[Andy6]

I don't see how the Winnipeg airport would generate anywhere remotely close to the amount of traffic that would justify an LRT connection to downtown. Maybe in the year 3000 or something. LRTs cost hundreds of millions. It would be cheaper to hand out cab fare to everyone who needs it, which doesn't appear to be very many given the lack of taxis around the airport.

[jmt18325]

given the lack of taxis around the airport.

What? I think about 1/3 of the taxi fleet is parked there most of the time.

[viperred88]

I don't see how the Winnipeg airport would generate anywhere remotely close to the amount of traffic that would justify an LRT connection to downtown. Maybe in the year 3000 or something. LRTs cost hundreds of millions. It would be cheaper to hand out cab fare to everyone who needs it, which doesn't appear to be very many given the lack of taxis around the airport.

well if you merge the 14 and 15 bus routes from downtown to the airport it would work, heck even though I hate Polio Park I would even loop it there. It would be the shortest bus route in the city for an expensive LRT system that this city can't even get even though edmonton, calgary and I think ottawa has one and they are not really dense cities.

[1ajs]

I don't see how the Winnipeg airport would generate anywhere remotely close to the amount of traffic that would justify an LRT connection to downtown. Maybe in the year 3000 or something. LRTs cost hundreds of millions. It would be cheaper to hand out cab fare to everyone who needs it, which doesn't appear to be very many given the lack of taxis around the airport.


as jtm mentioned a 1/3 of the fleet sits at the airport at any given time in a taxi stand area just sitting there waiting their turn to go up to the doors to pick up a fare

[Spocket]

Andy's right.
Don't forget that the reason people take cabs from the airport instead buses is because :
1 - Visitors don't know where they're going to begin with.
2 - They have luggage to drag around
3 - Door to door service

[Andy6]

What? I think about 1/3 of the taxi fleet is parked there most of the time.

I'll take your word for it, but usually there seem to be just one or two outside the doors, as opposed to dozens swarming around in Toronto, where you might have 100 people in line for taxis at a busy time of year. But maybe they're all waiting in some place I've not noticed. Anyway, it seems unlikely that a business traveller is going to want to get on an LRT rather than just take a taxi, especially given the very small fare required to get to a downtown hotel.

[grumpy old man]

Calgary airport to downtown -15kms
Edmonton airport to downtown -30kms
Ottawa airport to downtown -16kms
Winnipeg airport to downtown -10kms

[jmt18325]

But maybe they're all waiting in some place I've not noticed.


Probably. There is an area where all the taxis and limos gather. As some leave, others take their old spot in front of the doors.

[Keng]

Prior to and during construction the taxi's used to be held in front of PLH/ the fueling company. Near the storage tanks east of the new terminal. The airport had/has a taxi dispatcher onsite that sends in replacement cabs to the front of the terminal as needed, and they follow the airline schedule as much as possible. During busy periods there used to be are as many as 50 cabs waiting in the holding corral. Of course this is from a few years back, maybe the location has changed since.

[Kinguni]

It's still there. (http://maps.google.com/?ie=UTF8&hq=&hnear=43+Alder+Bay,+Winnipeg,+Division+No.+11,+Manitoba,+Canada&ll=49.902603,-97.219037&spn=0,359.992501&t=h&z=17&layer=c&cbll=49.902708,-97.219281&panoid=MxFEykrYIZb05FD4McQQag&cbp=12,21.65,,1,6.55)

[1ajs]

Calgary airport to downtown -15kms
Edmonton airport to downtown -30kms
Ottawa airport to downtown -16kms
Winnipeg airport to downtown -10kms


6.5kms from the front of the terminal to portage and main in a striaght line

if u drive its 8.4kms
http://maps.google.ca/maps?hl=en&tab=wl

[RTD]

6.5kms from the front of the terminal to portage and main in a striaght line

if u drive its 8.4kms
http://maps.google.ca/maps?hl=en&tab=wl

Okay, now do all the other cities that GOM mentionned if you want to be bloody nitpicky about it. :rolleyes:

[Riverman]

I'll take your word for it, but usually there seem to be just one or two outside the doors, as opposed to dozens swarming around in Toronto, where you might have 100 people in line for taxis at a busy time of year. But maybe they're all waiting in some place I've not noticed. Anyway, it seems unlikely that a business traveller is going to want to get on an LRT rather than just take a taxi, especially given the very small fare required to get to a downtown hotel.Toronto has a very efficient express bus (192) that runs from the airport to Kipling station, airport to downtown in 40 minutes for a $2.50 token.

An LRT is planned for Eglington to the airport.

[BKB]

It is an extremely long wait for a cab during peak times especially during charter season (winter).

[grumpy old man]

It is an extremely long wait for a cab during peak times especially during charter season (winter).

In my dozens and dozens (hundreds?) of arrivals at Pearson I can count on one hand having to wait for more than a few minutes for a cab or limo.

[grumpy old man]

An LRT is planned for Eglington to the airport.

They still talking about that? I lived in Toronto from 1990 - 2006. It seems to me they were talking about rapid transit from the airport every single year.

It'll be easier now that there is one major terminal versus the three terminals.

[MalcolmTucker]

Toronto has a very efficient express bus (192) that runs from the airport to Kipling station, airport to downtown in 40 minutes for a $2.50 token.

An LRT is planned for Eglington to the airport.

The LRT just had its funding cut by the provincial government. And the express bus has something like 2000 users a day, which represents only what planners call captive riders.

Direct node to node transit is much more effective, which is what Winnipeg should do - a premium service for a premium price between the airport and the biggest 1 or two hotel/convention clusters. In Toronto it is able to operate at a profit - in Winnipeg probably not, but the benefit would be really worth more than the subsidy for a couple buses.

[ILYR]

One has to remember that transit to and from the airport is not just for passengers. Winnipeg international and the surrounding support industry employ a lot of people. If you include Canada Post, cargo operations and all of the aerospace industry the number of people working around the airport is even higher. Many of these people do not drive. I frequently take the bus to and from the airport and I can tell you 80% of the people that get on the bus are airport employes.

[MalcolmTucker]

I will quote myself:
^ All those workers have free parking and come from all over the city. Also, their destinations are very spread out amongst the airport/ soon to be centre port lands. All in all hard to serve with transit.

[1ajs]

I will quote myself:
face palms

hes not talking about those hes talking about whats in that area to the terminal....

[MalcolmTucker]

face palms

hes not talking about those hes talking about whats in that area to the terminal....

But still, it is not enough. It isn't enough at airports with 30 million pax and all the associated workers. It isn't enough in Winnipeg. Transit links to airports are awful performers and should be the last link in the chain, not the first.

If it is built first, it will be the only piece ever built.

[1ajs]

wonder if having the link in any other city has helped them in anyway at all?

[MalcolmTucker]

wonder if having the link in any other city has helped them in anyway at all?

Of course it helps - but it is still not the best use of money for a new system. Serve the densest concentration of jobs to the most residential possible at the cheapest price. Slowly you build more expensive links until your network is rather comprehensive. In this way you never destroy the political will to continue construction - you build it up over time.

[1ajs]

true^^

[BKB]

In my dozens and dozens (hundreds?) of arrivals at Pearson I can count on one hand having to wait for more than a few minutes for a cab or limo.

I was referring to YWG.

[Svenn]

CTV article regarding Phase 2 of rapid transit...

http://winnipeg.ctv.ca/servlet/an/local/CTVNews/20100401/wpg_rapid_transit_100401/20100401/?hub=WinnipegHome

[Kinguni]

CTV article regarding Phase 2 of rapid transit...

http://winnipeg.ctv.ca/servlet/an/local/CTVNews/20100401/wpg_rapid_transit_100401/20100401/?hub=WinnipegHome

Too bad Karen Rocznik can't get facts straight.

Close to a year and a half ago the first phase of the project got the go ahead. Crews are now constructing a bus and bike lane from downtown over Confusion Corner and all the way to Jubilee Avenue.

The Active Transportation path isn't going over Osborne, not is any of it going over Confusion corner, nor is the BRT line even going downtown since it starts at Queen Elizabeth II Way. Maybe I'm trivializing, but I hate bad reporting.

[jmt18325]

There's really not even a story there. It's just about what some people think.

[Kinguni]

That's true. Like I said, bad reporting.

[Reed Solomon]

The most telling thing is this (granted unscientific) online poll that says people want either light rail or better roads. No rapid transit is better than bus rapid transit (http://winnipeg.ctv.ca/servlet/HTMLTemplate?Results&id=181475&pollid=181475&tf=ctvlocal/ctvNewsSub.html&cf=ctvlocal/winnipeg.cfg&subhub=VoteResult&poll_name=CTVNewsWPGHome)

[The Jabroni]

The most telling thing is this (granted unscientific) online poll that says people want either light rail or better roads. No rapid transit is better than bus rapid transit (http://winnipeg.ctv.ca/servlet/HTMLTemplate?Results&id=181475&pollid=181475&tf=ctvlocal/ctvNewsSub.html&cf=ctvlocal/winnipeg.cfg&subhub=VoteResult&poll_name=CTVNewsWPGHome)

Even though most Winnipeggers fail to see the logic, it's understandable that it is an unscientific poll anyways.

[Reed Solomon]

Even though most Winnipeggers fail to see the logic, it's understandable that it is an unscientific poll anyways.

NHL or nothing; Light Rail or nothing. I can respect that.

I think its probably surprisingly accurate despite the fact that it is an unscientific poll.

I lean towards my own personal conspiracy theory that we probably could do light rail, but Transit has twisted the numbers to make it seem unfeasible. Why? I dunno. To get cheap New Flyer buses? Because they fear light rail might show the inadequacies in other areas of transit and force them to improve?

[JayM]

NHL or nothing; Light Rail or nothing. I can respect that.

I think its probably surprisingly accurate despite the fact that it is an unscientific poll.

I lean towards my own personal conspiracy theory that we probably could do light rail, but Transit has twisted the numbers to make it seem unfeasible. Why? I dunno. To get cheap New Flyer buses? Because they fear light rail might show the inadequacies in other areas of transit and force them to improve?

Maybe New Flyer needs to introduce LRT into there product line.

[The Jabroni]

Maybe New Flyer needs to introduce LRT into there product line.

Perhaps they should. If they want to continue in their business of mass transit, they should expand on the idea.

[Kinguni]

Southwest Rapid Transit Corridor Project – Stage 1 Open House

On Wednesday April 7th (from 4pm – 8pm) Winnipeg Transit will be holding a Drop-In Open House for information about the Southwest Rapid Transit Corridor Project – Stage 1.

The Open House will be held at the Fort Rouge Leisure Centre at 625 Osborne Street.

At the event you will be able to view detailed plans for the stations (Fort Rouge, Osborne, and Harkness), plans for the Active Transportation paths, and provide valuable feedback.

http://myride.winnipegtransit.com/en/

I'd go if I weren't going to be busy driving a bus the entire time.

[Riverman]

Maybe New Flyer needs to introduce LRT into there product line.It would require them to re-tool their entire plant. Not gonna happen.

An LRT plant is already in operation in Thunder Bay.

[vid]

That would require choosing Bombardier after a competitive bidding process, though. And if Seimens offers for Winnipeg what it did for Toronto (construction of a new plant near the city) it will be a very tight decision, just like TTC's streetcar purchase last year. It probably wouldn't hurt Newflyer to get into the competition though. The only other competitor to Seimens was some little company from the UK whose only prototype, IIRC, caught fire.

[Reed Solomon]

The only other competitor to Seimens was some little company from the UK whose only prototype, IIRC, caught fire.

just sell it as winter-proof heating.

[MalcolmTucker]

It would require them to re-tool their entire plant. Not gonna happen.

An LRT plant is already in operation in Thunder Bay.

The LRT production line didn't exist before the TTC contract (and likely still doesn't). As for Winnipeg, the order would be so small the city/province would have to pay a big premium to get an industrial offset. Plus the buy america deal and the coming can/eu trade deal preclude this kind of provision.

[ILYR]

The LRT production line didn't exist before the TTC contract (and likely still doesn't). As for Winnipeg, the order would be so small the city/province would have to pay a big premium to get an industrial offset. Plus the buy america deal and the coming can/eu trade deal preclude this kind of provision.

If newflyer was to add a LRT division it would require a multibillion dollar investment and years to develop the technology. I also don't see them buying an existing company. This is not a realistic venture for newflyer.

[ssiguy]

Although I have always seen the benefits of a TRUE BRT system {ie Ottawa} this seems more like a New Flyer rapid transit line. This is true also due to Winnipeg extreme cold, snow and propensity to flood.
LRT is fashionable these days but not always economical. I understand your mayor was looking into elevated systems......is that still the case? Winnipeg could build an efficent, appealing, rapid transit system using elevated systems like Urbanaut or Mega/MicroRail tech. They can be automated or driven and are CHEAPER to build than even BRT.

[The Jabroni]

Although I have always seen the benefits of a TRUE BRT system {ie Ottawa} this seems more like a New Flyer rapid transit line. This is true also due to Winnipeg extreme cold, snow and propensity to flood.
LRT is fashionable these days but not always economical. I understand your mayor was looking into elevated systems......is that still the case? Winnipeg could build an efficent, appealing, rapid transit system using elevated systems like Urbanaut or Mega/MicroRail tech. They can be automated or driven and are CHEAPER to build than even BRT.

If Winnipeg were to expand on the LRT idea (which would be very nice btw), then it would mostly remain at-grade (ground level), rather than elevated, except places where it could be necessary.

[1ajs]

did anyone go to the meeting this eve?

[jmt18325]

No, but I found the pictures:

http://winnipeg.ctv.ca/gallery/html/wpg_transit_plans_100406/photo_0.html

[c vist]

No, but I found the pictures:

http://winnipeg.ctv.ca/gallery/html/wpg_transit_plans_100406/photo_0.html

I wonder why they didn't show this one:
http://i28.photobucket.com/albums/c222/cvist/exterior1_final.jpg

Trying to get the model on Google Earth, but have to dumb it down a little first because it's too complex.

[JayM]

Nice rendering there cvist

[trebor204]

Winnipeg Transit has the display boards on its web site.

Right Click to Download (Warning 40MB PDF File)

http://myride.winnipegtransit.com/assets/241/Southwest_Rapid_Transit_Corridor_-_Stage_1_-_April_2010_Public_Open_House_Boards.pdf

[trebor204]

DELETED - Double Post

[JayM]

City spending $1.2M renovating Greyhound site (http://www.winnipegfreepress.com/local/city-pays-12m-for-downtown-greyhound-site-90460434.html)

By: Bartley Kives

10/04/2010 1:00 AM | Comments: 2

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THE City of Winnipeg will spend $1.2 million to convert the former Greyhound bus terminal into a Winnipeg Transit terminal.

On Monday, council's downtown development committee will approve a plan to sublet the old downtown Greyhound terminal on Balmoral Street north of Portage Avenue from the University of Winnipeg.

The city will not pay rent, but will spend $50,000 a year to share the cost of security, lighting, cleaning and maintenance inside the terminal, according to a report. Winnipeg Transit won't have to pay property taxes on the new terminal, as the university is already leasing the land from the owner of 491 Portage Ave.

The city has set aside $1.2 million in its capital budget forecast to transform the terminal. Construction will begin this spring and should be completed in time classes start in September.

Eight transit routes serving the University of Winnipeg will operate out of the terminal and more may be added "for future rapid-transit routes that will terminate" at the university, the report said. Students and other downtown transit users will be able to wait inside for buses during the winter and after dark.

The university plans to redevelop the inside of the terminal into a student centre, which will have a restaurant, bookstore and other services.

Greyhound moved its Winnipeg operations to Richardson International Airport last year.

Meanwhile, Winnipeg Transit's spring schedule starts on Sunday. Transit service is adjusted four times a year to match seasonal changes in ridership. For route and schedule information, visit www.winnipegtransit.com or call 311.

bartley.kives@freepress.mb.ca

Republished from the Winnipeg Free Press print edition April 10, 2010 B4

[Reed Solomon]

Just wondering if the whole "buses and cyclists only" section on the other side of the U of W will serve any purpose now that this side is going to be a "transit hub". Not that it serves any purpose now what with the 55 going the long way around. I'll have to assume the 14 will go through the hub. Does this mean people won't be able to catch the bus at Portage Place by the downtown YMCA?

very odd.

[Kinguni]

There are currently 8 routes using Balmoral as a downtown terminal, so, without seeing any hard details of what's planned, I can't see there being any other routes using this hub until BRT comes online. Sad thing is, only 2 of those routes are all day routes and only one collects fares (47). Maybe they plan to move more all day routes there? I guess we'll find out late summer when the fall changes are announced.

[hexrae]

Mayor Katz says 'explore light rail transit' (http://www.winnipegfreepress.com/breakingnews/Katz-says-explore-light-rail-transit-91051209.html)

By: Bartley Kives

16/04/2010 1:44 PM

Winnipeg Mayor Sam Katz has upped the ante in his rapid-transit dispute with the province by formally asking city staff to explore the idea of developing a light-rail system.

The city is in the midst of building the first phase of the Southwest Rapid Transit Corridor, a $137-million bus corridor that will run 3.6 kilometres from Queen Elizabeth Way near The Forks to Jubliee Avenue at Pembina Highway. All three levels of government are contributing to the project, which is slated to be completed next year.

But Katz does not want to proceed with plans to build the $220 million second phase of the busway, a six-kilometre extension to Bison Drive near the University of Manitoba. The province has offered up at least $63 million toward the project, but the mayor wants to spend the funds on road and bridge projects instead.

Earlier this year, Katz called on Premier Greg Selinger to fly with him to Ottawa to lobby the Harper government to fund an LRT system. But the province has been cool to the idea. Senior Manitoba MP Vic Toews, meanwhile, said Ottawa stands with the province on rapid-transit issues.

Now, Katz plans to present executive policy committee with a motion to explore the idea of light-rail transit. That motion will come before EPC on Wednesday and then proceed to council on April 28.

The city is already in the midst of exploring LRT. The city and province are spending $1.15 million on a transportation study as part of Our Winnipeg, a $3.2 million effort to develop a new long-term planning framework for the city.

[DowntownWpg]

More proof that Shady Sammy may just be one of the most sorry, pathetic excuses for a mayor in Winnipeg history...

Mayor Katz says 'explore light rail transit'

By: Bartley Kives, Winnipeg Free Press

16/04/2010 1:44 PM

Winnipeg Mayor Sam Katz has upped the ante in his rapid-transit dispute with the province by formally asking city staff to explore the idea of developing a light-rail system.

The city is in the midst of building the first phase of the Southwest Rapid Transit Corridor, a $137-million bus corridor that will run 3.6 kilometres from Queen Elizabeth Way near The Forks to Jubliee Avenue at Pembina Highway. All three levels of government are contributing to the project, which is slated to be completed next year.

But Katz does not want to proceed with plans to build the $220 million second phase of the busway, a six-kilometre extension to Bison Drive near the University of Manitoba. The province has offered up at least $63 million toward the project, but the mayor wants to spend the funds on road and bridge projects instead.

Earlier this year, Katz called on Premier Greg Selinger to fly with him to Ottawa to lobby the Harper government to fund an LRT system. But the province has been cool to the idea. Senior Manitoba MP Vic Toews, meanwhile, said Ottawa stands with the province on rapid-transit issues.

Now, Katz plans to present executive policy committee with a motion to explore the idea of light-rail transit. That motion will come before EPC on Wednesday and then proceed to council on April 28.

The city is already in the midst of exploring LRT. The city and province are spending $1.15 million on a transportation study as part of Our Winnipeg, a $3.2 million effort to develop a new long-term planning framework for the city.

http://www.winnipegfreepress.com/breakingnews/Katz-says-explore-light-rail-transit-91051209.html

****

Lost track on how many times Sammy has changed policy and vision regarding the rapid transit project since he took office. Sure, LRT is better, but it certainly is not helpful for our rapid transit project in general when he one day champions a certain plan, and the next day pisses all over it and champions a different plan. He has done this many times before.

Additionally, Sammy has numerous times whined about the province not helping out with funding (fill in the blank) project. After having earlier cancelled a rapid transit plan begun by Murray, Sammy later brought forward basically the same plan and the prov agreed to partly fund both phases of the BRT line for this project. In addition to the first phase already under construction, the prov agreed to $63-M for the second phase... now we're to understand that Sammy wants to take that $63-M and use it for other things (road work/potholes)? This is the same Mayor who played the same flip-flop game with various stadium plans, after having championed many of the different stadium sites he lastly threw his support behind the UofM site and boasted how 'it will be connected to the rapid transit line.' Well, surprise, guess not! Not in the next few decades anyway if Sammy has his way. Clearly, Sammy's word doesn't count for shit.

The fact that he probably can't shift that $63-M of provincial money out of phase two aside, due to MOU or other type of agreements in principle; Sammy has been a major disgrace with how he conducts himself as Mayor, and this is yet another example of Sammy's Shame.

[0773|=\]

Flip-flopping usually happens when you don't see the value in an alternative option until you actually see examples of it with your own eyes. Then you begin to champion that idea as if you've known it for years, but create a very different image for yourself with constituents.

Edmonton has had a similar backlash with our Mayor now proposing low-floor, urban-format LRT lines when we've already got multiple lines on a high-floor model. But he's visited Dublin and a few other European cities in the meantime, so apparently this new style is supposed to be the "Beez Neez"... we'll have to see how it handles snow, I guess.

[WpG_GuY]

More proof that Shady Sammy may just be one of the most sorry, pathetic excuses for a mayor in Winnipeg history...

Lost track on how many times Sammy has changed policy and vision regarding the rapid transit project since he took office. Sure, LRT is better, but it certainly is not helpful for our rapid transit project in general when he one day champions a certain plan, and the next day pisses all over it and champions a different plan. He has done this many times before.

Additionally, Sammy has numerous times whined about the province not helping out with funding (fill in the blank) project. After having earlier cancelled a rapid transit plan begun by Murray, Sammy later brought forward basically the same plan and the prov agreed to partly fund both phases of the BRT line for this project. In addition to the first phase already under construction, the prov agreed to $63-M for the second phase... now we're to understand that Sammy wants to take that $63-M and use it for other things (road work/potholes)? This is the same Mayor who played the same flip-flop game with various stadium plans, after having championed many of the different stadium sites he lastly threw his support behind the UofM site and boasted how 'it will be connected to the rapid transit line.' Well, surprise, guess not! Not in the next few decades anyway if Sammy has his way. Clearly, Sammy's word doesn't count for shit.

The fact that he probably can't shift that $63-M of provincial money out of phase two aside, due to MOU or other type of agreements in principle; Sammy has been a major disgrace with how he conducts himself as Mayor, and this is yet another example of Sammy's Shame.


Alright, calm down lol, I missed your point; i couldnt help but count how times you used the word Sammy in there...9!

I do agree, Katz is a douche, if they can’t commit to LRT then at least follow through with the BRT, don’t use the 63M from the province for bridges and roads.

[Reed Solomon]

Lost track on how many times Sammy has changed policy and vision regarding the rapid transit project since he took office.

He's actually been pretty consistent in preferring LRT rather than Bus rapid transit. I'd personally be thrilled if they went with LRT and scrapped everything for LRT.

The fact that he probably can't shift that $63-M of provincial money out of phase two aside, due to MOU or other type of agreements in principle; Sammy has been a major disgrace with how he conducts himself as Mayor, and this is yet another example of Sammy's Shame.

My only problem is he scrapped Murray's plan for essentially the same thing. Though I do think improvements to the rest of transit (ie LED signs, GPS, air conditioning, etc) were more of an immediate need than the Bus rapid transit down pembina. Now that the rest of Winnipeg Transit seems to be edging towards the 21st century, we'll see what happens. I'd rather not have another delay though. They need to get things moving.

[Kinguni]

No one at Winnipeg Transit has any near future LRT plans. Katz is just putting on an election year show.

[Kinguni]

And from the Winnipeg Sun (http://www.winnipegsun.com/news/winnipeg/2010/04/16/13620701.html):“According to the industry, BRT would be $38 million per kilometre. LRT at street level would be $50 million per kilometre and LRT above the ground would run at approximately $70 million per kilometre,” Katz said. “You don’t have to be Einstein to see that LRT does not cost six times that of BRT, which is what some councillors have been saying.”

So Katz says doing LRT would cost at most double the cost of BRT, but I'd wager 3 times or more the cost of the current phase 1 and 2 plan, considering the line would need to be extended right into the U of M on one end and into the downtown core at the other.

Interesting, but for once Coun. Jenny Gerbasi might be on the money:“Transit is not among the priorities, whatsoever. So even if we build LRT, when are we going to build it? Twenty years from now?” said Gerbasi (Fort Rouge-East Fort Garry). “It’s a distraction from the fact that he’s taking the rapid transit money away, and putting it into roads.”

[JayM]

Is it me or anyone here think that the Bus/Cyclist dedicated lanes should run 7am till 7pm? To me it doesn't seem practical to have the current specified times. They should reevaluate these designated times. Either yes the whole day or just remove it completely. Trying to make the bus faster or just run smoother would help if they had a bigger portion of the day just for bus/bikes in the dedicated lane. You know turning in and out because of parked cars is such a fun time. especially during those insane times.

[Boreal]

To say that Mr. Katz has changed his vision would imply that he had one to begin with. I'm sure Mr. Katz is a decent man, but as a poltician and civic leader, he is what he has always been in his professional life - a promoter. He's all teeth.

[RTD]

I'll be the first to admit, I am no real fan of Sam, at all. I think he's a poor politician and poor civic leader. However, if I do agree with him on one single issue, it's that LRT is better for the LONG-TERM future of the growth in transit in the City of Winnipeg. I know it's a very long shot, but I hope we get LRT instead of BRT.

[JayM]

I'll be the first to admit, I am no real fan of Sam, at all. I think he's a poor politician and poor civic leader. However, if I do agree with him on one single issue, it's that LRT is better for the LONG-TERM future of the growth in transit in the City of Winnipeg. I know it's a very long shot, but I hope we get LRT instead of BRT.

As noted in earlier posts that BRT line currently being built to LRT specs, so any future LRT can be placed. If I am wrong.

[MalcolmTucker]

^ Both Ottawa's and Seattle's BRT were 'designed' for conversion. Seattle's tunnel even had rails in it, but they had to pull them out and lower the floor since LRT specs had changed. In Ottawa, they put in a bit too many bends, and didn't leave enough straight lines for stations.

Having a road engineer tell you it is 'designed' for light rail conversion is pretty weak, unless they are actually designing for LRT first and then taking out what is necessary for LRT and putting down a road I would doubt the ability to convert at reasonable expense in the future.

[c vist]

Is it me or anyone here think that the Bus/Cyclist dedicated lanes should run 7am till 7pm? To me it doesn't seem practical to have the current specified times. They should reevaluate these designated times. Either yes the whole day or just remove it completely. Trying to make the bus faster or just run smoother would help if they had a bigger portion of the day just for bus/bikes in the dedicated lane. You know turning in and out because of parked cars is such a fun time. especially during those insane times.

You probably should have attended the Active transportation workshops held last month around the city and given this as feedback ... the City seems to be listening to concerns right now.

[JayM]

You probably should have attended the Active transportation workshops held last month around the city and given this as feedback ... the City seems to be listening to concerns right now.

Yes I should've attended. I am sure there are going to be a few more.

[1ajs]

wow

Should Winnipeg continue to investigate light-rail transit?

Yes. Light rail is the way to go. 59%
No. Stick with plans for bus rapid transit. 22%
Winnipeg doesn't need bus OR rail rapid transit. 18%
Total Votes: 3469

from winnipeg free press daily poll
http://www.winnipegfreepress.com/polls/Should-Winnipeg-continue-to-investigate-light-rail-transit-91091919.html?c=y&pollSubmitted=y&oid=1&viewResults=y&mr=1&cid=8500584&pid=91091919

[Biff]

wow

Should Winnipeg continue to investigate light-rail transit?

Yes. Light rail is the way to go. 59%
No. Stick with plans for bus rapid transit. 22%
Winnipeg doesn't need bus OR rail rapid transit. 18%
Total Votes: 3469

from winnipeg free press daily poll
http://www.winnipegfreepress.com/polls/Should-Winnipeg-continue-to-investigate-light-rail-transit-91091919.html?c=y&pollSubmitted=y&oid=1&viewResults=y&mr=1&cid=8500584&pid=91091919


I know it is another meaningless poll, but i am surprised at the results. I am actually surprised that anyone outside of this forum here in Winnipeg would want something like LRT or even care - and by such a large margin, considering it's cost.

...again, i know it is meaningless but interesting none-the less.

[nordique]

for a free press poll that is pretty impressive. i thought everyone who participated/commented on the site were against EVERYTHING, and hated their precious tax dollars being spent on even the most essential of services.

[The Jabroni]

Free Press comments are almost as bad as Youtube comments, tbqh. >_>

That is surprising though.

[viperred88]

My one concern when we are building these brt corridors that are to be converted to LRT, is I hope we don't get the same problem as they did in Ontario (I think Ottawa). They built it with way too many curves that ones they went to LRT from BRT they didn't realize that LRT needed a straighter corrider.

[1ajs]

rolls eye just look at the map its a straight run prity much

[Bdog]

My one concern when we are building these brt corridors that are to be converted to LRT, is I hope we don't get the same problem as they did in Ontario (I think Ottawa). They built it with way too many curves that ones they went to LRT from BRT they didn't realize that LRT needed a straighter corrider.

Sir.Humphrey.Appleby just posted this a few posts ago...

[RTD]

I know it is another meaningless poll, but i am surprised at the results. I am actually surprised that anyone outside of this forum here in Winnipeg would want something like LRT or even care - and by such a large margin, considering it's cost.

...again, i know it is meaningless but interesting none-the less.

Perhaps people are finally realizing that, in the LONG-TERM, LRT is the way to go as the city grows populationwise. I'm very excited and optimistic about this for the future of Winnipeg!!!! :cheers:

[jmt18325]

I'm so happy that we're going to delay something we can actually get while we pine for something that we won't get and can't afford. Yay for us.

[RTD]

I'm so happy that we're going to delay something we can actually get while we pine for something that we won't get and can't afford. Yay for us.

That is the only part that I agree with you on, and you damn rights I'm happy about it. I would be more than willing to have my tax dollars going towards something that will provide Winnipeggers with a viable rapid transit solution for the LONG-TERM growth of transit and population of the city. I'm sick and tired of all the naysayers in this city saying it can't or shouldn't be done.

You have your vision for the city, and I have mine. Let's just agree to disagree on that, shall we?

[jmt18325]

I'm rather sick and tired of us studying this. We've found over and over that BRT is the way to go, and here we are again. We have two levels of government ready to move forward on BRT...and now, we'll have nothing for years and years and years. Yes, yay for us indeed.

[RTD]

I'm rather sick and tired of us studying this. We've found over and over that BRT is the way to go, and here we are again. We have two levels of government ready to move forward on BRT...and now, we'll have nothing for years and years and years. Yes, yay for us indeed.

I'll agree with you that this has been studied to death. But this should have come years ago during the 60s and 70s when plans for light rail were in the works, but never acted on. The city is growing population wise, and I'm hearing studies are showing costs are coming down on building LRT, which is great news for a city like Winnipeg. I'd rather have nothing than BRT. Do it right or don't do it at all. I think in the LONG-TERM in terms of social benefits and population growth, and I feel strongly that LRT is the way to go for a growing city like Winnipeg.

Recent polls are also showing that Winnipeggers are warming up to LRT over BRT, which is great news in my opinion. Onward and upward for transit in Winnipeg!!! :)

[jmt18325]

If we can do LRT, great. I'm not convinced that we can, and I think we might be wasting time. It's not that I wouldn't love to do LRT, it's that I think we need to be realistic.

[JayM]

These damn studies to see what is affordable and what is right is just plain stupid, I think they mentioned it is like 100,000 for the studies. I'm pretty sure as indicated on previous posts and by most with 1/16th of a brain BRT is a start then proceed with LRT. Ten years of doing studies is enough already.

[vid]

The studies lobby really has its teeth sunk into municipal politics in this country. So sad.

[1ajs]

it does not help the curent mayors budies do the studies

[vid]

That's exactly my point. It's like that here too. A lot of the people hired to do these studies are close to the people on council.

[viperred88]

I'll agree with you that this has been studied to death. But this should have come years ago during the 60s and 70s when plans for light rail were in the works, but never acted on. The city is growing population wise, and I'm hearing studies are showing costs are coming down on building LRT, which is great news for a city like Winnipeg. I'd rather have nothing than BRT. Do it right or don't do it at all. I think in the LONG-TERM in terms of social benefits and population growth, and I feel strongly that LRT is the way to go for a growing city like Winnipeg.

Recent polls are also showing that Winnipeggers are warming up to LRT over BRT, which is great news in my opinion. Onward and upward for transit in Winnipeg!!! :)

I totally agree and if only we had more people in this city who thought the same, but again this typical negative Winnipeg mentality.

[Spocket]

Katz is just wasting money for political purposes. Again.
As we all know , this has all been studied to death. If the cost of LRT has come down so dramatically in the past few years , how much would it really cost us to find out what the price tag is ? Hasn't anybody at City Hall ever heard of a pocket calculator ?

For once , Gerbasi is right.

[hexrae]

Studying Light Rail to Death? (http://www.planetizen.com/node/43916)

The story just links to the Free Press, but I thought it was interesting that it got mentioned at planetizen.com (This site is usually USA-centric).

[Smron]

They will probably have to study the findings of this latest study.

[The Jabroni]

They will probably have to study the findings of this latest study.

...only to find out that the latest study would require more studying, before a new study is released on how good the next study will be.

:cool:

[Reed Solomon]

...only to find out that the latest study would require more studying, before a new study is released on how good the next study will be.

:cool:

we don't need a study. the city should stop studying things and just do them from now on. It's not like studies actually make things better. Look at Disraeli.

[1ajs]

not that was the city just doing what it felt like

[MalcolmTucker]

Studies are important, even if you don't immediately follow up with action. Calgary's LRT system is based off a study in the mid 60s, and the city started protecting right of ways in the 70s. Even now Calgary is finishing up routing studies for the next 2 lines which one or both could be 15 or 20 years off.

Studies keep costs down, and mean when you're ready, you can start in 1 year instead of 3.

[c vist]

Winnipeg has been doing LRT studies for 30 years ... they all say the same thing, we cannot afford it. I am in reluctant agreement ... if we could increase ridership, taxes, downtown parking costs and decrease surface parking ... there might be a chance. It's not really the capital costs for the LRT that is really the issue!

[Spocket]

Studies are important, even if you don't immediately follow up with action. Calgary's LRT system is based off a study in the mid 60s, and the city started protecting right of ways in the 70s. Even now Calgary is finishing up routing studies for the next 2 lines which one or both could be 15 or 20 years off.

Studies keep costs down, and mean when you're ready, you can start in 1 year instead of 3.

Sure they're important. The problem is that we've wasted enough money on studies of rapid transit in Winnipeg that we could probably have bought a complete system by now had the money gone towards construction instead of the studies.
Besides , what is there to study exactly ? Does this really need to cost another 100 grand ? Can't some bean counter spend a few minutes on the internet researching the cost of trains and track these days for LRT ? We already have the corridors and ten million studies to cover everything else so this should really only be a matter of finding out if LRT has come down in cost. Further , if anybody at city hall actually spent a minute looking at these studies , they'd also realize that there's nothing left to study . Start in 1 year instead of 3 ? That's what they said roughly fifty years ago when the first studies came out.

[MalcolmTucker]

The study should cost a lot more than $100 grand. I am not sure about the process in Manitoba, but the studies Calgary has done have been implementable as official plans when they are done, the equivalent of Environmental Assessments in Ontario. IE: if council was to approve it, they would have full legal authority to go to tender and construction.

Calgary right now is planning the downtown subway network using a study. It alone has a budget of $8 million. Studies are more than putting lines on a map, and eyeballing costs. You need to do soil testing, choose the exact running corridor, estimate property costs, show alignment options that were rejected and why.

[swolfe]

Another BRT debate

TWO opposition councillors will try to convince their colleagues to put Phase 2 of the Southwest Rapid Transit Corridor back on a city infrastructure-funding wish list.

A list of city-approved infrastructure priorities going before council today no longer includes the second phase of the city's first bus corridor, a $220-million, six-kilometre busway that would run parallel to Pembina Highway from Jubilee Avenue to Bison Drive near the University of Manitoba.

When Phase 1 of the busway was announced in 2008, construction on the second phase was supposed to begin in 2012. But Mayor Sam Katz has no desire to plan or fund phase two and would rather see all three levels of government use Building Canada Fund money to finance road, bridge and bike-path projects instead.

Couns. Jenny Gerbasi (Fort Rouge) and Dan Vandal (St. Boniface) will attempt to amend the infrastructure-funding list at council today. Katz may also make a motion to allow a debate over executive policy committee's request to fund a new study comparing the costs and benefits of light-rail transit to bus rapid transit.

Other contentious items on today's council agenda include the city's plan to look for outside help to fix up hockey arenas, the Disraeli Freeway reconstruction expropriation plan, new provincial campaign-financing rules and the football-stadium funding plan.

-- Kives

Republished from the Winnipeg Free Press print edition April 28, 2010 B2

[RTD]

Council votes to study LRT
By: Bartley Kives

Winnipeg Free Press

April 28, 2010

WINNIPEG - City council has approved Mayor Sam Katz's plan to spend up to $100,000 over the next three months to conduct another rapid-transit study.

Council voted 10-4 this afternoon to ask city staff to compare the costs and benefits of light-rail transit to bus rapid transit.

Opposition councillors, already angry at a Katz decision to remove the second phase of the Southwest Winnipeg Transit Corridor, accused Katz of wasting money updating or redoing transportation studies the city has already conducted.

Since Katz was elected mayor in 2004, the city has spent $240,000 on the Rapid Transit Task Force's final report, set aside $1.25 million to study the creation of a transportation authority, authorized $1.15 million in spending on a transportation study and also awarded a consultant a $53,000 contract to conduct a cost-benefit analysis about converting bus rapid transit to light-rail transit.

Katz said two Fridays ago he has received new information from an unnamed rail-industry source who says light rail is not as expensive as previously thought.

Katz said his source said LRT could be built as cheaply as $50 million per kilometre, vs. $38 million per kilometre for bus rapid transit.

Daniel McIntyre Coun. Harvey Smith and Fort Rouge Coun. Jenny Gerbasi asked Katz to identify the individual.

Appearing in delegation, environmental consultant Ken Klassen questioned Katz's information, noting it recently cost five Canadian cities anywhere from $69 million to $168 million per kilometre to build light rail.

Katz, however, said Klassen proved his point, as more recent LRT projects have been less expensive on a per-kilometre basis.

The debate comes amid Katz's decision not to pursue funding for the second phase of the Southwest Rapid Transit Corridor.

The mayor wants the province and Ottawa to fund a light-rail network instead.

The province wants the city to complete its bus corridor first.

The first phase of the busway, a $138-million link between Queen Elizabeth Way near The Forks and Jubilee Avenue at Pembina Highway, is under construction and is expected to be finished in late 2011.

The second phase, which was to continue along Pembina Highway to Bison Drive neat the University of Manitoba, has a $220-million pricetag.

Only Couns. Smith, Gerbasi, Lillian Thomas (Elmwood) and Dan Vandal (St. Boniface) voted against the LRT study.

[JayM]

*poof* there goes another rubber tree plant

[Kitty Surprise]

*poof* there goes another rubber tree plant

And replaced by Winnipeg's very own, $138 Million White Elephant.

Does this mess qualify as 'Bait & Switch'?

Our Mayor is such a clever one, working so hard to help those he cares most about.

[Spocket]

Studies are more than putting lines on a map, and eyeballing costs. You need to do soil testing, choose the exact running corridor, estimate property costs, show alignment options that were rejected and why.

Okay , and as I said already , we already have a hundred studies telling us all about this stuff. Everything about rapid transit in Winnipeg has been studied to death. We already know the soil conditions , the property costs , the alignments , ridership projections , included factors such as trip times , weather issues , and maintenance. There is NOTHING LEFT TO STUDY. None of these things has changed since the last study came out and we've already taken care of land assembly , station locations , etc.

I'm not saying studies aren't important but we've already got far more of them than we need. What we need now is a mayor with just a hint of vision and at least the slightest idea of urban planning issues in North America. He just doesn't get it and that's the problem. He still thinks mass transit is a non-issue so long as people have it. If it was up to him he'd sell our bus fleet and buy a thousand bikes so as to institute a ride-and-ditch program for Winnipeg transit. He thinks this because he knows it's not the NDP crowd voting for him and therefore issues like public transit don't even enter into his range of thoughts. Now he's simply wasting money on yet another study we don't need because it's going to tell us the same things the last ten studies have told us. Worse , his rationale for ordering the study is that he heard a little birdy tell him LRT got cheaper recently. He could just as easily had his secretary call an LRT engine manufacturer to ask them what the going price of a train was these days. Or used Google for that matter . The point is that it's just a diversionary tactic exactly as Gerbasi said.

[dennis]

Its not that. We do too many studies on ideas that are scrapped. Jeeze Katz, make up your f'ing mind.

[jmt18325]

Or better yet, just stick to BRT for now as it's the only thing that has been proven workable, affordable....and which has the support of the other two levels of government.