[Shodan]

Cost of rebuilding downtown art gallery soars to $88M

By FRANK LANDRY, CITY HALL BUREAU
February 9, 2007 - Edmonton Sun

http://www.edmontonsun.com/2007/02/09/edmmodel298.jpg

Tony Lippino, executive director of the Art Gallery of Alberta, shows a model of the rebuilt gallery that's proposed for the 99 Street and 102A Avenue location. (WALTER TYCHNOWICZ, SUN)

The cost of rebuilding the Art Gallery of Alberta has soared a whopping 55% since 2005 - and it looks like taxpayers will be stuck picking up most of the $88-million tab.

Tony Luppino, the gallery's executive director, said a world-class art facility should be a "pressing priority" for the city. But critics say it's a frivolous expense that should be put on the backburner in favour of much-needed road improvements.

"This is not a frill," Luppino told the Sun yesterday.

"I think that is just a crazy argument when people say things like that. This is essential to attracting the population we need to keep this province growing."

The cost of rebuilding the art gallery at 99 Street and 102A Avenue is now estimated at $88 million, up from from $57 million, according to a new city document.

The province's super-heated economy is being blamed for the massive spike.

With construction slated to begin this spring, Luppino will ask council on Tuesday to increase its contribution to $21 million, up from $6 million.

Similar requests will be made from the provincial and federal governments.

The gallery is also ramping up its own fundraising efforts. So far $10 million has been raised in private donations.

Scott Hennig, with the Canadian Taxpayers Federation, said the city should concentrate on providing core services rather than doling out arts funding. He said a new overpass on 23 Avenue at Calgary Trail should be a more pressing priority.

"That would certainly rank a lot higher on a lot of people's priority lists than the art gallery," Hennig said.

Coun. Kim Krushell said $15 million seems a tad steep.

"That being said I really would like to see the art gallery go ahead," she said.

Coun. Mike Nickel said both the gallery expansion and an overpass on 23 Avenue are necessary.

The existing 50,000-square-foot building will morph into an 80,000-square-foot landmark - an ultra-modern structure of glass, steel and brick. It would open in 2009.
_________________________________________________________________

Worth it for a "signature" landmark? You be the judge.....:cool:

I wonder if the curved surfaces are a water slide or for skateboarders......Just kidding! :jester:

[CMD UW]

/\ Yes, this is an important showpiece for the city. It's something unique that lacks in Edmonton and the Province for that matter.

[big W]

Damn it I hope they don't start to whine about the costs. I am willing to bet some guy at the SUN will bring is up. THis is a showpeice this city needs. Build it Edmonton, BUILD IT.

[ExcaliburKid]

I have no doubt Paula Simons will defend this and urge the city to cough up the dough. The Journal rules.

[Rocket252]

A question for the contractors out there - Out of the 31 million increase what percentage would be labor and what percentage materials?

Also how are contractors providing bids when costs seem to escalate every few months?

[Boris2k7]

Scott Hennig, with the Canadian Taxpayers Federation, said the city should concentrate on providing core services rather than doling out arts funding. He said a new overpass on 23 Avenue at Calgary Trail should be a more pressing priority.

Someone in Edmonton, PLEASE tell Scott Hennig that he and the CTF can go **** themselves.

[CorporateWhore]

I hate the CTF, they are most anal retentive douchebags ever. Life is not always a fricking spreadsheet, you dillholes.

[feepa]

Someone in Edmonton, PLEASE tell Scott Hennig that he and the CTF can go **** themselves.

CTF - AB
#202 - 10621 100th Avenue
Edmonton, AB
T5J 0B3

Tf: 1-800-661-0187
Ph: 780-448-0159
Cell: 780-953-4484
Fx: 780-482-1744


Scott Hennig
Alberta Director

Email: shennig@taxpayer.com

[Boris2k7]

Hahahaha :banana:

(no, I'm not literally going to do it, I just hope that your City Council will do it symbolically)

I can just imagine that conversation:

"Hello, Scott speaking"
"Uhhh, Hi Scott, this is Boris from Calgary"
"I'm sorry, who are you?"
"I just wanted to call and tell you, uhhh..."
...
"Go **** yourself Scott! Edmonton deserves the art gallery first and not your shitty little overpass. And, uh, yeah."
*click*
Scott: 0_o

[240glt]

A question for the contractors out there - Out of the 31 million increase what percentage would be labor and what percentage materials?

Also how are contractors providing bids when costs seem to escalate every few months?

Impossible to break down for the entire job, but for mechanical and electrical work material pricing has escalated faster than labor costs.

Bids are only valid for a period of time, when prices are volatile that time period is short. Many of these projects have been re-bid several times over.

[ssiguy]

Like most I find the increase in the price is alarming but if it is due to skyrocketing labour and construction costs then there is nothing they can do.
The amount is still pretty paultry considering AGO expansion is costing $200million and ROM expansion is $400 million.
This doesn't mean that money should be thrown all over the place but a city needs its cultural institutions or it goes from being a place to live to just a place to work.

[walli]

Why is Edmonton getting a gallery? Shouldn't it go to the capital city - Calgary?

[Jasper and one o nin]

CTF - AB
#202 - 10621 100th Avenue
Edmonton, AB
T5J 0B3

Tf: 1-800-661-0187
Ph: 780-448-0159
Cell: 780-953-4484
Fx: 780-482-1744


Scott Hennig
Alberta Director

Email: shennig@taxpayer.com

done and done

[Jasper and one o nin]

Why is Edmonton getting a gallery? Shouldn't it go to the capital city - Calgary?

I think your talents would be better utilized in the trailerpark forum

[feepa]

done and done
Care to include what your email message said?

[Coldrsx]

If anyone does not realize what costs are doing right now, please do not do anything.

This art gallery better go ahead as planned or im gonna fume.

[Boris2k7]

Okay, so I did end up sending a message. I hope that this works well enough (I'm not used to sending this type of message)


Hello Mr. Hennig,

I am an student at the University of Calgary, and have recently noticed your comments that were in the Edmonton Sun surrounding the increases in costs to the Art Gallery of Alberta. As you know, you argued that the overpass at Calgary Trail "... would certainly rank a lot higher on a lot of people's priority lists than the art gallery."

My concern over this is that I think the Art Gallery actually provides Edmontonians more value for their money than the overpass. Part of this argument comes from studies in Transportation Planning, where the concept of induced traffic is well known. This is to say that in all likelihood, the overpass will actually cause more people to drive on the roads and only momentarily help relieve congestion (if at all). The money, then, is effectively wasted. An LRT line, for example, would cost more to taxpayers initially (only speaking of capital costs) but decrease the need for road building in the future by displacing more cars. This is a fairly substantiated claim, that can be seen in many American cities building LRT right now. Look at Denver or Salt Lake City for starters.

When we look at the Art Gallery though, the costs are less than the overpass, but it still would live up to its purpose and provide Edmontonians to a valuable resource. Not only does it help to increase the cultural awareness of Edmontonians, it helps Edmonton live up to its city image as one of a sophisticated Prairie city. Not that this matters in taxation terms, but it is a reason that more people and businesses would want to move to Edmonton.

I only hope that you take these concerns into account and perhaps readdress the issue. It would be a shame to see taxpayer dollars wasted on a piece of infrastructure that will prove itself useless.

Sincerely,
(Boris550)

-Director of the Calgary Urban Initiative
www.calgaryurban.com

I put my real name in the message of course, not that hiding it here matters. It was also hastily written...

[feepa]

Okay, so I did end up sending a message. I hope that this works well enough (I'm not used to sending this type of message)


Hello Mr. Hennig,

I am (snip) useless.

Sincerely,
(Boris550)

-Director of the Calgary Urban Initiative
www.calgaryurban.com

I put my real name in the message of course, not that hiding it here matters. It was also hastily written...

Let me know if you get a response. I don't think he will have much to agree on you. If it were up to these CTF people, taxpayers wouldn't be taxed, and everything would still get built, and the government would some how still be debt free.

[CorporateWhore]

Don't tell people you're a student when you write to people like this, they will disregard you. Tell them you're a taxpayer, the exact person who this twit is supposed to represent.

[Coldrsx]

^haha...students are ataxpayer if anything, oh i miss those days.

[Surrealplaces]

I hope they build this thing. People can be so shortsighted....the cost of building this ten years from now will be more than a 55% increase..

[Coldrsx]

I hope they build this thing. People can be so shortsighted....the value (to the city) of this building ten years from now will be more than a 55% increase..

[ReginaGuy]

Maybe they could spend less money on the hideous exterior.

Why is every new museum designed to look like a scrap-heap of twisted stainless steel and glass?

[Xelebes]

Maybe they could spend less money on the hideous exterior.

Why is every new museum designed to look like a scrap-heap of twisted stainless steel and glass?


I have to agree with you on this one.

[Boris2k7]

Even if the message proves to be useless, I had to give it a try. You guys are a little harsh though... makes me feel like I shouldn't have even bothered, which of course is not productive at all... :\

[m0nkyman]

Mr. Hennig,


You are incorrect in saying that a new overpass is a more pressing need than the art gallery. As a business owner, I chose to locate in Edmonton in part due to it's well known support for the arts. An overpass, however needed it may be does not speak to the character of a city. It's cultural institutions do. A cities infrastructure isn't limited to sewers and roads. It includes it's libraries, it's museums, it's community centres, and yes, it's art galleries.

What also has to be addressed is that the arts are a very important part of the economy of our city. Edmonton's reputation is one of a city that supports the arts, from our festivals, to our many artists and craftspeople. That is part of the draw of this city as opposed to any anonymous suburban place a business could locate in. It is part of what draws the bright young employees that will help our companies expand.

Sincerely,
-m0nkyman-

[HomeInMyShoes]

^Nicely put.

[IKAN104]

Even if the message proves to be useless, I had to give it a try. You guys are a little harsh though... makes me feel like I shouldn't have even bothered, which of course is not productive at all... :\

aw. Boris is not feeling the love. Well, I for one appreciate you writing that letter on behalf a city in which you don't even live. And I'd say it's pretty gutsy to post it on this forum for all these "know-it-alls" to critique too :D (no offence to all you "know-it-alls" out there - you know who you are)

[feepa]

Even if the message proves to be useless, I had to give it a try. You guys are a little harsh though... makes me feel like I shouldn't have even bothered, which of course is not productive at all... :\

Hey, I didnt mean to call you useless, I just thought I would shorten your post in my quote. Didnt even read it before I submitted it.
Thanks for writing it

[Boris2k7]

LOL, okay thanks. I feel better now. :P ;)

[onishenko]

It was a very funny (snip) though....

[Coldrsx]

anyone and i mean anyone who has not visited the gallery in years or ever really should go before it goes the way of the pronger.....it is so 60's cool.

[feepa]

Little birdy told me that the EAG/AGA will be moving into the uofa downtown location so that the deconstruction can start in Mid-March this year. So if your planning on going, go now, or forever hold your peace.

[Coldrsx]

^yup...that is public knowledge now.

[m0nkyman]

Got a response from Scott Hennig:
Hi Thomas,

Thanks for the e-mail.

Often (as was the case with the Edmonton Sun article on February 9th) a lot of what is said during an interview is left out of the final story (otherwise most stories would be much too long to read).

The point I was attempting to make is that the art gallery is likely lower on most peoples priority lists for city spending than many other items. I suggested fire, police, ambulance, and road infrastructure as ones that would likely be higher than the art gallery on most priority lists. When pressed for an example of a road infrastructure project, I said pot holes first, and then followed up with 23rd Ave.

While you make many good points specifically regarding 23rd Ave and the LRT line, my comments were not intended to suggest that 23rd Ave is the end-all-and-be-all of infrastructure needs in Edmonton, just that road infrastructure is a higher priority for most Edmontonians than building an art gallery.

Also, to be clear, the CTF is not necessarily opposed to building physical infrastructure for culture. Whether something as elaborate as the proposed Edmonton Art Gallery is necessary, is something we might debate, however.

But from the conversations we have had with our supporters and with other Edmontonians, we feel that most people felt the city had already spent more than enough on the art gallery and would rather see additional dollars diverted to other priorities (police, fire, ambulance, pot holes, snow clearing, etc).

While not scientific, yesterday’s web poll on edmontonsun.com provided some insight into the priorities of Edmontonians (assuming that Edmontonians voted in this poll). Here are the results:

2007-02-13
Is the city spending too much on the Art Gallery of Alberta?
Yes

80%
No

20%

Total Votes for this Question: 1413

Again, while far from scientific, it does provide some insight.

Anyway, hope that helps clear up my comments for you.

Thanks again for the e-mail.

Twit sent me a form letter, and actually had the balls to use a Sun web poll as support. :rolleyes:

[murman]

anyone and i mean anyone who has not visited the gallery in years or ever really should go before it goes the way of the pronger.....it is so 60's cool.

And what's that lounge in there? The photo you did of that looked uber-retro.

[big W]

Well the city is spending 15 million on it now in addtion to what was commited earlier. Either way this is peanuts compared with the city spending on roads. Perhaps one can show 16 million spent on the art gallery vs 300 million on roads. Then on top of that I think we can ask him what is the first thing that comes to mind when we mention Paris, London, New York, Chicago and see how often mentions the paved streets of these cities vs the public buildings and spaces.

[Coldrsx]

And what's that lounge in there? The photo you did of that looked uber-retro.

"ART-BAR".....and is awesome.....i hope the new one has it street front.

[e909]

I like the idea of the new art gallery. all of this outrage seems to lead me to think that people in edmonton have no pride. Whenever something nice seems to come about, our city seems to find a way to shut it down.

Are roads more important than culture to us?

This almost reminds me of the new Lt. Governor house that sparked a bunch of outrage. I'm sure people would have rather pumped the money into renaming a street after some hockey player and had our royal representative living in a trailer park. Why does it seem that us edmontonians have so little pride in our city?

[Coldrsx]

^it isnt a pride issue, it is a blue collar focus...People see so many things we need done in this city, Art Gallery is not a priority. But if cities dont add things such as this to cities, they become nothing more than a bland, boring, monotone place devoid of anything interesting.

GO ART GALLERY GO

[e909]

^it isnt a pride issue, it is a blue collar focus...People see so many things we need done in this city, Art Gallery is not a priority. But if cities dont add things such as this to cities, they become nothing more than a bland, boring, monotone place devoid of anything interesting.

GO ART GALLERY GO
I don't know why this focus exists. This city is literally a goldmine in the arts/museum/music categories if you look hard enough. I lived here for almost ten years before I started to discover these things. They just don't get the attention that they actually deserve. Of course we need work on the roads, but throwing money on fixing a few pot holes has less of an advantage as compared to something that will last generations.

[Coldrsx]

^we have a large group who appreciates these and uses them, but id say 75% of this city dont give a shiat except when they visit somewhere else and visit a gallery or see a concert and then say "wish edmonton had something on that level, what a shithole of a city i live in".

i digress.

[Xelebes]

A letter-to-the-editor in the Edmonton Sun had me laughing.

"Why are we building a place for rich people to socialise?...."

Eh, how short-sighted these people are.

[Coldrsx]

A letter-to-the-editor in the Edmonton Sun had me laughing.

"Why are we building a place for rich people to socialise?...."

Eh, how short-sighted these people are.

"sun"

nuff said

[onishenko]

yeah, same with the poll as quoted above from their website.

What was the editor's response to that letter? (what other newspaper let's the editor comment on everything offering the tabloids slant on a rant???)

[m0nkyman]

^it isnt a pride issue, it is a blue collar focus...
Bull and Shit. If you canvassed the real blue collar in this town, I'll bet cash money that the majority would support the gallery. It's the motherf***ers like yer average manager for a Money Mart that's the opposition. Low level bureaucrats. :slob:

[SHOFEAR]

Bull and Shit. If you canvassed the real blue collar in this town, I'll bet cash money that the majority would support the gallery. It's the motherf***ers like yer average manager for a Money Mart that's the opposition. Low level bureaucrats. :slob:

I disagree. Theres is a direct correlation between the SUN and catering to blue collar feelings. When's the last time you were in a lunch/office trailer and saw a Globe and Mail, or even a Journal vs seeing a SUN. Now obviously there is a nature vs nurture arguement here, but when somebody directs you toward a SUN poll it is going to be lopsided in favour of the blue collar opinion.

[e909]

I disagree. Theres is a direct correlation between the SUN and catering to blue collar feelings. When's the last time you were in a lunch/office trailer and saw a Globe and Mail, or even a Journal vs seeing a SUN. Now obviously there is a nature vs nurture arguement here, but when somebody directs you toward a SUN poll it is going to be lopsided in favour of the blue collar opinion.
This is true. All the sun emphasizes on is how we need more cops, less taxes, and a small town mentality.

[Xelebes]

yeah, same with the poll as quoted above from their website.

What was the editor's response to that letter? (what other newspaper let's the editor comment on everything offering the tabloids slant on a rant???)

Jenkinson wrote: "An art critic."

[m0nkyman]

I disagree. Theres is a direct correlation between the SUN and catering to blue collar feelings. When's the last time you were in a lunch/office trailer and saw a Globe and Mail, or even a Journal vs seeing a SUN. Now obviously there is a nature vs nurture arguement here, but when somebody directs you toward a SUN poll it is going to be lopsided in favour of the blue collar opinion.

Last time I was on a job site, I saw the Journal. Opened to the sports section. :tup:

[Hardhatdan]

I disagree. Theres is a direct correlation between the SUN and catering to blue collar feelings. When's the last time you were in a lunch/office trailer and saw a Globe and Mail, or even a Journal vs seeing a SUN. Now obviously there is a nature vs nurture arguement here, but when somebody directs you toward a SUN poll it is going to be lopsided in favour of the blue collar opinion.
There is a correlation between the sunshine girl and the blue collar world...that and a better sports section.
You try not to talk politics or real serious topics in the lunch room, because it gets way too heated.

[tkoe]

I was just thinking this morning about the money troubles of the AGA. As an Edmonton institution that has been cultivated by our community, why did we sell ourselves for so little to the Province?

At this point, the city and local donors have funded almost two thirds of the cost of the gallery, and yet we don't even have our name on the front door. It may seem more prestigious to have a provinical title, but now we are in the position of paying for the majority of the work without any recongition and on top of that we have to beg the Province to kick in a few more bucks for something they've already bought.

I wonder if the city donated money for the second phase of the RAM if the Province would let them rename it the REM?

[Coldrsx]

^good thought...

[e909]

We should just get sponsorships.
How does "The West Edmonton Mall Art Gallery of Edmonton Presented by the Brick" sound?

[onishenko]

As funny as that sounds, my Mom suggested the same thing to me. She figured it worked with a wealthy donor like Winspear, why not? even if it means selling out to Epcor or the lot.

I said, in terms of our PROVINCIAL art gallary, there is no way. Could you imagine the next step with national gallaries (the Louvre..) selling out! It's a slippery slope once people start selling out to corporate sponsorship for a couple of bones...

[SHOFEAR]

There is a correlation between the sunshine girl and the blue collar world...that and a better sports section.
You try not to talk politics or real serious topics in the lunch room, because it gets way too heated.

I see what your saying... But I have two problems with it.

How does bringing in the most opinionated paper not encourage heated conversation? And, you can only read the same slanted approach so many times before you start to see things that way. University students on the east side of campus are no different.

My experience in that atmosphere was limited, but that's the way I saw it. That being said, the electricians were always the smarter of the bunch.

[Xelebes]

Electricians are the "white-collars" of the trades. Pipe-fitters are the "dirt-pigs" and welders are the "cripples". :)

Or so my brother tells me.

[Hardhatdan]

From alot of my experiences the chances of having a calm discussion about anything political on a jobsite are about zero. For some reason there will always be one guy that has to get his point across by being the loudest...Its the "I'm louder than you, so you are wrong!" tactic.
The reason the sun is there is because, no one reads the rest of that stupid paper.
Oh and in all seriousness another reason: it folds open like a book, and takes up less space than the journal and in lunch rooms you only get so much space.
Seriously, in unionized lunchrooms sometimes the tables are taped to demark everyones "legislated" space...yea I know its dumb, but when there is 3-4000 guys on site everything has to be regimented or it all goes to shit.

[onishenko]

Electricians are the "white-collars" of the trades. Pipe-fitters are the "dirt-pigs" and welders are the "cripples". :)

Or so my brother tells me.

Drywallers are the dirtiest IMO... they come and go more then any trade. Here until payday, gone the next.

[Xelebes]

Drywallers are the dirtiest IMO... they come and go more then any trade. Here until payday, gone the next.

Drywallers are the "doorknobs" and the painters are something else.

[Boris2k7]

Got my response from Mr. Hennig... gotta say that I was a little surprised by the last part. I hope he was being as humorous as I was in my frustration.

Hi Chris,

Thanks for the e-mail.

Often (as was the case with the Edmonton Sun article on February 9th) a lot of what is said during an interview is left out of the final story (otherwise most stories would be much too long to read).

The point I was attempting to make is that the art gallery is likely lower on most peoples priority lists for city spending than many other items. I suggested fire, police, ambulance, and road infrastructure as ones that would likely be higher than the art gallery on most priority lists. When pressed for an example of a road infrastructure project, I said pot holes first, and then followed up with 23rd Ave.

While you make many good points specifically regarding 23rd Ave and the LRT line, my comments were not intended to suggest that 23rd Ave is the end-all-and-be-all of infrastructure needs in Edmonton, just that road infrastructure is a higher priority for most Edmontonians than building an art gallery.

Also, to be clear, the CTF is not necessarily opposed to building physical infrastructure for culture. Whether something as elaborate as the proposed Edmonton Art Gallery is necessary is something we might debate, however.

But from the conversations we have had with our supporters and with other Edmontonians, we feel that most people felt the city had already spent more than enough on the art gallery and would rather see additional dollars diverted to other priorities (police, fire, ambulance, pot holes, snow clearing, etc).

While not scientific, yesterday’s web poll on edmontonsun.com provided some insight into the priorities of Edmontonians (assuming that Edmontonians voted in this poll). Here are the results:

2007-02-13

Is the city spending too much on the Art Gallery of Alberta?

Yes

80%

No

20%



Total Votes for this Question: 1413


Again, while far from scientific, it does provide some insight.

Anyway, hope that helps clear up my comments for you.

Oh, and I did get a kick out of the mock conversation you posted on the SkyscraperPage Forum.

Feel free to post my response.

Thanks again for the e-mail.

Scott Hennig
Alberta Director
Canadian Taxpayers Federation
202, 10621 - 100 Ave
Edmonton, AB T5J 0B3
780-448-0159
-------------------------------------------------------------------------

It's pretty much a copy-paste of the one already posted, with the exception of that last part (and just to clarify Mr. Hennig, if you are indeed reading this, that I have no malicious intent against you or your organization. I simply disagree). :)

[Coldrsx]

sometimes (with this art gallery thing) it isnt about what is the best way to spend money (fire, popo, etc.), but rather it is about making a city, a space, a form different from the rest...something that makes you stop and think, stop and argue, stop and admire.