[vid]

He's insane.

[Spocket]

Whoa. So much about certain posts makes a lot more sense all of a sudden.

[sledhead35]

this is kinda random but there was a good documentry about lrt (past and present) on national geographic last night. i wish i could remember the numbers, but they were talking about how lrt had spurred development in toronto over the last few decades. if anyone watched it and remembers it better, please post some info. i hope katz was watching!:whip:

[Archiseek]

America’s Streetcar Renaissance
http://www.infrastructurist.com/2009/05/04/chart-americas-streetcar-renaissance/

[spiritedenergy]

streetcars would be perfect for Winnipeg to replace the actual bus lines. Trolleys might do it too though.

[wags_in_the_peg]

horse and buggy would be cool too

[Spocket]

horse and buggy would be cool too

:haha:
That's kinda how I view the idea of trolleys and streetcars too. They might work in Winnipeg but how is it a step forward exactly ?

[MalcolmTucker]

Rails induce redevelopment, even if they don't improve actual service levels in speed or frequency.

That being said, with the way Winnipeg seems to act towards development and infill, would council want that?

[drew]

:haha:
That's kinda how I view the idea of trolleys and streetcars too. They might work in Winnipeg but how is it a step forward exactly ?

I think a better question to pose is whether the replacement of the streetcar system with buses in downtown Winnipeg could be considered a step forward, armed with 50+ years of hindsight?

It seemed like a good idea in terms of 1950's urban thinking, but what positives have occurred in the downtown area since the demise of the streetcar?

It may be a case of Winnipeg stepping back so that it CAN start moving forward...so to speak.

[spiritedenergy]

Streetcars are used in Portland with great success, so i wouldn't compare them to horse and buggy:rolleyes:
They would serve perfectly downtown and the central neighborhoods, reducing pollution and making for a far more beautiful cityscape. Streetcars in Toronto are great for example.

[vid]

Street cars in Toronto bunch up and never arrive on time and are usually supplemented by buses because they don't have enough streetcars to meet demand.

Streetcars going through the exchange district would be very pretty though. :)

[thegreattait]

I've always had great luck with the street cars in Toronto. They run regularly and on time and you can cram a lot of people in them. The high floor is kind of an issue and it slows loading/offloading but newer models have low floor access. Also they are used quite often and by a large number of people, I see this as a positive not a negative. Whenever I go to Toronto I always take the 96 rocket bus to the subway and then the subway to the street car. I like to mix things up a little.

[Spocket]

I think a better question to pose is whether the replacement of the streetcar system with buses in downtown Winnipeg could be considered a step forward, armed with 50+ years of hindsight?

It seemed like a good idea in terms of 1950's urban thinking, but what positives have occurred in the downtown area since the demise of the streetcar?

It may be a case of Winnipeg stepping back so that it CAN start moving forward...so to speak.

I see your point but a lot has changed in six decades . In the 50's most cities were far more centralized. Since then cities have sprawled and taken the retail out to the fringes. That being the case , I can't imagine that adding streetcars will really change anything vis-a-vis buses.

[jimj_wpg]

I've always had great luck with the street cars in Toronto. They run regularly and on time and you can cram a lot of people in them. The high floor is kind of an issue and it slows loading/offloading but newer models have low floor access. Also they are used quite often and by a large number of people, I see this as a positive not a negative. Whenever I go to Toronto I always take the 96 rocket bus to the subway and then the subway to the street car. I like to mix things up a little.

I did that once, and I swear I'll never do it again. 90+ minutes ride. And while there was a GO Train station there, it was either not running or not good enough signage to lead people to the platform.

TTC is supposed to have the Blue22 charter train between Pearson and Union Station. but the Nimbys don't want it.

Until the '22 is created it's much faster to take a cab to and from the airport.

[drew]

I see your point but a lot has changed in six decades . In the 50's most cities were far more centralized. Since then cities have sprawled and taken the retail out to the fringes. That being the case , I can't imagine that adding streetcars will really change anything vis-a-vis buses.

^ well it would go a long way in changing the perception of transit from the current "loser cruiser" (bus) to more of a accepted form of transportation.

There is a huge demographic out there that flat out refuses to ride the bus, but would probably consider transit if something like modern streetcars or LRT was an option.

Come to think of it, most people I know flat out refuse to ride a bus. There are only a few people I know who are regular or even casual users of transit in Winnipeg.

[thegreattait]

I did that once, and I swear I'll never do it again. 90+ minutes ride. And while there was a GO Train station there, it was either not running or not good enough signage to lead people to the platform.

TTC is supposed to have the Blue22 charter train between Pearson and Union Station. but the Nimbys don't want it.

Until the '22 is created it's much faster to take a cab to and from the airport.

90+ minute ride,, you sure you took the same route I did, because to me it was all timed perfectly and it all moved really quickly, the rocket bus ususally had very little traffic on its route and then it was right to the subway with came almost instantly, and then from Subway to Street car you are again in an enclosed station and it came timed to perfection just after the subway. So total wait time for transfers was maybe 4 min and there was minimal traffic on either the bus or street car as both had dedicated ROW for some sections of their routes.

[Biff]

I drive to work all the time but last week the car was in the shop so i took the bus. My normal time to work by car 20-25 min. The bus stop is really close to my house and it is an express - 1 transfer on Portage (i waited less than five minutes) and door to door it took 58 min. That is more than double the time and i have free parking at work. The bus offers me absolutely no incentive.

[wags_in_the_peg]

^^^ ditto with me

[hexrae]

Winnipeg Transit doesn't "crosstown" very well. I can drive, drop my wife off downtown, and commute to work near the U of M in 25-30 mins. Meanwhile, when I take the 36 'super express', door to door travel is minimum of 40 mins.

[drew]

For me, I don't drive regularly to work, only if I am going on site or to an inspection.

If my wife drops me off, travel time is about 10 minutes. If I catch the bus (one bus, we live just off Portage) it takes 20 minutes, mostly walking.

When it is not stupidly cold or raining, I usually walk, and it takes 35 minutes door to door, or about an hour on the Assiniboine river trail in the winter.

Obviously transit doesn't work for everyone. But in the west end and Wolseley (where transit does make sense) there is a growing population of "professionals" who could easily become regular transit users if only the perceptions would change.

[jimj_wpg]

90+ minute ride,, you sure you took the same route I did, because to me it was all timed perfectly and it all moved really quickly, the rocket bus ususally had very little traffic on its route and then it was right to the subway with came almost instantly, and then from Subway to Street car you are again in an enclosed station and it came timed to perfection just after the subway. So total wait time for transfers was maybe 4 min and there was minimal traffic on either the bus or street car as both had dedicated ROW for some sections of their routes.

30 minute ride for the Rocket itself through Mississauga highways, and before that a 10 minute wait.

Then going on the subway on the Bloor line (Kipling) to St. George. Then southbound on the University line to King Station.

[1ajs]

so your saying that even in the big cities the transit is not all its cut out to be hah

[hexrae]

Obviously, transit will never win against a personal vehicle in terms of point A to B travel. But, it can definitely be improved in Winnipeg. I guess, at this point, the idea is to make the idea of public transit more 'seksi' to the ordinary Winnipegger.

[Kinguni]

There's lots of room for improvement, that that requires thinking outside the box which Transit's planning department doesn't seem capable of doing. Bottom line is efficiency of operation, and that's at the expense of passenger convenience. There are all kinds of ways to make the system work better, from standardizing running times to an overhaul of the route system. Oh, but BRT is the answer, right? Be lucky if one leg is complete before I retire in 13 or so years. :rolleyes:

[dennis]

When is construction set to begin on the first leg of our BRT (to Jubillee)?

[1ajs]

tender is still out on it

[Biff]

When is construction set to begin on the first leg of our BRT (to Jubillee)?


The land drainage contract was awarded to Nelson River Construction and the first half road reconfiguration and transitway construction closed May 15 and should be awarded soon. Construction is set to start in June. The first phase is from Main to Osborne - the hardest part.

[metonymy]

The tender closing for the Main to Osborne section was extended one week - closes May 22 now.

[Biff]

The tender closing for the Main to Osborne section was extended one week - closes May 22 now.


Thanks for correcting me.:tup:

[metonymy]

Open houses for Stage 1 are coming up next week.

Southwest Rapid Transit Corridor Project – Stage 1
Two open houses are planned for the public:

Monday May 25th from 4 – 8 PM
at the Masonic Memorial Temple
420 Corydon Ave (Osborne Junction)

Wednesday May 27th from 4 – 8 PM
At the Winnipeg Convention Centre
375 York Ave (Room 2H)

At the event you will be able to view information about this exciting new project and provide valuable feedback.

[metonymy]

Nelson River wins with $7.7 million for Main to Osborne section, narrowly beating Bayview ($8.2 million) and Borland ($8.4 million).

[1ajs]

theres an open house at this moment at confusion corner
and another on wensday at the convention center

[jimj_wpg]

Open houses for Stage 1 are coming up next week.

At the event you will be able to view information about this exciting new project and provide valuable feedback.

Excuse ME, but there is nothing "exciting" about Bus "Rapid" Transit, except if you're a shill for New Flyer or WT administration.

[jmt18325]

There is something exciting about it because it's progress. Also, it's exciting because the route is being built so that it can be converted to light rail at a later time. We have to take baby steps you know.

[wags_in_the_peg]

I didn't see ANYTHING in the Freepress today about this...maybe I missed it. Anyone go?

[Biff]

There was a big ad in the Free Press on Saturday. I went to the open house. Lots of people, every one was pretty positive. Of the 3 transit stations on the first phase - two are more like our existing glass bus stops but on steroids, nothing really impressive. The one major, enclosed station is a part of the Osborne St overpass. It will be able to handle three buses traveling each direction. All in all it looked pretty good for whatever i was expecting. I guess there is only so much you can do with BRT.

[Only The Lonely..]

There was a big ad in the Free Press on Saturday. I went to the open house. Lots of people, every one was pretty positive. Of the 3 transit stations on the first phase - two are more like our existing glass bus stops but on steroids, nothing really impressive. The one major, enclosed station is a part of the Osborne St overpass. It will be able to handle three buses traveling each direction. All in all it looked pretty good for whatever i was expecting. I guess there is only so much you can do with BRT.

Was there any talk of an elevated downtown people mover?

Just curious..

[Biff]

^^^ No, and i have no idea how the Transitway would connect with it with any degree of convenience.

[jimj_wpg]

There is something exciting about it because it's progress. Also, it's exciting because the route is being built so that it can be converted to light rail at a later time. We have to take baby steps you know.

Why WASTE $ for an almost total rebuild from a busway to a rail rapid transit when you can save hundreds of millions of dollars and just install rail the FIRST TIME?

[jimj_wpg]

There was a big ad in the Free Press on Saturday. I went to the open house. Lots of people, every one was pretty positive. Of the 3 transit stations on the first phase - two are more like our existing glass bus stops but on steroids, nothing really impressive. The one major, enclosed station is a part of the Osborne St overpass. It will be able to handle three buses traveling each direction. All in all it looked pretty good for whatever i was expecting. I guess there is only so much you can do with BRT.

Lots of people = 70

I would have expected 3 or 4 or 5 times that many.

But I guess the citizens of Winnipeg have become so apathetic because WT has lost the vision for Transit here.

Time to replace WT with another organization that is maybe provincially-run that has some semblance of a REAL vision for REAL rapid transit in Winnipeg, not for some el cheapo bus highway.

Peace.

[jmt18325]

Why WASTE $ for an almost total rebuild

Isn't it being designed for a relatively easy conversion to LRT? It doesn,t really matter what you say though, because there's no question that BRT is an improvement over what we have.

[Biff]

Lots of people = 70

I would have expected 3 or 4 or 5 times that many.

But I guess the citizens of Winnipeg have become so apathetic because WT has lost the vision for Transit here.

Time to replace WT with another organization that is maybe provincially-run that has some semblance of a REAL vision for REAL rapid transit in Winnipeg, not for some el cheapo bus highway.

Peace.

I was there right when it opened and the room was full when i left about half hour later. I can't say how many people came afterwords but i will trust you on that. It is too bad there weren't more, i guess this shows how interested Winnipeggers are with this ho-hum proposal. That and the fact that it doesn't really effect anyone directly or go through anyone's back yard.

[jimj_wpg]

Isn't it being designed for a relatively easy conversion to LRT? It doesn,t really matter what you say though, because there's no question that BRT is an improvement over what we have.

Has Ottawa converted its Transitway to an LRT yet? They were talking abut it 3 years ago, but nothing has come of it yet. It's all just talk.

Are you John Bonsall, or someone who works for the busway industry?

People, don't let this 'jmt18325' deceive you. Read the experience of OCTranspo on busways. They're a complete FAILURE.

http://www.lightrailnow.org/myths/m_otw001.htm

[Spocket]

People, don't let this 'jmt18325' deceive you. Read the experience of OCTranspo on busways. They're a complete FAILURE.

[/URL]

Rubbish.
The Transitway in Ottawa has only one major flaw : It's TOO SUCCESSFUL. So successful is it in fact that now solutions must be found to mitigate the impact of its over-use.

[thegreattait]

You have to take a look at when the article was written. At that time I think the information and the conclusion they try to sustain holds true. However many conditions have helped play into its success in recent years. $1.43L gas last summer was probably a good driving force.

I think the better question to ask is how well would this system be performing if it was LRT from the start and how would the costs have compared to building it and running it over the course of that time period. Then finally you need to look at what the cost to upconvert the current system will be. How much of that past infrustructure will now be wasted.

If Winnipeg can skip the BRT and go straight to LRT will this be a better solution? Will ridership increase faster then what BRT would? will lifecycle costs be lower in the long run? Will TOD be greater thus generating more taxes to offset construction costs?

These are the questions I would like to see the city address. If LRT isn't the solution then let me know why it isn't. Validate the responses and give the people the information they desire.

[metonymy]

Another contract is out for tender (http://winnipeg.ca/MatMgt/FolderContents.asp?FOLDER_NAME=310-2009&YEAR=2009), this time to relocate a bunch of tracks at Fort Rouge Yards where the BRT tunnel crosses under.

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_RnG65PCpMOs/Shxhy7w7S4I/AAAAAAAAAtk/Cq-i9SuDbsc/s400/Fort+Rouge+Yards.jpg
http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_RnG65PCpMOs/Shxhy7w7S4I/AAAAAAAAAtk/Cq-i9SuDbsc/s1600/Fort%2BRouge%2BYards.jpg

[vid]

Only 70 people? An open house about where sewers are going on our waterfront drew 300 a couple weeks ago.

Has Ottawa converted its Transitway to an LRT yet? They were talking abut it 3 years ago, but nothing has come of it yet. It's all just talk.

That's more likely because the local government in Ottawa is (compared to other large Canadian cities) pretty corrupt and ineffective.

[Blurgle]

yes its very difficult. Though I think we should just go with a series of gondolas, and keep the city flooded year round. All these frequent floods really make life difficult.

I live in Elm Park. Them's fightin' words. :)

[Rambam]

Lots of people = 70

I would have expected 3 or 4 or 5 times that many.

But I guess the citizens of Winnipeg have become so apathetic because WT has lost the vision for Transit here.

Time to replace WT with another organization that is maybe provincially-run that has some semblance of a REAL vision for REAL rapid transit in Winnipeg, not for some el cheapo bus highway

I can assure that more than 70 people attended the open houses. In fact, significantly more people attended each of them for a grand total approaching the mid hundreds. That is a fact.

[p.horosh]

All pessimism asside, honest and true facts show that the city of Winnipeg perpetually thinks about addressing civic and urban issues with a "what is the least we can do" approach. More vision is needed.

I know it costs a lot more but why not LRT instead of a (as you put it) bus highway?

Some serious changes need to be made in the way our "hell bent on sprawl", "vision is a luxury" polititians govern our city.

[1ajs]

problem is though we don't have enuff people at city hall to look after the city when it comes to proper planning the ones we already have are overwelmed as it is

[JayM]

http://myride.winnipegtransit.com/assets/72/rt_colour_sm.jpg
Southwest Rapid Transit Corridor – Stage 1 Project
http://myride.winnipegtransit.com/en/rapid-transit/southwest-rapid-transit-corridor-stage-1-project/
Southwest Rapid Transit Corridor Context Map
http://myride.winnipegtransit.com/assets/60/5_-_Southwest_Rapid_Transit_Corridor_Context_Map_Thumbnail.jpg
http://myride.winnipegtransit.com/assets/49/5_-_Southwest_Rapid_Transit_Corridor_context_Map.pdf

Southwest Transitway – Stage 1: Project Plan
http://myride.winnipegtransit.com/assets/62/7_-_Project_Plan_Thumbnail.jpg
http://myride.winnipegtransit.com/assets/52/7_-_Project_Plan.pdf

Stations
Osborne Station
http://myride.winnipegtransit.com/assets/63/9_-_Osborne_Station_Thumbnail.jpg
http://myride.winnipegtransit.com/assets/54/9_-_Osborne_Station.pdf

Harkness Station
http://myride.winnipegtransit.com/assets/64/10_-_Harkness_Station_Thumbnail.jpg
http://myride.winnipegtransit.com/assets/56/10_-_Harkness_Station.pdf

Project Timeline
http://myride.winnipegtransit.com/assets/67/15_-_Project_Timing.jpg

Construction Phasing
http://myride.winnipegtransit.com/assets/61/6_-_Stage_1_Construction_Phasing_Thumbnail.jpg
http://myride.winnipegtransit.com/assets/50/6_-_Stage_1_Construction_Phasing.pdf

all images and content copyright city of winnipeg www.winnipeg.ca

[1ajs]

wonder if we could move the train museum over to the old vulcan iron works building on southerland and run a spur to it again and making it so that place could become a hub of train restoration its got the overhead cranes... and thus freeing up space at union station for our future lrt

[Boreal]

A big smile sweeps across my face when I say, 'Osborne Station'. I'm really, really looking forward to this, perhaps more so than any other project currently underway in the city or province.

[1ajs]

so is this brt station adition going to mess with clearance under the osborn st underpass?

[Kris22]

Seems like a good plan. I'm actually excited to take the bus in 2011.

Noticed that the site of the current masonic temple is labelled "future development." Maybe the city is hoping they'll sell so something better can go there?

The two proposed Fort Rouge station locations sure seem hard to get to. They aren't really near anything...

[1ajs]

probly for park and ride (fort rouge sites)

[Spocket]

Seems like a good plan. I'm actually excited to take the bus in 2011.

Noticed that the site of the current masonic temple is labelled "future development." Maybe the city is hoping they'll sell so something better can go there?

The two proposed Fort Rouge station locations sure seem hard to get to. They aren't really near anything...

Generally the stations serve as transfer hubs rather than 'stops' if you understand my meaning. They'll be busy despite their location simply because so many routes will feed into them. That's how it's supposed to work anyway.

[Only The Lonely..]

Deal struck on transit corridor
Land swap eyed between city, car dealership

By: Bartley Kives | Winnipeg Free Press - 11/06/2009 1:00 AM

Winnipeg plans to buy land from one Pembina Highway auto dealership and hand it to another as part of a $5.75-million plan to remove the biggest obstacle in the path of the southwest rapid-transit corridor.

Since November, city hall has been in talks to acquire portions of 11 private properties between The Forks and Jubilee Avenue to make way for the 3.6-kilometre, $138-million first phase of a bus corridor to be constructed over the next three years.

While most of the land in question amounts to narrow edges or tiny corners of private properties, three of the parcels facing expropriation are significant: part of a parking lot behind Corydon Avenue's Masonic Memorial Temple, a former Warsaw Avenue frat house that serves as office space for Canada One Vacations, and a large segment of Pembina Chrysler's parking lot.

City council has set aside $12.7 million to acquire the properties in question, ideally through negotiations as opposed to expropriation. But the acquisition of the Pembina Chrysler parking lot proved difficult because the dealership's franchise may be revoked if it cedes too much land to the city.

After months of negotiations, city real-estate managers negotiated a novel solution: The city will buy Pembina Highway land now serving as the home of used-car dealership Autotown and hand the property to Pembina Chrysler as compensation for the loss of part of its parking lot.

On Wednesday morning, city council's executive policy committee approved the purchase of the Autotown land at 222 Pembina for $5.75 million, a sum that will cover both the cost of the property and compensation for loss of business while the used-car dealership moves to a new location.

"The price we're paying is based on the value of the land as well as the costs associated with the business disruption," city real-estate division manager Ray Klassen said. "All parties are in agreement with the proposal... (which) provides everyone with the property they need to resolve the acquisition of the land involved with the southwest bus corridor."

The city's purchase of the Autotown property will proceed after city council approves the deal on June 24. The 10-year-old dealership and garage, which has spent four years at the Pembina location, has an opportunity to expand its business at a new location, according to a real-estate division report.

Autotown co-owner Chris Dyck declined to comment on the deal before council makes its final decision. His business employs 22 people, he said.

Pembina Chrysler owner Bernie Clement, whose business supports 70 families, said he too is looking forward to the formal resolution of the deal.

The city remains in negotiations with the Masonic Memorial Temple and Canada One Travel, Klassen said.

Construction on the southwest rapid-transit corridor is slated to begin in earnest in July.

[dennis]

I'm looking at the overhead view of osborne station and can't seem to find the CNR tracks (main line). Where will the railway bridge be?

[Kinguni]

I'm looking at the overhead view of osborne station and can't seem to find the CNR tracks (main line). Where will the railway bridge be?

Same place it is now. The Transit bridge will be immediately north (downtown side) of the CN rail bridge.

[Kinguni]

The one thing they really don't mention in these busway plans is what happens when the buses encounter the problem traffic congestion areas downtown. They have to use Main Street from Queen Elizabeth II Way to Graham Avenue. That means the outbound buses will be waiting for all the left turning traffic at Broadway in the afternoon and I can see losing 5 minutes on each route just there. So much for the time saved. Same thing inbound in the morning. No mention of a way to get those buses through all the Main street traffic to turn left at Graham Avenue.

And the there's the whole Vaughn Street traffic nightmare, both at Portage with traffic and then at Graham with pedestrians and more buses than can be quickly moved through the intersection. This proposal has even more buses using an already congested bus corridor without mention of ways to improve the flow. I'm sure it can be done, but it bothers me there's no mention.

A good thing is it will take some of the buses out of Osborn Village, and I'm sure that a lot of the buses dead-heading back to the Osborne transit base will be making use of the busway rather than tying up traffic at Confusion Corner after rush hour.

I see it being good overall, especially the Preliminary Route Network Plan (http://myride.winnipegtransit.com/en/rapid-transit/preliminary-route-network-plan/), but they need to figure out how all those routes are going to move effectively in the above mentioned areas.

[cslusarc]

I've read the preliminary route network plan map. I do have some concerns.

1. There will no longer be any north-south bus service on Donald St/Smith St over the Midtowne Bridge towards Osborne Junction.

2. The busway has an on/off ramp at Warsaw Ave but not any other midpoints limiting the busway from interacting with not busway routes.

3 Osborne St from York Ave to Osborne Junction will see less service

4 Staford Loop terminating routes like the 84 and 86 will loose their high level of connecting opportunities that exist today to/from the 37/61/62/63/80/81

[1ajs]

Osborne Village road work prepares way for Rapid Transit
CJOB News Team reporting
6/20/2009

The City has announced that work on Osborne Village roadways will begin Monday to make way for for the rapid transit corridor.

The city announced Friday morning that work will begin on Donald Street - from Osborne Street to Wardlaw Avenue - and on Stradbrook Avenue, between Donald and Main.

Improvements will be made to the affected roadways and provide needed space for the rapid transit corridor.

Two north-bound and two south-bound lanes will remain open on Donald at all times while construction is underway.

[JayM]

Osborne Village road work prepares way for Rapid Transit
CJOB News Team reporting
6/20/2009

The City has announced that work on Osborne Village roadways will begin Monday to make way for for the rapid transit corridor.

The city announced Friday morning that work will begin on Donald Street - from Osborne Street to Wardlaw Avenue - and on Stradbrook Avenue, between Donald and Main.

Improvements will be made to the affected roadways and provide needed space for the rapid transit corridor.

Two north-bound and two south-bound lanes will remain open on Donald at all times while construction is underway.

They have Harkness and Donald nicely torn up in the left lane.

[Only The Lonely..]

They have Harkness and Donald nicely torn up in the left lane.

I've been trying to figure out why they need to tear up Donald. Would the bus not be able to use the existing road?

Or is this where the flyover to the rail lines will go?

[DowntownWpg]

They have Harkness and Donald nicely torn up in the left lane.
And now the sidewalk on that side has also been demolished.

[1ajs]

well they are retieing into it were the st used to meet up eventualy i would imagin there willbe a fly over to the cn station be prity cool if it ever happens

[Nigel]

Wow. This is depressing. Saskatoon,a city significantly smaller than Winnipeg, will be planning for LRT in the not too distant future, while Winnipeg is setting up our crappy poor-man's BRT? Something is very wrong with this picture.

http://www.planetsmag.com/content.php?vn=6&is=22&an=797&sc=2

Also:

Plan now for light-rail, forum hears

Saskatoon could use old rail lines to cut costs

By Jeremy Warren, The StarPhoenixApril 4, 2009



Proponents say a light-rail transit system should be built in the city, but it could be decades before the first car leaves the station.

Until then, local governments should use existing railways and create plans to build passenger lines to reduce greenhouse-gas emissions, said two mass transit proponents at the Road Map 2020 sustainable transportation forum.

"The CP and CN Rail corridors and right of ways in Saskatoon are potential gold mines for an eventual light-rail transit line," said FutuRail associate George Wooldridge on Friday.

"There isn't the financing or the population base for a mega-project like this right now, but what we do propose is the incremental development of an LRT in Saskatoon."

FutuRail estimates Saskatoon needs 400,000 people before an LRT makes sense.

Using existing rail corridors -- Sutherland through Innovation Place and downtown past 22nd Street -- in the city can keep the cost of building a light-rail system low enough to make it feasible for Saskatoon, added Wooldridge.

The city has explored the possibility of moving the CP and CN switching stations outside of the city, leaving the existing lines empty.

Plan now to modify the lines, and save a headache later when the city's population hits a tipping point, Friday's audience was told.

"Crisis prevention now, rather than crisis management later," Wooldridge told the audience at TCU Place.

Roadmap 2020 is a partnership between the Meewasin Valley Authority, the City of Saskatoon and the Saskatchewan Environmental Society.

FutuRail is a group born from the coalition of local governments that wanted to buy a portion of railway between Regina and Davidson that CN planned to abandon.

It's that rail line that former MLA Peter Prebble wants the province to buy, perhaps under the Saskatchewan Transport Company, and re-establish a passenger line between Saskatoon and Regina.

"It's a good time for the province to step in and purchase the line," said Prebble.

Using rail lines to decrease car traffic cuts down on greenhouse-gas emissions, especially if the province institutes mandatory use of inter-city transport for public service and Crown corporation employees, said Prebble.

The proposed mandatory use provision could also apply to STC buses between both cities, but only if the buses arrive earlier.

Currently, buses between Saskatoon and Regina arrive at 11:15 a.m. in either city.

An earlier arrival would better accommodate public sector and industry employees, said Prebble, a longtime NDP MLA in Saskatoon.

The province could look beyond alternate transportation to keep cars off the roads and reduce harmful emissions. Tax incentives for video conferencing investments would reduce the need for travel, said Prebble.

He also suggested lowering the speed limits on highways to 90 km/h.

"This is a highly unpopular idea, but would give us a 20 per cent reduction of greenhouse-gas emissions," said Prebble.

In the question-and-answer session, Prebble was reminded that the passenger train and frequent bus service between Regina and Saskatoon failed to gain popularity.

"If I remember correctly, that started in the '70s and was phased out in the next decade," said Prebble.

"The problem there was the lack of downtown-to-downtown service. We can fix those past mistakes."

jjwarren@sp.canwest.com

This article is another reminder of how depressing it can be to live in a city with poor vision and planning like Winnipeg :(

[Andy6]

This article is another reminder of how depressing it can be to live in a city with poor vision and planning like Winnipeg :(

Some guy went to a meeting in Saskatoon and said he'd like to see an LRT although he admitted that it is obviously far in the future. Hard to see how that vaults Saskatoon ahead of Winnipeg on the LRT front.

[1ajs]

not the first time sasktoon lrt idea has come up nigel

[madsad]

Winnipeg is light years ahead of Saskatoon in public transit. Even taking out of consideration the shovels already in the ground on the busway, Winnipeg is still ahead.

The City of Saskatoon has no plans, of any sort, kind, shape, or variety, for light rail.

[Nigel]

The City of Saskatoon has no plans, of any sort, kind, shape, or variety, for light rail.

I say Saskatoon is lightyears ahead of Winnipeg for two big reasons:

1. They are planning (or at least talking about) a rapid transit system before they reach the ideal size, not after the fact that they are 3/4 of a million in population and are now scrambling to bring a system into place that they'll bring in any old system and label it "rapid" when it's really just more buses; they'll be ready for it when the time comes.

and

2. The Saskatoon city coucil are planning (or at least talking about) for an LRT system from the get go so they won't have to spend all the money on crappy, pseudo rapid BRT system just to spend more money years down the road to upgrade to something more efficient in transporting people since they already have it in place; money well spent and saved.

[madsad]

I say Saskatoon is lightyears ahead of Winnipeg for two big reasons:

1. They are planning (or at least talking about) a rapid transit system before they reach the ideal size, not after the fact that they are 3/4 of a million in population and are now scrambling to bring a system into place that they'll bring in any old system and label it "rapid" when it's really just more buses; they'll be ready for it when the time comes.

and

2. The Saskatoon city coucil are planning (or at least talking about) for an LRT system from the get go so they won't have to spend all the money on crappy, pseudo rapid BRT system just to spend more money years down the road to upgrade to something more efficient in transporting people since they already have it in place; money well spent and saved.

City's website is HERE (http://saskatoon.ca/). Go search yourself. No plans for light rail. Period.

Any talk is just talk and is cheap. CN and CP are clinging to their rail rights-of-way like crazed, rabid cat-ladies, and will never let them go. Motorists have city council by the balls, and will not allow light rail to take lanes away from traffic.

Saskatoon has already implemented a crappy, pseudo-rapid BRT system called DART. It has been around since 2006 and has contributed to massive gains in ridership (along with the UPASS). DART routes 50 and 60 are the busiest in the city and continue to require overload buses, an occurrence that never happened prior to DART/BRT service.

Winnipeg's BRT service will be superior as it will have a dedicated right-of-way through the most congested portions of the route. Saskatoon's DART buses get stuck in traffic.

[MalcolmTucker]

^Calgary got some LRT ROW from the rail ways, but of course we didn't ask to build along the main line. For that, they let the city use air rights.

A large portion of the SE LRT in Calgary will once again be along existing rail lines.

[1ajs]

it should be interesting to see how it evolves over time considering we have union station right downtown.... that would be prity cool though geting off there and hoping on a quick shuttle over to portage or graham bus coridoors

[newflyer]

I say Saskatoon is lightyears ahead of Winnipeg for two big reasons:

1. They are planning (or at least talking about) a rapid transit system before they reach the ideal size, not after the fact that they are 3/4 of a million in population and are now scrambling to bring a system into place that they'll bring in any old system and label it "rapid" when it's really just more buses; they'll be ready for it when the time comes.

and

2. The Saskatoon city coucil are planning (or at least talking about) for an LRT system from the get go so they won't have to spend all the money on crappy, pseudo rapid BRT system just to spend more money years down the road to upgrade to something more efficient in transporting people since they already have it in place; money well spent and saved.

I am not sure of where you live, so I will assume you don't have the complete Winnipeg background. Winnipeg has been studing and planning the possibility of having various forms of rapid transit for many decades. It has included impressive monorail running over Portage ave, LRT, BRT and even a subway. If anything this proves that a city can do all the planning and talking it wants, but until the shovels hit the ground it really is just talk. I wish Saskatoon all the best in its future plans, but trust me its plans are very far from reaching reality. Between then and now I can assure you there will be many more plans to come.

[viperred88]

City's infrastructure deficit identifies additional Rapid Transit routes
CJOB's John Copsey reporting
7/8/2009

Winnipeg's Executive Policy Committee unveiled a document Wednesday outlining the city's existing and new infrastructure deficit totaling 7.4 billion dollars.

The report identifies a 3.6-billion dollar deficit for future possible infrastructure projects, including Stage Two of the Southwest Rapid Transit corridor.

Surprisingly, the report also identified additional rapid transit corridors servicing the city's airport, southeast, and northeast.

Transcona city councillor Russ Wyatt says additional transit lines were always a part of the city's future vision...



Wyatt says the Province needs to come to the table to discuss funding options that are fair and equitable to Winnipeg compared to other municipalities.

__________

I am excited about this vision whether it becomes reality is a different story.

[1ajs]

i was already aware of this plan on the books gee only need to talk to one of the planners to get a hint of what they are planing on doing

[vid]

Not everyone knows everyone like you do. :P You should share their secrets more often!

[1ajs]

Not everyone knows everyone like you do. :P You should share their secrets more often!
i have mentioned it in the past year

[Biff]

I'd like to see the ROW they have planned to get to the airport.

[jimj_wpg]

:previous:

:cheers:

From Portage Ave. via Sharp Blvd. would be one option. Why Sharp Blvd.? The W.A.T.S. report of 1968 recommended a cloverleaf interchange for the Western Freeway there, so perhaps the City already has R.O.W. near there.

[h0twired]

:previous:

:cheers:

From Portage Ave. via Sharp Blvd. would be one option. Why Sharp Blvd.? The W.A.T.S. report of 1968 recommended a cloverleaf interchange for the Western Freeway there, so perhaps the City already has R.O.W. near there.

How many traffic lanes on Portage would be eliminated by it?

[1ajs]

do the elevated thing u could run a elevated line right off the cn elevated line

[Andy6]

:previous:

:cheers:

From Portage Ave. via Sharp Blvd. would be one option. Why Sharp Blvd.? The W.A.T.S. report of 1968 recommended a cloverleaf interchange for the Western Freeway there, so perhaps the City already has R.O.W. near there.

As I've mentioned before, Sharp Blvd. is the remnant of what was planned 100 years ago as an early version of the Perimeter Highway. It was named after the mayor who I suppose must have been the proponent of the plan. Inkster Blvd. is another part of the proposed Sharp Blvd. route.

So it could well be that even as late as 1968 the City continued to have plans to convert Sharp Blvd. into a major route, the way that it did had done with Bradford Street, which was converted into the Century Street portion of Route 90.

[1ajs]

wheres sharp bld located andy?

[Andy6]

wheres sharp bld located andy?

In St. James, around Deer Lodge Hospital.

[1ajs]

o ok

[vid]

They planned a perimeter highway 15 years before cars became commonplace?

I just looked on a map, Sharp Boulevard is tiny. Would never have guessed what it was for just be looking at it. Inkster Boulevard looks more like a ring road, and Monroe across the river looks like it might have been a continuation of that plan?

[newflyer]

There are still plans to upgrade Sharp Ave linking Sturgon and east side of the Airport campus. This will be nessesary as time goes on. The city has reserved the land for many decades and it is still on the books.

something like this...
http://img16.imageshack.us/img16/8809/silveraveexp.jpg

[Donovanf]

interesting article about BRT from NYT

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/07/10/world/americas/10degrees.html?_r=1&partner=rss&emc=rss&src=ig

[wags_in_the_peg]

interesting article about BRT from NYT

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/07/10/world/americas/10degrees.html?_r=1&partner=rss&emc=rss&src=ig

Bogata Columbia is a city of 7 million people, so hard to compare that system with our needs for 700,000 people and possibly one day 1 million people.

I LOVE this picture though. We NEED one of these on Portage in front of POLO PARK sooooo bad, I sit at that light every bloody day waiting for people to cross the street. Either that or move the transit stop to Polo Park parking lot and force the buses to make exit onto St. James.

Also these would be good to have crossing MAIN near the Forks / North West company. That x-walk gets used heavily right now and will (maybe) use more when Upper Fort Garry get redeveloped.

http://graphics8.nytimes.com/images/2009/07/09/world/28334949.JPG

[sledhead35]

"Bogata Columbia is a city of 7 million people, so hard to compare that system with our needs for 700,000 people and possibly one day 1 million people."

thats one way of looking at it. another way is: that article rattled of some pretty astounding numbers. i see it as almost gaurenteed growth for newflyer. asssuming they will capitalize on this HUGE opertunity, we will get a much larger work force. people move here for blue and white collar jobs= more demand for rapid transit systems.

[Nigel]

Yes, the article is interesting, however the title is indicative of "poor cities" that can't afford anything beyone more glorified busses, which is a sad vision for Winnipeg which can do much better than buses for rapid transit.

[wags_in_the_peg]

thats one way of looking at it. another way is: that article rattled of some pretty astounding numbers. i see it as almost gaurenteed growth for newflyer. asssuming they will capitalize on this HUGE opertunity, we will get a much larger work force. people move here for blue and white collar jobs= more demand for rapid transit systems.

:tup: :tup: :tup:

[madsad]

Yes, the article is interesting, however the title is indicative of "poor cities" that can't afford anything beyone more glorified busses, which is a sad vision for Winnipeg which can do much better than buses for rapid transit.

In terms of investment in public transit infrastructure in Canada (Winnipeg and the rest of the prairies, specifically) "poor" might be a good descriptor. To hold ourselves above poorer cities (such as those in South America) is not only pejorative, but hypocritical.

The BRT mode has allowed many South American cities to move forward in dealing with congestion, air quality, and social equity issues, at manageable costs, without having to rely on international loans to deal with the high cost of rail.

[jimj_wpg]

I LOVE this picture though. We NEED one of these on Portage in front of POLO PARK sooooo bad, I sit at that light every bloody day waiting for people to cross the street.

If Winnipeg builds a subway one day along Portage Ave. there already is a station right inside Polo Park -- in the basement of the Sport Chek store near Sears. Before that it was Blue Cross' file storage area I guess.

[dennis]

The sport check station. With a sale sooo lucrative that we had to go underground. The subway cars could also have items on sale, That would make sportcheck products available around town.

[1ajs]

aww u mean mcnally...