[SDfan]

Really? This giant piece of art (junk) sitting smack in the middle of the downtown waterfront, completely discordant with the landscape and serving no purpose other that (further) junking up the view, is going to draw people like the Eiffel Tower or the St. Louis arch? LOL.

Kinda like people will want to fly to SD to see this "iconic" piece of junk:

http://art.san.org/pub_art/legacy/galleries/at_the_gate_gallery.aspx?dir=/images/collections/legacy/at_the_gate/large/

?

My earlier post regarding this issue. This post, total case in point.

:leek: (midwestern bumpkins)

[kpexpress]

I like the idea of the park and the symphony and it makes sense to have an iconic art installation or landmark there. My problem with these are that these wings serve no purpose. If you want to use opera house, Eiffel tower, etc - they all serve a purpose/function. This is just out of scale art.

[twrb]

Exactly. There are ways to bring artistic designs to the waterfront that complement the landscape and the view, rather than clutter it up with "sculpture" like this giant sort thumb or the "Sailor Kissing Girl" thing that looks like something dragged from grandma's attic. Our waterfront is starting to resemble a flea market.

I like the idea of the park and the symphony and it makes sense to have an iconic art installation or landmark there. My problem with these are that these wings serve no purpose. If you want to use opera house, Eiffel tower, etc - they all serve a purpose/function. This is just out of scale art.

[OneMetropolis]

Really? This giant piece of art (junk) sitting smack in the middle of the downtown waterfront, completely discordant with the landscape and serving no purpose other that (further) junking up the view, is going to draw people like the Eiffel Tower or the St. Louis arch? LOL.

Kinda like people will want to fly to SD to see this "iconic" piece of junk:

http://art.san.org/pub_art/legacy/galleries/at_the_gate_gallery.aspx?dir=/images/collections/legacy/at_the_gate/large/

?

That's exactly how I feel about this sculpture. It's like someone just came up with that design off the top of their head.

[HurricaneHugo]

I like the idea of the park and the symphony and it makes sense to have an iconic art installation or landmark there. My problem with these are that these wings serve no purpose. If you want to use opera house, Eiffel tower, etc - they all serve a purpose/function. This is just out of scale art.

What's the purpose of the Eiffel Tower and the Arch?

Just observation decks?

Put an observation deck on here and boom it has a function.

[spoonman]

Looks like giant insect wings...unbelievable

[LosAngelesDreamin]

Midway aircraft carrier museum proposes $68 million plan with 500-foot-high sail-like structures; critcs say views will be blocked

Sydney has its opera house, St. Louis its arch and Paris, the Eiffel Tower.

San Diego can match those iconic images with "Wings of Freedom," a 500-foot-high sculpture shaped like sails or wings on the downtown waterfront, the San Diego Unified Port District was told Tuesday.

The Midway aircraft carrier museum proposed the concept as part of a $68 million development, called "Veterans Park," on the adjacent Navy Pier:


A 500-space parking lot;
A 5-acre park on a deck 12 to 20 feet above the lot;
A permanent home for the San Diego Symphony's Summer Pops concerts with capacity for 6,000 attendees, plus public restrooms; and,
The "Wings of Freedom" sails flanking the pops amphitheater.


http://www.signonsandiego.com/news/2011/nov/08/skyscraper-sized-wings-sculpture-proposed-navy-pie/

http://media.signonsandiego.com/img/photos/2011/11/08/navypier-overview_t593.jpg?f53c1bb70f629018cec0bd6246c82dae770b93ac
http://media.signonsandiego.com/img/photos/2011/11/08/alternate_without_titanium_t593.bmp?f53c1bb70f629018cec0bd6246c82dae770b93ac

lol sky area with what looks like the moon looks like something out of a syfy movie =] the moon aint that big haha

[Illithid Dude]

I'm actually in San Diego right now. I come here a lot, but normally stick to Coronado and the immediate downtown area. I think, this time, I'll branch out a little. Is there anywhere that I should go that would have attractive modern architecture and good urban design? Thanks!

[Derek]

I'm actually in San Diego right now. I come here a lot, but normally stick to Coronado and the immediate downtown area. I think, this time, I'll branch out a little. Is there anywhere that I should go that would have attractive modern architecture and good urban design? Thanks!



Not really? La Jolla?


:(

[mello]

I'm actually in San Diego right now. I come here a lot, but normally stick to Coronado and the immediate downtown area. I think, this time, I'll branch out a little. Is there anywhere that I should go that would have attractive modern architecture and good urban design? Thanks!

Hmm attractive modern architecture? I guess the UCSD campus has some pretty cool stuff that has been built in the last few years. San Diego is just like LA Illithid Dude, any cool stuff is few and far between and scattered all over the place. There is no area where you can walk for blocks and marvel at nice architecture and an "urban environment". If you can list the neighborhoods you have visited it could help.

The best design is usually residential homes unfortunately. So you have been to Bankers Hill/Hillcrest I'm assuming right? Maybe you should go down to Tijuana and mix it up a bit. :cheers:

[Illithid Dude]

Hmm attractive modern architecture? I guess the UCSD campus has some pretty cool stuff that has been built in the last few years. San Diego is just like LA Illithid Dude, any cool stuff is few and far between and scattered all over the place. There is no area where you can walk for blocks and marvel at nice architecture and an "urban environment". If you can list the neighborhoods you have visited it could help.

The best design is usually residential homes unfortunately. So you have been to Bankers Hill/Hillcrest I'm assuming right? Maybe you should go down to Tijuana and mix it up a bit. :cheers:

I've been pretty much all around Coronado and Downtown, but haven't really been outside of those two areas with the exception of going to Fashion Valley Mall or a movie.

[SD_Phil]

I second Banker's Hill/Hillcrest. BH has a lot of nice, large, homes basically in between 1st and 4th and south of Brooks/North of Laurel. It's a nice walking path with a couple of historic pedestrian bridges.

If you have some $$ consider eating at Cucina Urbana. It's not super pricey but it is super good. (I live around here now having moved three blocks south from Hillcrest into BH).

Hillcrest has some nice 30s/40s stuff that would fit into some of the less dense neighborhoods in LA and a couple of good bars. Restaurants are mostly overrated. In any case, have fun!

[kpexpress]

What's the purpose of the Eiffel Tower and the Arch?

Just observation decks?

Put an observation deck on here and boom it has a function.

Eiffel Tower was a well thought out and super progressive engineering accomplishment - it had a specific purpose, it was to act as a gateway and landmark for the world's fair. It has a program and no one ever disputes that it doesn't serve a modern day purpose. Same can be said about the STL arch - gateway for western expansion, but more importantly it is fully integrated into the plan of the city. Everything that's done in that town is sensitive to the arch.

The wings on the water mean nothing. they're out of scale and seemingly designed with little meaning and serves no purpose.... other than looking like junk on the water. It's sculpture, not architecture.

[OneMetropolis]

Eiffel Tower was a well thought out and super progressive engineering accomplishment - it had a specific purpose, it was to act as a gateway and landmark for the world's fair. It has a program and no one ever disputes that it doesn't serve a modern day purpose. Same can be said about the STL arch - gateway for western expansion, but more importantly it is fully integrated into the plan of the city. Everything that's done in that town is sensitive to the arch.

The wings on the water mean nothing. they're out of scale and seemingly designed with little meaning and serves no purpose.... other than looking like junk on the water. It's sculpture, not architecture.


Well put. :tup:

[SDCAL]

I heard on NPR that this version of the "wings" being floated around is supposedly nowhere near the original concept the artist had in mind. Apparently it's a far scaled-back interpretation designed to save lots of money.

I realize we are in an economic downturn and the city of San Diego is not in the best financial situation, but do we really want to create THE iconic symbol that will truly represent our city to the world "on the cheap"?

Then again, it IS San Diego, maybe some lackluster iconic symbol designed blandly and with low-budget cutting corners would accurately portray our metropolis to the world.

On the one hand, I do have to give the people pushing this credit for at least trying to think out of the box and give our city a globally-recognized iconic symbol.

On the other hand, people need to remember that if we construct a monstrosity, THAT could become an international symbol for our city - one not of grandeur and allure but of sophomoric embarrassment.

I get so frustrated when people compare this to the Sydney Opera House. If only it were.

Bottom line is something like this needs many different design ideas to choose from, not settling on one. Look how long it is taking to get ground zero re-built. People are passionate about the site, various architecture firms designed plans, and a system was put into place to select the best one. We need that here with this site - - there needs to be more plans, more renderings, and then let the people decide which "iconic vision" we want on our waterfront.

[SDCAL]

I second Banker's Hill/Hillcrest. BH has a lot of nice, large, homes basically in between 1st and 4th and south of Brooks/North of Laurel. It's a nice walking path with a couple of historic pedestrian bridges.

If you have some $$ consider eating at Cucina Urbana. It's not super pricey but it is super good. (I live around here now having moved three blocks south from Hillcrest into BH).

Hillcrest has some nice 30s/40s stuff that would fit into some of the less dense neighborhoods in LA and a couple of good bars. Restaurants are mostly overrated. In any case, have fun!

I would also recommend North Park - still kind of gritty, but definitely some cool art venues and a good vibe.

[HurricaneHugo]

Eiffel Tower was a well thought out and super progressive engineering accomplishment - it had a specific purpose, it was to act as a gateway and landmark for the world's fair. It has a program and no one ever disputes that it doesn't serve a modern day purpose. Same can be said about the STL arch - gateway for western expansion, but more importantly it is fully integrated into the plan of the city. Everything that's done in that town is sensitive to the arch.

The wings on the water mean nothing. they're out of scale and seemingly designed with little meaning and serves no purpose.... other than looking like junk on the water. It's sculpture, not architecture.

Ok and what's stopping the Wings to be serve as a gateway and landmark for the city/100th annivesary of the Panama-California exhibition?

What's stopping the Wings to to be fully integrated into the plan of the city?

The only point I agree is that it's a sculpture, not architecture. But even then that can easily be fixed.

[kpexpress]

Ok and what's stopping the Wings to be serve as a gateway and landmark for the city/100th annivesary of the Panama-California exhibition?

What's stopping the Wings to to be fully integrated into the plan of the city?

The only point I agree is that it's a sculpture, not architecture. But even then that can easily be fixed.

First, no one enters the city, passes through or goes anywhere near where these wings are being proposed. Eiffel was a physical gateway where people walked under it to enter a fair with clearly defined spaces. Not the same at all. The wings aren't incorporated in the community plan, they're an awful after-that that goes against the community plan by obstructing view corridors.

[eburress]

First, no one enters the city, passes through or goes anywhere near where these wings are being proposed. Eiffel was a physical gateway where people walked under it to enter a fair with clearly defined spaces. Not the same at all. The wings aren't incorporated in the community plan, they're an awful after-that that goes against the community plan by obstructing view corridors.

The more I see the wings, the tackier I think they look! lol

[Derek]

It's honestly one of the most stupid proposals/ideas I've ever seen. :(

[HurricaneHugo]

First, no one enters the city, passes through or goes anywhere near where these wings are being proposed. Eiffel was a physical gateway where people walked under it to enter a fair with clearly defined spaces. Not the same at all. The wings aren't incorporated in the community plan, they're an awful after-that that goes against the community plan by obstructing view corridors.

And now that the fair is long gone what's it purpose to Parisians other than a landmark/tourist trap? Observation Deck? TV Antennas? Two things that can easily be incorporated to the Wings?

I mean really a gateway that's it? I understand World Fairs usually involve constructing some sort of landmark but calling its main purpose a gateway well...

And most people hated the Eiffel Tower when it was constructed

I think it's ridiculous to compare the Wings to the Eiffel Tower/Gateway Arch/Sydney Opera house but I think with some revisions and added functions it could be a landmark for San Diego.

[SDfan]

And now that the fair is long gone what's it purpose to Parisians other than a landmark/tourist trap? Observation Deck? TV Antennas? Two things that can easily be incorporated to the Wings?

I mean really a gateway that's it? I understand World Fairs usually involve constructing some sort of landmark but calling its main purpose a gateway well...

And most people hated the Eiffel Tower when it was constructed

I think it's ridiculous to compare the Wings to the Eiffel Tower/Gateway Arch/Sydney Opera house but I think with some revisions and added functions it could be a landmark for San Diego.

I agree. I think its interesting that a lot of people who call themselves progressive, champions of changing this city's image as a backwater navy town hell-bent on maintaining our second tier status, are so ready to shoot down this proposal. I mean, I understand function. But does art have to serve some sort of purpose other then being art? Can art and architecture not be one and the same thing? Yeah I get it, its tall, and a sculpture, but come on, its as if the park, the amphitheater, and the parking that are a part of this project aren't enough. Give these people a break! At least they are trying to build something iconic instead of festering in the NIMBYism that has kept this city just above Tuscan in terms of grandeur (no offense to Tuscan).

I'm not saying we need a Sydney Opera House, or an Eiffel tower. But the hate for this piece is so reminiscent of the little-thinking's, small-town lovers who have kept San Diego down for decades.

Lets be a little more constructive.

After reading this forum these past few days I can see why we have been in the halls of San Jose and Tampa Bay...

[SDfan]

Bullet train critics call for new vote
New business plan doesn't cover high-speed rail segment to San Diego

The new plan to build high-speed rail for California — for $98 billion — is more expensive than the original $45 billion project sold to voters in 2008.

It’s also shorter.

The financing plan only covers the first phase of the project, stopping in Anaheim instead of stretching south to San Diego.

Given the higher price tag, and shorter route in the financing plan, some local elected officials want the matter to return to voters.

http://www.signonsandiego.com/news/2011/nov/29/critics-call-for-new-rail-vote/

Also, what do you all think about this article?

[Lipani]

If San Diego gets HSR by the time I retire I'd be shocked.

[staplesla]

Also, what do you all think about this article?

I don't understand why they aren't focusing on SD-LA first. It seems to me if they are truly looking to alleviate traffic HSR would be another alternative for an area that is already congested, and between California's two most populous cities. People routinely travel between LA-SD in large numbers, not between SF-LA. A starter line down here would cost less, and could be built faster.

[202_Cyclist]

staplesla:
"I don't understand why they aren't focusing on SD-LA first. It seems to me if they are truly looking to alleviate traffic HSR would be another alternative for an area that is already congested, and between California's two most populous cities. People routinely travel between LA-SD in large numbers, not between SF-LA. A starter line down here would cost less, and could be built faster.

The Surfliner route connecting Southern California is Amtrak's second busiest route, outside of the Northeast corridor.

http://amtrakcalifornia.com/index.cfm/news/press-releases/california-passenger-rail-garners-more-federal-funding/

Although it would have made perfect sense to build LA-San Diego first, there are several reasons why it wasn't picked. Planning was farther along for the Central Valley segment and the Recovery Act requires that construction begin by 2012. Land is also much cheaper in the Central Valley than coastal Orange County and San Diego, so limited Prop 1A and Recovery Act funding could literally go farther in the Central Valley. Unemployment is also significantly higher in the Central Valley than Southern California, and of course one of the goals of the Recovery Act is to reduce unemployment (which most economists agree it has done: http://www.csmonitor.com/USA/Politics/monitor_breakfast/2010/0825/Economist-Zandi-John-Boehner-just-wrong-about-Obama-stimulus).

[bmfarley]

I can provide two solid reasons why the Valley segement for the Los Angeles to San Francisco section was selected first, and not Los Angeles to San Diego.

1) The Valley provides a nice long straight and flat stretch of land to provide a test track. Mile for mile, it should also be cheaper. And, provide more options for a less costly maintenance and storage facility. A test track is ncessary for testing vehicles and burning them in, which is required before vehicles go into service. Each vehicles needs to be tested up to the planned top speed before they are 'commissioned' and go into service.

2) The Valley is in the center of the State and center of the planned system. It provides both geographic and political equity. Neither SoCal or NorCal is first... and being in the Valley provides the opportunity for political support for each end of the system to support double-ended extensions if pursued at the same time.

Yes, I agree LA to San Diego provides a logical answer if ridership alone were considered. But after taking other things into consideration, the Valley has a lot of merit too. Plus, San Diego really has not done itself any favors for earning consideration, has it? San Diego has not given the project more than luke-warm reception (routed miles inland versus the shorter coastal route), and, the answer for a terminal station is at Lindbergh Field - a location that does not get to downtown and has zero synergy with air travel into San Diego.

[bmfarley]

Also, what do you all think about this article?

The idea has no legs. The State and population is behind this project. A vocal minority is just that... vocal. Granted, some critical light on some of the project elements is needed... , but, does not make the project fatally flawed. The article is basically like many - the author clearly does not understand the project or its history and is also trying to match apples with oranges. Many politicians don't understand this project too. And, the LAO's office doesn't help either - no understanding of transportation systems and has no long term vision.

I think 90% of the problem with the project is poor perception developed from the miniscule public outreach and planning efforts in the early years of the project. The CHSRA has come off looking dumb or clumsy or stubborn. But, the CHSRA shouldn't be faulted too much. Why? Because the State legislature has not fully funded them for the planning phases. And, both progress and outreach have been hurt. For many years, as few as 5-7 State employees were actually employed by the State on this project... the rest being contracted out. Tell me.. how can 7 employees effectively manage so many contractors, or, the multiple and dollar laden contracts? Pffff... I say the State Legislator is the first party that has goofed on this project.

From a more macro perspective, a few essential things need to be taken into consideration before coming to any conclusions on the need for this project. First, the State is expected to grow from 39 million to 60 million by 2050. Statewide travel demand is expected to grow proprtionally. Less room is available for building freeways and airport expansions. Secondly, if there were room, the cost would be x2 to x3 times the cost of a more effecient high speed rail system. Thirdly, continuing to build roadways does nothing to wean ourselves away from our dependence on oil; which hurts the environment and sends American dollars out of this country to places that are hostile to us. We are also spending American blood to defend those same oil supply lines. Does this make any sense at all?

[staplesla]

In San Diego they want to build wings, in St. Petersburg it's a Big Wave.

http://inhabitat.com/big-makes-a-splash-with-sweeping-wave-shaped-pier-for-st-petersburg/

[tua21506]

I don't know if this is the right place to ask but, I will be coming to your city this month. I was wondering if anyone had any recommendations for things to do or places/neighborhoods to photograph. Any help or advice would be much appreciated. Again sorry if this is the wrong place to ask.

[LosAngelesDreamin]

I don't understand why they aren't focusing on SD-LA first. It seems to me if they are truly looking to alleviate traffic HSR would be another alternative for an area that is already congested, and between California's two most populous cities. People routinely travel between LA-SD in large numbers, not between SF-LA. A starter line down here would cost less, and could be built faster.

I agree... the bay area doesn't really need a high speed train because their cities are so close to each other.. the BART will take care of all that... as for SoCal?? more than half of CA's population live down here.. we need a new way to move the people faster and obviously expanding our highways isn't doing any help and won't in the future, adding more airport gates and runways to LAX and SAN will cost a lot more i would think. none have worked or will... HSR is proven and it works... just look at other countries in Asia and Europe. America is going down the pipe.. we're stuck in the 70's.. we think we're still on top of the game with our "American Invented" automobiles, highways and our suburbs. Not a good quality of life at all. We need to switch back to rail.. after all thats what jump started most cities.. with the streetcars, trains and grand stations.

[ElDuderino]

I agree... the bay area doesn't really need a high speed train because their cities are so close to each other.. the BART will take care of all that... as for SoCal?? more than half of CA's population live down here.. we need a new way to move the people faster and obviously expanding our highways isn't doing any help and won't in the future, adding more airport gates and runways to LAX and SAN will cost a lot more i would think. none have worked or will... HSR is proven and it works... just look at other countries in Asia and Europe. America is going down the pipe.. we're stuck in the 70's.. we think we're still on top of the game with our "American Invented" automobiles, highways and our suburbs. Not a good quality of life at all. We need to switch back to rail.. after all thats what jump started most cities.. with the streetcars, trains and grand stations.

That really doesn't make any sense at all. The Bay Area and LA are California's two largest population centers. Millions of people travel between the two each year, many do it multiple times. The whole point of the HSR is to link the two area to relieve future traffic and to give people an alternative to flying. HSR is not meant to be a commuter rail like BART. It just provides quick transportation between the major population centers. It would be nice to eventually have HSR between LA and SD, but it makes no sense to build that before LA to SF.

[kpexpress]

I agree. I think its interesting that a lot of people who call themselves progressive, champions of changing this city's image as a backwater navy town hell-bent on maintaining our second tier status, are so ready to shoot down this proposal. I mean, I understand function. But does art have to serve some sort of purpose other then being art? Can art and architecture not be one and the same thing? Yeah I get it, its tall, and a sculpture, but come on, its as if the park, the amphitheater, and the parking that are a part of this project aren't enough. Give these people a break! At least they are trying to build something iconic instead of festering in the NIMBYism that has kept this city just above Tuscan in terms of grandeur (no offense to Tuscan).

I'm not saying we need a Sydney Opera House, or an Eiffel tower. But the hate for this piece is so reminiscent of the little-thinking's, small-town lovers who have kept San Diego down for decades.

Lets be a little more constructive.

After reading this forum these past few days I can see why we have been in the halls of San Jose and Tampa Bay...

I'm all about pushing the boundaries and changing the city, some might say a target would go well there too. I think these wings are ugly and cheesy. They're completely blown out of scale, have no details, oh and DO NOTHING. Let's do something that will bring people to the waterfront like a sick museum like Oslo. We need progressive architecture that draws people to the city. We need a renewed Horton Plaza effect, and these wings won't do it. Look at yokohama, copenhagen, guangzhou, and shanghai. Legitimizing the wings post-rationalizing an antenna scheme is dumb. If we're going to do an antenna, then cool, let's do a sick-ass antenna with observation and lights....something that can be used as a celebration (I always see fireworks on the water in the summer). I think that whatever goes on that site must be part of a larger idea with the whole waterfront and city and it has to be super bold (big name designers). I am in SFO about to board my plane back to SD - I just spent a week in Beijing for work - I don't know why we're so afraid of doing some crazy amazing shit.

[mongoXZ]

LOL! This Wings of Freedom debate has somehow drifted into the US Cities discussions. http://forum.skyscraperpage.com/showthread.php?t=195811

As for me I'd like it for one minute and hate it the next. Kinda torn. I like the fact that it has gotten some attention throwing many into debate. Maybe a totally revamped design will come into fruition and maybe at a different location. The general consensus seems to be that it's a decent start, it reminds some of Milwaukee's "wings", and please don't call it WOF. . .

[laguna]

That really doesn't make any sense at all. The Bay Area and LA are California's two largest population centers. Millions of people travel between the two each year, many do it multiple times. The whole point of the HSR is to link the two area to relieve future traffic and to give people an alternative to flying. HSR is not meant to be a commuter rail like BART. It just provides quick transportation between the major population centers. It would be nice to eventually have HSR between LA and SD, but it makes no sense to build that before LA to SF.

In case you just woke up from sleeping in your city college urban planning class, there is a train called Amtrak that travels from L.A. to the Bay Area.

Nobody rides it and it is heavily subsidized. The track was laid over a 100 years ago when land was cheap. I know that cost doesnt bother you dreamers but consider the cost of land, relocation and legal problems that would ensue today. In end you are left with a mode of transportation that people would not use. Planes are faster and cars are more convenient for the others.

I took Amtrak last year to SLO (thats San Luis Obisbo to you) and the train was a quaint and solitary experience, since it was practically empty. you probably forgot that trains stops at each town to board passengers, which makes it slow, just like the high speed train will be. You probably think it is going to zoom along at high speed from SoCal to Nocal-it doesnt work that way in the real world, unless you think nobody gets on or off along the way. You probably think that if it does stop tht it will just be for a moment like the Red Trolley. You probably forgot that each stop will require on and off loading of bags/passengers and that takes time.

[202_Cyclist]

laguna:
In case you just woke up from sleeping in your city college urban planning class, there is a train called Amtrak that travels from L.A. to the Bay Area.

Nobody rides it and it is heavily subsidized. The track was laid over a 100 years ago when land was cheap. I know that cost doesnt bother you dreamers but consider the cost of land, relocation and legal problems that would ensue today. In end you are left with a mode of transportation that people would not use. Planes are faster and cars are more convenient for the others.

I took Amtrak last year to SLO (thats San Luis Obisbo to you) and the train was a quaint and solitary experience, since it was practically empty. you probably forgot that trains stops at each town to board passengers, which makes it slow, just like the high speed train will be. You probably think it is going to zoom along at high speed from SoCal to Nocal-it doesnt work that way in the real world, unless you think nobody gets on or off along the way. You probably think that if it does stop tht it will just be for a moment like the Red Trolley. You probably forgot that each stop will require on and off loading of bags/passengers and that takes time.


First, if you're going to question the intelligence of someone, at least get your spelling right (San Luis Obisbo--?).

Second, roads are also heavily subsidized. The federal highway trust fund has needed to be bailed out with $7B - $8B from the general fund each of the past four years (i.e. a subsidy for driving). User fees also barely pay for more than half of the cost of federally-funded roads (http://subsidyscope.org/transportation/direct-expenditures/highways/funding/analysis/), meaning roads and driving are heavily subsidized. It is even worse with state and local roads, which are often paid for by property taxes, sales taxes, bonds, development impact fees, or other financing methods that have nothing to do with driving and are thus a subsidy for automobiles.

Third, if nobody rides Amtrak, why has Amtrak set ridership records every month for nearly the past two years? Ridership was up on Amtrak almost six percent last year, while vehicle miles traveled decreased by 1.7%. Just recently, Amtrak set another ridership record over the Thanksgiving weekend, with more than 720,000 passengers (http://thehill.com/blogs/transportation-report/railroads/196295-amtrak-touts-thanksgiving-ridership-numbers/). The Pacific Surfliner route, connecting LA and San Diego is also Amtrak's second busiest route, outside of the Northeast corridor.

Let's also not forget that federal transportation policy and funding is tilted heavily against passenger rail. Last year, more federal money was spent on highways than has been spent on Amtrak during its entire 40 year history combined.

Who needs facts, however, when you have your ideology.

[IconRPCV]

I would also recommend North Park - still kind of gritty, but definitely some cool art venues and a good vibe.

Don't forget Southpark and Kengsington.

[ElDuderino]

In case you just woke up from sleeping in your city college urban planning class, there is a train called Amtrak that travels from L.A. to the Bay Area.

Nobody rides it and it is heavily subsidized. The track was laid over a 100 years ago when land was cheap. I know that cost doesnt bother you dreamers but consider the cost of land, relocation and legal problems that would ensue today. In end you are left with a mode of transportation that people would not use. Planes are faster and cars are more convenient for the others.

I took Amtrak last year to SLO (thats San Luis Obisbo to you) and the train was a quaint and solitary experience, since it was practically empty. you probably forgot that trains stops at each town to board passengers, which makes it slow, just like the high speed train will be. You probably think it is going to zoom along at high speed from SoCal to Nocal-it doesnt work that way in the real world, unless you think nobody gets on or off along the way. You probably think that if it does stop tht it will just be for a moment like the Red Trolley. You probably forgot that each stop will require on and off loading of bags/passengers and that takes time.

I actually graduated from Stanford, and I am a city planner, but good guess ;). I used to take Amtrak quite often to travel down to Santa Barbara and LA. It would consistently take 12-13 hours for the trip. That's not because of the stops (it would only stop for a few minutes) it was because the trains were so damn slow, especially though SLO.

The HSR will make a longer trip from SF to LA in under three hours, and that's taking the stops into consideration. I would much rather make that trip than a 13 hour Amtrak ride, or a LAX nightmare which takes much longer considering the drive, parking and security.

I have ridden on many HSR trains in Italy, France and Germany, and they all work great. The train only stops for a few minutes at each station for unloading, and in California we are only talking about a few stops in between the two metro areas. It is not making the laundry list of stops that the archaic Amtrak system does.

Oh, and in case you just woke up from sleeping in your city college urban planning class, there is a train called Amtrak that travels from L.A. to San Diego. It's called Pacific Surfliner...you should look into it.

[tdavis]

Since we've been on the topic of signature buildings/projects, I thought I'd share this. It looks like a pretty cool set of 40-story bridges that are being built in Dallas.

Dallas Bridge-o-Rama (https://www.facebook.com/empoweringspirits#!/notes/empowering-spirits-foundation/esf-seeks-volunteers-for-dallas-bridge-o-rama/10150576790723942)


http://www.alphatesting.com/assets/images/calatrava%201.JPG

[HurricaneHugo]

That is ugly...our pedestrian bridge is better

[spoonman]

That really doesn't make any sense at all. The Bay Area and LA are California's two largest population centers. Millions of people travel between the two each year, many do it multiple times. The whole point of the HSR is to link the two area to relieve future traffic and to give people an alternative to flying. HSR is not meant to be a commuter rail like BART. It just provides quick transportation between the major population centers. It would be nice to eventually have HSR between LA and SD, but it makes no sense to build that before LA to SF.

This makes no sense. There is much more travel between SD and LA than LA and SF.

First, the 8 lane freeways between SD and LA are constantly clogged with cars.

Second, the Amtrak line in between SD and LA is the 2nd busiest in the US.

Last, this does not even include the Metrolink and Coaster commuter rail connections, which move many more additional passangers DAILY.

This may be the only section that would actually pay for itself, although this would also be at the expense of the current modes of transportation.

[HurricaneHugo]

How does that compare to the LAX-SFO route?

[pesto]

Total traffic between LA and the Bay Area is very small compared to LA and SD. As noted, the North County suburbs have close connections to the Irvine area for employment. There is a massive traffic jam here every morning and evening. Alleviating this, plus getting tourists and visitors to downtown SD or the beaches or to LA would be an immediate and real benefit of HSR.

In general, traffic within the LA/SD region and within the SF/SJ/Sacto region is poor and needs transit to relieve the serious freeway congestion. Relief is needed between LA and the Bay Area. There are 3 major highways that move freely almost all of the time; and 6 major airports in SoCal and 4 in NorCal providing local service. Air beat HSR on speed (cost is irrelevant to business travellers) and cars beat them on cost.

[bmfarley]

Worth repeating. Don't be in denial or delusional.

I can provide two solid reasons why the Valley segement for the Los Angeles to San Francisco section was selected first, and not Los Angeles to San Diego.

1) The Valley provides a nice long straight and flat stretch of land to provide a test track. Mile for mile, it should also be cheaper. And, provide more options for a less costly maintenance and storage facility. A test track is ncessary for testing vehicles and burning them in, which is required before vehicles go into service. Each vehicles needs to be tested up to the planned top speed before they are 'commissioned' and go into service.

2) The Valley is in the center of the State and center of the planned system. It provides both geographic and political equity. Neither SoCal or NorCal is first... and being in the Valley provides the opportunity for political support for each end of the system to support double-ended extensions if pursued at the same time.

Yes, I agree LA to San Diego provides a logical answer if ridership alone were considered. But after taking other things into consideration, the Valley has a lot of merit too. Plus, San Diego really has not done itself any favors for earning consideration, has it? San Diego has not given the project more than luke-warm reception (routed miles inland versus the shorter coastal route), and, the answer for a terminal station is at Lindbergh Field - a location that does not get to downtown and has zero synergy with air travel into San Diego.

[staplesla]

The historic E Street post office downtown could be redeveloped with the addition of a 20-story, apartment tower under plans due soon to the city's Historic Resources Board.

The developer, Pacific Equity Partners of Rancho Santa Fe, is proposing to retain much of the 1930s post office, including its Art Deco facade, and build 360 apartments by the end of 2014 if all goes well, according to the project architects, Eric Davy and Richard Bundy.

Cathy Winterowd, who heads the city's historic review office, said she expects a preliminary review to begin in about two weeks.


http://www.signonsandiego.com/news/2011/dec/06/historic-post-office-proposed-redo-includes-rental/

http://media.signonsandiego.com/img/photos/2011/12/06/postoffice_from_south_t620.bmp?3ba288e077780dca5879b70fc3e0b2d025cf5799

[Derek]

I actually like it.

[tyleraf]

I kinda like it too. It could make a unique addition to the skyline.

[kpexpress]

The historic E Street post office downtown could be redeveloped with the addition of a 20-story, apartment tower under plans due soon to the city's Historic Resources Board.

The developer, Pacific Equity Partners of Rancho Santa Fe, is proposing to retain much of the 1930s post office, including its Art Deco facade, and build 360 apartments by the end of 2014 if all goes well, according to the project architects, Eric Davy and Richard Bundy.

Cathy Winterowd, who heads the city's historic review office, said she expects a preliminary review to begin in about two weeks.


http://www.signonsandiego.com/news/2011/dec/06/historic-post-office-proposed-redo-includes-rental/

http://media.signonsandiego.com/img/photos/2011/12/06/postoffice_from_south_t620.bmp?3ba288e077780dca5879b70fc3e0b2d025cf5799

I think the base, as a first rendition, looks okay. The top of the towers aren't really doing it for me. I wish they weren't so symmetrical and bulky. It's not too elegant. I do like how the colors contrast well with the historic post office facade.

[HurricaneHugo]

Just make it taller.

Boom.

[eburress]

I hate it when buildings get wider towards the top. It almost never works aesthetically. Ughhh.

[mongoXZ]

It's a good infill project regardless of design. It's in a non-prominent, blighted area of the Core. If it has some commercial spaces at ground-level then it's density done well IMO.

[mongoXZ]

Convention center expansion moves forward
The Convention Center expansion is one step closer to becoming a reality after the San Diego City Council approved a plan Tuesday that would require hotel guests to shoulder the bulk of the cost, despite criticisms from some hoteliers that the current setup is unfair.

The council voted 6-2 to create a special financing district that would add up to 3 percent onto the hotel bills for those staying in the city of San Diego. Hotels in downtown would be assessed 3 percent; Mission Valley, Mission Bay and Harbor Island properties would add 2 percent to hotel bills; and all others 1 percent.

http://media.signonsandiego.com/img/photos/2011/09/21/convention-park_r620x349.jpg?75d51d0aea2efce5189afce216053cbc530c46a8
http://www.signonsandiego.com/news/2011/dec/06/convention-center-expansion-moves-forward/

[HurricaneHugo]

What do you guys think of the Civita development?

http://www.signonsandiego.com/news/2011/dec/07/an-open-house-at-civita/

[spoonman]

What do you guys think of the Civita development?

http://www.signonsandiego.com/news/2011/dec/07/an-open-house-at-civita/

I wish this were higher density. Too suburban for MV

[Leo the Dog]

Convention center expansion moves forward
The Convention Center expansion is one step closer to becoming a reality after the San Diego City Council approved a plan Tuesday that would require hotel guests to shoulder the bulk of the cost, despite criticisms from some hoteliers that the current setup is unfair.

The council voted 6-2 to create a special financing district that would add up to 3 percent onto the hotel bills for those staying in the city of San Diego. Hotels in downtown would be assessed 3 percent; Mission Valley, Mission Bay and Harbor Island properties would add 2 percent to hotel bills; and all others 1 percent.

While it's great that the Convention Center expansion is moving forward, it does seem somewhat unfair for hotels to finance this city project even though hotels would benefit from an expanded CC. Everybody (especially bars/restaurants) in SD/DT would benefit from an expanded CC, but hotels are the only ones targeted.

Source: http://www.sandiego.org/article_set/Visitors/6/53
What is the room tax for San Diego Hotels?
The transient occupancy tax (10.5% in the City of San Diego) is a tax primarily used for the purpose of promoting San Diego and is levied on hotel and motel rooms.

Tourism Marketing District (TMD). Effective January 1, 2008, and applicable to properties within the city of San Diego with a minimum of 70 rooms, the TMD will levy a 2% assessment on hotel room nights sold in the city.

Looks like it'll be an additional 3% tax increase. How much is too much?

[mongoXZ]

I just stumbled upon this yearly reader's poll (NOT scientific) from Travel & Leisure. There's a feature where you can pit two cities against each other to see how well they stack up on all the categories. San Diego does pretty well in this with only San Fran, New Orleans, and San Juan PR? doing better.

The usual suspects as to why SD excels in this poll: Best times to visit, Most Beautiful, Athletic people, Best Types of trips, Quality Experience etc etc.

Things SD needs to improve on: Culture and of course Affordability.

http://www.travelandleisure.com/americas-favorite-cities/2011

[LosAngelesDreamin]

What do you guys think of the Civita development?

http://www.signonsandiego.com/news/2011/dec/07/an-open-house-at-civita/

I think mission valley should build taller, no supertalls or anything above 500ft... just a 400ft height limit??... i mean there are only a few tall buildings in the valley, everything else is short and stubby.... imagine driving on the 805 crossing the valley and seeing a skyline between two mountain hills w.e you call it... views would be amazing IMO

why build 3-4 story apts or condos in a spread out horizontal area.. when you can save room and build 20-30 story building... you save room for more development.

[spoonman]

I think mission valley should build taller, no supertalls or anything above 500ft... just a 400ft height limit??... i mean there are only a few tall buildings in the valley, everything else is short and stubby.... imagine driving on the 805 crossing the valley and seeing a skyline between two mountain hills w.e you call it... views would be amazing IMO

why build 3-4 story apts or condos in a spread out horizontal area.. when you can save room and build 20-30 story building... you save room for more development.

There are at least 15 buildings over 10 floors there already. Not saying we can't have more. There are more planned for Hazard Center...two 25-ish floor towers.

[HurricaneHugo]

Stupid valley rim height limit...would be nice to get a 500+ footer anywhere

[SDfan]

Stupid valley rim height limit...would be nice to get a 500+ footer anywhere

Come to think of it, I think every potential high-rise site in this city has a height limit imposed on it. Downtown with Lindbergh, Mission Valley with the rim, west of the I-5 with the 30ft limit, and then UTC has Miramar right next door.

We're screwed.

[spoonman]

Here's the Hazard Center proposal to add two new towers. This got approval last year. Not sure when it is scheduled to break ground.

http://thenewhazardcenter.com/project/proposed.html

[Leo the Dog]

The low-slung design of Civita doesn't bother me too much because it's in the heart of auto-centric MV. I would like to see more TOD around all trolley stops though.

It is just far enough away from both Hazard Center and Rio Vista stops and on the other side of Friars to discourage pedestrian activity.

Imagine the potential Mission Valley has if the two bookends (the Q and Riverwalk) were to ever be demo'd and developed...

[OneMetropolis]

I just stumbled upon this yearly reader's poll (NOT scientific) from Travel & Leisure. There's a feature where you can pit two cities against each other to see how well they stack up on all the categories. San Diego does pretty well in this with only San Fran, New Orleans, and San Juan PR? doing better.

The usual suspects as to why SD excels in this poll: Best times to visit, Most Beautiful, Athletic people, Best Types of trips, Quality Experience etc etc.

Things SD needs to improve on: Culture and of course Affordability.

http://www.travelandleisure.com/americas-favorite-cities/2011


This website is completely bogus. I pitted New York against San Diego, and San Diego won. How is that possible when New York is suppose to be number 1 in everything.

[SDfan]

These visualizations made my mouth drool.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rb5JUtb7T2w&feature=bf_prev&list=PL48F60D6D0829D06D&lf=plpp_video

[OneMetropolis]

These visualizations made my mouth drool.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rb5JUtb7T2w&feature=bf_prev&list=PL48F60D6D0829D06D&lf=plpp_video

Looks better than a mile long slab of gray concrete.

[Derek]

Too bad nothing like that will ever happen.

[LosAngelesDreamin]

These visualizations made my mouth drool.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rb5JUtb7T2w&feature=bf_prev&list=PL48F60D6D0829D06D&lf=plpp_video

niiiice =] i love it!!

[Leo the Dog]

These visualizations made my mouth drool.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rb5JUtb7T2w&feature=bf_prev&list=PL48F60D6D0829D06D&lf=plpp_video

So much potential there.

[staplesla]

The Port of San Diego voted on Tuesday to let Terramar Retail Centers go ahead with a proposal to renovate the old San Diego Police Department station near Seaport Village.

"They have put their own money in and have sought other investors in a $40 million plan to renovate the space inside the old Spanish style station," said Ron Powell, the spokesman for the Port of San Diego.

Powell said the renovation would make the area more attractive to lure restaurateurs and retail stores.

http://www.10news.com/news/29991121/detail.html

[staplesla]

A Superior Court judge proposes to rule against the city Friday on its agreement to eliminate cars and parking from the center of Balboa Park.

Judge Judith F. Hayes issued a tentative ruling Thursday that the memo of understanding (MOU) between the city and the Plaza de Panama Committee, headed by Qualcomm co-founder Irwin Jacobs, is illegal.

A hearing is set for 10:30 a.m. Friday to review the ruling and attorneys for both sides declined comment until the ruling becomes final.

http://www.signonsandiego.com/news/2011/dec/15/court-rule-against-city-balboa-park-agreement/

http://media.signonsandiego.com/img/photos/2011/12/15/plaza-de-panama_overview_10.2011_t620.bmp?3ba288e077780dca5879b70fc3e0b2d025cf5799

[HurricaneHugo]

That's seriously the proposal??

Horrible

On the same subject, has there been any movement on the Zoo's expansion?

Last I heard was that they planned to build an underground parking garage and then expand over the current parking lot

[kpexpress]

That's seriously the proposal??

Horrible

On the same subject, has there been any movement on the Zoo's expansion?

Last I heard was that they planned to build an underground parking garage and then expand over the current parking lot

I've seen these presentations in depth many times. I opposed the Jacob's plan in CCAC, and supported the Precise Plan. The parking garage is behind the organ pavilion (out of sight in the pic here). I think the bridge is awful!

[M II A II R II K]

Website to participate in.

Now through mid-January, San Diegans have a once-in-a-lifetime opportunity to plan for the region’s future. We can weigh in on our priorities, hopes, concerns and aspirations for this wonderful place, and become part of a collective vision and action plan for the future.


http://www.showyourlovesd.org/

[HurricaneHugo]

Does anybody have renderings of City College's new buildings that are going up?

I thought they were just going to be parking garages but when I passed by they said "Math Department building, Humanities, etc;"

[mello]

Can anyone explain how in the hell the Angels got a TV deal from Fox Sports worth about 5 times more than the one the Padres signed with the same network? The LA TV market is about 6 times that of San Diego yet they share it with the Dodgers. So shouldn't they have received 3 times what the Padres got? Is it possible Moorad is lying about the amount of his deal?

[HurricaneHugo]

Does anybody have pictures of the library's construction?

[spoonman]

Does anybody have pictures of the library's construction?

I don't but I know you can find a live feed on CCDC

[S.DviaPhilly]

Does anybody have pictures of the library's construction?

Taken last weekend, 1 more floor to go! (I think)

http://i42.photobucket.com/albums/e338/Spiewak/DSC00737.jpg

[ElDuderino]

Does anybody have pictures of the library's construction?

From embora at SSC http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php?t=431731&page=48

...I took these photos of the new central library on Christmas Day, and will try to take some status photos of other downtown projects, when I get the chance, including City College's expansion.

Here's what the finished library should look like:
http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7162/6585388005_e96cd49eb4.jpg

This is the view from the South, from the intersection of 11th Avenue and Park Blvd, which I think is a ceremonial entrance of sorts:
http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7173/6585388703_fdeff1ea93.jpg

This the view from the southwest, from the corner of K Street and 11th Avenue.
http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7144/6585384323_cf150b68e1.jpg

This a view up 11th Avenue from K St. & 11th Ave. It gives an idea how the new library building relates to the other buildings and spaces on 11th.
http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7165/6585387289_fe07d15bdc.jpg

[HurricaneHugo]

Nice. The dome should definitely stand out in the East Village.

[SDfan]

Well, CCDC is dead.

http://www.sigonsandiego.com/news/2011/dec/29/redevelopment-dead-court-says/

[HurricaneHugo]

Bye bye Chargers... =(

[spoonman]

Knocked Oakland out of the playoffs!

[Leo the Dog]

Raider/Cowboy fans are probably the most annoying in the NFL.

[eburress]

Raider/Cowboy fans are probably the most annoying in the NFL.

Nah, Cowboy fans are lovable. :)

[Derek]

Raiders fans are the most annoying, by far. Nobody else even comes close.



As to CCDC's demise and the Chargers "moving to LA", the last time I checked, the stadium up there is still just drawings on paper at the moment...

[eburress]

Raiders fans are the most annoying, by far. Nobody else even comes close.



As to CCDC's demise and the Chargers "moving to LA", the last time I checked, the stadium up there is still just drawings on paper at the moment...

Yeah, LA is not having any more luck than SD is, which to me is surprising.

[mello]

Well Spanos just killed the very slim chances he had of getting some kind of vote passed to use tax payer money on a new stadium by retaining Turner/Smith. Maybe he knows it would never pass anyway and they will have to circumvent the ballot initiative process. I still don't understand why he doesn't come out and say how much he is willing to put towards a stadium. It makes no sense, let us know what you are working with... Can you put in 400 million, 600 million?

This nebulous idea of "we all need to work together" without publicly stating what you can contribute is never going to work. The maximum amount I see the County/City putting in the pot is 300 to 400 million so Spanos and the NFL Stadium fund will have to come up with the rest.

Regarding the Raiders: Why on earth would they want to stay in the Bay Area and share that market with a 49ers team that is clearly on the rise and will start having a bigger piece of that market. The Raiders are so irrelevant, having not had a winning season in 9 to 10 years now. Why not go to Los Angeles and have that all to yourselves. The Bay is going to become more and more Niner territory as they are looking to be in the playoff hunt for years to come while the Raiders wallow away in mediocrity or worse...

[SDfan]

Nothing we didn't know already:

San Diego's key building projects, 2012-16

http://www.sigonsandiego.com/news/2012/jan/06/134-billion-total/

[SDfan]

Oh yeah, and Fat City update

http://www.utsandiego.com/news/2012/jan/06/deny-fat-city-project-redevelopment-planners-say/

[SDfan]

Whoa, I think the UT changed its URL address.

[HurricaneHugo]

Yeah, LA is not having any more luck than SD is, which to me is surprising.

This article cheered me up.

http://www.latimes.com/sports/la-sp-0105-simers-20120105,0,2537201.column

[HurricaneHugo]

Nothing we didn't know already:

San Diego's key building projects, 2012-16

http://www.sigonsandiego.com/news/2012/jan/06/134-billion-total/

"South Bay Power Plant demoliton."

;)

[HurricaneHugo]

Oh yeah, and Fat City update

http://www.utsandiego.com/news/2012/jan/06/deny-fat-city-project-redevelopment-planners-say/

Better question is why the hell is there industry down there...

[Leo the Dog]

Better question is why the hell is there industry down there...

From the article: http://www.utsandiego.com/news/2012/jan/06/deny-fat-city-project-redevelopment-planners-say/

I can understand why this proposal would get denied.

Solar and its predecessor companies have occupied the port tideland property since 1927.

[Derek]

So their argument is that the residents could sue because of "hazardous chemicals", yet there's been a restaurant operating there for how many years?

[mello]

^^^ Exactly. That is bullsh*t, that project looks really nice. That whole section of Pacific Highway is crap and this would do a lot to improve it. Why not make people who move in there sign something saying that they can't fight the solar turbines air polluting activities? It seems to me there are residences fairly close to the ST plant and everything is fine.

You know what this one is really getting under my skin because in a way that area is kind of San Diego's "Front Porch" as well because it is the first part of the city people drive in to once they arrive at the airport and it really does need a facelift. Why can't common sense prevail here and everyone get together to find a solution instead of canning a really great project?

And it pisses me off that Solar Turbines is essentially holding that area hostage to future development. "Oh you can't build anything near here because we have been operating for years". F**k that!

[HurricaneHugo]

I wouldn't call FC nice...needs some more work.

In the meantime I need to go to Denny's while I still can lol

[kpexpress]

lol sky area with what looks like the moon looks like something out of a syfy movie =] the moon aint that big haha

Veterans Park project will be discussed at tomorrow nights CCAC predesign meeting, held at NSAD (classroom T1) at 5:15pm.

http://www.utsandiego.com/news/2011/nov/08/skyscraper-sized-wings-sculpture-proposed-navy-pie/?page=2#article

[laguna]

^^^ Exactly. That is bullsh*t, that project looks really nice. That whole section of Pacific Highway is crap and this would do a lot to improve it. Why not make people who move in there sign something saying that they can't fight the solar turbines air polluting activities? It seems to me there are residences fairly close to the ST plant and everything is fine.

You know what this one is really getting under my skin because in a way that area is kind of San Diego's "Front Porch" as well because it is the first part of the city people drive in to once they arrive at the airport and it really does need a facelift. Why can't common sense prevail here and everyone get together to find a solution instead of canning a really great project?

And it pisses me off that Solar Turbines is essentially holding that area hostage to future development. "Oh you can't build anything near here because we have been operating for years". F**k that!

Arent you one of those guys who likes all the environmental laws and regulations?

Besides we have enough apartments under construction in Little Italy at the moment (several last count I made). And we certainly have far too many poorly designed and constructed Segal projects in Little Italy now. His idea of a nicely finished project is to use cinder block as a decorative finish material and put the bedrooms on the main as you walk in the door and the kitchen up stairs.

The turbine company has been there since '27 and before that was Ryan Air. I am sure you never heard of it but they build the Spirit of St. Louis (look it up to since I am sure you are not that much a student of history). They provide good jobs for people who believe in work, maybe like somebody you know.