[liferanger]

Below is a link to Alberta transportations plans for a full free flow freeway, 6 lanes with another 4-6 collector lanes on the sides making it look like about 12 lanes around downtown McMurray.....pretty impressive for a city under 100,000. This is about 15 MB to download

http://www.infratrans.gov.ab.ca/INFTRA_Content/docType140/Production/proposedfwyplan.pdf

[vid]

Is that six lanes the entire distance or just an urban expressway? If so, that's a bit excessive, although with mining trucks and whatnot it may be necessary.

We have a four lane here and it's fine, about 85% capacity, and we've got 120K.

[big W]

I did not see the plans but what a joke our provincial government is. Lets have them do this for the Yellowhead in Edmonton and 16th ave in Calgary. Those are transcanadas and not built to this standard and neither are the ring roads they just built.

[SHOFEAR]

Is anybody having a hard time stomaching the money the provincial government is planning on spending in Fort Mac? I question what Fort Mac will be like in 25 years and if it is smart to invest in it...especially when Edmonton and Calgary could use the infrastructure money.

[Boris2k7]

It IS a disproportionate share... but does that also reflect just how bad the infrastructure there is? Is it so far behind other cities that it warrants it? You are correct to bring up long-term sustainability, but what if Fort Mac's population simply plateaus and stays there, wouldn't the population need at least the amount the government is putting in now?

Of course, I am completely opposed to these kinds of roads around a town of that size, or of any size for that matter. I think that one of the things dragging down the current government is that they lack a vision of sustainability, not only in urban form and the environment but also in transportation. We should be seeing expansions of LRT, BRT, and the reimplementation of streetcars, as well as feeder buses for these systems. Instead we are getting ring roads and expressways. Notwithstanding these concerns, I would probably agree that such roads are almost necessary for the heavy truck traffic, but is any of that traffic actually going to Fort Mac itself?!?

[SHOFEAR]

but what if Fort Mac's population simply plateaus and stays there, wouldn't the population need at least the amount the government is putting in now?

Thats the million dollar question.

[vid]

It probably won't stay. Usually when you get into a bust period it will drop 7-12% or so, but the infrastructure is still needed, because the adult population stays about the same, at least that's what we're experiencing here.

[Calgarian]

With Shell and Syncrude trying to outdo eachother all the time, Fort mac will keep growing. I figure it will "plateau" at around 200 000 people.

[liferanger]

that is six lanes the entire length with collector one way roads running along the majority of the route through DT....this brings it up to 10-12 lanes in some places....

[feepa]

It probably won't stay. Usually when you get into a bust period it will drop 7-12% or so, but the infrastructure is still needed, because the adult population stays about the same, at least that's what we're experiencing here.

You can't really compare Fort MacMurray to Thunder Bay or really any town/city.

Every other weekend, I bet the population of Fort Macmurray and surrounding work camps probably drops by 20,000+ if not significantly more as they head back to Edmonton and other places around Canada. The workforce up there is very migratory, and fluctuates alot. I wonder what the permanent population of Fort MacMurray is. The only highway (63) that goes between all the projects up there and between Edmonton is super clogged with buses, semis with huge loads, trucks, SUVs and the occasional car. The demand for this type of highway versus the demand in a similar population sized city such as Thunder Bay is not even comparable.

[feepa]

that is six lanes the entire length with collector one way roads running along the majority of the route through DT....this brings it up to 10-12 lanes in some places....
You dont count the side collector roads (or as I would call long on/off ramps) in this case really? If you do, then Edmonton has a 12 lane freeway as well (whitemud between 99st - 111 st)

[ReginaGuy]

When oil prices drop low enough, Calgary and Edmonton will continue to grow, but fort mac will become a ghost town, there's no doubt about it. From what I've heard, a huge chunk of Fort Mac's population only plans on living there temporarily, and the economy is almost completely reliant on the oil sands.

Also, there's nothing better than having a 12 lane freeway cutting through your downtown. :rolleyes:

[feepa]

When oil prices drop low enough, Calgary and Edmonton will continue to grow, but fort mac will become a ghost town, there's no doubt about it. From what I've heard, a huge chunk of Fort Mac's population only plans on living there temporarily, and the economy is almost completely reliant on the oil sands.

Also, there's nothing better than having a 12 lane freeway cutting through your downtown. :rolleyes:
Its not really cutting through their downtown, as theres already an existing highway there..

I wonder how much of Fort Macmurrays housing is permanent versus temporary (mobile homes, work camps, other types of temporary housing)

Not many people are in Fort Macmurray for anything but work on the oilsands, so yes, if/when the oilsands die in 10 to 100 years from now, it certainly will become somewhat of a ghost town. I dont think it will ever be completed vacated though. I believe this is why Fort Macmurray doesn't see much invested in it for civic things from the provincial government, and they have been rather reluctant to upgrade hwy 63.

[chuber]

The people having problems with the amount of money the government is spending in the Fort McMurray region need to remember that it is where a huge chunk of the provinces wealth comes from. And it is a necessary investment to ensure the money keeps pouring in which benefits the rest of the province.

[240glt]

They need to do something about the highway to Fort Mac. It's 2 lanes most of the way, The last 120 kms or so are in absolutely wretched shape, you frequently run into massive pieces of machinery being transported which are moving at 30 kph, at certain times during the week the road is plugged solid with busses, trucks and jackasses in F-350's trying to pass at 140kph... that road needs to be twinned, period.

[canucklehead2]

I am still surprised that more companies aren't setting up an fly-in/fly-out job cycle for workers, so that their families can live in towns and cities that are more affordable in Alberta like Vegreville or St Paul. I mean all of those places I believe have airports that can accomodates 737's or very close to it.

It would be a much better way to revive other towns and spread out the impact of rapid growth...

[mersar]

And it is being twinned. Work started last year on designing the new highway, so hopefully construction may be able to start later this year on at least some of it.

[Kevin_foster]

When oil prices drop low enough, Calgary and Edmonton will continue to grow, but fort mac will become a ghost town, there's no doubt about it. From what I've heard, a huge chunk of Fort Mac's population only plans on living there temporarily, and the economy is almost completely reliant on the oil sands.

Also, there's nothing better than having a 12 lane freeway cutting through your downtown. :rolleyes:

I dont know about ghost town... the time it plateaus, it could be around 200,000 people... migratory or otherwise, that's a good indicator that it's there to stay - the local service industry is probably self sufficient at around 200,000 people.

I think what the town needs to do is plan for the future. Perhaps build a few nice colleges and technical schools, promote more tourism, have plans in place for research and development outside of oil/gas- so when the oil runs out, there will still be industry - and people that loose their jobs, will not have too hard of a problem finding new ones..

[Stephen Ave]

They don't need this road. Widening hwy 63 through Fort McMurray by one maybe two lanes would be plenty. The road is dead throughout the day and on weekends. It's only busy at peak periods. What a waste of money.

[chuber]

And it is being twinned. Work started last year on designing the new highway, so hopefully construction may be able to start later this year on at least some of it.

The have already started clearing trees just south of FM. They are starting on that end and moving towards Edmonton. Unfortunately it will probably take forever to finally get done.

[officedweller]

Look at the map closely - the collector lanes are NOT freeway.
There are traffic lights on the collector lanes.

This is a strange configuration - the collector lanes to the left of the map are more like a "business frontage road". ie. if you want to exit at Hospital Street, you exit to the collector lanes at Loop Road, hit a traffic light, then continue on the "collector lanes" to the next traffic light for Hospital Street. Similarly, if you enter at Hospital Street, you don't access freeway until past the traffic lights at Loop Road.

I guess this reflects the population and actual use of the highway (versus, say, Toronto).

[Doug]

I am still surprised that more companies aren't setting up an fly-in/fly-out job cycle for workers, so that their families can live in towns and cities that are more affordable in Alberta like Vegreville or St Paul. I mean all of those places I believe have airports that can accomodates 737's or very close to it.

It would be a much better way to revive other towns and spread out the impact of rapid growth...

Already happening. CNRL has its own airstrip at its Horizon oilsands project. Other companies fly people in and out through Ft. Mac airport to locations are distant as Nfld.

[Doug]

It has been a while, but from what I remember hwy 63 is the only through route in Fort Mac linking all three sections of the city. It also carriers traffic over the only bridge across the Athabasca.

[lubicon]

i don't know if #63 has been improved or not (it's been about 15 years since I've driven it) but I absolutely hated that drive. I drove a tandem axle truck back then and there were no shoulders to speak of on the road. It was real fun driving at night in the middle of winter and you were passing logging trucks and other semi's coming the other direction. everyone was hugging the centre line as there were no shoulders and it freaked me out every time you passed someone. If there was ever a road that needs to be twinned, this is the one.

[SpongeG]

my brother worked up there - he said the traffic jams up there were awful - bumper to bumper for miles

sounds like a much needed project

[Only The Lonely..]

Shit..

Winnipeg is a city of 711,000 + and we don't have anything that even remotely resembles a freeway.

Is traffic in Ft.Mac (pop. 64,000) really so bad that you need 12 lanes of glory to hurdle you to Edmonton?


I would think Alberta's oil money could be better spent.

[Windex]

Yeah, it does seem a bit much, but I can see the need for it. Not only for the oil sands, but for the expanding infrastructure that comes from a rapidly growing city. You also have to consider that the freeway itself will only be the 6 lanes and the collector lanes are not quite collector lanes in the 401 sense.

Does anyone know if this will extend past the city? I doubt it, but I don't know the area well enough to know if it'd be needed.

[vid]

Is this 6 lanes (three both ways) or six lanes (six both ways)?

[Windex]

Three both ways, looking at the proposal.

[vid]

Then where is the 12 coming from?

[Bassic Lab]

Then where is the 12 coming from?

That came from counting the collector lanes, which are not really proper collector lanes. That said, Deerfoot isn't as much a freeway as this thing looks to be. I'm not altogether sure that it's requred.

[itom 987]

They could always extend the freeway further north to Wood Buffalo National Park and Yellowknife. The extension wouldn't be six lanes wide though.

[itom 987]

Oh yeah, Uranium City in Saskatchewan could use a road if a Nuclear Power Plant is used to extract the oil from the bitmum.

[korzym]

When oil prices drop low enough, Calgary and Edmonton will continue to grow, but fort mac will become a ghost town, there's no doubt about it. From what I've heard, a huge chunk of Fort Mac's population only plans on living there temporarily, and the economy is almost completely reliant on the oil sands.

Also, there's nothing better than having a 12 lane freeway cutting through your downtown. :rolleyes:

www.lifeaftertheoilcrash.net
The only problem to your thesis is that oil prices are much less likely to drop as they did after the 70s. Read that site, learn. Only parts I disagree with is basically anything that it speculates happening once it has run out.

People what's with the farmer's economic thinking here? aka left wing arguments about complaints this isn't going towards the two major cities? We're talking about the second largest oil field in the world, give your heads a good shake.

[krazycanuck]

Fort Mcmurray is also a really long...and really skinny city, who's largest employer is on the far north end of town. There is no LRT and limited bus service. There is only one way to get from one side of the Athabasca to the other...and that is this road. I would imagine the thing is quite badly needed.

Also, I once nearly hit a moose on highway 63. Bad times.

[Lead]

It would be great if they could expand this highway north to Yellowknife. I think it would really help to open up the north.

[Xelebes]

It would be great if they could expand this highway north to Yellowknife. I think it would really help to open up the north.

Yeah, an not use the piss-take excuse of river transport.

However, there is a highway to Hay Lakes that goes through High Level. But I tell you, that is one desolate road.

[Canadian Mind]

so what is it? the collector lanes look like a second highway outside a major artery, with the artery simply bypassing the city and the collecters feeding the city... that what this is?

[liferanger]

After somemore thinking about this project and looking closely at the maps....It's easier to figure out....Currently there is 4 lanes with intersections throughout the main part of Ft Mcmurray. All this proposal does is dedicate two more lanes ( 3 both ways) into a limited access freeway upgrade.

Then, if you look at the collector lanes, I'm willing to bet dollars to donuts that these are being built (min 2 lanes each way) for all the equipment etc that's being continually hauled up to the plants....Im not talking about 18 wheelers, Im talking about the 4-5 story cokers and plant equipment that gets built in Edmonton, takes a precise route to avoid power lines, overpasses (which in this case is why they have collector roads). To further add to my theory, closely look at the interchanges past the Athabasca river that dont have collector roads....Well tuned interchanges and on/off ramps with ones labeled "high load".

[officedweller]

Ah, that makes sense - but is it easier than having all cross streets in underpasses?

[SpongeG]

when my brother worked in ft mac i think he said there are 40,000 employees who work at the big plant or whatever it is and so they do it in shifts so the roads are pretty busy - they do bus in a lot of employees as well and if there is one accident it just shuts the whole thing down for hours which makes it even worse

[lubicon]

It would be great if they could expand this highway north to Yellowknife. I think it would really help to open up the north.

Yellowknife is already linked to Alberta by a highway, why would there be a need for another one??

[Stephen Ave]

Yellowknife is already linked to Alberta by a highway, why would there be a need for another one??

And to go from Fort Mac to Yellowknife is one hell of a long trip to boot. I can't see many people using it over and above the one through High Level.

[itom 987]

And to go from Fort Mac to Yellowknife is one hell of a long trip to boot. I can't see many people using it over and above the one through High Level.

Bingo, think about Saskatchewan too.

[Canadian Mind]

And to go from Fort Mac to Yellowknife is one hell of a long trip to boot. I can't see many people using it over and above the one through High Level.

If a new, better highway is built, and it cuts 1/3 of the time, it would encourage me to drive up. Just to go see. even if Yellowknife is only 20 000 or so, the additional tourism will cause it to grow. could market themselves as the most northern true city in Canada, someone is bound to fall for it.

With a new highway the pop will have expanded enough within 15-25 years to make the project worth it, hopefully.:tup:

[SHOFEAR]

If a new, better highway is built, and it cuts 1/3 of the time, it would encourage me to drive up. Just to go see. even if Yellowknife is only 20 000 or so, the additional tourism will cause it to grow. could market themselves as the most northern true city in Canada, someone is bound to fall for it.

With a new highway the pop will have expanded enough within 15-25 years to make the project worth it, hopefully.:tup:

So here's an idea.

What if Alberta were to fund a large chunk of a more efficient road to Yellowknife? Obviously it would cost alot, but it should mean that Alberta would be the major benefactor from increased development up north.

I have no clue if it would be worth it...

[ScottFromCalgary]

Maybe we could build some roads and such for them now in exchange for the future royalties to their natural gas. Doubt it though.

[lubicon]

This is veering OT, but there is absolutely no need to build a second highway to Yellowknife. The one we have now is sufficient and you would not save any distance or time by building one from Ft Mac. The current highway is a paved 2 lane highway all the way to the Alberta/NWT border, and may be paved from that point on (I'm not sure). The only real bottleneck is getting across the Mckenzie River which involves a ferry in the summer and an ice bridge in winter. There would be several weeks in spring/fall where you can't get across due to ice or lack of ice. From Ft Mac, you would have to either run the highway west along the south shore of Great Slave Lake where it would link up to the current highway anyhow, or go around the east end of the lake. Either way it would be massive waste of money. As I said before, there is already a good highway connection to Yellowknife from Alberta.

[Doug]

I've driven to Yellowknife once. The section through NWT is gravel, but in good shape. The traffic load is relatively minor so the need to upgrade the road isn't that pressing. That could change if mining and O&G development in the territories were to accelerate. There is actually about 4 weeks in each of the spring and fall during which the ferry can't operate due to ice on the river. The ice isn't thick enough to use as an ice road. A bridge would be possible, but I imangine prohibatively expensive.

[MrChills]

Is anybody having a hard time stomaching the money the provincial government is planning on spending in Fort Mac? I question what Fort Mac will be like in 25 years and if it is smart to invest in it...especially when Edmonton and Calgary could use the infrastructure money.

If it wasn't for Fort McMurray and the surrounding Oil sands you wouldn't have many of those pretty towers in Calgary and Edmonton :rolleyes:

[MrChills]

When oil prices drop low enough, Calgary and Edmonton will continue to grow, but fort mac will become a ghost town, there's no doubt about it. From what I've heard, a huge chunk of Fort Mac's population only plans on living there temporarily, and the economy is almost completely reliant on the oil sands.

Also, there's nothing better than having a 12 lane freeway cutting through your downtown. :rolleyes:

I doubt we will see the price of oil dropping anytime soon, actually, if ever. If so, you will also see the growth of Calgary and Edmonton slow if not stop also.

[MrChills]

It has been a while, but from what I remember hwy 63 is the only through route in Fort Mac linking all three sections of the city. It also carriers traffic over the only bridge across the Athabasca.

I was up in Fort Mac for the first time last week, and the Highway 63 is the ONLY road joining all areas that comprise the city (Abasand, Thickwood, Timberlea, etc.) I was blown away by how bustling this city is, and experienced first hand how bad the local infrastructure is. We got stuck behind a caravan of trucks carrying massive equipment at 1am on 63 and it took us about 20 minutes to move 2km.

[newflyer]

When oil prices drop low enough, Calgary and Edmonton will continue to grow, but fort mac will become a ghost town, there's no doubt about it. From what I've heard, a huge chunk of Fort Mac's population only plans on living there temporarily, and the economy is almost completely reliant on the oil sands.

Also, there's nothing better than having a 12 lane freeway cutting through your downtown. :rolleyes:


I would question your assumption that Calgary and Edmonton would continue to grow during periods of depressive oil prices. Historicly that has not been the case. I would fear that most of alberta would be on a slippery slop if oil dropped low enough.... as it is I am hearing more and more people talking about heading back.

Lets just say enjoy it while it lasts ... and don't ask questions.

[401_King]

my brother worked up there - he said the traffic jams up there were awful - bumper to bumper for miles



this is very untrue. the traffic jams are there once in a blue moon when some idiot decides to drive off that ugly green bridge etc. the traffic is fine in the city even north of highway 63 & confederation drive where ppl come back from work from suncor, syncrude etc.

most ppl get off at confed exit , or the next one (thickwood) exit to go to their homes. the minority of ppl go to downtown and south.

[401_King]

lol @ Fort mac getting this kind of freeway. it should belong in a place like calgary, the only legit one they have there is deerfoot trl and that only goes north south on the east end of the city. last time i been there they were working on glenmore trail and mcleod. that city is having headaches at 5pm with a lack of road.


lol i dunno what else to say. Looks a lot like a mini 401 to me. i just dont see how this highway is needed when those Diversified buses take out the vast majority of workers.

[ScottFromCalgary]

^^^Not quite accurate, but I agree with the point you are trying to make.

[401_King]

^^^Not quite accurate

?

[74Magnum]

lol i dunno what else to say. Looks a lot like a mini 401 to me. i just dont see how this highway is needed when those Diversified buses take out the vast majority of workers.
The buses cause a lot of the traffic. If people had to drive to Syncrude/Suncor it would be a complete nightmare. There's endless buses at various times during the day. It's a pain during rush.

I don't know how many people posting on this have been to and have spent time in Ft. Mac but it's not a normal city. I agree the full on freeway is not really as necessary right now but the city has different infrastructure needs from normal cities.

Some of this is being addressed by the start of all the new upgraders in the north east Edmonton area so it eases pressure off Mac plus alot of workers would rather stay near a city but the smaller cities in the area are going to run into huge problems as well if they are'nt fully prepared. They say they're ready but by 2012 we'll see.

[401_King]

well the scenario where everyone drives to the plants will never exist. the vast majority of people don't drive and will never drive to the oil sands plants. the Diversified buses are free and the workers work their 8-4 schedule like its a shift blue or white collar. the plants are 30+ km depending if ur suncor(26km from confederation ) or syncrude(farther). its waste of money to drive unless ur a Director, VPs etc who need to put in the extra hours. the buses are fine, half of them go up the hills up thickwood and Confederation easing up the traffic before the bridge. there are no traffic jams in this city----it only happens when there is an accident (usually around the bridge) and that will happen anywhere.

i dont see this as a solution to a problem which they think exists today. there is no problem. but if they see mega traffic in 20 years from now then they planned well. but right now there is no problem in my opinion.

[BTinSF]

I was up in Fort Mac for the first time last week, and the Highway 63 is the ONLY road joining all areas that comprise the city (Abasand, Thickwood, Timberlea, etc.) I was blown away by how bustling this city is, and experienced first hand how bad the local infrastructure is. We got stuck behind a caravan of trucks carrying massive equipment at 1am on 63 and it took us about 20 minutes to move 2km.

Woohoo! As a longtime Suncor stockholder, music to my ears. Keep diggin that black gold, guys!

[401_King]

Woohoo! As a longtime Suncor stockholder, music to my ears. Keep diggin that black gold, guys!

u shoulda sold last year.