[champdemars]

After years of waiting, AMT (Agence métropolitaine des transports) finally published yesterday studies for the Light rail project between Brossard (South Shore) and Downtown. The price of the project is about $1000M. If funding is approved for that project, a 13KM line, with 2 stations in Brossard and 3 in Montreal, will be builded.

http://www.amt.qc.ca/docs/pdf/slr/SLR_Executive_summary.pdf
http://www.amt.qc.ca/docs/pdf/slr/SLR_Studies_report.pdf

[the dude]

i'll believe it when i see it.

[Justin10000]

13km for 1 Billion??

Or is that 100 Million?

! billion is insane.

[champdemars]

13km for 1 Billion??

Or is that 100 Million?

! billion is insane.

It's really 1 bilion. We are talking about a system that will offer the same performance as a subway. 25,000 users per HOUR will use the service by 2016. The line will be fully automated. Some part of the line will be elevated, some will be in the middle of the expressway, with 0.5KM underground. Each station will cost about 20 milions. The biggest part of the project is a huge bridge that will cross the St-Lawrence Seaway.

at 1 bilion, it is 70 milion/km, which is not so bad for the performance it will do. The subway line at Laval (which will open in 2 months) costed 150 milions/km.

This will be more like the skytrain in Vancouver.

At 100 milion, you would have a tramway system that will be sharing the street with cars.. We are really not talking about the same system you seems to have in mind. Take time to read the PDF I published, you will see what I mean. There is some nice pictures of planned stations.

[Grumpy]

Regarding the speed to built a small exention to Laval this line is going to be in service not before 2020.
Why does it always have to go so slow in Montréal ??

[cornholio]

13km for 1 Billion??

Or is that 100 Million?

! billion is insane.

I believe that average LRT costs are about $85 million per kilometer in NA, so that sounds actualy reletivly cheap.

[champdemars]

Regarding the speed to built a small exention to Laval this line is going to be in service not before 2020.
Why does it always have to go so slow in Montréal ??

The project of Laval first appeared during the elections of 1998. The construction itself began in 2001... There was a moratory of a few month for the attribution of contracts in 2004, to make sure that money was well managed. So that make 6 years of construction. It is not so bad for a subway, but it's really not a record.

The real problem is that between the opening of Laval and the last opening of the blue line, there is a gap of 20 years... an eternity! Lets hope we will not wait another 20 years before seeing another big project of rapid transit.

[The Chemist]

I believe that average LRT costs are about $85 million per kilometer in NA, so that sounds actualy reletivly cheap.

That's a lot higher than the LRT construction cost in Calgary, which has averaged less than $25 million per kilometre over the total build out of the system. $85 milliion per kilometre sounds REALLY high.

[WHY-T]

As you may find in the documents posted, the larger bulk of the cost goes to the infrastructure works. In this, a significant portion of the cost goes to the construction of the bridge just to cross the St-Lawrence Seaway, which is asymetrically located by the shore with its high clearance requirement for ships.

[Xelebes]

That's a lot higher than the LRT construction cost in Calgary, which has averaged less than $25 million per kilometre over the total build out of the system. $85 milliion per kilometre sounds REALLY high.


We talking about the new legs?

[MolsonExport]

Montreal is a much older city than Calgary. To dig up streets/piping/etc. in older cities is usually very challenging (e.g., Big Dig in Boston)...half the time, infrastructure maps of 100-200 years ago are completely lacking or incomplete.

[The Chemist]

We talking about the new legs?

Even the new west line, with a budget of about $600 million and a length of 10+ km is nowhere near $85 million per kilometre.

[champdemars]

Even the new west line, with a budget of about $600 million and a length of 10+ km is nowhere near $85 million per kilometre.

That make $60 milion/KM. I am not aware of the west line project, what you have exactly for that price?

Paris just opened the new T3 line at $60 milion/KM. The proposed tramway project on Park Avenue, in Montreal, is around $50 million/KM

Also, I know that the c-Train, in Calgary, is running in streets in downtown... which is probably cheaper than having elevated rails. You have to compare apples with apples.

Light-rail refer to many kind of implementations. It all depend how you implement it. For example, do you want stations that looks like bus stops? (like most of light-rails/tramways systems have) Or you want comfortable stations, heated/air-conditionned, that can handle a huge amount of passengers? What is the traffic expected on the line? 10,000 persons/hour? or 30,000 persons/hour?

All these specifications change the price of the project.

[twoNeurons]

Montreal is a much older city than Calgary. To dig up streets/piping/etc. in older cities is usually very challenging (e.g., Big Dig in Boston)...half the time, infrastructure maps of 100-200 years ago are completely lacking or incomplete.

Calgary's line is also nowhere near automated, and is only grade-separated where there were existing convenient ROWs existing already along rail ROW or Highway ROW. Calgary's LRT was also built before China and India and Africa started to demand more raw materials like concrete.

I'm curious how much it would cost/km to bury Calgary's LRT downtown now... I would think it would be up there, despite planning already been done to do that, and even though it's a newer city.

[twoNeurons]

Even the new west line, with a budget of about $600 million and a length of 10+ km is nowhere near $85 million per kilometre.

Will the West line be automated in its own ROW? That can double the cost.

Also, I know that the c-Train, in Calgary, is running in streets in downtown... which is probably cheaper than having elevated rails. You have to compare apples with apples.
Not probably... definitely. The cost of concrete alone drives the price WAY up. But hey, it's the price of automation, the price of speed.

[cornholio]

That's a lot higher than the LRT construction cost in Calgary, which has averaged less than $25 million per kilometre over the total build out of the system. $85 milliion per kilometre sounds REALLY high.

There were studies that were done by Translink in Vancouver in regards to the propsed lrt Evergreen line. I remeber them comparing costs between a bunch of cities with lrt and that was ruffly the number they gave...ill try and idg it out and post it.

[zilfondel]

Light-rail refer to many kind of implementations. It all depend how you implement it. For example, do you want stations that looks like bus stops?

Wouldn't be too bad, right?

http://www.the-bus-stops-here.org/Glenn_Ride-Origina_Jimmy_U-now_replaced-s.jpg

[Coyett]

13km for 1 Billion??

Or is that 100 Million?

! billion is insane.

Seems to me the line is a real bargain. Construction of Taipei's new 14km long elevated LRT line will cost in excess of 2.4 billion.

[Grumpy]

What about the extension of the blue line to Anjou ?

[lubicon]

The last figures I saw for Calgary's NW extension to Crowfoot is $183 million for a 4km extension which works out to $46 mil / km. But that includes widening Crowchild Trail from 4 lanes to 6 and an interchange at Nosehill Drive. The actual budgeted amount for the LRT portion is $116 million, or $29 million/km. It is a very simple extension requiring minimal effort. The right of way exists for the track already and they only need to build 1 station.

For Montreal's line, the figures don't sound too farfetched to me considering the length, the fact that there will be a number of stations, and the bridge over the river (??).

[officedweller]

As champdemars mentioned above, this is more "mini-metro" than street-running LRT - along the Skytrain model.....

Interesting tidbits from the summary report:

Automated or semi-automated operation.

The artist's rendering of the trains (which means nothing) looks like an automated Bombardier MKII train with intermediate cars (i.e. Vancouver Skytrain with "C" cars inserted) and an overhead caternary - but the MKIIs to date only have used a third rail.

http://img401.imageshack.us/img401/3193/untitled1os1.jpg

The system will have platform screen doors - due to the cold weather that will exist on the elevated line.

"A 100% traction system has been retained because of local weather conditions and the long slopes existing on the route." The long report says this means that "each car will be equipped with traction motors". Not sure if this description would exclude the linear induction MKII cars or not. Traction system usually means gear driven, I think.

The long form report indicates a max speed of 100 km/h with a max "catch-up" speed of 110 km/h. Don't think the MKIIs can do that!

[twoNeurons]

And they'd have to cope with ice/snow on the Skytrain Trench...

However, if it's grades they're concerned about, the LIM system Skytrain uses is a good choice... it doesn't rely on friction.

[officedweller]

That's what I was thinking - and there wouldn't be a problem with braking on icy tracks.

The long form report indicates they want a maximum operating speed of 100 km/h with a "catch-up" speed of 110 km/h!!

Anyways - cost info from the long form report (geez, makes the Canada Line look cheap!):

http://img186.imageshack.us/img186/5752/untitled1sr3.jpg

http://img127.imageshack.us/img127/7304/untitled2kz8.jpg

[champdemars]

What about the extension of the blue line to Anjou ?

This is a priority for the city of Montreal, but not necessary for the metropolitan area. The A-10 LRT system is more cost-effective than the blue line project. Anyway expect that the city will soon focus on tramway instead of the blue line.

At 17,000 passengers/hour today for the bus system, the LRT line would see, in 2016, its ridership goes up at 27,000 passengers/hour... compared to 21,000 if nothing is done.

Also, that project has the big advantage to be supported both by buses users and by car users of the Champlain Bridge.

[Bert]

The 100 km/h speed for this sounds good, considering the distance between stations. Decent price too, with all the bells and whistles it has.

[MTL Lucas]

Is there any plan to link the terminus at Chevrier with the Dix30 development?

They should be right across the highway from one another and it seems like an obvious benefit.

[ssiguy]

Just to let you know the Vancouver RAV line cost estimate is now $2.1 billion. When it was first brought forward in 2002 it was suppose to cost $1.5 billion so god knows what the final price tag will be.

[MolsonExport]

That's what I was thinking - and there wouldn't be a problem with braking on icy tracks.

The long form report indicates they want a maximum operating speed of 100 km/h with a "catch-up" speed of 110 km/h!!

Anyways - cost info from the long form report (geez, makes the Canada Line look cheap!):

http://img186.imageshack.us/img186/5752/untitled1sr3.jpg

http://img127.imageshack.us/img127/7304/untitled2kz8.jpg


thanks for the great info; puts things in perspective.