[The Jabroni]

Agreed. I wouldn't press my luck too much on LRT, just because someone told me "LRT is a lot more cheaper than you think" from a single source, only to waste time and money to conduct another study to see if that speculation is actually true.

Seriously, there is no focus in this city sometimes.

[dennis]

Katz should finish the second leg of BRT. After that, he could consider LRT for another part of the city. BRT however should be fine.

[kattiff]

hi everyone,

this is my first time on this and posting something, i might add i am not the greatest at typing paragraphs or at spelling, so i am sorry.

i dont know how much things cost but has the city ever thought of a monorail? up above the streets! like you know the sky train in vancouver or that one in sydney, australia along its buildings in its downtown there.
just personally the city should let the first brt line just go as far as phase one. the buses will go there and relieve the congestion of confusion corner. and with a monorail it can start at our new terminal at the airport or red river college or even centreport. then go to polo park then the univeristy of winnipeg and with the surface lots in downtown im sure a good station or two will be good there. then it will go to the university of manitoba and be built by the new stadium. and then maybe future lines to transcona, kildonan, st.vital, st. boniface or even liden woods (for ikea) i dunno.

winnipeg has to really work on its transportation and i just thought a monorail will be awesome in our city and to be completely different from a lrt or brt. and if centreport takes off well winnipeg could always become the future toronto and calgary.

if it is a lot to build then why do we have a stadium and other future things on the go, go expensive and benefit it in the long run.

a monorail can always be expanded, concrete pillar on top of a road.

i thought it be just really cool if winnipeg could have this. :)

[1ajs]

monorail was proposed in the 60's
http://sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/photos-ak-sf2p/v648/97/113/518003824/n518003824_1859662_2068.jpg

[Biff]

I don't know if a true monorail is the answer but i have always thought that an elevated rail system would work best with Winnipeg's winters (no snow clearing or ice build-up problems).

[MalcolmTucker]

Check out some pictures of snow clearing on the Moscow monorail before you make up your mind on what would be good for Winnipeg... http://www.monorails.org/tmspages/CnstMosc3.html

[Biff]

^^^ Still makes sense to me. The city can sell the naming rights to each snow clear - "This 5 am monorail snow clear is brought to you by the Letter S"

This is what i am referring to regarding reliability - from that link you gave -

"Yes, monorails DO operate in snow. On January 5, 2004, these images were captured of the Moscow Monorail literally blowing snow off the tracks while on a test run. PLEASE NOTE: SNOW WILL NOT BLAST OFF THE TRACK WITH EVERY TRAIN PASSING! In most cases, this sort of event would take place early in the day with the first runs. As TMS member and monorail promoter extraordinaire Dick Falkenbury has pointed out many times, running a system's trains frequently will keep snow from building up on the tracks. So don't expect to get pummeled with snow every time a monorail train passes. However, providing that the system is designed like this, what you can expect is higher reliability of service compared to most ground-based transportation systems."

[when in doubt, grout]

i think i really like Katz's enormous balls to basically go against everyone and try to get LRT in this town, because BRT is a lot of money for nothing spectacular.

BRT and Winnipeg are probably a good fit for each other though. A less than spectacular project for a less than spectacular city makes a lot of sense on the federal level.

[RTD]

BRT and Winnipeg are probably a good fit for each other though. A less than spectacular project for a less than spectacular city makes a lot of sense on the federal level.

Unfortunately, I feel this is the impression that BRT will give people of Winnipeg, especially those visiting the city; a second-rate city that settles for second-rate rapid transit.

[Spocket]

i think i really like Katz's enormous balls to basically go against everyone and try to get LRT in this town, because BRT is a lot of money for nothing spectacular.
.

He's not going for LRT , he's trying to distract people by claiming he's going for LRT. Remember , the first thing he did when he came into office was cancel our rapid transit plan so that he could stick the money into other areas. Then he got another study to tell him what every other study already did. Then he claimed that we would get a "Made in Winnipeg" rapid transit system which was nothing more than a few special lights and diamond lanes. Now that we've got just one measly portion of a leg of BRT already going , he claims that he wants LRT. This is not the track record of a man who can either make a solid decision or who actually has any interest whatsoever in rapid transit for Winnipeg. What Katz wants is to put every dollar we give him into pothole filling.

He's just playing for cash , not rapid transit of any kind and he definitely doesn't care whether we get LRT or BRT. As I said earlier , he'd be more than happy to replace Winnipeg Transit's bus fleet with a "Steal-and-Ditch" program of bicycles. Hell , he'd probably only buy twenty of them and even then they'd be bare-bones , used , and rusted out with nary a gear to be seen.

Sorry to be so cynical about it but it certainly appears to be what Katz is interested in based on his history.

[when in doubt, grout]

What Katz wants is to put every dollar we give him into pothole filling.

Can't blame him for this part though, the roads in this city are ridiculously destroyed.

Other than that you bring up some very interesting points I didn't consider.

[vid]

The roads in all our cities are ridiculously destroyed. The material we use to build them doesn't stand up to our climate but we keep using it. :koko: Maintaining roads is especially difficult in a flood plain where you're basically on sand and clay and the ground moves a lot when freezing and thawing. Even the grass here has giant cracks and holes.

Katz is showing the downside of populism. The constant changing of opinion to match whatever the voters want simply doesn't work when you're trying to run a city, especially one as large and diversely opinionated as Winnipeg. You can not please all the people all the time, and it is only slightly less difficult to please a third of the people a third of the time. So don't bother. Just do what you think is right and if it benefits the voters, they'll re-elect you. If not, then you move on.

[when in doubt, grout]

The roads in all our cities are ridiculously destroyed. The material we use to build them doesn't stand up to our climate but we keep using it. :koko:

Have you ever built a road? What material do you suggest we use?

I build roads for a living, and went to school for years studying geotechnical design, roadway design, pavement mix design, etc... I don't need you to tell me why the roads here get destroyed, i'm fully aware of the reasons why they are in the shape they are in.

They need to be renewed more often, period.

[grumpy old man]

Have you ever built a road? What material do you suggest we use?

I build roads for a living, and went to school for years studying geotechnical design, roadway design, pavement mix design, etc... I don't need you to tell me why the roads here get destroyed, i'm fully aware of the reasons why they are in the shape they are in.

They need to be renewed more often, period.

Ummm, chill... Why would you be offended at that post?

Too many of our roads are crap. Saying that is not a shot at you personally...

[nordique]

roads are serious business.

[1ajs]

Have you ever built a road? What material do you suggest we use?

I build roads for a living, and went to school for years studying geotechnical design, roadway design, pavement mix design, etc... I don't need you to tell me why the roads here get destroyed, i'm fully aware of the reasons why they are in the shape they are in.

They need to be renewed more often, period.

are there better liquids to use other then water?

[when in doubt, grout]

are there better liquids to use other then water?

whiskey

[vid]

Have you ever built a road? What material do you suggest we use?

http://www.rubberasphaltsolutions.com/

If that is cheaper in the long term, that is what we should be doing. It's more durable and less prone to cracking. It costs more to install at first, but how long will the road last before you have to replace it?

They need to be renewed more often, period.

"I pave roads for a living. We should repave roads more often". No, we should find a way so that we don't have to repave roads all the time!

[jmt18325]

We're trying rubber asphalt. It may or may not work.

[SHOFEAR]

http://www.rubberasphaltsolutions.com/

If that is cheaper in the long term, that is what we should be doing. It's more durable and less prone to cracking. It costs more to install at first, but how long will the road last before you have to replace it?



"I pave roads for a living. We should repave roads more often". No, we should find a way so that we don't have to repave roads all the time!

Paving (and road structure) is about 1/3 of the cost of a new subdivision. Your going to have a hard time convincing this industry to use a much more expensive product.

[1ajs]

Paving (and road structure) is about 1/3 of the cost of a new subdivision. Your going to have a hard time convincing this industry to use a much more expensive product.
not just the new developements what about existing thats being replaced over time

[vid]

Paving (and road structure) is about 1/3 of the cost of a new subdivision. Your going to have a hard time convincing this industry to use a much more expensive product.

You would if you made them responsible for the neighbourhood's maintenance. :frog:

[1ajs]

How much profit is there per boys in a development... Caue I would imagin there's more then snuff being made to to the roads properly

[grumpy old man]

How much profit is there per boys in a development... Caue I would imagin there's more then snuff being made to to the roads properly

Translation please.

[ILYR]

Translation please.

:previous: :cheers:

I think its time for everyone to donate to the "1ajs spelling and grammar education fund".

[vid]

Seriously. Even I can't tell what he is saying and I am used to it. :haha:

[nordique]

same. usually there are some comprehensible key words that i can use to get the jist of what he's saying, but this time.... :shrug: :shrug: :shrug:

[1ajs]

Translation please.
i was on my ipod

[1ajs]

anyhow i was going on about profits made on homes vs cost and the fact that theres probly more then enuff profit being made to eat the extra cost

[h0twired]

Land developers are the ones responsible for building the roads to the specifications laid out by the city.

Home builders buy the land from the developers and then proceed to sell the land to the buyer of the new home.

When the street is fully developed the city inspects the streets and sidewalks and makes the developer repair any damage or deficiencies and then the street is handed off to the city for maintenance.

If you want better roads. The city is who has to increase their standards and requirements for developers. However I would expect that new lots would increase in price as well. Which isn't always a bad thing.

[SHOFEAR]

Land developers are the ones responsible for building the roads to the specifications laid out by the city.

Home builders buy the land from the developers and then proceed to sell the land to the buyer of the new home.

When the street is fully developed the city inspects the streets and sidewalks and makes the developer repair any damage or deficiencies and then the street is handed off to the city for maintenance.

If you want better roads. The city is who has to increase their standards and requirements for developers. However I would expect that new lots would increase in price as well. Which isn't always a bad thing.

No developer is going to eat these cost, they will instantly be transferred to the people buying lots. Obviously, most on here will be biased on what they think of that.

It's not so much a problem there, but in a place like Edmonton or Calgary it would just make for a much stronger case to develop outside the city boundaries.

From my perpective, our fees are based on cost....so bring it on.

[eman]

Question: About Phase 2,, there are many streets that cross the line. Starting with Byng, Windermere, Somerset, Waterford, Southwood, Mcgilvary and 3 more streets until Bishop Grandin. That 10 streets. Knowing the city is too cheap to build over passes or a trench(like in parts of Toronto's subway) so do I assume there will be new lights or a railway/like crossing gate?

[Jets4Life]

I have always felt 1ajs has been a valuable forum member. I always look forward to the pictures he takes. Maybe there is a reason for his bad grammar?

[dennis]

I will pass on a secret of mine. 1ajs, TrueViking and Andy6 are my favorite posters. I may even start a fan club.

[1ajs]

I have always felt 1ajs has been a valuable forum member. I always look forward to the pictures he takes. Maybe there is a reason for his bad grammar?

its frustraiting as hell for me when i see some of the mistakes i make...

[Andy6]

You have improved so much, though.

[Biff]

Question: About Phase 2,, there are many streets that cross the line. Starting with Byng, Windermere, Somerset, Waterford, Southwood, Mcgilvary and 3 more streets until Bishop Grandin. That 10 streets. Knowing the city is too cheap to build over passes or a trench(like in parts of Toronto's subway) so do I assume there will be new lights or a railway/like crossing gate?



....at grade railway style crossings.

[h0twired]

Question: About Phase 2,, there are many streets that cross the line. Starting with Byng, Windermere, Somerset, Waterford, Southwood, Mcgilvary and 3 more streets until Bishop Grandin. That 10 streets. Knowing the city is too cheap to build over passes or a trench(like in parts of Toronto's subway) so do I assume there will be new lights or a railway/like crossing gate?

Trenches and bridges aren't always feasible depending on how closely stuff is constructed around the tracks.

Calgary has a number of at-grade crossings of the LRT and it works just fine, especially in lower traffic areas.

[eman]

h0twired
Dynamic Positivity!
"Trenches and bridges aren't always feasible depending on how closely stuff is constructed around the tracks.

Calgary has a number of at-grade crossings of the LRT and it works just fine, especially in lower traffic areas."



Do you mean a crossing gate will come down every time a bus comes on busy street like McGillvary? And just flashing lights on the others?

[vid]

If it is for LRT they will probably just put in a traffic light that only turns red when the bus has to cross, like a mid-block pedestrian crossing.

[Kinguni]

Do you mean a crossing gate will come down every time a bus comes on busy street like McGillvary? And just flashing lights on the others?

I'd expect traffic lights more likely. Stage 2 plans haven't been released yet. Doubt it's much more than an idea at this point.

Edit: vid posted while I was composing something much longer than this but changed my mind!

[Spocket]

The Transitway in Ottawa just has lights . Since that's BRT and this is BRT it seems reasonable to assume we'd follow the same idea. Very few places in North America can actually justify the expense of grade-separations at all crossings where LRT or BRT are concerned.

[eman]

There are very few things that impress me about BRT in Winnipeg. Long before getting into downtown the system travels onto roads at Harkness Ave and within one block there are 3 sets of lights and massive rush-hour congestion through there before getting onto Main Street. I found this picture of a BRT in China and its impressive,, elevated system with no lights. At the very least there should be a elevated system from Harkness to Graham otherwise it will still take 20 minutes to get in and out of downtown,, no faster than now. Better yet,, build the elevated system on Donald over the Midtown bridge all the way to MTS Centre. Think about a UofW student going from one side of downtown to the other just to get to Harkness before benefitting from the dedicated BRT.



http://www.chinabrt.org/images/xiamen4.jpg

[jmt18325]

Maybe China has an infinite amount of money to spend. Winnipeg doesn't.

[Spocket]

Maybe China has an infinite amount of money to spend. Winnipeg doesn't.

It's not that China has any great amount of money floating around , it's that their cities are completely different from ours .

You have to remember a few things here but chiefly it's that the government owns all land . There are no NIMBYs waiting in the wings to challenge any decision the planners make. Even if you , as a citizen , shell out a million yuan for an apartment , it's not actually yours . You just have the right to stay there for thirty years. Crazy as it sounds , that's really how it works here.

Secondly , where planning is concerned , everything is built to final-stage right from the start. They don't upgrade as necessary . They'll tear down an entire neighbourhood of slum housing (which happens all the time here) and build a new street network. The thing is that they'll build this new street network even if it doesn't actually conform to the network around it . In other words , you can be driving on an eight lane road , it comes to an abrupt end and you wind up on some back lane. You go around some little slum and then back on to the newly planned street network. Basically it's a patchwork or a jigsaw puzzle and the pieces are being put in place rather randomly. Add to this the fact that China is completely rebuilding its cities from the ground up. Imagine leveling St. Boniface completely and you've got Chinese-style urban renewal.

Thirdly , there's just no room to build things any other way here. In my province alone there are over 27 million people. This is smaller by Chinese standards and by comparison , this province is maybe the size of New Brunswick.

Fourthly , there simply aren't as many streets here in the first place. The reason for that is because there aren't any houses here. I live ten kilometers from the city center of Changchun and there is absolutely nothing below three stories in between. For the most part , buildings here average about maybe eight stories. Now think of a city of ten storey row-houses and you're in China. The only thing resembling a house can be found in the hutong districts but even they're considerably denser than their North American counterparts.

Basically , looking to China for transportation solutions is not realistic when trying to apply said solutions to North America.

[eman]

My point is that BRT in Winnipeg does not mean Rapid,,, if it has to travel on the same streets and stop at every light in downtown. 20 minutes to get in and out of downtown is not an improvement. Build an elevated system over existing roads with columns on the median to fly-over the congestion, the whole point of BRT is to get around the congestion,, if it can't do that few people will choose over their comfortable cars. Katz is studying converting this line to light-rail,, surely that will be elevated at congestion points right? As for money,, Katz screwed it up,, the infrastructure stimulus money is finished. If doing BRT on the cheap cuts too many corners and is not significantly faster the comfortable car is more attractive. They are working on the first line,, if this line does not increase ridership good luck getting any lines to other parts of the city.

[jmt18325]

Katz is studying converting this line to light-rail,, surely that will be elevated at congestion points right?

Surely not. BRT is not usually built with flyovers. The line will run on its own street most of the way, and then will use diamond lanes for almost all of the rest of the way to downtown. It will be significantly faster than what exists now. It may at some point in the future make sense to have a raised bus lane. With the short length of BRT that will be built now, it doesn't.

[MalcolmTucker]

^ At least one of the big busway projects in China was built as a show point for the local bus manufacturing company.

Plus everything is cheaper when you have little regulation that stops a new concrete or steel plant from opening to supply a project, don't need to put in elevators for disabled people (fitting one onto each narrow platform looks like a squeeze).

As for fly overs, etc and the case for Winnipeg, with LRT you can have less grade separation because each movement carries much more capacity. You can even give the LRT full priority and still retain more capacity for the cross road than you would for a BRT solution (above a certain throughput).

Winnipeg is tough since it seems to be on the border where LRT starts to make sense, but it can't marshall itself to pay for it.

[Spocket]

Winnipeg is tough since it seems to be on the border where LRT starts to make sense, but it can't marshall itself to pay for it.

Well except that we're not on any such threshold . Density is far too low.

[grumpy old man]

Agreed. And we need to begin encouraging higher density development.

Are tax breaks required along rapid transit corridors to encourage such development? Will developers see the opportunity and embrace it without taxpayer subsidies?

Should we place a moratorium on sprawl? How do we stop sprawl from scooting beyond the city's jurisdiction? Toll roads outside the perimeter?

[1ajs]

City puts focus on streetcars

-- Investigation of options reveals lower cost -- Katz set to push concept with province

By: Bartley Kives
5/06/2010 1:00 AM | Comments: 25 (http://www.winnipegfreepress.com/breakingnews/city-puts-focus-on-streetcars-95678324.html#comments)

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Bombardier-produced streetcars in action in Vancouver. (CP)


Winnipeggers confused about the future of rapid transit may be pleased to learn streetcars are what Mayor Sam Katz desires.
The City of Winnipeg's investigation of new light-rail technology involves a flexible streetcar that can negotiate downtown streets and also travel up to 80 kilometres per hour on dedicated transitways, Katz and Winnipeg public works director Brad Sacher said Friday.
The vehicles, which resemble both buses and trains, can run on tracks embedded on streets as well as on transitways such as the first phase of the Southwest Rapid Transit Corridor, which is already under construction, Sacher said.
Variations of the electric-powered streetcars are made by Montreal manufacturer Bombardier, Siemens in Mississauga and Inekon in Czech Republic. They're already in use in Vancouver, Portland and Seattle and are heading to Toronto, which awarded Bombardier a contract to supply 204 of them for $1.2 billion in 2009.
Winnipeg is in the midst of completing the $138-million first phase of the Southwest Rapid Transit Corridor, which runs from The Forks to Jubilee Avenue, as a busway. In February, Katz announced his intention to place Phase Two, a $210-million extension that would continue to the University of Manitoba, on hold until the city investigates light rail.
Council's decision to spend $100,000 studying new light-rail technologies this spring angered bus rapid transit proponents on council and confused the Selinger government, which wants to see the city commit to completing Phase Two as a busway.
But Katz said the city received new information about light-rail technology whose infrastructure only costs $50 million per kilometre, which would be far cheaper than previous estimates -- and only 32 per cent more expensive than bus rapid transit.
"We're looking at LRT-lite, which is a wonderful, futuristic-looking train," Katz said Friday in an interview, adding consulting firms the city has hired -- Dillon and HDR -- have confirmed streetcar infrastructure would only cost $50 million per kilometre.
"This shows all three levels of government we can do something (other than bus rapid transit) with the money we've been talking about."
The mayor said the Selinger government -- not Ottawa -- has resisted upgrading bus rapid transit to light rail. Katz said he hopes he can convince the province new streetcar technology is viable, once city staff complete a report about the streetcars.
The flexible streetcar has a smaller turning radius than a conventional train, allowing it to operate in mixed traffic, Sacher said. Aside from the installation of tracks, additional costs associated with the technology include a storage and maintenance space for the vehicles as well as overhead lines to power them.
Streetcars ran on rails in Winnipeg until 1955, while electric buses connected to overhead wires were phased out during the 1960s. Winnipeg Transit rejected a push by Transcona Coun. Russ Wyatt to bring back trolley buses in 2010.
Katz said the new vehicles are nothing like old streetcars. "I got excited when I saw them, and I don't get excited that easily," he said.
Converting busways to light-rail transit is possible in Winnipeg, provided busway design takes into account factors such as the height of station platforms and turning radii, Dillon Consulting concluded in a 2008 report made public on Wednesday.
In a separate 2009 report, also released on Wednesday, consulting firm HDR concluded both bus rapid transit and light-rail transit offer Winnipeg clear financial benefits. HDR's cost-benefit analysis concluded BRT is a safer financial bet, but LRT would spark more transit-oriented development.
"The actual benefits of both are positive, there's no two ways about it," Sacher said. "At the end of the day, we have to decide what we're looking for."
The HDR report also rejected "automated people-mover" technology, briefly considered by the city in 2009, as unproven.
Winnipeg's indecision on rapid transit has been pilloried by the mayor's opponents, who note the city has spent millions studying transit since Katz was elected in 2004.
Former Winnipeg mayor Glen Murray, who visited city hall Friday, said Winnipeg would already have five transit corridors in place had the city followed through on the bus rapid transit plan Katz cancelled after taking office.
"We're the only city of over half a million in North America that doesn't have a well-developed plan," said Murray, the Ontario MPP for Toronto Centre, referring to Winnipeg.
The first public draft of Our Winnipeg, the city's long-term planning blueprint, calls for new rapid-transit corridors to connect downtown with Transcona and Richardson International Airport.
bartley.kives@freepress.mb.ca
Republished from the Winnipeg Free Press print edition June 5, 2010 B1

[RTD]

I like this new idea, and I think it will be able to attract and retain more riders than a BRT anyday, and if it's cost efficient, then its even a better reason to go for it. I think newer and more innovative technologies are always a good way to go. And I don't care what people say about how people only want rail transit because it looks "sexier" and more "big city" and more "old boys club" like. Truth be told, visual appeal is a HUGE factor in choosing a form of rail transit over bus; it's more appealing and people would see it as more of an option. And if it will attract more ridership and get more automobiles off the streets, why would you turn this down???

[Riverman]

I was very surprised at how small the turning radius is on these cars. The Harbourfront streetcar in Toronto turns around in a very small loop under Union Station. I too think they would be far more appealing than BRT.

[1ajs]

we should be building elevated rail down portage pemida main st regent ect...........

speaking of witch get aload of this poll http://www.winnipegfreepress.com/polls/Which-rapid-transit-option-do-you-prefer-95649199.html?c=y&pollSubmitted=y&oid=4&viewResults=y&mr=1&cid=8500584&pid=95649199

and katz is a flip flopper

[jmt18325]

we should be building elevated rail down portage pemida main st regent ect...........


That's far too expensive. L ike this new ultra light rail option.

[vid]

How about this:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/f/f8/Camel_bus_in_Havana.jpg/800px-Camel_bus_in_Havana.jpg (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Camel_bus_in_Havana.jpg)

Affordable. Stylish. It's got it all!

[1ajs]

That's far too expensive. L ike this new ultra light rail option.


no but it would alow us to use current coridoors and build desnity with in the city rather then sprawling........

[JayM]

How about this:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/f/f8/Camel_bus_in_Havana.jpg/800px-Camel_bus_in_Havana.jpg (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Camel_bus_in_Havana.jpg)

Affordable. Stylish. It's got it all!

I think that woman at the back of the bus (outside) looks like the mechanic. Shes tagging along just in case anything needs adjustments. :)

[h0twired]

Streetcars are the dumbest idea yet.

Lets take all of the negative features of a bus and now restrict travel to fixed tracks with no ability to pass other broken down street cars while covering the street with overhead high voltage cables.

Worst idea ever.

Just pure nostalgic kitsch with no added value to the transit system.

[MalcolmTucker]

^ Using streetcars in an exclusive ROW you get most of the benefits of light rail without as much cost. You trade some speed for lighter weight. Trade cheaper infrastructure costs for more expensive vehicles.

[Kinguni]

More power to Mayor Katz if he can pull it off, but it still looks like election grandstanding to me.

[1ajs]

katz is flip flopping...

[grumpy old man]

katz is flip flopping...

Wouldn't you prefer someone change his mind and do what is right (arguably) than stubbornly stick to one agenda?

[1ajs]

agg he first says no then he goes brt then he goes lrt lrt now hes talking street cars hes all over the place hes trying to buy votes thats all hes doing.................................................

[grumpy old man]

agg he first says no then he goes brt then he goes lrt lrt now hes talking street cars hes all over the place hes trying to buy votes thats all hes doing.................................................

Wouldn't you prefer someone change his mind and do what is right (arguably) than stubbornly stick to one agenda?

[1ajs]

Wouldn't you prefer someone change his mind and do what is right (arguably) than stubbornly stick to one agenda?

what a corupt mayor?

[grumpy old man]

You sayin' he is corrupt? Ummm, you do know what slander is right? Dislike someone 'til the cows come home, just be very careful how you label them.

Just sayin' is all...

[vid]

1: I think Grumpy Old Man is Sam Katz

2: I love how when it is a politician you hate, it is "flip-flopping", and when it is a politician you like, it is "changing his mind to better reflect the reality of the situation".

3: He has changed his mind 3 times now. Were "no rapid transit", "bus rapid transit" and "light rail transit" all bad ideas? If so, why did he support them? What facts have come to light recently that have sparked him to change his mind to support street cars over light rail?

4: Would he really sue a 21 year old kid for calling him a corrupt flip-flopper on an internet forum? He is an elected official that people expect to have the right to scrutinize. It would look horrible and certainly wouldn't bode well for someone who claims to be/tries to appear populist.

Just sayin' is all.

[1ajs]

anyone in the know can back up the coruption... you are aware of the millions hes riped off from buisnes partners over the yrs or his shinanigans with parking lots... theres the shindico deals also...

[grumpy old man]

1: I think Grumpy Old Man is Sam Katz

2: I love how when it is a politician you hate, it is "flip-flopping", and when it is a politician you like, it is "changing his mind to better reflect the reality of the situation".

3: He has changed his mind 3 times now. Were "no rapid transit", "bus rapid transit" and "light rail transit" all bad ideas? If so, why did he support them? What facts have come to light recently that have sparked him to change his mind to support street cars over light rail?

4: Would he really sue a 21 year old kid for calling him a corrupt flip-flopper on an internet forum? He is an elected official that people expect to have the right to scrutinize. It would look horrible and certainly wouldn't bode well for someone who claims to be/tries to appear populist.

Just sayin' is all.

1) Is there no Thunder Bay forum you can troll in?
2 & 3) If you knew me sport you'd know my thoughts on the man. But you don't so you feel baiting and trolling is appropriate.
4) You're not really as smart as you think you are eh sport? Calling a man a flip-flopper is not slander. Calling him corrupt is. The greatest defense is the truth. If the man is guilty there is nothing to fear. If not use caution. Nothing wrong with exercising prudence sport. If you want to continue to be a moron vid go ahead and slander away. I'd prefer to counsel the "21 year old kid" to practise restraint in such matters.

Just sayin' is all.

[Jets4Life]

1) Is there no Thunder Bay forum you can troll in?
2 & 3) If you knew me sport you'd know my thoughts on the man. But you don't so you feel baiting and trolling is appropriate.
4) You're not really as smart as you think you are eh sport? Calling a man a flip-flopper is not slander. Calling him corrupt is. The greatest defense is the truth. If the man is guilty there is nothing to fear. If not use caution. Nothing wrong with exercising prudence sport. If you want to continue to be a moron vid go ahead and slander away. I'd prefer to counsel the "21 year old kid" to practice restraint in such matters.

Just sayin' is all.

1) Do you have to resort to personal attacks on almost every post you make?

2&3) Will you ever answer other forum members questions, or will you continue to dodge them?

4) "I'd prefer to counsel the "21 year old kid" to practice restraint in such matters."

Give me a break. At least the "21 year old kid" has a better sense of forum etiquette than a 57 year old bully.


Just sayin' is all.


------

Having said that, I could not agree with 1ajs more. Katz is completely flip-flopping with the Rapid Transit issue. I'm beginning to think that he would do away with rapid transit all together, if he had his way. Just stick to one project, and follow through with it. How difficult is that?

[WpG_GuY]

who calls someone "sport" anymore....

Just sayin' is all.

[flatlander]

anyone in the know can back up the coruption... you are aware of the millions hes riped off from buisnes partners over the yrs or his shinanigans with parking lots... theres the shindico deals also...

1ajs for Mayor!

Just sayin.'

[rrskylar]

1) Is there no Thunder Bay forum you can troll in?
2 & 3) If you knew me sport you'd know my thoughts on the man. But you don't so you feel baiting and trolling is appropriate.
4) You're not really as smart as you think you are eh sport? Calling a man a flip-flopper is not slander. Calling him corrupt is. The greatest defense is the truth. If the man is guilty there is nothing to fear. If not use caution. Nothing wrong with exercising prudence sport. If you want to continue to be a moron vid go ahead and slander away. I'd prefer to counsel the "21 year old kid" to practise restraint in such matters.

Just sayin' is all.

Vid is an honorary Winnipeg forum member in good standing, his commentary is usually bang on unlike someone with the names grumpy and old man in their moniker!;)

[Archiseek]

oh kids these days.

Just sayin' is all.

[dennis]

It is only logical to finish the current leg of the BRT and perhaps complete the rest since construction has already begun. Why finish the BRT, only to have it ripped up and redone as an LRT. If the city wishes to commence construction of an LRT, start it on the east-west route. Once that is complete than reconstruct the downtown-pembina-U of M BRT as an LRT (at least after you get some use of what has already been started.) It only makes so much sense.

[trueviking]

i saw these light rail trains being installed in Nice, france last year and thought that they would be perfect for winnipeg....they look so simple and you can just walk up from street level and get on.

if katz pulls this off i wil actually vote for him....wow...did i say that?

now if we can just keep him from building a water park at the forks.

[vid]

But don't you want to be World Class™ like Thunder Bay? (We're also building a water park on the waterfront for whatever screwed up reason.)

Vid is an honorary Winnipeg forum member in good standing, his commentary is usually bang on unlike someone with the names grumpy and old man in their moniker!;)

Someday I will be an actual Winnipeg forum member. Whether or not the good standing remains will be determined then.

[Jets4Life]

Vid is an honorary Winnipeg forum member in good standing, his commentary is usually bang on unlike someone with the names grumpy and old man in their moniker!;)

Vid is the man. Let's acquire him from T-Bay in exchange for GOM, and a 4th round draft pick...

[1ajs]

lol vid should come here and go to school then go back to tb and work and do something for his city.......

[Reed Solomon]

i saw these light rail trains being installed in Nice, france last year and thought that they would be perfect for winnipeg....they look so simple and you can just walk up from street level and get on.

if katz pulls this off i wil actually vote for him....wow...did i say that?

now if we can just keep him from building a water park at the forks.

well between him and judy washedupaleshalies i mean, what choice is there.

i like light rail, if he goes with this, i say do it. Frankly I think the city was right to hold off on Glen Murrays plans and re-evaluate the actual bus service around the rest of the city first.

i dont see the appeal of water parks, but if someone wants to build one at the forks, so be it. bring the childrens festival or whatever back to kildonan park like when I was a kid and the canada day celebrations at assiniboine/osborne are enough.

[Spocket]

"Sport" ? WTF is up with that ?
i like light rail, if he goes with this, i say do it. Frankly I think the city was right to hold off on Glen Murrays plans and re-evaluate the actual bus service around the rest of the city first.
Yeah but Katz is full of shite . The "city" didn't decide to re-evaluate Murray's plans , Katz did . And in the end he did spent a lot of cash to wind up back at the exact same spot anyway . He has absolutely no real interest in rapid transit for this city . None . Don't buy into his crap about more time needed to study . Frankly he would like very much if you spent the next fifty years nodding your head in agreement that more study is needed . The last fifty years of study hasn't established anything yet apparently .

[1ajs]

katz is making money off the studies... his friends are to...

[rrskylar]

Still waiting for Sam's next choice of rapid transit, my bets are on monorail or maybe flying cars, stay tuned.

[Wigglez]

I know its not winnipeg, but it seems related to what were going thru.

Feds commit $600M to build Ottawa's light-rail plan (http://www.ctv.ca/servlet/ArticleNews/story/CTVNews/20100608/OTT_LIGHTRAIL_100608/20100608?hub=Canada&s_name=)

The federal government will contribute $600 million to transform Ottawa's transit system, building a downtown tunnel through the city's core and laying light rail tracks from Blair Road to Tunney's Pasture.

Transport Minister John Baird made the long-awaited announcement Tuesday morning, matching the funding already promised by the Ontario government. The city will be on the hook for the remaining $900 million.

The first phase of the plan was originally pegged at $1.4 billion; then it climbed to $1.8 billion. Now, the total cost for phase one is estimated at $2.1 billion.

Baird said he expects the city will use the funding to put towards a "practical and affordable" plan for the City of Ottawa.

Mayor Larry O'Brien said although the master plan for transit may be tweaked, the tunnel is non-negotiable.

O'Brien told CTV Ottawa last week that the next council will need to review the detailed costs of the project after a procurement process is established.

[Reed Solomon]

Yeah but Katz is full of shite . The "city" didn't decide to re-evaluate Murray's plans , Katz did .

Katz was voted mayor by the city, and council went along with his decision. Therefore the city decided to re-evaluate bus rapid transit.


And in the end he did spent a lot of cash to wind up back at the exact same spot anyway .

yes, which is disappointing. In my opinion all of these studies were likely flawed.

He has absolutely no real interest in rapid transit for this city . None . Don't buy into his crap about more time needed to study . Frankly he would like very much if you spent the next fifty years nodding your head in agreement that more study is needed . The last fifty years of study hasn't established anything yet apparently .

I wouldn't say he has no real interest in making sure the city has a 21st century public transit system, but sure.. "rapid transit" is probably not a buzz word he particularly foams around the mouth and proselytizes for. I do believe his desire for LRT is genuine though. That said, I don't buy into any crap about needing more time to study. We don't need any more studies, if he wants to do LRT, just do it, cost analysis be damned. If it turns out cheaper than projected, even better.

[Biff]

I don't understand why everyone keeps saying that Katz killed Murray's BRT plan and we got nothing for it. I don't necessarily agree with how he did it but how can you say we got nothing for it. He killed Murray's $50 mil plan for BRT, took the funding and somehow got it applied to our community centres. That set of projects has been a huge success - just about all major community centres have been updated, in the process of updated or will be in the next couple of years.

Bronx Park - $5.8 - Complete
Valour/Isaac Brock - $1.8 - Complete
Norberry/Glenlee - $2.0 - Complete
Sinclair Park - $4.0 - underway
Sturgeon Heights - $3.5 - shortly
Winakwa - $2.5 - shortly
Southdale - $6.0 - underway
Park City West - $4.0 - next year
Linden Woods - $3.0 - next year

Then we still got funding to do the first leg of BRT - $125 million. I say we are well ahead of Murray's $50 million BRT that he canceled. That is why i am wondering if he can pull LRT off too. The thing that seems to make all of this seem like it might work is that it is 1. and election year municipally 2. there is a provincial election coming up and our un-elected Premier - Sellinger (idiot) seems to want to leave his mark with his big cheque book and big projects 3. LRT is a green project the Federal Govt loves and Edmonton, Calgary, Toronto, Vancouver and now Ottawa have gotten large sums of federal monies for LRT projects not bus projects.

I guess we shall see. I never liked the busway idea so i am kind of OK with Katz gambling the second phase of it.

[kattiff]

i still think the city should look into the monorails more. let the brt just go as far as phase one and let the buses go there instead of confusion corner. with the new terminal and the football stadium. i would like to ride a train in the air like vancouver instead of a bus. if we can take away land to make two lanes for just buses and stuff i am sure we can build pillars over land that doesnt have to be taken away for trains.
does anyone on this forum have like connection ties to the city lol. thats just my opinion. i would like to see winnipeg get something amazing

[Spocket]

Katz was voted mayor by the city, and council went along with his decision. Therefore the city decided to re-evaluate bus rapid transit.

Okay , and conversely the same city council went along with Murray (with a few exceptions)
In any case , I understand what you're saying but let's just look at Katz' history . That really speaks volumes about his "dedication" to rapid transit of any form .

[Bdog]

Similar talks about Streetcars in Oakland... (http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2010/06/10/BA5U1DTG62.DTL#ixzz0qWpXVy1C)

[RTD]

Similar talks about Streetcars in Oakland... (http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2010/06/10/BA5U1DTG62.DTL#ixzz0qWpXVy1C)

Yes, but the difference is that this line in Oakland will ONLY run through downtown, while Winnipeg's will actually be a form of rapid transit on dedicated roadways at up to 80km/h, at least that is my understanding of it, correct?

Also, just this one time, I WILL look at Quebec City as an example. They are building a tramway system, and from what I understand, will be getting a nice chunk of change from the feds to build it; Winnipeg should be able to benefit from the feds as well, seeing many large city across Canada are getting generous funding for rail transit. It's time Winnipeg stepped up and built some form of rail transit. We are growing. We need it. And yes, it will be more appealing to people than than a bunch of buses on a roadway. :tup:

[SharpeGreenjacket]

I noticed no one mentioned the follow up Transit Oriented Development (TOD)event tomorrow night (Thursday, June 17th) at the Carol Shields Auditorium from 5:00PM to 8PM, with an overview presentation at 6:30PM. here's a link:

http://www.winnipeg.ca/ppd/TOD/pdf/Ad_June2010.pdf .

The ad was in last Thursday's Free Press, and received a copy via the MPPI e-newsletter.

The event is to provide information and receive comment on the draft Transit Oriented Development (TOD) Handbook, which according to the ad in the paper is one of the implementation documents out of OurWinnipeg and the Complete Communities Direction Strategy.

There is more information on the project website, including the draft TOD Handbook, at www.winnipeg.ca/ppd/tod

Anyone planning on going?

[Kinguni]

Graham Ave. should be prime for TOD, but there hasn't been any. What's up with that?

[RTD]

Winnipeg Free Press - PRINT EDITION
Toews to Katz: Get on the bus
Mayor insists on holding out for light rail

By: Bartley Kives

26/06/2010 1:00 AM | Comments: 15

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Senior Manitoba MP Vic Toews says it's time for Winnipeg Mayor Sam Katz "to fish or cut bait" on the second phase of the Southwest Rapid Transit Corridor, which the province wants to build as a busway.

But the federal minister left the door open a crack for Katz to find a way to complete the project as a light-rail corridor.

For the past six months, the city and province have been mired in a dispute over the completion of a rapid-transit corridor that will eventually extend from Queen Elizabeth Way near The Forks to Bison Drive near the University of Manitoba.

The $138-million first phase of the corridor, which runs 3.6 kilometres from Queen Elizabeth Way to Jubilee Avenue, is under construction and is expected to be completed in late 2011.

The province and Ottawa have offered Winnipeg $130 million toward the $220-million second phase, a six-kilometre extension that would run parallel to Pembina Highway.

Katz has refused to sign on to the plan, partly because it's less than two-thirds of the total cost, but mostly because he'd rather upgrade the entire corridor -- Winnipeg's first rapid-transit line -- to a form of light rail involving flexible streetcars that can ride on both roads and tracks.

The mayor wants Manitoba Premier Greg Selinger to agree to lobby Ottawa to fund light rail through a pot of money set aside for public-private partnerships.

Katz wants Selinger to agree to redirect existing infrastructure cash to road and bridge projects instead.

On Thursday, Toews reiterated he stands with the province in the rapid-transit dispute. "I've made my position very clear. There comes a point where you have to fish or cut bait and I think all the decisions have been made here," Toews said. "I've been very supportive of what the province and the city have been doing here. I want to see the province and the city get along, but I also want to make sure this project moves ahead."

Manitoba Local Government Minister Ron Lemieux has also told Katz "to get on with it" with regards to the southwest corridor. But the mayor said he believes Selinger will change his mind once the city is able to hand him a light-rail report, which is expected in July.

The report should demonstrate it is not as expensive as previously thought to switch to light rail that employs flexible streetcars, Katz said.

The mayor said he has already started speaking to the administrators of a federal fund for public-private partnerships.

"They're very interested," said Katz, adding Ottawa may even split the cost of a business plan. "The opportunity is definitely there."

Toews confirmed rapid transit is an approved category for public-private partnership funding.

If Katz is successful, Ottawa could fund 25 per cent of a light-rail route built as a public-private partnership, over and above any infrastructure commitments using the Building Canada Fund.

This would allow all three levels of government to redirect $130 million worth of infrastructure money to traffic improvements at Polo Park, the extension of Chief Peguis Trail west to McPhillips Street or other road-and-bridge upgrades on an 11-project city wish list, Katz said.

"Why would they say no to that?" Katz asked, referring to the province. "People aren't going to stick to an idea after they realize it's not what's best for Winnipeg or for the taxpayers.

"There's no doubt in my mind that LRT is not only light, but right."

bartley.kives@freepress.mb.ca

Republished from the Winnipeg Free Press print edition June 26, 2010 B1


source: http://www.winnipegfreepress.com/breakingnews/toews-to-katz-get-on-the-bus-97217364.html?viewAllComments=y

[pegcity]

Where exactly is this?
http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4100/4736545614_bbd8108814_z.jpg
from Winnipegfreepress.com (http://www.winnipegfreepress.com)

[SKYSTHELIMIT]

Where exactly is this?
http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4100/4736545614_bbd8108814_z.jpg
from Winnipegfreepress.com (http://www.winnipegfreepress.com)

Looks to be just beyond the bus barn on Osborne if you follow the rail line with google maps you come to this building which looks to be a maintenance shop for the rail the doors have rails running into them. Looks like the busway has to dive under here.

[Kinguni]

Where exactly is this?


That's at the end of Warsaw Ave. behind Pembina Dodge.

[1ajs]

anyone ever look at the tenders section of the cities site theres some stuff up for the bike lanes right now

[Archiseek]

Re BRT - these are quite nice
http://www.flickr.com/photos/gerryward/4033383746/
http://www.flickr.com/photos/gerryward/4032942691/
http://www.flickr.com/photos/gerryward/4032655535/

This is the ACE Downtown Connector A038, a version of the StreetCar BRT that Wrightbus have developed for the Regional Transportation Commission of Southern Nevada (RTC) to be used in Las Vegas. The hybrid-electric driveline for the StreetCar has been developed in conjunction with the ISE Corporation of California and incorporates Siemens ELFA traction components and is based on a Cummins ISL engine. The chassis has been supplied by Swiss trolleybus specialists Carosserie Hess.
The ThunderVolt diesel hybrid drive system features a custom drive motor developed by Siemens with 400 kW power and 5000 Nm torque, a new generation of Siemens inverters with 30% greater power density, a high torque density generator rated at 260kW, a Cummins ISL 330 HP engine with advanced electric cooling system, advanced NiMH battery energy storage system from Cobasys, other innovations such as electrically driven accessories - air conditioning, DC/DC converters and Remote Diagnostic System - all controlled and optimised by ISE’s Hybrid Control Software ThunderCAN.

[RTD]

Light Rail Transit option recommended to Council
Comparative costs show LRT as viable option for City
Released: 2:35 p.m.

NEWS @ A GLANCE:

Committed to providing Winnipeg with a sustainable long term rapid transit option, Executive Policy Committee will consider a recommendation from the City of Winnipeg public service next week to endorse Light Rail Transit (LRT) as a preferred rapid-transit option.
(for more details, please read the full media release below)

Winnipeg, July 2, 2010 – Committed to providing Winnipeg with a sustainable long term rapid transit option, Executive Policy Committee will consider a recommendation from the City of Winnipeg public service next week to endorse Light Rail Transit (LRT) as a preferred rapid-transit option.

“Winnipeg needs a long term sustainable rapid transit system that will get people out of their cars and thinking seriously about alternative forms of transportation,” said Mayor Sam Katz. “Light Rail provides the best long term life cycle benefits in terms of increased ridership, increased residential and commercial development density, and reductions in green house gas emissions. We know there is potential Federal funding available through P3 Canada, and we need to ensure we are advocating strongly on behalf of Winnipeggers to make the right decision for the future of Winnipeg.”

Comparative costs of $38 million per kilometer for Bus Rapid Transit (BRT) and $50 million per kilometer for Light Rail Transit have been independently validated by IBI Group and HDR Decision Economics, and most recently in follow up with discussion with HDR, indicating that an LRT option is more affordable than previously indicated.

As the city moves forward with rapid transit, the first phase of Bus Rapid Transit (BRT) is currently being built and will be completed from downtown to the Jubilee Overpass.

Also in April 2010, City Council voted to endorse the following infrastructure projects as City of Winnipeg priorities for intergovernmental funding through the Building Canada Fund:

* Kenaston Boulevard widening between Taylor Avenue and Academy Road
* Polo Park Area street and intersection improvements
* Plessis Road Twinning with grade separation at CNR Rail Line
* Regional Streets major rehabilitation
* Chief Peguis West extension from Main Street to McPhillips Avenue
* St. Anne’s Road twinning from Aldgate to the Perimeter
* Keewatin Street north of Inkster Boulevard expansion to four lanes
* Pembina Highway underpass at Jubilee Avenue
* Inkster Boulevard road reconstruction from Keewatin Street to Brookside Boulevard
* Community Centre Investment Fund Contribution
* extension of the Pembina Highway active transportation network from Jubilee Avenue to the University of Manitoba, with a transit hub at the University of Manitoba.

“With the potential of a new Federal funding source for LRT, I believe Winnipeggers deserve both a viable rapid transit system and our existing infrastructure priorities addressed,” added Katz.

As part of the City’s Transportation Master Plan, the public service also is recommending to further investigate the five preliminary rapid transit corridors identified in the OurWinnipeg process, to identify preferred routes for consideration to implement light rail technology in the City of Winnipeg.

Executive Policy Committee will consider the recommendations on Wednesday, July 7th.

Source: http://www.winnipeg.ca/cao/media/news/nr_2010/nr_20100702.stm#1

Finally, some common sense and vision for our great city :cheers: