[Haliguy]

The Conference Board of Canada has pegged Halifax as the Hub city of Atlantic Canada.


http://thechronicleherald.ca/Business/558804.html

[mmmatt]

The Conference Board of Canada has pegged Halifax as the Hub city of Atlantic Canada.


http://thechronicleherald.ca/Business/558804.html

"I wish I had an explanation but I’m not sure I do" wow!....I wonder if these people have ever been to the maritimes at all...he doesnt even mention New Brunswick, Prince Edward Island, or Newfoundland....only Nova Scotia, the title of this article should be "Halifax is the Hub of Nova Scotia" which everyone already knows, sorry, you will have to show me some solid numbers before I believe this

[mmmatt]

"As for Halifax being the hub for the entire Atlantic region, it's safe to say that Moncton would beg to differ, but Moncton is not big enough yet to be a Census Metropolitan Area. Interesting again, because Moncton truly is a hub for New Brunswick, PEI and western Nova Scotia"

Well this article is old, Moncton IS a CMA now, and we are the hub of the maritimes, all of it but Halifax that is.

Source:http://www.citymayors.com/politics/canada_hubs.html

[mmmatt]

"[Moncton] is an air and rail transportation center and a road hub for the Maritimes"

Source: The Columbia Encyclopedia, Sixth Edition 2006

by the way, no offence to halifax at all, you guys have a lot going for you, and in terms of population and tall buildings and things like that Moncton will never be able to compete with you :)

[ErickMontreal]

"I wish I had an explanation but I’m not sure I do" wow!....I wonder if these people have ever been to the maritimes at all...he doesnt even mention New Brunswick, Prince Edward Island, or Newfoundland....only Nova Scotia, the title of this article should be "Halifax is the Hub of Nova Scotia" which everyone already knows, sorry, you will have to show me some solid numbers before I believe this

Agree, Halifax is the financial, business, Universitiy and retail hub in the maritime

[skyscraper_1]

Lets forget about provincial boundaries. They are antiquated - We are one region and IMO we should be one province. Halifax is the economic hub of the Maritimes, but it doesn't mean smaller centers are out in the dust. They should all be focused on attracting people from the rural areas into the cities. It is an important step forward, cities are the engines are growth - and unfortunately the Maritimes remain 60% rural.

[Haliguy]

Lets forget about provincial boundaries. They are antiquated - We are one region and IMO we should be one province. Halifax is the economic hub of the Maritimes, but it doesn't mean smaller centers are out in the dust. They should all be focused on attracting people from the rural areas into the cities. It is an important step forward, cities are the engines are growth - and unfortunately the Maritimes remain 60% rural.

You are right...and think cities like Moncton are doing good job of that where a lot of people are moving there form Northern NB into the Moncton and may be now Saint John will soon attract poeple from rural areas. It would also be great if Sydney could as well and Charlottetown in some ways already is.

[Architype]

That aticle is almost arbitrary nonsense, how come Saskatchewan has two hubs, and Newfoundland doesn't have a hub at all? :)

[someone123]

Moncton likes to bill itself as a "hub" for the region but that is hype, not reality.

I often hear people go on about Moncton's airport when talking about the city's "hub" status. Moncton's airport handles around 500,000 passengers a year. Halifax's airport handled 3,229,000 in 2006. Halifax is roughly on par with Winnipeg and Ottawa when it comes to airport traffic. Moncton handles about half as many passengers as Kelowna.

Halifax has Canada's third largest port. Moncton does not have a port.

What does being a "road hub" mean exactly? Many people drive through Moncton but many people also drive through Truro or Sackville.

As for migration statistics, you can look them up on Statistics Canada's website. They give community profiles from the 1996-2001 census (http://www12.statcan.ca/english/profil01/CP01/Index.cfm?Lang=E). 38,140 people living in Halifax in 2001 had moved there from out of province during the census period, while only 7,365 people moved to Moncton from out of province. Similarly, there were 24,385 foreign-born people living in Halifax but only 3,360 in Moncton.

The same thing goes for offices and industry, cultural institutions, universities, hospitals, etc. Halifax has far more of all of that.

Sorry, but the Moncton "hub of everything but Halifax" thing just doesn't hold water. The size of a city tends to be highly proportional to the size of its hinterland, and Halifax is much larger than Moncton.

Nobody goes around claiming that Ottawa is the hub of Ontario and Quebec because it's on the border, but that is basically the kind of claim that Moncton boosters try to make.

[Halifax Hillbilly]

Lets forget about provincial boundaries. They are antiquated - We are one region and IMO we should be one province. Halifax is the economic hub of the Maritimes, but it doesn't mean smaller centers are out in the dust. They should all be focused on attracting people from the rural areas into the cities. It is an important step forward, cities are the engines are growth - and unfortunately the Maritimes remain 60% rural.

I think the Maritimes will get a lot less rural but it's up in the air whether people will move to Maritime cities or just continue the long trend of moving West.

There are some out there that think even Halifax will stop growing or be shrinking in the near future. The reasoning goes that rural areas population are declining, and Halifax has traditionally attracted few newcomers from outside Nova Scotia or the Maritimes. Essentially with Alberta growing so quickly many see that trend as continuing. The 2006 census estimates somewhere on this forum show Halifax had a %0.4 growth rate last year, which is hardly healthy.

The other thing that may be hurting population numbers in Halifax is the continued growth in the commuter shed. We've had such strong economic performance of late but where are the people? It looks like maybe they're moving into neighbouring municipalities with cheaper land and fewer development controls. Communities along the 101, 102 and 103 are all growing reasonably quickly.

[Haliguy]

If you look at the popluation growth of the other cma's almost all with the exception of Calgary and Edmonton of course have seen thier growth slow form the 2002 levels.

[kirjtc2]

Moncton's "Hub" nickname is more geographical than economic. They've been calling it that since it was a small town.

I'm sure Saint John has something to say about it being the economic power of New Brunswick, let alone the Maritimes.

[Haliguy]

[QUOTE=kirjtc2;2631222]Moncton's "Hub" nickname is more geographical than economic. They've been calling it that since it was a small town.

QUOTE]


This is ture look at Truro it has been called the Hub of NS since its existence.

[ssiguy]

I have NEVER EVER heard anybody not speak of Halifax as the Maritimes most premier city, its just a given. Its so obvious people wouldn't even debate it.
That said, note that I said Maritimes not Atlantic as I think most see NFLD as different entity.

[mmmatt]

I often hear people go on about Moncton's airport when talking about the city's "hub" status. Moncton's airport handles around 500,000 passengers a year. Halifax's airport handled 3,229,000 in 2006. Halifax is roughly on par with Winnipeg and Ottawa when it comes to airport traffic. Moncton handles about half as many passengers as Kelowna.

"[Monctons airport] saw 558,513 travellers pass through its terminal [in 2006], up 4.3 per cent from 2005, and 2.6 per cent more cargo over the same period"

that number has been growing signifigantly every year btw....and we have to realize the diff in population here, greater moncton is about 130,000 and Halifax is about 500,000 if im not mistaken...so obviously that number is going to be different. Monctons airport handles more passengers than all the other airports in NB combined.

Not saying that Monctons airport is better or anything, just wanted to give the correct number :)

[mmmatt]

Oh yeah and just to put the citys in the context of distrubution hubs


GMIA - 23,685 metric tonnes of cargo (2005)
HIA - 28,000 metric tonnes of cargo (2006)

[Smevo]

Hub is a term usually used as a transportation term, ie- Truro being called the hub of NS because of the rail line through it and because it is where the TCH and HWY102 intersect. To get from anywhere in the province to anywhere past Truro, without taking backroads down there on the province's list of upkeep with neighbourhood sideroads, you have to go through Truro.

Same reason Moncton is called the Hub of NB, since it is the city of intersection for TCH and HWY15 as well as TCH and HWY11 and the intersection for TCH and HWY1 is only a 15 minute drive out of town. To get anywhere in NB from NS, unless you're going to Sackville, you have to go through Moncton.

Nobody's debating Halifax's title of premiere city in the Maritimes, it's just two different versions of what makes a hub being debated. Halifax is still the ruler of it's empire, be happy, not snappy. :P

[Halifax Hillbilly]

that number has been growing signifigantly every year btw....and we have to realize the diff in population here, greater moncton is about 130,000 and Halifax is about 500,000 if im not mistaken...

Halifax is under 400 000 currently. So Halifax is about three times larger than Moncton but handles six times the airport traffic. Traffic in Halifax is growing quickly too.

[Haliguy]

Hub is a term usually used as a transportation term, ie- Truro being called the hub of NS because of the rail line through it and because it is where the TCH and HWY102 intersect. To get from anywhere in the province to anywhere past Truro, without taking backroads down there on the province's list of upkeep with neighbourhood sideroads, you have to go through Truro.

Same reason Moncton is called the Hub of NB, since it is the city of intersection for TCH and HWY15 as well as TCH and HWY11 and the intersection for TCH and HWY1 is only a 15 minute drive out of town. To get anywhere in NB from NS, unless you're going to Sackville, you have to go through Moncton.

Nobody's debating Halifax's title of premiere city in the Maritimes, it's just two different versions of what makes a hub being debated. Halifax is still the ruler of it's empire, be happy, not snappy. :P

No you're right there are two different meanings here. One is talking about geographic location like Moncton or Truro. The other of which the Council Board of Canada is talking about is economic pull sort of speak or what city do people tend to gravitate to in a a region and that in this case it is Halifax. Moncton still is a hub city in a geographical context and will continue to benefit from its location.

[someone123]

Oh yeah and just to put the citys in the context of distrubution hubs


GMIA - 23,685 metric tonnes of cargo (2005)
HIA - 28,000 metric tonnes of cargo (2006)

This is just air cargo, which is a tiny portion of overall shipments. The Port of Halifax handles 13-14 million metric tonnes of cargo a year.

[SHOFEAR]

This is a perfect example of the importance sport plays when it comes to name recognition. Halifax with its previous WJHC and constant CFL rumors comes across as the undisputed hub. At least when viewd from out here.

[mmmatt]

This is just air cargo, which is a tiny portion of overall shipments. The Port of Halifax handles 13-14 million metric tonnes of cargo a year.

Wow, are you serious? that means that NB handles more cargo than NS because SJs port handles about 25 million tonnes a year lol...oh yeah and I found the 2006 number for cargo at the GIMA = 24,000 tonnes

[Haliguy]

Wow, are you serious? that means that NB handles more cargo than NS because SJs port handles about 25 million tonnes a year lol...oh yeah and I found the 2006 number for cargo at the GIMA = 24,000 tonnes

Here's an article on the Port of Halifax Tonnage in thsi morinings paper.

Also the tonnage number doesn't include container traffic which is Halifax main business. It handles over 500,000 containers a year making it the third largest port in the country after Vancouver and Montreal.

http://thechronicleherald.ca/Business/559171.html

[someone123]

Wow, are you serious? that means that NB handles more cargo than NS because SJs port handles about 25 million tonnes a year lol...oh yeah and I found the 2006 number for cargo at the GIMA = 24,000 tonnes

In Saint John's case the vast majority of goods are shipped in bulk. Petroleum would make up a large chunk of their traffic, for example, and it is worth relatively little per tonne.

Either way, Saint John isn't Moncton.

[mmmatt]

In Saint John's case the vast majority of goods are shipped in bulk. Petroleum would make up a large chunk of their traffic, for example, and it is worth relatively little per tonne.

Either way, Saint John isn't Moncton.

I know SJ isnt moncton, I was just suprised at how little it appeared Halifax handled in comparisen to SJ, it was a completeley dif off-topic revelation I guess :)

[skyscraper_1]

Seriously guys - Who cares which province ships more, this provincial/city dick waving has got to end if we are to move forward.

[mmmatt]

Seriously guys - Who cares which province ships more, this provincial/city dick waving has got to end if we are to move forward.

True. Ill admit, Halifax is the obviously economic hub of the maritimes, with 3 times the population etc. but moncton is historically the distribution hub, because of its central location / now 1.4 million ppl in a 2 1/2 hour drive... thats all i wanted to say

[Smevo]

Seriously guys - Who cares which province ships more, this provincial/city dick waving has got to end if we are to move forward.

I agree with you 100%. We should try to make every city in the area as productive and prosperous as it can be rather than everyone saying "my city is better than yours because of this" followed by the response "yeah, well my city is better because of this". It really ruins what could be productive threads when people (on both sides) over-react and get overly defensive. We're maritimers for cryin' out loud. I think what we need is a good old fashion kitchen party. :D :cheers:

[Haliguy]

I agree with you 100%. We should try to make every city in the area as productive and prosperous as it can be rather than everyone saying "my city is better than yours because of this" followed by the response "yeah, well my city is better because of this". It really ruins what could be productive threads when people (on both sides) over-react and get overly defensive. We're maritimers for cryin' out loud. I think what we need is a good old fashion kitchen party. :D :cheers:


I started this thread to discuss the Cofernece Board of Canada's identfing the Hub cities across the country. It was in the news a lot this week because they were in town discussing how hub cities should be getting more funding. It wasn't meant to compare cities against each other.

[Wishblade]

I started this thread to discuss the Cofernece Board of Canada's identfing the Hub cities across the country. It was in the news a lot this week because they were in town discussing how hub cities should be getting more funding. It wasn't meant to compare cities against each other.

Unfortunately as soon as I saw the title of this thread of the first time, I knew exactly how it would turn out. And the sad part was it wasnt even in your own unsupported opinion, it was article based.

[DuffMan]

I don't give the Conference Board of Canada much credit if they can put TWO relatively small cities in Saskatchewan as "hub cities". That sounds pretty ridiculous to me. Also, St. John's, Nfld should have been listed as a hub city - since it is most definitely the hub of that province. As for New Brunswick, the power in that province is really split three ways - Fredericton, Saint John and Moncton, so neither can really be identified as the "hub" of that province.

I think it is fair to say that Halifax is the "hub" city for the Maritimes, but not for Atlantic Canada (which woudl include Nfld). That's not putting Moncton down, because they are clearly an aggressive city that is on the upswing. It is definitely one of the major influencial cities in the region and I would rank as #2 in the Maritimes for overal economic importance and influence.

[Smevo]

I started this thread to discuss the Cofernece Board of Canada's identfing the Hub cities across the country. It was in the news a lot this week because they were in town discussing how hub cities should be getting more funding. It wasn't meant to compare cities against each other.

Unfortunately as soon as I saw the title of this thread of the first time, I knew exactly how it would turn out. And the sad part was it wasnt even in your own unsupported opinion, it was article based.

^same here. And unfortunately the "battles" usually start with a misunderstanding, in this case, being what kind of hub we're talking about. What doomed this thread was an initial reaction based on the traditional transportation hubs and Halifax not usually being known as that type of hub city, than an equally unfortunate reaction on the other side. It was that confusion I tried to clarify in my first reply in this thread, though I admit that my final line may have been misinterpreted as a shot against Halifax forumers (though it hasn't been replied to that way, thankfully). If it was misinterpreted that way, I apologize.

And no offense to ssiguy here, but I'm going to use your post as an example of something that could easily be misinterpreted.
I have NEVER EVER heard anybody not speak of Halifax as the Maritimes most premier city, its just a given. Its so obvious people wouldn't even debate it.

To a non-Haligonian (like myself), this can come off as egotistical, and depending on the context or forumer reading it, could be misinterpreted so far as to think you're saying Halifax is the only city worth a damn in the area, which being a multi-year forumer and multi-year lurker before that, I personally know you're not saying but the same can't necessarily be said for other forumers. On the other side, some things Matt (stu_pendousmat2) said could be seen in a defensive mode to be saying that Moncton should be looked at as on par with Halifax. Now, not knowing any forumers personally, I would never accuse anyone of actually making those posts and actually meaning what I've put as misinterpretations. I like to give people the benefit of the doubt. God knows I've disagreed with some of the things someone123 has said in the past and the way he's posted them, but I try my best not to get overly defensive because I've also seen very constructive and well thought out posts on every topic from him, and actually agree with him on most occasions.

I don't know how much time different forumers take before they react, but I would suggest as a guilty party myself for the health of the forum and to avoid this place turning into ssc-type wars, I would like to put forward a suggestion (while trying not to sound preachy) to take a little extra time and read the post over another time or two and realize who it's coming from before posting hasty reactionary posts. Also, if someone is being an idiot by posting an outlandish reply, don't reply back, it takes two to battle and the poster that made the outlandish comment will simply look like the douchebag they were being (that's probably the biggest problem on these forums that starts wars).

Anyway, sorry about the length of this post, but this is a great place to keep up on information for most of the maritimes now that we have most of the cities represented on here, and I don't want to see it go downhill. Like I said, I've also been guilty on occasion. So please, let's try to get this back on topic, and I'll avoid putting in a foolish finishing line to try and lighten the mood. All of the people involved in this discussion so far are good contributors to the forum and I'd hate to see any one of them leave because everything's turning into city vs city...those threads are the bane of these forums.

So, in closing, though Moncton seems to be emerging as the economic hub of New Brunswick, and though Moncton and Truro are traditionally known as the transporation hubs of their respective provinces, as it stands now, Halifax is the economic and cargo hub of the Maritimes. Also, just because this thread is "Halifax is the Hub of Atlantic Canada", that doesn't mean the poster believes the other cities of AC are somehow expendable, and most likely realizes the importance each city and town brings to the area. Also, this was not a post of personal opinion, it was an article. If you disagree, attack the article like Architype did, not the poster.

Anyway, I'm done being preachy now. Call it lack of sleep. And sorry to single certain forumers out, I promise there was no ill-intent. Everyone I mentioned I look forward to their contributions on many subjects.

[Downtown Bolivar]

...and Buffalo is the hub of western New York...big deal. Both places have a long way to go before they really become serious players in North America.

[SSLL]

As an outsider, I would've assumed Halifax as the hub naturally. I didn't realize Moncton was such a hub.

[lawsond]

What does being a "road hub" mean exactly?

further to my recent rant about moncton becoming the new halifax:
a road hub would be the place where companies dependent on truck traffic decide to place regional headquarters.
walmart comes to mind.
there are many many others.
moncton is indeed a logical place for regional headquarters who depend largely on truck freight.
and with the service sector growing in importance, a road hub is becoming far more central than a port.
the new four-lane from moncton to SJ and Freddy and the Confederation Bridge make Moncton a natural to take top spot for service sector headquarters.
new brunswick is working diligently to place moncton at the centre of the maritimes...piece by piece, highway by highway.
haligonians take note.
no resting on your laurels!
btw: i have nothing invested in moncton.
i lived in halifax for 15 years, grew up nearby and am a proud nova sctoian.
i just see tehg writing on the wall if nothing is done to stop halifax's persistent knee jerk conservatism in all areas.

[Architype]

According to the formulas they used to decide this, Halifax is easily the hub of Nova Scotia, but being the hub of the whole region is dubious because Halifax's share of the regional GDP is too low to meet their own criteria.

[someone123]

The share of the overall GDP doesn't mean much. You could create all kinds of artificial "hub cities" using that approach. There are also some undeniable regional and national centres that don't have a very big share of the overall GDP. Toronto's share of the national GDP is not that large, for example, but it's where most head offices are located and it has become Canada's global city.

The idea behind the hub city argument is that those places will create spillover effects into their respective regions, not that they have some kind of monopoly on regional economic activity.

[Architype]

^But if you read through the logic and formulas they used, then share of provincial GDP was a criterion. Also, Fredericton was not combined with Moncton (or Saint John) because Fredericton is not a CMA; neither is Charlottetown. In Saskatchewan, Regina & Saskatoon (both CMA's) had to be combined in order to make up about 40% of the provincial GDP. In Nfld, St.John's only accounted for about 35% (not sure of the exact figures now) according to the feds, although the province claims it is more, the dispute is concerning offshore oil workers. For Halifax to be a regional hub, they must use different criteria, making it not the same thing as the others. Although the reasons for excluding N.B & PEI were made clear, this was not really the case for Nfld. In short, it seems the formulas and theories were tailored in order to produce the specific results they wanted.

[someone123]

That is true, although at the end of the day Halifax is the largest and most complex city in the region by a fairly wide margin and that is what is most important.

Newfoundland's status is never clear. It exists somewhat apart from the Maritimes and the region of "Atlantic Canada" is a little contrived. Personally if I were making the regions I would consider Newfoundland separate.

[Architype]

It's not just a case of who's city is better etc., the purpose of the hub city concept is to provide extra money, which may be based on a somewhat dubious theory, while penalizing others which should have the same or nearly the same status. Politics should not be involved here, but it seems Ottawa does not especially like either the Nfld premier or the mayor of St.John's.

[someone123]

I don't think it's a dubious theory. The regional centres are where investment produces the greatest dividends and they are the markets that are most easily taken advantage of in their respective regions.

The other issue is that we're not currently in a situation where money is distributed evenly based on population or need. Right now funding is biased heavily towards smaller towns and rural areas. Highways out in the middle of nowhere that hardly get any traffic are being twinned and schools are being kept open to serve dwindling student populations.

Propping up declining rural areas has become a kind of obsession in Canada, but in the end it does not change the root causes of these trends. We have spent a lot of money without much to show for it.

[Smevo]

I can't speak for other highways, but as someone who travels the HWY104/HWY4 north of New Glasgow a lot, I can tell you twinning is long overdue. Even in average traffic conditions it can be a tricky highway to drive, with or without large trucks. Also, the HWY105 in Cape Breton has some of the trickiest turns in the country and carries a heavy amount of truck traffic. The plan to twin up to the Newfoundland ferry terminal in North Sydney is necessary. Also, the entire HWY125 (aka Sydney Bypass) twinning is necessary. As it stands, there are several busy stretches that are still two lane without even passing lanes on either side. In New Brunswick, HWY 7 between Fredericton and Saint John is long overdue for twinning and re-alignment (much like 104 in NS). There's not even the opposition for HWY 7 re-alignment as there is on the 104 around Antigonish. Like I said though, I can't speak for other highways, since the rest of the ones I usually drive are already twinned.

I agree with you that the Newfoundland situation is tricky. It's really a separate entity and the whole "Atlantic Canada" stamp seems more for convenience than anything else. On the other hand, the Maritimes truly do have a lot in common and are a tight geographic entity. Halifax is definitely the dominant city in the Maritimes, with St. John's being the dominant city in Newfoundland. It's not really fair to St. John's to lump it in with "Atlantic Canada" because of the fact Newfoundland really operates independently from the Maritimes.

[someone123]

Twinning is sort of a safety issue but there are so many kilometres for so few people, and in reality it's sort of questionable that they would be able to support that kind of highway on their own. At what point do you draw the line?

To some degree I think Maritimers have a warped idea of what is "isolated" and too much of a sense of entitlement. People in Canso wanted Northern benefits but most of them probably have no idea what the real isolation in other parts of the country is like. Hint: it's much more than living a 45 minute drive down from the highway and a couple hours from the city.

Nowhere in the Maritimes is that isolated as far as Canada goes. How far from Sydney can you get in Cape Breton? The most you can get from a major road in Nova Scotia is maybe a few hours' walk. Another interesting fact is that only approximately 1% of the province is "wildnerness" in the sense that it has never been settled, farmed, logged, or mined.

Again, Newfoundland and Labrador are a bit different.

[Smevo]

That's true on all counts. I think the farthest from Sydney you could get would be a tiny village called Meat Cove up a road off the northern section of the Cabot Trail. Not sure how long it takes to travel up that particular road, but it's about a 3 hour drive from the furthest part on the Cabot Trail to Sydney. People see what surrounds them, and that's what gives people the skewed sense of isolated in these parts.

One thing that's not always realised when highway twinning comes up for the sections north of New Glasgow is that traffic through there isn't only connecting areas on Cape Breton with the rest of Nova Scotia, but also connecting Newfoundland to the rest of the country. The traffic heading to Newfoundland is mostly truck traffic, because I'm sure anybody that knows distances on Newfoundland would agree you'd have to be insane or really love driving to use the highway system to visit places on mainland Canada.

[Architype]

Propping up declining rural areas has become a kind of obsession in Canada, but in the end it does not change the root causes of these trends. We have spent a lot of money without much to show for it.

On the other hand, I'm sure you will agree that some people are not meant to live in cities. I see many people who really should be living in rural areas :)

[Smevo]

^Again, very true. Unfotunately, a lot of our cities' growth comes from rural areas. As much as we like to think rural areas are insignificant, they do provide the agricultural necessities that allow us urbanites to live. Anyway, it is sad to see rural areas declining, but in today's economy, rural areas are less significant (though I'm not saying they're not important) than they were in the past. All the same, there will always be a need for rural areas and the micro-economies that come with them.

In my belief, we are blessed in the Maritimes to have several urban areas which are in a position to thrive given the right circumstances. With the upcoming upswings in Saint John and the greater Sydney Area, in addition to the Moncton, Fredericton, Charlottetown, and Halifax current situation, the Maritimes are in a very good postition to start advancing again and becoming more important on the national scale, especially if the Atlantic Gateway proposal goes through.

Anyway, that's my two cents. :cool:

[someone123]

Rural areas do provide many necessities, but their total output is growing, not shrinking. The reason why rural populations are falling is that more and more of that kind of work can be done with fewer people and more of it is being done in other countries.

Whether or not somebody moves to the city should be a personal decision based on the benefits/drawbacks of both urban and rural life (and there are many urban problems, but a disproportionate amount of money goes to solving rural issues).