[netdragon]

Does anyone else but me have major problems with GDOT's proposed 285 top-end project between Spaghetti junction, through 400, through 75/Galleria and to Atlanta Road? It will simply encourage more people to drive cars and suburban sprawl. Light rail is a better alternative (note: MARTA is heavy rail)

Showdown!

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/0/04/Ireland_-_Dublin_-_Tram.jpg/300px-Ireland_-_Dublin_-_Tram.jpg VS http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/9/9c/Doppelgelenkbus_01_KMJ.jpg/240px-Doppelgelenkbus_01_KMJ.jpg

It appears GDOT are still in "planning phase" coming up with alternatives, but being the highway buffs they are, it appears they've already pretty much decided on a "Bus Rapid Transit" alternative, and to add lanes through this densely developed area instead of doing what they really should -- improving the flow through the interchanges, and then building light rail to get people off the road. Now, considering that Cobb is pumping money into BRT stations, I can understand their choice to consider BRT, however I don't believe that is the final solution and I definately don't want to see them add lanes on 285 other than a single HOV lane.

I believe that with a N-S MARTA route acting as the main heavy rail line, a light rail "feeder" can come from both 85 and the galleria, that will meet at a station at the 400/285 interchange or North Springs, and from there they can head into Buckhead, midtown, or downtown with a single train switch. The bonus is if they work and live along the perimeter, they will only have to take the light rail.

I believe the GDOT are incredibly short-sited, don't listen to peoples' opinions, and would rather listen to marketing hype that says "Bus Rapid Transit" is like "a train without wheels", which is a bunch of baloney. If light rail were built, which is faster, smoother, and more comfortable, I'd probably use it instead of my normal commute from Smyrna to downtown, but I'm not going to be riding some bus on the HOV lane. Others will be the same way, and the only ones using the BRT will be low-income individuals or people that don't own cars. Light rail (trams, small car trains, etc) has less of a stigma than either BRT or heavy rail like MARTA.

I propose that the state looks into building one HOV lane on the perimeter, avoiding widening the road beyond one lane so it can accomodate the HOV lane without destroying any developments. Then they should improving interchanges, but not do major super-expensive work. Then the state can earmarking the rest of the money for building light rail, with a plan to phase out BRT and/or augment it with a raised light rail within a certain timeframe, say 6 years.

History has shown (in other cities) that BRT isn't as successful as light rail for elliviating congestion. However, BRT isn't the end of the world. What I believe we need to do is push on policy makers to consider BRT an interim solution, simply because it has more momentum right now, and plan for eventually adding light rail as an alternative along 285. Light Rail can reuse the same stations they are building for BRT, if they plan ahead.

Anyway, throwing lanes at a problem isn't a solution, and they definately shouldn't tear down buildings to do it! (Yes, they are considering it!)

See about the plans: http://www.revive285.com

See about the study: http://www.dot.state.ga.us/DOT/plan-prog/planning/studies/i-285/index.shtml

Light rail vs BRT: http://www.lightrailnow.org/facts/fa_brt_2006-08a.htm

Please make comments to GDOT: http://www.revive285.com/publiccomment.asp

Wikipedia: Light rail http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Light_rail Bus rapid transit http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bus_rapid_transit

Another way to make comments: http://remedy-web.dot.state.ga.us/mid-tier/forms/gdot-go-rem/OOC_Contact/Default+Admin+View/?mode=Submit&cacheid=183c1d20

From: http://www.dot.state.ga.us/DOT/plan-prog/planning/studies/i-285/Improvements/Improvements.htm:
http://www.dot.state.ga.us/DOT/plan-prog/planning/studies/i-285/Improvements/Example%20Scenario.jpghttp://www.dot.state.ga.us/DOT/plan-prog/planning/studies/i-285/Improvements/Legend.jpg

[austin356]

Light rail would be stupid on the top end. BRT is the only way to get transit along that route at a feasible cost.

So you want to run a $500,000,000 light rail system on the top end that connects suburbia with suburbia with suburbia? Sounds very stupid at this point in time. Our resources of the such would be much better served by creating commuter rail and expanding marta.

BRT looks good if done right.

http://www.raisethehammer.org/images/electric_tram_01.jpg

Can you tell the difference? This vehicle runs on tires, and the center track is not vital to its operation.


Any transit along the top end will have so few riders that any type of "fixed" solution is just not worth anywhere near the cost.

[Detroit5000]

delete

[cabasse]

^it's almost guaranteed they won't be doing it that way though. practically nobody would be complaining about it not being lrt then, as your picture depicts what brt is supposed to be about. the picture you've used as a suggestion shows a "fixed" solution, with a center guide track and electric catenary.

gdot sucks...

[atlantaguy]

Light rail would be stupid on the top end. BRT is the only way to get transit along that route at a feasible cost.

So you want to run a $500,000,000 light rail system on the top end that connects suburbia with suburbia with suburbia? Sounds very stupid at this point in time. Our resources of the such would be much better served by creating commuter rail and expanding marta.

BRT looks good if done right.

http://www.raisethehammer.org/images/electric_tram_01.jpg

Can you tell the difference? This vehicle runs on tires, and the center track is not vital to its operation.


Any transit along the top end will have so few riders that any type of "fixed" solution is just not worth anywhere near the cost.

Sorry, but wrong, wrong & wrong.

You do realize that the top end connects the two largest edge cities in the Southeast, right? We're talking about over 50 million sf of office and about 250,000+ daytime employees between the two. Add in two thriving regional malls, a large convention center and booming infill residential developments along the entire corridor and you have the ingredients in place to knit it all together with LRT. Both Cumberland & Perimeter are getting denser and more pedestrian oriented, and lend themselves perfectly to street-running LRT between interchanges.

The BRT you show has had multiple issues with the center guideway, no?

I have no problem with true BRT built with the guaranteed eventual retrofit to LRT. If done right, it would attract huge ridership.

[RobMidtowner]

If only we could take the "highway" money we get from the feds and use it for whatever we want...those stupid feds. :koko:

[SteveD]

My apologies for wandering a tad off topic, but I was surprised to learn last year that the "train" system at Hartsfield-Jackson International is actually bus rapid transit (BRT)! Millions of people have traveled on BRT and probably have not been aware of it. Of course, that's a captive audience, with no alternate transit available (save the moving sidewalks), so it's not as if folks utilizing it have an option to do something else. But, that's an example where I would bet upwards of 99 percent of the people riding think they are on a train while they're actually on a vehicle rolling on wheels on a flat surface. Imagine the difference if the recorded voice instead of saying "please hold on, this train is leaving the station...", said, "please hold on, this bus is leaving the station...

[CityFan]

deleted

[CityFan]

[quote]I propose that the state looks into building one HOV lane on the perimeter, avoiding widening the road beyond one lane so it can accomodate the HOV lane without destroying any developments. Then they should improving interchanges, but not do major super-expensive work. Then the state can earmarking the rest of the money for building light rail, with a plan to phase out BRT and/or augment it with a raised light rail within a certain timeframe, say 6 years.[Quote]

It would be naive to think that one HOV and buses can solve trafic problems on I-285 and I-75. If we take 20 % trafic load off, the trafic will remain congested. How much can HOV lane and buses help with the trafic?

[austin356]

Sorry, but wrong, wrong & wrong.

You do realize that the top end connects the two largest edge cities in the Southeast, right? We're talking about over 50 million sf of office and about 250,000+ daytime employees between the two. Add in two thriving regional malls, a large convention center and booming infill residential developments along the entire corridor and you have the ingredients in place to knit it all together with LRT. Both Cumberland & Perimeter are getting denser and more pedestrian oriented, and lend themselves perfectly to street-running LRT between interchanges.

The BRT you show has had multiple issues with the center guideway, no?

I have no problem with true BRT built with the guaranteed eventual retrofit to LRT. If done right, it would attract huge ridership.




So you believe someone is going to get on a train and ride from Cumberland to the Perimeter?

What that is extremely naive. These are suburban office districts. Almost all of their workers come from areas other than along the route. The only real person it would serve is inter-district travel, not to district commuting which is the problem we have. As I read about this, I text messaged my aunt who works at cumberland, I aked her if she had can remember a single time when she ever traveled in her car from Cumberland to the Perimeter center area, and the answer was just as I expected, a flat no. This is how most of the workers are.

Now, if you wanted to plan a row for future rail (15+ years) and build BRT there then that would make sense. But connecting two "commute to" districts is an ineffective use of resources. Before you make this type of connection, you first need to get people to these districts on transit.


Oh, we will connect two malls with transit? So the hell what if there is little residential access? What a big waste of money that will only hurt Atlanta transit. People driving on 285 will see how zero traffic was cut for their trip, even though half a billion USD was invested in the stretch. Suburbanites will then say that transit is not worth the money, and they prefer roads. Every new transit project will be scrutinized by the public, and opinions are yet to be fully formed. If you put up this currently useless line, it would put in jeopardy many future transit projects.


We need commuter rail from Canton to Cumberland to Midtown, we then need to extend marta rail to Alpharetta, then the brain train line, then and only then should anyone look at joining these three lines together with a top end line.

[netdragon]

I have no problem with true BRT built with the guaranteed eventual retrofit to LRT. If done right, it would attract huge ridership.

I agree with this. If "done right", then it'll be sort of like the Montreal subway or the Atlanta airport subway, with smooth, level and dedicated track, running on rubber tires where no one knows the difference. You're also right that these "surburbs" are being turned into true pedestrian-oriented livable communities and cities in their own right. For instance, look at Smyrna's plans, and what Smyrna has already done (http://smyrnacity.com/index.php?pr=Community_Development, http://www.smyrnasplost.com/ and http://www.knowsmyrna.com/).

Like Cabasse said, I don't think GDOT is planning on doing it the right way at this time -- they seemingly want to create long busses running on HOV lanes (and tear down some neighborhoods in the process) and we need to do is convince them otherwise. I'm not trying to create FUD, considering that GDOT hasn't finalized any plans yet, but I don't see anything indicating they are looking at a real comprehensive multi-modal plan, and I know that to prevent momentum, you have to act early before people just decide to settle with what they chose.


It would be naive to think that one HOV and buses can solve trafic problems on I-285 and I-75. If we take 20 % trafic load off, the trafic will remain congested. How much can HOV lane and buses help with the trafic?

With the population explosion we're encountering, no amount of adding lanes is going to solve the problem. More people will choose 285 over 75 and 85 to get into Buckhead and downtown areas. It won't really solve the problem. Adding lanes never has, and the magic number is always 3 (except at interchanges). What happens when you add lanes is more people pile onto the highway.

The interchanges are the real problems, because they are a huge bottleneck, and that's what they need to address. Beyond that, they should look into alternate modes of transportation, instead of cutting into neighborhoods to add lanes. They can add one lane on each side by adding a wall (like 696 in Detroit). They can make that lane HOV. Any more than that will probably require demolition of neighborhoods, at least if they tried to do it along the whole stretch. I think that's a big waste considering it's only a bandaid solution. The other option is double-decking in some areas (which they are considering), but that is extremely expensive and I don't understand if they are going to do that, why not just do elevated LRT instead and focus simply on the interchanges (which will be expensive too, but is more necessary)?

Anyway, the highway obviously can't be ignored, but they need to make sure they don't ignore other modes of transportation in the process, such as LRT or real BRT (not busses running in HOV lanes slapped with the "BRT" slogan).

People will be more willing to use other forms of transit if the state doesn't do a temporary bandaid by adding more lanes.

So you believe someone is going to get on a train and ride from Cumberland to the Perimeter?

I see what you're saying, that in some cases it isn't feasable, but there are plenty of commutors that come from 85, 75, and 400 outside the perimeter that would probably like the opportunity to park at a garage and take light rail. Marietta citizens could park at Delk Road, and then take light rail into downtown via the Perimeter mall station to the MARTA north/south line if it connected along 285 to the Galleria.

I live in Smyrna, and work in downtown, so it wouldn't shorten my travel time (unless 75 gets worse), but it would save my car some wear and tear (I have a manual transmission) and allow me to relax during the commute. It would also save me from unexpected hold ups because of some pile-up on 75 which blocks 3 lanes. I've been made an hour late before by accidents. Light rail + MARTA would be much more reliable. Being able to avoid uncertainties like that would make my life easier.

Now, if you wanted to plan a row for future rail (15+ years) and build BRT there then that would make sense.

I agree there. I want them to plan for light rail (10+ years), not necessarily build it immediately. However, they could save a lot of trouble in the future, if they design the BRT line to be upgradeable to light rail, or even purchase some of the right of ways for light rail, just hold off on building it. I'm just concerned they are putting all their eggs in one basket.


We need commuter rail from Canton to Cumberland to Midtown, we then need to extend marta rail to Alpharetta, then the brain train line, then and only then should anyone look at joining these three lines together with a top end line.

I'm floating a top end line as an alternative to a line heading down 75. e.g. Canton -> Cumberland -> Perimeter Center -> Midtown (with 2 train switches). You get two lines for the price of one, then. You get a route to midtown, and a route along the Perimeter.

Also, I bet people living along Northside are not going to let a line through if GDOT every tries to run one down 75. See illustration:

http://i19.tinypic.com/3y7e3hs.jpg

[atlantaguy]

So you believe someone is going to get on a train and ride from Cumberland to the Perimeter?

What that is extremely naive. These are suburban office districts. Almost all of their workers come from areas other than along the route. The only real person it would serve is inter-district travel, not to district commuting which is the problem we have. As I read about this, I text messaged my aunt who works at cumberland, I aked her if she had can remember a single time when she ever traveled in her car from Cumberland to the Perimeter center area, and the answer was just as I expected, a flat no. This is how most of the workers are.

Now, if you wanted to plan a row for future rail (15+ years) and build BRT there then that would make sense. But connecting two "commute to" districts is an ineffective use of resources. Before you make this type of connection, you first need to get people to these districts on transit.


Oh, we will connect two malls with transit? So the hell what if there is little residential access? What a big waste of money that will only hurt Atlanta transit. People driving on 285 will see how zero traffic was cut for their trip, even though half a billion USD was invested in the stretch. Suburbanites will then say that transit is not worth the money, and they prefer roads. Every new transit project will be scrutinized by the public, and opinions are yet to be fully formed. If you put up this currently useless line, it would put in jeopardy many future transit projects.


We need commuter rail from Canton to Cumberland to Midtown, we then need to extend marta rail to Alpharetta, then the brain train line, then and only then should anyone look at joining these three lines together with a top end line.

I see that you didn't even mention the clusterfuck of a BRT you showed an example of. They have had massive problems with the guideway - but I take it you're a BRT fan, so who cares - right?

So you called your Aunt that works at Cumberland, eh? LOL!!!!! You yourself proposed spending almost the same amount of $$$$ for a lame BRT route along the same corridor that nobody will ride! People don't like buses, and the few "true" BRT lines out there don't have ridership that even merits the cost ensued to build them. Check out the joke of a line in LA down the median of the Century Freeway, or the "Silver Lie" in Boston.

These two districts I mentioned are rapidly urbanizing. At Perimeter, they are tearing down office buildings left and right to build dense condos and apartments. Of course people aren't going to shuttle from one of these edge cities to the other - everything they could possibly want or need is already in the immediate neighborhood. BUT, street running LRT within each edge city between the separate interchanges could be a huge impact to each respective district for congestion mitigation and to further the densification already taking place.

Do you even live in Atlanta?

[whoDean]

An outer loop consisting of some dedicated (and mandated) truck lanes along with interchange upgrades is the true solution to 285 congestion.

[RobMidtowner]

netdragon, I don't mean to sound rude but do you even know the engineering that goes into some of the ideas you're proposing. Designing a roadway is not as easy as saying "just add a lane on the side and put up a wall so it doesn't impact any neighborhoods." Yes, GDOT designs the roads but they have to be approved by the federal government before any money is released to construct it and they have to meet a set of standards. I'm not trying to downplay your ideas, but there's reasons why one alternative is chosen over the rest....it's called engineering judgement.

[cabasse]

^^^alllllllbama.

[netdragon]

netdragon, I don't mean to sound rude but do you even know the engineering that goes into some of the ideas you're proposing. Designing a roadway is not as easy as saying "just add a lane on the side and put up a wall so it doesn't impact any neighborhoods." Yes, GDOT designs the roads but they have to be approved by the federal government before any money is released to construct it and they have to meet a set of standards. I'm not trying to downplay your ideas, but there's reasons why one alternative is chosen over the rest....it's called engineering judgement.

I'm not sure how the GDOT have talked about adding HOV lanes, and a truck lane, plus in some areas they want to have collectors along with improving the interchanges without already having considered the possibility of widening the highway's footprint.

I understand that it takes more than just eyeballing whether an extra lane can fit, but if they could add an extra lane without damaging the integrity of neighborhoods, I think an HOV lane would be a better choice than just another lane because it encourages carpooling, and can be used by busses. Otherwise, I think they should just focus on improving the interchanges, where the real bottlenecks are, and put the rest of their effort into something like rail.

Not all the money comes from the federal government. For instance, Cobb County is funding some of the project in Cobb County.

As far as trucks, I wish they had a rural truck route for them, and that they got off 285 altogether for through traffic.

[ThrashATL]

They are going to stack "through" or "thru" lanes over the top of existing lanes, much like Austin has I-35 done through downtown.

[ajfroggie]

Given the level of truck traffic, not to mention the requirement that through trucks use the Perimeter, I think truck lanes would be a better option than HOV lanes...

[netdragon]

They are going to stack "through" or "thru" lanes over the top of existing lanes, much like Austin has I-35 done through downtown.

Are they going to stack the whole length, or just at interchanges?

While sitting in traffic at the 285/400 interchange this Saturday, I was thinking that much of the problem is that there was only one lane connecting 400 and 285 in each direction. I don't think much more needs to be done than to add lanes to the interchange ramps, and a lot of the traffic would probably disappear.

I wish they could build a rural truck routes far around Atlanta, though, to get them off 285. Even with truck lanes, they'll still create noise and pollution. Yes, some trucks have to come into metro Atlanta, but the rest should stay far away in my opinion.

[netdragon]

I just saw this video (http://www.urscreativeimaging.com/node/32). They are talking about adding the equivalent of 14 extra lanes on the same level (3 collector and two HOV lanes in each direction, plus two barrier lanes in each direction), besides the elevated BRT lanes. I wonder where the heck they theink they are going to pull this extra space from without destroying neighboring areas. For instance, Roswell Road has expensive neighborhoods nearby, and they are talking about adding 14 lanes..

In the area around Power's Ferry, they are discussing elevating the HOV lanes, which is more reasonable. I also like the BRT lanes on the outside better.

[ajfroggie]

My read is 12 extra lanes, not 14. But that's still quite a lot...

[RobMidtowner]

While sitting in traffic at the 285/400 interchange this Saturday, I was thinking that much of the problem is that there was only one lane connecting 400 and 285 in each direction. I don't think much more needs to be done than to add lanes to the interchange ramps, and a lot of the traffic would probably disappear.

It may not be that simple netdragon, you may be experiencing spillback from the intersecting roadway (i.e. the traffic backs up the ramp onto 285 because the traffic on 400 is so bad, not because the ramp doesn't have enough lanes). A traffic study would tell you the real problem.

[atlantaguy]

I think the real problem is that Northsiders use 285 as a local road, often only going one or two exits down. We need more options, but a 12-14 lane expansion will be hideous.

[BardSeed]

Yuck.

You're right, atlantaguy, but really what choice do drivers have up there? From 285 to Johnson Ferry Road you cannot cross the river by car. That's an enormous gap. Add that to all the subdivisions that have no physical relationship to one another except for main feeder roads ...and that's one expensive problem to fix, no matter how they choose to do it.

[Andrea]

Yuck.

You're right, atlantaguy, but really what choice do drivers have up there? From 285 to Johnson Ferry Road you cannot cross the river by car. That's an enormous gap. Add that to all the subdivisions that have no physical relationship to one another except for main feeder roads ...and that's one expensive problem to fix, no matter how they choose to do it.

Those folks should all sell their houses and move back into the city. We've got plenty of roads down here. Can you imagine what a great town we'd have if about half a million new well-to-do residents moved in? Heh.

:D

P.S. I totally agree with atlantaguy's analysis.

[Tombstoner]

... I'm not trying to downplay your ideas, but there's reasons why one alternative is chosen over the rest....it's called engineering judgement.

I thought it was called "politics." :)

[RobMidtowner]

I thought it was called "politics." :)

Unfortunately sometimes "politics" overturn good engineering judgment...and we end up satisficing:

In economics, satisficing is a behaviour which attempts to achieve at least some minimum level of a particular variable, but which does not necessarily maximize its value.

[Mayfd24]

Yet another article (http://atlanta.bizjournals.com/atlanta/stories/2007/03/12/story1.html) about the Northern Arc in today's ABC (subribe only)... I thought this proposal was tossed!!

[netdragon]

I think economics and politics go hand and hand. There are a lot of companies in the highway industry looking to make some money and lobbying very hard.

[CityFan]

I think economics and politics go hand and hand. There are a lot of companies in the highway industry looking to make some money and lobbying very hard.
You got the point. It's so true.

[Chris Creech]

Yet another article (http://atlanta.bizjournals.com/atlanta/stories/2007/03/12/story1.html) about the Northern Arc in today's ABC (subribe only)... I thought this proposal was tossed!!

They're now talking about a new bigger better northern arc.

This one would go much further up north than the original, and be much longer

I wouldn't be surprised to see this passed.

It's being sold as two things 1) metro traffic reduction (getting pass through trucks off 285) and 2) a developmental highway for North Georgia.

And we all know how much the Georgia Legislature love spending big bucks on developmental highways.

I found this from an older article in the ABC:

"The original Arc would have cost more than $2 billion and run about 55 miles along a route paralleling Ga. 20 from I-75 near Cartersville east to I-85 near the Mall of Georgia in Buford, connecting with I-575, Ga. 400, Ga. 316 and I-985 along the way.

The old Arc, which was designed to take truck traffic off Atlanta's heavily traveled I-285 perimeter highway, ran into fierce opposition from area residents who said it would encourage continued urban sprawl.

The new Arc would be constructed farther north, probably north of Lake Lanier -- perhaps along more rural Ga. 53 from Calhoun or Rome east to Gainesville and then on to I-85 -- and could easily cost three times as much due to its greater length and escalating right-of-way costs. It would be built as a toll road and financed through a joint public-private effort. "

Just as a general ROUGH sketch, here's the old one in red and the new one in green.

http://i81.photobucket.com/albums/j213/creech444/arcs.jpg

[Atlriser]

Honestly while I'd hate to see another road going through the North GA mountains....it's very much needed. If it's tolled and paid for partially with those funds I'd have no problem supporting it's development.

Georgia needs more secondary highways much like North Carolina has developed around it to ease traffic flows along the interstate corridors for those using Georgia as a route to other destinations.

[Fiorenza]

I'd like to see it continued westward to Rome and Huntsville.

[Atlriser]

Great idea! It's needed across those sections of GA and AL!

[jcathens]

Thats actually not a bad idea, it needs to continue to Athens then Augusta, and that should be the I-3 not the dumb idea of gutting the mountains to get to knoxville. The other idea of going to Huntsville is good to. Huntsville to Savannah. It can be called I-18

[Chris Creech]

I'd like to see it continued westward to Rome and Huntsville.


Well there is proposed I-22, formerly known as corridor "X".

It will go from Atlanta, through Rome, Northern Alabama, all the way to Memphis.

Who knows when that will ever get started though.

[netdragon]

Well there is proposed I-22, formerly known as corridor "X".

It will go from Atlanta, through Rome, Northern Alabama, all the way to Memphis.

Who knows when that will ever get started though.

Probably never. Cross-state highways rarely ever succeed nowadays. Look at I-384 (a.k.a. "Super 6") that was supposed to run from Hartford to Providence. It took about 30 years until both states finally agree that they'll both build their legs at the same time, and neither wanted to do it until the other agreed. Another part of the problem was wetlands, and the cost of going around them. Back when interstates were first built, they didn't care as much about wetlands.


If they build the Northern Arc, they need to buy up land along neighboring roads to construct a greenbelt to prevent it from causing sprawl, bringing development, and ruining the rural character of the area around the Arc.

[Hybrid0NE]

If they build the Northern Arc, they need to buy up land along neighboring roads to construct a greenbelt to prevent it from causing sprawl, bringing development, and ruining the rural character of the area around the Arc.

and lose all that prime space for new edge cities? How else will places like Ballground, GA become the new generation Perimeter and Cumberland?

[Atlriser]

Actually a lot of the portions of I-22 in north west AL are built to interstate standards as well as portions in TN. MS has 4-laned there sections but they aren't up to standards to be designated. AL has put in funding for the portions that will run from Muscle Shoals to the GA line I believe and has begun engineering work on sections.

I believe GA is the only state that hasn't done anything with their portion of the roadway. I might be wrong about this, but I’m fairly certain GA has done nothing about getting this interstate highway up and running from Memphis to Atlanta. The only issue though is that it would dump more truck traffic onto I-285 then north up I-85 or south/and east through Atlanta. It's needed to help alleviate traffic and route traffic around the major cities in AL & GA. TO run such a highway to I-85 or a spur of some sort from Rome along the proposed new northern northern arc would seem very logical to me. Even one that carried the route to Augusta opening up a roadway for the ports in Charleston and Savannah to not have to pass truck traffic through Atlanta and Birmingham in the southeast but around and into the MS valley seems worthy of the GA Assembly's consideration. Especially considering how large the ports have become and now the joint authority being proposed between GA and SC to create an even larger port just north of Savannah.

[Atlriser]

If they build the Northern Arc, they need to buy up land along neighboring roads to construct a greenbelt to prevent it from causing sprawl, bringing development, and ruining the rural character of the area around the Arc.

It should be a limited exchange highway to help maintain rural areas but I don't think the state should spend money to buy up green space in the portion of the state just because of the roadway. Limiting exits would do this more then buying acreage along each side.

Also, the GA mountains are one of the fastest growing parts of the country and are seen as a hotbed for retirees over the next 30 years competing with Florida for many people moving from the north to the south. Development is occuring everywhere north of Atlanta. Limit the access to designated points and zone properly to cluster this development would be much more efficient and economical for controlling sprawl then buying land by the state.

South Fulton Parkway has tried to maintain it's rural feel while also fostering and catering to an explosion in development and population by these means and to date appears to be doing a fairly good job maintaining a rural feel overall. They've looked at zoning and developmental rights laws all over the country to write up zoning and land use guidelines trying to engineer a better development pattern then what North Fulton has done over the past 30 years. A first for Georgia in attempting to grow rapidly but also not create many of the same problems as those in the rest of metro Atlanta. It remains to be seen if it'll work but appears better then what we have now.

[Mayfd24]

^ I-22 (corridor x) is to ultimately connect Memphis with Birmingham and the only portion not currently under construction is where it will join I-65 in Bham...
Chris, the one your thinking about is Corridor V.. I don't know its current status.. but I believe informations on that is at AAROADS (http://www.aaroads.com/)

[Rail Claimore]

^I was about to say, as a former Huntsvillian, what's being talked about is Corridor V, and that's not quite the routing of the MEM-HSV-ATL interstate.

[kennethdisraili]

I believe that the growth of the inner city as it continues to grow will cut down on so much suburan sprawl, but not much. Atlanta in a way is alot like Los Angeles and you just have to face the truth. Meto Atlantan's LOVE their cars, and even though MARTA is becoming a good rapid transit system, it is still limited in where you can connect to and go. So I say let's build a super great freeway interchange system (like spegetti juction) add HOV, Truck ONLY, and BUS in HOV, and free the freeways like we did in the inner cities system that was demolished and completley rebuilt in 1987, it was quite an undertaking and engineers from all over the world came to see how the system was demolished, rebuilt from scratch, while still remaining open during the massive construction. Let's built it, get it over with and move on to a more intellegent and smooth flowing freeway system. We probably need some Califonia engineers to come here and show Georgia how it is done.:tup:

[ThrashATL]

Those folks should all sell their houses and move back into the city. We've got plenty of roads down here. Can you imagine what a great town we'd have if about half a million new well-to-do residents moved in? Heh.

:D

P.S. I totally agree with atlantaguy's analysis.

You dump a half million people into Atlanta you'd have chaos. There aren't enough roads because very few actually go anywhere and the ones that do just dump into other roads that everyone else is already on. Don't get me started on the school system in Atlanta, they can't handle what they have now either and they're under capacity.

[dante2308]

That video was disgusting... So much pavement. It looks worse than the connector and even wider.

[sabino86]

free the freeways like we did in the inner cities system that was demolished and completley rebuilt in 1987,

That and Tom Moreland = F-R-A-U-D :yuck:

[kennethdisraili]

That and Tom Moreland = F-R-A-U-D :yuck:

Look, we need to grow up about this, L.A. and Dallas have a huge system, and we are so antiquated with 285. We need the "Skybrige stack sytem" like Spegetti Juction, (yes the Tom Morland Interchange) The cloverleaf system is very old back from the mid 1960's, and we need to upgrade. By useing a Stack System, it will take up less room to redo the interchanges, and yes we need a lane dedicated to rapid transit. We have Marta, CCT, and the Gwinnet transit system, and they all tie in to Marta. Less damnage and loss of land be better with a stack system, and oh man the traffic will roll and not slow down winding around the arcaic coverleaves. I have seen this for myself. The skybrides can be two, three, or even four lanes wide feeding from one system into another, preferribly 285. After they complete it , there should be a reduction in sitting in a parking lot for an hour or longer, and IT will reduce our notorius smog problem, and clean up the air.

[netdragon]

I believe that the growth of the inner city as it continues to grow will cut down on so much suburan sprawl, but not much. Atlanta in a way is alot like Los Angeles and you just have to face the truth. Meto Atlantan's LOVE their cars, and even though MARTA is becoming a good rapid transit system, it is still limited in where you can connect to and go. So I say let's build a super great freeway interchange system (like spegetti juction) add HOV, Truck ONLY, and BUS in HOV, and free the freeways like we did in the inner cities system that was demolished and completley rebuilt in 1987...

The only problem with doing things like adding roadway and lanes is they are bandaids. When the highway can handle more volume, more car-centric developments go up around it. It won't take long to fill up these lanes with cars from new condos built atop parking garages. By adding mass transit, you're encouraging car-agnostic development, where people don't need to ride their car to work and building developers cluster condo and office development around the stations as opposed to spread out their developments along arteries. Even in Queens NY, which is very car-centric development, people still ride trains an awful lot and more people commute to Manhatten by train.




Originally Posted by Andrea
Those folks should all sell their houses and move back into the city. We've got plenty of roads down here. Can you imagine what a great town we'd have if about half a million new well-to-do residents moved in? Heh.


You dump a half million people into Atlanta you'd have chaos. There aren't enough roads because very few actually go anywhere and the ones that do just dump into other roads that everyone else is already on. Don't get me started on the school system in Atlanta, they can't handle what they have now either and they're under capacity.

Probably true until there's a real mass-transit grid in Atlanta besides busses. With the beltline going in, though, this may be possible. However, the city is likely to receive new people moving from places like LA, Chicago, and NYC.

[kennethdisraili]

Yes, I agree with you totally. I'm not saying to put 10 lanes in each direction on 285 or 400, but we will still need to rebuild the archaic 1960's cloverleaf interchange system and better transfer traffic from one system to another with the skybridge stack system. I love MARTA, the trains and stations are some of the cleanest in the nation, and it moves fast. I agree MARTA needs to be integrated along 285 just like it travels up 400. And as far as 400 goes, future stations can be added along the route as justified by traffic and growth. The same would be true with 285. Run it in the middle and have stations in the middle with bridges that connect over to a MARTA parking deck. Run HOV, and Bus HOV, and then we should have a good transport system.

[atlantagreg30127]

My suggestions (like the state will jump on these) if I may:

1) Yes, some sort of "Northern perimeter" is needed across the top end. Like many I hate to see it, but it's needed in a metro area that is growing as insanely as Atlanta is (and isn't going to stop doing so).

2) I just don't see BRT going across the top-end doing much good. Car drivers don't go from point A to point G via buses that also have to stop at C, E, and F along the way. BRT is a good alternative for suburban-to-city rush hour options, but I just don't think it'll do much for burb-to-burb stuff.

3) Stacked lanes. Again, another one of those things I hate to see, but may really be needed. The elevated HOV lanes are a good idea. 3 lanes in each direction of HOV (enforced) that are elevated and separated from main traffic lanes would help.

4) People movers. No, not across the top end, but several localized systems. Lots and I mean LOTS of people in the top end area get in their cars at lunch, and drive around very short distances to restaurants or for errands. It's like a third rush hour at lunch and most are going less than 1.5 miles from their offices. Airport-style people mover systems around the congested office complex/shopping areas on the top end (and elsewhere throughout the metro area) would prevent many people from getting in their cars and congesting the roads just for lunch or quick errands during that time frame. I could see something like this working well around the Perimeter mall area, but even around Cumberland, Lenox, Downtown, Gwinnett Mall area, etc.

Just some ideas.

[Buckley]

I don't think the 'extreme' northern arc is that bad of an idea. It would actually follow south of the mountains, so the road (in and of itself) wouldn't intrude on environmenatally sensitive areas; although, it would have to cross Lake Lanier at some point. Such a project would assuredly be given to a private company to build and maintain, meaning this will be a for-profit toll road. The state legislature has been itching to do such a project. Starting from scratch rather than handing off an already built road (GA316) to a private company would probably be the most palatable way to do it, too.

A few resrtictions I would want to see though:

1. Extend it from Rome to Athens at least. I think it would be hard to justify extending it all the way to Augusta, but that would be even better.

2. Limited interchanges. I 75, Ga 400, I 985, I 85, and entrances on either end would be plenty. Service islands could be built at regular intervals to limit the need for sprawling interchanges. If it is a toll road, that will likely be the case anyhow.

3. No billboards.

[BlackAcura]

To clear up a few misconceptions:

First, revive285 top end has not yet determined what alternatives will be tested, let alone determined the locally preferred alternative. Public meetings begin next week and run from April 24th through May 1st. Please stop by to provide input on the proposed screening methodology that will be used to develop alternatives. See www.revive285.com for dates, times, and locations.

Second, the URS Creative Imaging video titled "I-285 Corridor Study Video" that netdragon posted a link to has nothing to do with revive285 top end. It was produced by URS as part of their proposal to Georgia DOT - they are not currently working with Georgia DOT on the revive285 top end project.

[netdragon]

BlackAcura: Sounds like you've been paying a lot closer attention than most people. I'm glad if they aren't going to do something insane like that video. I don't think with my schedule I'll be able to go to the hearings. Can you please let us know the details of it if you go?

[foxmccleod]

From today's AJC.

Public Hearings on I-285 Project

The state Department of Transportation said it will finish another round of open houses on the projected remake of I-285's top end this week. At a meeting from 4 to 7 p.m. on Tuesday, those interested in the project can come to the Chamblee Civic Center at 3540 Broad St. Attendees can see aerial layouts of the study area as it currently exists and give their own opinions — on the corridor, on what should be done, and how.

The "Revive 285" project is studying I-285's northern end between I-75 and I-85 for expansion of the roadway and the interchanges, and is tasked with completing the environmental analysis required for federal funding for such major projects. That means looking at what lies in the possible expansion's path, and gathering public comment.

[BlackAcura]

For those interested, the materials presented at the most recent round of meetings (end of April and first of May 2007) are available from the Revive 285 website. For convenience*, here's the direct link:

http://www.revive285.com/documents.asp

Also, the survey passed out at the meeting can be taken online at:

http://www.revive285.com/publiccomment.asp

* It would be more convenient if they had HTML skills and put anchors in the text.

[vandiver49]

Since GDOT is involved, you know they'll select the BRT option b/c it'll give them the opputunity to lay some asphalt. Unfortunately their BRT will consist of relagating the vehicles to HOV lanes and have them get off Northside Dr. style exits to random bus stations, not the dedicated ROW that would make BRT and attractive option.

And as much as it hurts to admit it, the Outer Perimeter is needed to really eliminate traffic on 285. It should though be tolled, its interchanges limited to major expressways, have a speed limit of 90 mph, and I-75 and I-85 should be multipexeled on the route. This would give 285 back to the residents of ATL, to whom the Perimeter acts as the cities most effective means of travel in and around the city.

[RobMidtowner]

:previous:

Actually, I'm pretty sure they're looking at HOV/BRT lanes that will be barrier separated.

[Roy McDowell]

As far as trucks, I wish they had a rural truck route for them, and that they got off 285 altogether for through traffic.

As a truck driver, it would be nice to by pass the Atlanta traffic back ups but unfortuntaley the city has a huge demand for our trucks to bring in materials and supplies to keep those store shelves stock and the other businesses (industrial, retail etc.) up and running. However, I think a truck lane would help solve part of the congestion problem. The no thru truck traffic within the I285 beltway ordinance they already have is a good idea though. I have a tendancy to sneak in sometimes so I can get a nice dramatic view of the stretched out downtown-midtown skyline. :D

[Stratosphere 2020]

In The Netherlands trucks are obliged to remain at the outer right lane during rush hours. They are not allowed to use other lanes or pass other trucks infront of them.