[Chicago103]

I think in 100 years plus if this planet as we know it still exists should have 100% pedestrianized streets and hovercars as the only form of personal transportation. When you think about it its the only way to have a truly utopian society, one where people must interact with others in a pedestrian environment and where the most basic form of human travel, by foot, is the most dominant and other forms of transit must be completly separate and not interfering with the natural flow of human movement.

Imagine those of you that live in major cities and if you dont picture a major city and imagine if every street was pedestrianized, wide streets for the public to just walk down but the buildings would just stay where they are. In the medians of these former streets would be trees and planters with benches for people to sit down. I got this idea from watching an episode of Star Trek: Voyager where they gave a rare glimpse of pedestrian life on earth in the future.

Here is what I mean, a San Francisco street in the 24th Century:
http://images.wikia.com/memoryalpha/en/images/1/1d/San_Francisco_streets.jpg

[James Bond Agent 007]

I think it's more likely they'll invent easy-to-use and inexpensive jetpacks so we don't have to walk on the ground at all. :)

Or, speaking of Star Trek, they'll invent transporter machines so that we won't have to walk anywhere. :D

The history of cities is one of them being increasingly dominated by technology, not less. As much as I like pedestrian cities, I see no reason why that would discontinue.

[BTinSF]

Here is what I mean, a San Francisco street in the 24th Century:
http://images.wikia.com/memoryalpha/en/images/1/1d/San_Francisco_streets.jpg

Whoa, dude. Nowhere in my town that I know of would you find that much masonry construction of single family houses and townhomes. Here in earthquake country, brick is used for paving (so the brick street is OK) and some pre-1906 commercial structures, but not homes like those shown. I'm thinking that's actually 24th century Baltimore or Philadelphia.

[BTinSF]

A place that's been 100% pedestrianized for centuries (because you can't get there by road--only by cog railway):

Wengen, Switzerland
http://www.wengen.com/wallpaper/esma2b.jpg

http://www.wengen-muerren.ch/typo3temp/pics/9f601ccfb0.jpg

http://www.wengen-muerren.ch/uploads/pics/100wengen-A6_01.jpg

http://www.wengen.com/wallpaper/sofog1g.jpg

[LMich]

I get very wary of anything seeking to create a 'utopian' society. That sets off alarms for me, and is an instant recipe for disaster. A little off topic, but that word really scares me because it's groupthink at its worst. Let's simply worry about being the best we can be since every persons idea of utopia is different.

[JMancuso]

cars are here to stay whether they be combustion engined based; hydrogen, flying or hovercraft.

[Scraperman]

I don't think there'll be flying/hover cars for a very, very long time. Imagine the safety issues of thousands of them all hovering at fast speeds all around the sky. It would be a bit crazy.

Plus, even if we did have flying cars, you'd still need parking spaces for them.

[pdxtex]

the flying car. where did i put that popular mechanic's?!

funny link about the "flying car"......

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eBRHetKH4MQ

[Buckeye Native 001]

I get very wary of anything seeking to create a 'utopian' society. That sets off alarms for me, and is an instant recipe for disaster. A little off topic, but that word really scares me because it's groupthink at its worst. Let's simply worry about being the best we can be since every persons idea of utopia is different.

One man's utopia is another's shithole.

[SHiRO]

Whoa, dude. Nowhere in my town that I know of would you find that much masonry construction of single family houses and townhomes. Here in earthquake country, brick is used for paving (so the brick street is OK) and some pre-1906 commercial structures, but not homes like those shown. I'm thinking that's actually 24th century Baltimore or Philadelphia.
Nah, I know that episode. It's supposed to represent San Fransisco.

[fflint]

^Episode of what? The most cursory glance at San Francisco will reveal our 150-year hate affair with deadly masonry structures.

As for utopia--LMich's instincts are spot-on. I do *not* believe in such a thing.

[glowrock]

Yup... I can't even begin to comprehend a San Francisco with lots of masonry structures! :eek: Something about a few earthquakes every now and again tends to eliminate that option from reality, I'd say!

And no, utopia doesn't exist. Besides, in a fully pedestrianized city, how are goods and services (ie: large, heavy, bulky, etc...) going to be delivered?

Aaron (Glowrock)

[Trantor]

Cars exist only in the last 100 years... I dont remember any utopian society before that...

[Saddle Man]

In the Star Trek future, there'll be earthquake suppression and transporter beams for all shipments. :0

[Muji]

Pedestrian-friendliness should be what all urban design strives for, but ultimately we still need automobiles and railroads to function economically. How else would we get goods and services from one place to another?

[wong21fr]

^On the backs of the lesser classes crawling through the subterrainean tunnels that are directly below the wide pedestrian paths.

Look at those few people walking in that picture, is that representative of a dense-utopian society? Hell no! The masses are in tunnels underground laboring to ensure the elites enjoy a utopian existence.

Down with the walkers!

[Chicago103]

cars are here to stay whether they be combustion engined based; hydrogen, flying or hovercraft.

There are hover/flying cars in Star Trek and I am basing this under the assumption that personal forms of transportation would still exist to a degree. However there are strong implications that its influence over life had greatly diminished in Star Trek, the skies are never shown to be filled with flying vehicles, they arent called automobiles anymore, in fact in one episode someone mentioned seeing an automobile on the holodeck and someone asked "a what?" and someone had to explain.

Also in the same episode with the picture they also showed the entrance to a subway that had a futuristic whooshing sound, so public transit is common. Then of course there is always beaming to get around. In terms of your observations that there are way to many masonry structures to be SF is interesting in that I am not that familiar with the city, I do believe that it was supposed to be in the Mission District. Someone also pointed out that there arent that many pedestrians in the picture, well I believe it was implied that it was a mostly residential street (but there was a cafe) and it was the middle of the day.

Its pure speculation as to what the primary means of day to day transportation is for the average person on earth in Star Trek (its a show about exploring space not urban planning after all) but I imagine its a combination of walking, public transit and beaming, hovercars are rarely seen or mentioned and I dont recall anyone worrying about parking. Goods and services are probably beamed and or transported in flying vehichles and grade separated mag-lev trains. Honestly I think a society that is pedestrianized and has mass transit so efficient that personal transportation vehicles are down to a minimum (probably not even demanded) is the most efficient way to run a city of the future. The post-monetary economics of star trek where energy and materials are almost infinite would ensure that infrastructure for transit would just be built without lengthy deliberation regarding parking, NIMBY's, or budgetary concerns.

[Minato Ku]

La Defense esplanade was made like this utopia in 70's
but it is not really 100% pedestrianized area because a motorway is under the esplanade :)

[Juicedog1313]

One man's utopia is another's shithole.

Some people think that suburbia is as close as you can get to a utopia, and that inner cities are hellish.

I hold the opposite view.
I love the city, but wouldn't want to force in onto anybody.

[JMancuso]

the premise in the star trek universe is that the federation (at least on earth)...has become communist in the purest sense of the word. communism is meant to be a utopia for all but can end up being a "brave new world" for some.

lmich's argument is spot on.

[Chicago103]

I know that Star Trek urban planning that I laid out would be hell to Wendell Cox and Robert Brugheman and to many others it would be intimidating but that is only because people today arent used to living that way, its a foreign concept.

I dont think that Earth is so much communist in Star Trek but rather technology has progressed to the point where traditional economics is obsolete. Our economy is based on scarce energy and material resources and thus the cost is high as is the demand but in a society where energy and materials are almost infinite the supply always keeps up with the demand it would be different. Economics is about supply and demand, if supply can almost always keep up with and/or exceed demand then the whole way that we live would change. It wouldnt that people would be less greedy as if they are brainwashed but rather the motivation for greed wouldnt be there because there wouldnt be scarce housing, food, energy, etc to fight over anymore.

So the whole capitalist/socialist/communist economic debate we have here in the year 2007 is based on arguing over how to best distribute the scarce resources we have today but such a debate is meaningless when there is plenty of nearly everything to go around.

[SHiRO]

^Episode of what? The most cursory glance at San Francisco will reveal our 150-year hate affair with deadly masonry structures.
It's an apisode of Star Trek Voyager and it takes place 250 years into the future, so who knows what will be build by then...;)

[SHiRO]

^Episode of what? The most cursory glance at San Francisco will reveal our 150-year hate affair with deadly masonry structures.
It's an episode of Star Trek Voyager and it takes place 250 years into the future, so who knows what will be build by then...;)

[LMich]

Some people think that suburbia is as close as you can get to a utopia, and that inner cities are hellish.

I hold the opposite view.
I love the city, but wouldn't want to force in onto anybody.

I couldn't have said it better myself.

[bpg88]

I wrote my master's research paper on car-free cities. Check out J.H. Crawford's book by the same name.

Urban areas built before the existance of the automobile should be pedestrianized, IMO. The car does way more harm than good in these areas, and with a decent transit system, isn't really necessary. But even something along the lines of Freiburg, Germany (60% of all trips non-motorized, with lagre pedestrianized areas), is pretty close to ideal. Also look at the eco-suburb of Shanghai, Dongtan, being built with only a handful of roads for a city of 500,000.

Most of the world has a large percentage of their urban population without an automobile. Even in the United States most cities have 20% or more households without cars. No reason for them to suffer the negative effects of the auto. Car-free housing is an up and coming market in Europe and chances are this becomes more popular across the globe. No matter what your opinion, it's just not possible to put everyone in the driver's seat.

[zilfondel]

You forgot Zermatt (http://www.zermatt.ch/index.e.html), Switzerland.

http://photo.zermatt.ch/images/prev/6103.jpg

http://www.geog.utah.edu/~hmiller/photos/zermatt.JPG

http://www.laufladen.de/zermatt06/zermatt%201.jpg

[JiminyCricket II]

whistler, but even then you drive to your hotel or condo/cabin, but i'm guessing that's the closest thing in north america.

[Upward]

Car-free housing is an up and coming market in Europe and chances are this becomes more popular across the globe. No matter what your opinion, it's just not possible to put everyone in the driver's seat.

Right, not everyone can have a car. But that doesn't mean it's possible for no one to have a car. Motorized vehicles will always need to exist.

Before cars, there were horse-drawn carriages (remember that the car was originally thought of as the "horseless carriage). While they were nowhere near as prevalent as cars became, they served functions that cannot be served by rail transportation systems. Sometimes something/someone needs to go directly from point A to point B. Even if private ownership of cars in urban areas dwindles to almost zero (which could be good), they're not going away entirely.

[Ex-Ithacan]

That does it, I'm moving to the mountains. Gonna become a mountain man. Oh wait....this isn't gonna happen for 100 years? Don't think I'm gonna last that long. Never mind.

[brickell]

Just a minor point of contention, but wouldn't 100% pedestrianized mean no transit at all. If we allow transit, where do you draw the line? Are jitney's allowed? What about powered rickshaws? These are important questions in the shaping of utopian society.

Actually they aren't. You're utopia may require a complete lack of automobiles, but I'd guess most peoples idea of utopia is peace, love and happiness. The fact that you somehow equate cars with that is a little disturbing.

[AZheat]

I think the basic concept is a pretty good idea. The only problem is that because of the limitations of walking we're really talking about fairly small towns and not actual cities. Then of course when you introduce all of the practical everyday needs of society like picking up the garbage, delivering heavy packages, responding to emergency situations, etc. it becomes obvious that some form of mechanized travel is needed as well. However, public spaces built around pedestrians are very practical and appealing. You would just have to work out all of the practical details that would include the necessary motorized vehicles and how they could function in this all pedestrian environment. It's definitely an idea worthy of consideration.

[muppet]

Heres some pics of Antananarivo in Madagascar (pop. 1,250,000) - dirt poor but beautiful, chaotic but eminently liveable:

http://images.wildmadagascar.org/pictures/tana/antananarivo_0.JPG

http://s.tf1.fr/mmdia/i/64/6/2204646.jpg

I love this pic below - imagine knowing your neighbours around you, how inviting is this scene...
http://www.lostworldarts.com/images/img2905.jpg http://static.flickr.com/5/6849083_f0fc19ef44.jpg

http://k47.pbase.com/v3/33/344733/1/44830043._DSC0079.jpg http://users.raketnet.nl/f.vd.meerendonk/Madagascar/Photos/Antananarivo-city.jpg

http://peace.sandiego.edu/images/reports/Hery-me-Mamy.jpg

[muppet]

Sana'a in Yemen

http://www.jorgetutor.com/yemen/sanaa1/sanaa6.jpg http://www.jorgetutor.com/yemen/sanaa1/sanaa1.jpg
http://www.jorgetutor.com/yemen/sanaa1/sanaa11.jpghttp://www.jorgetutor.com/yemen/sanaa1/sanaa13.jpg

http://www.jorgetutor.com/yemen/sanaa1/sanaa8.jpg
http://www.markos.it/yemen/slides/yemen0051.JPG

http://www.ict-edu.nl/site_images/content_images/icte_images/Sana'a_city_001.jpg

700-1200 year old buildings as far as you can see
http://members.aol.com/yalnet/sanaaa1.jpg

http://www.shebatourism.com/images/Sana_aL.jpg

http://www.al-bab.com/yet/pictures/pix/37.jpg
cars park here, outside the old walls of the UNESCO protected Wolrd Heritage Site

http://img2.travelblog.org/Photos/12569/55803/f/319043-Sana-a-0.jpg
roads are banked off

http://www.bgr.bund.de/DE/Themen/TZ/Bilder/LaenderRegionen__Jemen__g,property=default.jpg

http://www.jorgetutor.com/yemen/wadidhahr/wadidhahr1.jpg

http://www.jorgetutor.com/yemen/sanaa1/sanaa21.jpg http://www.jorgetutor.com/yemen/sanaa1/sanaa5.jpg

http://www.jorgetutor.com/yemen/sanaa1/sanaa25.jpg

[muppet]

Highrise medieval Shibam, Yemen - the streetlife here is phenomenal (but cant find pics!)

http://www.eng.morgan.edu/~eshaq/shibam.gif

http://blogs.ideal.es/media/shibam.jpg

http://www.prm.ox.ac.uk/ThesigerWeb/images/Arabia/2004.130.17157.3.jpg

http://www.elleworld.it/admin/struttura/shibam.jpg

http://images.world66.com/sh/ib/am/shibam_one_of_the_galleryfull

[muppet]

Ghardaia, Algeria

http://www.u-blog.net/versac/img/gardhaia.jpg

http://p.vtourist.com/2830152-The_MZab-Wilaya_de_Ghardaia.jpg

http://membres.lycos.fr/ciajgh/images/ghardaia.jpg

http://www.geocities.com/mzabgeo/ghardaia.gif http://www.saiyu.co.jp/image/algeria/ghardaia/ghardaia_market1.jpg

http://www.imagesofanthropology.com/images/a.Oasis_of_Ghardaia_Algeria_image_2.jpg

[muppet]

the Blue City, Jodhpur (population 700,000), India

http://lava.nationalgeographic.com/pod/pictures/sm_wallpaper/NGM1997_05p46-7.jpg

http://www.canadianarchitect.com/asf/principles_of_enclosure/enclosure_defined/images/jodhpur.jpg http://www.valben.com/sixmois/images/inde/jodhpur/vue_jodhpur_01.jpg

http://guillop.free.fr/Photos/Inde%202001/jodhpur/La%20ville%20bleue.jpg

http://www.eftegarie.nl/photos/india/jodhpur%20blue%20facade%202.jpg

[muppet]

Lijiang, China (population 1 million), aka 'the Venice of the East' due to its extensive canals. In 1996 a devastating earthquake destroyed 1/3 of the city (luckily mostly the new town), to which the authrorities rebuilt in Ming dynasty style.

http://www.lawrence.edu/dept/ealc/sungphotos/Images%20of%20China/Old%20Town%20Lijiang.jpg

http://www.yunnangood.com/newsImg/60.jpg http://portal.unesco.org/ci/en/files/18444/11117478131Lijiang__Ancient_Town-4.jpg/Lijiang++Ancient+Town-4.jpg

http://www.raphaelk.co.uk/web%20pics/China/first/Lijiang%20street.jpg

http://www.sino-cs.ac.uk/html/Heritage/img/lj/big/lj-01.jpg

http://www.sino-cs.ac.uk/html/Heritage/img/lj/big/lj-21.jpg

http://www.sino-cs.ac.uk/html/Heritage/img/lj/big/lj-29.jpg

http://www.pacificvillage.org/villagevoices/own06/archives/Lijiang%20Street%20with%20tourist%20crowd300.JPG http://www.chr.mergler.bnv-bamberg.de/china-reise/bilder/Lijiang-2.jpg

clearer view of the building structure
http://www.sino-cs.ac.uk/html/Heritage/img/lj/big/lj-35.jpg

[muppet]

ok im tired :), someone post Venice and Siena for more Europe...

[bpg88]

Right, not everyone can have a car. But that doesn't mean it's possible for no one to have a car. Motorized vehicles will always need to exist.

Before cars, there were horse-drawn carriages (remember that the car was originally thought of as the "horseless carriage). While they were nowhere near as prevalent as cars became, they served functions that cannot be served by rail transportation systems. Sometimes something/someone needs to go directly from point A to point B. Even if private ownership of cars in urban areas dwindles to almost zero (which could be good), they're not going away entirely.

While I agree it is unlikely, and undesirable in some circumstances, it is not impossible. It would always be rather convenient to have trucks for deliveries, to clear snow, etc. The term car-free can mean a lot of things and doesn't always mean zero cars. I'm just saying it is an unrealistic goal for everyone to have a car and they have an incredibly negative impact on areas that were not designed specifically for them. For years we have tried to accomodate the car in urban areas and it has done nothing but take the life out of them. It's time to start moving in other directions. I don't think the current "multi-modal" solutions go far enough.

[Ex-Ithacan]

Another example of a Ped city, Kowloon


http://www.tofu-magazine.net/newVersion/images/KWC1.jpg


While those cities posted above look cool, they might have some drawbacks as well. I would imagine emergency responders are hampered quite a bit by the narrow sidewalks-only access routes. Might be tough going if you accidently cut off a couple of fingers and had to get to the hospital in a hurry. :(

[muppet]

what we're getting at is not a lack of transport but an alternate means of it - in other words, the public variety, by road if that so means, but also far more efficient.

One can justify the selfsame danger in using an emergency route that will be blocked by thousands of cars in gridlock.

[Ex-Ithacan]

Just a little dig at the thought of a real Utopia (at least by Pedestrian standards) ever actually existing. We (most of the developed world) have become too dependant on the motor vehicle. It would be a very painful transition to foot power only. Unless something equally as singularly freeing as cars is invented, with the ability to travel greater distances than that by foot or even bike, I don't see Utopia happening.

[Nouvellecosse]

If we were to have a truly large metropolis that was car free, it would surely have a breathtakingly expansive metro network as dense - if not denser - as the Paris metro, linking the entire urban area. The city would consist of numerous regional "hubs" or central areas that had the most transit (including connections), shopping, entertainment, services, medical facilities, etc. Each hub would likely be within walking or biking distance of the average able-bodied person. Non able-bodied persons could use motorised carts much like those in use today.

But another thing that one has to remember, is that a great deal of our current need for transportation is rooted in the fact that most of us work in a seperate location from where we live, with some of us even commuting across town or to a different city. In the future, it's likely that this practice would be either rare or non-existent. Not only would more people work at home (due to advances in communications technology), but more people would work in regional areas much closer to their homes.

And it's also possible that work itself could become less important. As things become more and more mechanised, we could get to the point in which people merely "manage" the economy rather than run it. They could keep an eye on things just in case of malfunctions, monitor efficiency, adjust output, etc. without having to devote most of their time to it.

As far as the movement of goods, a lot of cargo would be delivered by air, but if that technology hadn't become refined enough by then, it could also be moved to the reginal hubs using the rail tunnels (that the metro trains use), and simply moved by mechanised carts to the their final destinations.

[malec]

I think the best cities are where you have a bit of everything.

[LostInTheZone]

Jane Jacobs sums it up best in the foreword to the 1993 Modern Library edition of Death and Life:

Some people prefer doing their workaday errands on foot, or feel they would like to if they lived in a place where they could. Other people prefer hopping into the car to do errands, or would like to if they had a car. In the old days, before automobiles, some people liked ordering up carriages or sedan chairs and many wished they could. But as we know from novels, biographies, and legends, some people whose social positions required them to ride-except for rural rambles-wistfully peered out at passing street scenes and longed to participate in their camaraderie, bustle, and promises of surprise and adventure.

In a kind of shorthand, we can speak of foot people and car people. This book was instantly understood by foot people, both actual and wishful. They recognized that what it said jibed with their own enjoyment, concerns, and experiences, which is hardly surprising, since much of the book's information came from observing and listening to foot people. They were collaborators in the research. Then, reciprocally, the book collaborated with foot people by giving legitimacy to what they already knew for themselves. Experts of the time did not respect what foot people knew and valued. They were deemed old-fashioned and selfish-troublesome sand in the wheels of progress. It is not easy for uncredentialed people to stand up to the credentialed, even when the so-called expertise is grounded in ignorance and folly. This book turned out to be helpful ammunition against such experts. But it is less accurate to call this effect "influence" than to see it as corroboration and collaboration. Conversely, the book neither collaborated with car people nor had an influence on them. It still does not, as far as I can see.

in short, some people will get it, some people you have to persuade, some people just aren't going to be interested. And as miss Jacobs always tried to say, the best city is one that is diverse and provides all options in balance.

[Nouvellecosse]

In the future, I think people will still be able to choose between different types of cities that suit their preferences - LA will still be LA, Paris will still be Paris, NY will still be NY - they'll just be larger, and adapted to future technologies. However, I don't think the solution is to try to have everything in every single city.

[Xelebes]

The key is to reduce congestion.

Can one imagine living in a city of 10 million in the area of 2 square kilometres with the probable pedestrian congestion? We are going to be faced with the same problems.

The benefits with having pedestrian congestion is that you can make it economical to build alternate paths (bridges and stories). With cars, it becomes less economical because there isn't as much headcount. The only way to make it economical way of expanding the system is to increase the need for movement of materials and goods.

[Reverberation]

100% pedestrian is discrimination against the handicapped, injured, and (very) elderly.

[waterloowarrior]

100% pedestrian is discrimination against the handicapped, injured, and (very) elderly.

it's really the opposite... because many places in our cities have been designed around auto use, this limits accessibility and mobility - there is a need to drive, hard to cross wide streets, no sidewalks, walking/using wheelchair to get to stores etc is too far and it's not dense enough or well designed enough to support transit use (because most can't drive).. right now people with limited mobility can be restricted to where they can be driven or being within the paratranspo schedule

[Chicago103]

http://forum.skyscraperpage.com/showthread.php?p=2659829&posted=1#post2659829

Free mass transit is the wave of a utopian future in my book, one quarter of one percent sales tax? Sign me up, you would hardly notice that, especially the suburban minded people that bitch the most. If we had an economy that was advanced enough where personal transportation is seen as a luxury but mass transit and walking is free and built as quickly as demand dictates. People would only be opposed to that because that is how society has set itself up where driving and parking is seen as an entitlement and is viewed as the more "free market and personal freedom" oriented but upon close examination its just socially engineered. Add the transporter into the mix and you have provisions for the less physically mobile and a means to travel long distances in no time.

[kay]

wel...thinking about that wy not???
citys have great capacity to suport many kind of mobility layers....people could walk in a external skin, and all the transports we need to use, could be on some kind of subways....i think all the mobility layers we have interacting with us, day by day, they could be down...under earth layers of transports, private, public etc etc....and we could enjoy the surfice for us....wel i don't know...i'm having this ideas right now, and writing them here...
the excellent film for this title is THX-1138, from george lucas.

[lawsond]

In the Star Trek future, there'll be earthquake suppression and transporter beams for all shipments.

you ever try to take one of those f'ing teleporter things?
first, the terminals are filthy and full of homeless people and noisy...all that zappng and shit.
second, they are too g-d expensive.
third, the reconstitution lounge is smelly and full of loud teenagers.
i always get a massive headache after being reconstituted and it dehydrating.
why can't we go back to jet aircraft.
so civilized.
i just having these ideas now...and writing them here.