban area.

It is difficult to understand the enthusiasm members of city council given their acknowledged responsibility to city-centre revitalization. The press releases all stress the plan to subsidize the IKEA development, but with the expectation of recouping taxes once the development is operational. Has the possibility been considered that substantial tax revenues could be generated by a downtown IKEA development, but without the enormous subsidy?

Of course, IKEA might not be interested in a downtown location. While I like the idea of an IKEA store and the attraction it would have for both our own, and shoppers from distant regions, the price of a retail superstore in the worst of all possible locations is too great a price to pay.


Charles Huband is a former justice on the Manitoba Court of Appeal and a former leader of the Manitoba Liberal Party.

[harls]

In Toronto, the IKEA store is miles to the west of the city centre, just off the Gardiner Expressway. In Toronto, it means nothing that the IKEA store is out in the suburban reaches. The downtown centre is so massive and so full of energy that a relatively small shopping magnet along the Queen's Way poses no problem. But a similar shopping magnet in southwest Winnipeg will likely be destructive to the city core.

actually, there's an Ikea just off the Sheppard subway line in North York.

[blake10]

^How many times is the FP going to print the same old, same old "Ikea should be built downtown" pieces? It's not going to happen! I also predict that if the store was built downtown, that it would be a total failure.

[thegreattait]

^How many times is the FP going to print the same old, same old "Ikea should be built downtown" pieces? It's not going to happen! I also predict that if the store was built downtown, that it would be a total failure.

I disagree, I think you could put Ikea anywhere and it would thrive as the demand in Winnipeg is very large. Heck you could build it in Selkirk and it would thrive. (if "it's worth the trip to Steinbach" I'm sure it would be too for selkirk...lol:haha: )

In all seriousness though, Ikea downtown is not going to happen, there is no vacant land that would be large enough to accomodate one of their stores without a major redesign. They aren't going to bother with the expense or effert required to try and fit this store downtown, especially since our downtown doesn't have a large population that would justify the additional expense of putting it there. The people who will be purchasing IKEA furniture currently live in the burbs, think of all the Bricks and leons, United furniture wearhouse etc etc. how many of them are downtown. You'd have better luck convincing the brick to move into the Bay then you would Ikea.

[Andy6]

actually, there's an Ikea just off the Sheppard subway line in North York.

True, although IKEA was there for decades before the subway was built. The Queensway IKEA is just a few years old.

Most people who go to IKEA will go with a car anyway, since you invariably end up buying a bunch of their cheap household items that wouldn't justify paying their delivery fee.

[1ajs]

anyone going to go down to city hall tomarrow morning and get a look at this stuff?

[blake10]

I disagree, I think you could put Ikea anywhere and it would thrive as the demand in Winnipeg is very large. Heck you could build it in Selkirk and it would thrive. (if "it's worth the trip to Steinbach" I'm sure it would be too for selkirk...lol:haha: )

In all seriousness though, Ikea downtown is not going to happen, there is no vacant land that would be large enough to accomodate one of their stores without a major redesign. They aren't going to bother with the expense or effert required to try and fit this store downtown, especially since our downtown doesn't have a large population that would justify the additional expense of putting it there. The people who will be purchasing IKEA furniture currently live in the burbs, think of all the Bricks and leons, United furniture wearhouse etc etc. how many of them are downtown. You'd have better luck convincing the brick to move into the Bay then you would Ikea.

While I think Ikea would draw people wherever it went, I think people would certainly go less often if the store were located downtown. You might get people from out of town, but many locals will find it too much of a pain. And lets face it...since when has Ikea been geared towards transit riders? How many people are going to be transporting their furniture purchases on a bus or light rail? It’s a store made for SUVs and pick-ups.

[c vist]

Charles Huband is a former justice on the Manitoba Court of Appeal and a former leader of the Manitoba Liberal Party.
... and a man who has no grasp on reality!

Bottom line is that there is no good location for IKEA in our poorly planned City that will meet everyones needs. I don't know why he doesn't apply, in his understanding, the same congestion problems he cites will happen at Kenaston to downtown ...

[Andy6]

While I think Ikea would draw people wherever it went, I think people would certainly go less often if the store were located downtown. You might get people from out of town, but many locals will find it too much of a pain. And lets face it...since when has Ikea been geared towards transit riders? How many people are going to be transporting their furniture purchases on a bus or light rail? It’s a store made for SUVs and pick-ups.

They want their customers to come by car so they don't feel constrained in the amount of bric-a-brac they walk out with, in addition to whatever larger pieces of furniture they might have delivered. I'm sure a lot of their profit margin is on the mountains of candle-holders and salt cellars and little lamps that they sell. That's the sort of stuff you walk out of there with.

[h0twired]

... and a man who has no grasp on reality!

Bottom line is that there is no good location for IKEA in our poorly planned City that will meet everyones needs. I don't know why he doesn't apply, in his understanding, the same congestion problems he cites will happen at Kenaston to downtown ...

Heh. Charles Huband.

His daughter was my grade 8 and 9 home room teacher.

His son was the reporter from the Reese Peanut Butter Cups commercials (the guy interviewing "circle researcher" Rory Tate).

[rrskylar]

From the Freep, letter's to the editor;

IKEA will promote sprawl

The IKEA announcement is an example of just about everything that is wrong with Winnipeg and provincial politics: secret meetings, inadequate time frame for input to the so-called public hearing, a developer open house pretending to be "public participation," poor urban planning, complete absence of any appraisal of environmental impacts, a business-dominated council, and massive public spending to promote sprawl and auto dependency.

STUART KAYE

Winnipeg

Antithesis of sprawl

Re: City jewel or urban sprawl? March 11.

Bartley Kives does more than an admirable job researching and writing news pieces about urban development and cannot be blamed for the headlines attached to his work. His article about the proposed development on Kenaston that could include an IKEA has nothing to do with urban sprawl. Indeed, the site proposed is inside a developed area and is the antithesis of sprawl. It is more likely to occasion criticism about being too close to densely populated areas than causing the city to spread beyond its services. The headline is misleading.

HART MALLIN

Winnipeg

[1ajs]

heres the traffic study has full site plans also
http://www.winnipeg.ca/ppd/planning/SterlingLyon/pdfs/trafficimpactstudy.pdf

[newflyer]

indeed but its going to be stupid on opening day...

i would not be surprized if the store is cleaned out on opening day :wizard:

It would take alot of shoppers to clear out that monsterous store in one day, but you can bet I'll be doing some shopping there shortly after it opens. :yes:

[newflyer]

While I think Ikea would draw people wherever it went, I think people would certainly go less often if the store were located downtown. You might get people from out of town, but many locals will find it too much of a pain. And lets face it...since when has Ikea been geared towards transit riders? How many people are going to be transporting their furniture purchases on a bus or light rail? It’s a store made for SUVs and pick-ups.

Agreed .. Ikea is a furniture store. As a regular transit user, I don't think I can ever recall anyone carring a sofa or bookshelf on a bus or LRT. I guess very similar arguements could be made as to why the Brick and Palliser are in areas easily serviced by large delivery trucks and numerous pickup trucks, than in areas easily accessed by pedestrians and bikes in the inner city.

Lets keep in mind that A&B Sound tried to establish many locations in the downtown, but people on the inside would tell you that many of those locations struggled to service big ticket clients because of then lack of loading docks and significant challenges for those customers to pickup large purchases.

[viperred88]

Atleast I am not the only one who thinks so. With all the land that is wasted with parking space you would think the city ask for a parkade in order to make most use of the lots as to add more building in the future.

Everybody keeps saying we need big parking lots in order to load up the trucks yet the Brick parking aren't nearly as big and ... Read Moreoften shared with other stores on the strip. Yet they deliver, so you would think IKEA delivers as well. Not only does Ikea sell furniture they also sell little knick knacks like candles, place matts etc that are easily carried on bus.

The Bay and Eatons were able to sell ship in there furniture at there downtown site without too much difficulty. The Bay downtown can easily fit Ikea in it and it has parking. Yes the bay downtown is downsizing is looking at sharing or moving to a smaller location. Not to mention Canada post location on graham is readily available as well.

Not having an Ikea downtown would be a lost oppurtunity for revitalizing downtown. The potential of having a huge movie theatre and many stores anchored by it, and a hotel but most importantly more a condo complex that will bring help bring in more to live downtown.



IKEA should be downtown, not at 'worst' site

By: Charles Huband | Winnipeg Free Press Opinion Piece - MArch 17, 2009

Why do we accommodate IKEA to the detriment of the city of Winnipeg?

It makes no sense from a planning standpoint to locate an IKEA store on what is already a thoroughfare that is overcrowded with traffic. I cannot imagine an urban planner recommending a site on Kenaston Boulevard, a street that is already over-burdened with traffic, and soon to become worse with the development of the Kapyong military site to the north, and the Waverley West housing development to the south.

Make no mistake, when the Kapyong property is developed, as it ultimately will be, it will constitute another major residential and commercial development along Kenaston Boulevard, and increase the traffic congestion that is already stifling.

It is not only the IKEA store, but also its retinue of those who wish to be close to this magnet of potential big spenders. There is to be a new hotel nearby, and heaven knows who else will want to join the party -- the developer hopes for well over one million square feet of retail and residential space.

Let there be no doubt that Kenaston Boulevard will be jammed with traffic even without an IKEA outlet. Consider: Kenaston serves the region of the ever more important and growing airport facility, the Polo Park shopping area, the Grant Avenue/Kenaston shopping area, the ugly box stores at Kenaston and McGillivray, leading on to the University of Manitoba and Waverley West. When a decision is eventually made for the use of the former military property, Kenaston will be close to a disaster area. But sane people are actually thinking of adding the heaviest traffic draw imaginable.

I understand the love-in with IKEA. What I do not understand is why the store would be allowed to locate in this location. At a time when environmental concerns are of growing importance, it would make much more sense to locate the store in a more central location where it could be best served by transit routes, and hopefully some form of rapid transit. The Kenaston location means that virtually every IKEA customer will be travelling a considerable distance by car. The chosen site is about 10 kilometres from the city centre, which means that potential customers from the north and northeast parts of the urban area will be driving considerable distances, burning fuel and spewing greenhouse gases to get to their destination.

I can well understand why IKEA would like the idea of a suburban location focused in the most affluent segment of the urban area. A few condos, a hotel, and some other satellite box stores will add to the attraction. But is there not a better choice?

In Toronto, the IKEA store is miles to the west of the city centre, just off the Gardiner Expressway. In Toronto, it means nothing that the IKEA store is out in the suburban reaches. The downtown centre is so massive and so full of energy that a relatively small shopping magnet along the Queen's Way poses no problem. But a similar shopping magnet in southwest Winnipeg will likely be destructive to the city core.

Would it not be preferable to invite IKEA to consider a city-centre site? The present Hudson Bay store might well be available at a reasonable price, with a large parking facility attached. Or consider the property to be vacated by Canada Post between Graham Avenue and St. Mary Avenue, and between Smith Street and Garry.

These city-centre locations have the advantage of being more central for motorists from all directions, thus cutting the energy usage of shoppers. If our society is serious about environmental concerns, let us start thinking about the location of facilities that will generate motor vehicle visits that ensure shorter trips. More importantly, let us locate these magnets of interest and commerce where they can be conveniently reached by users of transit (and hopefully rapid transit.)

The city fathers, together with provincial authorities, have been working diligently to revitalize the downtown core of the city over the last several years, with some measure of success. The Hydro head office is extremely helpful.

CentreVenture has a continuing mandate to generate new developments, but progress is slow. It is difficult to move forward on such simple projects as the Mitchell Copp Building and the Avenue Building.

And now we contemplate moving in the opposite direction as the entire axis of the city is altered, as it surely will be, by making Kenaston Boulevard the retail focus of the urban area.

It is difficult to understand the enthusiasm members of city council given their acknowledged responsibility to city-centre revitalization. The press releases all stress the plan to subsidize the IKEA development, but with the expectation of recouping taxes once the development is operational. Has the possibility been considered that substantial tax revenues could be generated by a downtown IKEA development, but without the enormous subsidy?

Of course, IKEA might not be interested in a downtown location. While I like the idea of an IKEA store and the attraction it would have for both our own, and shoppers from distant regions, the price of a retail superstore in the worst of all possible locations is too great a price to pay.


Charles Huband is a former justice on the Manitoba Court of Appeal and a former leader of the Manitoba Liberal Party.

[viperred88]

Agreed .. Ikea is a furniture store. As a regular transit user, I don't think I can ever recall anyone carring a sofa or bookshelf on a bus or LRT. I guess very similar arguements could be made as to why the Brick and Palliser are in areas easily serviced by large delivery trucks and numerous pickup trucks, than in areas easily accessed by pedestrians and bikes in the inner city.

Lets keep in mind that A&B Sound tried to establish many locations in the downtown, but people on the inside would tell you that many of those locations struggled to service big ticket clients because of then lack of loading docks and significant challenges for those customers to pickup large purchases.

I agree somewhat what you say about loading docks. But lets not forget alot of the furniture is not assembled therefore still in boxes. Delivery of those items wouldn't be a problem. Plus all the people who shop at polo park already can easily drive/bus an extra few to downtown. Its really not far at all.

The amount of people that would converge to Ikea would not overcrowd downtown for the simple fact downtown can handle 50 000 - 60 000 office workers on weekdays. So why not the extra few thousands of shoppers on weeknights and weekdays.

Yet for a downtown location alot of shopping would need a parkades to lure in suburbans. The Bay downtown is an example of that. Also didn't centre venture mention in the gold plan in building a few parkades downtown. So having a parkade by an Ikea downtown would not be out of the question in making Ikea successfull.

[1ajs]

shame the bay closes so early

[JasonPear]

If they got rid of the store they would have even more parking! :yes:

I like how in that diagram there are only about a dozen cars in the whole parking lot.


heh, I think they drew that diagram to show what it looks like before the store opens for the day. Those are just the employees cars.

[vid]

No, employees have to park on the edges of the lot and save the spots near the door for customers. I know that our Wal-Mart tells its employees to park around the corner by the greenhouses.

[h0twired]

shame the bay closes so early

It's a shame The Bay doesn't have enough customers to justify staying open later.

[1ajs]

maybe if they had better hrs for one

[ILYR]

Having the Ikea downtown would be great. It should be done, but Ikea will likely not budge. Now as far as the discussion of whether or not Ikea would work in a downtown environment. There is a full size Costco store across the street from GM place in downtown Vancouver. My guess is that the same issues with parking and so forth would be the same with an IKEA.

Here is a suggestion, have IKEA move into the Downtown Post office once it is vacated. They would already have truck access and one would guess the open layout of the post office could be suited for an IKEA. Any thoughts?

[Kitty Surprise]

Having the Ikea downtown would be great. It should be done, but Ikea will likely not budge. Now as far as the discussion of whether or not Ikea would work in a downtown environment. There is a full size Costco store across the street from GM place in downtown Vancouver. My guess is that the same issues with parking and so forth would be the same with an IKEA.

Here is a suggestion, have IKEA move into the Downtown Post office once it is vacated. They would already have truck access and one would guess the open layout of the post office could be suited for an IKEA. Any thoughts?

As has been already expressed; downtowns don't fit into IKEA's business model. So much for thinking outside the (Big) box.:shrug:

I find it curious that even though IKEA locates in suburban areas for obvious logistical advantage, this IKEA will be built whilst in the midst of a new reality; a new "enlightenment" about urban development - and what is considered "in vouge" has changed markedly in the last year or so. To build a new IKEA in a post peak-oil kyoto/obama/green/sustainable/whatever you call it 2011 ... in the suburbs as they've always done... just doesn't seem "Swedish" to me. I always thought our Scandinavian friends were more ... clever... than that. Their products claim to be. Seems hypocritical, especially in this day and age, even moreso in the years to come.

[viperred88]

Having the Ikea downtown would be great. It should be done, but Ikea will likely not budge. Now as far as the discussion of whether or not Ikea would work in a downtown environment. There is a full size Costco store across the street from GM place in downtown Vancouver. My guess is that the same issues with parking and so forth would be the same with an IKEA.

Here is a suggestion, have IKEA move into the Downtown Post office once it is vacated. They would already have truck access and one would guess the open layout of the post office could be suited for an IKEA. Any thoughts?

we share the same vision just look at my previous post on this thread, plus the countless preaching I have been doing.

Would a lobby group of some sort work to convince the city that downtown at the soon to be vacated sorting post office on graham or the bay by vaughan would make a great home for IKEA.

[RAFS]

Would a lobby group of some sort work to convince the city that downtown at the soon to be vacated sorting post office on graham or the bay by vaughan would make a great home for IKEA.

It would be IKEA that needs to be convinced. Oh, and me. Cause I think IKEA downtown is a very silly idea.

[Andy6]

I don't really know how well it would work downtown. You don't just nip into IKEA to pick something up. It's a whole experience. You have to wander through the entire store before you can buy anything. It doesn't really lend itself to lunchtime shopping by office workers. You'd have a huge empty blue box there all week and then it would be jammed on weekends with people driving in and driving out with flat-packed boxes. How this would benefit downtown I don't know. In any case, they're not going to locate in the Bay or at the Post Office so the discussion is theoretical at best.

[newflyer]

we share the same vision just look at my previous post on this thread, plus the countless preaching I have been doing.

Would a lobby group of some sort work to convince the city that downtown at the soon to be vacated sorting post office on graham or the bay by vaughan would make a great home for IKEA.

It wouldn't make a great home for Ikea ... and would fail quickly.

But... sadly the city is not the one building the IKEA and lobbying the city will do nothing... the developer has made an application for rezoning of industrail land in Tuxedo Park for mixed use with a number of property variences included. Developers focus on the projected return of there investment based apon there business model.

The downtown Bay store, which is still fully occupied ... as is the Port Office are completely unsutable for a very long list of reasons, which has been outlined previously. The primary one is it doesn't fit the IKEA business model and it really that simple.... as well as IKEA doesn't actually own there own buildings, the developers are building the whole project and IKEA is committed to a long term lease is and when it goes through, as to the conditions set by the major tenant (IKEA).

The good news though, is the Winnipeg Police Service looks like they they may be the new tenant of the Post Office builing downtown.

[sledhead35]

cant wait to see renderings

[ILYR]

we share the same vision just look at my previous post on this thread, plus the countless preaching I have been doing.

Would a lobby group of some sort work to convince the city that downtown at the soon to be vacated sorting post office on graham or the bay by vaughan would make a great home for IKEA.

Sorry missed your post.

To add I agree with others here that IKEA and the City have no intension of putting IKEA downtown. However, I feel that it could be possible to have stores like IKEA or Costco in a downtown environment. In fact if you go back into the past and think of the Bay and Eatons in their prime I really don't see a huge difference. Really how much bigger box could Eatons be given the time in history. Those stores would sell many of products (i.e. furniture) that IKEA does. Many people from outside downtown would shop in droves on the weekends, yet during the week stay away. Granted those individuals use other means to transport themselves downtown and that the two store had a delivery business. This is not the best analogy, but I think there is room for larger box stores in the downtown. Granted they would have to adapt their model at bit, but Big Stores could be successful downtown.

[viperred88]

Sorry missed your post.

To add I agree with others here that IKEA and the City have no intension of putting IKEA downtown. However, I feel that it could be possible to have stores like IKEA or Costco in a downtown environment. In fact if you go back into the past and think of the Bay and Eatons in their prime I really don't see a huge difference. Really how much bigger box could Eatons be given the time in history. Those stores would sell many of products (i.e. furniture) that IKEA does. Many people from outside downtown would shop in droves on the weekends, yet during the week stay away. Granted those individuals use other means to transport themselves downtown and that the two store had a delivery business. This is not the best analogy, but I think there is room for larger box stores in the downtown. Granted they would have to adapt their model at bit, but Big Stores could be successful downtown.

oh I know its a done deal you can tell how it was streamlined in typical winnipeg fashion where no private company dares to make downtown a destination place.

its too late but eventually winnipeg will look into having more densification and demand more multi-use building like Vancouver has. Two years ago when I vacationed in vancouver I did see that Costco you are talking about by GM Place hockey arena. Costco was on the groundfloor of some condo or office tower. It really opened up my eyes on how one of the biggest big box stores can work in such a dense downtown. There is even a future shop in the heart of downtown.

In Montreal I saw a Chapters and Golf Town and a future shop as storefronts downtown

[viperred88]

here is an from someones blog of how big rigs can work into loading up the IKEA store downtown.
https://www.blogger.com/comment.g?blogID=5855854212121123059&postID=43249151223782432


"The amount of big rigs and customers going to the store would make downtown inaccessible.


I am astonished at the lack of creativity.

1) IKEA downtown at the Hudsons bay building would be exactly the type of catalyst the City needs.

2) Just because you purchase the product downtown does not mean you'll need a BIG RIG to get it.

3) Big Rigs can work during the 10PM to 6 AM time slot to fill the store.

4) Making use of the inland port ( maybe even get it built sooner ) would allow IKEA to warehouse the tons of material it will be shipping to internet and mail order clients that they have eyed in picking Winnipeg as their market.

5) Same warehouse can be used for locals to pick up large items in a convenient and efficient manner.

And all of this can be accomplished to satisfy a few issues.

That being said, it'll be built as specified. But we can still bullshit about it."

[h0twired]

I am astonished at the lack of creativity.

1) IKEA downtown at the Hudsons bay building would be exactly the type of catalyst the City needs.

2) Just because you purchase the product downtown does not mean you'll need a BIG RIG to get it.

3) Big Rigs can work during the 10PM to 6 AM time slot to fill the store.

4) Making use of the inland port ( maybe even get it built sooner ) would allow IKEA to warehouse the tons of material it will be shipping to internet and mail order clients that they have eyed in picking Winnipeg as their market.

5) Same warehouse can be used for locals to pick up large items in a convenient and efficient manner.

And all of this can be accomplished to satisfy a few issues.

That being said, it'll be built as specified. But we can still bullshit about it."

1) The Hudson Bay Co still occupies that building. IKEA is a no go there for that reason alone. Not sure why people just assume that the building is empty.

2) No. However loading bays capable of handling a few dozen cars at a time would be necessary. Along with parking for the hundreds of cars that will be visiting the store at any given time.

3) Deliveries must be able to happen during working hours. Should IKEA be forced to have 24 hour warehouse staff?

4) Uh. Ok.

5) So people have to shop downtown and then drive to a suburban warehouse to pick up their goods? How incredibly convenient. Why not just one suburban warehouse attached to a showroom and be done with it?

[viperred88]

1) The Hudson Bay Co still occupies that building. IKEA is a no go there for that reason alone. Not sure why people just assume that the building is empty.

2) No. However loading bays capable of handling a few dozen cars at a time would be necessary. Along with parking for the hundreds of cars that will be visiting the store at any given time.

3) Deliveries must be able to happen during working hours. Should IKEA be forced to have 24 hour warehouse staff?

4) Uh. Ok.

5) So people have to shop downtown and then drive to a suburban warehouse to pick up their goods? How incredibly convenient. Why not just one suburban warehouse attached to a showroom and be done with it?

Your missing the point with winnipeg having one the biggest downtown can fit an Ikea downtown. But thats besides the point. Yes the bay is still residing in there building but one wonders how long from now will they vacate it. Rumors always swirl they are leaving. Just walk inside you haven't given the place a coat of paint since its hey days.

again parking should not be a problem if one integrates a parkade with Ikea.
Wasn't center venture going to build a few parkades in there gold plan announcement at the beginning last year?

Last point if they make a Costco work in downtown vancouver and San Francisco then I am damn sure Winnipeg developers can put there heads together and follow that example.