[SpongeG]

By Dan Ferguson
Staff Reporter
Jan 31 2007


Some Lower Mainland commuters could soon pay fares based on the length of their trip rather than how many transit zones they cross, TransLink’s manager of transit planning Graeme Masterton told Delta council Monday.

A “distance-based pricing” system would eliminate inequities in the current system where some riders pay extra because they happen to live just across the line from a different zone, Masterton said.

“Our current zone system is an incredibly crude attempt to do the same thing,” Masterton said.

His comments were made during a presentation to council about transit plans for the South Fraser region.

Until recently, Delta residents lived in the only Lower Mainland community where some people had to pay two fares to travel within their own municipality, the result of a decision to put the Annacis Island industrial park into a separate zone.

That was corrected in 2005 after sustained lobbying by council and transit critics.

Masterton said a better approach would be a transit service that charges fares based on travel distance using “proximity cards” with computer chips to make calculating trip time and fares automatic, something already in use in some U.S. and European cities.

However, the technology isn’t cheap, with ticket machines costing as much as $80,000 apiece, Masterton added.

TransLink had hoped to run a pilot project this year to test the concept, but couldn’t get the necessary funding from the province.

The transit company still hopes to have a pilot running by 2010, possibly on the West Coast Express commuter train line.

When Coun. Vicki Huntington suggested TransLink could use a paper-based system similar to that used in some Japanese transit lines where riders pay according to a travel length rate card, Masterton said it wouldn’t be practical.

“I don’t think our customers are as orderly as the Japanese,” Masterton commented.

Outside council, he explained he was referring to Japan’s long-established tradition of paying precise amounts for specific lengths of trips on public transit, a tradition that doesn’t exist in Canada.

http://www.surreyleader.com/

:banana:

[officedweller]

Distance based fares would have to be implemented concurrently with an Octopus type fare card.

I know someone who lives at Joyce Station and works in Metrotown but drives because it is two zones.

[mr.x2]

In other words, a smart card.

[Jared]

Distance based fares would have to be implemented concurrently with an Octopus type fare card.

I know someone who lives at Joyce Station and works in Metrotown but drives because it is two zones.

why not just walk if you're that close? :shrug:


Anyways, I've been saying for years we should get rid of the zone system, so hopefully we'll see some action!

[fishy]

^ joyce to metrotown is not exactly a close walk. But sure if he/she wants to leave the house 30-45 minutes early everyday.

[cornholio]

The curent fare zone sytem could be and should be improved and temporarly maybe even eliminated(if there would be enough capacity to absorb the transit rider growth because of it, and keep them). But in the long run some type of fare zone is important to incourage people to live in more compact comunities and closer to their work. Problem with no fare zones is that it incourages(though very little compared to some other factors) sprawl, being able to save $30 a month, $360 a year for some people can be just enough incentive to live say at metrotown where they work instead of at Joyce station. Then they can walk to work instead of taking transit and end up freeing up a spot on the skytrain which is almost the same as increasing its capacity, for free.

[squeezied]

it's good exercise given present-day obesity levels. and for buses, it's only less than a five minute walk.

[baggab]

They should just elimnate Zone 2 and have Burnaby and New West merge with Vancouver Zone 1 and have North Van merge with Zone 3.

[murman]

I'm curious as to whether TO or MTL have fare zones...

[baggab]

I'm curious as to whether TO or MTL have fare zones...

TO doesn't have Fare Zones but their monthly fare card is $100

compared to Vancouver where it's $69 for 1 zone and $95 for 2 zones. There should really be only Two Zones these days.

That and TO has non transferable fares. IE $2.75 is paid for just one ride(Non Transferable). While in Vancouver it's 2.25 for 1 hour and 30 mins (Transferable)

[SFUVancouver]

I think that the zone system is antiquated in light of the growth patterns we've experienced since SkyTrain's 1986 introduction. I think a two zone system would be a good step towards a distance-based smart card system. Here's my idea.

Split Translink itself into Vancouver, as zone 1, and everything else is zone 2. Vancouver's fares would be higher, $2 concession/senior, $3 Adult. This higher fare would reflect the greater level of service compared to the rest of the region and would also be used locally to fund Vancouver-specific transit improvements like the downtown streetcar and significant expansion of the electric trolley fleet. A portion of the Vancouver fare, 10%-25% would be transferred to the capital projects budget of Zone 2 to pay for a build up of transit capacity. Operating costs of Translink Vancouver would certainly be covered by local fare revenue.

Fare zone 2 would have lower fares. $1.50 concession/senior, $2.50 Adult. A $0.50 cent add-fare would still apply when entering Vancouver and vice-versa. The lower fare recognizes the lower level of transit service outside of Vancouver while simultaneously providing a more affordable buy-in for the public to take public transit.

Any thoughts?

[officedweller]

One potential problem is that your "transfer payment" of 10-25% from zone 1 fare revenue to fund zone 2 operations and capital costs could be lower than the current situation (the outlying bus routes are the most uneconomical to operate). I don;t know how much the profitable routes subsidize the costly routes. On top of that, having a lower fare in zone 2 reduces the fare revenue available to fund operations and capital costs in zone 2 - increasing the need for the transfer payment.

I think the proposed fare structure would work well and encourage transit in zone 2 (subject to zone 1 screaming about paying more) - but the separation of fare revenue streams probably would not work. The averaging / distribution of fare revenue to fund operations and capital costs on a region-wide basis is probably required - otherwise you have a scenario where the rich stay rich and the poor can't improve their situation.

[miketoronto]

Toronto got rid of zone fares in the 1970's. Infact Toronto's transit system made a profit till the zone fare system was taken out in the 70's.

We do have a sort of zone fare system now, where if you travel outside of Toronto city limits, you have to pay the fare of the suburban transit system you are entering.

And the commuter trains are all fare by distance.

Toronto's nothern suburbs in York Region have a zone system depending which suburb you are traveling in.
York Region transit even has an overlap zone where you only pay one fare if you are near the zone boundary. You can see it on the map.

http://www.yorkregiontransit.com/images/vivafarezones.gif

[ssiguy]

I say get rid of 3 zones and bring it down to 2.
Everything in current zone two would just be zone 1.

It would be VERY easy. Anything across the Frazer {tunnel in Richmond} would be 2nd zone.
The river could be the zone divider.
It would be almost impossible to cheat as very few routes actually cross the river and the ones that do would be very easy to monitor because anybus going pass the Frazer is an express anyway unlike current zone 2 to 3 now.
Think about it, in regular service there are only three buses that would go from zone 2 to three { Cresent Beach, Ladner and Maple Ridge} and the SkyTrain. Staff checking from the Skytrain over the bridge which is a very
long stretch.
Too easy, which is why Translink won't do it.

[baggab]

I think that the zone system is antiquated in light of the growth patterns we've experienced since SkyTrain's 1986 introduction. I think a two zone system would be a good step towards a distance-based smart card system. Here's my idea.

Split Translink itself into Vancouver, as zone 1, and everything else is zone 2. Vancouver's fares would be higher, $2 concession/senior, $3 Adult. This higher fare would reflect the greater level of service compared to the rest of the region and would also be used locally to fund Vancouver-specific transit improvements like the downtown streetcar and significant expansion of the electric trolley fleet. A portion of the Vancouver fare, 10%-25% would be transferred to the capital projects budget of Zone 2 to pay for a build up of transit capacity. Operating costs of Translink Vancouver would certainly be covered by local fare revenue.

Fare zone 2 would have lower fares. $1.50 concession/senior, $2.50 Adult. A $0.50 cent add-fare would still apply when entering Vancouver and vice-versa. The lower fare recognizes the lower level of transit service outside of Vancouver while simultaneously providing a more affordable buy-in for the public to take public transit.

Any thoughts?


Higher fares in suburban have less to do with less service and more to do with higher cost in operating Transit to suburban areas.

Example: 351 Crescent Beach. It's a Express Bus from Vancouver Downtown to White Rock. It's average load(during Rush Hours) is about 70 ish people, it'll most likely serve around 150 people in it's entire trip. The entire one way trip is about 1 hour 30 mins one way with it's return trip usually with low to no loads, because suburban busses primarily service Morning and Evening Rush hours ( not that they are always exclusive to rush hours times, some are thou) Which make a Suburban bus serviceing approximately only about 200 people over a 3 hour time period.


While bus routes in Vancouver and Burnaby would service around 200-300 people in about 1 hour.

Since Vancouver is also the urban center, the Transit in Vancouver City has to be much better because of the massive strain put on people entering the city everyday from surrounding cities. The only elimination of borders that should happen is Richmond Burnaby and New West.

While the most expensive projects(Skytrain) are usually to service suburban cities.

Personally I never would like to give suburban areas too much sympathy, that's my bias. It's because people living in these areas, bought houses with the complications that living in that area has.

[Nutterbug]

How about a 2-zone system, in which the current Zone 1 stays Zone 1, Zone 3 becomes the new Zone 2, and the current Zone 2 becomes a buffer zone between the two new zones that takes transfers from either without added fare?

[officedweller]

Good idea - that blurs the boundary and eliminates the "just over the boundary" problem. They'd just have to code the tickets to be zone specific i.e. "Zone 1", "Zone 2" or "Both Zones".

EDIT - you'd still have the "just over the boundary" problem, but in different places. Hmmm.

[marmorek]

How about a 2-zone system, in which the current Zone 1 stays Zone 1, Zone 3 becomes the new Zone 2, and the current Zone 2 becomes a buffer zone between the two new zones that takes transfers from either without added fare?

Best idea in the whole thread. :)

[argon007]

how about abolishing the fare zones?

people in vancouver and richmond who can use $2.25 to go to Delta and Surrey...

my idea is too much... and it is not impossible...lol

[Lee_Haber8]

This guy in the article has the right idea - Greater Vancouver needs a Smart Card which can then have a transponder system to precisely measure how much people use the system. This is the end solution, changing the zones may be good a temporary fix

[Bert]

baggab is correct on the express buses. Bus route profitability is based on passenger turnover, which is one reason why they'll be "forcing" express bus users onto the Canada Line. Those routes are very expensive for Translink.

And abolishing fare zones in the interim would actually be a step away from distance-based pricing, since it would be less price discriminatory.

[officedweller]

There was an article in the Province today that Translink is studying the smart cards. The bus fare boxes are compatible.

[SpongeG]

it made the noon news today

they say if it does happen it should be implemented in 2010 or by 2010 - so its a few years off still

[marmorek]

how about abolishing the fare zones?

people in vancouver and richmond who can use $2.25 to go to Delta and Surrey...

my idea is too much... and it is not impossible...lol

That would be a good way of encouraging transit use. Personally, I'd also like to see free transit in downtown and U-Pass type passes for all high school and post-secondary students.

[baggab]

That would be a good way of encouraging transit use. Personally, I'd also like to see free transit in downtown and U-Pass type passes for all high school and post-secondary students.

They want to do that, but can't because of the stress SFU and UBC is already putting on the system. It'll be quite a while before the system will be ready to new additions. After the Shuttle plan comes in to full fruition, maybe then they'll have enough of the 40ft buses freed to increase services to post secondary and High Schools.

[mr.x2]

^ that's a great idea but yea, i couldn't imagine seeing even more people on the already saturated transit system. we'd need a lot more buses, on top of what we have ordered.

[Jared]

They want to do that, but can't because of the stress SFU and UBC is already putting on the system. It'll be quite a while before the system will be ready to new additions. After the Shuttle plan comes in to full fruition, maybe then they'll have enough of the 40ft buses freed to increase services to post secondary and High Schools.

I don't think highschools would cause too much of a problem; they're usually close by so most people walk. Also, given that there are so many of them scattered about, rather than having two places everyone has to go (UBC + SFU), so you probably wont have such overcrowding on a few routes. This means that you may not even need to add new buses, as many of the ones going past highschools likely already have enough capacity.

Colleges and whatnot would pose a problem though; I expect they would see a huge hike in ridership (for comparison purposes, UBC's transit ridership is 2.5x what it was pre-Upass.

[cornholio]

They can try creating a off peak hour pass for college students where it will cost less but be only valid during off peak times and upgradable to a full pass if the student chooses to upgrade for a fee. Say 1000-1400 and 1800-0600. This way they dont overburden the system but rather make better use of it during off peak hours, its not perfect but its a decent temporary solution.

[SpongeG]

Skytrain says it was time for a 'cold boot'
Feb, 06 2007 - 11:40 PM


BURNABY/CKNW(AM980) - Skytrain officials hope new software will solve an on-going problem.

For the last few months there have been problems off and on with the Skytrain ticketing machines failing to accept debit and credit cards.
Spokesperson Drew Snider says hopefully with the installation of new software, these problems are over, "It's one of these things with technology when you offer people, you know with so many options for paying, there are times when some of these options go sideways on you."

Snider says if this does happen to Skytrain riders who don't have cash on hand, get a-hold of a Skytrain attendent who will fill out a fare deferrial to avoid any penalties.

[SpongeG]

sort of related news:





U-Passes won’t go to college students



By Jeff Nagel
Black Press
Feb 09 2007


TransLink is giving up for now on any move to extend its cheap U-Pass transit system to the region’s colleges.

Students at the colleges have demanded they get the same deal enjoyed by area university students, who pay less than $25 per month for the mandatory passes that give them full transit access.

But TransLink, which maintains any extension of U-Pass must be revenue-neutral, came up with prices last fall ranging from $34 to $50 per month for college students, depending on which institutions signed on.

Officials promised to start negotiations this year if enough colleges and student bodies expressed interest.

But TransLink spokesman Ken Hardie said none of the student societies are willing to put a U-Pass offer to a referendum unless they get the same rate as UBC students. In addition, administrators at all colleges except Langara weren’t willing to run the program.

“At this point, no expansion is on the horizon,” Hardie said.

Even if all colleges and their students were on board, TransLink would be hard pressed to handle the increased ridership that would flow from a U-Pass expansion.

“The program drives up ridership and requires more buses and operators,” Hardie said. “We can’t proceed on the basis of higher costs and higher fare subsidies.”

Colleges like Kwantlen, with far-flung dispersed campuses in Surrey. Richmond and Langley would be outright impossible to serve right now, Hardie said.

“We would simply not have the transit capacity available to provide service to the Langley campus or to deal with any significant lift in demand for the Surrey campus,” he said.

College students had also hoped UBC and SFU might agree to redraw their own deals in order to aid the colleges.

But UBC student leaders have said they won’t consider any changes to their U-Pass agreement before it expires in 2008.

U-Passes are a compulsory student transit pass that students pay for along with their fees. They provide transit access at a fraction of the cost of a regular $69 pass.

TransLink had envisioned extending U-Passes to one to three colleges, starting in the fall of 2007.

Hardie said it’s impossible to tell when the idea might be revisited again.

http://www.langleytimes.com/

[cc85]

yea, i dont really feel like spreading the costs of the colleges' upass fees on my sfu upass amount. I quite like playing $98 a semester for unlimited transit. :P
hey, i spent 4 semesters at kwantlen for my AA paying $67 month for my 1 zone pass (with a fast trax sticker), so i've paid my dues.

Besides, translink can't handle the additional demand the students would place on the system. Can u imagine the #41 going to langara without having students waiting for the next empty bus? no, they will always be full. and most of the people who live in surrey/langley and go to Kwantlen surrey/langley dont even have good transit access as it is.

[tintinium]

Rates for U-Pass for UBC and SFU will probably go up in 2008, and Translink will promise more service. It's a good compromise.

[mr.x2]

Rates for U-Pass for UBC and SFU will probably go up in 2008, and Translink will promise more service. It's a good compromise.

Well, they've got no choice. It's mandatory anyway. :p

[argon007]

Can u imagine the #41 going to langara without having students waiting for the next empty bus?

It is #49, not #41...

Well, I think Vancouver traffic capacity is full...when my friend goes to bcit, the willingdon avenue is getting full...

so.. the vancouver traffic capacity won't be better in the few years.