[nec209]

I was in vaughan today and I have to say this new suburb thing is not good even in down town Toronto it is better here is why.

There is lack of roads in vaughan because they make use of housing clusters or pods and some subdivisions are surrounded by walls anyways the subdivisions are dependant on collector roads and this force all the traffic to the collector roads and thus you have high traffic problems.You can see the collector roads in yellow not many because most new suburbs there is a collector roads every 2 or 3 KM not like grid system where there many streets. Well using a grid system or not those big clusters or pods of subdivisions the collector roads cannot deal with the traffic problem besuse lack of collector roads and they are so spread out.

http://img339.imageshack.us/img339/2402/01bo6.jpg

Here is other shot.

http://img339.imageshack.us/img339/4813/02mv4.jpg

Look at the road at the top than the one below look how spread out it is!!Well walking is inposable in vaughan.

Other thing is stores are in clusters in vaughan in different areas and looking for store can be hard because it does not make use of line stores but clusters.

Here is drewaing to explian it better.

http://img339.imageshack.us/img339/9431/03th0.jpg

The green is green space and the blue is parking lot and black is store or strip mall.It is in cluster by a intersection..

Here is line store like a main street a street that is use for shopping.



http://img511.imageshack.us/img511/3286/04ei7.jpg

You see how much it is easer it is to find a store!!

[vid]

Yeah, modern city planning is bizarre. But the grid system has it's flaws too.

[someone123]

But they have an IKEA.

[vid]

Great. Now Tony is going to close the thread. :rolleyes:

We could have had a decent discussion, too!

[nec209]

Well vaughan has many stores it is just the way they put the stores and such.


But the grid system has it's flaws too.

Most of the grid system stop when cars became the big thing .Try to get around the city before 1930 almost imposable:(

[DrJoe]

This is 'The City Above Toronto', it doesn't have to make sense.

[LordMandeep]

Toronto has two ikeas so what....

[Sacamano]

what is Vaughan?

However I've heard of Concord, Maple, Woodbridge, etc. though

[nec209]

This is 'The City Above Toronto', it doesn't have to make sense.

Yes but if you own a car it does not matter.Well before cars you had to use grid system now you don't have to use a grid system ,I'm sure in 40 years culs-de-sac and many neighborhood streets that are dead ends or circular, serving no connective function will be old fashion.

It is just on foot it is imposable with out a grid system or massive overhaul witch just patch job.

what is Vaughan?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vaughan

[LordMandeep]

Woodbridge is Little Italy suburban style
Concord is industrial

[Tony]

Great. Now Tony is going to close the thread. :rolleyes:


riiiiight...

Anyway, all the points mentioned are the most basic urban planning / design issues that practically all suburban municipalities now face. Unfortunately for Vaughan, the City is still hopelessly lost and being left behind while other municipalities are striving to correct and change the situation with new developments. Even Mississauga, Markham and Richmond Hill are doing things differently.

[niwell]

Interestingly enough newer areas of Vaughan (like much of the GTA) are based off of a modified grid system. The problem is, this system is only linked to the arterial roads at a few points. Additionally, there are little to no retail opportunities within these subdivisions.

Of course, these gridded subdivisions may be intensified in the future much easier than normal subdivisions.

[Doady]

Vaughan has a new mayor now who seems more serious about transit and building higher density to support it, so we may see some change in the way ti is planned.

The road system in Vaughan will be hard to fix though because you can't build new arterials through existing subdivisions. All they have been doing is just using the existing arterial road system and not ever expanding it.

Suburbs like Mississauga and Brampton at least had enough vision to build these throughfares before the subdivisions were developed. This allows the major bus routes in Mississauga and Brampton to be much closer together than in Vaughan, so that is why they have much better transit service and ridership than Vaughan does, even though they are otherwise planned and developed the same way.

[nec209]

Interestingly enough newer areas of Vaughan (like much of the GTA) are based off of a modified grid system. The problem is, this system is only linked to the arterial roads at a few points. Additionally, there are little to no retail opportunities within these subdivisions.

Okay is it not called cosation roads? Well because most cosation roads are on a block system just like grid system problem is they are so spread out like 2KM or 3 KM and they build the subdivision in side with only a few points to the cosation road the problem is becuse of the lack of the cosation roads they cannot deal with the traffic on the road and they are so spread out.


http://img444.imageshack.us/img444/5629/777ml5.jpg

You see many of the cities in the Toronto area are like it a big block system but very spread out like 2 or 3 KM with the subdivision in side and only a few points going in or out the subdivision than the subdivision is like a maze.

Here is map to show how spread out it is.

http://img361.imageshack.us/img361/6017/888qu6.jpg


Both Markham and Richmond Hill have this cosation roads block road like the map above.

[Tony]

cosation? Do you mean Concession grid? As in Lot & Concessions?

[LordMandeep]

they suck trust me, its causes traffic jams in those exit points...

I am not lying, out in my area, there are about 1000 homes and there is only 2 exit points.

[Doady]

Okay is it not called cosation roads?

First of all, they are called concession roads. All suburbs in the GTA are built upon an existing grid of arterial roads.

Secondly, when Niwell talking about how the new subdivisons in Vaughan are laid out in a modified grid, he was referring to the local side streets, not the arterials.

What Niwell says about these side streets not having enough access to the major arterials is only partially true though. Pedestrians using these streets still have direct access to the arterial, even though the cars do not. In the short term, this is a very effective solution for encouraging transit use, but in the long term it limits the oppurtunities for redevelopment along the arterial.

[Epi]

I think it is a bit dangerous to completely lump all of Vaughan together. For instance, in the south-east corner of the city (aka Thornhill), there is the standard 2km grid that most of TORONTO is based on and is in fact the same streets north-south. Then inbetween these streets, at every 1km there are major roads as well, where retail and public buildings exist. For instance...Clark Ave. In fact, Thornhill is quite easily traversed by bike, which I'd say most kids have and most adults could have if they actually wanted to bike around.

It is in some of the newer areas where this breaks down completely, which is a huge shame.

[nec209]

cosation? Do you mean Concession grid? As in Lot & Concessions?
they suck trust me, its causes traffic jams in those exit points...

Okay I did not know what they are called.And yes that is now new urban city with not many exit points to the Concession.




First of all, they are called concession roads. All suburbs in the GTA are built upon an existing grid of arterial roads.

Too bad the concession roads are every 2KM or 3 KM.

Secondly, when Niwell talking about how the new subdivisons in Vaughan are laid out in a modified grid, he was referring to the local side streets, not the arterials.

You mean housing streets? And what cities in the GTA are doing that?

http://img88.imageshack.us/img88/7985/77uv2.jpg

http://img136.imageshack.us/img136/8098/88re5.jpg

What Niwell says about these side streets not having enough access to the major arterials is only partially true though. Pedestrians using these streets still have direct access to the arterial, even though the cars do not. In the short term, this is a very effective solution for encouraging transit use, but in the long term it limits the oppurtunities for redevelopment along the arterial.

But there still a lack of arterials and now many of the arterials have speeds of 60KM or 70KM not like before 50KM and many buildings are on the arterials and enough access poits.

[nec209]

Superblocks were popular during the early and mid-20th century, arising from modernist ideas in architecture and urban planning. A superblock is much larger than a traditional city block, with greater setback for buildings, and is typically bounded by widely spaced, high-speed, arterial or circulating routes rather than by local streets. Superblocks are generally associated with suburbs, planned cities, and the urban renewal of the mid-20th century; that is, in areas in which a street hierarchy has replaced the traditional grid. In a residential area of a suburb, the interior of the superblock is typically served by cul-de-sac roads.


Okay is this true or not?

[Tony]

Okay is this true or not?

Why would that not be true? What do YOU see?

The hierarchy of roads is: Local -> Collector -> Arterial -> Highway.

These are clearly visible in the aerial photos you showed earlier, which btw is a modified grid pattern. Compare that with some of the areas of Mississauga built in the 70s-80s where you'll see plentiful cul-de-sacs, deadworm streets and crescents galore: http://maps.google.ca/maps?ie=UTF8&oe=UTF-8&hl=en&q=Mississauga,+ON&z=15&ll=43.593229,-79.702764&spn=0.019302,0.061111&t=h&om=1

The above link shows utter crap. Vaughan at least has more straight roads which not only means better pedestrian routing, but also better transit servicability.

[Doady]

Why would that not be true? What do YOU see?

The hierarchy of roads is: Local -> Collector -> Arterial -> Highway.

These are clearly visible in the aerial photos you showed earlier, which btw is a modified grid pattern. Compare that with some of the areas of Mississauga built in the 70s-80s where you'll see plentiful cul-de-sacs, deadworm streets and crescents galore: http://maps.google.ca/maps?ie=UTF8&oe=UTF-8&hl=en&q=Mississauga,+ON&z=15&ll=43.593229,-79.702764&spn=0.019302,0.061111&t=h&om=1

The above link shows utter crap. Vaughan at least has more straight roads which not only means better pedestrian routing, but also better transit servicability.

Vaughan will never have as good transit service as Mississauga. It is just impossible the way the arterial and collector road system is designed.

Even in your example map of Mississauga, you can see Bristol Road, which is a major collector that Mississauga built entirely on its own to complement the existing arterial road system, and is now a core bus route. The city built many other such roads like Glen Erin, Rathburn, Courtneypark, Confederation, Matheson... Not only did Vaughan do nothing like this, but even some of their existing arterial roads like Langstaff and Kipling have been disrupted.

[nec209]

Vaughan will never have as good transit service as Mississauga. It is just impossible the way the arterial and collector road system is designed.


In Vaughan and Brampton there is lack of concession roads.I think what Vaughan is building now is more sub-concession roads.