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View Full Version : LOUISVILLE | Museum Plaza | 696 FT / 214 M | 61 FLOORS



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mudvayneimn
Jan 21, 2008, 7:27 PM
Oh no, it's located right beside the Muhammad Ali Center and the Kentucky Center for the arts. There are also many art shops, cafe's, and resturants in the area. The belvedere is also not too far away. It's very lively right now, but once the Muhammad Ali Center and this project are finished, the area will be way more popular. The Downtown Arena project is also right down the street so Downtown Louisville is only going to become more popular in the next few years! :banana:

Buck
Jan 21, 2008, 7:31 PM
Fantastic!

I should road trip it up there sometime. I've only been to Lexington and Cincinatti up there.

mudvayneimn
Jan 21, 2008, 9:33 PM
Well if you do road trip it up here, come April 12th! :D

Buck
Jan 22, 2008, 12:21 AM
What is on the 12th?

chefjeff28
Jan 22, 2008, 12:31 AM
I think Thunder of Louisville is April 12th. Its a giant fireworks show to kickoff the Derby Festival, 3 weeks of partying for a 2 minute race. :cheers:

chefjeff28
Jan 22, 2008, 12:33 AM
Oh no, it's located right beside the Muhammad Ali Center and the Kentucky Center for the arts. There are also many art shops, cafe's, and resturants in the area. The belvedere is also not too far away. It's very lively right now, but once the Muhammad Ali Center and this project are finished, the area will be way more popular. The Downtown Arena project is also right down the street so Downtown Louisville is only going to become more popular in the next few years! :banana:

Don't forget the Slugger Museum, Glassworks, Science museum and Frazier arms museum all within a few blocks. Also you got the 21C hotel which has a contemporary art museum in the lobby.

mudvayneimn
Jan 22, 2008, 2:20 AM
^^Not just a giant fireworks display...the largest you will find in the U.S ;)... Macy's 4th of July fireworks display used 30,000 shells in 2007 (they said it was the world's largest) Thunder 2007 had 62,000 shells! There is also a killer airshow that is in the Top 5 in the Nation that starts at 3pm.

Here's a link to a clip of the Grand Finale (http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x1s4fl_thunder-over-louisville-2007-finale_events). The show itself is about 28 minutes long.:yes:

Louisville Lowes
Jan 22, 2008, 5:37 PM
Does anyone know why its taking forever for the Zirmed site on 9th street and Market to change and to see some site, of a crane the footer has been set for at least two months.

mudvayneimn
Jan 22, 2008, 6:32 PM
Here is the newest proposal to hit Louisville's skyline, Capital Plaza is a 380ft, 25 story skyscraper (47ft shorter than the Humana Bldg) to be built on a surface lot which fits right in between Humana and MP in the skyline from Indiana.

Posted by Urbler os SSC:
http://www.brokensidewalk.com/storage/capital_plaza_02.jpg
Rendering from Baker Barrios Architects, Atlanta Office

louisville_sky
Jan 24, 2008, 10:58 PM
:previous: When I heard of that proposal and saw the rendering, it was like a chorus of angels started to sing! I know when skyscrapers are proposed, the most important thing is NOT how it's going to fit in w/the rest of the skyline. But if Capital Plaza is built, it will definitely help fill in the gap between Humana and Museum Plaza.

I wish we could see more renderings of the skyline+MP from different angles rather than from Indiana. It will blend nicely w/the rest of the skyline from so many different angles (mainly from the east and west). Just think how awesome it will look driving east on I-64 from Indiana... I can't wait to watch this building go up.

bw87a
Jan 27, 2008, 8:07 PM
This image was found on the city-data.com forum. If built, this building would be a great 'filler' between MP and the rest of the CBD. As for the design, I think it's great. It's a mere glass structure with a decent top. I also posted this in the General Louisville Development thread since this thread is actually about MP, but since there was a discussion about the building in this thread, I included it here as well.
Originally Posted by stx12499 on CityData Forum
http://i123.photobucket.com/albums/o313/bw87a/Random/skyline01.jpg

RockHillJames
Jan 30, 2008, 1:29 AM
Kind of reminds me of 3 Wachovia in Charlotte:

http://www.childressklein.com/uploads/documents/Properties/Charlotte/3fuc.jpg

rpb502
Feb 12, 2008, 8:39 AM
anything new on capital plaza or mp?

Louisville Lowes
Feb 24, 2008, 11:39 PM
I Stopped By The Site Today And All The Cranes Were Gone. Were Did They Go? There Was Three Or Four There The Other Day.

mudvayneimn
Feb 25, 2008, 12:46 AM
They have stopped heavy construction because the way they were doing it was starting to damage nearby buildings. There hasn't been much activity in the last 2-3 weeks as they are finding a new way to lay the foundation. Don't worry though, the project isn't in any financial jeopardy, it's just a minor setback which happens sometimes. :)

bw87a
Feb 25, 2008, 8:04 PM
since i'm a student at the university of oklahoma, i don't get to see the site work very often. i'd love if someone there could keep us updated for all of us that aren't there to see it. i enjoy getting on here and seeing pictures of the site.
i know this is a little bit out of thread, but does anyone know how the fleur de lis is coming along on main street? i don't think there is a separate thread for that topic. (maybe?)

cwilson
Feb 25, 2008, 9:57 PM
GREAT!! Pictures look good:)

Tom Servo
Feb 25, 2008, 10:26 PM
http://i123.photobucket.com/albums/o313/bw87a/Random/skyline01.jpg
awesome.

duckster
Feb 27, 2008, 10:55 PM
Source:
http://www.fox41.com

"ONLY ON FOX: Museum Plaza construction halts due to vibrations

Construction of the Museum Plaza project has been stopped after complaints about vibrations along historic Main Street.

New equipment will be brought in, in an effort to keep the project going without disturbing the area.

The big construction cranes that have been at the site since last fall are gone now, and work there for the time being has stopped. The site of Museum Plaza is adajacent to a number of historic buildings along Main Street, some which date back to the 1800's. There was concern that the vibrations from the construction of casons, or giant pillars -- part of the foundation -- were a danger to the older nearby buildings.

At $465 million, the Museum Plaza development is one of the largest projects in the city's history. When completed, it will be the tallest building in the state at 62 stories. Plans call for a museum, hotel, condos, and offices. Some the merchants along that part of West Main Street tell Fox 41's Bill Francis that there was some serious shaking going on for several days, and they are glad now that it's stopped.

Developer Craig Greenberg calls this a minor setback, and says the delay may even allow the developers to purchase some building materials at a cheaper price. He says its too early to say if the delay will affect the expected completion date, of late 2010."

BigDan35
Feb 28, 2008, 5:01 AM
http://i123.photobucket.com/albums/o313/bw87a/Random/skyline01.jpg
awesome.

Maybe this building will have to grow on me...or maybe it looks better from different angles but at least from this angle, I don't like it. I think it looks like some blocks were just stacked together and it looks out of place in the skyline. Like I said though...this might be a building that grows on me. I'll have to wait and see.

Magnus1
Feb 29, 2008, 7:45 PM
http://i123.photobucket.com/albums/o313/bw87a/Random/skyline01.jpg
awesome.

yeah!! mp and capital together is some drastic change. I like em both. Louisville's skyline will be smashing in 2 yrs or so. i really liked the time i spent in louisville. Perfect size 4 me.

Crunked Up
Mar 4, 2008, 10:13 PM
Louisville should invest in something like Detroit's "People Mover" & have it loop to Museum Plaza, 4th St. Live, & the new Arena. It might make sense to have a connection pt. near the hospitals & campus.

weathermanstar
Mar 4, 2008, 11:10 PM
I think Louisville is best of city, I went going to downtown on the between 6 street- market street about caption plaza tower. I look on caption plaza on market street. look like huge city, maybe more skycraper in louisville.

ethereal_reality
Mar 4, 2008, 11:52 PM
Museum Plaza is arguably the most progressive skyscraper u/c in the United States. I think it's absolutely great!

cactus22minus1
Mar 5, 2008, 2:06 AM
:previous: Louisville is very progressive in many ways. Unexpected, maybe, but true.

RNichols
Mar 5, 2008, 7:32 PM
I'll be visiting town on March 15 from Chicago. I plan to go by the construction site and see whats up. I think I'll stop by Mortons Steck House ( a Chicago favorite) for a nice meal afterwards and head down to 4th Street Live later in the evening to experience Louisville's nightlife.

Great job on the rebranding effort Louisville! :tup:

rpb502
Mar 6, 2008, 10:03 AM
Construction might not be going on when you are here RNichols.

It has been halted due to damage to nearby buildings, and apparently, the entire project COULD be in jeopardy.

Here a new article about MP from The Courier-Journal.

http://www.courier-journal.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20080305/NEWS01/80305048

RNichols
Mar 7, 2008, 12:10 AM
The council approved the Museum Plaza bonds in December, but asked that the four developers sign a personal guarantee that the city's money would be returned if the project was not completed.

The council's Budget Committee passed more than $41.5million in bonds for firehouse and suburban road improvements and such projects as a new zoo exhibit and expansion of Papa John's Cardinal Stadium tonight.

But members expressed concern that the city was about to issue the bonds without that guarantee in place.

They asked that an amendment be written into the ordinance allowing the bond issuance but saying public money will not be released for the project until the guarantee is in place, and the developers had secured a $300million construction loan.

The 62-story building at Seventh Street and River Road is scheduled to open in 2011.

Construction halted indefinitely in January because drilling into bedrock created vibrations along Main Street.

Craig Greenberg, one of the four developers, said in an interview today that they are close to signing the guarantee and development agreement with the city.

"We have never expected to use any of these bond proceeds until all agreements with the city are signed and are consistent with the proposals approved by the council," Greenberg said. "There will be a completion guarantee in place. There is no disagreement over that."

Greenberg would not say specifically when construction at the site will resume, other than in the "very near future." He added there already is an agreement with the city that developers would return the site to its original condition if the project fails.

Steve Poe, another of the developers, said in December that he hoped the construction loan would be in place by January.

The administration wants to combine three bond issues into one to save tens of thousands of dollars on attorney's fees and closing costs, and help the city get a better interest rate because the bond amount is larger.

The bonds would provide$17million for suburban road improvements; $24.5million for capital projects and $47million for Museum Plaza infrastructure.

Jane Driskell, the city's chief financial officer, said that because the council already approved the Museum Plaza bonds, voting against the ordinance would hold up the road and capital projects and technically do nothing to prevent Museum Plaza's bonds from being issued.

She said the administration will not release any of the money until the guarantee is in place.

The committee passed the ordinance 5-4, but not without reservations.

"I want to send a clear message that these were expectations set three months ago," said council member and Republican Party caucus leader Kevin Kramer, 11th District.

Council President Jim King, D-10th, who is not a committee member but attended the meeting, said he supports the Republicans in demanding the guarantee. But King said it would be more appropriate for the Jefferson County attorney's office to review and approve the guarantee.

"We've outlined the parameters" for the guarantee, King said. "The county attorney can determine if they are met. I have no problem with that."


It does not sound like the project is not going to continue, it is just a snag. The vibrations in the foundations of the older buildings on Main Street was not expected but seems reasonable considering this project's size and scope. That being said, they have gone too far not to see this project through.

Iwish them all the luck to find a better soulution to drilling the foundation and get on the project.

mudvayneimn
Mar 7, 2008, 9:18 PM
^They will. :)

I still have high hopes for seeing this go through, there's too much momemtum in Downtown to try and stop now. I guess that's my optimism talking, like it always has with this project.

weathermanstar
Mar 10, 2008, 7:21 PM
Any more Skyscraper in Louisville?? here??

LvilleSlggr73
Mar 10, 2008, 11:01 PM
Has something changed on the Museum Plaza Project? I know that Emporis often has outdated info and stuff, but I'm pretty sure that until recently, they had the height at 214m/703ft but they now have it at 212m/696ft. Of course they also still have it at 61 stories instead of 62, but still, for them to update it, has something changed to lower it by 7ft? I had hoped that maybe demand or something would push it higher to the 750ft range, but now it's not even 700 ft if this is correct. Anyone have any info?

Myke

WonderlandPark
Mar 13, 2008, 1:25 AM
aargh. damn credit market:

Museum Plaza financing on hold
Developers say interest costs rising, but project not in peril

By Marcus Green and Dan Klepal
The Courier-Journal

Museum Plaza, the futuristic skyscraper planned for downtown Louisville, may not dominate the city's skyline as soon as first thought.

Developers have indefinitely postponed efforts to borrow money for the $490 million building because of concerns about higher interest costs on bonds and a construction loan.



The delay doesn't jeopardize the project, developers Steve Poe and Craig Greenberg said in an interview.

But they could not say when the financing will happen, or give an estimated completion date for the project, beyond saying that a previously announced opening in 2011 is still possible.

http://www.courier-journal.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20080312/NEWS01/803121017

Magnus1
Mar 13, 2008, 1:30 AM
F#%&!



i blame the war & the saudis

kazpmk
Mar 13, 2008, 3:15 AM
horrible news.

cactus22minus1
Mar 13, 2008, 2:07 PM
F#%&!, indeed.

Maybe it will just be a one/two year delay. :shrug:

futuresooner
Mar 13, 2008, 2:47 PM
aargh. damn credit market:
The delay doesn't jeopardize the project, developers Steve Poe and Craig Greenberg said in an interview.

/NEWS01/803121017[/url]

Yeah, how many times has this been said across the country.

Dan in Chicago
Mar 14, 2008, 10:03 AM
Has something changed on the Museum Plaza Project? I know that Emporis often has outdated info and stuff, but I'm pretty sure that until recently, they had the height at 214m/703ft but they now have it at 212m/696ft. Of course they also still have it at 61 stories instead of 62, but still, for them to update it, has something changed to lower it by 7ft? I had hoped that maybe demand or something would push it higher to the 750ft range, but now it's not even 700 ft if this is correct. Anyone have any info?

Myke

I don't think the design was changed... Emporis changed the height when it got a copy of detailed elevation drawings a couple of months ago. Usually the height figures reported in the press are incorrect. Maybe the 703 feet was measured from the river level. It's true that Emporis has outdated info sometimes, but this is because it needs a verified source before updating statuses and changing data.

Best wishes to Louisville on getting this built. It's a huge favorite of mine, and would be worth a trip just to see it under construction.

vistaridge
Mar 14, 2008, 7:42 PM
Yeah, how many times has this been said across the country.

you are correct; this inevitable consequence has been known for months. Outside of huge sums being spent on marketing this was never going to happen - at least not like it has been designed for a multitude of reasons.

TIF financing should never be used in vibrant sectors of the CBD it is supposed to be reserved for blighted areas. The CBD should stand on its own heels w/ conventional finance vehicles and hence public financing of this project was beyond the pail. In addition, it is inherently irresponsible for the city leaders to engage in such activities to create the "illusion" of market driven projects when in fact many are subsidized with tax payer dollars and future defaults on those obligations may spell doom for our local economies and tax structure.
Folks development 101 - Just because site work occurs never means vertical financing is secured. Just ask Poe about River Park - and that site disruption - now it is an eye soar for all to enjoy.

Chitown
Mar 15, 2008, 4:47 PM
F#%&!

i blame the war & the saudis
Blame private land rent collection and fractional reserve baking; they're responsible for the credit crunch.

LvilleSlggr73
Mar 16, 2008, 1:50 AM
you are correct; this inevitable consequence has been known for months. Outside of huge sums being spent on marketing this was never going to happen - at least not like it has been designed for a multitude of reasons.

TIF financing should never be used in vibrant sectors of the CBD it is supposed to be reserved for blighted areas. The CBD should stand on its own heels w/ conventional finance vehicles and hence public financing of this project was beyond the pail. In addition, it is inherently irresponsible for the city leaders to engage in such activities to create the "illusion" of market driven projects when in fact many are subsidized with tax payer dollars and future defaults on those obligations may spell doom for our local economies and tax structure.
Folks development 101 - Just because site work occurs never means vertical financing is secured. Just ask Poe about River Park - and that site disruption - now it is an eye soar for all to enjoy.

I don't claim to be a businesss or economic major, but I'd like to know how you claim in your first post on here that the inevitable consequences have been known for months. You also said it's not likely to happen like it's been designed for a multitude of reasons, so what are they? I'm not sure what you're talking about, so if you don't mind, could you please elaborate. I can assume you're just talking about the financing issue. Anyway, the real question I'm curious about it what's going on with River Park Place. I'm from Louisville and tend to get excited when new projects like these two are announced. Is something wrong with River Park Place? I did go to their site a few weeks ago and only a small amount of the units have been sold. Any info would be appreciated.

Myke

LvilleSlggr73
Mar 16, 2008, 9:20 AM
I went to the REX site among others, and while I do know sources can be wrong, I find it hard to believe the developers AND the architect, basically everyone involved had the height wrong. They all said 214m/703ft. They never said however, from where it was measured.

Myke

vistaridge
Mar 16, 2008, 2:42 PM
I don't claim to be a businesss or economic major, but I'd like to know how you claim in your first post on here that the inevitable consequences have been known for months. You also said it's not likely to happen like it's been designed for a multitude of reasons, so what are they? I'm not sure what you're talking about, so if you don't mind, could you please elaborate. I can assume you're just talking about the financing issue. Anyway, the real question I'm curious about it what's going on with River Park Place. I'm from Louisville and tend to get excited when new projects like these two are announced. Is something wrong with River Park Place? I did go to their site a few weeks ago and only a small amount of the units have been sold. Any info would be appreciated.

Myke

Without disclosing how I know - a leap of faith may be required.

I understand it is my first post and can appreciate your reservation.

I knew that River Park was/is having issues for two primary reasons. I knew the financing had gone south due to the change in "preconstruction requirements" from lenders. Hence, the towers were pulled off the table.
Second, Jeff Boat being across the river was a huge deterrant. The lights at night are blinding for those buying at the upper end of the spectrum.
Finally, it is very difficult for socio-economic reasons to propose such a large span in demographics w/in a single building. In the end, the association makeup would never work.
And as a final kicker the "developer" behind it and Museum Plaza I believe has gone bankrupt twice before - so credibility was always in question.

Many times w/ great risk developers will go to great risk, turning dirt if they don't have "skin in the game" to stir interest. The one's in the end that loose are the investors and those like yourself that find value in the concept. Spec. development in areas like this is inherently dangerous and so we see the fallout.

Regarding the Plaza - that is much easier - due to the personal guarantee on the financing, the proposed design would not work in Louisville, the quotes on rents in Biz First for office space negated true market rates, the proposed construction technique for soils/geology at its proposed location, the cost of materials, the players and the use of TIF to fund what should be a conventional project w/ conventional finance vehicles. If you had tracked the "real" issues (financing) regarding the Plaza - its been known to those that have experience in development - a huge let down and inevitable failure was right around the corner.
The biggest question now becomes - what do the city leaders propose to do to restore the site and infrastructure.

These projects are textbook cases of investors/developers "driving the market" and so I knew for months it wasn't going to happen.

Final thought - Abramson and Metro Council - shame on you.

futuresooner
Mar 16, 2008, 3:51 PM
Aww, this ugly THING won't be built probably, well hell, I'm SOOOOOO disappointed, not really. Louisville desrves better, and a better looking tallest. Capital Plaza will probably go up, it is definetly an awsome building. Museum Plaza, I think you, along with Siganture Tower in my hometown are done for.

LvilleSlggr73
Mar 17, 2008, 12:01 AM
While I admit the look of MP is something I had to get used to, I still hope it gets built. Same with River Park Place. I can only hope you're wrong and they come up with something to allow it to proceed, but thanks for responding. I wasn't trying to discount you or anything, just wanted more info.

Myke

bw87a
Mar 17, 2008, 12:17 AM
yeah, i don't know why people are already calling this a no go. that is definitely not true. i don't think anyone knows the true extent of what's going on with the project. nobody has really said anything.

LvilleSlggr73
Mar 17, 2008, 2:16 AM
Hopefully we'll hear some really good news before too long. I really want MP to be built and I think RPP looks great too.

Myke

vistaridge
Mar 17, 2008, 2:54 PM
yeah, i don't know why people are already calling this a no go. that is definitely not true. i don't think anyone knows the true extent of what's going on with the project. nobody has really said anything.

NPR radio saturday afternoon, Craig Greenburg (one of the proposed developers) stated, ...it is a no go indefinitely. What is ambigious about that?

Next project to watch out for is Cordish/Abramson's City Center

chefjeff28
Mar 17, 2008, 3:10 PM
I heard that interview on NPR and I believe I heard Greenburg say "he didn't know when construction would resume", not that it was a "no go indefinitely."
Seems like you may be a little negative vistaridge, especially since you're already calling out another project to fail.

Louisville Lowes
Mar 20, 2008, 3:02 AM
So What, The Last Three Years We Have Talked About This Is Now All A Waste?

bw87a
Mar 20, 2008, 9:51 AM
neh, i think the city center is a much needed project for the area. there is already a slew of residences being built and more entertainment (especially the movie theater) is needed. more popular chain restaurants are needed downtown too.

futuresooner
Mar 20, 2008, 12:45 PM
I wouldn't necessarily say a waste, but if it gets built, it is likely going to be redesigned, I just don't see it being built as is right now, most projects this size in the country are stumbling, unless your Chicago, NYC or Houston, or any city of that size that can support it. Revive Vencor Tower dang it!

vistaridge
Mar 24, 2008, 3:14 PM
I heard that interview on NPR and I believe I heard Greenburg say "he didn't know when construction would resume", not that it was a "no go indefinitely."
Seems like you may be a little negative vistaridge, especially since you're already calling out another project to fail.

chefjeff - Louisville needs corporate white collar jobs and all the goodies follow. These jobs fund the tax base, the entertainment and endowments. These jobs fund economic growth. Entertainment does not supercede the foundation from which it can be built. The Mayor is looking for a revitalization of the core of downtowns central business district as an entertainment meca. It has no longevity and places ownership into an out of state developer without even offering conventional bid opportunities to local investors. I am squarely calling it out because it again creates a TIF district in the heart of a cities core and places that responsiblity in the hands of a developer that can sell the land and improvements and/or default and leave the city bankrupt.
I support good projects, sound credible investors, sound funding vehicles and market driven growth. None of the projects considered under this thread address a "projects" makeup. There is too much discussion about "design" and emotional reaction to that than the function of the sum of the parts.
I'm attempting to get the pretty wrapped package ideology placed in perspective to the priorities and conditions that make a project "good" for the city of Louisville.

One note on Museum plaza - read between the lines. Waiting for market conditions to "change" is a subjective criterium for an objective conclusion and therein lies the problem. I suspect the project will move forward at some point in the future due to the carry cost of the land and expiration of public funds to fund a "Laura Lee Brown" art development. It will however be in perspective of a more realistic undertaking. In the meantime, you, me and everyone else will deal w/ a massive investment in improving downtown's scenic beauty only to suffer the duel debachary anchored on the east and west (Museusm and River Park) of torn up riverfront.

aaron38
Mar 24, 2008, 5:57 PM
I just don't see it being built as is right now, most projects this size in the country are stumbling, unless your Chicago, NYC or Houston, or any city of that size that can support it.

Even Chicago has two 800'+ projects that died this year. The big cities aren't immune either.

Magnus1
Mar 25, 2008, 2:32 AM
Revive Vencor Tower dang it!

what is vencor tower?

Louisville Lowes
Mar 25, 2008, 4:11 AM
Vencor Tower Was A 24 Story Tower That Was Going To Be Built On The Same Place As Museum Plaza But Vencor Went Bust In The Late 90's. You Can Go To Diagrams On The Top Of The Page And Put In Louisville And Check On Buildings That Were Canceled To See Picture.

LvilleSlggr73
Mar 25, 2008, 4:43 AM
I really liked the Vencor Tower design. I wished it had been built and had been taller, of course....but, alas it wasn't ....I think that Emporis used to have add'l info on it that said the rights to the design were purchased by someone else, maybe in Indiana and that a proposal for a 25, 27 or 29 story tower had been rumored for the site but it doesn't have any of that info now. Here's to still hoping that MP will be built. Also, has anyone seen any info on why the height has changed on Emporis? I know someone else said the actual height hadn't been reported on sites, but the developer and the architect both had 703 ft, not 696 ft.

Myke

Vertigo
Mar 25, 2008, 5:12 AM
chefjeff - Louisville needs corporate white collar jobs and all the goodies follow. These jobs fund the tax base, the entertainment and endowments. These jobs fund economic growth. Entertainment does not supercede the foundation from which it can be built.

Of course Louisville would be better off landing more corporate jobs. Good luck getting that to actually happen though. Not only is the state generally regarded in somewhat of a negative light by outsiders but the state's business and political climate makes it less desirable for relocating businesses. Louisville can't compete with fast growing sunbelt cities in this area..at least not now.

What it can do is take a lead role in changing people's perception of what a 'downtown' really is. In most American cities, the idea of living downtown is not a concept that has traditionally been met with mass acceptance. Yes, every city has been home to a few ultraurbanites that have a thirst for the concrete jungle . However, for the most part, most people have viewed a downtown as a place with offices, hotels, tourists, but not necessarily as a place to live.

Even in Chicago, most people wouldn't have even thought of living in 'the loop' just a few short years ago. That has changed though. Millenium Park and the redevelopment of State Street(even though it's taking forever) have brought a wealth of new condo projects into the area.

In a way, Museum Plaza is Louisville's Millenium Park and the Cordish expansion is it's State Street. They aren't just destinations that will fuel a growth in tourist activity. More importantly, they will give local residents a reason to live in these areas year round. This gives the city a way to fight back ( even if just a small way) against the constant threat from neighboring suburban communities.

Louisville may be doing things backwards. Bringing in the entertainment before landing the corporate presence. But I still think it can work. It's all part of creating a well rounded neighborhood that people can actually LIVE in.

vistaridge
Mar 25, 2008, 2:43 PM
Of course Louisville would be better off landing more corporate jobs. Good luck getting that to actually happen though. Not only is the state generally regarded in somewhat of a negative light by outsiders but the state's business and political climate makes it less desirable for relocating businesses. Louisville can't compete with fast growing sunbelt cities in this area..at least not now.

What it can do is take a lead role in changing people's perception of what a 'downtown' really is. In most American cities, the idea of living downtown is not a concept that has traditionally been met with mass acceptance. Yes, every city has been home to a few ultraurbanites that have a thirst for the concrete jungle . However, for the most part, most people have viewed a downtown as a place with offices, hotels, tourists, but not necessarily as a place to live.

Even in Chicago, most people wouldn't have even thought of living in 'the loop' just a few short years ago. That has changed though. Millenium Park and the redevelopment of State Street(even though it's taking forever) have brought a wealth of new condo projects into the area.

In a way, Museum Plaza is Louisville's Millenium Park and the Cordish expansion is it's State Street. They aren't just destinations that will fuel a growth in tourist activity. More importantly, they will give local residents a reason to live in these areas year round. This gives the city a way to fight back ( even if just a small way) against the constant threat from neighboring suburban communities.

Louisville may be doing things backwards. Bringing in the entertainment before landing the corporate presence. But I still think it can work. It's all part of creating a well rounded neighborhood that people can actually LIVE in.

Vertigo:

One must realize living in Chicago or Charlotte for that matter is desirable because it ranks top in the country for it's corporate rank and file. The urban cores are developed because of market conditions and demand not because those city leaders changed any perception. The difference is business drives the economy in those cities.

Corporate jobs do not come to this state/city because of an undesirable business climate but because of a disadvantaged "tax" structure.

It is an irresponsible "role" for government or city politicians to change "perception" of what the facts are. It is what it is. They (local politicians) have failed to provide an evniornment that is business friendly and hence have turned away fortune 1000 companies for decades. Masking this gross failure with the illusion by taking a "lead role" to change perception is inherently not the role of a local government and will therefore be the next logical screw up.

Is it not the role of local government to outsource development to out of state companies with no local interest in Louisville, without bidding, with the aid of local tax dollars funding and hedging that there will be no default for decades to come. Is that what you want the Mayor to do to change the perception? Meanwhile these tax dollars (TIF) will not be reserved for the blighted areas of town for which they were created and the school zones within downtown will be underfunded.

I ask you to reconsider, we don't need the city to change the perception. We need the city to hold industry accountable and provide for a tax enviornment that launches an infusion of private sector investment dollars coupled with a policy that promotes development in core downtown areas without the crutch of TIF public financing sporting areanas, millionaire museums or U of L proposals.

As I've said, I'm in the minority but I am a conventional pragmatist and I know what will fly and what won't -

another prediction to get you thinking -
Iron Quarter will not come to fruition

bw87a
Mar 25, 2008, 7:24 PM
i guess this is some better news that what we were looking at last week.

http://www.courier-journal.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20080325/NEWS01/80325038

LvilleSlggr73
Mar 25, 2008, 9:00 PM
:hell: My God is there ANY project in Louisville that you think might have a snowball's chance in hell of actually happening? Being a pragmatist is fine and all, but do you really have to put such a damper on everyone's hopes for the city's development and progress? I mean really, you've now pretty much shot down or condemned every major development announced for Louisville. What gives? As far as the TIF, I thought that they were using it for these projects so the could get off the ground and start generating income and revenue in the area to help the REST of the city too. You are perfectly entitled to your opinion, but not a single post of yours that I can see has anything good to say about what's going on in my hometown and I sincerely hope you are dead wrong on each and every one of your predictions of failure. Can you just find something to be positive about please? You're bringing down the rest of the board, or at least me...lol.

Myke

cactus22minus1
Mar 26, 2008, 1:51 AM
You guys don't seem to be really listening(or understanding) to what vistaridge is saying. Louisville can sustain and does deserve projects of this scale, but they have to enable the conditions for it to exist first. Apparently, they're going about this the wrong way despite how brilliant the development itself would be.

I didn't read where vistaridge bashed any hopes for Louisville. He's bringing some very intelligent insight about the apparent failure of this project. The downer comes from the poor planning and the poor economic conditions.. not the messenger. :shrug:

LvilleSlggr73
Mar 26, 2008, 6:47 AM
NPR radio saturday afternoon, Craig Greenburg (one of the proposed developers) stated, ...it is a no go indefinitely. What is ambigious about that?

Next project to watch out for is Cordish/Abramson's City Center

you are correct; this inevitable consequence has been known for months. Outside of huge sums being spent on marketing this was never going to happen - at least not like it has been designed for a multitude of reasons.

TIF financing should never be used in vibrant sectors of the CBD it is supposed to be reserved for blighted areas. The CBD should stand on its own heels w/ conventional finance vehicles and hence public financing of this project was beyond the pail. In addition, it is inherently irresponsible for the city leaders to engage in such activities to create the "illusion" of market driven projects when in fact many are subsidized with tax payer dollars and future defaults on those obligations may spell doom for our local economies and tax structure.
Folks development 101 - Just because site work occurs never means vertical financing is secured. Just ask Poe about River Park - and that site disruption - now it is an eye soar for all to enjoy.

chefjeff - Louisville needs corporate white collar jobs and all the goodies follow. These jobs fund the tax base, the entertainment and endowments. These jobs fund economic growth. Entertainment does not supercede the foundation from which it can be built. The Mayor is looking for a revitalization of the core of downtowns central business district as an entertainment meca. It has no longevity and places ownership into an out of state developer without even offering conventional bid opportunities to local investors. I am squarely calling it out because it again creates a TIF district in the heart of a cities core and places that responsiblity in the hands of a developer that can sell the land and improvements and/or default and leave the city bankrupt.
I support good projects, sound credible investors, sound funding vehicles and market driven growth. None of the projects considered under this thread address a "projects" makeup. There is too much discussion about "design" and emotional reaction to that than the function of the sum of the parts.
I'm attempting to get the pretty wrapped package ideology placed in perspective to the priorities and conditions that make a project "good" for the city of Louisville.

One note on Museum plaza - read between the lines. Waiting for market conditions to "change" is a subjective criterium for an objective conclusion and therein lies the problem. I suspect the project will move forward at some point in the future due to the carry cost of the land and expiration of public funds to fund a "Laura Lee Brown" art development. It will however be in perspective of a more realistic undertaking. In the meantime, you, me and everyone else will deal w/ a massive investment in improving downtown's scenic beauty only to suffer the duel debachary anchored on the east and west (Museusm and River Park) of torn up riverfront.

Vertigo:

One must realize living in Chicago or Charlotte for that matter is desirable because it ranks top in the country for it's corporate rank and file. The urban cores are developed because of market conditions and demand not because those city leaders changed any perception. The difference is business drives the economy in those cities.

Corporate jobs do not come to this state/city because of an undesirable business climate but because of a disadvantaged "tax" structure.

It is an irresponsible "role" for government or city politicians to change "perception" of what the facts are. It is what it is. They (local politicians) have failed to provide an evniornment that is business friendly and hence have turned away fortune 1000 companies for decades. Masking this gross failure with the illusion by taking a "lead role" to change perception is inherently not the role of a local government and will therefore be the next logical screw up.

Is it not the role of local government to outsource development to out of state companies with no local interest in Louisville, without bidding, with the aid of local tax dollars funding and hedging that there will be no default for decades to come. Is that what you want the Mayor to do to change the perception? Meanwhile these tax dollars (TIF) will not be reserved for the blighted areas of town for which they were created and the school zones within downtown will be underfunded.

I ask you to reconsider, we don't need the city to change the perception. We need the city to hold industry accountable and provide for a tax enviornment that launches an infusion of private sector investment dollars coupled with a policy that promotes development in core downtown areas without the crutch of TIF public financing sporting areanas, millionaire museums or U of L proposals.

As I've said, I'm in the minority but I am a conventional pragmatist and I know what will fly and what won't -

another prediction to get you thinking -
Iron Quarter will not come to fruition


How's that for listing the negativity of 4, count em, 4 Louisville projects. From River Park Place to Iron Quarter, from Museum Plaza to Center City and was there one other too in the Jefferson Development or was that somewhere else? Not sure now, but he has brought some info to the table, but at the same time has posted nothing but negativity toward the projects and complaining about the use of TIF for dt instead of west end or something. He's the messenger and he's bringing a message of hopelessness that these projects will be built in my opinion. He's entitled to his opinion, but until there's definite info one way or the other his info is just uninformed speculation unless he's on the inside of each and everyone of these projects and has contact with the developers and knows what they're thinking and planning, which is entirely possible, I guess. :rolleyes:

Myke

bw87a
Mar 26, 2008, 7:19 AM
i agree. i think i, personally, would be much happier if vistaridge watched what he posted. nobody likes when somebody comes into a thread on their city and gives predictions that mega projects are going to fail. i don't like it. whether it happens is one thing. but nobody wants hopeless speculation as stated before.

LvilleSlggr73
Mar 26, 2008, 7:50 AM
Thank you! You said it very nicely and to the point. I'm assuming from the statements that've been made vistaridge is in Louisville or else I'm not sure how he would be in the know on these issues and ask us to take a leap of faith and just believe and trust he knows what he's talking about. Just cut out all the negativity, please. Start a new thread if you'd like to and maybe title it: Everything in Louisville Is Gonna Fail because of.... and I'll steer clear of it. Thanks!!!

Myke;)

cityguy
Mar 26, 2008, 11:21 AM
Maybe he's not being negative,he's being practical.The odds of this building going ahead in the next few years are looking slim.

futuresooner
Mar 26, 2008, 5:48 PM
Ok he clearly didn't say that, or he would've included Capital Plaza in this. He's being a realist, and so am I. It is a very bold project for this time, had all this been done 2 years earlier, this thing would be well under vertical construction. It is going to the backburner for now due to the economic downturn, it may be revived as well. Don't think that your city is the only one, Nashville, Las Vegas, Atlanta, Charlotte, and even Chicago, and countless others, are seeing some projects on hold or scrapped period. I for one, believe this will not happen, and I hope not, for using TIF, that's not the correct route to go. BTW, Capital Plaza is likely I'm sure, the office market is looking good for Louisville. Now don't do this:whip:

bw87a
Mar 26, 2008, 6:18 PM
Maybe he's not being negative,he's being practical.The odds of this building going ahead in the next few years are looking slim.
it's one thing to be practical about museum plaza on its on thread, but don't come into the museum plaza thread and 'be practical' (or whatever you want to call it) about iron quarter, center city, park place. leave that out. as i said, nobody wants people coming in and bashing all their city projects. it's just not cool.

rpb502
Mar 26, 2008, 7:23 PM
i guess this is some better news that what we were looking at last week.

http://www.courier-journal.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20080325/NEWS01/80325038

Great news indeed.

LvilleSlggr73
Mar 26, 2008, 8:20 PM
Capital Plaza does seem to be pretty much a go at this point, unofficially, of course. Most city leaders love the idea from what I've read and the developer has stated that even if they don't land Humana as a tenant, there's still a 50% chance it'll be built. I think this one's a go, and just because he didn't list this one doesn't mean he wasn't being negative. You can spin it all you like, but the bottom line is he came in here and from his first post on this site started shooting down almost any hope that these projects would be built. I guess we'll all just have to wait and see what happens. I think that given the success of 4th Street Live, the expansion of Center City is very likely as well, Iron Quarter would go very nicely with the new arena, Slugger Field and the other developments in the area and are needed to improve dt's image. Museum Plaza is a bold and innovative proposal and I think the combination of uses and purposes is what makes it so viable. That's my opinion only but really, this is a Louisville forum and such blatant negativity is just not wanted here.

Myke

cactus22minus1
Mar 26, 2008, 8:25 PM
Ok, well would the few of you who would rather dream about a different scenario just continue to stick your fingers in your ears so the rest of us can enjoy the information coming from someone(vista) who actually seems to understand what's going on here?

If we're allowed to blindly speculate about the best possible scenario, I'd think we should be allowed to talk about the reality. Even if it's 'negative'. We already got the negative news- that this project is on hold. It's only natural that the fallout isn't going to be pretty to listen to.

For the record, I would love to see this building go up as much as anyone. And I'm still crossing my fingers hard that it pulls through in the most responsible way for the city.

LvilleSlggr73
Mar 26, 2008, 8:44 PM
I'm not "dreaming" of a different scenario. I'm saying that NONE of these projects are cancelled nor are any of the developers saying it's looking like it's less likely to happen or anyting like that. Sure MP's on hold because of vibrations, etc, but there is an article that's already been quoted that says agreements have been reached to get back to work on it. Does that mean it's absolutely going to happen? No it doesn't, but as much money as has been put into it, I'm sure the developers will put forth every effort to get their "Laura Lee Brown" museum built. His entire presentation, while laden with intelligent sounding words and sentences still comes across as negative and purposefully so. I don't think any of us are just blindly speculating on these projects hoping for the best. I am hoping for the best, but I do also understand that it's not just a case of "oh, I want to build a $490 million skyscraper, so I'm gonna do it" and it just happens. I'm all for intelligent discussion, but the absolute negativity in his posts is not needed here. You can discuss your concerns, but that's not what he's doing as much as making "blind" speculations that none of these are gonna happen. So why don't you then join him in his blindly speculative discussion about the negativity on these projects and we'll continue to try to be positive about it. MMMkay?

Myke :tup:

futuresooner
Mar 27, 2008, 2:51 AM
Oh stop, good freckin lord. We have negative people and very positive people. His opinion is his, he's entitled to it, if no one likes it, oh well, report it then, you'll jsut get laughed at. ANYWAYS!, the biggest reason I don't want this built is because AEGON is such a powerful, graceful building, this one is powerful, for the wrong reasons. I just don't agree at all with using TIF funds to assist this project, or city bonds, it is very bad for the government to do that. If it does happen, and suddenly, they pull up and leave a half finished tower, then what, a city with quite a chunk of cash gone. Not to mention, what to do with a half-built building. I don't see any bank really giving this one the green light, until they really present some good, hard evidence of it making it, until then, good luck. Just make Capital Plaza taller. And yes, it may bug people that his 1st post was so-called "negative", get over it like I said. I actually support both sides. Just don't let this get outta hand.

LvilleSlggr73
Mar 27, 2008, 4:13 AM
Actually, the city would'nt be left empty handed if it folded because the agreement that was signed states that they have a legal obligation to restore the site to prev state and refund all monies to the city that were provided for the project.

Myke

bw87a
Mar 27, 2008, 6:51 PM
cactus, you keep talking about the 'reality' of what he's saying. the 'reality' is that none of the projects he has mentioned have officially failed yet. you can't say he's being realistic by shooting down all of louisville's projects. that doesn't make sense. and i don't understand how the building is powerful for the wrong reasons. but whatever. this thread is getting stupid now.

LvilleSlggr73
Mar 27, 2008, 10:31 PM
It would be silly to let those who wish to believe that embracing such negativity is realistic stop us from visiting and enjoying this thread. I love Louisville as it is my hometown and I only want it to succeed. I'm not oblivious to reality or the fact that not every project will succeed, but I firmly believe at this time that most if not all of these projects have a more than reasonable chance of being built. Center City, for example even had an expansion from the original $250 million proposal and as successful as Cordish is with these type developments, I doubt seriously they are just making plans with their heads in the ground blindly going about their business. As far as it being ridiculous to allow an outside company to develop 4th Street Live and the expansion, perhaps it was that no local company had the experience that Cordish does in making such a project a reality. How can you say that Cordish has no local interest in Louisville? They have a project there worth hundreds of millions of dollars and want to invest nearly half a BILLION more in downtown Louisville. Of course they have a vested interest in downtown Louisville continuing to flourish and grow. Just because they aren't based out of Louisville or Lexington or some other Kentucky town doesn't mean they shouldn't have gotten the job. I'd much rather them be based out of Louisville, but they aren't. I really hope that each and every one of Louisville's major projects goes thru and is a success. :notacrook:

Myke

Jeff_in_Dayton
Mar 27, 2008, 10:59 PM
Looks like MP is "on hiatus". Heh, such high hopes Interesting that the agreement is to restore the site back to as-is. Fortunatly no foundations have been poured, so its just backfill and regrading.

I do sort of miss that old Kingfish, it was fun high camp, which the new one in Jeff doesnt have (though it does have a fab view of downtown).

I dont see what the beef is with TIF, as this mechanism is used elsewhere without incident for redevelopment. Sounds to me more of an ideological opposition than a pragmatic.

I disagree about the downtown strategy being entertainment based. From what I can tell from the various Dtwn websites it's more housing-based, with entertainment being incidental.

LvilleSlggr73
Mar 27, 2008, 11:07 PM
Nice post Jeff thanks for being positive about Louisville, LOL. :P I think we've got a great shot at most of these being done, especially Capital Plaza. I certainly do agree with you also about the TIF as well. It's being used to help these projects that have PUBLIC aspects of them so they will be generating additional income for the city that can be used in those blighted areas if they choose to.

Myke

vistaridge
Mar 28, 2008, 3:45 PM
Folks - I love Louisville. Born, breed and raised. I've not posted hopelessness; I'm stunned I've been asked to leave, quit posting or just say something positive or say nothing at all. What is this board an instrument to build one's knowledge or a feel-good vacuum?

Ironic that a "restoration agreement" showed up in the Courier Journal the other day when I was the only one asking - what is going to come of these sites on the riverfront now that they are postponed, purged, delayed or no go's. This practice is inherently not good. Projects should break ground when the financing commitment has been executed. Not, when the investors say go in order to promote buzz and excitement.

I thought my posts would in part be welcomed with, "share more." In the end, we all want to know, what the conclusion of a proposal is" at least I require it or is that hopeless?

My thoughts weren't meant to be disparaging but offer insight beyond what had been debated to date on this thread. I believe in an open market economy and proposals that reflect and support a strong investment infrastructure, create jobs and create tax revenue without a crutch from local government on prime Louisville real estate. Don't you believe what the market bears should be the driving force? Or do you believe that if you have an magnificent idea regardless of what the market can bear that local government should subsidize that effort without cause? Where is the accountability?

There are many projects that I support - but I'll save that too for elsewhere. My desire to register/post came from all the posts that stated, "I hope this happens" - you folks were being led down the primrose path of hope and I merely stepped in and said foul and I don't care for the public in general being mislead about projects that require further scrutiny. If I bring no value to your "discussion board" then far be it for me to be a party pooh-per.

I guess for those old enough to recall, call me "deep-throat" from the Water Gate days; was just trying to lend some perspective.


For what it is worth - I'll leave you w/ this and put closure on my concerns:
http://www.luc.edu/curl/prag/final_summer02.pdf

Thanks for the warm Louisville welcome,

The hopeless messenger

vistaridge
Mar 28, 2008, 4:07 PM
It would be silly to let those who wish to believe that embracing such negativity is realistic stop us from visiting and enjoying this thread. I love Louisville as it is my hometown and I only want it to succeed. I'm not oblivious to reality or the fact that not every project will succeed, but I firmly believe at this time that most if not all of these projects have a more than reasonable chance of being built. Center City, for example even had an expansion from the original $250 million proposal and as successful as Cordish is with these type developments, I doubt seriously they are just making plans with their heads in the ground blindly going about their business. As far as it being ridiculous to allow an outside company to develop 4th Street Live and the expansion, perhaps it was that no local company had the experience that Cordish does in making such a project a reality. How can you say that Cordish has no local interest in Louisville? They have a project there worth hundreds of millions of dollars and want to invest nearly half a BILLION more in downtown Louisville. Of course they have a vested interest in downtown Louisville continuing to flourish and grow. Just because they aren't based out of Louisville or Lexington or some other Kentucky town doesn't mean they shouldn't have gotten the job. I'd much rather them be based out of Louisville, but they aren't. I really hope that each and every one of Louisville's major projects goes thru and is a success. :notacrook:

Myke

What is the deal with all this "perhaps" this and "perhaps" that speculation. Fact: The city did not offer open bidding of this "tax-payer" property to any local or other regional developer for IDEAS or PROPOSALS. The city did not offer the public any opportunity for Involvement in the Mayors Vision for our city. The city unilaterially negotiated with Cordish - and yes while having a business interest in Louisville has no tie to Louisville than it does to any of the other proposals on the boards for other cities and I just "hope" that Cordish doesn't sell to a REIT or default.
But then again "perhaps" your right and all will be just ok....

LvilleSlggr73
Mar 28, 2008, 10:24 PM
Noone is saying Vistaridge that you need to leave, but we did ask that you try not to be so negative. You did, in fact shoot down at least 4 major projects in downtown and I'm pretty sure you'd come up against the same backlash in any other thread. Try going to the Nashville thread and bashing all their projects and the same will probably happen. Again, I'm all for varying ideas and opinions, but what you were doing was speculating on the downfall and 0% chance of these projects happening. I know everything is not rainbows and kittens but damn, can't you find something good to say about what's going on? We're not trying to give you a script and turn you into a yes sir no sir minion but some restraint in your posts would be welcome. It's just that EVERY one of your posts was in a negative tone and one would think you could find something good to say. You are more than welcome to stay and post, far be it from me, who is a nobody on here to say otherwise, it's just that we'd appreciate it if you could at least put something positive too if you're gonna put so much negative to maybe provide some balance.


Oh, and by the way, the FACT is that the city doesn't have to make an open bid to develop that land. Cordish is a very respected company and I'm sure they were the best choice for the role especially if it was between them and only companies in the state of Kentucky. Just look at their record and I can't imagine anyone would disagree that they were a perfect choice for the development of a defunct downtown mall. So, perhaps you're wrong on everything you're saying and everything will be fine!!! ;)

Myke

vistaridge
Mar 29, 2008, 12:01 AM
Noone is saying Vistaridge that you need to leave, but we did ask that you try not to be so negative. You did, in fact shoot down at least 4 major projects in downtown and I'm pretty sure you'd come up against the same backlash in any other thread. Try going to the Nashville thread and bashing all their projects and the same will probably happen. Again, I'm all for varying ideas and opinions, but what you were doing was speculating on the downfall and 0% chance of these projects happening. I know everything is not rainbows and kittens but damn, can't you find something good to say about what's going on? We're not trying to give you a script and turn you into a yes sir no sir minion but some restraint in your posts would be welcome. It's just that EVERY one of your posts was in a negative tone and one would think you could find something good to say. You are more than welcome to stay and post, far be it from me, who is a nobody on here to say otherwise, it's just that we'd appreciate it if you could at least put something positive too if you're gonna put so much negative to maybe provide some balance.


Oh, and by the way, the FACT is that the city doesn't have to make an open bid to develop that land. Cordish is a very respected company and I'm sure they were the best choice for the role especially if it was between them and only companies in the state of Kentucky. Just look at their record and I can't imagine anyone would disagree that they were a perfect choice for the development of a defunct downtown mall. So, perhaps you're wrong on everything you're saying and everything will be fine!!! ;)

Myke


Look, you asked me to elaborate, you asked me to explain, And now I'm defending "negativity and bashing." I'm going to let it all hang out for you all to draw your own conclusions. Either the subject matter is over your head or you fail to make the connections. I've reviewed my posts and do not find any negative comments outside of requiring a higher accountability to the bottom line. I appreciate those on the board of sage wisdom and offer others more to chew on:

Others mentioned Capital Plaza - will it happen - well time will tell but I'm not holding my breath. Why? The developer was positioning as many others were to have a string to a piece of land to render and propose for Humana. Hence the reason so many projects went to the papers but will most likely not be built. Is there room for an office building - no doubt. While rates have failed to climb in the last 5 years vacancies have dropped. However, the cost of constuction materials have increased at least by 50% so you have an inverted market. You can not construct new w/out a huge anchor willing to pay new constuction prices. Thats tough to hear but it is reality.

The word on Iron Quarter is it isn't even controlled by Blue anymore if it ever was - a new project may show up in the weeks or months to come by someone else. But this is still evolving so - we'll see.

Never have we seen so many bold proposals in our fair city but they were just that proposals; worth the ink and color for which the rendering cost and the newspapers print. They come, they go but in the end it erodes the good projects out there that aren't sexy and often fly under the radar that are good for the city.
So will Capital Plaza go?... well - being that this is a company that has invested dearly into promoting and marketing several spec office projects yet to be financed and built throughout the county w/out having ever dealt in this type or scale of a project- my betting money would be behind some other projects on the table downtown that have gotten little press.

http://louisville.bizjournals.com/louisville/stories/1998/12/14/story3.html
http://www.bizjournals.com/louisville/stories/2002/10/21/story6.html

Regarding Cordish selection wouldn't have anything to do w/ the fact that this may be a bail out for 4th street live. The Mayor doesn't want that to go upside down - where will his theatrics come from next?

http://www.baltimoresun.com/business/bal-bz.cordish27mar27,0,6482361.story
http://primebuzz.kcstar.com/?q=node/10020
http://www.tonyskansascity.com/2008/02/understanding-impending-failure-of.html
http://www.tonyskansascity.com/2008/02/cordish-wants-to-curtail-other-kc.html

I'm a local resident, businessman, property owner and tax payer. I pay into our local system - this is my hometown and I "LIVE" here - so please consider toning down the redirect and let's qualify projects before we endorse their viability and effects on us all.

cityguy
Mar 29, 2008, 11:08 AM
I agree with your statement,everyone who comes to this site loves skyscrapers,so there is an exceitment that comes over you when one is proposed in your town.But once things cool down ,cooler heads can sit back and look at the real nuts and bolts of a project,such as city politics,economy and market demand and see if a building is viable.I don't think vistaridge is being negative,I just think he understand the market a little better.

LvilleSlggr73
Mar 29, 2008, 11:41 PM
vistaridge "Look, you asked me to elaborate, you asked me to explain, And now I'm defending "negativity and bashing." I'm going to let it all hang out for you all to draw your own conclusions. Either the subject matter is over your head or you fail to make the connections. I've reviewed my posts and do not find any negative comments outside of requiring a higher accountability to the bottom line. I appreciate those on the board of sage wisdom and offer others more to chew on:"

You are coming to this board and you are bringing negative comements and shooting down every major project in Louisville, but on top of that you are now making statements of "either the subject matter is over your head or you fail to make the connections." Which now comes across as a condesending ass. It is not that the subject matter is over our heads, it is that we have a differenting opinion on what would be best for the City of Louisville, and the way it should be accomplished. Just because I have a differenting opinion to yours does not make it wrong, and you can not back up the claims that all these projects will be scrapped, and nor can I say that they will all be completed as envisioned. But I am not the one on here who came in on my first post and stated these projects were not going to be completed. I take great offense to being talked down to, are people of sage wisdom only people who share your beliefs and thoughts on what is right? If so I dont want to be a part of that group.

futuresooner
Mar 30, 2008, 10:59 AM
:sly: :slob: :shrug: :rolleyes: :order:

In that order as I read

bw87a
Mar 30, 2008, 7:24 PM
^^^ hahahaha

vistaridge
Mar 31, 2008, 4:44 PM
Myke/bw87a - I linked information to provide additional "information" for all to consider. Lots of good reading - any comment to the substance? Can we debate/discuss the facts and merits of the project outside of the subjective design? I know I have rattled cages. Do you have skin in the game? Do you pay Ky state taxes? Do you pay local taxes? Do you live in Louisville? Do you own property in Louisville? Do you know the players involved and their motives? Do you invest in downtown Louisville? You've got an opinion great! However, I can answer yes to all - so that qualifies me to place my "negative" perceived opinion of the project, squarely at your feet - now open up your ears and minds and deal with it or offer a knowledable counter position to why specifically MP is good as financially proposed and why Cordish is best to take over the managment of Louisville's core district. Other than, "I just think so." Now is your time to shine!



Futuresooner - sorry I know you didn't want to hear my thoughts on Capital Plaza - I agree the design proposed was attractive.

Tell me you guys want to discuss this otherwise - I'll consider my work here done....

bw87a
Mar 31, 2008, 6:28 PM
don't direct anything to me, vistaridge. i didn't say anything other than i think your comments were negative. backed by evidence or not, i still think you came across in a negative way. but it's over now. enough has been said. maybe you should write a positive post to satisfy slugger. i'm satisfied. and for the record, i do live in louisville and pay louisville taxes fyi.

futuresooner
Mar 31, 2008, 6:37 PM
Ok, lets all just stop this crap, good Lord. LvilleSlggr73, it may seem negative, but I think you've also gotten your point across as well. We all either stop this stupid he said this that and motehr and them crap or I'll have to get a mod on this. As stupid as it sounds, it'd be the only way. Now, ANYWAYS, no recent news on Museum Plaza, so I take it they are really trying hard behind the scenes, and they should, or else they join the many failed projects across the country.

LvilleSlggr73
Mar 31, 2008, 10:13 PM
You know, I just typed a very long response to everything that has been said since my last post, but I erased it and decided it and you, vistaridge are just not worth my time. Post all you want about negative thoughts on any and all Louisville projects and that's fine by me. I will do my best to ignore them. I don't live in Louisville and haven't since I was a child and admittedly my investment in Louisville is an emotional one, not a financial one. I only want what is best for Louisville and thought these projects seemed like a good idea. I'm not sure why you don't think Cordish is a good option and if you think so much that a Louisville or Kentucky firm was best to handle it, why don't you tell us which one then. Anyway, I don't care if you do or don't, I didn't want this all to come to where it is now, but it is. I don't know any of you personally and I never intended anything to be taken that way. My apologies if anyone took offense, even you vistaridge, I guess...;) Again, it was only my wanting the best for Louisville and feeling that your posts offered nothing more than open wanton negativity and trolling, but I guess I'm wrong.

Futuresooner, aren't you the one a few posts back that said for us to go ahead and get a Mod and we'd be laughed at? Funny you are now suggesting to do the same thing you said we would be laughed at for doing. I'm sure in all the days and weeks we've been posting on this at least one Mod has looked in here, so I doubt that much would happen there unless i'm completely wrong. No offense intended, btw.

Myke

Jeff_in_Dayton
Mar 31, 2008, 10:51 PM
I believe in an open market economy and proposals that reflect and support a strong investment infrastructure, create jobs and create tax revenue without a crutch from local government

If this is a reference to the TIF mechanism, yes i do think they are usefull for redevelopment purposes, as the concept is to reduce development and mitigation costs. That's been their use in Chicago, and they did assist in regeneration of abandoned industrial sites and so forth. In Louisville there is that downtown housing fund, which is another way to provide $$$ for adaptive reuse.

There are many projects that I support - but I'll save that too for elsewhere.

I dont know why youd want to do that, as if you are an informed source it'd be worthwhile to know what is viable, in yr opinion.

LvilleSlggr73
Mar 31, 2008, 11:14 PM
Jeff-In-Dayton is cool! :cool:

Myke

vistaridge
Apr 1, 2008, 4:35 PM
Jeff:


TIF is a process that allows a municipality to use increased property taxes and even eminent domain, while providing incentives for private developers, all in the name of bolstering economically depressed areas. Ideally, the procedure turns out economic development, job creation and higher property values—in addition to the infrastructure needs that would have been provided by property tax alone— but no money is pulled directly from the city budget. It is a valuable tool in regenerating blighted areas, but there is a downside.

"Chicago neighborhood organizations and tax payers alike have expressed concern about the possible negative effects of TIF," write Patricia Nolan, Director of Community Planning and Helene Berlin, Research Director Neighborhood Capital Budget Group (NCBG)—a coalition of Chicago-based communities working to improve the city through targeted investment—as part of a 2002 report from the Pragmatics journal (a publication dedicated to local policy research) exploring the TIF program. "Community residents are concerned that TIF fuels gentrification and accompanying displacement of long-time residents, excessive and abusive use of eminent domain powers, the rapid transformation of a community's historic character, and skyrocketing rents and property taxes that eventually push long-time residents out of a neighborhood. Also, since imposing TIF on large areas of a city means that significantly less of the property tax base is available to local government agencies to help pay for day-to-day services, we are all paying more in property taxes."

Read page 5
http://www.luc.edu/curl/prag/final_summer02.pdf


In the end for those that don't study this complicated process - the current city leaders of Louisville are hedging Louisville's core downtown real estate on "if" Cordish/MP performs and if they don't then their is going to be a disaster to downtown Louisville of unparalleled proportion. That is fundamentally dangerous and irresponsible because of the scale of the TIF super-districts, out of state ownership Louisville has now created unilaterally w/out public input.

I appreciate your at least discussing these crucial points to Louisville's wellbeing.

vistaridge
Apr 1, 2008, 5:45 PM
oh and I like this project:

it is a 2 component so doesn't saturate the market, local investor/developer, conventional approach, anchors east.
http://www.jeffersondevelopmentgroup.com/files/news/20071208%20-%20Twin%20towers%20planned%20-%20Courier%20Journal.pdf

bw87a
Apr 1, 2008, 7:27 PM
i like that project too, visatridge, and have been eagerly awaiting more news on this project for some time now. i like those twin towers as well as the zirmed towers on market street. lots of good infill projects for the city. we need more infill!

LvilleSlggr73
Apr 1, 2008, 8:55 PM
oh and I like this project:

it is a 2 component so doesn't saturate the market, local investor/developer, conventional approach, anchors east.
http://www.jeffersondevelopmentgroup.com/files/news/20071208%20-%20Twin%20towers%20planned%20-%20Courier%20Journal.pdf

Well will wonders never cease and just how in the hell did those pigs actually become airborne, I'll never know. But I do know that I agree with you, Vistaridge and BWA. Someone else said it looked too 80's or something and was aweful, but I disagree and think it's pretty cool, especially the parking garage element. There are too many parking lots dotting DT Louisville and they are an eyesore and I think this is a much better use of the land.

Myke

vistaridge
Apr 2, 2008, 12:22 AM
There are too many parking lots dotting DT Louisville and they are an eyesore
Myke

now don't start with the negative waves....lots offer surface vehicular storage in the interim while bringing hope one day that a once naked plod of ground may one day adorn a vertical apendage stretching to the heavens.

oink oink!

photoLith
Apr 2, 2008, 2:01 AM
How this building ever got accepted is beyond me, especially in a conservative state like KY, looks like something that should be in China, but I like it, its just so strange. How were NIMBY's not all over this project?

LvilleSlggr73
Apr 2, 2008, 2:23 AM
now don't start with the negative waves....lots offer surface vehicular storage in the interim while bringing hope one day that a once naked plod of ground may one day adorn a vertical apendage stretching to the heavens.

oink oink! :haha: :jester: :haha::jester: :haha:

That's funny....I like that. Maybe one day all flat lots will have the privilege of having multi-story parking structures sitting squarely on top of them!!! I know that's what I hope for when I think about them.

Myke

bw87a
Apr 5, 2008, 8:44 PM
How this building ever got accepted is beyond me, especially in a conservative state like KY, looks like something that should be in China, but I like it, its just so strange. How were NIMBY's not all over this project?

Actually, Louisville is trying to become less conservative and more progressive and open to ideas as its counterparts surge ahead. And, I think it's paying off.

chicagopride
Apr 9, 2008, 6:31 PM
this project looks incredible. as a chicago native currently based in nyc, its only recently that i've spent time looking at non-chicago threads. this would definitely be a win for louisville.