[big W]

Check out Edmonton's ambitious Rapid Transit expansion plan. I'm hoping this goes through.

http://forum.skyscraperpage.com/showthread.php?t=144549

This is one reason why I love Edmonton, although I am super jealous that Winnipeg a) lacks funds for such projects and b) lacks vision since even if we had this golden opportunity, no one would deem it valid for Winnipeg :(

I had thought that Winnipeg has been discussing LRT for a while now. Until I read this thread I thought that it was significantly further along. Are there any plans at all and if so what is the implimintation date.

[Spocket]

^We're planning a system of above-ground routes . It will be implemented as soon as we can get the saddles on the pigs (it's a "Made in Winnipeg" rapid transit system after all)

[fengshui]

Saw this on yahoo this morning - follow the link for the whole article.
http://ca.autos.yahoo.com/p/299/residents-of-edmonton-calgary-rely-on-their-cars-more-than-other-canadians-study

Residents of Edmonton, Calgary rely on their cars more than other Canadians: study

The Canadian Press - By Lorrayne Anthony, The Canadian Press
Edmontonians and Calgarians feel the need hop into their cars to get around more than folks in other large, urban areas, a new study found.

Seventy-seven per cent of Edmonton residents and 75 per cent of those living in Calgary relied on their cars to make all their trips on the day they were surveyed, a Statistics Canada study reported Tuesday.

Those least likely to use their cars for every trip were people living in Montreal (65 per cent), Toronto (66 per cent) and Vancouver (69 per cent).

"We have these older urban neighbourhoods in the downtown core of the larger cities - the best example is Montreal, Toronto and Vancouver - where ... there is a mix of use. Both residential and commercial use in the same area, which makes it easier for people to walk," said Statistics Canada researcher and author of the study Martin Turcotte.

"That's not the case in newer suburbs."

People in other cities fell somewhere between: Seventy-four per cent of those in Quebec City, 72 per cent of Winnipeggers and 72 per cent of those living in Ottawa-Gatineau used cars for every trip.

Of those living in smaller metropolitan areas - St. John's, N.L., Sherbroke, Que., Sudbury, Ont., Regina and Abbotsford, B.C. - 75 per cent of residents travelled exclusively by car.

The study, done in 2005, examined the use of motor vehicles for everyday trips such as commuting and running errands by people aged 18 and older in census metropolitan areas.

"I got my licence the day after I turned 16," said Paula Cocciolo, a 17-year-old Calgarian, who drives a car to school every day. "I hate public transit."

"It's dirty and I don't feel safe. I just don't like it."

She explained that her family of four each take a car to their daily activities: Her older brother, a student at the University of Calgary, drives to class every day, her mom drives to work and her father drives to the train station, where then takes public transit to work.

[rrskylar]

With the sprawl Calgary and Edmonton suffer from, how would you even attempt to provide public transit, but then again Winnipeg is trying to emulate their poor planning and lack of vision with Waverley West. Sprawling cities like Phoenix and Las Vegas will be doomed when the oil crunch really hits, as neither city has even attempted to provide mass transit to their sprawling metros.

[Spocket]

^Sorry to have to correct you on this since we tend to agree on most things but Calgary has pretty good public transit figures (not too sure about Edmonton)
As far as I know, both Las Vegas and Phoenix are starting to think about mass transit (I think LV even has plans actually)

For both American cities though, for as bad as their sprawl is, it's not really THAT bad. They're about as dense as the average Canadian city (which is to say they're more dense than most US cities) Not that is necessarily something to brag about but they could make mass transit work much more easily than say Columbus Ohio or even Atlanta.

[rrskylar]

^ LOL!, have you even been to Phoenix or Las Vegas, or have you ever ridden the LRT in Calgary which is usually jammed?

[JayM]

Saw this on yahoo this morning - follow the link for the whole article.
http://ca.autos.yahoo.com/p/299/residents-of-edmonton-calgary-rely-on-their-cars-more-than-other-canadians-study

im surprized you could get around calgary i mean sure its a grid system, but holy hell i dont need to be at the intersection of streets all with the same name. its like different coordinates, nw, ne, sw, se. like kill me. i think when u hit 100 for a street name give up. try some names. places people things.

[JayM]

the city of winnipeg should get some design teams in and design what they think would work, and no use other previous work and images from other LRT systems, make a 3d diagram of the terminals and the lines going from point a to b. ive seen wonderful BRT drawings, but no LRT. i mean with a decent presentation of what they would like to implement maybe outside sources would be willing to invest some money into it. i can tell you right now, having an express bus on the regular route doesnt do squat, wow i saved a whole 5 minutes. kinda hard to get from point to point be travelling faster on the same path as others with 2 lanes, and the right lane is parking, unless there is an actual bus stop. ive seen and been on some buses all going pretty much in the same direction in which maybe 3-4 buses regular and express routes would comeby. the normal intent would be to get on the express, so what does that do? makes the express overloaded, while the regular bus is if anything crowded, and yet they all go to the same place. so yeah i think someone just has to throw something out there and just push this ahead bc, paying more for the fare isnt gonna do it to cover for something that doesnt exist, even on a presentation scale.

[Spocket]

^ LOL!, have you even been to Phoenix or Las Vegas, or have you ever ridden the LRT in Calgary which is usually jammed?

Well Calgary's C-Train has very high ridership. Highest ridership in North America according to some sites. I'm not sure what you find so obnoxious about my comment then.

As for Phoenix or Vegas , no I've never been to either city. Have you ever been to Moscow or Shanghai ? I'm not sure what difference that makes but apparently you think it means something so you'll have to fill me in on why.
So why can't Vegas or Phoenix take a stab at mass transit ? Calgary did it with amazing results and in terms of the how all three of these cities are planned they're not very different from a North American standpoint. Miles and miles of low density sprawl ? They've all got it. Calgary has a disproportionate number of downtown workers compared to other cities in N. America so that explains part of it's LRT success. Of course, Vegas has the Strip. Yeah, Phoenix doesn't have such a strong concentration in any particular place but it does have employment nodes that could be linked up.

In any case, you're entitled to your opinion but at this point I'm not sure exactly what it is. Are you saying that no city should bother even attempting rapid transit in North America because they're already lost causes ? Or are you saying that it'll never work in a million years because it doesn't work in Calgary ? Well, you can't be saying that at all because that's exactly the opposite of the case for Calgary. So what exactly IS your point ?

Heres Las Vegas' rapid transit plans :
http://www.rtcsouthernnevada.com/rfg/project_info.htm

Phoenix :
http://www.valleymetro.org/METRO_light_rail/Default.asp

[furiousmcd]

I've always wondered why it is that discussions like this always become about some other city instead Winnipeg? In my opinion, if Winnipeg is ever going to become a city worthy of any noteworthy attention, it will have to stop constantly checking to see what "smarter cities" are doing and start thinking through problems on its own. Even though they may seem very similar, other cities all have their own issues that are unique to them just like Winnipeg does. It is deeply flawed to think you can copy and paste something another city has done with minimal thought and then expect it to succeed.

[newflyer]

Well Calgary's C-Train has very high ridership. Highest ridership in North America according to some sites. I'm not sure what you find so obnoxious about my comment then.

As for Phoenix or Vegas , no I've never been to either city. Have you ever been to Moscow or Shanghai ? I'm not sure what difference that makes but apparently you think it means something so you'll have to fill me in on why.
So why can't Vegas or Phoenix take a stab at mass transit ? Calgary did it with amazing results and in terms of the how all three of these cities are planned they're not very different from a North American standpoint. Miles and miles of low density sprawl ? They've all got it. Calgary has a disproportionate number of downtown workers compared to other cities in N. America so that explains part of it's LRT success. Of course, Vegas has the Strip. Yeah, Phoenix doesn't have such a strong concentration in any particular place but it does have employment nodes that could be linked up.

In any case, you're entitled to your opinion but at this point I'm not sure exactly what it is. Are you saying that no city should bother even attempting rapid transit in North America because they're already lost causes ? Or are you saying that it'll never work in a million years because it doesn't work in Calgary ? Well, you can't be saying that at all because that's exactly the opposite of the case for Calgary. So what exactly IS your point ?

Heres Las Vegas' rapid transit plans :
http://www.rtcsouthernnevada.com/rfg/project_info.htm

Phoenix :
http://www.valleymetro.org/METRO_light_rail/Default.asp



I'm not trying to put words into peoples mouths, but I think he is saying both LV and Pheonix are extremely high in sprawl. In many ways Calgary's city planning is following this model.

Calgary lacks any real density ouside its city centre.. for the most part. Its full of "trails' , which for the most part are absent of any real density. MacLeod Trail, which could be compared to Portage Ave as a major roadway which is lined with development .. has nowhere near the density. It is largely madeup of stripmalls.... until the southend where it becomes an expressway to carry the mass of cars to and from the outter suburbs everyday. This trend is accelerating in Calgary ... and really Calgary Transit has been a completely enadequite to deal with it.

Calgary does has rapid transit ... but it does not change the fact it is a car dependent city.... with a sea of cookie cutter housing developments heading off as far as the eye can see.

[newflyer]

^ have you ever ridden the LRT in Calgary which is usually jammed?

.. thats an understatement.


It is not uncommon to wait for 3 trains before you can find any space to get on ... and this is early in the morning. If waiting on a platform for 15-25 minutes is considered rapid by Calgary Transit .... they need to give there head a shake.

Calgary does not have good transit.. dispite what may have be assumed by people in Winnipeg. LRT does not nessesarily mean good transit. Capacity also plays a big part.

[flatlander]

Free Public Lecture
Discussion of a National Transit Strategy

Speaker: Michael Roschlau, President and CEO Canadian Urban Transit
Association (CUTA)

Tuesday, January 29, 2008
7:30-9:00 pm.
Convocation Hall,
2nd floor, Wesley Hall
515 Portage Avenue
University of Winnipeg

Hosted by Jenny Gerbasi, Mayor’s Environmental Advisory Committee
Sponsored by the Institute of Urban Studies and the Manitoba
Professional Planners Institute
The IUS Lecture Series is brought to you by Corbett Cibinel Architects

According to Mr. Roschlau, sustainable transportation improves
environment (decreased pollution and land use), health and access (5000
deaths per year in Canada related to pollution), the economy (reduction
in road infrastructure and utility costs) and land use (compact
development saves people time, stress and increased land costs).

Car use is on the increase. More cars demand more road space, more
urban sprawl, and higher-cost economy. Transit ridership has been
steadily rising with overall transit spending declining. This has
resulted in service reductions and fare hikes.

[vid]

Is Winnipeg going to see any increases in transit fees this year? And when was the last one?

It's going up slightly here (10c per ride, 1 to 2$ for monthly passes. Nothing too big) and is the first increase in 5 years.

[The Jabroni]

Is Winnipeg going to see any increases in transit fees this year? And when was the last one?

It's going up slightly here (10c per ride, 1 to 2$ for monthly passes. Nothing too big) and is the first increase in 5 years.

We already did...

http://www.winnipegtransit.com/fares.jsp

[Spocket]

I'm not trying to put words into peoples mouths, but I think he is saying both LV and Pheonix are extremely high in sprawl. In many ways Calgary's city planning is following this model.

Calgary lacks any real density ouside its city centre.. for the most part. Its full of "trails' , which for the most part are absent of any real density. MacLeod Trail, which could be compared to Portage Ave as a major roadway which is lined with development .. has nowhere near the density. It is largely madeup of stripmalls.... until the southend where it becomes an expressway to carry the mass of cars to and from the outter suburbs everyday. This trend is accelerating in Calgary ... and really Calgary Transit has been a completely enadequite to deal with it.

Calgary does has rapid transit ... but it does not change the fact it is a car dependent city.... with a sea of cookie cutter housing developments heading off as far as the eye can see.
Well that's more or less what I figured he was saying. My question still stands then though : since these cities are all planned along the N. American post-WWII sprawl model, what's so wrong about Vegas or Phoenix moving ahead with rapid transit ? It clearly works in Calgary. If anything, Calgary's LRT problem is that they don't have enough of it. Three more lines and it would start to make a real difference in automobile traffic (West along Banff trail or thereabouts , South East to Mackenzie Towne , and North to Harvest Hills) In fact, those are the planned routes for new lines.

Like I said initially though, all three cities are built on sprawl. In fact, I'd even say that they are far more alike in their basic physical form than most other cities in N. America. Calgary's sprawl is almost exactly the same as the sprawl in both Phoenix and LV. I'd even go so far as to suggest that when you look at the two American cities they actually look to be even MORE dense than Calgary (no yards of note) They're all auto-dependant yet for some strange reason, Calgary has one of the most used LRT systems in North America. Imagine if we took all the people who rode the C-Train and put them in cars. Eight lanes of 162nd SW at James McEvitt is the sort of thing you could expect.
In any case, why do I even have to argue the merits of mass rapid transit ? Since when was it a bad idea to support the concept in ANY city ?

[MalcolmTucker]

Calgary's LRT system works because the central business district has around 130,000 office jobs, and less than 30,000 parking spots. Also parking costs close to if not more than $20 a day in most of the core. This year the city beat its own target for number of office jobs downtown, hitting the 2030 number 23 years early.

The system works because of conscious decisions by planners many decades ago to continue to encourage office development in downtown, and to limit parking.

When you measure results for rapid transit systems, you have to look at intended planning goals.

Calgary's LRT system let the city abandon plans to build a 16 lane highway through downtown. The city has also cancelled about half of the arterial highways that were planned for in the 60s, that were to feed the central district.

As for transit being too busy, I would rather have the system be the victim of its own success than not be there at all, or have no riders.

I don't think that too many people use the system is a reason why the system has failed! Despite the crush load at rush hour, more people every month use it, that means it is a shinning success.

That is why Calgary is building a new line, and upgrading existing ones to four car trains. That is why Calgary will likely spend more than $2.5 billion dollars in the next ten years expanding the LRT system, because in poll after poll it is deemed the number one priority of Calgarians.

If any of these things you don't want Winnipeg to emulate, I wonder what you want Winnipeg to become?

[vid]

We already did...

http://www.winnipegtransit.com/fares.jsp

Transit is more expensive there. :/ Except for cash fare, it's equal for now but we might go up to 2.35 in March if council approves it.

How often does it increase?

[The Jabroni]

It depends on Winnipeg Transit, but normally, it takes effect on New Year's Day of a new year.

A few years ago, fares were going up every year. Then it dropped a bit, but then they increase them again.

[flatlander]

It depends on Winnipeg Transit, but normally, it takes effect on New Year's Day of a new year.

A few years ago, fares were going up every year. Then it dropped a bit, but then they increase them again.

I think actually it's a Council decision, isn't it?

[JayM]

I think actually it's a Council decision, isn't it?

im pretty sure that the transit has to get approval for each hike, and they had said the last time they hiked it, that they wouldnt hike for again for a bit, bc at the time it was like what 25 cents or something. i think for 2 yrs it was just 2 bucks, for cash fare. i dunno, but im sure glad u can claim bus passes on income tax. :pet:

[vid]

Here, transit proposes the change and council approves it. Probably why it hasn't gone up in so long.

Our mayor actually knows what she is doing, financially speaking. :) Winnipeg could use a Lynn Peterson.

[The Jabroni]

I don't want to turn this into a pissing contest, but I think our mayor is doing fine. Perhaps, Katz could take a couple pages out of Peterson's book, and vice versa.

[vid]

I don't know, from what I've heard about the guy, I don't want him anywhere near my mayor! :P

[The Jabroni]

I'm specifically talking about books, not relationships. :P

[vid]

That's what I was talking about too. :P

[Greco Roman]

Did anyone happen to read this today?

http://www.winnipegfreepress.com/local/story/4122653p-4716972c.html

[The Jabroni]

I saw it in the FreeP too. Transit running from East St. Paul to downtown would be very interesting.

[JayM]

I saw it in the FreeP too. Transit running from East St. Paul to downtown would be very interesting.

thats interesting, because i was thinking that if they used the same idea to have outside communities with winnipeg transit they could all pitch in towards a larger area to cover, so in this case make a winnipeg transit authority. This would not only control just the buses but also rapid/light rail transit, whichever it may be. atleast u would know when they money that is collected on fares from transit would go back into transit, so i agree with it, the idea of an authority control.

[The Jabroni]

thats interesting, because i was thinking that if they used the same idea to have outside communities with winnipeg transit they could all pitch in towards a larger area to cover, so in this case make a winnipeg transit authority. This would not only control just the buses but also rapid/light rail transit, whichever it may be. atleast u would know when they money that is collected on fares from transit would go back into transit, so i agree with it, the idea of an authority control.

Yes, rather than the money that's currently collected, is being "fooled around" back in the city to pay the drivers and a water park with nothing in return.

I would definitely want an authority who would focus on service and convenience! (Yes! Convenience!)

I'm all up for it.

[jimj_wpg]

A provincial transit authority, similar to BC Transit would be really cool, and GIno is right on the mark... We need a commuter rail service to the bedroom suburbs of Selkirk, etc...

End of the line for Winnipeg Transit? (http://uwto.org/fp/transit_2008provincialauthority.html)

I'm in support of this, if it means kicking out the management of WT who are still wedded to the idea of BRT.

This could actually move us ahead, into the 20th century.

[jimj_wpg]

I saw it in the FreeP too. Transit running from East St. Paul to downtown would be very interesting.

Apparently, back in the days of the 1960s, Metro Winnipeg Transit did provide 1 mile of service to East St. Paul. However, when E St. P decided not to be part of Metro in 1964, Transit service was deleted.

Winnipeg Tribune - August 20, 1964 - East St. Paul's Transit Problem (http://uwto.org/trib/transit_1964eaststpaultransit.html)

44 years later, East St. Paul has expanded, and needs access to public transit service. However, I would not support them amalgamating with Winnipeg itself.Things just work better when they're organized in smaller chunks.

[newflyer]

Apparently, back in the days of the 1960s, Metro Winnipeg Transit did provide 1 mile of service to East St. Paul. However, when E St. P decided not to be part of Metro in 1964, Transit service was deleted.

Winnipeg Tribune - August 20, 1964 - East St. Paul's Transit Problem (http://uwto.org/trib/transit_1964eaststpaultransit.html)

44 years later, East St. Paul has expanded, and needs access to public transit service. However, I would not support them amalgamating with Winnipeg itself.Things just work better when they're organized in smaller chunks.

Yes I agree .. this would be very good for transit. Other city's expand there service to the metro area and it works every well.

[JayM]

Yes I agree .. this would be very good for transit. Other city's expand there service to the metro area and it works every well.

if anything, just knowing your money paid for transit goes to transit, would already be an improvement to the transit system.

[The Jabroni]

if anything, just knowing your money paid for transit goes to transit, would already be an improvement to the transit system.

Yes! Exactly! :cheers:

[flatlander]

Whether or not Transit is a utility seems to be a red herring to me. Who cares if all the transit revenue goes back into general revenues. It's not like they make a profit. Ultimately the City has to subsidize Transit, so it makes no difference whether revenues to to WT or the City.

Sorry guys i just can't get excited about service to East St Paul, LaSalle etc. This is simply spreading out resources over a larger geographic area, without the population to support it. There isn't sufficient density or land use patterns (no industrial/commercial base, low density residential development) to support it.

Why do we want to make it any easier to live and commute from these towns?

[vid]

The city doesn't really profit off of roads either, so what's the point in maintaining those? :rolleyes:

[Spocket]

Whether or not Transit is a utility seems to be a red herring to me. Who cares if all the transit revenue goes back into general revenues. It's not like they make a profit. Ultimately the City has to subsidize Transit, so it makes no difference whether revenues to to WT or the City.

Sorry guys i just can't get excited about service to East St Paul, LaSalle etc. This is simply spreading out resources over a larger geographic area, without the population to support it. There isn't sufficient density or land use patterns (no industrial/commercial base, low density residential development) to support it.

Why do we want to make it any easier to live and commute from these towns?

That's pretty much exactly what I was thinking.

[vid]

Even if we didn't make it easier to commute from those town, people would still move there. Why not decrease their dependency on cars and try to foster a more people-friendly development plan?

[Andy6]

The city doesn't really profit off of roads either, so what's the point in maintaining those? :rolleyes:

Because the economy would collapse without them and there would be no city?

[vid]

I didn't mean highways, I meant side streets. Is it really that taxing on a person to have to walk five minutes to a bus stop? My, how fat we are.

[The Jabroni]

That's pretty much the general attitude for people who complain there's lack of parking in downtown, when there's plenty within a 5 to 10 minute walk within many locales of their own interests.

Idiots.

[vid]

People here don't want our court house proposal to be built near Victoriaville because they're concerned about the parking lot it will replace.

I have never seen the parking lot more than a fifth full -- it has about 80 places and never has more than 15 full -- and not only that, but it serves the mall that everyone complains "never gets used and should be torn down" :koko:

In reality, Victoriaville is very busy and that lot is grossly underused.

[flatlander]

Breaking News
Gerrard wants $75 million for rapid transit
Updated at 2:46 PM

Manitoba Liberal leader Dr. Jon Gerrard wants the province to kick in $75 million towards a future rapid transit system for Winnipeg.

Gerrard made the demand today in anticipation of this spring's provincial budget, Premier Gary Doer's blueprint for spending in the next year.
Gerrard said the New Democrats have to take a leadership role in making a rapid transit system, be it light rail or designated buses, a reality.

He said Doer can no longer preach about the dangers of climate change without doing anything meaningful about it.

City hall has studied the idea of a rapid transit system off and on over the past decade, and most recently hiked transit fares with a percentage of that revenue going to a reserve fund to pay in part for the new system.

Mayor Sam Katz said the city needs to have cash on hand for the day the other levels of government come to him with funding for a rapid transit system. There is no immediate plan to build a rapid transit system for Winnipeg.

[newflyer]

Breaking News
Gerrard wants $75 million for rapid transit
Updated at 2:46 PM

Manitoba Liberal leader Dr. Jon Gerrard wants the province to kick in $75 million towards a future rapid transit system for Winnipeg.

Gerrard made the demand today in anticipation of this spring's provincial budget, Premier Gary Doer's blueprint for spending in the next year.
Gerrard said the New Democrats have to take a leadership role in making a rapid transit system, be it light rail or designated buses, a reality.

He said Doer can no longer preach about the dangers of climate change without doing anything meaningful about it.

City hall has studied the idea of a rapid transit system off and on over the past decade, and most recently hiked transit fares with a percentage of that revenue going to a reserve fund to pay in part for the new system.

Mayor Sam Katz said the city needs to have cash on hand for the day the other levels of government come to him with funding for a rapid transit system. There is no immediate plan to build a rapid transit system for Winnipeg.

$75 million won't build LRT, but it may fund a minimal BRT line. The city now has an order for a number of articulated buses, so a new roadway would only have to be built.

[Spocket]

Breaking News
Gerrard wants $75 million for rapid transit
Updated at 2:46 PM

Manitoba Liberal leader Dr. Jon Gerrard wants the province to kick in $75 million towards a future rapid transit system for Winnipeg.

Gerrard made the demand today in anticipation of this spring's provincial budget, Premier Gary Doer's blueprint for spending in the next year.
Gerrard said the New Democrats have to take a leadership role in making a rapid transit system, be it light rail or designated buses, a reality.

He said Doer can no longer preach about the dangers of climate change without doing anything meaningful about it.

City hall has studied the idea of a rapid transit system off and on over the past decade, and most recently hiked transit fares with a percentage of that revenue going to a reserve fund to pay in part for the new system.

Mayor Sam Katz said the city needs to have cash on hand for the day the other levels of government come to him with funding for a rapid transit system. There is no immediate plan to build a rapid transit system for Winnipeg.

And that's why I voted for Gerrard last time round.
Katz's comments make me see red though. There were plans , there was money , and it's been studied to death you dolt !!!!

[jimj_wpg]

Breaking News
Gerrard wants $75 million for rapid transit
Updated at 2:46 PM

Manitoba Liberal leader Dr. Jon Gerrard wants the province to kick in $75 million towards a future rapid transit system for Winnipeg.

Where did you find this? CBC, CJOB, Freep?

Always, always, always post your source.

[newflyer]

And that's why I voted for Gerrard last time round.
Katz's comments make me see red though. There were plans , there was money , and it's been studied to death you dolt !!!!

Katz has invested over 130 million in transit since becoming mayor.. including orders for articulated busses, which will eventually be used for a real BRT line. This is significantly more than Murray spent on transit in his whole term as mayor.

The fact is Murray's rapid transit plan was pure fantasy .. he expected us to believe you can build some high tech GTS guilded BRT system .. with desiginated roadways .. and BRT stations .. and busses for less than 100 million. It was a joke.. yet some people actually took his campaign promise seriously :shrug:

Considering Katz has spend more than 60 million on busses (not computer guided) alone ... I would expect a complete BRT line from downtown to the university of Manitoba along the line of Ottawa's BRT would run at least $200M including stations with park and ride, and a designated roadway if you consider what other cities are paying.

Doer needs to come to the table in a big way... the $140M shortfall.

[jimj_wpg]

Most cities are following the white concept .. its cheaper not to have to paint the buses. They are delivered white.. so just add some decals and you're on your way.

I'm willing to believe its part of a Commie conspiracy... after all it is the Commies that want everything (black Lada cars) and everybody (via the human rights act) the same... Back in the days of the USSR, all Lada cars were the same colour tone. Black.

http://www.torquecars.co.uk/rides/lada-styling.jpg
Image Courtesy of TorqueCars.co.uk

[flatlander]

Where did you find this? CBC, CJOB, Freep?

Always, always, always post your source.

Sorry, think it was the Free Press.

[ScrappyPeg]

I'm willing to believe its part of a Commie conspiracy... after all it is the Commies that want everything (black Lada cars) and everybody (via the human rights act) the same... Back in the days of the USSR, all Lada cars were the same colour tone. Black.

http://www.torquecars.co.uk/rides/lada-styling.jpg
Image Courtesy of TorqueCars.co.uk


Wasn't that also true of Henry Ford's Model-T? Was Henry Ford a Communist?

[vid]

Wasn't that also true of Henry Ford's Model-T? Was Henry Ford a Communist?

No, Henry Ford was American, therefore he was a hero.

[jimj_wpg]

Modern look? It looks like TV graphics from the 90s, with the grey gradient trying to look like metal or something. It's really a boring crap design, imo.

Yes I have to agree, I hate the 90s too, except for the invention of the WWW.

[vid]

Oh I don't hate the 90s, I just hate what we thought looked cool in the 90s. Neon, mullets, and metal gradients aside, the 90s were freakin' sweet.

I miss my childhood. :(

[jimj_wpg]

Not sure if this is posted already.....

http://www.winnipegtransit.com/pdfs/Transit%20improvements1107.pdf

Coming from a daily transit rider for over 3yrs now..... all I can say is this is definitely better then nothing. Slowly but surely our transit system is improving!

I would still prefer some sort of rapid transit system however our bus transit system was lacking big time and needed this improvement badly.

So... hopefully our city and government will recognize the importance of implementing a made in city rapid transit system...

Errr, "Made in Winnipeg" rapid transit system is just "code" for Bus Rapid Transit.... BRT isn't really rapid.

BTW, aren't you for the subway plan anyways?

[newflyer]

And that's why I voted for Gerrard last time round.
Katz's comments make me see red though. There were plans , there was money , and it's been studied to death you dolt !!!!

Really?? There were plans??

Please share.

Where exactly was this transit line going to run. Where were the stations to be located?? How many stations would there be? What were the stations going to cost?? Did the city have all the nessesary land or would they have to purchase any land?? How much of the line would be designated transit line.. how much would be diamond lanes. Where would the rapid transit line run in downtown and how would it have linked to the south line? What was the projected total cost.

I never heard any real plans... just some general concepts and the sounds of forumers wetting themselves. Perhaps you have better sources than I do.

[1ajs]

in 1959 he had a subway plan pass city hall then a new mayor came in and squashed it if i am not mistaken
http://uwto.org/documents/transit_1959normanwilson.html
http://truwinnipeg.org/images/finalmap.gif


anyhow the plan that came under murry for the brt line had secured land that cn was going to sell to the city but we lost when katz scraped the brt witch was to become lrt in the future

[rrskylar]

Those lines would be kind of useless today, Stephen Juba was Mayor of Winnipeg from 1957 to 1977.

[jimj_wpg]

Those lines would be kind of useless today, Stephen Juba was Mayor of Winnipeg from 1957 to 1977.

Who is or was Mayor of Winnpeg in the 1950s has nothing to do with this rapid transit plan.. Juba was for a f*(kin' monorail, not an underground subway. :hell:

[Spocket]

Really?? There were plans??

Please share.

Where exactly was this transit line going to run. Where were the stations to be located?? How many stations would there be? What were the stations going to cost?? Did the city have all the nessesary land or would they have to purchase any land?? How much of the line would be designated transit line.. how much would be diamond lanes. Where would the rapid transit line run in downtown and how would it have linked to the south line? What was the projected total cost.

I never heard any real plans... just some general concepts and the sounds of forumers wetting themselves. Perhaps you have better sources than I do.
Well it was in the papers ad-nauseum so I'm not sure how you missed it. The first leg of the corridor from about Confusion Corner to Jubilee was ready to go as I recall. Detailed plans probably were never drawn up since the project was cancelled the minute Katz took over. That was the first section that was utlimately going to connect downtown to the U of M. Don't you remember the big brouhaha that everybody around here made when Katz tried to take the cash from the feds that was earmarked for rapid transit and put it into community centers and what not ? How did you miss it ?

Anyway, I'm not going to argue over what are essentially minor details here.
Murray had us all set to go on the first leg of a rapid transit corridor. Katz cancelled it. If you want to look it up go ahead and correct me but the basic plan was concrete and there was , if not all, a substantial amount of the money required.

[Andy6]

Well it was in the papers ad-nauseum so I'm not sure how you missed it. The first leg of the corridor from about Confusion Corner to Jubilee was ready to go as I recall. Detailed plans probably were never drawn up since the project was cancelled the minute Katz took over. That was the first section that was utlimately going to connect downtown to the U of M. Don't you remember the big brouhaha that everybody around here made when Katz tried to take the cash from the feds that was earmarked for rapid transit and put it into community centers and what not ? How did you miss it ?

Anyway, I'm not going to argue over what are essentially minor details here.
Murray had us all set to go on the first leg of a rapid transit corridor. Katz cancelled it. If you want to look it up go ahead and correct me but the basic plan was concrete and there was , if not all, a substantial amount of the money required.

What kind of rapid transit was this going to be?

[Spocket]

^BRT with Murray's "Sexy buses".

[The Jabroni]

^With that, had he been still around, he would have thrown a "sexy party" along with it. :jester:

[amanfromnowhere]

interesting...

Winnipeg to tap into transit money
Winnipeg Mayor Sam Katz was also encouraged by some aspects of Tuesday's budget.

He was pleased to hear the federal gas-tax fund will become permanent, saying it's money sorely needed to help with cities' infrastructure deficits.

"I hope that they take into consideration that down the road today's dollar will not have the same value, so I hope they build something in for inflation," he said.

The mayor also said the city will work to get its share of $500 million in new federal money made available for public transit projects.

The projects must be identified by March, but Katz doesn't think that will be a problem.

"I'm sure there will be many cities and municipalities looking at this funding, so whatever the numbers start off with, once you start dividing it, it can be much smaller," he said. "By the same token, I think it's incumbent upon us to go out there actively and pursue that funding."

Several possible transit projects are on the table, he said, including rapid transit.

CBC News

[Greco Roman]

^ I'll believe that when I see the moron deliver on it. :cool:

[ILYR]

500 million across Canada for public transit. Consider the top 10 largest centres in Canada. Spread that money out based on say per-capita transit use or population.

Population based on 2006 Census metropolitan areas
Toronto 5,113,149
Montreal 3,635,571
Vancouver 2,116,581
Ottawa-Gatineau 1,130,761
Calgary 1,079,310
Edmonton 1,034,945
Quebec City 715,515
Winnipeg 694,668
Hamilton (Burlington) 692,911
London 457,720

Total 16,671,131
Winnipeg % 4.2
So if this is the basis for the money Winnipeg would see 21,000,000
This could be useful, but is very minimal with respect to the cost of a rapid transit system. Hopefully the City will use it wisely.

[1ajs]

interesting curve ball from the mayor...

[vid]

500 million across Canada for public transit. Consider the top 10 largest centres in Canada. Spread that money out based on say per-capita transit use or population.

Population based on 2006 Census metropolitan areas
Toronto 5,113,149
Montreal 3,635,571
Vancouver 2,116,581
Ottawa-Gatineau 1,130,761
Calgary 1,079,310
Edmonton 1,034,945
Quebec City 715,515
Winnipeg 694,668
Hamilton (Burlington) 692,911
London 457,720

Total 16,671,131
Winnipeg % 4.2
So if this is the basis for the money Winnipeg would see 21,000,000
This could be useful, but is very minimal with respect to the cost of a rapid transit system. Hopefully the City will use it wisely.

IIRC, that money is only going to Toronto, Vancouver and Montreal, which is why Calgary's mayor was pissed off about it. Sorry. :( On the bright side, municipalities are getting a share of the federal gas tax. I know Thunder Bay will be putting that into transit expenditures so I assume Winnipeg will do the same?

[Andy6]

IIRC, that money is only going to Toronto, Vancouver and Montreal, which is why Calgary's mayor was pissed off about it. Sorry. :( On the bright side, municipalities are getting a share of the federal gas tax. I know Thunder Bay will be putting that into transit expenditures so I assume Winnipeg will do the same?

Really? Why would the Tories give that much money to three cities in which they have zero MPs (excluding David Emerson and a few Vancouver-area ridings) while ignoring all the other cities, like Quebec, Edmonton, Calgary and Winnipeg, where they have numerous MPs? Certainly a first in the history of Canadian politics if true.

[rypinion]

Really? Why would the Tories give that much money to three cities in which they have zero MPs (excluding David Emerson and a few Vancouver-area ridings) while ignoring all the other cities, like Quebec, Edmonton, Calgary and Winnipeg, where they have numerous MPs? Certainly a first in the history of Canadian politics if true.

Why would they spend money where they already have support? They need to gain support in those other places to get a majority. It makes total sense if they are just playing politics, which is what they always seem to be doing.

Now, if they were actually trying to do some good, they'd probably be doing things differently.

[Andy6]

Why would they spend money where they already have support? They need to gain support in those other places to get a majority. It makes total sense if they are just playing politics, which is what they always seem to be doing.

It would be quite a new way of "playing politics" to funnel 100% of porkbarrel spending into opposition MPs' ridings. That might well be a first in 140 1/2 years of Confederation.

[Spocket]

That really doesn't make any sense. Assuming that it's true that this money is only going to three cities, that kind of baby-kissing is so transparent it wouldn't go over well even in the cities that did get the cash.

[ILYR]

IIRC, that money is only going to Toronto, Vancouver and Montreal, which is why Calgary's mayor was pissed off about it. Sorry. :( On the bright side, municipalities are getting a share of the federal gas tax. I know Thunder Bay will be putting that into transit expenditures so I assume Winnipeg will do the same?

This is taken from the federal budget:

"The government has also set aside up to $500 million for public transit projects that have been previously announced or where municipal commitments will be made before the end of March. " Meaning this is open to any municipality.

It also says:

"It includes money for:
The Evergreen Light Rapid Transit System in Vancouver.
The re-establishment of a rail link between Peterborough, Ont., and Union Station in Toronto.
New equipment and upgrades to dedicated rapid transit routes for the Aéroports de Montréal."

Now how the federal governement actually split the money up is entirely up in the air. Remember the government was using the Budget to try and force an election (as with the mission in Afganistan). So much of this can be simple window washing in preperation for an election.

[vid]

Well that's different than what I heard. If that's the case then that $500M is even less than it seems.

Better start lobbying.

[ILYR]

Well that's different than what I heard. If that's the case then that $500M is even less than it seems.

Better start lobbying.

The information I got was from the budget speech, which is available online. But I agree even it is only 500 million, cities will fight hard for there part, even if that is only a few million. In the case of Winnipeg, even if it got only 10 million that could help purchase more hybrid-buses and reduce their overall fuel costs, which is their greatest expense.

Personally I think the Harper government is completely (and I empashize this) out to lunch on the positive benifit to well-funded mass transit systems in densely populated areas. I will, however, give them credit on making bus passes tax deductable (although that idea has been around for a least 20 years).

[Corndogger]

Well that's different than what I heard. If that's the case then that $500M is even less than it seems.

Better start lobbying.

It's $500 million over two years! The money is being distributed on a per capita basis. Alberta is getting a whopping $53 million over the two years. The only thing that small amount of money will be good for is buying buses.

[youngregina]

why would vancouver get any of this money,, didnt they just get something like oh i dont know,, 14 billion dollars for vancouver and surrounding area. Like the 500 million i think should go towards cities that have the shittiest transit systems. Like regina, thunder bay,, even saskatoon. but dont get me wrong,, i would like to see a great deal of this caash to go to winnipeg.

[vid]

Thunder Bay has a decent system. The only thing we need to improve is frequency on a couple routes. The city could easily do it by hiring two more drivers and retiring only one bus this spring. But, they're cheap.

Thunder Bay is one of those "don't tax or spend" cities. :rolleyes:

[204]

why would vancouver get any of this money,, didnt they just get something like oh i dont know,, 14 billion dollars for vancouver and surrounding area. Like the 500 million i think should go towards cities that have the shittiest transit systems. Like regina, thunder bay,, even saskatoon. but dont get me wrong,, i would like to see a great deal of this caash to go to winnipeg.

Unfortunately our craptastic federal government doles out these sort of funds based on how many votes they think they can get.

There are more taxpayers in Metro Vancouver than in all of Manitoba and Saskatchewan combined.

[Only The Lonely..]

Six times as many Winnipeggers commute by car than bus: Stats Can

By THE CANADIAN PRESS

OTTAWA — The car is still king when it comes to commuting in the Winnipeg region as new census data shows that more than six times as many people use a vehicle to get to work than use public transit.

Statistics Canada released more information from the 2006 census Tuesday, including details on where Canadians work, how they most often get there and how long they travel.

The census shows there are 347,000 commuters in what’s known as the census metropolitan area of Winnipeg and that 78.7% of them either drive to work or are passengers in someone else’s vehicle.

That compares to 13% of commuters in the region who used public transit. Other ways people in the Winnipeg area got to work: 5.8% walked and 1.6% used their bike.

The census shows commuters in the Winnipeg region have increased their reliance on the car to get to work since the last census in 2001.

Five years ago, Statistics Canada reported that 78.6% of commuters used a car to get to work — either as the driver or a passenger.

The median commuting distance in 2006 was 6.1 kilometres. Five years ago, the median distance was 6.0.

The term median distance is defined by Statistics Canada as the point where one half of the region’s population travels more than that distance and the other half travels less. Commuting distance is measured on a straight line from home to work — not the actual route travelled, which for most commuters would be longer.

[1ajs]

cars are king in this city duh we already knew that would be nice to get it balanced but thats going to take years to do but still a goal for this city to set!

[trueviking]

Really?? There were plans??

Please share.

Where exactly was this transit line going to run. Where were the stations to be located?? How many stations would there be? What were the stations going to cost?? Did the city have all the nessesary land or would they have to purchase any land?? How much of the line would be designated transit line.. how much would be diamond lanes. Where would the rapid transit line run in downtown and how would it have linked to the south line? What was the projected total cost.

I never heard any real plans... just some general concepts and the sounds of forumers wetting themselves. Perhaps you have better sources than I do.

no...there were plans...i saw them...i wish i had scanned them.

the line ran along the rail corridor down pembina through osborne village...it became designated lane after that, to graham i believe...it was also designated lane on pembina south of jubilee as i recall.....the typical stop was drawn up as well....i'll search my office to see if i can find them.

your defence of katz and his visionary transit plan is comical.

cutting centre venture and arts funding so he can put 2 million in the bank for rapid transit is ridiculous....pure political games....only 25 more years of that and he will have the 50 million that murray had secured and katz threw away 3 years ago.

[newflyer]

no...there were plans...i saw them...i wish i had scanned them.

the line ran along the rail corridor down pembina through osborne village...it became designated lane after that, to graham i believe...it was also designated lane on pembina south of jubilee as i recall.....the typical stop was drawn up as well....i'll search my office to see if i can find them.

your defence of katz and his visionary transit plan is comical.

cutting centre venture and arts funding so he can put 2 million in the bank for rapid transit is ridiculous....pure political games....only 25 more years of that and he will have the 50 million that murray had secured and katz threw away 3 years ago.

I am not saying there weren't plans, but I know I never saw them. What I do remember Murray the snake oil salesman trying to sell some fangled BRT on guided tracks with actual stations, and even mention of a bridge crossing Main Street ... with very little details of cost or actual plans of how it would be layed out. If you say you saw them I will have to believe you, but I still maintain Murray was blowing sunshine out his butt to try to save his deflating political career.

The fact that you ignore that Katz has already invested more real money in Winnipeg Transit than Murray did in his whole stay as mayor is what is really comical. Your selective point of view always amazes me.

As far as Katz's recent budget I am disappointed to say the least, but nobody here can suggest Winnipeg Transit hasn't recieved a great deal of fundung under Katz. Some 130 million plus .. as well as a rapid transit fund which has already eclipsed Murray's meger contribution to his famous magic BRT line.

[Spocket]

Um, no and no.
Murray had more money in the pot for BRT than Katz does because Katz is using what was a dedicated fund for rapid transit for other things.

As for this $130 million you keep talking about...where ? I haven't seen any real improvements. Where are the bus shacks, the replaced bus fleet, dedicated lanes...anything ? I hear we have a new articulated bus but that doesn't quite strike me as a $130 million dollar investment.

[Andy6]

I am not saying there weren't plans, but I know I never saw them. What I do remember Murray the snake oil salesman trying to sell some fangled BRT on guided tracks with actual stations, and even mention of a bridge crossing Main Street ... with very little details of cost or actual plans of how it would be layed out. If you say you saw them I will have to believe you, but I still maintain Murray was blowing sunshine out his butt to try to save his deflating political career.

The fact that you ignore that Katz has already invested more real money in Winnipeg Transit than Murray did in his whole stay as mayor is what is really comical. Your selective point of view always amazes me.

As far as Katz's recent budget I am disappointed to say the least, but nobody here can suggest Winnipeg Transit hasn't recieved a great deal of fundung under Katz. Some 130 million plus .. as well as a rapid transit fund which has already eclipsed Murray's meger contribution to his famous magic BRT line.

There were renderings because we saw them on this forum. They were mostly the "artist's conception" sort of thing that don't bear any resemblance to what would actually be built. I think the reality of Winnipeg is that maintaining existing infrastructure is always going to eat up the lion's share of any money that is available. Layering whole new types of infrastructure on top of what already exists (especially notoriously expensive types like rapid transit) is realistically a non-starter and a misuse of resources in my opinion. The best plan is to make some incremental improvements in the existing system, such as dedicated lanes where they are cheap to build, better scheduling and route interconnections, and more comfortable buses.

[newflyer]

Um, no and no.
Murray had more money in the pot for BRT than Katz does because Katz is using what was a dedicated fund for rapid transit for other things.

As for this $130 million you keep talking about...where ? I haven't seen any real improvements. Where are the bus shacks, the replaced bus fleet, dedicated lanes...anything ? I hear we have a new articulated bus but that doesn't quite strike me as a $130 million dollar investment.

Yes, and yes.. look into the facts.

I said real money .. not some fague political promise to spend money on a plan which from what I can tell didn't really exsist, beyond it was to consist of the letters B..R..T. :rolleyes:

[newflyer]

For those of you who don't recall...

37 new heated shelters for bus riders

Winnipeg Transit riders will be able to wait comfortably inside 37 new heated bus shelters this winter as the city begins to roll out some of the transit-system enhancements announced 18 months ago.

In February 2006, the city announced $143 million worth of improvements to Winnipeg Transit, including new conventional and diesel-electric hybrid buses, more dedicated bus lanes, new information kiosks, electronic arrival-time displays, upgraded bus stops at busy interchanges and new heated and unheated shelters.

This morning, transit director Dave Wardrop said 104 new shelters -- including 37 heated structures -- were completed this year as part of upgrades to bus stops along major routes such as Pembina Highway as well as downtown.

The city has spent approximately $7 million on transit improvements this year, aided in part of federal gas-tax revenue as well as provincial funding.

But the new articulated diesel-electric "bendy buses" won't be on the streets until one of the new hybrid vehicles undergoes a cold-weather test run this winter.

Yes .. all those new busses including hybred units and new heated shelters have a cost. The city is also expected at add GPS linked electronic diplays to major downtown stops later this year... letting passengers know the ETA for there bus.

[newflyer]

There were renderings because we saw them on this forum. They were mostly the "artist's conception" sort of thing that don't bear any resemblance to what would actually be built. I think the reality of Winnipeg is that maintaining existing infrastructure is always going to eat up the lion's share of any money that is available. Layering whole new types of infrastructure on top of what already exists (especially notoriously expensive types like rapid transit) is realistically a non-starter and a misuse of resources in my opinion. The best plan is to make some incremental improvements in the existing system, such as dedicated lanes where they are cheap to build, better scheduling and route interconnections, and more comfortable buses.

I agree... and the addition of the airconditioned new articulated buses will definately add to the comfort of our transit.

[Spocket]

Yes, and yes.. look into the facts.

I said real money .. not some fague political promise to spend money on a plan which from what I can tell didn't really exsist, beyond it was to consist of the letters B..R..T. :rolleyes:

Good grief, didn't you read any other comments in this thread ? You managed to even quote one right above yet you missed the very first sentence. For a little more detail (and so as to address the second line of the quote) read what TrueViking had to say about the matter. If you don't want to take my word for it then fine but there are others who seem to remember as well. The money wasn't just a 'vague political promise'. Have you not been paying any attention at all ?

And as to these great improvements : Well, where are they ? Come on now, you keep blathering on about how things are so much better now so , where are these improvements ? They coming tomorrow ? Next week ? Next year ? It's not really a momentous cash infusion of about $140 million bucks if it's spent over the course of a decade. After all, the city spends millions every year to operate transit and that includes having to buy new buses, replace shelters, so on an so forth.

So far, lemme see here : okay, we've got an articulated bus (is it actually part of the every day fleet yet ?) and drivers have to waste time and endanger their passengers by calling out every stop name.

[rypinion]

They have redone a number of bus shelters and signs, especially downtown. The transit website has photos of some of the new shelters and bus lanes.

The quote from newflyer doesn't quite work though - none of the new heated shelters worked this winter. There was a free press article about it a while back.

[The Jabroni]

^Yeah, although they were working intermittently, the rest weren't even working because they didn't even connect the power to those heaters.

Hell, even the lights weren't working inside the shelters and the new bus stop terminal signs.

[Pootkao]

The quote from newflyer doesn't quite work though - none of the new heated shelters worked this winter. There was a free press article about it a while back.

He's the king of ideology without the facts to back it up.

[1ajs]

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2074/2325322954_a446223121_o.jpg

[Jimbo]

The thing I hate about heated bus shelters is it's just a place for those annoying bums to collect in.

They'll huddle in a busshack, asking for money.
Or you'll just find one passed out in one.

[1ajs]

i can't stand those shelters they smell like ass

[The Jabroni]

Yesterday, I walked into that exact bus shelter in front of the Concert Hall, and damn, it smelt like ass and road salt.

It was horrible. :(

[Only The Lonely..]

Yesterday, I walked into that exact bus shelter in front of the Concert Hall, and damn, it smelt like ass and road salt.

It was horrible. :(

My senses totally came alive reading that.

[Only The Lonely..]

There were renderings because we saw them on this forum. They were mostly the "artist's conception" sort of thing that don't bear any resemblance to what would actually be built. I think the reality of Winnipeg is that maintaining existing infrastructure is always going to eat up the lion's share of any money that is available. Layering whole new types of infrastructure on top of what already exists (especially notoriously expensive types like rapid transit) is realistically a non-starter and a misuse of resources in my opinion. The best plan is to make some incremental improvements in the existing system, such as dedicated lanes where they are cheap to build, better scheduling and route interconnections, and more comfortable buses.

So how's our situation any different than in Toronto? Didn't they close the newest leg of the subway system for those same reasons?

To be honest, aside from Vancouver's Olympic cash injection I’m not sure how any Canadian city can pay for new infrastructure.

In terms of cheap transit solutions the best thing we could do is revamp the Crosstown buses and turn them into super expresses. I should be able to take the 77 Crosstown North and travel unimpeded between regional shopping centres.

As it stands now, the 77 is probably the worst thing done in the name of compromise.

[The Jabroni]

In terms of cheap transit solutions the best thing we could do is revamp the Crosstown buses and turn them into super expresses. I should be able to take the 77 Crosstown North and travel unimpeded between regional shopping centres.

As it stands now, the 77 is probably the worst thing done in the name of compromise.

The 77 IS the worst thing done in the name of compromise. :yuck:

The current route as it stands is horrible, as it runs through the North/Northwest Winnipeg suburbs in the most "zig-zaggity" way.

http://img255.imageshack.us/img255/4184/route77wo0.jpg

Now a modded route (avoiding the northwestern suburbs in Yellow)
http://img217.imageshack.us/img217/5864/route77modbz9.jpg

Or just for the hell of it, a Crosstown Direct - East/West route (yellow/green via Point Douglas, blue/green via St. Boniface)
http://img217.imageshack.us/img217/8603/crosstowndirecteastwestyx6.jpg

[1ajs]

the 77 is the way it is cause it serves so many students