[Lucky Luke]

The Millenium Dome...
The Jubilee Line Extension...
Wembley Stadium...
The East London Line Extension...
Crossrail...
Channel Tunnel Rail Link

The above are all projects that have suffered from massively spiralling costs, public rows and farcical delays of sometimes many years after the initial due date. They're all in London, former capital of an Empire, hub of global finance, "world city" and home of great universities.

When you look abroad and see the awesome projects that are just DONE, little fuss, little problem, it makes me wonder. The Greeks put on the Olympics, the French built stade de France for £180m. Madrid built a 30km metro line in 3 years from design to opening, for $85m/km.

By contrast Wembley stadium will have cost around £1 bn when it finally opens this year (if it does!), the 16km JLE took 7 years to build after design and final approval (30 years after proposal) and cost $375m/km, the £1bn Millenium Dome does Nothing. The Channel Tunnel Rail Link took 10 years.

So what's the problem here? Will they really be up to the Olympics in 2012?

[vid]

You think these things don't happen in other places?

Our 120 million dollar hospital that was supposed to open in 2001, ended up being a half billion dollar hospital that opened in 2004 and it not only falling apart, but sinking too!

London can DO stuff. :) Trust me. The Olympics will be great. :)

[Lucky Luke]

Yes these problems do happen elsewhere. And in some places they don't for some reason that I am eager to discover. Is it a lack of centralised control? Too much private sector reliance? Conflicting interests? Or downright incompetence from the top down?

[LSyd]

1. this isn't buildings or architecture
2. this seems like troll bait/city vs city crap

-

[UglymanCometh]

Boo fuckin hoo.

Unless you live in Detroit, you can't complain about shit. lol.....

;)

[Michi]

^ As a resident of the former 3rd city of the most powerful nation in the world, I second that. (3rd city is like "king of an empire status" in itself.)

[Attrill]

When you look abroad and see the awesome projects that are just DONE, little fuss, little problem, it makes me wonder. The Greeks put on the Olympics...


The end result was good, but is that really an example of efficiency to aspire to? Hopefully London will be more organized and efficient in puting together the Olympics.

The Millenium Dome was a bad idea from the start, and all the other projects you name had some issues, but nothing that you don't see in projects that size anywhere else in the world (look at Millenium Park in Chicago - it was way over budget and wasn't completed until 2004). The Eye opened late, but worked out well.

[oilcan]

I'm telling you this is a curse from selling the London Bridge to Arizona..

Millenium Dome is being transformed into an entertainment mecca complete with a decent sized arena, theaters, shops, eaterys, and clubs now no?

[oilcan]

I'm telling you this is a curse from selling the London Bridge to Arizona..

Millenium Dome is being transformed into an entertainment mecca complete with a decent sized arena, theaters, shops, eaterys, and clubs now no?

Oh wait... I just described a shopping mall.. :)

[nito]

The Millenium Dome...
The Jubilee Line Extension...
Wembley Stadium...
The East London Line Extension...
Crossrail...
Channel Tunnel Rail Link

The above are all projects that have suffered from massively spiralling costs, public rows and farcical delays of sometimes many years after the initial due date. They're all in London, former capital of an Empire, hub of global finance, "world city" and home of great universities.

When you look abroad and see the awesome projects that are just DONE, little fuss, little problem, it makes me wonder. The Greeks put on the Olympics, the French built stade de France for £180m. Madrid built a 30km metro line in 3 years from design to opening, for $85m/km.

By contrast Wembley stadium will have cost around £1 bn when it finally opens this year (if it does!), the 16km JLE took 7 years to build after design and final approval (30 years after proposal) and cost $375m/km, the £1bn Millenium Dome does Nothing. The Channel Tunnel Rail Link took 10 years.

So what's the problem here? Will they really be up to the Olympics in 2012?As numerous posts have illustrated, this isn't a problem that is confined to London, but is a problem around the world. I also disagree with some of your points:

The Millennium Dome was a failure for what it tried out to be, but it is succeeding as a catalyst for regeneration. The Greenwich Peninsula redevelopment project simply wouldn't have happened had the Millennium Dome been built (and the connecting Jubilee Line station). London also wouldn't be building the world's largest indoor arena (26,000 capacity). Within a few years, the once industrial wasteland will be home to over 20,000 people and offices for 24,000 more.

The Jubilee Line Extension was exceptionally costly project, but it was needed and has paid for itself several times over. Who would have thought that back in 1999, that from the lonely 1x150m+ tower, to 2007 that another 6x150m+ towers would be built? The Southbank has been completely opened up (Tate Modern, Shakespeare's Globe Theatre, etc...) and wastelands such as the Greenwich Peninsula (mentioned above) and Stratford Rail Lands are going to become new quarters for London. Stratford will also be the hub for the 2012 London Olympics.

Also, another reason for the high cost was the problem of integrating the stations with present stations (most interchanges were re-built to cope with the new line - this isn't a cheap affair) and multiple railway lines, and the requirement to build amongst the biggest and most impressive stations on the planet....Canary Wharf tube station has yet to be matched in modern metro design circles for the simple wow factor.

Wembley Stadium was indeed a shambles, but then thankfully its not public money being thrown down the drain, its Multiplex and the international banks behind it. Yet we'll be getting it in 2 months time, and the entire area around the site will be transformed into yet another big redevelopment opportunity. Several tall buildings and lots of housing and commercial opportunities to ensure that Wembley is a stadium that breathes 24/7 unlike most other stadia around the world which are located in the middle of nowhere surrounded by car parks.

The East London Line Extension was delayed because of democracy: one old guy thought that history was at risk from being destroyed. The result was construction was held up. Should he have done this? In my opinion, he is an idiot, but then his opinion is just as valid as mine and we live a democratic society where concerns have to be understood. You don't tend to get the depth of interaction and democratic procedures that you do in the UK with the planning system, as you would in Europe, let alone the rest of the world.

Crossrail is a project that has been on-going for 70 years. Its annoying that it has yet to be built, but there are multiple reasons for this. The first is that the line has to be built to accommodate projections of the Thames Gateway...these have only been recently finalised. The second is that London is already a hub of activity for railway construction: CTRL, Heathrow T5 Heathrow Express & Piccadilly Line extensions, East London Line, Woolwich DLR Extension, Stratford International DLR Extension and Thameslink.... the general scheme of things is that once the CTRL is finished later this year, those workers will be shifted onto Crossrail. What it means is that you retain the talent to ensure the project in the long-run is as efficiently run as possible, that is where the problem on the Jubilee Line Extension occurred: there simply wasn't vast amounts of global talent around to undertake the complicated project. There is now, and that talent has to be retained. Once Thameslink and the East London Line is finished, then work would probably start on a possible Crossrail 2 Line....

The CTRL was delayed because its a brand new HSR line that needed to be as straight as possible, but had to overcome several hurdles. The first is that several villages had to literally be 'lifted' and moved - again, democracy at work and this takes time. The second is that the CTRL had to travel under London via 2x19km tunnels. To my knowledge, there aren't any HSR lines that travel underground through cities.Yet the project is ahead of schedule and under-budget.

Yet the annoying thing is that while you point out these projects which I should add are probably amongst some of the most complicated engineering projects on the planet, you don't highlight any of the positives:
- East London Line: despite being set back is now back on-track and on schedule
- Heathrow Terminal 5: a 30mppa terminal larger than most cities main airport: ahead of schedule and less expensive than initial projections
- Heathrow Terminal 5 Piccadilly Line & Heathrow Express connections
- Arsenal's new 60,000 Emirates Stadium
- Twickenham Stadium Expansion to 82,000
- CTRL

The amazing thing is, despite London being one of the most expensive cities in the world it still gets done. I can't think of any city on the planet that has the infrastructure or venues of London and is continuing to expand upon them. And now London 2012!

London isn't perfect, but it does far better than most other cities which have far fewer issues or problems to contend with.

[Lucky Luke]

Yet the annoying thing is that while you point out these projects which I should add are probably amongst some of the most complicated engineering projects on the planet, you don't highlight any of the positives:
- East London Line: despite being set back is now back on-track and on schedule
- Heathrow Terminal 5: a 30mppa terminal larger than most cities main airport: ahead of schedule and less expensive than initial projections
- Heathrow Terminal 5 Piccadilly Line & Heathrow Express connections
- Arsenal's new 60,000 Emirates Stadium
- Twickenham Stadium Expansion to 82,000
- CTRL

The amazing thing is, despite London being one of the most expensive cities in the world it still gets done. I can't think of any city on the planet that has the infrastructure or venues of London and is continuing to expand upon them. And now London 2012!

London isn't perfect, but it does far better than most other cities which have far fewer issues or problems to contend with.

Nick you are right to point out the successes. In the case of Twickenham and Arsenal, these are both private enterprises and that's crucial. In the public domain what we get is --- Wembley.
Small scale projects of high importance like the Heathrow links are well carried out.
It' the bigger scale projects that tend to get bogged down in bureaucracy tangles, underfunding, lack of vision and direction. To be honest I think the facilities in many European cities exceed London pound for pound.

[muppet]

its neither a sellers nor a buyers market, its a middlemans rule. For example the ENTIRE Victoria line, with all stations running, took 7 years to build in the 1970s. Fast forward to the millennium and ONE 3 level escalator at Tottenham Ct Rd station takes 12 years to repair.

Imagine walking up and down on your daily commute FOR TWELVE FECKIN YEARS. The corruption is phenomenal - the builders were of course, charging us taxpayers by the hour.
Yep, for twelve years.

Other examples include refitting a school toilet block costs $400,000. The planning stage alone + 'call out fees' costs us $40,000. Similarly changing a single lightbulb in a public office costs $120.

Dontcha just !LOVE big business?

and blow me, how can one 7 storey office block + underground station refit opposite Big ben cost over $1 billion (more than the new WTC).

...and dont even get me started on the bastards that rob the NHS...
The largest single project on in London is not the Olympic Stadium, it's a 'super'hospital (read: hospital) that will cost over $2 billion. The largest in the country at the mo is the upgrading of the London-Glasgow train line to high speed. It will cost more than the entire Channel Tunnel compex- $36 billion FOR ONE TRAIN TRACK. THATiS ALREADY FECKIN THERE.

[muppet]

Basically the rule of thumb goes, if its a public project (read taxpayers money), charge us fuckers through the roof. Stagger the process as long as possible with expensive delays, enquiries and a whole lotta lawyers. Then send ur invoice.

[Lucky Luke]

Basically the rule of thumb goes, if its a public project (read taxpayers money), charge us fuckers through the roof. Stagger the process as long as possible with expensive delays, enquiries and a whole lotta lawyers. Then send ur invoice.

I think you may be onto something here...
Isn't it Ken's job to sort this out?

[muppet]

Theres no evidence. Hes already having a hard enough time trying to expose metronet which are much doing the same thing - a signal failure or line breakdown every few minutes on average.

[nito]

Nick you are right to point out the successes. In the case of Twickenham and Arsenal, these are both private enterprises and that's crucial. In the public domain what we get is --- Wembley.
Small scale projects of high importance like the Heathrow links are well carried out.
It' the bigger scale projects that tend to get bogged down in bureaucracy tangles, underfunding, lack of vision and direction. To be honest I think the facilities in many European cities exceed London pound for pound.Wembley isn't a public domain project.

I also don't see what is 'small scale' about digging several km of tunnels under the busiest 2 runway/international airport in the world, with future connections for Airtrack.

And some cities probably do exceed London for 'value', but then none of those cities have anything close to the infrastructure scale of London. So technically I'd argue against that.



and blow me, how can one 7 storey office block + underground station refit opposite Big ben cost over $1 billion (more than the new WTC).

The largest in the country at the mo is the upgrading of the London-Glasgow train line to high speed. It will cost more than the entire Channel Tunnel compex- $36 billion FOR ONE TRAIN TRACK. THATiS ALREADY FECKIN THERE.I quote your two points here because there are issues here that you wouldn't have noticed.

The first is that Portcullis House cost so much is that it included the cost of building the Jubilee Line station below. It also included the crazy task of shifting the Circle & District Lines across the vast void that became the escalator hall down to the platforms....with the tracks above still being used. An engineering miracle that is rarely mentioned.

The second is that the West Coast Main Line Modernisation Programme is one of the most complex engineering problems around. The WCML is the busiest trunk route railway in the world outside Japan: thousands of trains use the route each day and modernising the entire length is a logistical nightmare. Simply closing the line for several months wasn't a possibility and the only time that work could commence was at night...that doesn't give much time, nor the best conditions: it is also expensive. It is also far from being a single train track, some of the route is 6-track, and most is 3/4-track!

The big cost was trying to implement ETCS Level 3 moving-block signalling, to most people that probably doesn't mean much, but the LVG Est which is the brand new French HSR line and saw the world rail speed record smashed only has ETCS Level 2. Essentially it was trying to take a technology used on automated metro lines and replicate it across a heavily congested rail corridor. Unfortunately because this was untried technology on such a vast scale, it led to a few problems.

Yet the WCML Modernisation Programme is no way near to being $36bn. Current estimates see the cost reduced by Network Rail to a more healthy £8 ($16bn). The network also has the possibility to still have ETCS Level 3 put in place at a later date, meaning the initial adventure can still be continued and providing the most advanced trunk route line in the world!

[dave8721]

Boo fuckin hoo.

Unless you live in Detroit, you can't complain about shit. lol.....

;)

My sentiments exactly...Any US city would KILL to have any of those things getting built and he is complaining they are coming in over budget?!?!?

Thats 3 subway lines in a few years while here in Miami it has taken 30 years to just TRY and add a SECOND mass transit line and it looks like its going to take at least another 10 to 15 years for it to be completed.

[WonderlandPark]

Same goes for LA, jeez, heart of a metro of 18 million, growing pretty quickly and it absolutely pathetic in this building boom. Totally outflanked on three sides by Vegas, San Diego and the Bay Area when it comes to "getting things done." Add to that a pathetic recent Olympic bid, unlike London's spectacular one.

[Lucky Luke]

Same goes for LA, jeez, heart of a metro of 18 million, growing pretty quickly and it absolutely pathetic in this building boom. Totally outflanked on three sides by Vegas, San Diego and the Bay Area when it comes to "getting things done." Add to that a pathetic recent Olympic bid, unlike London's spectacular one.

So, the grass is always greener huh?!
Well, I would also ask therefore why can't LA DO stuff??? Like you are.
I'd guess that LA could do plenty of stuff if it wanted, but do you LA-ites really want transport projects or do you just love your cars too much to bother using them? I believe you already have some pretty good stadia and some cool skyscrapers no?
Having said that, the US has around 23 urban metro systems, not bad for a car-oriented society. The Uk has 3, with around 1 fifth the population of the US.
My point here is really within a European context. London, having ruled most of the world for 300 years has been taking second place as compared to many European cities, which I have lived in and visited. Despite being one of the top 5 world economies money is always tight, and there are always delays.

[nito]

So, the grass is always greener huh?!
Well, I would also ask therefore why can't LA DO stuff??? Like you are.
I'd guess that LA could do plenty of stuff if it wanted, but do you LA-ites really want transport projects or do you just love your cars too much to bother using them? I believe you already have some pretty good stadia and some cool skyscrapers no?
Having said that, the US has around 23 urban metro systems, not bad for a car-oriented society. The Uk has 3, with around 1 fifth the population of the US.
My point here is really within a European context. London, having ruled most of the world for 300 years has been taking second place as compared to many European cities, which I have lived in and visited. Despite being one of the top 5 world economies money is always tight, and there are always delays.What on earth are you babbling on about now!

The US has 11 cities with heavy rail metro networks, the rest you refer to are light rail networks. If you combine the total for those cities with heavy rail networks within the city: Atlanta (81km); Baltimore (24.5km); Boston (60.5km); Chicago (173km); Cleveland (31km); Los Angeles (28km); Miami (38km); New York City (368km); Newark (22.2km); Philadelphia (62km) and Washington (169.5km) you end up with a heavy rail network smaller than that within London. Add BART (which is a lot more like a commuter rail system) and it is roughly equal in size.

The simple reason why most British cities lack a metro network, is because they already have extensive heavy rail networks. Why build a metro, when the cities already have extensive heavy rail services - it doesn't make economical sense, hence why they never got built!

Money isn't 'tight', its that Britain doesn't have as high taxes as in most of Europe. And there are delays in Europe as well, even though you'd be keen to neglect that point.

[chevy064]

Thats life - if certain people don't stand to gain from a project (even though it will benefit an area as a whole) - they help to slow things down or even block it from happening all together.

Money is the way of the world and the root of all evil. Sad I know.

[PeterG]

The largest in the country at the mo is the upgrading of the London-Glasgow train line to high speed. It will cost more than the entire Channel Tunnel compex- $36 billion FOR ONE TRAIN TRACK. THATiS ALREADY FECKIN THERE.

I'm not quite sure how your idea of upgrading a 400 mile main line that carries 2000 trains a day, nearly half of all freight services in the country, and passes through the middle of the 5 biggest cities in the UK is simple??
The final cost was not $36 billion - it came in at around 9 billion pounds.

As far as I'm concerned, these projects are infinitely times more important than hosting the bloody Olympics!!
When I hear that it's going to cost 9 billion pounds of our money to hold a 2 week event, while the NHS is grossly inefficient and the UK's whole transport infrastructure is decades outdated, it makes me sick.
The UK is such a backwards country, I often wonder why I live here!

[hoosier]

I'm not quite sure how your idea of upgrading a 400 mile main line that carries 2000 trains a day, nearly half of all freight services in the country, and passes through the middle of the 5 biggest cities in the UK is simple??
The final cost was not $36 billion - it came in at around 9 billion pounds.

As far as I'm concerned, these projects are infinitely times more important than hosting the bloody Olympics!!
When I hear that it's going to cost 9 billion pounds of our money to hold a 2 week event, while the NHS is grossly inefficient and the UK's whole transport infrastructure is decades outdated, it makes me sick.
The UK is such a backwards country, I often wonder why I live here!

Count your blessings, at least you HAVE a comprehensive national health insurance program and a decent rail infrastructure.

Here in the good 'ol USA we have NEITHER and aren't likely to get them for at least a generation.

Plus, in response to the original post of this thread, when comparing London to New York, London is LIGHT YEARS ahead of NYC, which is plagued by bureaucratic malaise and NIMBYism that has stalled much needed infrastructure improvements.

[Lucky Luke]

Nice little addendum. This week the government has announced that official estimates for holding the Olympic Games are quadrupling from just over 2bn£ to over 9 bn£. But hold it, there are still 5 years to go. Let's start a sweepstake right now. I put my money on, mmmm.... £15bn?

[JBinCalgary]

i hope the olympics go well

[one very bored guy]

What makes you think that large projects running over budget are exclusive to London? You maybe surprised to find out that many famous landmarks in the world exceeded their budget and/or completion deadlines. One of the most famous is the Sydney Opera House which ran 15x the original budget. Now if the 2012 Olympics were to do that it would cost 30billion.

I can think of countless cost overruns and design failures around the world, London is certainly no different there.

[Jonas]

It seems it's not ONLY London but it still makes me wonder, what the hell is happening with, for exmple, London's public transport systems? The government is boasting about spending £10bn but it's been while already it seems... Why can't they simply put air cons into buses or the underground? Why "the train has been delayed due to signaling problems" is a daily business when I'm just trying to get to work (what about changing all these bloody signaling systems so that they wouldn't fail?). Why just not to take a look at HK or Singapore and make things work in the same way in London (i.e. more efficiently, cheaper and simply better?). London's a fantastic city and hardly any city can match it when it comes to most of the positive things but sometimes the inefficiency is just staggering.

[BenL]

Air conditioning is being phased onto the Underground sub-surface lines (such as the District and Circle line) whilst there are plans for air-cooling systems on the deeper lines.

[Jonas]

Air conditioning is being phased onto the Underground sub-surface lines (such as the District and Circle line) whilst there are plans for air-cooling systems on the deeper lines.

It's about time... it's not 19th century anymore :|

[HowardL]

Not that this post will contribute to the discussion much. but ... even on its most crap day, London just makes being alive a bit more worth it.

[Razqal]

maybe brits drink too much beer. i hear alcohol is served 24/7 there. can't construct anything properly there when you're too buzzed on the job, ya know??? :cheers:

[one very bored guy]

It seems it's not ONLY London but it still makes me wonder, what the hell is happening with, for exmple, London's public transport systems? The government is boasting about spending £10bn but it's been while already it seems... Why can't they simply put air cons into buses or the underground? Why "the train has been delayed due to signaling problems" is a daily business when I'm just trying to get to work (what about changing all these bloody signaling systems so that they wouldn't fail?). Why just not to take a look at HK or Singapore and make things work in the same way in London (i.e. more efficiently, cheaper and simply better?). London's a fantastic city and hardly any city can match it when it comes to most of the positive things but sometimes the inefficiency is just staggering.

It comes down pretty much to two things. Size and age. London's underground network is not only the largest in the world, but also the oldest. The design of the older lines simply make it very difficult to install air conditioning on the trains. And the enormous size of the network makes any improvements very expensive.

Of cause the networks in Singapore and Hong Kong are more modern. They are newer. They were built when air conditioning had already been invented, and in much warmer parts of the world (Singapore is tropical).

Look how wonderful the new lines in london look. Obviously the newer technology has also come to the underground in these new lines.

[zilfondel]

Two words: Prince Charles.

Of course, that isn't really the case anymore, but he sure put Modern Architecture ande public works projects through the firing squad in the 80s and early 90s.

[muppet]

no, its got nothing to do with architectural style. If anything its the opposite camp thats gotten the bill so astronomically high, and the building work so staggered and bureacratic - its the big business contractors who are charging by the hour, the lawyers finding fault and potential lawsuits in everything, and the culture of suing organisations combined with business policies avoiding any risks whatsoever. Its the insurers, the auditors, the lawyers, the contractors, etc all taking a piece of the pie - and why so much money is blown away before the whole project collapses in the red. If the landowners have any strategy, they drop all their plans and sell on at a profit, as in the case of Battersea Power Station - twice bitten and now half demolished (and seriously degrading under the weather) thanx to convoluted processes and dirty dealings. For over 30 years now one of the greatest and most iconic landmarks in London, with some of the highest potential in land values, has lain derelict.

[BINARY SYSTEM]

It's ok...New York can't do anything either!

[muppet]

ok picture this, its 90f outside, on the tube that equates to 130f, which far exceeds the EU regulations on temperature on the humane transportation of animals. Of course because they use cheapest grade steel the tracks bend - another much wider issue with the national train network on the whole, and its tendency to derail trains - and the train is forced to shuttle forward at less than half speed. This blocks up the entire London network as the computers ensure that no train is less than one station away from each other, to avoid collisions (rightfully so). In effect my physical experience of commuting during summer was nothing short of hell. The first day the train stopped in the tunnel while the carriage was absolutely crushed full of people at rush hour, made worse by the network wide delays. You could see and feel the sweat dripping off people every time they flicked their head and running down their noses,and onto someone else. The smell was horrible - dubbed 'armpit ambience' by the common sufferers, and like being in a sauna with clothes on, and alot more embarrassment - I was forced to take my top off too. Its been rare Ive ever been so frustrated.

Every day after that for the entire heatwave was the same story, stopping for 5 minutes in the tunnel, then shuffling to the next station, cramming more people on, stopping another 5 minutes, shuffling forward etc. I took to taking a towel with me to work and play, and dressing like a beach muppet, and dealing with my claustrophobia issues.


Then theres the issue of the entire lines breaking down every few minutes due to 'signal failures' that Metronet make 500 million a year by 'fixing', and that force trains to wait 7 minutes before turning up at rush hour. This 7 minutes is astronomical in London terms, when you think its every 2 minutes a train turns up and gets crammed to overflowing each time, you can imagine more than 3x the crowd that's built up by then, a few thousand per minute, trying to get on.
At the next station the train is so utterly full noone can get on, so you have to wait another 7 minutes before the next train which of course is also utterly packed. Now remember London rush 'hour' is actually 3.5 hours a pop and you can imagine the crowds - queueing to get into the station, queueing to get into the ticket hall (and woe betide thee who actually wants to buy a ticket), queueing to get past the ticket barriers, queueing to get onto the platform, and finally on the train. The last time this happened I actually got off at the WRONG station (along with a few other people) as we couldnt actually see the station name signs from the mass of humanity - and had to repeat the process all over again. I came close to fucking lamping an innocent bystander. My work couldnt believe how it could take me near 2 hrs from when I first rang to say Id be late on the tube to actually getting there - in that time I could have walked and some.


And now for the cherry on top - for this, all this, you're paying the most expensive travel pricing in the world. Mile on mile London transport works out more than Concorde did. And where does all those billions go? To the corrupt companies that have taken over the system. Its interesting to note when it was a public office, entire tube lines were built and costmanaged within 7 years and actually UNDER budget, trains ran on time and without failure. Also on the overground trains, they had more carriage space, whereas nowadays the big business has worked out its more cost optimising if you cram your carriages with standing room only, for 2 hrs commute in some cases, while pretending they dont have the funds to add extra carriages on - it saves on the FUEL used to transport x amount of people of course.

They did recently add extra carriages after consumer boycotts this year - and bless'em, hiked the price by a third for the luxury, on already extortionate rates. Its now more expensive to travel to Manchester by train on the day than to Paris, and in some instances to NYC (I was quoted $500 on my last trip).

anyway argh! rant over. I just find it annoying that my quality of life is being sold to some fatcat fuckers pocket, who makes more by lowering it, and laughs at my stupidity/ powerlessness for taking it.

[muppet]

PS has anyone, anything EVER seen anyone, anything working on the Regents Park station refit? Its always utterly devoid of human life everytime I shuttle past on the tube.

[one very bored guy]

And now for the cherry on top - for this, all this, you're paying the most expensive travel pricing in the world. Mile on mile London transport works out more than Concorde did.

Sorry, I don't believe you a bit there.

The Metropolitan Line (Is this the longest in London?) is 67km from end to end. A cash fare is £4 (and Oyster fare £3.50)

The concord between London and New York is 5585km. At the cash fare of the Metropolitan line, that would make the trip £332 (£292 for Oyster fare)

Quite cheaper than the standard fare of a single journey by concord between London and NY at just under £4000!

Now, of cause, if you look at a single journey between two stations of only a km in between then yes, it will cost more than a concorde trip. However, that is the case almost everywhere in the world. The cheapest fare on Frankfurt's U-bahn is £1.30 (slightly cheaper than London's cheapest Tube fare of £1.50 with Oyster), yet it is still more expensive in Frankfurt to travel 1km on the U-bahn than the Concorde (when comparing distances) - like almost everywhere else on earth.

Funny thing is, in most cases you will find that dramatic statistics are often far from reality. They are designed to shock people who don't bother to check things up.

By the way, although it is slightly more expensive for the cheapest London fare on the Tube over Frankfurt. That £1.50 fare will get you further than the £1.30 fare in Frankfurt.

[muppet]

true, dont get me wrong theres alot I love about the system, such as the fact under 18s go free, the vast are covered, the easy connectability and of course, the map. But yeah, the price of a single fare is £4 if youre not paying with the oystercard scheme, that puts many single journeys within the central Circle more expensive than Concorde, (but not the case if youre taking a single from one end of the line to the other end).

[Mercutio]

London's actually building a hell of a lot of massive projects. Some of the government projects did indeed come in late and over budget (Millennium Dome, Wembley, Jubilee Line Extension) but it's not as if they weren't "done". They were done and damn spectacular they are too. Other recent high profile projects such as the London Eye, Tate Modern, Heathrow Terminal 5, the Channel Tunnel Rail Link, Arsenal, Twickenham etc are doing fine. And it's odd that you negatively compare London's Olympic preparations against those of Athens. Athens' Olympic projects came in very late and very much over budget!!

[one very bored guy]

true, dont get me wrong theres alot I love about the system, such as the fact under 18s go free, the vast are covered, the easy connectability and of course, the map. But yeah, the price of a single fare is £4 if youre not paying with the oystercard scheme, that puts many single journeys within the central Circle more expensive than Concorde, (but not the case if youre taking a single from one end of the line to the other end).

My point was almost all networks in the world, when travelling short distances on a single fare would work out more expensive than the Concorde. What makes London so different.

And the prices are not exactly that much more expensive when using Oyster Cards against many other networks. And let's be honest. You have to be pretty stupid to not get an Oyster card and spend £4 instead of £1.50, or very wealthy and not care about the extra cost.