PDA

You are viewing a trimmed-down version of the SkyscraperPage.com discussion forum.  For the full version follow the link below.

View Full Version : What's wrong in Winnipeg?



Pages : 1 2 3 [4] 5 6

Only The Lonely..
Mar 16, 2007, 12:14 PM
This thead really has nothing to do with Winnipeg. Its much more an arguement about Calgary's weather.

Please rename it: Calgary is cold .. no its not ... yes it is. :rolleyes:

NO ITS NOT!

freeweed
Mar 16, 2007, 12:33 PM
This thead really has nothing to do with Winnipeg. Its much more an arguement about Calgary's weather.

Please rename it: Calgary is cold .. no its not ... yes it is. :rolleyes:

No, it isn't.

After reading this idiot's posts again, this thread is about how s/he actually thinks CANADA's weather is bad. I'm kind of slapping my head for not realizing this. I don't think s/he thinks anyone could possibly enjoy winter. Not 30 million Canadians, not 100 million Russians, not 10s of millions of Scandanavians. Not 10s of millions of New Englanders.

I think I understand our differences now. They're not claiming CALGARY has bad weather. They're claiming ANYWHERE with winter has bad weather. No wonder I've been arguing the wrong tack. Hell, it's been claimed that swampy, humid, 120F in the summer and hurricanes in the fall Florida has better weather than Calgary - I should have figured it out from that example alone.

Oh, incidentally - far more tourists visit us in the summer. Banff/Jasper/Golden have great skiiing, but you see many more times the number of people in the June-August season. And oddly enough, they're not wearing parkas. :) Everyone who doesn't live here seems to assume that there's snow year-round, and skiing is the only tourist attraction (I'm even guilty of thinking this before moving here) - millions of Asian and European tourists say otherwise. Yes, those self-same Meditteraneans come to CALGARY in the summer. By the tens of thousands, every year. Many Italians and Greeks that I've met tell me our summer is a nice refreshing change from the stifling conditions back home. ;)

rousseau
Mar 16, 2007, 3:13 PM
Hell, it's been claimed that swampy, humid, 120F in the summer and hurricanes in the fall Florida has better weather than Calgary
Sigh...most people, not all, but most people would generally say that the weather in Florida is better than in Calgary. Most people would indeed say that.

Cold winters, five months of temperatures below zero, cool summers, snow in summer in Calgary...are you seriously arguing that most people would not say that the weather in Florida is preferable to the weather in Calgary?

For the record, now: Freeweed is of the opinion that most people out there would say that the weather in Calgary is preferable to the weather in Florida, and not the contrary.

Is this really what you believe? And you're calling me an idiot?

freeweed
Mar 16, 2007, 4:06 PM
Is this really what you believe? And you're calling me an idiot?

Nah, I called you that due to your stubborn refusal to believe that anyone could possibly think that Calgary has great weather (which many of us do in fact believe), combined with your insistence that majority opinion sets some sort of absolute standard on the goodness/badness of a subjective belief, and lastly your inability to realize that weather is something to be taken on the whole.

I don't see anyone ever claiming that snow in September is great. I do see many people saying that the overall weather in Calgary is great. You do not seem willing to see the difference between these two superficially similar, but strikingly different concepts.

My point is, the minute you start down the path of "the weather can't possible be good here because of X", you can say that about any region's weather. Florida has great weather if you discount hurricane season, and for those that don't like living in a sauna, the 100F + 100% humidity. Overall? Yeah, great weather down there. But I could repeat over and over again about the small parts that make it suck, and be making the exact same point you've been.

Regardless, this whole "let's poll humanity and see what they think" is entirely irrelevant to the original conversation. We, and by that I mean myself and several of the posters here, happen to think that Calgary's weather is good. One of us enjoys Thunder Bay's weather. If they could be bothered, we could find several Winnipeggers who would make the claim that Winnipeg's weather is good. Claiming that we all hold invalid opinions because the majority disagrees with us? Eh. Whatever floats your boat. My enjoyment of life is in no way impacted by what you, or anyone else, believes.

vid
Mar 16, 2007, 4:22 PM
Some people like hot and humid.
Some people like cool and dry.
Then some people think the people that disagree with them are inherently wrong and should be shut up.
But they're just kidding themselves.

:tup:

freeweed
Mar 16, 2007, 4:54 PM
Thunder Bay's weather still sucks. :D

rousseau
Mar 16, 2007, 5:07 PM
Nah, I called you that due to your stubborn refusal to believe that anyone could possibly think that Calgary has great weather (which many of us do in fact believe)...

You must like cold weather. You must like the weather in Calgary. Good for you.

...combined with your insistence that majority opinion sets some sort of absolute standard on the goodness/badness of a subjective belief...

…you state that I am claiming absolute authority in this matter, which I have never done. Rather, I have suggested that there is something of a general consensus when it comes to what constitutes good weather. Warm is most often perceived to be better.

...and lastly your inability to realize that weather is something to be taken on the whole.

Cold winters, five months of temperatures below zero, cool summers, snow in summer in Calgary.

Your argument is a complete strawman, but I think I see now why you claim that it's not: it would appear either that your reading comprehension is inadequate and you don't realize it, or that you are so blinded by your passive-aggressive defense of Calgary that you wilfully refuse to consider what I am actually saying.

Why not give it up, already?

I have given ample justification for my position, but you thrash about with wild contentions that are prima facie preposterous. For example: you contend that 30 million Canadians "like" winter. Wow. I'd like to see how you could substantiate that. Some 2 million Canadians go to Florida every year, and I'm guessing that a good solid part of those go in winter. Are you cleverly subtracting the 2 million Florida-bound from our 32-million strong population to get your 30 million winter-lovers? Neat trick.

You claim that 30 million Canadians "like" winter. I would argue that most Canadians "put up" with winter. Which do you think is the most likely scenario?

How about saying something, anything, that makes the least bit of sense?

vid
Mar 16, 2007, 5:27 PM
Those quotes are working against you.

You are defending overtly hot uncomfortable weather and he is saying weather is relative to the person experiencing it. You are what you are fighting, and you are fighting that which you have no reason to fight.

Now end this nonsense.

rousseau
Mar 16, 2007, 5:35 PM
Those quotes are working against you.

You are defending overtly hot uncomfortable weather and he is saying weather is relative to the person experiencing it. You are what you are fighting, and you are fighting that which you have no reason to fight.

Now end this nonsense.
Vid, either you can't read, or you're twelve years old. Your insistent non sequiturs are no longer amusing.

I am saying that there is something of a general consensus about what constitutes "great" weather, and that generally excludes the weather in Calgary. Of course one's appreciation of weather is subjective, and of course there are people who love the weather in Calgary...no one is arguing against that (learn to read).

My argument is that the evidence suggests very strongly that most people would generally not consider the climate in Calgary "great," and that telling a non-Canadian that the weather in Calgary is "great" would be foolish and patently ridiculous. No one here has been able to argue against this, but rather, they have been using strawmen arguments because they cannot handle the fact that, say, the EIU might be suggesting that the climate in their top ten city might be a negative factor.

Grow up.

vid
Mar 16, 2007, 5:40 PM
It's great compared to Iqaluit or Winnit'sfullofmosquitoesandsnowipeg.

ReginaGuy
Mar 16, 2007, 5:54 PM
Hey rousseau, I just read through the argument, and I would like to say you are quite the shit disturber. Why do you have such a fascination with how "bad" Calgary's weather is? Are you just trying to show how vastly superior Ontario is because its slightly warmer (on average) in the winter?

freeweed
Mar 16, 2007, 5:55 PM
Vid, from here on in I suggest we add the following disclaimer to any and all weather-related conversations we might have in the future:

"Dear friend: on the off chance you are not aware of the Earth's geography, please be advised that Calgary is well above the 49th parallel. Furthermore, the city is at an elevation exceeding 1000m. Subsequently, what is defined as 'good' weather by Canadians must be held in relation to the fact that we are not actually located at the equator, nor is most of the country on the shores of a major body of water. For further reference, please Google the term 'temperate' and adjust your expectations accordingly. My sincerest apologies if you are already smart enough to have figured out that the usage of the word 'good' is universally understood to be a relative and subjective term, and all other determining factors should be taken into account before evaluating whether or not this corresponds to your own personal experiences."

This way, the next time I'm in Naples and am telling people what the weather is like at home, I don't have to worry about lying to the poor folks who've never ventured outside of a single climate zone.

This thread turned out to be far more fun than I'd have expected. :)

vid
Mar 16, 2007, 6:01 PM
I think that advisory should be mandatory in all discussion about weather, not just in Canada, but the world over.

rousseau
Mar 16, 2007, 6:12 PM
"Dear friend: on the off chance you are not aware of the Earth's geography, please be advised that Calgary is well above the 49th parallel. Furthermore, the city is at an elevation exceeding 1000m. Subsequently, what is defined as 'good' weather by Canadians must be held in relation to the fact that we are not actually located at the equator, nor is most of the country on the shores of a major body of water. For further reference, please Google the term 'temperate' and adjust your expectations accordingly. My sincerest apologies if you are already smart enough to have figured out that the usage of the word 'good' is universally understood to be a relative and subjective term, and all other determining factors should be taken into account before evaluating whether or not this corresponds to your own personal experiences."

I don't think it would have to be that complicated. When asked what the weather is like in Calgary, you could say:

1. Winters are cold.
2. The temperature is below freezing for five months of the year.
3. Summers are cool.
4. Sometimes it snows in summer.

Then let them do the math. Simple, really.

And no, I'm not claiming that the weather in southern Ontario is "great," far from it. Though I would say that the summers are the best in Canada, by far (though I wouldn't bother getting into an argument about that).

vid
Mar 16, 2007, 6:30 PM
Well in Calgary

1. Winters are interrupted by frequent warm spells
2. The temperature is below freezing for 85% of 45% of the year.
3. Summers are warm interrupted by frequent cool spells
4. Summer receives precipitation


Toronto:
1. Winters are warm and snow requires military assistance
2. The temperature is moderately cool but still too cold for many
3. Summers are hot and humid
4. Summers receive tornadoes

freeweed
Mar 16, 2007, 6:44 PM
Wow, with the legalese and everything, I figured the sarcasm was dripping in my post.

Let's clarify: if I was going to visit Naples (for instance), I'd have to be a complete and utter ignoramus to think that I should bring my parka for a July visit, regardless of whether or not a local told me that their weather is "cold" or "hot" or whatever. Maybe it's colder than sub-saharan Africa where the guy grew up, and he tells me the nights are "cold". Still pretty sure I can leave the toque behind.

Similarly, when visiting Canada, most people understand that we're:

a) up north, therefore:
b) colder than the tropics, therefore:
c) actually get snow in the winter, therefore:
d) used to wearing winter coats (in the winter)

However, if said person was coming for a visit from Toronto (for instance), odds are they'd already be used to wearing a winter coat in the winter (shocker!). If they were coming from Winnipeg in the winter, odds are they'd dress down a little, as damn near everywhere is warmer than Winnipeg in the winter. :)

Edit: thinking further, much of the world thinks we live in igloos as it is, and have permanent snow cover year-round. Maybe we should be telling them that it's actually HOT in Canada, so that if they come in summer they don't waste money on a big furry parka. :P

Greco Roman
Mar 16, 2007, 7:12 PM
Can someone lock up this thread please? It's going nowhere fast and is yet another thread that makes Winnipeg look like garbage. :hell:


:deadthread: :dead: :lockd:

IntotheWest
Mar 16, 2007, 7:26 PM
Rosseau - Read my posts carefully. Then, please point out where your arguments of "Calgary having bad weather" are valid. You have not proven anything.

And then, aside from temperature - which along with "snow in summer" you seem to be obsesssed with - please tell me what constitutes a good climate vs a not-so-good climate. I'm sure the temperature is nicely in the 80's in Florida in hurricane season...obviously, there is far more to it. You have barely addressed any of the points I've posted.

someone123
Mar 16, 2007, 8:38 PM
I don't think there has ever been a tornado in Toronto. They are always farther inland. Thunderstorms are common there though, and maybe also in Calgary.

The heat in Southern Ontario is a mixed bag. It is nice to have warm weather but I have spent many summers in Toronto and there were a lot of days when it was just too hot to do anything other than stay inside or sit around in the shade.

The fact is that, just as 2 million Canadians go down to Florida to escape the cold, a large number of Ontarians go North in the summer to escape the heat. I don't blame them, but I don't have a million dollars for a cottage in the Muskokas, nor would I want to sit in traffic on the way to what is supposed to be a relaxing weekend holiday.

The other problems are air conditioning and poor air quality. It is much nicer to simply leave your windows open and have fresh air.

vid
Mar 16, 2007, 8:47 PM
That's why I love it up here - convenience of a big city, but it's not as hot. The water front is nice and cool, inland it gets into the 100s, winter is the same, it's generally much milder here because of the lake, but if you like it really cold, go inland. :P

Greco Roman
Mar 16, 2007, 8:58 PM
I think that Winnipeg is only Canadian city on this forum where everyone comes to bragg about other cities in Canada on it's threads. I am not sure what to think of that.

vid
Mar 16, 2007, 9:06 PM
It's like on SSC, people from Mississauga going into threads about *insert Ontarian city here* and bragging about how great it is!

You know that would never happen here.

freeweed
Mar 16, 2007, 9:40 PM
I think that Winnipeg is only Canadian city on this forum where everyone comes to bragg about other cities in Canada on it's threads. I am not sure what to think of that.

You should think that you're a bit paranoid whenever the subject of Winnipeg comes up. The phrase "persecution complex" comes to mind.

This thread started with someone in the 'Peg asking about the cold (I think somewhat tongue in cheek), and degenerated into a general discussion about Canadian weather. It happens all the time in other threads. Edmonton/Calgary threads are full of cross-city discussions. You see it more often in the Winnipeg-related threads, I'll grant you - SSP has a LOT of ex-Winnipeggers who now live in Calgary/Toronto/Vancouver, so other cities' names come up all the time.

You'll notice, incidentally, that half of this thread consists of someone bashing Calgary weather - hardly bragging.

I suppose we could segregate access to threads by IP address, so that no one ever mentions Calgary or Toronto in a Winnipeg thread again, but I suspect with the new forum alignment you'll just naturally see a lot less of us. Too lazy to navigate to different areas. :)

rousseau
Mar 16, 2007, 10:05 PM
The fact is that, just as 2 million Canadians go down to Florida to escape the cold, a large number of Ontarians go North in the summer to escape the heat. I don't blame them, but I don't have a million dollars for a cottage in the Muskokas, nor would I want to sit in traffic on the way to what is supposed to be a relaxing weekend holiday.
Not so. They are escaping the city. Weather has nothing to do with it. Most often the temperature is only a few degrees different in the Muskokas. Indeed, everyone wants it to be 30+ degrees on the weekend in Muskoka, which is great for watersports.

Rosseau - Read my posts carefully. Then, please point out where your arguments of "Calgary having bad weather" are valid. You have not proven anything.
I've shown quite convincingly that most people would not consider Calgary's climate to be "great." Sure, lots of people like living in Calgary--more power to them (as I keep repeating and repeating). But Calgary's one of Canada's coldest cities, and Canada is a cold country. FIVE MONTHS BELOW ZERO. Is this not registering? That's almost half the year. Five months. What part of this do you not understand, that people from other places in the world, hell, even in Canada, would find that pretty daunting?

Five months below zero, fer crissakes! I'd say that if we're talking about weather, that sucks.

And then, aside from temperature - which along with "snow in summer" you seem to be obsesssed with - please tell me what constitutes a good climate vs a not-so-good climate. I'm sure the temperature is nicely in the 80's in Florida in hurricane season...obviously, there is far more to it. You have barely addressed any of the points I've posted.
Look, I'm not obsessed with snow in summer, but if you weren't such a defender-to-the-death of Calgary you'd admit that, hey, that's pretty whacky! Try to place yourself outside of Calgary, say, anywhere else in North America, and think about that: snow in summer! And it's not as if it's 30+ degrees every day and then, oops, one night at 3:00 am it somehow got cold enough for it to snow, and then the next day it went back up to 30 degrees, as you've been suggesting. The weather gets cold in summer for days on end, as the stats have shown.

Even cold enough for it to snow sometimes. In summer. Hey, it's like you said: in Calgary, September is more akin to October than it is to August. But it's the other way around for most people in North America. Calgary is cold. I've been there, I've seen the stats, and I've compared the stats to other cities. It's cold. People, generally speaking, tend not to like cold so much as they like warmth.

Does Toronto have "great" weather? No, not at all. This isn't "Toronto against Calgary." It's too damn cold in the winter, and for too long. Immigrants love Toronto, but the one thing they grimace about is the weather in January and February. Nowhere in Canada has "great" weather as understood by most people (who vote with their feet).

Though I will say that I like Toronto's hot summers, though they are too short. Fall is too short, too; New England is king in that regard. Generally speaking, yes. More or less. There are many exceptions, sure.

Andy6
Mar 16, 2007, 10:18 PM
Not so. They are escaping the city. Weather has nothing to do with it. Most often the temperature is only a few degrees different in the Muskokas. Indeed, everyone wants it to be 30+ degrees on the weekend in Muskoka, which is great for watersports.

...

Though I will say that I like Toronto's hot summers, though they are too short. Fall is too short, too; New England is king in that regard. Generally speaking, yes. More or less. There are many exceptions, sure.

Okay. I think we understand your position on this issue. We are duly wowed by your fantastic powers of reasoning and your unparalleled worldliness. Perhaps you could share your gifts with a different subforum for awhile.

vid
Mar 16, 2007, 10:28 PM
Why do you have such a hard time believing that some people like Calgary's climate over Toronto's?

You do know different people like different things, right?

freeweed
Mar 16, 2007, 11:08 PM
Calgary in the winter is warmer than:

Edmonton
Winnipeg
Regina
Saskatoon
Thunder Bay
Much of the Maritimes

So, as I said all along, its winters are only colder than Vancouver/Victoria and southern Ontario (some years debatable). Maybe Montreal/QC, I'm not up to snuff on that province other than knowing they get snow too.

Basically, take a map of Canada. Lop off a thin wedge at the western side, and a thin wedge surrounding Lake Ontario. The entire rest of the country is colder than Calgary in winter. That's a lot of country. I know it seems like Canada is only the GTA and some hinterland, but really - there's whole country up here!

freeweed
Mar 16, 2007, 11:20 PM
Why do you have such a hard time believing that some people like Calgary's climate over Toronto's?

You do know different people like different things, right?

More and more this reminds me of conversations with Americans from places like Arizona or Alabama. It's thoroughly unbelievable to them that we could possibly even survive snow, let alone -30 for a day. Regardless of anything else good about Canada, our society, the natural areas, our nice summers, our lack (for the most part) of natural disasters - they cannot get over the cold. That's the single most important defining feature of the country to them.

Of course, some of these people tolerate 40C+ humidexes for months in the summer, but they don't think that's odd at all. Hmm, maybe people adapt to the weather they're used to? :koko:

IntotheWest
Mar 16, 2007, 11:24 PM
Yep. You're missing the points.

This is my last post on this thread - since it is quite ridiculous, and you have some abstract ability to view the facts. Also, this discussion doesn't belong in this forum any longer.

Just a couple quick points though...

You have not shown anything with regards to what people prefer...you just haven't. And like Freeweed tried explaining quite a while ago "good luck" trying anyways.

"FIVE MONTHS BELOW ZERO" - here's another example of how you can take one piece of info (in this case, the "daily average") and generalized it. It's quite obviously not below zero for five months a year.

In fact, we've actually had 86 days since Nov 1 that have got over 0c. That's out of 136 days (so, there's yet another one of your arguments that just doesn't hold).

And again, taking 7 examples of it "snowing" in summer months in the past 30 years. Do you not realize how overblown you are making this? I'm surprised you didn't point out "OMG - it snowed at 6c? How does it snow when its still above 0c!?"...which you might of noticed.

As well, you've completely ignored the arguments about the hurricanes (don't want to touch it, do ya?). You've also completely ignored my comments about the EIU ranking. You've completely dodged the comments quoted from a popular travel source mentioning "when to travel to Calgary" (this isn't the only one, CNN travel mentioned the same thing - oh, and the sometimes mild winters from Chinooks...but, you can look that up yourself). And finally, you've completely failed at defining a "great" climate.

So, maybe you can see why I (and no one else) am not convinced by your weak arguments, dodging counter-arguments, and generalizing facts.

What are you on, your 80-something post? Well, maybe you'll learn at some point.

See ya.

IntotheWest
Mar 16, 2007, 11:28 PM
Calgary in the winter is warmer than:

Edmonton
Winnipeg
Regina
Saskatoon
Thunder Bay
Much of the Maritimes

So, as I said all along, its winters are only colder than Vancouver/Victoria and southern Ontario (some years debatable). Maybe Montreal/QC, I'm not up to snuff on that province other than knowing they get snow too.




Freeweed - go back and look at my posts...Calgary is just as warm during the day as Toronto. However, our lack of humidity definitely feels warmer.

I believe there is a small slice of NS, Windsor-area, small area of SW Alberta, and southern tip of the Okanagan that has positive daytime averages year-round.

Calgary is much warmer than Ottawa, Montreal, and QC - and with a lot less snow than Quebec!

EDIT: Okay - that's the last one. Damn, this is like a bad movie you just can't stop watching :-)

someone123
Mar 16, 2007, 11:59 PM
The weather stations with the lowest elevations in the far South of Alberta still average below freezing in January, though not by much. It is also misleading to consider only high temperatures when the nighttime lows are so much colder than elsewhere. The warmest I could find was Aden, Alberta, which gets up to about -1 but still goes down to -12 on an average January night.

Similarly, I don't think anywhere in Ontario has average highs above freezing year-round. Windsor doesn't.

Newfoundland comes about as close as Ontario and Alberta.

British Columbia and Nova Scotia are the only two provinces with areas that have highs averaging above freezing year-round. In BC it is much of the Southwest and Vancouver Island. In NS it is the Southwest and a strip extending around the Western end of the province from around Halifax to the Annapolis Valley. The warmest station I could find for mainland NS had an average high of around +2 and a mean of -2. Sable Island is slightly milder but is pretty far offshore.

rousseau
Mar 17, 2007, 12:32 AM
This is like picking at a sore. I just can't stop.

You have not shown anything with regards to what people prefer...you just haven't.
People voting with their feet. It's quite obvious what most people generally prefer. They vote with their feet. The numbers are there. They go to warm places.

"FIVE MONTHS BELOW ZERO" - here's another example of how you can take one piece of info (in this case, the "daily average") and generalized it. It's quite obviously not below zero for five months a year.
It averages below zero for five months of the year. I looked it up. No matter how you try to spin it, that's cold.

And again, taking 7 examples of it "snowing" in summer months in the past 30 years. Do you not realize how overblown you are making this?
Erm...I found several examples for each of the last few years, save for one year. I just went back and looked again, and over the past 10 years it has snowed in about 8 summers.

As well, you've completely ignored the arguments about the hurricanes (don't want to touch it, do ya?).
Hurricanes are nasty. But the risk is worth it if you can avoid living in a place where it is below zero for five months of the year, I reckon.

You've also completely ignored my comments about the EIU ranking. Canadian cities in the top ten were great, with the climate being the only "uncertainty."

Blitz
Mar 17, 2007, 12:35 AM
I didn't mind the winter here at all, yes it was frigid but it was so damn dry and sunny...a big change from the clouds and squalls I'm used to in southern Ontario.

IntotheWest
Mar 17, 2007, 1:07 AM
Rosseau - your responses are laughable. That's it? That's your responses??

Those 8 out of ten years, from beginning of June until the end of August, list'em. And it seems strangely odd that you think risking life and home for hurricanes every year is not as bad as a couple snow flakes (again, that I've never seen anyway in those months).

Even if you think you could uncover 8 days of "snow", you still miss the point. Sad really. And spin what?? You're the one that said its "FIVE MONTHS BELOW ZERO" - and it clearly isn't...what don't you see about that?

And for the EIU - the list "Best Places to Live", and Calgary ends up in 10th place, and you think it beat 117 places - including Honolulu - because everything else is that much better? However, our weather is sooo bad, that you'd rather risk life and home to live in Florida? Do you not see where you're going wrong with your logic and arguments??

And your "people vote with their feet" theory is a little weak too, considering Canada had the highest growth out of G8 countries in the last 5 years - which includes mostly folks moving here (yes, including places such as Calgary and Winnipeg).

Come on. You have to do better than that if you want to keep this going.

BTW - you still haven't touched other things like the Brits and well-known folks buying property in Canmore (which, you can count on a few flakes every summer), or the travel reviews of Calgary and when to travel here.

Oh - and I just stepped out for a coffee, and thought, "what a great day"...it's +6c, sunny, and no wind. Have you defined a great climate yet??

IntotheWest
Mar 17, 2007, 1:13 AM
someone123 - It is only "misleading" if you're a plant. Which I'm not. I could care less if the temperature is -40c at 3am. Don't much matter if the daytime is going to be +5 to +10 and sunny....Does it really matter to you? Really? If I was actually out at 3am, I'd likely be to drunk to notice the cold anyway ;-)

As far as weather stats go, I know my stuff ;-)

Windsor is currently sitting with an average of .1c in Jan, that's using current stats. The -0.9c you see in EC is now 7 years old. Though it is quite possible in the next two years it could drop again below zero, I suspect it won't. Thank global warming. It's the same reason as I've pointed out Calgary's average high in Jan is -1.3c...and not the -2.7c. I'm sure this will be big news by 2010 how much the country has warmed up (with the exception of the east/west coasts ;-)

Again, Calgary is sitting around -1.3c (you'd just have to calulate for yourself, or take my word ;-).

Cardston, AB is the only station in AB that manages above 0c for average highs. I suspect parts east along the Milk River may as well, to the far SE corner (Onefour), however, the record keeping doesn't go back far enough, or is in incomplete.

Penticton down to Osoyoos also enjoy the average highs above 0c...and, in my opinion, Canada's nicest climate by far.

rousseau
Mar 17, 2007, 1:52 AM
Those 8 out of ten years, from beginning of June until the end of August, list'em.
Summer ends September 21. "Technically," as you like to put it. Calgary snows just about every year before September 21, as I have already listed. Shall we argue about whether summer really ends at the end of August, as some people here wish to insist? If so, may I suggest that that would be yet another indication that Calgary is a much colder place than what the majority of North Americans would consider a place with "great weather?"

You're the one that said its "FIVE MONTHS BELOW ZERO" - and it clearly isn't...what don't you see about that?
That it averages below zero for five months. That's damn cold by just about anyone's yardstick, save, perhaps, for someone from Winterpeg. What's not to see? Sure, it gets above zero some days. It does here in southern Ontario, too, and no one from here is claiming that Toronto has "mild" winters.

Oh, I get it...you get some chinooks so that for three hours or so it'll be 20 degrees some days. So you get to take your coffee break without wearing a coat. Which, to be sure, is kind of a neat thing, and very unique to Calgary. I'd like to experience that some day, that would be fun. Sadly, Calgary's not my kind of city, as the two times I've passed through will last me for this lifetime, so I don't see it happening. Too bad.

And your "people vote with their feet" theory is a little weak too, considering Canada had the highest growth out of G8 countries in the last 5 years - which includes mostly folks moving here (yes, including places such as Calgary and Winnipeg).
How many people immigrate to Canada specifically for the weather? How many people visit or move to Honolulu for the weather? We are talking about weather, are we not?

My feet-voting theory is perfectly sound.

BTW - you still haven't touched other things like the Brits and well-known folks buying property in Canmore (which, you can count on a few flakes every summer), or the travel reviews of Calgary and when to travel here.
My point was that more people like warmth than cold. About 800,000 Britons live in Spain, and countless more have emigrated to Australia. How many Britons have moved to Canmore specifically for the weather? We are talking about the weather, are we not?

Oh - and I just stepped out for a coffee, and thought, "what a great day"...it's +6c, sunny, and no wind. Have you defined a great climate yet??
As I have said repeatedly, most people tend to find the Mediterranean climate the most agreeable.

someone123
Mar 17, 2007, 1:59 AM
someone123 - It is only "misleading" if you're a plant. Which I'm not. I could care less if the temperature is -40c at 3am. Don't much matter if the daytime is going to be +5 to +10 and sunny....Does it really matter to you? Really? If I was actually out at 3am, I'd likely be to drunk to notice the cold anyway ;-)


Actually, the coldest time of day is typically right before sunrise, which is not 3 a.m. in the winter. Similarly, the warmest part of the day is normally a little after the sun has peaked. Air masses can also influence the temperature so they can cause it to rise or fall at any time of the day.

Temperature changes happen along a continuous curve and peak temperatures normally only exist for a small part of the day. If one location ranges from -1 to -12 and another ranges from -1 to -6 the place that only goes down to -6 will range from 0 to 6 degrees warmer. On average it would work out to 3 degrees warmer, which is why mean temperatures are often used and why going only by high temperatures is misleading.

As for the climate not warming on the coasts, well, you're simply wrong. The fact is that recorded temperatures during the past couple of decades have also warmed up here and on the West Coast, and you can't have it both ways.

freeweed
Mar 17, 2007, 3:08 AM
Oh, I get it...you get some chinooks so that for three hours or so it'll be 20 degrees some days. So you get to take your coffee break without wearing a coat. Which, to be sure, is kind of a neat thing, and very unique to Calgary. I'd like to experience that some day, that would be fun. Sadly, Calgary's not my kind of city, as the two times I've passed through will last me for this lifetime, so I don't see it happening.

Chinooks last for a little more than 3 hours, my friend. Chinooks typically last for several DAYS, often stretching into a couple of weeks. What you're saying here is, you've never really experienced the weather here, and have no intention of ever doing so. Thanks, just wanted to make sure you were speaking from experience.

My point was that more people like warmth than cold. About 800,000 Britons live in Spain, and countless more have emigrated to Australia. How many Britons have moved to Canmore specifically for the weather? We are talking about the weather, are we not?

Count how many Canadians have moved to Spain in the past 50 years. How many have moved to Australia. How many have moved to Hawaii. How many have moved to any warm country.

Then count how many people have moved to Canada from:

Spain
Italy
Australia
New Zealand
Africa
India
Pakistan
The entire Middle East
Southeast Asia
Japan
Southern USA

I'm sure I could list another 30 countries/regions all with weather on average warmer than Canada's. Those are just off the top of my head based on who I've worked with in the past 10 years. If you're going to use "people vote with their feet"... looks to me like people from all over the world have been, and continue to, vote for Canada.

As I've stated before, they also vacation here. By the millions. You should really spend some time in Banff during ski season (very busy), or summer (insanely busy). Note that summer in Banff is far colder than Calgary. It often goes below freezing at night during the summer. BELOW FREEZING. AT NIGHT DURING THE SUMMER. Yet it's FULL OF INTERNATIONAL TOURISTS.

If the weather is so bad, and it's so important to people, why do people keep moving here? Why do they keep vacationing here? One or both of your premises is false - I leave it up to you to figure out why.

I think what this all shows is that you're possibly the only person in the world who lets Calgary's average nighttime temperature in January influence any decisions, the only person pedantic enough to believe that children go to school for nearly a month at the end of summer - well, and as mentioned by ITW, the only person who would seriously claim to prefer the risk of death by hurricane to a few overnight snowflakes in the summer.

freeweed
Mar 17, 2007, 3:24 AM
Actually, the coldest time of day is typically right before sunrise, which is not 3 a.m. in the winter. Similarly, the warmest part of the day is normally a little after the sun has peaked. Air masses can also influence the temperature so they can cause it to rise or fall at any time of the day.

Temperature changes happen along a continuous curve and peak temperatures normally only exist for a small part of the day. If one location ranges from -1 to -12 and another ranges from -1 to -6 the place that only goes down to -6 will range from 0 to 6 degrees warmer. On average it would work out to 3 degrees warmer, which is why mean temperatures are often used and why going only by high temperatures is misleading.

I'll be polite, because you're not being a jackass, so if I sound rude forgive me. You have to feel the weather here to believe it. What you say simply doesn't hold true as a rule in southern Alberta. The weather often stays warm well after sunset, and can be WARMER when you wake up than at noon. Chinooks are part of this. The jet stream in the winter often hovers directly over the city. It's not uncommon to see +12 in the NW part of the city, and -5 in the SE - no, I'm not exagerrating. This is over a 20-30km distance. The mountains combined with Pacific air masses do some really bizarre things.

Mean temperatures here are VERY misleading. It's common in a 24 hour period to have (rough examples) 4 hours of -25, and 20 hours of +5. What's the mean? Is it -15? Would it be warmer overall if you had 24 hours of -15? What about 24 hours of 0? Do the sun or clouds make a difference as to what it feels like at a given temperature?

There are no bodies of water to moderate temperature here. Often, no clouds to retain nighttime heat. However, at this altitude the sun can be HOT. I've watched snow melting at -20. No joke. By the time the temperature gets anywhere close to freezing on a sunny day, the snow is usually gone. So while the air temperature remains cold, it FEELS far warmer than it actually is. There's a lot of IR coming from the sun, but the air's too damn thin to retain any heat. YOU are warm, the air is not. It's one reason shade temperatures become so misleading as you gain elevation.

Having said all that, the other reason Calgary's mean temperatures, average highs, whatever are so low is that the weather here is extreme. We literally see the coldest Winnipeg temps (well, -35 to -25 anyway). We also see the warmest Vancouver temps (again, +10 to +15). All of this can happen in the same month. In January. Typically the coldest month in the northen hemisphere. Hell, I've seen it come close to that in a single day.

I guess what I'm trying to say is that averages are meaningless here. The weather here seems to almost never be around average, and it certainly never feels close to average. It's either bloody cold or bloody warm. You truly have to live out here for a few winters to understand.

IntotheWest
Mar 17, 2007, 3:34 AM
[i]On average it would work out to 3 degrees warmer, which is why mean temperatures are often used and why going only by high temperatures is misleading.

As for the climate not warming on the coasts, well, you're simply wrong. The fact is that recorded temperatures during the past couple of decades have also warmed up here and on the West Coast, and you can't have it both ways.

I'm not wrong - I said comparing with those cities more central in Canada...look it up yourself, do the calculations, you'll see what I mean (start from 1981, and get the stats from there on).

As for mean vs high...whatever works for you. My point is, I'm going to enjoy most of my day in the daytime - when the temperature is usually at its highest (not always the case here though). So, I'm not as concerned with how much it bottoms out at 3 to 5am (or earlier here)...hence, the reason using a "low" temperature to get the mean will not necessarily give you a representative measure of how much I enjoyed the weather. If you take today as an example, the temperature through the afternoon was around 6 or 7c, sunny, no humidity, and no wind - a very nice day. However, the temperature bottomed out last night at about 1am at -5c (actually, it bottomed out at 10pm at -6c)...so, the mean would be 0c or 1c. However, it could've been 7c all night long, and I wouldn't have known...that's how a lot of people would view it. I would agree some may want to consider all aspects of the temperature range depending on what they do...but, for me, I'm mostly concerned with the daytime temps.

But in defining "great" weather, I'm afraid you guys keep missing the big picture - it's more than just temperature anyway. The sunnier skies, and drier climate is far more pleasing to me. I spent two years in Vancouver, and I can not stand the winters. Temperatures are between 5c and 10c throughout, but the humidity, clouds, misty rain, etc isn't for me (nice summers though).

Rousseau - See our past posts about summer months. And aside from that, Calgary's average daytime high is still 17-18c..quite pleasant. Or, did you read that snippet from the travel guide? I don't know why you insist on making it out to be like winter.

And obviously, you're not reading carefully - "some" Chinooks? How about "some" cold spells? The winter is full of Chinooks, not just "some"...look it up. It's more and more obvious you don't know what you're talking about.

Your saying people "Vote with their feet" - suggesting people will move for weather, and then you turn around and ask do people move to Canada specifically for weather? Again - for the third time - climate is the second most important factor when choosing a place to live. Is it the best here? No, certainly not (in Canada in general)...but it's obviously not as bad as you're trying to convince others.

Here's a few things for you to look at - different opinions on Calgary and area:

From CNN travel (it is old, but Calgary would've just warmed up more in the winter since then anyway ;-)

http://edition.cnn.com/TRAVEL/DESTINATIONS/calgary/

"Calgary is blessed with a pleasant climate almost year-round. Even the cold northern winter is tempered by the Chinook winds that blow off the mountains"

And from Canadian Business magazine "Retirement Hotspots: Best Place for Outdoor Lovers", after South African-born NFL legendary kicker recently moved to Canmore:

"We were going to wait until our boys went to college," says Anderson's wife, Kay. "But we just loved the spot so much we decided to move immediately."

http://www.canadianbusiness.com/after_hours/lifestyle_activities/article.jsp?content=20060717_79364_79364

And, as mentioned, of course the Waterkeepers Banff Fundraiser every January (yes, January) in Banff...hosted by Robert Kennedy. Here's what Ed Begley Jr. said about coming to Calgary last year (you can find a ton of these, of course, Kennedy keeps coming back because he's loved Calgary since he visited the Stampede as a boy, and Baldwin - well, he just loves it...in January):

“I’ve been up to Calgary many times, summer and winter … it’s just heaven on Earth,” Begley Jr. said. “It’s one of my favourite places to go in the world.”

http://www.calgarysun.com/cgi-bin/publish.cgi?p=119353&x=articles&s=showbiz


And I guess you've given up arguing the hurricane point, defining "great" climate, EIU rating, etc...right? Hmmm...again, weak arguments.

rousseau
Mar 17, 2007, 3:40 AM
Again, for the umpteenth time, people do not immigrate to Canada because of the weather. Okay? Can you get that through your head? They do not. They come for a freer way of life, or to escape tyranny or poverty, or for jobs. They do not come here because they love the weather here.

People do go to Honolulu because they love the weather. And California. And Spain. That, and the natural beauty, and other factors. Is this so hard to understand?

After Labour Day, when the kids are in school and its 30 degrees outside, nobody in southern Ontario says: "Ah, now it's fall." We say "ah, it's starting to feel like fall" in October when we start to get some crisp days dipping down into the single digits. I'm not being pedantic at all. Again, this highly suggests that what might appear normative to you is not to the vast majority of North Americans. Does it matter to you? No? That's great. It shouldn't. But it's peculiar that you insist that September is only "technically" summer, and once again this suggests that you're living in a pretty cold place.

To repeat: I think most sentient Canadians are aware that there are lots of immigrants here from warm countries. I think most sentient Canadians are also aware that the attractions of Canada do not include our weather. I think it's safe to say that when Dinesh and Qiangguo and Bojan were sitting in Bangalore and Wuhan and Ljubljana and considering a move to Canada that weather wasn't the prime motivating factor for them. Indeed, if anything it would have been tallied on the con side of the list.

I mean, this is bleedin' obvious. Okay, hold on...you're winding me up, aren't you? Taking the piss? You don't believe half of the shite you're spouting, do you?

Well done, you got me!

But one more thing: Yes, there are lots of tourists in Banff. Not "millions," but lots. Lots of people ski, and lots of people love mountains. They are beautiful. I've been to Banff, and enjoyed it very much. But lets get back to reality here. How many people vacation in Banff and places like that compared to the millions upon millions who go to Ibiza and Thailand and Cancun and the like? It's no contest.

someone123
Mar 17, 2007, 3:47 AM
At the end of the day, the fact is that mean temperatures are based on two sampling points per day while high temperatures are based on only one so statistically they should be more accurate.

The rest is basically conjecture and could be true of any place. There's nothing that I am aware of that indicates that the temperature distribution on an average day in Calgary is different from anywhere else along the average range.

I don't really want to get involved in the argument about which place is better but I see a lot of pretty dubious statements in these threads.

Andy6
Mar 17, 2007, 4:01 AM
^^ I would think that the number of people who move anywhere primarily because of the weather is very small. Also, you can't conclude from the fact that many people like to go to warm places for a week or two in the winter that they prefer the overall climate, year-round, of that place to the overall climate of the place they're from.

Andy6
Mar 17, 2007, 4:07 AM
At the end of the day, the fact is that mean temperatures are based on two sampling points per day while high temperatures are based on only one so statistically they should be more accurate..

Well, in Winnipeg the summer highs are roughly the same as in Toronto but the mean is much lower because of the cooler nights. In spite of the difference in the mean temperatures, I would say that someone who wanted to enjoy a hot summer would be equally satisfied by a trip to either city. To advise them as to which destination is more appropriate on the basis of mean temperatures would be pretty misleading.

IntotheWest
Mar 17, 2007, 4:17 AM
Having said all that, the other reason Calgary's mean temperatures, average highs, whatever are so low is that the weather here is extreme. We literally see the coldest Winnipeg temps (well, -35 to -25 anyway). We also see the warmest Vancouver temps (again, +10 to +15). All of this can happen in the same month. In January. Typically the coldest month in the northen hemisphere. Hell, I've seen it come close to that in a single day.

I guess what I'm trying to say is that averages are meaningless here. The weather here seems to almost never be around average, and it certainly never feels close to average. It's either bloody cold or bloody warm. You truly have to live out here for a few winters to understand.

Freeweed - we are exactly on the same page :-)...your example of why mean temperature doesn't mean (no pun) as much here. Of course, on the coasts you can use it - it's often the same as the highs anyway (at least on the West Coast).

But I do want to correct you - I know you're just throwing out some examples, but -35c is fairly uncommon in Calgary...I know Calgarians throw around "-40c" a lot, but it just doesn't happen that often...in fact, we're down to about 2.5 nights a year that dips under -30c (without the WC of course).

To further your example of why mean is meaningless here, I always point to Pincher Creek, 1962 - and the fastest temperature change recorded in Canada It went from -19c to 22c in an hour (in the middle of the night, so although the average would be about 3c, the daytime was well above that)...The most I've felt is about 15c in a couple hours...starting at about 7pm at night. Now that will really mess some of you guys up, actually warming up after the sun goes down ;-)

freeweed
Mar 17, 2007, 4:18 AM
But one more thing: Yes, there are lots of tourists in Banff. Not "millions," but lots. Lots of people ski, and lots of people love mountains. They are beautiful. I've been to Banff, and enjoyed it very much. But lets get back to reality here. How many people vacation in Banff and places like that compared to the millions upon millions who go to Ibiza and Thailand and Cancun and the like? It's no contest.

Banff National Park is the most visited Alberta tourist destination and one of the most visited national parks in North America, with 3,927,557 visitors in 2004/2005. During summer, 42% of park visitors are from Canada (23% from Alberta), while 35% are from the United States, and 20% from Europe. (http://www.pc.gc.ca/pn-np/ab/banff/plan/plan7-05_E.asp)

MILLIONS. Every year. (this is a 12 month period being reported - Banff's annual reporting spans 2 calendar years as they tally this in the fall). They're forecasting in the range of 5 million visitors this year, and over half of these aren't even from Canada.

We don't just make these things up - we live it. I can't speak fully on the numbers for the places you mentioned; I know Mexico sees roughly 20 million per year. That's 20 million for the entire country. Banff is just one park. I'd say it more than holds its own by comparison. I will pass on a "no duh" to the fact that more people head to the tropics for winter vacations. I do it, everyone I know does it. That doesn't change the fact that millions more head to Banff year-round, cold weather and all.

rousseau
Mar 17, 2007, 4:27 AM
^^ I would think that the number of people who move anywhere primarily because of the weather is very small. Also, you can't conclude from the fact that many people like to go to warm places for a week or two in the winter that they prefer the overall climate, year-round, of that place to the overall climate of the place they're from.
If you include cross-border migrations due to civil disturbances and economic refugees and the like, then sure, the number of people moving just to be in a warmer climate is small. But to people for whom weather is an important factor, warm clearly trumps cold. And we are talking about weather here, not how many immigrants from warm countries are happily ensconced in Calgary.

It is rather compelling that holiday-makers overwhelmingly choose warm vacation spots, don't you think? And places with Mediterranean climates like California and Spain receive enormous numbers of "cold weather refugees."

Just as an aside: that Ed Begley quote looks a little suspicious. Calgary "heaven on earth?" Sounds just a little far-fetched. I'd bet dollars to donuts that he got his place names mixed up, and he really meant Banff or Lake Louise.

IntotheWest
Mar 17, 2007, 4:28 AM
The rest is basically conjecture and could be true of any place. There's nothing that I am aware of that indicates that the temperature distribution on an average day in Calgary is different from anywhere else along the average range.

I don't really want to get involved in the argument about which place is better but I see a lot of pretty dubious statements in these threads.

Rosseau - two things are obvious...you're still dodging the facts I've presented (look again, and then look at how you respond...it's pathetic). The second thing is you have no idea what you're talking about (just under 5 million tourists a year in Banff). Re-read some of my posts and get back to me, you've added absolutely nothing to your points.

Someone123 - How aware of the west are you, exactly? How long did you live or work in Calgary? Alberta? or BC? If you haven't, the being "aware" is going to be a tough thing - unless you dig through the stats. Otherwise, you may just want to trust what we're telling you, instead of simply claiming there's dubious statements.

I guess what would be more accurate than mean or daily highs would be to record the temperature when I go outside, the high, and then again when I go inside for the night - right? Anyhow, see examples above as to why mean isn't very representative...unless you're a plant (or maybe a dog :-)

Greco Roman
Mar 17, 2007, 4:35 AM
And to sum this whole thread up;

IT'S ALL RELATIVE TO THE PERSON!

:)

rousseau
Mar 17, 2007, 4:36 AM
Banff National Park is the most visited Alberta tourist destination and one of the most visited national parks in North America, with 3,927,557 visitors in 2004/2005. During summer, 42% of park visitors are from Canada (23% from Alberta), while 35% are from the United States, and 20% from Europe. (http://www.pc.gc.ca/pn-np/ab/banff/plan/plan7-05_E.asp)

MILLIONS. Every year. (this is a 12 month period being reported - Banff's annual reporting spans 2 calendar years as they tally this in the fall). They're forecasting in the range of 5 million visitors this year, and over half of these aren't even from Canada.

We don't just make these things up - we live it. I can't speak fully on the numbers for the places you mentioned; I know Mexico sees roughly 20 million per year. That's 20 million for the entire country. Banff is just one park. I'd say it more than holds its own by comparison. I will pass on a "no duh" to the fact that more people head to the tropics for winter vacations. I do it, everyone I know does it. That doesn't change the fact that millions more head to Banff year-round, cold weather and all.
I stand corrected on Banff's numbers. But that's about 2 million Canadian visitors to Banff. Meanwhile, 2 million Canadians go to Florida every year. Add in California, Mexico, the Carribean, etc. and the numbers of Canadians going to warmer destinations is significantnly higher than those going to colder ones.

IntotheWest
Mar 17, 2007, 4:38 AM
Just as an aside: that Ed Begley quote looks a little suspicious. Calgary "heaven on earth?" Sounds just a little far-fetched. I'd bet dollars to donuts that he got his place names mixed up, and he really meant Banff or Lake Louise.

Oh...so, now you're doubting actual quotes? He got a little confused? Well, look up all the articles from these Hollywood-types that come up in January for Kennedy's Waterkeeper Fundraiser - EVERY year...and look at ALL of their quotes, and you'll notice a trend. Why do they come back? Exactly for what Ed Begley mentioned. Even if he did mean Banff/Lake Louise (though, most of them have said how much they like Calgary as well...again, the reason Kennedy comes back anyway), as Freeweed pointed out, it's even COLDER! But they still love it. They say its great weather. Why do it in January? Why not when where a "little-less cold" (since, according to the Great Rousseau, we're never warm)?

As for travelling here in Winter - it is no shocker that Banff's high season is the summer season...however, go out there one winter, and you'll think you're in Australia, New Zealand or yes, Great Britain. This past winter has been exceptional for those travellers. They come here for winter?! Heck, on one of those episodes of "Extreme Makeover: Home Edition" they sent the family up to Banff from way down South...in winter!?

Anyway - go back again. Questioning a quote is just plain silly. Do you want me to itemize the arguments for you, so you can keep track? Or at least keep track of which ones you've actually addressed (not necessarily successfully, but hey, at least you tried, right?)

IntotheWest
Mar 17, 2007, 4:43 AM
I stand corrected on Banff's numbers. But that's about 2 million Canadian visitors to Banff. Meanwhile, 2 million Canadians go to Florida every year. Add in California, Mexico, the Carribean, etc. and the numbers of Canadians going to warmer destinations is significantnly higher than those going to colder ones.

wow...you're actually getting worse at this. So, now you're comparing one National Park with everything south of us? Even comparing an entire southern state (with a few cities to possibly visit), you're saying 50% of CANADIANS that can't stand WINTER WEATHER, actually pick much, much colder Banff (likely even colder than where they're from) than going to Florida?

I guess they vote with their feet, eh?

Andy6
Mar 17, 2007, 4:49 AM
If you include cross-border migrations due to civil disturbances and economic refugees and the like, then sure, the number of people moving just to be in a warmer climate is small. But to people for whom weather is an important factor, warm clearly trumps cold. And we are talking about weather here, not how many immigrants from warm countries are happily ensconced in Calgary.

Warm trumps extremely cold. But cool would probably also trump extremely hot. And for many people, variety and seasonal changes are also important. You yourself were going on about New England as the "king of the fall" or something, suggesting that in the autumn you see something attractive about being in New England, even though it would be possible on any fall day to leave New England for a place that was much warmer. Surely you would be miserable if you found yourself in New England on a sunny 60F autumn day, knowing all the places that you might have been instead that were experiencing obviously superior days with temperatures of 90F, 100F, 110F or even more delightfully hot than that.

It is rather compelling that holiday-makers overwhelmingly choose warm vacation spots, don't you think? And places with Mediterranean climates like California and Spain receive enormous numbers of "cold weather refugees."

I suppose they do. And places like Banff and Aspen and Whistler receive many visitors from warmer places aching to see some powder and enjoy a nice hot chocolate in front of the fire after a day in the cold. And since we're comparing Calgary year-round to other places year-round, it's important to repeat that the fact that people like to visit some other place for a brief period of time does not prove that they would prefer to live there year round. I might like my 2 weeks in the sun (although I really don't, personally) but it doesn't follow that I would enjoy 52 weeks in the sun.

The other problem with your argument is you assume that people can't claim that Calgary has a good climate unless (by some vague standard that seems to shift to suit your purposes at any given moment) it has the very best climate of all. In fact, there is nothing inconsistent in saying that Calgary has "great" weather and admitting that many other places have better weather, or weather that is preferred by more people or by greater numbers of elite readers of EIU reports such as yourself.

rousseau
Mar 17, 2007, 4:52 AM
Rosseau - two things are obvious...you're still dodging the facts I've presented (look again, and then look at how you respond...it's pathetic). The second thing is you have no idea what you're talking about
You've said a lot of things on this thread. You've presented a lot of facts. But when it comes to deciding whether or not Calgary's climate ranks as "great," certain facts would seem to weigh against that:

1. It averages below zero for five months of the year.
2. Summers are cool.
3. It even snows in summer most every year.

The great Hillel might have summed it up thusly: Calgary is cold. Everything else is commentary.

Goodbye.

rousseau
Mar 17, 2007, 5:15 AM
You yourself were going on about New England as the "king of the fall" or something, suggesting that in the autumn you see something attractive about being in New England, even though it would be possible on any fall day to leave New England for a place that was much warmer. Surely you would be miserable if you found yourself in New England on a sunny 60F autumn day, knowing all the places that you might have been instead that were experiencing obviously superior days with temperatures of 90F, 100F, 110F or even more delightfully hot than that.
I like cool weather, just not in the summer. The fall in New England is delightful after a hot summer.

And since we're comparing Calgary year-round to other places year-round, it's important to repeat that the fact that people like to visit some other place for a brief period of time does not prove that they would prefer to live there year round. I might like my 2 weeks in the sun (although I really don't, personally) but it doesn't follow that I would enjoy 52 weeks in the sun.
We're getting our travelling with our emigrating or wintering mixed up. I used the travelling to argue that most people are drawn like moths to heat more than to cold. Most, not all. Most. But the U.S., large enough to encompass several distinct climates, is a perfect test case. Where are people going who are at liberty to move to where they wish to go? The south and the southwest.

The other problem with your argument is you assume that people can't claim that Calgary has a good climate unless (by some vague standard that seems to shift to suit your purposes at any given moment) it has the very best climate of all. In fact, there is nothing inconsistent in saying that Calgary has "great" weather and admitting that many other places have better weather, or weather that is preferred by more people or by greater numbers of elite readers of EIU reports such as yourself.
Yes, I see your quibble, but I would argue that "great" becomes meaningless if it exists as a standard merely in relation to another standard which is "even greater." Having glanced at your blog and gleaned something of your political leanings, I'm a bit surprised at your contention: Is it all simply relative? (that's meant to be a light-hearted dig, by the way). I'm not arguing for absolutes, but are there no general parameters that work for the majority of people out there when it comes to climate? Is there no evidence? I have been arguing that there is...people voting with their feet. For all of the die-hard defenders of Calgary who will swear to their last breath that they love the weather there, there's no escaping the fact that Canada is viewed as a frozen country by people around the world, the majority of them living in far warmer climates. One can gush all one wants about chinooks, but it is clear that the difference between Calgary's climate and the Mediterranean climate is orders of magnitude, erm, greater than the difference between "great" and "even greater." Generally speaking.

ScottFromCalgary
Mar 17, 2007, 5:35 AM
Maybe I'll try some shit disturbing...

If the weather is so fuckin nice in southern Ontario, let's just shut off the gas and see how much they enjoy their climate. To steal a phrase from the old Alberta bumperstickers, "LET THOSE EASTERN BASTARDS FREEZE IN THE DARK".

P.S. St. Patty's has started early in my part of the world!:notacrook:

IntotheWest
Mar 17, 2007, 6:00 AM
You've said a lot of things on this thread. You've presented a lot of facts. But when it comes to deciding whether or not Calgary's climate ranks as "great," certain facts would seem to weigh against that:

1. It averages below zero for five months of the year.
2. Summers are cool.
3. It even snows in summer most every year.

The great Hillel might have summed it up thusly: Calgary is cold. Everything else is commentary.

Goodbye.

Andy - you summed it up well. Another location to illustrate when using highs vs means is a better representation is Flagstaff, Az...where this time of the year it will be definitely enjoying days reaching to 20c, but cool off to below 0c at night (6 months of the year it's average lows are below 0c). Yet, they have some great weather by my standards (summer can get quite warm during the day).

Rousseau - finally getting tired? Not working out so much? Well, you did poorly at summing things up as well.

Your generalized 3-point summary lacks proper substance - I'll fix your 3-point summary to better reflect our climate:

1. Winter can have plenty of nice days, with over half of the days seeing above 0c - and more sun than anywhere else in the country. Thanks to frequent Chinooks, Calgary can reach very comfortable daytime temperatures in winter.
2. Summers are pleasant (to steal the line from CNN Travel), with average daytime highs reaching 23c. Nights are cool, and may require a light jacket.
3. Historically, because of proximity to the mountains and high elevation, Calgary has seen traces of snow at night in the three warmest months. Fall nights are cool, and may see traces of snow, but daytime temperatures through Sept are pleasant with average highs of 17.5c.

There, that looks better...thanks for your commentary.

newflyer
Mar 17, 2007, 6:39 AM
Can someone lock up this thread please? It's going nowhere fast and is yet another thread that makes Winnipeg look like garbage. :hell:


:deadthread: :dead: :lockd:


Like I said it has nothing to do with Winnipeg. Its unfortunate its named Whats wrong with Winnipeg. Rename it and I'll be fine... It also doesn't belong in the Canada Midwest thread area either.

freeweed
Mar 17, 2007, 9:22 AM
the numbers of Canadians going to warmer destinations is significantnly higher than those going to colder ones.

The number of warmer destinations is significantly higher than colder ones, period. You'll notice my "no duh" comment.

Again, you try to reduce the entire discussion down to a popularity contest. "What? People disagree with me? Well, MORE people agree with me, so I'm still right and they're wrong!"

Or perhaps different people hold different opinions. Or maybe some of us even hold both! Scandalous!

freeweed
Mar 17, 2007, 9:31 AM
But the U.S., large enough to encompass several distinct climates, is a perfect test case. Where are people going who are at liberty to move to where they wish to go? The south and the southwest.

Which explains the 10 million people living in NYC... or are all of those people just the unlucky ones?

Your whole "vote with your feet" point really has little bearing on reality. Most of recorded history, ancient and modern, is about people moving from warmer climates to colder ones. You know, like that whole period of centuries where countries like Canada and the US were settled. You do know there's a huge Italian immigrant population in NYC, right?

freeweed
Mar 17, 2007, 9:43 AM
Like I said it has nothing to do with Winnipeg. Its unfortunate its named Whats wrong with Winnipeg. Rename it and I'll be fine... It also doesn't belong in the Canada Midwest thread area either.

The thing is, based on the current discussion, that must mean that the weather in Winnipeg is godawfully intolerable and no one could possibly ever want to do anything but kill themselves if they lived there. :haha:

I find this very relevant to Winnipeg, as jokers like this tend to be exactly the people who would ask such a stupid question as "what's wrong in Winnipeg?" just because it got cold for a few days. I was rather amazed that we didn't see a contingent of Winterpeggers out debating with this person, but then I realized y'all are probably smarter than I to have avoided the trollbait. :P

Andy6
Mar 17, 2007, 1:19 PM
Well it's actually good news for Winnipeg if all we can find to fill a "What's wrong with Winnipeg" thread is Calgary weather stats.

rousseau
Mar 17, 2007, 1:31 PM
The number of warmer destinations is significantly higher than colder ones, period. You'll notice my "no duh" comment.

Again, you try to reduce the entire discussion down to a popularity contest. "What? People disagree with me? Well, MORE people agree with me, so I'm still right and they're wrong!"

Or perhaps different people hold different opinions. Or maybe some of us even hold both! Scandalous!
Yes, you finally get it: my point has always been that it is a popularity contest. The most popular climate is the Mediterranean one.

Why not put the strawman to rest? You've been hacking away at him so long he must be nearly dead by now. I've never claimed that many people, like you, don't like Calgary's weather. But when it comes to the popularity contest, the vast majority do not because it's too cold. As is southern Ontario in the winter, for that matter.

And for the forty-seventh time, yes, I'm well aware that people move to New York City for economic motives, or because they're escaping tyranny or poverty. Well aware of that, thank you very much.

But, and try to read the words slowly here, maybe read them aloud so they penetrate your seemingly thick skull, because I've been repeating them often: PEOPLE WHO MOVE DUE TO WEATHER GO TO WARMER CLIMES.

vid
Mar 17, 2007, 2:17 PM
And how many people move due to weather?

I'm pretty sure the majority of weather refugees are in hot climate places.

rousseau
Mar 17, 2007, 2:31 PM
And how many people move due to weather?
That's a good question. And that's a different discussion. We were talking about the weather

I'm pretty sure the majority of weather refugees are in hot climate places.
Yes, so am I. That is exactly what I've been saying.

vid
Mar 17, 2007, 2:45 PM
A weather refugee (since you obviously don't know) is someone who has been displaced because the climate is too harsh.

Hurricane Katrina evacuees, for example, are weather or climate refugees.

freeweed
Mar 17, 2007, 3:52 PM
Why not put the strawman to rest? You've been hacking away at him so long he must be nearly dead by now. I've never claimed that many people, like you, don't like Calgary's weather.

No, your original claim was a troll along the lines of "you passive-aggressive defenders-to-the-death of the weather in Calgary" and "claiming a city's climate is great when it snows in summer is just freakin' crazy and worthy of ridicule." when someone responded saying "yeah, it snows in september, but it's nice otherwise". You've claimed that people cannot think Calgary's weather is "great" without being crazy. That was your original point, and window dressing aside, every word you've posted has gone towards showing us just how bad you think Calgary's weather is.

Strawman: I do not think that word means what you think it means.

Hint: a strawman would be to claim that we think a guy in Florida thinks Calgary's weather is great. None of us ever claimed this, you created this in your lame attempt to try to prove us "wrong". None of us ever claimed that the entire planet likes Calgary, again that was your creation.

All we said was that we believe, as do many, that Calgary's weather is "great". Several pages of incorrect statistics and an incomplete understanding of human motiviations, and you still do not get that. IT SNOWS IN SEPTEMBER has been your mantra. We get that. The weather's still great. Not to some guy who enjoys it 110F. We get that. It's still great.

Thanks for playing "you've entirely missed the point all along".

What's great is that through all this dialog, southern Ontario just got POUNDED buy snow and ice. A few days before spring. 30+ cms in some areas. And I thought it was crazy that Calgary got 15. It's SPRING NEXT WEEK AND THERE'S SNOW. OMG EVERYONE MOVE TO FLORIDA NOW!!

freeweed
Mar 17, 2007, 3:55 PM
A weather refugee (since you obviously don't know) is someone who has been displaced because the climate is too harsh.

Hurricane Katrina evacuees, for example, are weather or climate refugees.

This is the person who did not know what a block heater was at 18. A Canadian. I don't think they're nearly as world-savvy as they make out to be.

But wow, ad hominem attacks aside (see, now THAT's one!), if you go back and re-read this thread, it's basically been one long "Calgary's weather is bad and anyone who think so is stupid" rant. Wow, I thought Winnipeggers hated Calgary, but this person is off the deep end. :haha:

Can we talk about how lame cowboy hats and rodeos are now?

m0nkyman
Mar 17, 2007, 3:58 PM
Meanwhile, in Victoria they've finished the annual flower count:

3,364,658,680

http://www.tourismvictoria.com/uploads/images/flowercount/Daffodils2.jpg

http://www.tourismvictoria.com/uploads/images/flowercount/Caterpillar.jpg

freeweed
Mar 17, 2007, 4:18 PM
I hope to god that's an estimate. :D

vid
Mar 17, 2007, 5:13 PM
No I'm pretty sure they go and count them all. Isn't it usually around 4 billion though? Or am I remembering wrong?

newflyer
Mar 17, 2007, 6:33 PM
No I'm pretty sure they go and count them all. Isn't it usually around 4 billion though? Or am I remembering wrong?

There seems to be a lack of things to do in Victoria. :sly:

vid
Mar 17, 2007, 6:56 PM
They do it every year, it's an annual event. :P

It's a way of shoving their lovely climate in everyones faces! :haha:

spiritedenergy
Mar 17, 2007, 9:35 PM
And how many people move due to weather?

I'm pretty sure the majority of weather refugees are in hot climate places.

I'll do pretty soon, another canadian winter and I'll be ready for reincarnation (my next life will not forseen anything colder then the mediterranean climate, i've expiated enough cold karma):D

this is how my next life will look like:
http://www.fourseasons.com/images/generated/property/istanbul/landing_pages/basics_welcome.jpg

MasonsInquiries
Mar 18, 2007, 1:37 AM
i've never been to winnipeg, but i'll get there soon. beautiful city i hear.

spiritedenergy
Mar 18, 2007, 2:15 AM
i've never been to winnipeg, but i'll get there soon. beautiful city i hear.

are you sure????? that picture is not Winnipeg, it's a Constantinople view from an hotel room.

This is Winnipeg view from an hotel room:

http://www.nerdgrrl.org/albums/winnipeg/winnipeg_view_from_hotel_room.jpg

You can still save your life, do not come!!!!:haha:

p.s.: I've met many brazilians which are crazy for Winnipeg, how is that??? Do they read you some fairytales at school about Winnie the Pooh?

Marc B.
Mar 18, 2007, 4:20 AM
:previous: They must be attracted by all the ample parking.

vid
Mar 18, 2007, 1:31 PM
Coming from Thunder Bay, I find that image is beautiful. The urban landscape of Winnipeg is superb!

Andy6
Mar 18, 2007, 3:10 PM
It looks fine to me. Just a nondescript part of the downtown that tourists wouldn't even visit but there's still a lot of interesting things there. That little angle at Donald and Cumberland, where the Canada Building is, could be quite nice if redeveloped a bit. There's now quite a large office building where the construction site is in the photo.

Greco Roman
Mar 18, 2007, 3:56 PM
:omg:

That photo makes the area look like a ghetto.

Not very asthetically pleasing.

Brokenhead
Mar 18, 2007, 4:42 PM
Here's a view from an apartment from Watt St.

http://img232.imageshack.us/img232/381/resizeofresizeof1002286vr4.jpg

I always thought that picture made downtown look so gloomy, but it actually from the camera.

spiritedenergy
Mar 18, 2007, 8:27 PM
Coming from Thunder Bay, I find that image is beautiful. The urban landscape of Winnipeg is superb!

ok this is the urban landscape of my hometown, 80,000 souls (from google, diverse copyrights; quote this post to see the links):

http://fotografieinrete.ciannamea.it/blog/images/20060718235022_le%20persone%20di%20pistoia%20blues.jpg
http://www.advancefocusclick.com/images/pistoia.jpeg
http://www.nidil.cgil.it/images_sedi/pistoia.gif
http://static.flickr.com/35/94551186_e6783e3fae.jpg
http://www.elsolvillas.com/images/p_Villa%20Pistoia_Landscape_1.JPG
http://mk23.image.pbase.com/g3/84/629784/2/54677117.pistoia.jpg

Andy6
Mar 18, 2007, 8:48 PM
where do you park?

spiritedenergy
Mar 18, 2007, 9:07 PM
where do you park?

ahahh typical canadian question:D

we park along the streets, or is some parking lots (there are, but not as much as here, they'd never ever level any building to build a parking lot, it's forbidden); however, lack/cost of parking is a big issue.
I used to park out/on the edge of downtown and then walk wherever i need. Then i found a nice spot which it seems nobody knows (lateral of a church), and that has become my usual parking spot, it's very central; it's very narrow though, but i have a small car.
Now I'll try to find some pictures.

spiritedenergy
Mar 18, 2007, 9:16 PM
http://www.kreiter.info/familie/images/reiseberichte/toscana/pistoia15.jpg

ok this is the place, it's not very clear still: i park in the small street on the left, just under that green hanging plant.
I think the "comune" forgot about that spot, which is free; all places are usually not free (they cost pretty much if central) or forbidden for parking.

jimj_wpg
Mar 18, 2007, 9:58 PM
:omg:

That photo makes the area look like a ghetto.

Not very asthetically pleasing.

SpiritedEnergy, that's an old photo... that's where Credit Union Central building is now.

http://static.flickr.com/55/139950525_330edd0137_t.jpg

I think that Central Park could be more beautiful, more appealing to the eye, if there were better design standards in the area -- all those buildings, except for Knox United Church, are all square shaped.... Maybe something with more than 50% glass would help (a couple of Toronto-style condos. is what I'm thinking of).

http://www.torontolofts.net/images/dnarend.jpg

http://www.tridel.com/images/buildings/element_260.jpg

flatlander
Mar 18, 2007, 10:28 PM
I would love to get myself to Florence sometime. My wife and I went to France last fall instead of Italy because we figured we'd drop our tourist dollars in the country that lost the World Cup. I always go for the underdog. Hopefully the few hundred bucks we spent in France helped to ease the pain of losing the world cup.

Spiritedenergy how exactly did you end up here anyway?

IntotheWest
Mar 18, 2007, 10:32 PM
Those 3.3 billion flowers in Victoria are nice to see (same with seeing flowers in Van through winter)...still couldn't stand all the rain to live there...

Spirited - if you were going to show a pic of Winnipeg to someone that never saw the city before, that's the one you'd chose?? I think you could likely find thousands of more pleasing pics to show-off the Peg...

spiritedenergy
Mar 18, 2007, 10:53 PM
I would love to get myself to Florence sometime. My wife and I went to France last fall instead of Italy because we figured we'd drop our tourist dollars in the country that lost the World Cup. I always go for the underdog. Hopefully the few hundred bucks we spent in France helped to ease the pain of losing the world cup.

Spiritedenergy how exactly did you end up here anyway?

that's not Florence!!!! my hometown is 30 km from Florence... it belongs to Florence metro area, but we are still fully independent. Florence has 600,000 inhabitants, Pistoia 90,000 (correction from above, it grew of 10,000 in 5 years :sly: ). However i spent most of my last 10 years in Florence.

Go to Tuscany, it's probably the most beautiful place in the world, but avoid summers (or head straight to the beaches), you don't want to wander in the cities under 35-40 °C and 100% humidity, won't you?

I like to travel and wanted some education in North America.

someone123
Mar 18, 2007, 10:58 PM
I don't think Winnipeg looks that bad in that photo. Those buildings don't look terrible, there just aren't enough of them. That little trio of warehouses is nice.

Winnipeg's urban form is interesting to me because it's pretty much the opposite of what I'm used to. The city looks very flat, stocky, and ordered.

spiritedenergy
Mar 18, 2007, 11:07 PM
Those 3.3 billion flowers in Victoria are nice to see (same with seeing flowers in Van through winter)...still couldn't stand all the rain to live there...

Spirited - if you were going to show a pic of Winnipeg to someone that never saw the city before, that's the one you'd chose?? I think you could likely find thousands of more pleasing pics to show-off the Peg...

no, i'd probably show him this one:
http://us.a2.yahoofs.com/users/43e3435fzfeb1cef5/4db7scd/__sr_/25cdscd.jpg?phgkc_FBoUCQ8FLZ

it's from my personal booklet:rolleyes:

flatlander
Mar 18, 2007, 11:38 PM
I don't think Winnipeg looks that bad in that photo. Those buildings don't look terrible, there just aren't enough of them. That little trio of warehouses is nice.

Winnipeg's urban form is interesting to me because it's pretty much the opposite of what I'm used to. The city looks very flat, stocky, and ordered.

That's why I went to school in Halifax. We'll have to compare notes someday.

newflyer
Mar 19, 2007, 1:13 AM
SpiritedEnergy, that's an old photo... that's where Credit Union Central building is now.

http://static.flickr.com/55/139950525_330edd0137_t.jpg

I think that Central Park could be more beautiful, more appealing to the eye, if there were better design standards in the area -- all those buildings, except for Knox United Church, are all square shaped.... Maybe something with more than 50% glass would help (a couple of Toronto-style condos. is what I'm thinking of).

http://www.torontolofts.net/images/dnarend.jpg

http://www.tridel.com/images/buildings/element_260.jpg

Yeah you are so right.. those 2 buildings would make an excellent addition to that area. I would love to see something like that go up on Elise.

Andy6
Mar 19, 2007, 1:47 AM
To prove it's not ugly I've just spent 8 minutes making it into a lovely postcard...

http://farm1.static.flickr.com/159/426082677_1f2e1c20b7_b.jpg

newflyer
Mar 19, 2007, 2:09 AM
To prove it's not ugly I've just spent 8 minutes making it into a lovely postcard...

http://farm1.static.flickr.com/159/426082677_1f2e1c20b7_b.jpg

Very Good!!! :tup:

newflyer
Mar 19, 2007, 2:13 AM
That picture reminds me of a few hot summer days I spent at the Towne8.

That place is such a cool environment on a very hot summer day. :cool:

... of course now a days I live in cowtown.. so I just wear a sweater. :rolleyes:

jimj_wpg
Mar 23, 2007, 12:09 AM
One of the things wrong with Winnipeg is that we've become so desensitized to the underclass:

http://www.break.com/cod3x

:yuck:

Wake up Winnipeg, and take back the streets before it's too damned late!

newflyer
Mar 23, 2007, 1:20 AM
One of the things wrong with Winnipeg is that we've become so desensitized to the underclass:

http://www.break.com/cod3x

:yuck:

Wake up Winnipeg, and take back the streets before it's too damned late!


So where was the security... in many highend office buildings people like that don't even get through the front door. This is a very good example of why clean suburban types look down on the inner-city as a low life scum world.

Marc B.
Mar 23, 2007, 3:25 AM
Well, that's life in the city. Come on, who hasn't dropped one there?

rgalston
Mar 23, 2007, 1:49 PM
So where was the security... in many highend office buildings people like that don't even get through the front door. This is a very good example of why clean suburban types look down on the inner-city as a low life scum world.

I was more disguested by how poorly the "better classes" on that film were dressed...