[someone123]

Here is a good article from today's Daily News:


Halifax’s arrested development


STÉPHANE MASSINON
The Daily News

Heated discussion filled Council chambers when the so-called Twisted Sisters towers were up for debate. The 27-storey towers had ardent supporters on each side. It’s been almost a year since its approval, but another appeal begins today, so the project is no closer to getting started. Developers are trying to change the face of downtown Halifax. Can they?





Downtown Halifax has great potential, developers say. But it also has red tape. Lots of it.

“In a lot of large companies that are doing business all over Canada, the view is that Halifax has absolutely tremendous potential,” says Kevin Riles, president of the Urban Development Institute of Nova Scotia.

“But it’s over-regulated, things take too long to get developed and it’s not development friendly. There’s a lot of developers in real estate that would love to come to Halifax, but the time things take to get approved, or the uncertainty more than anything, is a problem, particularly with that appeal process,” Riles says.

Riles speaks for many of the area’s developers and his words point to a growing discontent about building in the heart of the city. He’d like to see more people living downtown — and so would city hall — but getting there is proving to be a challenge.

Today, the Nova Scotia Utility and Review Board is starting a public hearing into the so-called Twisted Sisters development project, one that received majority support from city hall, but has been entangled in appeals ever since.

A Nova Scotia Supreme Court judge is also about to deliver a verdict on an appeal based on whether Council acted within its procedural rules, while the URB will decide if the project meets the Municipal Planning Strategy.

“In that particular case, the concern among many is it’s on an old parking lot, it’s not next to any heritage and it’s not in a viewplane. So if there was one area in the city of Halifax (where) you think height would be considered, that would be the area,” Riles says.

These appeals come on the heels of a Nova Scotia Court of Appeal decision to not allow a proposed 17 storey hotel over a new Midtown Tavern.

“Every major development in the downtown recently has been appealed, in some cases rejected,” Riles says.

But not everyone agrees with him. Downtown Halifax Coun. Dawn Sloane says when trying to change the face of downtown, you have to be careful.

An eye-sore will be around for a long time.

Still, Riles says getting a project approved is too lengthy. An approval process that once took an average of six to nine months in the former cities of Halifax and Dartmouth, now takes a year-and-a-half, he says. That’s in part due to a group of people that he says want to “encapsulate Halifax and keep like it was in the 1970s.”

What irks him is not opposition, but more that an appeal process meant to protect the little guy is now used by special-interest groups that have philosophical differences with development.

“At the end of the day, you could have an entire community behind a project, you can have council support it unanimously and somebody comes out and appeals it. Even if that’s a frivolous appeal, that could take you six months to a year to get it knocked out. It’s the uncertainty and the ridiculousness of it.”



Dawn Sloane was one of five people on council to vote against the Twisted Sisters.

She insists Halifax isn’t anti-development; it’s just that many of the big projects that have come to council lately don’t live up to current planning rules.

What she wants to ensure is that the city avoids eye-sores — such as the Maritime Centre, which she calls a “terrible mistake” — by sticking to the rules.

An iconic building that will bring more people to the city need not be 27 storeys. It can be shorter and fit in well with its environment and surrounding heritage buildings, she says.

“No, I don’t feel frustrated by the fact that people can appeal. That’s democracy. Unfortunately those that do not like democracy wouldn’t understand that is the way it is. The public has the right to appeal, to question whether a judgement has been done properly.”

Austin French, manager of planning services with HRM, says there should be more clarity on the way.

The city is working with developers and others in adding more detail to its policies with a process called HRM by Design.

“What we’re looking at for the future through the HRM by Design project is more definitive policy statements and clarity for the developer going into the process about what types of height and what types of relationships between existing buildings and existing streetscapes are acceptable to HRM. That leaves less to debate in the public forum and less concern that there will be a need for an appeal,” French says.

He adds that of the hundred or so development proposals brought to council in a year, a relatively small number are appealed.

“The policies we have now certainly work and they’ve been useful in a lot of ways and they’ve brought about a lot of nice buildings. But it seems now that we’ve had them in place for a while, we’ve seen a certain pattern of things developing in HRM that it is reasonable now to get more specific, more detail in the policy and it should make things less contentious.”



The ultimate cost of delay, according to Kevin Riles, is one that ends up being paid by anyone who’s thinking of buying in downtown Halifax.


Simply put, if developers can only build short, squat buildings, the cost to live in a downtown condo will go up because there are fewer units for sale. If developers have to carry the cost of lengthy delays and legal fees, they will have to pass those off elsewhere — to buyers.

“So what will happen is the downtown of Halifax and the peninsula will become elitist. Only people with a certain amount of income and a large pot of money can afford that. That’s not what we want,” Riles says.

Height would make living downtown, and close to it, more affordable. And if the building is designed correctly — he cites Summer Gardens, the Spring Garden Road condos where Saege restaurant is located — most people don’t notice how tall it is.

People typically only see the first few floors and if it’s aesthetically pleasing and practical, everyone wins.

smassinon@hfxnews.ca



THE TWISTED SISTERS

• A $150 million project by developers United Gulf.

• Two 27 storey towers planned for the former Tex-Park site on Granville St. It would host condos, a hotel and have commercial space.

• In the Nova Scotia Supreme Court appeal, opponents argued the buildings would be out of scale with the rest of downtown, would block views from Citadel Hill and cast shadows on the downtown.

• On March 21, 2006, councillors voted 15 to five in favour of the project.

----

Riles brings up a good point that has been discussed ad nauseum on this forum, which is that the heritage advocates are abusing the system to promote their vision for downtown development. They don't care about "clarifying" the MPS. They will simply appeal buildings they don't like whenever there is room to appeal. What is unfair about this is that it takes so long to weed out the frivolous appeals. In Halifax you can stall a $150M project for six months or longer simply by spending a few hundred dollars.

Dawn Sloane also has pretty much zero credibility at this point given her performance in council. The overly dramatic speech she gave on the night of the United Gulf vote made very little sense, just like her "democracy" comment. How is allowing a handful of people to torpedo developments more democratic?

Claims that these developments should go "somewhere else" are also bogus. If this were proposed in another location it would still be appealed, probably by the same people, who would then say that it should be downtown. The Cogswell interchange thing is a non-starter because the land isn't even available yet, and this has already dragged on for over three years.

[alps]

Twisted Sisters would help revitalize downtown

PAUL MACKINNON
The Daily News

The debate around the “Twisted Sisters” will be the turning point in downtown development policies. Construction downtown has been stalled for several decades because the rules, as outlined in the city’s Municipal Planning Strategy (MPS), are too vague.

It was in the wake of the debate that the city initiated the HRM by Design project — which will, once and for all, establish a clear vision for what we want our downtown to look like in the next 50 years. Once clear guidelines are in place, the developments we want can happen expediently. If these guidelines had already been in place, perhaps Research In Motion would have built its new building downtown, where it should be.

The Twisted Sisters development will bring new residents, which is the only sure way to revitalize our downtown. In 1960, there were 30,000 more people living on the Halifax peninsula than there are today. We need to bring those numbers back, which does require more high-density residential units. The people who live in this development will walk to work (thus reducing congestion), attend the theatre, eat in the restaurants, and shop in the downtown boutiques. The people of HRM, regardless of where they live, deserve a strong downtown.

Authentic heritage is important to the city. The turn-of-the-century architecture along Barrington Street is but one example of the unique style that defines us. Barrington Street deserves to be a designated Historic District, with strong protection against demolition. But protecting sensitive areas sometimes comes with the trade-off of taller buildings nearby. We don’t want a 27-storey building on Barrington, which would dwarf the three-to-five story mercantile shops. So we have to allow that to happen elsewhere in the downtown. The old Texpark sat between MetroPark and the Centennial Building. Neither are historic nor architectural gems. Authentic heritage must be protected, but room must also be allowed for freedom to create the great architecture of the 21st century.


Tall buildings do exist in downtown Halifax. But few were designed with careful consideration for the pedestrian environment. United Gulf was one of the first developers to really engage the community in the design process, and the end result is one that will be beautiful, and will work, from the ground up. We don’t need any more Maritime Centres — we need a bold statement of modern architecture that follows good urban design principles. This one would do exactly that.

Paul MacKinnon is the executive director of the Downtown Halifax Business Commission.

_______________________________________________________________

Twisted sisters hearings begin

By AMY PUGSLEY FRASER City Hall Reporter

A hearing gets underway in Halifax today that will determine whether a pair of glass towers will be built in Halifax’s downtown or if the designated lot remains empty.

Last March, regional council approved a $150-million condo and hotel project for the old Tex-Park site on the corner of Hollis and Sackville streets.

Council’s approval was necessary because planning strategies only allow buildings that are 40 feet (12.2 metres) high without any public consultation or hearing process.

The twin towers in United Gulf’s development reach 27 storeys — a pair of complementary glass and copper designs that curve up and out and have come to be known as the Twisted Sisters.

And while the nickname may have caught on, council’s decision didn’t.

A few weeks after the project was given the city hall thumbs-up in a 15-5 decision, a number of heritage groups, including Heritage Trust of Nova Scotia, appealed the approval to the Nova Scotia Utility and Review Board.

To hear their arguments, the URB has set aside the next two weeks, including a session on Wednesday evening to hear from members of the public.

Mayor Peter Kelly remembers well the dozens of people who turned out to council chambers to speak for and against the contentious project and can recall the quandary he went through when it came time to vote.

"It was not an easy decision in terms of just saying yes or no," he recalled in a recent interview, noting he wanted to "analyze and visualize" the project’s impact before making a decision.

"Before the vote, I took the time to go down to the site."

"I walked around . . . and tried to step back in different locations to get the impact from the adjoining buildings in terms of the bulk and scale and architectural blending."

The mayor says he also went up to Citadel Hill to figure out how the two towers would impact the view planes from the star-shaped fortress.

Knowing he was going to vote against the project, Mr. Kelly says he decided to take the unusual step of speaking at the public hearing last March.

"I normally don’t speak at public hearings or at council that much, but this time I did make my comments known," the mayor said.

His mind was made up "when I read the MPS (municipal planning strategy) documentation, and in particular the protection of the view planes, the bulk and scale in the context of existing buildings, and the architectural detail in comparison to the other buildings and complexes in the area."

He said the development could provide the city with some "great signature buildings."

Just not there.

"It’s not the best location," he said.

"I see this more for the area of the Cogswell interchange," he said, referring to the 6.4 hectares the city will take over when the interchange is removed in the near future.

Under its mandate, the Nova Scotia Utility and Review Board will only consider whether council’s decision is consistent with the municipal planning strategy. How council arrived at its decision is irrelevant.

In the meantime, United Gulf’s Granville Street lot — about 30,000 square feet commercially assessed at $1.98 million — remains empty, as it has been since the summer of 2004 when the Tex-Park was torn down.

’It’s not the best location. I see this more for the area of the Cogs-well interchange.’
_______________________________________________________________

There was another article I can't find in the Herald today that said that only 13/61 of the submissions the review board received were against the development. :cheers:

[Amanita]

I'm one of the positive letter writers:)
The first article said it all- developers ARE watching Halifax to see how this plays out. If this and other great projects get killed off, then they may very well decide to take their money, projects, and jobs elsewhere. Which means we lose. Big time.

[Keith P.]

I'm one of the positive letter-writers as well.

The following diatribe from Howard Epstein also appeared in the DN today. Comments follow:

We need to maintain our sense of history

HOWARD EPSTEIN
The Daily News

On an appeal to the Nova Scotia Utility and Review Board, only one question is the focus: does the Twisted Sisters development reasonably meet the intent of the Municipal Planning Strategy (MPS)? So, did HRM get it wrong? We think so:

• Scale: The MPS emphasizes human scale as an important value. The towers are out of scale.

• Views: The MPS requires council to maintain views to the Harbour from Citadel Hill. The board and the Nova Scotia courts have ruled this means more than the specific view planes.

• Design: The MPS requires design that reflects the architectural heritage of downtown.

• Pedestrians: The MPS wants pedestrian circulation to be promoted. The towers will generate too much wind.

• Heritage: The MPS calls for enhancement of the city’s heritage features. It focuses on sensitive and complementary development, mostly through limiting height. The towers are too tall.

There is much more in the MPS, all to the same effect. All of these policies were before the URB in the Midtown Tavern case the previous year. The board found that proposal to fail the MPS. The twin-towers proposal has to fit exactly the same set of policies. We think it, too, fails.

What is not relevant?

• Aesthetics: This is not about whether anyone likes the proposed buildings. Densification: compact urban form is desirable, including on the peninsula, but can be achieved without building tall towers.

• Democracy: It is not undemocratic to appeal a council decision; eight provinces have appeal boards; they exist for good reasons; appeals are taken by developers as often as by residents.

• Architectural Attractiveness: The claim that these buildings would make Halifax a tourist destination is extremely implausible; where new buildings are an attraction it is because they are public buildings (eg: art galleries); these are not buildings for the public.

Why did council get it wrong? First, it sold the land to the developer in 2004 and to get the best price, it offered a tower.‚ Second, this was the first occasion the full council dealt with a development agreement application for the Halifax downtown; many councillors were not familiar with the relevant policies. Third, council ignored the URB’s ruling in the Midtown Tavern decision which would have guided it on the policies. Last, in their preoccupation with thoughts of the future, it forgot that it is the existing policies that have to guide decision making.

The MPS policies were generated through a wide public consultation process in 1978 and have occasionally been amended over the years. If council believes it is time to change the MPS, it could start that process. But 80 per cent of the public who commented to council opposed this development proposal. We believe the MPS still reflects what the public wants for the downtown.

Last point: What about economic development? No one wants the site to sit empty. Clearly, some development there is desirable.But a lot of buildings in the CBD are financial successes, at a much lower height (Four Points Sheraton, Cambridge Suites, Marriott Hotel, Prince George Hotel, Homburg Building). And a denser Peninsula could exist without further building at all. In 1970, 50 per cent more people lived on the Peninsula, all prior to the building of any but a few tall buildings here.

We have land for further development if it is needed. The success of our CBD will depend on the port, on our ingenuity, on our level of education, on our attractiveness as a tourist destination. What makes Halifax a tourist destination is the maintenance of our sense of history through respect for our buildings. Just as the MPS says.

Howard Epstein is MLA for Halifax Chebucto. He will represent three heritage organizations at the URB hearings that start today.


I think Howard is generating alot more wind than the towers ever would. I love his comment, "this is not about democracy." Certainly not, if he gets his way, hijacking a broadly-supported decision of council for the sake of his own narrow-minded special interests. And he tries to make the case for more short, stubby buildings as the only thing appropriate for downtown. Amazing how an otherwise smart man can be such a pig-head on this.

[bluenoser]

Here's another article from the CBC website:

'Twisted Sisters' debate resumes before regulator (http://www.cbc.ca/canada/nova-scotia/story/2007/02/05/towers-uarb.html)

"The lawyer for United Gulf Developments didn't make an opening statement, but Robert Grant said he intends to call seven experts of his own to make the case for the company's project."

And one from the Daily News

Heritage lawyers serious about 'Twisted Sisters' development appeal (http://www.hfxnews.ca/index.cfm?sid=8098&sc=89)

[bluenoser]

We need to maintain our sense of history

HOWARD EPSTEIN
The Daily News


This one's a real kicker. Talk about arrested development!

Some of the things he brought up here... at first they really angered me, but then I just laughed at them and sighed in relief, that these are the best points they've got against the proposal.

[someone123]

Epstein's diatribe was pretty poorly written. His opening paragraph is awkward and doesn't really emphasize that he is against the proposal, and his points all rely on his own very questionable personal judgements.

None of the anti-development people want to accept the wind study, but it demonstrated that the buildings would make no net difference to wind levels in the surrounding streets, which isn't terribly surprising.

His claims that the towers are out of scale and too tall are meaningless because that is what is at issue. Him saying that the towers are inappropriate does not make it so. On the contrary, the towers are surrounded by other buildings of similar height.

The MPS does not require that all new buildings mimic heritage properties, not that there really are any adjacent to this site anyway.

[someone123]

This is also a gem:

Last point: What about economic development? No one wants the site to sit empty. Clearly, some development there is desirable.But a lot of buildings in the CBD are financial successes, at a much lower height (Four Points Sheraton, Cambridge Suites, Marriott Hotel, Prince George Hotel, Homburg Building). And a denser Peninsula could exist without further building at all. In 1970, 50 per cent more people lived on the Peninsula, all prior to the building of any but a few tall buildings here.

The buildings he mentions are all quite plain, and he's totally out to lunch with his suggestion that the population of the peninsula could return to past levels without new construction, particularly when some of his constituents are doing all they can to keep the number of people per dwelling down.

[Jonovision]

I was quite amused by Epsteins claim that 80% of the people who spoke up were against the development?! First off, I would say at the hearing it was around 75% and 25% for the development. Not too mention councils vote of with a clear majority....seems to me these ELECTED!!!! officials are those who represent the views and positions of those they represent....also many of the letters written to council, the URB and the papers have all had a positive outlook towards this development.
He is soooooo full of crap it's not even funny!!! All I can do is laugh at him.

[ErickMontreal]

The buildings he mentions are all quite plain, and he's totally out to lunch with his suggestion that the population of the peninsula could return to past levels without new construction, particularly when some of his constituents are doing all they can to keep the number of people per dwelling down.

I was quite amused by Epsteins claim that 80% of the people who spoke up were against the development?! First off, I would say at the hearing it was around 75% and 25% for the development. Not too mention councils vote of with a clear majority....seems to me these ELECTED!!!! officials are those who represent the views and positions of those they represent....also many of the letters written to council, the URB and the papers have all had a positive outlook towards this development.
He is soooooo full of crap it's not even funny!!! All I can do is laugh at him.

:worship:

[sdm]

I'm one of the positive letter writers:)
The first article said it all- developers ARE watching Halifax to see how this plays out. If this and other great projects get killed off, then they may very well decide to take their money, projects, and jobs elsewhere. Which means we lose. Big time.

I am interested in the outcome of the appeal albeit that i am one of the people that is not in favor of such a development for a number of economic and physical reasons. Nonethless this is not the reason for my reply.

I disagree with you on the developers are waiting to see what happens and will take their money else wheres. I know that the company i work for will not be taking their money and projects elsewheres just because of a few projects getting turned down.

On a side note, does anyone have thoughts on how United Gulf can manage both projects? Seeing how they have failed on the motherhood project and will require further cash for this project, i am starting to wonder how they will be able to do both? Anyhow just a question i thought some would like to discuss.

[ErickMontreal]

'Twisted Sisters' debate resumes before regulator

Heritage group says proposed towers inappropriate for downtown Halifax

Last Updated: Monday, February 5, 2007 | 4:13 PM AT
CBC News

http://www.cbc.ca/gfx/images/news/photos/2007/02/05/ns-towers-unitedgulf.jpg

A heritage group fired off its opening salvo Monday to prevent 27-storey twin towers from going up in downtown Halifax.

A hearing before the Nova Scotia Utility and Review Board began Monday with opening arguments into the $150-million proposal by United Gulf Developments.

The company wants to build two 27-storey towers at the old Tex-Park site at Sackville and Hollis streets to house a hotel, condominiums and offices.

Because of its curvy combination of glass, copper and stone, the project has been nicknamed the Twisted Sisters.

But heritage groups argue that the towers wouldn't fit in with the other buildings in the area.

"The proportion of the towers to the adjacent and existing buildings is so out of whack that it cannot be said to be complementary at all," said Ronald Pink, lawyer for the Heritage Trust of Nova Scotia.
Pink also told the review board that the towers would destroy the view from Citadel Hill, something, he said, is supposed to be protected by local development rules.

He intends to call six expert witnesses to back up his arguments.

Halifax regional council approved the proposal last March. But a number of groups opposed to the project appealed that decision to the utility and review board.

Karen Brown, the municipality's lawyer, said Monday the rules are flexible enough to give councillors some say over new development.

"This case," she said, "is about how council must balance the competing interests that often exist in the municipal planning strategy and that define Halifax's central business district."

The lawyer for United Gulf Developments didn't make an opening statement, but Robert Grant said he intends to call seven experts of his own to make the case for the company's project.

The hearing is expected to last two weeks.

[Smevo]

I got into a nice little debate with my aunt from Fall River over these things. She said "I don't want anymore tall buildings downtown, I like downtown the way it is" to which I replied "If tall buildings don't go downtown, they'll end up in your backyard." The rest of the family quickly changed the subject before it got too heated. I like replying to one ridiculous statement with another, makes people stop and think. :cheers:

[Architype]

Hope this development gets built for Halifax, but also that it is of quality design. To be cautious, however, who would have known at the time that Scotia Square, or Maritime Centre would have turned out as bad as they now seem to be viewed? I think Atlantic Canadians equate the modern city to the stereotype of Toronto, and they don't want a "Toronto" in their area.

[sdm]

Interesting artlicles in the all novascotia this morning on the hearing. Saberi just stated something that makes me believe this project will never be built, which is a rumour that is now coming to the surface in the development industry. The comment was "right now is a (good) condo market but you always have to fear of what will happen to the market in three years from now"

Obviously i will be flamed, but i feel inclined to comment.

Just for the record i believe in tall buildings, however i don't believe in condos in the center of the CBD.

[someone123]

Well, it's in his best interest for the process to move along as quickly as possible. He is not going to say "oh well, we could build this whenever".

Either way, that comment sheds light on the big problem with these lengthy appeals, which is that it's extremely difficult for developers to know what kind of market they will be dealing with by the time their project is actually approved (if it is ever approved) and can be pre-sold. That kind of uncertainty is extremely bad for business in the downtown area, particularly when it is competing with suburbs where buildings can be approved in a few months to absorb whatever demand exists.

[skyscraper_1]

I got into a nice little debate with my aunt from Fall River over these things. She said "I don't want anymore tall buildings downtown, I like downtown the way it is" to which I replied "If tall buildings don't go downtown, they'll end up in your backyard." The rest of the family quickly changed the subject before it got too heated. I like replying to one ridiculous statement with another, makes people stop and think. :cheers:
"I like the downtown the way it is"...like its perfect already? Has she even gone downtown lately?:D

[Wishblade]

Interesting artlicles in the all novascotia this morning on the hearing. Saberi just stated something that makes me believe this project will never be built, which is a rumour that is now coming to the surface in the development industry. The comment was "right now is a (good) condo market but you always have to fear of what will happen to the market in three years from now"

Obviously i will be flamed, but i feel inclined to comment.

Just for the record i believe in tall buildings, however i don't believe in condos in the center of the CBD.

But you must remember, this isnt just a condo project. Its to have retail, office, and hotel space on top of that. But I do believe in some condo space downtown because lets face it, we need to move more people downtown, and a lot more people onto the penninsula. The only way to do that is to increase the number of units as to drive costs down.

[sdm]

But you must remember, this isnt just a condo project. Its to have retail, office, and hotel space on top of that. But I do believe in some condo space downtown because lets face it, we need to move more people downtown, and a lot more people onto the penninsula. The only way to do that is to increase the number of units as to drive costs down.

I understand it is just not condo;s but mixed use. Nonetheless it is what is.

What i am seeing is the costs going through the roof for new developments with the storage in the labour market and activity going on with developments. I bet you see a number of planned developments put on hold or delayed because of the number of trades people leaving here for out west. A shame really........

[Smevo]

"I like the downtown the way it is"...like its perfect already? Has she even gone downtown lately?:D

:haha: I dunno, I doubt it. She just likes to argue. :cheers:

[Amanita]

People bitch about the shortage of skilled tradespeople, crying about how everyone is going out west. Well, I've been trying to get started as an apprentice crane operator here for awhile now. So many skilled tradespeople are leaving, but nobody seems interested in training new ones at the moment.

[bluenoser]

I got into a nice little debate with my aunt from Fall River over these things.

Smevo, you have an aunt in Fall River? I'm originally from Fall River! Maybe we're distant cousins or something...

[Halifax Hillbilly]

I disagree with you on the developers are waiting to see what happens and will take their money else wheres. I know that the company i work for will not be taking their money and projects elsewheres just because of a few projects getting turned down.

The types of proposals will definetly change if the Twisted Sisters appeal goes through. This thread makes it seem like there is nothing in between the twin towers (27 stories) and those dinky little four story hotels being built everywhere in town. If the appeal goes through than we definetly get a stall in very big projects for a long time, but whose to say developers don't start proposing in the 12-18 range, which I think would be very tough to get shelved in most parts of downtown (the midtown being one exception, I think the right call was made). If the Twisted Sisters is shelved it doesn't automatically doom Halifax to nothing but four stories buildings in the core.

[someone123]

The types of proposals will definetly change if the Twisted Sisters appeal goes through. This thread makes it seem like there is nothing in between the twin towers (27 stories) and those dinky little four story hotels being built everywhere in town. If the appeal goes through than we definetly get a stall in very big projects for a long time, but whose to say developers don't start proposing in the 12-18 range, which I think would be very tough to get shelved in most parts of downtown (the midtown being one exception, I think the right call was made). If the Twisted Sisters is shelved it doesn't automatically doom Halifax to nothing but four stories buildings in the core.

A lot of people are not very knowledgeable in this area and I think that the heritage advocates have deliberately tried to frame the debate in such a way that the United Gulf proposal seems unique and outlandish. The fact is that its scale is nothing new. There are several buildings of equal height within a couple of blocks on both Hollis and Granville. Barrington, the heritage wonderland, has five highrise office towers. Fenwick, built around 1969-1970, is significantly taller than the United Gulf towers. Whoever says that they would be "out of place" is either out to lunch or trying to mislead people.

The notion that there hasn't been any other highrise construction in a long time is also false. There's a new 20 storey building in Dartmouth and at least half a dozen 12-17 storey buildings have been built on the peninsula in the past few years (Garden Crest I and II, Martello, Paramount, Stadacona, Gladstone I and II).

[Halifax Hillbilly]

A lot of people are not very knowledgeable in this area and I think that the heritage advocates have deliberately tried to frame the debate in such a way that the United Gulf proposal seems unique and outlandish. The fact is that its scale is nothing new. There are several buildings of equal height within a couple of blocks on both Hollis and Granville. Barrington, the heritage wonderland, has five highrise office towers. Fenwick, built around 1969-1970, is significantly taller than the United Gulf towers. Whoever says that they would be "out of place" is either out to lunch or trying to mislead people.

The notion that there hasn't been any other highrise construction in a long time is also false. There's a new 20 storey building in Dartmouth and at least half a dozen 12-17 storey buildings have been built on the peninsula in the past few years (Garden Crest I and II, Martello, Paramount, Stadacona, Gladstone I and II).

I agree with this assesment. On the flip side a lot of people who favour the towers are trying to frame this as a referendum on development. If we say no to United Gulf than there is no possible way that anything will ever get built downtown in the next decade that's over six stories.

I think this position is also misleading. If there is demand for commercial, residential, hotels, whatever downtwon someone is gonna try and build it.

The midtown developer was recently in the paper saying he would try again. He figured he might get 15 stories by. That's the kind of attitude you will see if the Twisted Sisters are quashed. Someone is gonna say so we can't have 27 stories, what about 23?

[Wishblade]

The midtown developer was recently in the paper saying he would try again. He figured he might get 15 stories by. That's the kind of attitude you will see if the Twisted Sisters are quashed. Someone is gonna say so we can't have 27 stories, what about 23?

But thats whats wrong with this situation. Im tired of buildings being reduced in height because of these very shallow points that these heritage groups bring up. In my mind, if anything we should be building taller than 27 stories.

[DuffMan]

In reality, the biggest part of their complaint is that the proposal blocks the harbour view. The building would have to be about 10 stories or lower for it not to block the view.

I am pretty confident the proposal will pass the URB appeal. Assuming this happens, when is the supreme court appeal set for (where the heritage groups are compaining about lack of public consultation on the wind stidy)? It would be great if that could be settled by summer time and construction break ground by fall.

[someone123]

I have no idea when the supreme court appeal will be finished, and I don't really know what the chances are with that, although the heritage groups seem to be grasping at straws. The report was made available ahead of time and they didn't bother to ask for it, not that it is that significant anyway.

Hopefully they will lose their URB appeal and then drop the appeal to the supreme court.

I am also fairly confident about the URB appeal. The Midtown appeal was upheld because of its proximity to the Citadel. That same issue does not exist with the United Gulf site, despite the fact that Howard Epstein seems to think that they are the same.