[Oliver Klozov]

Can always net in the road deck no?

Ever seen the overpass over the TCH at Morley?

That wasn't for flying litter but ........... ;)

[Mazrim]

My concern is not so much the construction, as it is the actual traffic using the bridge. Have you ever seen the disgusting amount of plastic wrap and trash that flies off of inproperly tarped truck loads? I swear a good third of litter in this city, and almost 100% of the litter on highways is from trucks.

Huh, I don't remember garbage raining from the sky when I was in Bowness Park.

[Ferreth]

What I'm wondering is there any land negotiation that could be done that wouldn't come down to a vote? Negotiating for a thin strip along 37th St/Glenmore with the idea that the Province could build some extra access into the reserve that could be developed, hell kick in some seed money that would've had to be spent buying up homes.

If it came down to HAVING to vote, I'd promise each Indian $10K $CA$H for land compensation, at 20 Mil still a bargain (we could go higher, IANAP). Nothing like appealing directly to the pocket book to influence the vote :evil:

Wait, that sounds like it's been done before...

[Wentworth]

Let them own the road. They can operate it as a for-profit electronic toll road. The feds can provide loan financing. No land changes hands, they retain sovereignty. Get the opinion leaders in the reserve community involved in the planning so that they don't have the same disconnect as last time between band members and band leadership. The route will probably have to be modified somewhat from the previous proposal to save face.

[bakersdozen]

What's the estimated cost difference between doing a deal with the nation and building a crazy bridge over the wetlands? I wonder if it's a break even when comparing the choices... if so I say renegotiate.

[UofC.engineer]

Well the land belongs to them. How would you feel about a large freeway running through your land? They have every right to want to get the best deal. Has the whole process been perfect? Absolutely not, but I hope we are moving beyond the past issues. Maybe the timing is better now that the area has a more clear direction going forward?

Maybe the Tsuu Tina had plans for that land tat we dont know about.......

If it was your land the government would buy it off you for a price that is...hmmmm...above market value and probably a good deal on the whole, even if you didn't want to sell it. Do you know why??? because you are not native. special rights for special people. I understand what happened to natives in the late 19th century was wrong, and I know this is part of a bigger issue and I know this is a Stoney Trail Forum, but this system is ridiculous. It is like apartheid, special rights for a people solely based on their race and where they live.

Com'on even you Ottawa, pink hearted, I love Pierre Trudeau liberals gotta admitt this is not right.

And before all of you bust out your torches and pitch forks on me ask yourself a question.

Was it me that colonized a continent?
Should I suffer for the sins of my forefathers?

I am not an evil man, I would like to see the quality of life improve for everyone living on a reserve, all I am saying is this system is not working.

You cannot chage the past but can change the future.

Maybe I don't understand the guilt you guys feel.I moved here from Argentina, I don't owe these people a thing...

[UofC.engineer]

Look on Google earth and see how many houses you can find on the NE section of the reserve...

How many people would actually be affected?

1000 people holding back 1 million...unbeliveable.

[fusili]

What just happened to this forum?

PS- UofC Engineer: Debes entender que los indigenos de todo de America (norte y sur), incluyido los de Argentina, tiene los mismos derechos como todo la gente. La tierra en el sur oeste de Calgary es su propriedad y tiene el derecho hacer lo que quieren con lo. No podemos tomar su tierra, es illegal.

[UofC.engineer]

What just happened to this forum?

PS- UofC Engineer: Debes entender que los indigenos de todo de America (norte y sur), incluyido los de Argentina, tiene los mismos derechos como todo la gente. La tierra en el sur oeste de Calgary es su propriedad y tiene el derecho hacer lo que quieren con lo. No podemos tomar su tierra, es illegal.

La ciudad puede expropriar mi casa. La West LRT proyecto expropriado los casas y la tierra de mucho gente.

[Jack Doe]

La ciudad puede expropriar mi casa. La West LRT proyecto expropriado los casas y la tierra de mucho gente.

The city can't expropriate land that isn't in the city. As well, the province can't expropriate federal land (the reserve).

[MasterG]

Even then, the value of what was proposed was substantial to say the least. If it was for reserve land, it would have not been such a high ratio and money on top. I believe what had been proposed was more than fair - especially when you consider that Tsuu T'ina First Nation's on-reserve population is less than 2,400 (how is that for sprawl). The proposal would have seen the First Nation transfer 400 hectares of land in exchange for $240 million and 2,000 hectares of Crown land on the northwest border of the reserve stretching west to the edge of Kananskis Country. That would have been $100,000 per person on top of five hectares for each hectare provided. Personally I think it was too much and I think if the land is sacred to the nation, we should respect that and not push them more. Find a way to deal with what is available - and the Tsuu T'ina land is not available.

If i remember the news when that deal was rejected, the issue was that the Tsuu T'ina land deal on the northwest side was proposed, as in the deal did not officially transfer the land (as it requires approval from aboriginal affairs, federal agencies etc.) just that the province will work to give that, which at the time appeared doubtful it could happen quickly or easily. Many of the Tsuu T'ina leaders felt that it might never happen.

If the land swap was straight forward and simple i agree that it was a solid deal. But dealing with the federal government about aboriginal affairs, especially land issues is a bureaucratic nightmare. I would agree that from the Tsuu T'ina perspective, its not a fair shake until that can be guaranteed.

[Jack Doe]

Interesting note: if the SWRR is built on the 37 St SW alignment it's in the federal riding of Calgary SW and if built on Tsuu Tina lands it's just outside the western boundary. Guess who the local (and my) MP is, and why he's been completely MIA on the subject?

[Oliver Klozov]

The notion that the deal fell apart because the province could not guarantee that the feds would add the land to the reserve is a red herring, a cheap excuse. When the province bought land off the Stoneys for the Trans-Canada, the deal was negotiated and a deal struck THEN they applied to the feds to add the land to the reserve. That land isn't even contiguous with the main reserve.

In any case, any deal requires both parties to live up to their side of the bargain. If the feds refused to add the land to the reserve, then the deal is broken and the province doesn't get the land from the reserve and no part of the deal moves forward.

[freeweed]

Yeah - there needs to be a balance in the green talk. An animal other than a human poops and it is called nature. A human animal poops and it is meddling with nature. To me it's all fertilizer.

There's a very old expression about not shitting where you live, sometimes modified as "don't shit where you eat" or (appropriate here) "don't shit in your water supply".

The difference between animals and humans is that we have the intelligence to actually understand when that's a bad thing. Well, some of us anyway.

[freeweed]

Was it me that colonized a continent?
Should I suffer for the sins of my forefathers?

Look, let me explain something to you about recently-colonized landmasses:

You know how in Europe - people have memories going back centuries and they still remember some grudge their great^26 grandfather perpetuated on their neighbour's great^25 uncle? And we have current events today actually being influenced by stuff that happened only in history books, to a people almost unrelated to the currently affected people?

We're just trying to be like them. It really bothers a lot of people that there's nothing "old" in North America (this applies to Australia too), so we have to come up with something that feels like an ancient grievance. Otherwise we don't have enough "culture" and we're not a "real country".

I only wish I was being tongue-in-cheek.

[outoftheice]

Interesting note: if the SWRR is built on the 37 St SW alignment it's in the federal riding of Calgary SW and if built on Tsuu Tina lands it's just outside the western boundary. Guess who the local (and my) MP is, and why he's been completely MIA on the subject?

My thoughts exactly... My understanding is the previous ring road deal fell through because the Tsuu Tina were concerned about making the deal and then not receiving federal approval. If only there was a way to cut through the red tape and present them with a land transfer deal that already had federal approval... it's too bad there are no high level MPs who represent that area of the city who can make a difference.... wait a minute, the MP for Lakeview is the frigg'n Prime Minister!!!! If the Prime Minister of the country can't pull a few strings to cut through some red tape to prevent a large portion of his riding from being bulldozed then what good is it having a PM from Calgary??

As soon as the Tsuu Tina stated that their reason for rejecting the deal was because they wanted something more concrete, the ring road became an issue involving the federal government. I don't understand why that angle hasn't been explored further by the media. Putting pressure on MPs in the Calgary area might just salvage the original deal made between the province and the Tsuu Tina. Even if it doesn't, it may just shake loose a few extra federal infrastructure dollars to try and the problem go away... seems like a win-win idea to me...

[fusili]

La ciudad puede expropriar mi casa. La West LRT proyecto expropriado los casas y la tierra de mucho gente.

The difference is that the Tsuu Tina land is completely under different legal territory than private property. They signed treaties with the Federal Government granting them that land, and the government does not have the legal right to expropriate. Although this is rather simplistic, the Tsuu Tina nation (a more correct term than reserve IMO), is more like a separate country than it is a piece of property within Canada. They enact their own laws and most provincial laws do not apply there (which is why they can have smoking in their casinos). So it is better to think of it as a small country within Canada rather than just another piece of property.

Sorry, my grasp of Spanish wasn't good enough to write that.

[Cage]

Out of the Ice et al,

As soon as Fed gov't gets involved with SWRR, all other land claim disputes across Canada get brought into the debate by Assembly of First Nations. This is why PMO is not getting involved in the Tsu Tina dispute.

[Jack Doe]

It's not a land claim dispute, it's a land transfer transaction.

[Cage]

The minute the PMO sound bites on the Tsu Tina land transfer, the issue immediately becomes embroiled in land claim dispute. AFN will not let the opportunity of a PMO PR nightmare pass them by.

[Jack Doe]

Again, there is no land claim dispute. Nobody is disputing who owns what land.

[Oliver Klozov]

Again, so what. It doesn't matter that this isn't a land claim issue. If the PMO were to weigh in on this issue, which would overstep procedural and jurisdictional protocol, then the AFN would demand he weigh in on all land claim issues. That would be a PR nightmare for the PMO.

[MalcolmTucker]

The government transfer all sort of land - AFN can't block something that the local nation has approved. A couple years ago a block inside of Winnipeg was transferred to a reserve for Pete's sake as part of a deal.

Way over simplification - you aren't going to have people blockading the rail lines and roads all over Canada over transacting a deal that a reserve signed.

[UofC.engineer]

The difference is that the Tsuu Tina land is completely under different legal territory than private property. They signed treaties with the Federal Government granting them that land, and the government does not have the legal right to expropriate. Although this is rather simplistic, the Tsuu Tina nation (a more correct term than reserve IMO), is more like a separate country than it is a piece of property within Canada. They enact their own laws and most provincial laws do not apply there (which is why they can have smoking in their casinos). So it is better to think of it as a small country within Canada rather than just another piece of property.

Sorry, my grasp of Spanish wasn't good enough to write that.

No, don't feel bad, i'm impressed, your spanish is quite good

[freeweed]

you aren't going to have people blockading the rail lines and roads all over Canada over transacting a deal that a reserve signed.

Technically we already have, and many times.

Not that I think this is the case here.

[fusili]

No, don't feel bad, i'm impressed, your spanish is quite good

I took two years at the UofC, then lived in Peru for 2 months, travelled through South America for a month and lived in Barcelona for 4 months. I learned the most Spanish by far the 2 months I lived with a Peruvian family. They could count to 10 and say hi in English and that was it. When you are forced to, you pick up a language pretty fast. :)

[para transit fellow]

The problem I see with this land transfer is that no one is looking at how much of a fight there will be by the folks currently leasing the crown land on the west end of the Tsu Tina land.

There is big money on these leases, rent charged for surface access rights to oil and gas... and sometimes there is a dollar to be made in the cattle industry... Add in Alberta's oldest families and you have a long courtroom debacle before the lands can be transferred.

I believe the Tsu Tina were correct in wanting a more concrete deal... They know the cattlemen using this land won't give it up without a fight.

[MalcolmTucker]

The province can expropriate any land at all, so presumably they could and were prepared to cancel leases. All you need to do is offer fair compensation to the lease holders if the leases are for a long term.

This the the government, you can't stop them from taking stuff. You can make sure you get compensated, but even if other people owned it the province could promise it in a deal.

[Jack Doe]

"The first series of public open houses for the planning study will take place February 22, 23 and 24 in Calgary, March 1 in Okotoks and March 3 in Rocky view County."

http://www.transportation.alberta.ca/4043.htm

Open Houses will be held from 4:00-8:00 pm at the following locations:
 Tues. Feb. 22 – Bethany Chapel (3333 Richardson Way SW)
 Wed. Feb. 23 – Acadia Recreation Complex (240 – 90 Avenue SE)
 Thurs. Feb. 24 – Fish Creek Recreation Complex (100, 333 Shawville Blvd SW)
 Tues. Mar. 1 – Foothills Community Centennial Centre (4, 204 Community Way, Okotoks)
 Thurs. Mar. 3 – Elbow Springs Golf Course Clubhouse (240086 Lott Creek Boulevard, west of Calgary near Highway 8)

[craner]

^Thanks JD - I plan on attending one of those.

[kw5150]

The province can expropriate any land at all, so presumably they could and were prepared to cancel leases. All you need to do is offer fair compensation to the lease holders if the leases are for a long term.

This the the government, you can't stop them from taking stuff. You can make sure you get compensated, but even if other people owned it the province could promise it in a deal.

Exactly. And the price better be good for that prime property! Its just business.

[Koolfire]

So I saw on CBC that there was another open house on the SWRR. For the sounds of it the participants weren't too excited about the 5 options. That doesn't surprise me. I'm not really sure why the province didn't examine option 4 more. Bridge vs Tunnel

[freeweed]

So I saw on CBC that there was another open house on the SWRR. For the sounds of it the participants weren't too excited about the 5 options. That doesn't surprise me. I'm not really sure why the province didn't examine option 4 more. Bridge vs Tunnel

Every single participant was some old fuddy-duddy who lived 2 blocks from the road. And likely doesn't own a car with more than 4000km on it.

I had to laugh at the news stories on this - they basically amounted to "NO BUILDING IT ON 37TH, BUT MAKING A FREEWAY THROUGH THE CITY IS BAD TOO". Um, those literally are your only 2 options, folks, there ain't any more land available. Use your freaking heads. If you want to argue no SWRR, have the balls to say it.

[Mazrim]

I'm not really sure why the province didn't examine option 4 more. Bridge vs Tunnel

Do you really think it's an affordable option? I'm sure they did a high level estimate and called it a day, because not only is the level of disturbance still high with a tunnel, the cost is enormous.

[MalcolmTucker]

With a tunnel, everyone along the route being expropriated will just say 'extend the tunnel' to save my house, it is only an extra 100 m, etc, etc. Because there really isn't a 85m corridor until after Anderson, we will end up with an 8 km tunnel running from Sarcee/Highway 8/Glenmore to Anderson and 37th St.

That would be a huge white elephant project. A tunnel, to protect a creek and homes, next to a huge empty expanse of land.

In my mind there are only really two options that can be built without a totally ruinous expense, expropriation and a bridge, or bisecting the reserve. Even then, neither have clear paths and it is likely easier to build through the reserve with all that entails than to deal with people loosing their homes (fully compensated of course), and building a more than sensitive to the environment bridge.

[Doug]

Couldn't the amount of land needed be dramatically reduced? The last plan I saw had the SWRR requiring reservation land south of 90th Ave, presumably to push it further away from homes in Oakridge and Cedarbrae. There is definetly enough room from 90th south to locate the entire road on City property. There could also be potential to run the ROW down 37th and then jog west to avoid the Weaselhead and then jog east again to rejoin the 37th alignment. I'm unsure if reducing the amount of land required would make the deal more palatable.

[MalcolmTucker]

Well, for the deal on the reserve, the province wanted a corridor big enough to handle all future utility and transportation needs. So 16 lanes of freeway, a couple high tension power lines and such. It was the provinces position that they didn't want to have to go through this all again in 50 years when they needed more land for the outer ring road.

Moving it away from Lakeview and the Weaselhead was also a plus, it avoided the opposition from the local community. It also allowed for an overpass to be built for a huge on reserve power/employment centre that was to be built. That was a big benefit for the reserve.


Taking strips from the north and eastern edges instead solves the expropriation problem, and some of the band members' reservations being cut in two, but Lakeview is still going to be pissy, as will general environmentalists. Even without expropriation it is hard to imagine a government that needs every seat it can get doing such a thing. It also is just another stop gap in the end.

[You Need A Thneed]

just thinking about this today, I'm guessing that this project goes nowhere for the next 20 years.

Too many people will be made unhappy, no matter what they do, so no one will step up and make a hard decision.

[Stang]

just thinking about this today, I'm guessing that this project goes nowhere for the next 20 years.

Too many people will be made unhappy, no matter what they do, so no one will step up and make a hard decision.

I wouldn't be surprised. There aren't really any viable options (assuming that the Tsuu Tina option is dead) that won't be extremely unpopular with someone, and nobody will be willing to take the political risk to push something through. I can't see something like Crowchild happening again (which was cut through a large portion of the SW). Before my time, but it is pretty clear that they would have had to take out a few homes for that one.

If you're right, what happens in 10, 20, or 30 years? The issue won't be going away. Do we settle with an incomplete ring, or do we revisit the idea when it costs more money, disrupts more people, etc.?

[Stang]

I had to laugh at the news stories on this - they basically amounted to "NO BUILDING IT ON 37TH, BUT MAKING A FREEWAY THROUGH THE CITY IS BAD TOO". Um, those literally are your only 2 options, folks, there ain't any more land available. Use your freaking heads. If you want to argue no SWRR, have the balls to say it.

I think that we're approaching the point where the city/province has to say "OK - we're going 37th and Weaselhead. Now how can we do this with the least impact on the neighbourhood, environment, etc."

The 14th street options are patchwork and would be far more disruptive to more communities without really addressing the traffic issues of the area. The Tsuu Tina deal should be forgotten until the city has an actual plan that they are prepared to enact. If the Nation wants to come back and accept the previous offer (or a slightly clarified/re-tooled version), great, but otherwise it is time to get on with it.

I would like to see the impact on Lakeview and the Weaselhead kept to a minimum, of course, but I don't see another way to do it, realistically. Poor planning a long time ago is the culprit, but at some point we have to move on and push ahead.

[fusili]

I would like to see the impact on Lakeview and the Weaselhead kept to a minimum, of course, but I don't see another way to do it, realistically. Poor planning a long time ago is the culprit, but at some point we have to move on and push ahead.

This is exactly the culprit. Calgary really needs to start and think long-term. Reserving ROWs for road and transit infrastructure may look excessive in the short term, but the benefits long term are huge. Sadly this isn't the case.

[Stang]

This is exactly the culprit. Calgary really needs to start and think long-term. Reserving ROWs for road and transit infrastructure may look excessive in the short term, but the benefits long term are huge. Sadly this isn't the case.

I think that they've gotten a lot better at it in the past 20 or so years. The hilariously-huge median on Harvest Hills Boulevard, for example, will undoubtedly look brilliant when it eventually gets put to use for a C-Train. Getting it to that location will be the hard part!

[freeweed]

I think we're already at the point where the city/province has to step up and say "OK, 1 million people take precedence over 500, tough shit, this is how virtually all civic decisions work". This happens every day. I could bitch and moan about a thousand things that happen every year to someone else's benefit but don't help me at all (or negatively affect me); instead I understand how society works.

I'm really not sure why specific issues like this become such a huge point of contention, when there are plenty more than just proceed quietly. Louder NIMBYs in Lakeview maybe?

[suburb]

I think that they've gotten a lot better at it in the past 20 or so years. The hilariously-huge median on Harvest Hills Boulevard, for example, will undoubtedly look brilliant when it eventually gets put to use for a C-Train. Getting it to that location will be the hard part!

Yup - I look at that median from my window everyday and envy the next owner of my house :(

[freeweed]

I think that they've gotten a lot better at it in the past 20 or so years. The hilariously-huge median on Harvest Hills Boulevard, for example, will undoubtedly look brilliant when it eventually gets put to use for a C-Train. Getting it to that location will be the hard part!

Surely some dipshit will try to argue that the city is taking away his/her "park" when that happens. :rolleyes:

[Stang]

My wife and I were in an accident (damn - just realized that'll be 10 years ago soon!) at Harvest Hills Boulevard and Harvest Oak Gate. Someone didn't think that they'd wait at the stop sign and we promptly smoked them as they pulled out abruptly and wrote our own car off in the process. The funny thing is, because of the width of the median, they only had to look in one direction for traffic. Somehow they didn't see us. :rolleyes:

And my wife was driving, so speed definitely wasn't a factor. ;)

[suburb]

My wife and I were in an accident (damn - just realized that'll be 10 years ago soon!) at Harvest Hills Boulevard and Harvest Oak Gate. Someone didn't think that they'd wait at the stop sign and we promptly smoked them as they pulled out abruptly and wrote our own car off in the process. The funny thing is, because of the width of the median, they only had to look in one direction for traffic. Somehow they didn't see us. :rolleyes:

And my wife was driving, so speed definitely wasn't a factor. ;)

They added lights at that intersection some years ago, so it is not an issue now. I live like five houses from there (yes it hasn't sold yet - ugh) and that's where we get the 301 to get to DT speedily.

[Ferreth]

I've been looking at the options being considered and am wondering if the province might consider a phased version of options 4 & 5?

You would build option 5, to a lower standard:
- 6 lane 14th w. interchanges on 14th, & Anderson 14th w. EB>NB flyover
- Leave lights on Anderson section & 37th St.
- No added lanes on Glenmore causeway
- Upgraded Glenmore east of Crowchild to basic freeway standard, 6 lanes.
- 37th St. extended to 22X, possibly some upgrades on existing section

Phase 2 would be to build route 4, being able to salvage at least some of the Glenmore upgrades & the 37th St. upgrades. It's not like 14th St. was not going to happen sooner or later, so those upgrades wouldn't be a total waste.

In the meanwhile, buy property on an opportunity basis along the 37th St ROW, with a new negotiation with the reserve for a strip as a second possibility.

The disadvantage is larger long term cost to the Province, since they'd be paying for more of the cost 14th St/Glenmore upgrades the city might have paid for themselves eventually, and 14th St. might end up overbuilt for the area, although perhaps an LRT could replace 2 lanes of 14th after a route 4 ring road opened. Another possibility is that route 4 never gets built, since the phase 1 workings never get bad enough to warrant the political hit.

The advantage is better current political optics, somewhat of a ring road in the meanwhile, lower immediate costs (not sure about that one, but again, a lot of this is going to be built in the next 20 years anyways), and at least something gets built, which as other have pointed out, may not happen with the current fiscal/political climate. Oh, I also see no further land impact, as no upgrades on 14th/Glenmore would require extra land.

[UofC.engineer]

Just came back from the Acadia open house today. All I can tell you is this project is a mess...

They want to build a 14 lane highway on either Anderson, Macleod, 14th or Glenmore. No matter what option they choose some people are going to lose their homes:(

There were some people handing out a petition and giving away "Save Glenmore" shirts, getting ready to put up a big fight. Here is an article on it:

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/calgary/story/2011/02/23/calgary-southwest-ring-road-open-house-reaction.html

The SW portion of the Ring Road will not be built any day soon, because most of the resistance will come from Lakeview residents and the province said they will not do anything without the approval from Lakeview...making them a STAKEHOLDER. The bold and underline is for Mr. Moncton Golden Flames


When I was filling out a comment sheet I was tempted to write "WHERE WILL THE CHILDREN PLAY" but I decided to take it seriously.

[MalcolmTucker]

From that story: "There are not very many really pristine natural areas in Calgary," said Duncan Kent, president of the Lakeview Community Association.

There are tonnes of natural areas in Calgary compared to many cities, and to be frank, the Weaselhead is far from natural. Doesn't make it less sensitive than bald prairie, but all the talk like we are planning to pave paradise to put up a parking lot is a little ridiculous.

[Doug]

Well, for the deal on the reserve, the province wanted a corridor big enough to handle all future utility and transportation needs. So 16 lanes of freeway, a couple high tension power lines and such. It was the provinces position that they didn't want to have to go through this all again in 50 years when they needed more land for the outer ring road.


Realistically would a 16 lane freeway ever be built? The strip of land between Oakridge/Cedarbrae is wide enough for an 8 lane freeway and if the power lines are ever really needed, it might be worth the while to bury them for the stretch between 90th and Anderson. There is a huge difference between planning for all future contingencies and realistic future contingencies.

There seem to be too many competing interests for this project to stand any change of succeeding. The City seems reluctant to take on the NIMBYs and the Province seems to be living in a SimCity fantasy world.

[UofC.engineer]

From that story:

There are tonnes of natural areas in Calgary compared to many cities, and to be frank, the Weaselhead is far from natural. Doesn't make it less sensitive than bald prairie, but all the talk like we are planning to pave paradise to put up a parking lot is a little ridiculous.

I agree, it has only been a part time wetland since the 30's when the dam was built.

[Ferreth]

I agree, it has only been a part time wetland since the 30's when the dam was built.

Speaking from my BSc in Ecology training, its a fucking RESERVOIR. Nothing natural about the yo-yo water levels and delta structure here. Sure, it has some good bird habitat, and a few plant species that are rare, but that ain't the issue. The locals are going to grasp at any straw to try to sway public opinion against this project.

[Koolfire]

From that story:

There are tonnes of natural areas in Calgary compared to many cities, and to be frank, the Weaselhead is far from natural. Doesn't make it less sensitive than bald prairie, but all the talk like we are planning to pave paradise to put up a parking lot is a little ridiculous.

They make it sound like they are going to pave over all of Glenmore reservoir. If I was them I worry more about how they do the bridge. I hope they don't do it like how the currently like for Glenmore trail. There you can see they bridged half the gap with dirt and half bridge.
http://maps.google.ca/?ie=UTF8&ll=50.995499,-114.09865&spn=0.005605,0.016512&t=h&z=17

[Stang]

The Weselhead is a nice area, but as mentioned, it has only existed for 70 or 80 years in its current form. I'd hate to lose it though, but I think that a compromise can be made.

Although it wouldn't be cheap, a nice bridge with as few supports as possible could span the natural areas and allow wildlife, water, and recreational activities to continue unimpeded below.

[srperrycgy]

I've been trying to stir the pot on Twitter on the SWRR on the pro side and I strongly suggest everyone try and do the same.

[Ferreth]

The Weselhead is a nice area, but as mentioned, it has only existed for 70 or 80 years in its current form. I'd hate to lose it though, but I think that a compromise can be made.

Although it wouldn't be cheap, a nice bridge with as few supports as possible could span the natural areas and allow wildlife, water, and recreational activities to continue unimpeded below.

I think a final bridge would have a similar feel for someone walking through the weasel head like this example, Bowness Park. (http://maps.google.ca/maps?hl=en&ie=UTF8&ll=51.096461,-114.218802&spn=0.023232,0.052314&z=15&layer=c&cbll=51.098076,-114.229542&panoid=dvMXZNrYz8Xc4HF2Obi4dg&cbp=12,314.76,,0,2.28) Honestly, the diminished quality of the park really ought to be pretty low on people's minds. It's not like we are talking 50th Ave / Sandy Beach, where the freeway would go right through the middle of the park - what it is going to do is make the view from the lake shore looking west not so nice looking on a pier bridge crossing the lake delta. It might help a bit if the bridge design were to be something special, like a suspension bridge, perhaps?

[Blue 24]

If they Did do a bridge, they could have a Design contest to have most environmentally friendly, least intrusive design. maybe like the Viaduc de Millau which had to have little impact on the valley it was going over.

I thought i heard on the news that the Provence likes the tunnel Bridge idea best too?

[DizzyEdge]

It would be nice if there are some public protests as I have a really good idea of something to put on tshirts.

[Bassic Lab]

I think we're already at the point where the city/province has to step up and say "OK, 1 million people take precedence over 500, tough shit, this is how virtually all civic decisions work". This happens every day. I could bitch and moan about a thousand things that happen every year to someone else's benefit but don't help me at all (or negatively affect me); instead I understand how society works.

I'm really not sure why specific issues like this become such a huge point of contention, when there are plenty more than just proceed quietly. Louder NIMBYs in Lakeview maybe?

I really can't think of too many projects that affect as many people and proceed quietly. Well, I can't think of any recent examples anyway. The GE5 would be the closest that comes to mind. The province just went through a huge fight over transmission lines through farmland.

I wonder how this issue will be seen in the decades to come. It could be built and, like Crowchild, no one will care. It could be built and we'll remember it as an error. It could be canceled and lauded like the efforts to keep Inglewood from being paved over. I imagine in the past there were people bemoaning the few who stopped the downtown penetrator from benefitting the many.

[fusili]

They want to build a 14 lane highway on either Anderson, Macleod, 14th or Glenmore. No matter what option they choose some people are going to lose their homes:(
.

Seriously? That is f**king ridiculous. 4 lanes on either side is sufficient. Alberta Transportation overbuilds everything.

Or maybe they are just saying this so that whatever solution that does end up being chosen looks good by comparison.

[MalcolmTucker]

Well, if you aren't adding new lanes, just designating a route 'the ring road' is pretty pointless. Adding 8 lanes to Glenmore would take it to 14, and the causeway even higher.

[UofC.engineer]

Or maybe they are just saying this so that whatever solution that does end up being chosen looks good by comparison.

I kind of got the impression they were trying to sway people towards Option #4. To build over/under Weaselhead.

[UofC.engineer]

It would be nice if there are some public protests as I have a really good idea of something to put on tshirts.

lol...I hope it's not what I think it is

[fusili]

Well, if you aren't adding new lanes, just designating a route 'the ring road' is pretty pointless. Adding 8 lanes to Glenmore would take it to 14, and the causeway even higher.

Do you not see a 14 lane road as a little excessive in a city of 1 million people?

[freeweed]

I really can't think of too many projects that affect as many people and proceed quietly. Well, I can't think of any recent examples anyway. The GE5 would be the closest that comes to mind. The province just went through a huge fight over transmission lines through farmland.

Err.. I hope you can think of a few things that affect more than 500 people. Property tax increases would be a big one I'd think. Pretty sure they affect more than 500 people a year.

I'm being deliberately flippant, because a 4% tax hike is a tad different than "losing" your house, but the point remains - this is an extremely small, vocal group of people. Nothing more. Imagine if we had this reaction for every city decision - the city would be paralyzed. Want to cut back police services? Surely more than 500 people are affected by that. Want to change how snow removal is done? Unless you're only changing 2 blocks, more than 500 people are affected. Etc.

It's stupid and frustrating and is why stuff just never gets done sometimes. The WLRT was the same. We end up spending billions extra on all these accommodations for a tiny group of people, and don't have the money to finish things or do them right.

And we wonder why it takes 15 months to replace a concrete apron on 7th Ave, and 4 years to build an LRT station in the suburbs. Yet the protest in this city is over a measly $25m bridge.It's maddening.

[freeweed]

Do you not see a 14 lane road as a little excessive in a city of 1 million people?

I hope like hell the "14 lane" idea is forward-thinking. Which hasn't been done for this road so far, which is exactly why we're in this mess in the first place.

50 years ago I'm sure someone said "do you not see a ring road as a little excessive for a city of 200,000 people?" and that's why Lakeview was built as is.

[You Need A Thneed]

The 14 lane road wouldn't be for a city of 1 million, it would be for a city of 2 million. The province wants to plan ahead a little bit so they only have to do this process once in the next 100 years.

[MalcolmTucker]

I hope like hell the "14 lane" idea is forward-thinking. Which hasn't been done for this road so far, which is exactly why we're in this mess in the first place.

50 years ago I'm sure someone said "do you not see a ring road as a little excessive for a city of 200,000 people?" and that's why Lakeview was built as is.

The 14 lane road wouldn't be for a city of 1 million, it would be for a city of 2 million. The province wants to plan ahead a little bit so they only have to do this process once in the next 100 years.

Do you not see a 14 lane road as a little excessive in a city of 1 million people?

Important to remember that we are talking about two different things. The province wanted to build the ultimate stage of the south west ring road through the reserve up to 16 lanes, which would carry both 8 lanes for Stoney Trail and 8 lanes for the as yet unnamed, largely unplanned outer ring road called by the province the Regional Ring Road.

As far as I know, all the alternative plans only consider the 8 lanes of Stoney Trail, not the 16 lanes of the late century ultimate build out fantasy. Since the Stoney project is about adding capacity, it only makes sense to be adding lanes, I would imagine almost as 'express lanes', making the existing freeways 'collectors'. Adding the existing 6 lanes of Glenmore to the 8 lanes of the Stoney build out and you get at least one section of 14 lane freeway with any of the alternatives on the table, including the 37th Street alignment.

[Mazrim]

My favorite part of these open houses was the people going up to the reps and saying "aren't you just making all this material to make it sound like 37th is the best when it isn't?" and they'd have to explain for the 500th time that they did the same analysis, same cost estimates, same reports for every option. Just because 37th came out as the best doesn't mean it's a conspiracy...but I guess these days anything people don't like is a conspiracy at all.

I'm about ready to stop reading stuff about the SWRR. After the open house, I've had enough of listening to these people complain. I've made my opinion known and it only makes me more frustrated to hear this stuff, so it's time to just accept that it will forever be contested by some ignorant person and pretend it wasn't going to happen in the first place.

[You Need A Thneed]

My favorite part of these open houses was the people going up to the reps and saying "aren't you just making all this material to make it sound like 37th is the best when it isn't?" and they'd have to explain for the 500th time that they did the same analysis, same cost estimates, same reports for every option. Just because 37th came out as the best doesn't mean it's a conspiracy...but I guess these days anything people don't like is a conspiracy at all.

I'm about ready to stop reading stuff about the SWRR. After the open house, I've had enough of listening to these people complain. I've made my opinion known and it only makes me more frustrated to hear this stuff, so it's time to just accept that it will forever be contested by some ignorant person and pretend it wasn't going to happen in the first place.

It should have been really obvious from the start that the 37th Street route would be the best all things considered, IMO.

Under any option, there would be a large new bridge over the reservior, whether it be in the weaselhead, or by the existing causeway.

It shouldn't take a genius to figure out that adding all the ring road traffic to existing busy roads would require those existing roads to become a lot wider than they currently are.

[MonctonGoldenFlames]

The SW portion of the Ring Road will not be built any day soon, because most of the resistance will come from Lakeview residents and the province said they will not do anything without the approval from Lakeview...making them a STAKEHOLDER. The bold and underline is for Mr. Moncton Golden Flames

so new information comes out 2 months after i state my opinion, and you're acting tough about it? bravo sir, bravo.

this means, at the time i made my comment, i was right. only now are the residents of lakeview getting special recognition for the project.

[Oliver Klozov]

It should have been really obvious from the start that the 37th Street route would be the best all things considered, ....


Absolutely! For me it`s just down to how many homes in Lakeview need to go AND how many homes in Glamorgan need to go. I think the best design would be about an equal number in each. That would allow the curve from Glenmore to 37th to be at a design speed high enough to still call this thing a freeway. Also it would mitigate the supposedly extreme effect on Lakeview -


But with 37th Street S.W. a likely choice, as many as 500 houses could be standing in the way, said Duncan Kent, president of the Lakeview Community Association.

"So it would be about 20 per cent or one-fifth of the community that would be lost," he said.

[fusili]

I hope like hell the "14 lane" idea is forward-thinking. Which hasn't been done for this road so far, which is exactly why we're in this mess in the first place.

50 years ago I'm sure someone said "do you not see a ring road as a little excessive for a city of 200,000 people?" and that's why Lakeview was built as is.

Ok, I'll change my wording. Do you see anypoint to a 14 lane highway for a city of 4 million people? At some point we need to understand that simply increasing road capacity doesn't help. And the Lakeview issue isn't about the size of the road, it is about the location of it. You can't fit anything between those houses and the reserve.

[MalcolmTucker]

In Lakeview I count less than 90 homes in an 85m corridor pushed right against the boundary, plus two phases of the apartments right at 37th and Glenmore. Plenty of homes loose back lane access, and part of their backyards, but the number even with those is below 200. Maybe 80 apartments on top of that.

To get to 500 homes he must be thinking a full corridor including the future hypothetical outer ring road.

A map with 85 m corridors:
http://maps.google.com/maps/ms?ie=UTF8&hl=en&msa=0&ll=50.980247,-114.149701&spn=0.090352,0.307274&t=h&z=12&msid=206820091103928423336.00049d0d11b5f061fc7ee

Do you see anypoint to a 14 lane highway for a city of 4 million people?

Depends where and what we are asking it to do. Certainly I wouldn't want to just add a lane to Glenmore and 14th St and call it a day. Cars aren't bad in and of themselves, and stopping the project won't eliminate the trips that this project is destined to serve.

[You Need A Thneed]

You can't just do that, though, as cars would have to slow down to 30km/h to make it around the corner. You have to cut into the community somewhere to get the required radius.

[MalcolmTucker]

You can't just do that, though, as cars would have to slow down to 30km/h to make it around the corner. You have to cut into the community somewhere to get the required radius.

There is a reason the boxes don't touch! I don't think anyone would try to put a full speed curve on it anyways - the extra costs vs the benefits wouldn't be worth it.

[fusili]

I know I come across as "anti-road" sometimes, but there is being anti-road and there is questioning the need for a 16 lane road around the SW of the city. 6 lanes going from 37th to Marquis of Lorne makes sense to me. 16 doesn't.

[Mazrim]

I know I come across as "anti-road" sometimes, but there is being anti-road and there is questioning the need for a 16 lane road around the SW of the city. 6 lanes going from 37th to Marquis of Lorne makes sense to me. 16 doesn't.

Really? Right now the 9 lane Causeway is unable to handle the traffic loads crossing the Glenmore Resevoir. What it needs is 12 lanes. I'm not sure how the thought of 4-5 core lanes and 2-3 collector lanes per direction is such a far-fetched idea 50-100 years from now where the inner and outer SW ring roads combine. Just think about how that kind of highway works. Use the 401 as an example. I don't see the confusion in the methodology at all.

[bookermorgan]

How much space does a ROW need? By my rough adding there is a 31.4m Road Allowance there already.
Add another 36.6m when you demo the houses fronting 37th.
68m

If we have shoulder 3.05m (10ft), 5 lanes @ 3.66m (12ft), shoulder 3.05m (10ft), median 3.05m (10ft), shoulder 3.05m (10ft), 5 lanes @ 3.66m (12ft), shoulder 3.05m = 51.85m

Am I way off here?

[You Need A Thneed]

How much space does a ROW need? By my rough adding there is a 31.4m Road Allowance there already.
Add another 36.6m when you demo the houses fronting 37th.
68m

If we have shoulder 3.05m (10ft), 5 lanes @ 3.66m (12ft), shoulder 3.05m (10ft), median 3.05m (10ft), shoulder 3.05m (10ft), 5 lanes @ 3.66m (12ft), shoulder 3.05m = 51.85m

Am I way off here?

You need separation distance to mitigate the noise, and you need a place to plow snow off of the road into.

[bookermorgan]

You need separation distance to mitigate the noise, and you need a place to plow snow off of the road into.

Well the 9.14m Lane still exists, and 16m more. I dont know how much space is needed for snow and noise...

[O-tacular]

I don't normally wade into this debate but... I think before the city moves ahead with the ringroad they need to at least widen Glenmore between Sarcee and Crowchild from 4 lanes to 6. Widening the bridge over the reservoir was pointless as traffic bottlenecks going West bound b/c you have 8 lanes go down to 4. The entire thing is ridiculous. They have the space on the shoulders. Fucking widen it already. Every day my commute gets bogged down in that stretch from 37th to 14th. And guess what? Every day there's an accident or stalled car reducing traffic to 1 lane.:hell: I know things will never be perfect where Crowchild merges onto Glenmore, but at least the west end of the city will have an actual serviceable arterial connector to the rest.

[Jack Doe]

"Lakeview residents and their napkin-estimated 700 houses being demolished"

The Lakeview estimate is explained in their newsletter and is based on a 8-lane, 90 metre ROW. It also includes 200-250 homes in Glamorgan. Based on measurements I made in Google Earth the ROW on 37 St is 26m and that of Glenmore Trail is 34m. South of the reservoir the ROW on the 37 St corridor is 65m. By taking out the housing fronting onto 37 St and Glenmore you could increase the ROWs to 68m and 86m respectively. It would involve approximately 221 units in Lakeview (37 houses, 32 duplexes, 3 apartment blocks) and 115 in Glamorgan (15 houses, 12 fourplexes, 13 seniors units (fourplexes?) and 1 nursing home). That ROW would probably be enough to accomodate a Crowchild type freeway (80km/h).

The MOU between the province and city is for a 8-lane, 110-km/h corridor with the acknowledgement that the design speed may be lower due to the constrained nature of the route location. The 16-lane configuration was based on a second ring road being built about 3-4 miles outside of Stoney Trail with the SWRR having to double as the SouthWest leg of this ring road as well. This seems to have fallen out of favour with province's highway planners.



It seems odd to be quoting myself but some people may have missed this the first time around.

When I talked to a AB Transportation rep at the Acadia open house yesterday, he confirmed that the outer ring road idea has been shelved.

In non-South West news, the throne speech implied that the Nose Hill I/C would start construction this year and be completed by the end of 2012. There should be confirmation of this when the budget and the 3 year construction program are released today.

[fusili]

Really? Right now the 9 lane Causeway is unable to handle the traffic loads crossing the Glenmore Resevoir. What it needs is 12 lanes. I'm not sure how the thought of 4-5 core lanes and 2-3 collector lanes per direction is such a far-fetched idea 50-100 years from now where the inner and outer SW ring roads combine. Just think about how that kind of highway works. Use the 401 as an example. I don't see the confusion in the methodology at all.

If your example of good transportation planning is the 401, you may need to rethink your argument.

[MalcolmTucker]

he confirmed that the outer ring road idea has been shelved

Woot. That is excellent.

[Jack Doe]

I don't normally wade into this debate but... I think before the city moves ahead with the ringroad they need to at least widen Glenmore between Sarcee and Crowchild from 4 lanes to 6.

This has been on hold for the past 8 years pending resolution of the SWRR debate. Same with upgrades to 14 St SW and Anderson Rd.

Don't expect any progress anytime soon.

[Bassic Lab]

Woot. That is excellent.

I would actually prefer it if they had kept it on the books. It would give us an opportunity to try and lobby for the funds to instead be transferred to transit. We could tell them that if they plan on spending billions on area transportation we want commuter rail and LRT projects instead of another ring road. If instead they have no plans, it would likely be more difficult to convince them to spend the money.

[O-tacular]

This has been on hold for the past 8 years pending resolution of the SWRR debate. Same with upgrades to 14 St SW and Anderson Rd.

Don't expect any progress anytime soon.

That's exactly my point! We'll be stuck with a shitty GLenmroe trail indefinitely if we wait for the SWRR resolution. How would adding an extra lane in either direction between 37th and Crowchild conflict with Ring Road plans. NO matter what they end up doing the road needs to be wider. Same thing for Hwy 8 going west. Add extra lanes as it can't handle the traffic from all the new communities. I fucking hate politics and red tape. It's a necessity so fucking do it!

[Mazrim]

If your example of good transportation planning is the 401, you may need to rethink your argument.

How they planned the 401 isn't my intention, it is the mechanics of a collector-express freeway. How the network revolves around that constitutes a poor or excellent planning strategy. As of right now, the originally planned route through the native reserve with a collector-express freeway section would have been fine as there was obviously was not going to be major development on the West side of it. The 401 is trying to feed cities it cannot handle on it's own, and the connections exacerbate the problem.

[Koolfire]

Really? Right now the 9 lane Causeway is unable to handle the traffic loads crossing the Glenmore Resevoir. What it needs is 12 lanes. I'm not sure how the thought of 4-5 core lanes and 2-3 collector lanes per direction is such a far-fetched idea 50-100 years from now where the inner and outer SW ring roads combine. Just think about how that kind of highway works. Use the 401 as an example. I don't see the confusion in the methodology at all.

10 lanes would be fine if there wasn't any weaving. The problem is that to eliminate the weave the Crowchild/Glenmore and the 14th st/Glemore interchanges would have to be rebuilt.

Minneapolis had to do something similar recently. Today (http://www.startribune.com/newsgraphics/106571428.html) and Past (http://maps.google.ca/?ie=UTF8&ll=44.890988,-93.283088&spn=0.006529,0.016512&t=k&z=17)

[Ferreth]

Looking at the '11-'14 Major Provincial Highway Projects (http://www.transportation.alberta.ca/Content/docType181/production/Provincial%20Highways%202011-2014.pdf), I see that the Nose Hill Dr. Interchange has made the list, however not really much else for the current ring road. In other news:

Twinning of the 1A to Cochrane is contracted for '10-11 construction. I have not been out there in a while - is any work happening?

#2 improvements on the books to move towards no level crossings - I see Bergthall Road (near Didsbury/Olds) is on the books to build an interchange - I muchly hated that level crossing back in the days when I had to negotiate it with a truck and trailer - glad to see that one go.

No show on Deerfoot/Glenmore - I think we are stuck with that one for a while with the province all focused on ring roads. Wish they'd put a little more into Deerfoot and add that interchange for upgrades.

[MichaelS]

Looking at the '11-'14 Major Provincial Highway Projects (http://www.transportation.alberta.ca/Content/docType181/production/Provincial%20Highways%202011-2014.pdf), I see that the Nose Hill Dr. Interchange has made the list, however not really much else for the current ring road. In other news:

Twinning of the 1A to Cochrane is contracted for '10-11 construction. I have not been out there in a while - is any work happening?

#2 improvements on the books to move towards no level crossings - I see Bergthall Road (near Didsbury/Olds) is on the books to build an interchange - I muchly hated that level crossing back in the days when I had to negotiate it with a truck and trailer - glad to see that one go.

No show on Deerfoot/Glenmore - I think we are stuck with that one for a while with the province all focused on ring roads. Wish they'd put a little more into Deerfoot and add that interchange for upgrades.

Perhaps they are waiting for the Deerfoot to go back under City jurisdiction, so they (the Province) won't have to pay for it at all.

[mersar]

Looking at the '11-'14 Major Provincial Highway Projects (http://www.transportation.alberta.ca/Content/docType181/production/Provincial%20Highways%202011-2014.pdf), I see that the Nose Hill Dr. Interchange has made the list, however not really much else for the current ring road. In other news:

Twinning of the 1A to Cochrane is contracted for '10-11 construction. I have not been out there in a while - is any work happening?


Initial grading started in the fall, some of the deeper drop offs into the coulees nearer to cochrane have been filled (using excess fill from Stoney projects apparently).

[freeweed]

Initial grading started in the fall, some of the deeper drop offs into the coulees nearer to cochrane have been filled (using excess fill from Stoney projects apparently).

Does the twinning include the big hill? I've always wondered how they'd handle that. Just cut further into the hill?

Any way the grade can be mitigated?

[Cage]

Minneapolis had to do something similar recently. Today (http://www.startribune.com/newsgraphics/106571428.html) and Past (http://maps.google.ca/?ie=UTF8&ll=44.890988,-93.283088&spn=0.006529,0.016512&t=k&z=17)

A four lane tunnel underpass under MSP (which is right beside the Commons) together with a transit/LRT corridor would have been much simpler and more cost effective. :notacrook: :jester:

[Seadood]

Does the twinning include the big hill? I've always wondered how they'd handle that. Just cut further into the hill?

Any way the grade can be mitigated?

Yup - bypass!
That whole 1A/22 schmozzle has been failing for several years now. New developments north and west of town. Summer time is a jamup.

[mersar]

Does the twinning include the big hill? I've always wondered how they'd handle that. Just cut further into the hill?

Any way the grade can be mitigated?


Nope, the twinning ends right at the Gleneagles Drive intersection. Traffic volumes down the hill itself aren't too bad, and even adding another lane (since twinning it is pretty much impossible) would be an extremely costly venture since you'd have to cut into the hill and stabilize it in quite a few places. Adding the 4th lane on the hill may need to happen eventually, but not any time soon. As for a bypass, that would be costly as well, since you have a huge coulee to go over (and likely would require a decent sized bridge, or a huge cut into the side on each side and a smaller bridge), and it wouldn't solve too many problems since the biggest problem is the volume of traffic originating in the town itself.

Fortunately they did make some improvements to 1A @ 22 last summer (new turn lanes, etc), but a longer term fix needs to be done (either interchange or increasing the number of lanes at the intersection even more), and there is at least some start to a plan on the books to happen when they finally twin 22 from highway 1 through to 1A.

[Jack Doe]

It appears that the twinning will be extended to Hwy 22.

1A E of Hwy 22 to W of Hwy 766 Twinning - Grade, Base, Stage Paving 6 [km]
Contract for 2010 & 2011 Construction
1A Major Intersection Improvement @ Jct Hwy 1A & 22 Intersection Improvement
1A Bighill Creek Bridge on Highway 1A, at N Boundary of Cochrane (521-1)
Structure Replacement
1A Hwy 22 - E of Hwy 22 Twinning - Grade, Base, Stage Paving 4 [km]

22 CPR Overpass on Highway 22, at W Boundary of Cochrane (77466-1)
Twinning - Structure

This is from the 2011-14 Major Construction Projects. The 4 km from 22 to the current twinning as well as the 22 CPR Overpass twinning is new.

I would like to see an interchange at 1A/22 but I think the budget deficit precludes this.

Planning info can be found here:

http://www.transportation.alberta.ca/projects/calgary.aspx

Unfortunately, it doesn't show the configuration of 1A on Cochrane Hill.

[jsbertram]

In Lakeview I count less than 90 homes in an 85m corridor pushed right against the boundary, plus two phases of the apartments right at 37th and Glenmore. Plenty of homes loose back lane access, and part of their backyards, but the number even with those is below 200. Maybe 80 apartments on top of that.

To get to 500 homes he must be thinking a full corridor including the future hypothetical outer ring road.

A map with 85 m corridors:
http://maps.google.com/maps/ms?ie=UTF8&hl=en&msa=0&ll=50.980247,-114.149701&spn=0.090352,0.307274&t=h&z=12&msid=206820091103928423336.00049d0d11b5f061fc7ee



Depends where and what we are asking it to do. Certainly I wouldn't want to just add a lane to Glenmore and 14th St and call it a day. Cars aren't bad in and of themselves, and stopping the project won't eliminate the trips that this project is destined to serve.

Interesting to read the Jan 29th Workshop Presentation (http://www.transportation.alberta.ca/Content/docType490/Production/CSWRR/Communities_workshop_1.pdf), and wasn't surprised to see that the tunnelling options need 60 -80 m of ROW space, which is larger than what is easily available on 37th St in Lakeview.

However, I haven't seen anyone bring up the idea that the tunnels could be stacked so the ROW space can be less than 40 m.

I've taken the cut n cover Schematic from page 25 and re-designed it as a stacked cut n cover tunnel.
Building such a tunnel 25 m deep isn't difficult anymore.

http://img231.imageshack.us/img231/5087/stackedswrrtunnel.png