[jmecklenborg]

The point of this thread is to vent some frustration over Cincinnati's inability to get its act together and Atlanta's shocking lack of transit-oriented development. Cincinnati's now more or less the largest city in the world except Detroit without rail transit but has what would be the most densely populated neighborhoods in the entire South. Meanwhile Atlanta's metro has doubled in size since construction of MARTA and has relatively little to show for it. In short, to show these satellite images in Cincinnati would paradoxically show that it is much better suited for rail but that rail does not necessarily live up to the hype when other factors are at play.

MARTA's mediocrity reflects the system's poor design outside downtown Atlanta, the huge simultaneous investments in roads and highways, and zoning that prevents these areas from becoming greater housing and business centers.  Here I picked out areas roughly 4.5 miles from Five Points station on each of MARTA's four branches in order to compare areas of similar distance from Fountain Square in Cincinnati.   

http://i81.photobucket.com/albums/j231/jmecklenborg/atlantawest.jpg

http://i81.photobucket.com/albums/j231/jmecklenborg/altantaeast.jpg

http://i81.photobucket.com/albums/j231/jmecklenborg/atlantanorth.jpg

http://i81.photobucket.com/albums/j231/jmecklenborg/atlantasouth.jpg

Now compare Norwood, 4.5 miles from Fountain Square. The light rail line voted down in 2002 would have traveled directly through this area.
http://i81.photobucket.com/albums/j231/jmecklenborg/norwood.jpg

And Northside, also 4.5 miles:
http://i81.photobucket.com/albums/j231/jmecklenborg/northside.jpg

Now Deer Park, about 8 or 9 miles out. Certainly there is nowhere in the South (except maybe New Orleans) that has a neighborhood this dense this far from its city center. The defeated light rail line was to have used the rail line visible in this image.
http://i81.photobucket.com/albums/j231/jmecklenborg/deerpark.jpg

Also MARTA's inability to cheaply expand reflects the restrictions of heavy rail design -- the lines must be completely grade separated and stations must be 600ft. long.  Light Rail has much more flexibility because it can make grade crossings, travel in-street for short sections, bridges and overpasses can be somewhat less substantial due to the lower weight, and stations are typically much smaller and aren't even staffed (much more like a bus stop).  Some aspects of MARTA's construction are first-rate, like the 4 mile subway under Peachtree St., but had they gone with shorter and ligher light rail vehicles they could have built more lines by now. 

[atl2phx]

interesting study. whats the problem in cincy....it seems like light rail is pretty much a no brainer, right? your observations about marta are spot on. not that it will fix or make up for the cost inefficiencies associated with marta's design, but i'm hoping for the full development of the proposed atlanta beltline. as planned, the beltline will create a linear park that connects 40 of atlanta’s parks, including over 1,200 acres of new greenspace and improvements to approximately 700 acres of existing greenspace all connected by light rail or streetcar. it would pass nearby or under a few marta lines, but only comes within walking distance to two marta stations. a lot of the communities along the beltline are either longtime thriving or recently revived sections of atlanta typically withing 5-10 miles from downtown. i believe funding is proposed to come in the form of a tax allocation district. check it out at www.beltline.org

[Brandon716]

I don't think Cincinnati is in the south.

However, this would be a "who cares" vs "who cares" argument, me thinks? ;)

[jmecklenborg]

^It's the two sides of the coin in American urban development -- the lower density city building a rail system but not utilizing its potential while the higher density city in short strives to be a lower density city, going so far as to abandon its subway line built in the 1920's.

The whole problem with rail transit in the United States is that it is not necessarily built and federal funds are not allocated to where it is most needed. Instead, the existance or non-existance of a rail transit system in the mid-sized cities is the sole result of the efforts of a small group of politicians, local businessmen, and a sympathetic local media to convince a population to vote for a local match to fickle federal funding. Meanwhile, funding for interstates was distributed based on population -- Cincinnati was larger than Atlanta's metro in 1960, this is why Cincinnati has 5 interstate approaches as compared to Atlanta's 4 and a bypass loop that is much farther on average from the city center.

Yet there are legions of people in Cincinnati who believe the city's not big-time enough for rail transit despite, as mentioned above, it is both denser than many cities with light rail and is one of the largest in the world without rail transit.

[Brandon716]

A lot of American cities are kind of like damaged goods. You can patch it, but you can't fix it due to the overbearing circumstances from all directions.

Take for example my recent comments on real estate in another thread here. Even pro-urbanites aren't in tune with what is killing the ability to lure people and development back into the city. The question isn't if you personally can afford the high condo costs or be willing to live in a 400 sq ft armpit, its if a majority of people can sustain living in a city based on the average or mean income of a city. Neither side seems to really get it, the one side who hates the city, and the city lovers who are oblivious to reality.

In my opinion there are a few places in North America that stand out above the rest, everyone else is damaged goods.

Cincinnati and Atlanta would meet the damaged goods claim in my opinion. The problem comes from the people. Whether people are propagandized or not is kind of beside the point. In life its really all about the power players and their desires. People don't choose to live in a subdivision. Powerful developers make the subdivisions that public policy promotes and makes them the most profit, and they market a packaged product to people to make people think they want it.

All I wished is that we had a different system with more choices, and like I said... Damaged goods are hard to bring back to life.

Some people wonder why I love Toronto so much, and its because while there are massive problems to deal with regarding housing affordability, its not gotten out of control like NY or SF. You can buy a highrise condo for $150-250k in Toronto with average incomes that allow for it more often than many competitors south of the border. That and you don't have to deal with the massive ghettos and typical social/economic divisions (at least not on the same levels) as we have here.

Everytime I go to Chicago by automobile I'm disgusted by the region until I actually get into the city. The typical white vs black vs latino American feeling, the massive ghettos, the elite wealth on the other side of the tracks. Yet its an amazingly great city to be surrounded by so much typical American b.s.

When I visit Toronto by automobile I consider its suburbs to be suburbs, but at least they are more livable without the massive ghettos with transit availability. And the city is great as you typically would expect. And you don't see average home prices pushing $700k yet, much like SF or NY.

When you start discussing places like Cincy and Atlanta, I think of typical bland America. Every city has a Macy's, Best Buy, and Wal Mart. But Atlanta defines it, and it has nothing to offer except being a center of thug culture and contrasted with the old American south outside the city.

Eww.. My spine shrivels thinking of how crappy Atlanta is.

Cincinnati? Eh. Uninspiring.

The ironic thing is that a metro area of 2 million or 4 million in Europe would be the perfect picture postcard main street city with transit lines all around.

In America, however, its just another crappy suburb.

The ironic thing is that in Europe the cities would have other limitations typical of European cities. Housing is insanely expensive there as well, so most people over there can't afford their inflated prices either.

There are only a few cities on Earth I could enjoy living in. LOL

[LMich]

Just a something to take note of, but built density is not a prerequisite for new rapid transit lines. As has been noted, Cincy, and established cities like it, don't have rail not because it can't happen, but rather local, divisive politics at the end of the day.

[Brandon716]

Just a something to take note of, but built density is not a prerequisite for new rapid transit lines. As has been noted, Cincy, and established cities like it, don't have rail not because it can't happen, but rather local, divisive politics at the end of the day.

Great observation.

Some of you may call me the great pessimist, but I feel like being a rebel rouser. People don't seem to get off their intellectually lazy bums until someone makes a statement.

We aren't far enough removed from the dark ages. Take away all the ism's and start to think. Its not about capitalism, socialism, conservatism, liberalism, homosexualism, heterosexualism, racism, or any other isms.

Its about how do we sustain humanity and offer better living conditions while offering total social freedom to be who you want to be.

Lets face it, we're dealing with damaged goods and we need to start today.

The fact that Cincinnati voted down an ambitious rail transit plan isn't starting today, its going backwards into the future.

[shanthemanatl]

Atlanta has nothing to offer but "thug culture" and "contrast with the old American south outside the city"???

What a load of utter bullshit.

I think if you could manage to lower yourself to visit Atlanta for a few days (shriveled spine notwithstanding) and discover the real heart of this city, you'd understand how completely ridiculous this statement is.

And you may not be aware, or perhaps you don't care, but your reference to "thug culture" is widely recognized here as an oh-so-thinly-veiled racial epithet. Shocking words from such a progressive-minded individual!

[sprtsluvr8]

I take it heckles has visited Atlanta many times in order to gain all of this expertise on how 'crappy' the city really is. You obviously are stating what you THINK is accurate information, and you couldn't be more wrong in your assessment. Or maybe you're just trying start some mess? Piss off an Atlanta forumer or two? It's not working...i'm not made at you. I'll pray for you tho.

[arbeiter]

Atlanta, however, is a sad example of how something just won't click if the density is not there. There're only a few places in Atlanta where something of MARTA's heavy-rail girth would be useful. TOD didn't take off all that much... sometimes you can't change a culture no matter how hard you try. Look at how miserable it's been to drive in LA for how long, and you still can't feasibly rely on public transit and still maintain a high quality of life. (Certain corridors excepted)

[shanthemanatl]

Did someone change their post? i don't see any thug culture references. Atlanta, however, is a sad example of how something just won't click if the density is not there. There're only a few places in Atlanta where something of MARTA's heavy-rail girth would be useful. TOD didn't take off all that much... sometimes you can't change a culture no matter how hard you try. Look at how miserable it's been to drive in LA for how long, and you still can't feasibly rely on public transit and still maintain a high quality of life. (Certain corridors excepted)

See the 9th paragraph of his post to see the reference to "thug culture".

Having lived in Atlanta for 8 years, I have considerable experience living with the city's shortcomings when it comes to mass transit, urban planning, and sprawl. I also have considerable experience living with its wonderful, generous people, its stunning, tree-filled neighborhoods, its fascinating history and culture, its dynamic and affordable real estate market, its countless career opportunities.....I could go on. I think most of us have certainly been able to maintain a "high quality of life".

As someone who re-located here and eventually fell in love with the city, I just take exception to such sweeping generalizations about Atlanta or any other place. I've only passed thru Cincinnati on a couple of occasions, but I'm sure it's far from uninspiring to those who truly know and love the city.

[arbeiter]

ahh, I caught it, thanks.
I wasn't arguing about its history, culture, job market, etc... just about the mass transit.

[martarider]

This thread appears to be going downhill fast, but if I could just interject one thing -- there is, for the record, TOD in Atlanta. I recently moved to a 20-story highrise that just went up a half-block from a MARTA station, where I now happily live car-free. Needless to say, my station area was not included in the above analysis.

Granted, MARTA could be doing a lot more to encourage this sort of thing, but I'll give credit to local developers for figuring out on their own that proximity to a rail station is something even Atlantans can appreciate. Based on a quick scan of the ATL construction thread (http://forum.skyscraperpage.com/showthread.php?t=121503), the vast majority of current highrise projects are going up within walking distance of a MARTA station, despite the very limited coverage area of the system. It's actually one of the more encouraging aspects of the current development scene.

[arbeiter]

Okay, well for the past 30 years then ;)

[cabasse]

Did someone change their post? i don't see any thug culture references. Atlanta, however, is a sad example of how something just won't click if the density is not there. There're only a few places in Atlanta where something of MARTA's heavy-rail girth would be useful. TOD didn't take off all that much... sometimes you can't change a culture no matter how hard you try. Look at how miserable it's been to drive in LA for how long, and you still can't feasibly rely on public transit and still maintain a high quality of life. (Certain corridors excepted)

tod's are just now starting to happen there - along the lines of the lindbergh center model. (it being the first) more should be following on the northeast, east and south lines, as marta sells off land adjacent to those stations.

atlanta impresses me because it built something out of practically nothing. it had no reason to exist other than as a railroad endpoint, but it's grown to become a relatively major metropolis in a short period of time. it's just now starting to take care of what needs to be done to hold it's own in the world. it's really suprising how few props it gets (especially on these forums) for being a city just over a million to have built a heavy rail transit system, in the south, and in the '70s. it could be expected that low density crap would follow though - these areas were booming in the heyday of suburban design.

atlanta's a college town though, and has another major university right next door. they're cranking out the talent towards solving its problems.

heckles, a nashvillian, has always seemed to have an almost undescribable loathing for atlanta though... utmost apologies for what happened to you there. i was gaybashed myself in piedmont park a couple of years ago, but i don't blame the city for it. you poor poor elitist you!

[tdawg]

This whole thread reads like Sour Grapes. At least Atlanta had the foresight 30 years ago to build MARTA. The Beltline, which the city is pushing very hard, is one of the most innovative transit ideas in the country and when built and tied in to MARTA, will give Atlanta one of the best transit systems in N.A. Heckles never misses an opportunity to bash Atlanta. Imagine if everyone who had ever had a bad experience while visiting a city instantly hated that place, no one would ever go anywhere. I lived in Atlanta for seven years, gay as they come, and never once had a single incident.

http://www.beltline.org/what/maps/mapIndex.html

[cabasse]

Also MARTA's inability to cheaply expand reflects the restrictions of heavy rail design -- the lines must be completely grade separated and stations must be 600ft. long. Light Rail has much more flexibility because it can make grade crossings, travel in-street for short sections, bridges and overpasses can be somewhat less substantial due to the lower weight, and stations are typically much smaller and aren't even staffed (much more like a bus stop). Some aspects of MARTA's construction are first-rate, like the 4 mile subway under Peachtree St., but had they gone with shorter and ligher light rail vehicles they could have built more lines by now.

the only reason i can think of that more lines would've been built by now is that light rail is cheaper, therefore more money might've been left behind to be put towards other extentions. there's not really any reason future spoke lines can't be built as lrt instead though, and there is also a light rail ring system being planned. (and it's moving closer to fruition with each new piece of land the city aquires) there was also a very recent announcement towards a 1bn peachtree redevelopment project (http://forum.skyscraperpage.com/showpost.php?p=2630919&postcount=795), with two new streetcar lines - one along peachtree, and a small downtown/east side circulator. (though there have been talks for a few years about a peachtree streetcar, the circulator is a new idea)

when marta rail was planned out, creating areas of increased density wasn't one of the key points of it's design, like today's light rail systems. regardless, it still has a much higher level of ridership than any other american city only using light rail, with over 250k daily riders - northeastern, midwestern or otherwise.

[Stratosphere 2020]

This thread appears to be going downhill fast, but if I could just interject one thing -- there is, for the record, TOD in Atlanta. I recently moved to a 20-story highrise that just went up a half-block from a MARTA station, where I now happily live car-free. Needless to say, my station area was not included in the above analysis.

Granted, MARTA could be doing a lot more to encourage this sort of thing, but I'll give credit to local developers for figuring out on their own that proximity to a rail station is something even Atlantans can appreciate. Based on a quick scan of the ATL construction thread (http://forum.skyscraperpage.com/showthread.php?t=121503), the vast majority of current highrise projects are going up within walking distance of a MARTA station, despite the very limited coverage area of the system. It's actually one of the more encouraging aspects of the current development scene.

Right. The dumbest part of this thread is that there are plans of high density development near some of MARTA's Railway station including Lindenberg station. Do people here don't look at the construction threads of Atlanta?! Another failure is the fact that both Atlanta and Cincinati grew explosively in completely different times, one city is still booming somewhat the other is stagnant. Unfortunately this thread has become another let's bash Atlanta thread!

[shanthemanatl]

This whole thread reads like Sour Grapes. At least Atlanta had the foresight 30 years ago to build MARTA. The Beltline, which the city is pushing very hard, is one of the most innovative transit ideas in the country and when built and tied in to MARTA, will give Atlanta one of the best transit systems in N.A. Heckles never misses an opportunity to bash Atlanta. Imagine if everyone who had ever had a bad experience while visiting a city instantly hated that place, no one would ever go anywhere. I lived in Atlanta for seven years, gay as they come, and never once had a single incident.

http://www.beltline.org/what/maps/mapIndex.html

Thanks for the background, guys. I don't usually react so strongly to negative posts, but that one just got under my skin!

I'm truly sorry that he suffered a mugging in Atlanta. I can see how that would color one's impression of the city. There are certainly many other things not to like about Atlanta, but I felt it was important, as an adopted Atlantan, to stand up for my city just a bit!

TDawg, I'm gay as well, and one of the reasons I chose to live in Atlanta is because it is so gay-friendly. My experience has been nothing but positive.

Sorry for the detour...back to the mass transit discussion!

[cabasse]

he didn't suffer a gay bashing, but a mugging. i was just relating my own experience to his.

[Buckeye Native 001]

The fact that Cincinnati voted down an ambitious rail transit plan isn't starting today, its going backwards into the future.

That pretty much sums up Cincinnati's history post-1950.

[jmecklenborg]

>therefore more money might've been left behind to be put towards other extentions. there's not really any reason future spoke lines can't be built as lrt instead though,

Actually the extensions can't be built as light rail because MARTA operates a 3rd electric rail. The only exception I know to this is the Mattapan streetcar which runs directly to a Red Line branch station in Boston and is sometimes drawn as an extension of the Red Line on schematic maps when in fact you have to transfer to a different transit mode. For the reasons outlined in my first post, light rail has significant capital and operational cost advantages over heavy rail in medium density corridors and this east/west line in Atlanta certainly hasn't by any definition densified above the "medium" level.


>lator. (though there have been talks for a few years about a peachtree streetcar, the circulator is a new idea)

I am well aware that Atlanta is constantly improving, I have been there 7 or 8 times since 1986. However the majority of its job and residential growth has been in the suburbs and the other southern cities like Nashville (Nissan?!) seem to be heading blindly down the same path. And unfortunately people in Cincinnati can't get over the fact that it doesn't have a beach and palm trees and instead of trying to be its own thing just whine and take trips down to Hliton Head. The core problem in Cincinnati is that it has the real thing but the masses want the pastiche, which Atlanta has copious quantities of. People want the idea of a quaint main street but they don't want the real thing when it involves the occasional mugging, car towing, or walk in a puddle.

[cabasse]

^ i should've made myself more clear - future lines couldn't share the same track, no, but they wouldn't have to. they could funnel into any number of stations where one would transfer to the existing subway. something similar is already planned with a couple of stations and the future beltline (http://www.beltline.org/media/docs/PDF_mapOverview.pdf).

[Segun]

.

When you start discussing places like Cincy and Atlanta, I think of typical bland America. Every city has a Macy's, Best Buy, and Wal Mart. But Atlanta defines it, and it has nothing to offer except being a center of thug culture and contrasted with the old American south outside the city.


Atlanta is one of the premier centers of black intellectualism, creativity, entertainment, and progress. Its historical relevance to the civil rights movement is undenaible as is its present influence, good or bad. If you want to label that as "Thug Culture", fine, but I pray our paths never cross.

Before you complain about driving into cities and getting disgusted by racial divides, you need to gaze up at your rear view mirror for the real source of disgust.

[ColDayMan]

Well, anyone that says that Cincinnati is (if ANY adjective to use) uninspiring is a twit. The city has a bizillion issues and adjectives to describe it, but "uninspiring" is not one of them.

[ColDayMan]

The core problem in Cincinnati is that it has the real thing but the masses want the pastiche, which Atlanta has copious quantities of. People want the idea of a quaint main street but they don't want the real thing when it involves the occasional mugging, car towing, or walk in a puddle.

I can dig it, but I do love Atlanta.

[smArTaLlone]

I would ignore the bizarre rantings of a Nashville homer.

But I sort of don't get the comparison. Atlanta's lack TOD development IMO has more to do to with the general abanadonment of the city itself for most of the last 30 years than Marta's poor station design. The city was losing population until the mid 90's (down 100,000 from its peak) so it would be difficult to have increased density in those areas. For that matter the majority of growth in US as a whole has been in the suburbs in that time period. Now that there is growth in the city again, we are seeing that kind of development around Marta stations and increasing density throughout the city.

The times I've visited Cincy, the traffic didn't seem to be a big problem. Is that the reality?

[tdawg]

actually, jmecklenborg, percentage-wise, the inner city of Atlanta is the fastest growing part of the metro, reversing the trend of the past 20 years.

[cabasse]

^ (in coldayman's second post) regarding that first sentence - is that referring to the cities themselves, or the whole metro? no doubt the city of cincinnati has a ton more historic housing and a denser downtown, but i wouldn't think of [the city of] atlanta's "pastiche" as its drawing point. historic neighborhoods around the city are quite beautiful, and i would argue every bit as real as cincinnati's, even if in much lower quantity. as far as what's being built there now, sure some of it's kinda pastiche, but that's just because people have low standards. that whole quote, though good, seems to be much too generalistic just like heckles' remark of thug culture. (just much less offensive)

[ColDayMan]

No no no. I never meant to diss Atlanta and trust me, I know the actual city + Decatur are quite urban and have endless character (love love love Virginia Highlands, Little Five Points, etc). I meant metro-wise.

[cabasse]

don't worry i wasn't taking it as a disrespect, and i guess it was more directed at jmecklenborg, as he was the original author. (and as i found after i scanned the thread again)

[DallasTexan]

things we have learned from this thread:

1. cincinnati and atlanta are awesome cities

2. american cities have poor transportation options

3. heckles has silly views

4. even though i have an important position with the world's second largest bank, i still find time to goof off during the workday.

ohhhhhhhkay.

[UncleRando]

Its true that Cincy has MANY problems...most originating from the conservative political climate that has existed over the past 20-30 years. This has been at the county level, as well as, the state level and has severely hurt all major urban centers in Ohio (Cleveland, Cbus, Dayton, Akron, Toledo). But that climate is beginning to change...Dems now control the statehouse in Cbus, mostly all city governments in the state, and for Cincy the county is now controlled by Dems for the first time in decades!!!

As a result, mass transit is coming up into conversation again. Streetcars seem imminent for both Cincy and Cbus...the Ohio Hub regional rail effort is moving along, and Cincy is continuing to pursue light rail.

Cincy has definitly been behind the curve on transit issues over the past 30-40 years or so, but it takes some time to reverse trends like that...be patient and Cincy will have the transit system to accompany its great urban fabric!

[jmecklenborg]

Rando, Cincinnati City Council as well as many others have been controlled by Democrats for decades, rail transit has never been a political issue in Cincinnati or many places during our lifetimes. In fact the current streetcar champion is vice mayor Tarbell, who is a Charterite (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charter_Party). Mass transit isn't even on Al Gore's agenda.

[bobdreamz]

I was going to comment that the overall polictical climate & leadership of a city/metro has a lot to do with how mass transit develops. You can knock Atlanta but it was only one of two cities in the South to build a heavy rail system (miami being the other). Cincy has a reputation for being conservative hence maybe it's inability to pass any rail based transit initiatives previously. The other equation of course are the Feds which lately haven't been transit friendly.

[jmecklenborg]

^The problem with the light rail vote in 2002 was that it was coming on the heals of the stadium sales tax debacle...if light rail had come up for vote before the stadiums, maybe it would be here now. There was also the hangover from the 2001 so-called riot (I say that because I know one person who worked in OTR at the time who didn't even know there was a "riot" until he went home and saw it on TV).

During the interstate construction era, it didn't matter if a city was on the upswing or downswing, it was going to get a fabulous expressway system with only a 10% local match, no matter what. In fact it took a grassroots effort to BLOCK expressway construction in many cases as large or larger than the efforts to build rail transit.

[ColDayMan]

I was going to comment that the overall polictical climate & leadership of a city/metro has a lot to do with how mass transit develops. You can knock Atlanta but it was only one of two cities in the South to build a heavy rail system (miami being the other). Cincy has a reputation for being conservative hence maybe it's inability to pass any rail based transit initiatives previously. The other equation of course are the Feds which lately haven't been transit friendly.

Political views have nothing to do with transit. Salt Lake City and San Diego have equal reputations of conservatism yet they have mass transit. And if it were a liberal/conservative issue, then Detroit would be freakin' Moscow in transit. The 2002 ballot (which I believe was the city's first official vote for rail) was turned down due to the stadium (stadii?) fiascos of Paul Brown and the Reds ballpark (aka they didn't want to pay more taxes). It's more about the incompetence of ODOT (hell, state government in general) if anything else.

[shanthemanatl]

Its true that Cincy has MANY problems...most originating from the conservative political climate that has existed over the past 20-30 years. This has been at the county level, as well as, the state level and has severely hurt all major urban centers in Ohio (Cleveland, Cbus, Dayton, Akron, Toledo). But that climate is beginning to change...Dems now control the statehouse in Cbus, mostly all city governments in the state, and for Cincy the county is now controlled by Dems for the first time in decades!!!

As a result, mass transit is coming up into conversation again. Streetcars seem imminent for both Cincy and Cbus...the Ohio Hub regional rail effort is moving along, and Cincy is continuing to pursue light rail.

Cincy has definitly been behind the curve on transit issues over the past 30-40 years or so, but it takes some time to reverse trends like that...be patient and Cincy will have the transit system to accompany its great urban fabric!

If only Jerry Springer could have been crowned "Mayor For Life"!

[fflint]

You want to talk about transit in Atlanta then do that. You want to talk about Cincinnati's lack of trains, then do that. Just don't set them up one city against the other in the same thread and expect people not to get upset at each other, and for the thread not to get closed. This is literally a versus thread.