[polishavenger]

I have long been thinking about how the city could rehabilitate the west end where the bus station and car dealerships are. With the west LRT in the works, i think the city has a great chance to make things happen. I have done up a quick and dirty conceptual diagram on microsoft paint. I will be following it up with some more detailed numbers and road layouts. I think this project would probably pay for itself with the land sales, and the added property tax would be a great cash flow. Just for a quick comparable, this area contains 12 - 15 times more land than the old bus barns by eau claire. This means you could put in roughly 9000 - 10000 units in this place.

http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b388/Kosmala/Misc/WestEndRedevelopmentandStreetRealig.jpg

[nasdaq]

Very nice. This is what it looks like right now for comparison.

http://img294.imageshack.us/img294/5518/screenshot0103200710224vw6.png

[SpongeG]

what west end is that?

[nasdaq]

what west end is that?

Calgary. Just west of the downtown core

[mersar]

Calgary

[SpongeG]

ah

[Riise]

Hey Aralaus, I think he forgot your stadium... Good job polish! You did this with paint!?!? For a second there I thought it was real, but I was thinking that the west end doesn't look anything close to this neat.

[Doug]

Great job. I would leave a slightly larger swath of green space along the river and eliminate the ramps off 14th Street.

[big W]

Too bad a new stadium could not fit there as I think it would be nice for you guys to have the new McMahon there and give the Stamps their own home.

[polishavenger]

I think riverfront/adjacent property is too valuable and limited to use as a stadium space. I can picture this neighbourhood like a much larger version of what anthem/exchange/keynote and Arriva will create in their respective developments. I think a line of 4-8 storey midrises along the river with a retail promenade would be fantastic. I toyed with the idea of creating a linear park on the south side of the CPR tracks, and then running up the middle to connect to the river.

When I get my hands on a copy of photoshop, I will try to make this prettier.

As far as eliminating the 14th Street ramps, I thought about it, but I think they need to stay. They add a needed connection of that route into and out of the core.

[polishavenger]

dp.

[Wooster]

Here was my idea from a while back. I'd like to see a bit more park space than what polishavenger is proposing. Except push bow trail south like he has.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v311/joshwhit/development/westpark-1.jpg

[Calgarian]

I think a riverfront promenade would breathe some much needed life into downtown after buisness hours.

[polishavenger]

Park space is important, but cant be the majority of the space. I estimated fewer condo units than what probably can be put in that space to account for more park area. If you use the Eau Claire project as a benchmark, the same area as that lot can fit about 12 times into the west end. That means around 12000 units. If you add more park space, that comes down to about 8000 units. Plus, I think a park that disects the area north south and connects the river bank to a new linear park along the south of the CPR tracks would be better because you use land that is less desirable for living and improve it, rather than taking away very attractive residential space.

The whole thing has to have enough value from re-sale of land and future property taxes to justify the several hundred million required to make it happen. I will put together a more detailed plan, and estimate some actual density figures and a cost estimate.

[niwell]

^I agree about having too much park space. However, in reality a project of this nature is unlikely to go through without huge amounts of parkland. That seems to be par for the course now. I do like the idea of linear parks that go through the neighbourhood. That would allow for connectivity between areas and allow for parks that area actually used by residents.

[CorporateWhore]

so where is the c-train station in there? if you want to insert 12,000 units in such a small area, there better be a train station right in the midst of it all (and not something where you have to walk half a mile over to. We need to start creating station right in the mids of the action, not adjacent to it.

[polishavenger]

There is a C-train station planned in the west leg alignment to go right in the centre of the image. When I do a better rendition of this image, I will put in where the station would go best. I think it should be designed to be a centre of activity for the neighbourhood, with great connections over the roadways to the south and north portions of the neighbourhoods. I would also think that the linear park/a retail boulevard should head north from the station.

[niwell]

Here's a super quick paint job I did for what I'd like to see on the site. Get rid of the 14th st. interchange as much as possible to allow access from the East. Extend 17th st. north into the site, and have it as a wide boulevard with central park. Retail podiums can line this boulevard and extend a few blocks along the riverfront road as well (shown in pink). Height is maximized to the south of the site, while the river fronting buildings should be no more than 5 or 6 stories. There are 3 major linear parks, one at the south, one fronting the river and the one in the centre of the boulevard. Smaller parks link these mid-block for connectivity. And the LRT station is where 17th st. enters the site. Not too sure how this would pan out, there'd have to be some interesting grade seperation to make it work, perhaps have bow trail run below grade in a trench?

http://www.nickwellington.com/public_html/westend%20copy.jpg

[Lee_Haber8]

I think making those pseudo-freeways into regular arterial streets has to be part of any redevelopment plan. Get rid of that interchange!

[Wooster]

I think making those pseudo-freeways into regular arterial streets has to be part of any redevelopment plan. Get rid of that interchange!

Agreed. In regard to the open space. I do think at least something big enough to be able to toss a frisbee or play a game of soccer is necessary. Linear paths are nice, but don't leave very many options for active recreation. I think that is important too.

[polishavenger]

I cant agree with the removal of the 14th street interchange. I think it would cause too much of a traffic head ache, especially with a future LRT line going through the area.

[CorporateWhore]

I cant agree with the removal of the 14th street interchange. I think it would cause too much of a traffic head ache, especially with a future LRT line going through the area.

yep, with you on this one as well. im not a "build more roads" guy by any means, but i think taking out the interchange will just lead to more stalled cars, clogging up the streets and polluting the air. arterial roads are called that for a reason...they need to move traffic in a pretty continous pace....clogging them up even more will only lead to a stroke.

besides, those interchanges arent huge behemoths anyway, they can be worked into a streetscape. stick a around building in the middle!

[Doug]

The ramps off 14th could be reconfigured to take up less space - ex. more of a diamond configuration vs. cloverleaf.

[polishavenger]

The ramps off 14th could be reconfigured to take up less space - ex. more of a diamond configuration vs. cloverleaf.

Reconfiguring might be a good idea, but I would have to see a real benefit to justify the cost and inconvenience of the work that would be required. The set up I suggest doesnt involve anything other than building a new flyover for bow trail west bound, and some new bridges over 14th for the c-train (sunk cost that will be incurred one way or the other) and bow trail east bound. All that could be done without disruptions to traffic.

[niwell]

Agreed. In regard to the open space. I do think at least something big enough to be able to toss a frisbee or play a game of soccer is necessary. Linear paths are nice, but don't leave very many options for active recreation. I think that is important too.

I agree that there should be such an area, but not as a focal point to a community. All too often such sites are empty 75% of the time. A small square or central park is more fitting in my mind, something about the size of a small city block. The larger fields can be beside the river or on the outer edges.

[Surrealplaces]

I like Polish's plan. Whatever we do, we need to get rid of those 'pseudo freeways' no question, and take out the bus depot. It's such a useless set up anyway.

The only thing I would do differently is have the parkland strip along the river a bit slimmer and have the road fronting the condos wider, with a tree lined boulevard. Have a central are park that borders along Bow Trail.

Great Job Polish.

[unibrain]

I'd like to see that plan swing into action.. it would bring nice density to the otherwise traffic and non-residential west riverbank.

However, the possibility of GSL Chevy moving are slim. The City could potentially expropriate part of the property, but being that GSL just did some major renovations to their building, it's unlikely they'll be moving any time soon..

Renfew Chrysler on the other hand, albeit some new renovations, the land is actually owned by the City. I believe there is a potential for a new ramp to get onto crowchild in the future, plus the addition of a ctrain bridge up alongside the bow trail bridge. This lrt leg will probably run beside the greyhound station, and then through, or beside the used car lot portion of GSL chevy.

[polishavenger]

The public good that could be achieved through reclaiming this part of downtown for better uses far outweighs personal interests of the land owners in this part of town. As a last resort, expropriation is in my opinion a legitimate option.

[shappy]

interesting stuff. Is the city currently planning on doing something with this part of town or are you guys just having fun?

Hope you guys don't mind but I thought I'd post some images from a PDF of the West Donlands development in Toronto. It actually has some interesting similarities to the West End like the interchange/on-ramp, the river and the compact land area. This part of town is currently an industrial wasteland. Site prep has actually started on this development. Also a international design competition has been recently announced.

Anyway, here are the images. I think this plan is excellent and perhaps Calgary can do something similar...

a rendering of the West Donlands (the Don River is just below the park)
http://img99.imageshack.us/img99/4294/westd1ih4.jpg

building heights and massing
http://img340.imageshack.us/img340/4046/westd2gw4.jpg

renderings of the various mini-neighbourhoods that would make up the development
http://img159.imageshack.us/img159/8486/westd3db4.jpg

[tokama]

^Wow. That is very nice. I like the use of lower towers to create an almost "european" type look and feel.

Polish - would your plan extend all the way to Crowchild Trail?

[mersar]

The area will be undergoing some changes in the near future due to the LRT line, which may facilitate needing to realign Bow Trail and its connecting roads (which like the LRT itself was originally planned for 20+ years ago). Nothing as drastic as what we're talking here, but its nice to dream of how things could be a perfect world.

[Boris2k7]

I have been starting my own model in Sketchup... note: none of the streets are quite straight... it's more of a quick mock-up... :)

http://img263.imageshack.us/img263/199/westend01bv1.jpg

I'll be continuing to work on this for a few days...

[Surrealplaces]

interesting stuff. Is the city currently planning on doing something with this part of town or are you guys just having fun?

Hope you guys don't mind but I thought I'd post some images from a PDF of the West Donlands development in Toronto. It actually has some interesting similarities to the West End like the interchange/on-ramp, the river and the compact land area. This part of town is currently an industrial wasteland. Site prep has actually started on this development. Also a international design competition has been recently announced.

Anyway, here are the images. I think this plan is excellent and perhaps Calgary can do something similar...



Looks like a good plan. It would be great if Calgary could do something along those lines. Thanks for the input.

I see you're a Ricky Gervais fan. I take it you've watched the British version of 'The Office'?

[Wooster]

interesting stuff. Is the city currently planning on doing something with this part of town or are you guys just having fun?

Hope you guys don't mind but I thought I'd post some images from a PDF of the West Donlands development in Toronto. It actually has some interesting similarities to the West End like the interchange/on-ramp, the river and the compact land area. This part of town is currently an industrial wasteland. Site prep has actually started on this development. Also a international design competition has been recently announced.

Anyway, here are the images. I think this plan is excellent and perhaps Calgary can do something similar...

a rendering of the West Donlands (the Don River is just below the park)
http://img99.imageshack.us/img99/4294/westd1ih4.jpg

building heights and massing
http://img340.imageshack.us/img340/4046/westd2gw4.jpg

renderings of the various mini-neighbourhoods that would make up the development
http://img159.imageshack.us/img159/8486/westd3db4.jpg

That is a great comparison. you are right it does have a similar kind of context. I'd love to see something similar for the West end area in Calgary.

[CorporateWhore]

Is it too early to bulldoze the west end and start over again? Those condos sure helped start a revolution, but damn, they that area is too good to just leave it filled with that crap.

[Lee_Haber8]

yep, with you on this one as well. im not a "build more roads" guy by any means, but i think taking out the interchange will just lead to more stalled cars, clogging up the streets and polluting the air. arterial roads are called that for a reason...they need to move traffic in a pretty continous pace....clogging them up even more will only lead to a stroke.

besides, those interchanges arent huge behemoths anyway, they can be worked into a streetscape. stick a around building in the middle!

Slowign down cars will reduce the demand to use them, fewer people will drive and there will actually be less pollution. Besides, I thought we planned for pedestrians first and then cars? You can not make an interchange fit into a streetscape.

[shappy]

I see you're a Ricky Gervais fan. I take it you've watched the British version of 'The Office'?

yes, I certainly have (I own the DVD). I'm a big fan... the guy is a genius. Extras is also excellent.

[CorporateWhore]

Slowign down cars will reduce the demand to use them, fewer people will drive and there will actually be less pollution. Besides, I thought we planned for pedestrians first and then cars? You can not make an interchange fit into a streetscape.

Ah, so we are going to go down the "let's force people into changing" route again? Yeah, that always creates happy citizens who love coming into the inner city.

Face it guys, you can't just completely create chaos for cars and think that it will magically turn Calgary into this walkable superland. There will always be a need for private transportation in the city (even in the most walkable cities, decent arterial routes are always needed to move goods and services around), so there has to be a wholistic approach to city planning that mixes both public and private transit. Shifting the majority of resources to transit is fine, but don't go out and blatantly try to make life worse for people.

Maintaining a road on 14th street that hundreds of thousands of people use is not the problem. Wasting money on roads way out in the fuck of Tuscany that about 50 people use, is. Sprawl is a much bigger detriment to pedestrian friendliness than making sure that there is decent flow in a medium sized arterial road in the inner city.

[jeffwhit]

I would like to see some improvement with the 14th St Intersection, it think it could take up less overall space with a more efficient layout.
As for all that land, I'd actually like to see a major park, fully landscaped with a band shell/amphitheatre and something like a Children's Museum. Line it on the south side with mixed use buildings and connect it to Millennium Park over 14th. As part of this I'd also like to do something about encouraging Development on the south side of Bow trail and creating connections over Bow Trail.

I don't like Polish's facts regarding this.. but I'm wondering, what would the minimum amount of residential needed to make this all viable?

[polishavenger]

I think the plan from Toronto is a great comparison except that I would like to see more density. I think what the city has on the go for the East Village is more comparable to what should happen in the west end.

[polishavenger]

Just for rough Estimation

East Village Area bound by 3rd st East and 6th Street E, and 9th Ave S and 5th Ave S is about 202,500 square meters.

The approximate area of the west end we are discussing is 213,408 square meters. Take out space for park area, and the two areas are similar in size, so that gives you an approximate number of units, and general density needed to achieve them. We need similar density, maybe higher in parts to the East Village to make the west end really work in my opinion.

I suggest we get a charet together amongst those interested to fine tune the concept, get real numbers together with potential market value, and put a report together to present to some Alderman. Any takers? It would be great to have people with greater software skills than I to make it look all pretty.

[Wooster]

I really like the idea of a charrette. It is good to be proactive and get people thinking about an idea. I know as part of the centre city plan they are looking for these kinds of initiatives to happen out there. Although this area is outside the centre city boundaries, it does touch on it. Here was a concept they came up with. They really focus on the Park as the primary use though.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v311/joshwhit/development/centrecity2.jpg

[Lee_Haber8]

Ah, so we are going to go down the "let's force people into changing" route again? Yeah, that always creates happy citizens who love coming into the inner city.

Face it guys, you can't just completely create chaos for cars and think that it will magically turn Calgary into this walkable superland. There will always be a need for private transportation in the city (even in the most walkable cities, decent arterial routes are always needed to move goods and services around), so there has to be a wholistic approach to city planning that mixes both public and private transit. Shifting the majority of resources to transit is fine, but don't go out and blatantly try to make life worse for people.

Maintaining a road on 14th street that hundreds of thousands of people use is not the problem. Wasting money on roads way out in the fuck of Tuscany that about 50 people use, is. Sprawl is a much bigger detriment to pedestrian friendliness than making sure that there is decent flow in a medium sized arterial road in the inner city.

People will only change their behavior when the costs shift. Right now it is very convenient to drive in Calgary in this area and not very convenient to walk because of this interchange. I also don't see how making a simple intersection makes things more chaotic, if anything it makes things simpler albeit slower. The fact is you can't make a place ideal for driving and for walking - you have to choose one or the other

[Riise]

^Wow. That is very nice. I like the use of lower towers to create an almost "european" type look and feel.

I totally know what you mean! When I looked at the image with the caption "Don River Park" I thought it looked like a redevelopment plan for Amsterdam.

[frinkprof]

A few questions/comments.

Where does the Greyhound Station move to? I think it is in the plans to become a part of the transit hub on 2nd St. downtown with some underground parking. If I am wrong, then I think it should go there or closeby. Also, trips inbound from the south currently stop at Anderson Station before going to the downtown. I think that they should improve the Greyhound "facilities" at Anderson (currently only a standard looking glass shelter) and also have trips from the north, east, and west stop at LRT stations before heading into downtown, again with some better facilities. Nothing too big but enough to make it a little more convenient to board/disembark there. Then there wouldn't be as much pressure on the downtown station, where ever it might end up.

Onto the development proposed by polishavenger and modified by others. I think there should be some sort of urban grocery store similar to the Safeway in Kensington. It should be within a minute's walking distance from the LRT. If you are going to build an urban community like this between the interchanges of Crowchild and 14th Street, then it needs to have some local services like this otherwise everyone will have to leave in their car in order to live day-to-day.

There should also be a couple pedestrian links over Bow Trail from the south to better link the development to surrounding communities since it is rather constrained pedestrian-wise by the 14th Street interchange and the Crowchild interchange. The thought of a pedestrian link over the river also crossed my mind, but I'm not sure if it should be included or where.

Also, aside from the parks, I think there needs to be some specialty shops to draw people into the area and be a destination, although many of you have accounted for this in your retail proposals.

The other thing that I wanted to mention is that there should be provision for some public art pieces, some of which should be visible from the LRT and Bow Trail, and others which are visible from the other side of the river and 14th Street.

Great ideas so far by everyone.

[Wooster]

There should also be a couple pedestrian links over Bow Trail from the south to better link the development to surrounding communities since it is rather constrained pedestrian-wise by the 14th Street interchange and the Crowchild interchange. The thought of a pedestrian link over the river also crossed my mind, but I'm not sure if it should be included or where.


This would be the natural location for one, connecting to the existing one over memorial Dr. Maybe one more further east?

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v311/joshwhit/development/Bridge.jpg

Something like this?

http://www.makingthemodernworld.org.uk/learning_modules/maths/02.TU.03/img/IM.1507_el.jpg

[polishavenger]

In my more detailed plan (should be ready soon), I have put in a linear park heading north towards the river. At the north end, it has a large public plaza. The entire length of this park is bordered by high density development with a retail and office component on the first two floors. This would probably be the best spot for an urban grocery store. The c-train station would be on the south end of this linear park providing a pedestrian access to the south side of bow trail. On the south end of bow trail i have a linear park running west to east. Every third street has an underpass to link the north with the south, and along with that would be pedestrian links. A river crossing already exists under crowchild trail and along 14th street, so an additional one would be redundant.

I envision a promenade along the river with buildings ranging from 6 - 8 storeys (similar massing to princeton, which i believe has 4 - 6 floors) which have retail on the bottom, and some townhouses.

[polishavenger]

i was also thinking the greyhound station could be relocated into the Inglewood area (the idustrial end) where the future S.E lrt will go. There is some land out there that needs some help to get things developed, and the access is close to deerfoot, so it would be easy for the busses.

[YYCguys]

i was also thinking the greyhound station could be relocated into the Inglewood area (the idustrial end) where the future S.E lrt will go. There is some land out there that needs some help to get things developed, and the access is close to deerfoot, so it would be easy for the busses.

The Greyhound Station could be adjacent to the BarlowMaxBell LRT Station. Quick access to any LRT route from there and into downtown.

The old Science Centre would be a great location for a relocated Glenbow Museum and/or an art gallery.

And in my own little dream world, the Mewata Armouries building would make a great hotel and/or condo tower buildiing (London, ON has turned their Armouries building into a hotel...pretty neat!).

[Aralaus]

I am still championing the idea of an urban stadium... you could put parking levels directly under the stadium (you could even put the LRT directly under it or adjacent *thumbs up*)... you could even have outdoor concerts by getting out of the neighborhood of the sound nazi's... :P

BUT, that being said.. if no stadium is forthcoming, my only wish for the area is not to have the LRT adjacent to Bow Trail... most area's in the city are killed for T.O.D.s because the train runs along these major thoroughfares, and the sound and physical barrier of an active highway dissuade people from developing the T.O.D. idea... Instead i would like to see the LRT alignment further north in the heart of the development, with little/no park'n'ride facilities, because that close to the core we shouldn't need it (look at Bridgeland concept, no park'n'ride). Instead, put the LRT alignment between lots (like an alleyway) so that it minimizes interference with cars and pedestrians.. it could even give it a "tram" feel, definately in line with the euro-style we all seem to favor here...

just my two cents, now the rest of you can shred away at my idea... :P