[GreatTallNorth2]

I saw a discussion in SSC where some forumers were arguing about which city is the regional city for SW Ontario. What do you consider SouthWestern Ontario to be? Is it the 519 area code? Does it include Hamilton and Niagara? Does it include Toronto?

[Tony]

I saw a discussion in SSC where some forumers were arguing about which city is the regional city for SW Ontario. What do you consider SouthWestern Ontario to be? Is it the 519 area code? Does it include Hamilton and Niagara? Does it include Toronto?

I'm gonna take a crazy stab at it but I'll bet the fight was between the over-zealous K-W forumers and the rest of the Ontario forumers who would side with London.

[GreatTallNorth2]

You would be right.

[waterloowarrior]

I saw a discussion in SSC where some forumers were arguing about which city is the regional city for SW Ontario.
Isn't the answer sort of obvious? :notacrook:

[MolsonExport]

Wikipedia has an entry for Southwestern Ontario:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/c/cd/Westont.PNG

Southwestern Ontario
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Jump to: navigation, search
Southwestern Ontario is a region of the Canadian province of Ontario, centred on the city of London. Also known as the "Industrial Heartland" and "The Banana Belt of Canada", it extends north to south from the Bruce Peninsula on Lake Huron to the Lake Erie shoreline, and east to south-west roughly from Kitchener to Windsor. These three urban centres make up the majority of the population of 2,328,987 in 2001. Other significant towns and cities in the region are Chatham, Ingersoll, Owen Sound, Sarnia, St. Thomas, Goderich, Stratford, Tillsonburg and Woodstock. The Bruce Peninsula and Georgian Bay shoreline, including the Blue Mountains are also part of the Georgian Triangle. Some definitions reach eastward to include Brantford, Cambridge, Guelph or Orangeville, though recently the latter three cities and towns are also included in on the western side of the growing Greater Golden Horseshoe region and many of their residents commute into the Greater Toronto Area.

Southwestern Ontario constitutes the western portion of the original province, present-day southern Ontario, which was first settled as Upper Canada prior to 1840.

The region may also be referred to as Western Ontario, particularly in the names of institutions such as the University of Western Ontario. This term is falling into disuse, however. Western Ontario may also designate all the counties of southwestern Ontario except Essex, Kent, and Lambton – that is, the region of which London, Ontario is the central city. Western Ontario was so called because until Ontario expanded in 1912 to incorporate Northern Ontario it was the westernmost part of the most populated section of the province.

Southwestern Ontario is a prosperous agricultural region whose chief crops are tobacco, sweetcorn, soybean, winter wheat and tomatoes. Dairy and beef farming, breeding and training of standardbred horses and wine growing and production are also important industries. Its climate is among the mildest in Canada, although brief periods of winter can be severe, summers are hot and humid with a longer growing season than most of the country.

Much of Southwestern Ontario was part of the Talbot Settlement, and the region has benefited from the settlement's facilitation of agriculture and of trade in general. Its ecomony is heavily tied in with that of the midwestern United States, in particular the border state of Michigan. Auto manufacturing and parts, agriculture and hi-tech industries are key components of the region's economy. The region also provides important transportation routes for commercial trucking, railway and tanker shipping from Detroit-Windsor and Port Huron, Michigan-Sarnia linking Canada with major markets in the eastern and midwestern United States.


[edit] List of counties or divisions
Essex County
Chatham-Kent
Lambton County
Elgin County
Middlesex County
Huron County
Perth County
Bruce County
Grey County
Waterloo Region
Wellington County
Oxford County
Brant County
Norfolk County
Haldimand County

[caltrane74]

KW is closer in relationship to Toronto and Hamilton by way of Guelph/Milton.


Therefore the winner is London.

[SteelTown]

Because of Hamilton's central location it seems to always fall into different regions, depending on what you personally believe. I've seen it as Southwestern Ontario, Ontario Tourism has Hamilton as Southwestern, I've seen Hamilton as Niagara region before and commonly placed as Golden Horseshoe region as well.

But for sure Niagara isn't part of Southwestern Ontario, it's part of Niagara Region and Toronto is part of Greater Toronto Area definitely not Southwestern Ontario.

[Snark]

KW is closer in relationship to Toronto and Hamilton by way of Guelph/Milton.

Therefore the winner is London.



Be careful what you say there! I tried to say the same thing, backed up with a few stats concerning geography, etc., and pretty much got my head ripped off.

You state reality at your own peril.

BTW - The traditional "old" definition of southwestern Ontario has always been the peninsula that is surrounded by the Great Lakes, basically being the area to the west of a line describing the shortest distance between Georgian Bay and Lake Ontario (basically Wasaga beach to Toronto). It was a strictly a geographic definition. Over time in the 1970's, that definition changed to exclude the GTA and Golden Horseshoe from that same area, as that zone had become so different from the rest of the region. Because of that, the definition changed to become more of a socio-economic region than a geographic one. Now that said, I was talking with some planners the other day and one was suggesting that with the advent of the Greater Golden Horseshoe (GGH) urban planning and control zone, that the revised (if unofficial) definition of southwest Ontario is really anything west of the GGH zone - and would be considered London's sphere of influence, and the GGH would be Toronto's turf, so to speak.

[flar]

London is the capital of Southwestern Ontario, anyone who tries to say otherwise is wrong. Kitchener-Waterloo isn't even in Southwestern Ontario. Essex, Kent, Lambton, Elgin, Middlesex, Huron, Oxford and Perth--that is Southwestern Ontario. See my thread on Chatham for some reasons why:
http://forum.skyscraperpage.com/showthread.php?t=127183

[raisethehammer]

Banana Belt eh? Sounds hip.

[flar]

The banana belt is just essex and kent and a bit of Elgin along Lake Erie, it's noticably warmer there.

[LondnPlanr]

KW is closer in relationship to Toronto and Hamilton by way of Guelph/Milton.


Therefore the winner is London.

I've made the very same comment, as I believe it to be completely true. However, it is CLEAR, and I mean CRYSTAL CLEAR, that those from K-W do NOT want to be associated with the Toronto area (regardless of what the government says in Places to Grow or The GGH Growth Plan). I feel that there are quite a few in the K-W area that consider their 'neck-of-the-woods' to be it's very own, seperate entity. I argued that London is MUCH more independent than the K-W area, even stretching the I would consider K-W to be a rather powerful bedroom community to the Toronto area. I know that is a bit of a stretch, but I do know that K-W's proximity to Pearson airport has attracted residents to the Tri-City Area.

To answer the question of this thread, there is NO doubt that London is the centre of Southwestern Ontario, both geographically and economically. I would concede, however, that the economic 'stranglehold' on the SWO economy is being challenged health-ily by the K-W area.

[Blitz]

Kitchener is in southwestern Ontario but London is the regional centre.

[Jaborandi]

For what its worth, the last three firms that I have worked for in Toronto each had employees that commuted daily from K-W. None from London.

[upinottawa]

Just because K-W leans towards Toronto does not remove those cities from SWO. Windsor leans toward Detroit but that does not make Windsor any less a part of SWO.

As far as there being a capital of SWO, really that is pure nonsense. SWO is a loosely-defined geographical region in Ontario. It has no capital. Certainly certain portions of the "region" are more dependent on London, some on K-W, and others on Windsor. Certainly some towns are dependent on Leamington or Chatham (even on Goderich).

As far as a "regional centre" is concerned, do we mean a regional hub? London could be the hub purely because it is in the middle. That being said, to call K-W the regional centre is to ignore London and points west. To call London the regional centre is to ignore K-W and Windsor-Chatham. Of course, everyone forgets about Sarnia.

The better question is why do we need to annoint any city as the regional centre of SWO? Do people in certain cities in SWO really want that title? Does anyone outside SWO even care?

[arnold]

i always thought that it was obviously london as well.

IMO, K-W may be on the fringes of toronto's territiry, but its rapidly becoming more tightly knit into the golden horseshoe fabric.

[ssiguy]

Having lived in London and Strathroy{unfortunatly} I Never considered K/W part of SW Ontario.
Ive always considered it to Ox/Mid/Lam/Kent/Ess/Per/Hur/Grey/Bruce/Elgin.
I geuss because of that long 30km stretch of nothing on the 401 between Woodstock and K/W.

I think 30 years KW was part of S/W but now I think it is part of the Golden Horshew. Under gov of Ont site under demographics it is considered part of South Central Ont NOT S/W as is Brantford.

[upinottawa]

South Central Ontario is a new one.

[Blitz]

London is the regional centre, just look at the dominance of the London Free Press in the region. People in Windsor who need special care are still sent to London hospitals.

[upinottawa]

Blitz, who reads the London Free Press in Windsor? Leamington? K-W? Even Chatham or Sarnia? (the fact the paper has stunk since the Sun bought it a few years back aside).

As for the hospitals, it has been the political policy of the provincial government to overfund healthcare in London and neglect other cities in the region. If the provincial government discontinued this funding bias, there would be no reason for people from Windsor or K-W to head to London for certain medical procedures.

That being said, maybe London is the medical centre of the region. But then again, that could change with the political winds.

I don't see many other reasons why London would be a regional centre to the extent that people from Windsor or K-W would consider it so.

[flar]

Growing up in Wallaceburg, pretty much everyone read the London Free Press. Everyone went to London for various surgeries and medical tests or to see specialists. Everyone went to London for shopping (except back when the dollar was high, then we went to malls in suburban Detroit). Everyone went to London for school. No one went to Kitchener for anything really.
Actually a section of the LFP used to be called London and Southwestern Ontario, which they later changed to London and Region. The LFP always kept bureaus in Chatham, Sarnia, etc..

[MolsonExport]

London is the regional centre, just look at the dominance of the London Free Press in the region. People in Windsor who need special care are still sent to London hospitals.

You'd think with that dominance, it might actually be a better read. It is so terribly amateurish.

[MolsonExport]

London is right smack dab in the middle of SW Ontario. It is (for now) still the largest single population centre. It is most certainly not a bedroom community for Toronto, nor for Detroit. London hosts one of the country's top Universities. It has a crappy newspaper that 'dominates' the surrounding areas.

For better or worse, London is undoubtedly the dominant city in SWO.

[GreatTallNorth2]

John Labatt Centre is SW Ontario's main entertainment centre.

My main point in starting the thread though, was not a London vs. Kitchener battle, but to actually figure out what SW Ontario is. If the region could identify itself, SW Ontario could market itself as an encomic and tourism centre which is located in a very strategic area of North America. Our population is over 2 million people, but we seem to have little relevance in Canada. SW Ontario is bigger than six provinces and three territories, but there are just two tv stations represented by the whole region (achannel + CTV).

[upinottawa]

I don't think anyone would suggest that London is a bedroom community for any major city. That being said, K-W is not a bedroom community for Toronto nor is Windsor a bedroom community for Detroit.

I think if we want to be accurate concerning London's dominance in the region we should say that London dominates certain municipalities within SWO. Then we can also say that K-W dominates certain municipalities within the region as does Windsor, Chatham and Sarnia. Does London dominate (I hate that term, are we talking about media dominance, cultural dominance, shopping dominance?) more SWO municipalities than does K-W, Windsor, Sarnia or Chatham? Probably. But does that mean London (or any other city) "dominates" the region? Of course not. It would mean that city is predominate in a larger geographical area of SWO than any other city.

So, that being said: London is the predominate city within a larger geographical area of SWO than any other SWO city.

[upinottawa]

By the way, I am a proud UWO grad. That being said, the University of Waterloo is the best university in the region.

The John Labatt Centre is London's main entertainment centre. Let's face it, each of the Air Canada Centre, Roger's Centre, Comerica Park, Joe Louis Arena, and Ford Field may draw more people from more regions within SWO to events than does London's JLC (of course, I cannot substantiate that, but if look at Comerica Park, if even 3000 people from SWO attend each Tiger's game that is over 240,000 plus the numerous concerts and other events in that facility. How many K-W people attend Leafs or Jays games? Also, the JLC brings in decent B-list acts and major junior hockey. How can that complete with the NHL playoffs or the Superbowl?).

[flar]

You'd think with that dominance, it might actually be a better read. It is so terribly amateurish.

At one time it was an excellent newspaper, but that seems like a long time ago.

[Blitz]

I think it's safe to say London is the first-tier city in the region, Windsor and Kitchener are second-tier, and Sarnia and Chatham are third tier. This is purely due to location....London is right in the middle, Kitchener is too close to Toronto/Hamilton, and Windsor has only a tiny area to draw from because it's surrounded on 3 sides by the U.S.

[LondnPlanr]

By the way, I am a proud UWO grad. That being said, the University of Waterloo is the best university in the region.

The John Labatt Centre is London's main entertainment centre. Let's face it, each of the Air Canada Centre, Roger's Centre, Comerica Park, Joe Louis Arena, and Ford Field may draw more people from more regions within SWO to events than does London's JLC (of course, I cannot substantiate that, but if look at Comerica Park, if even 3000 people from SWO attend each Tiger's game that is over 240,000 plus the numerous concerts and other events in that facility. How many K-W people attend Leafs or Jays games? Also, the JLC brings in decent B-list acts and major junior hockey. How can that complete with the NHL playoffs or the Superbowl?).

The JLC is one of the world's most successful entertainment venues, period. I'm not too sure where to look up the stats, but the JLC is, I believe, the top 'performing' facility of its size in the world. Even when compared to other 'large' venues (GM Place in Vancouver, ACC in Toronto, etc.) the JLC is VERY successful.

While there are so-called 'B-List' acts that play here in London, don't forget the JLC also draws some of the BIGGEST names in the world, as well. In recent memory, those that I would categorize under the 'A-List' would be:

Metallica
Dixie Chicks
Sting
Shania Twain
Aerosmith (show was cancelled, but they were going to play!)
Green Day
Bob Dylan
Sheryl Crow
Bryan Adams

I can go on... those are hardly just 'B-List' acts.

[WaterlooInvestor]

Lots of things to point out for Waterloo Region (the list is endless on misinterpretations of my area):

Newsweek rated the University of Waterloo the 83rd top GLOBAL university. http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/14321230/site/newsweek/ UW has one of the largest mathematics faculties, and Co-op programs in THE WORLD. On a regular basis it wins in mathematics competitions with MIT, Stanford, etc.. In some years Microsoft (one of the world's most powerful companies) hires more graduates from the University of Waterloo than any other university in the world. Bill Gates, the worlds richest person, came to speak at the university in October 2005 (but according to some people nothing ever happen here? lol)The university is developing a Research and Technogoy Park, a school of pharmacy, the institute for quantum computing, and the school of nanotechnogy, etc... It has the top rated school of accountancy in the country. UW employes 3000+faculty and staff.

Due to the universities policy of allowing the creators to own their research, we have numerous tech companies in the area:
- Research in Motion.. $30billion market cap company -- WORLD famous "blackberry", used by the United States gov't, millions of other customers and has offices/sales around the world http://www.rim.net/
- Opentext $1.5 billion market cap company- largest independent company in Enterprise Content Management Solutions: has offices in the U.S., Europe, Australia, Asia, etc.. http://www.opentext.com/
- Descartes - transportation logistics software maker, offices around the world http://www.descartes.com/company/contact_us.html http://www.descartes.com/
- Comdev - satelitte maker, offices in california, china, united kingdom http://www.comdev.ca/index.html
-Sandvine - intelligent broadband management - listed on the tsx and on the AIM stock market in the U.K. http://www.sandvine.com/

Other tech companies include: Navtech, Christie Digital, Dalsa, Turbosonic, RDM, MKS; google and ibm both have offices here. Combined there are "380+ tech firms employing 26,000+ people" according to the Communitech Association (http://www.communitech.ca/tech_community/tech_statistics.shtml), they are the tech business group for the area. Communitech hosts regular events http://www.communitech.ca/events/event_list.aspx , such as a Tech Leadership Conference May 10 with Rick Mercer (comedian) as the guest speaker http://www.communitech.ca/special_events/

In other education info: Laurier employees hundreds of faculty and staff. So does
Conestoga College - which has been rated the #1 college in Ontario for the last 8 years.

Regardless of what outsiders think: These people work IN WATERLOO REGION. I repeat, they do not commute to Toronto (although i do love Toronto, i can touch on that later)

Our companies have a WORLD-WIDE FOCUS, with offices AROUND THE WORLD. (this is hardly a small town/commuter focused community) The co-founders of RIM are each billionaries, and have donated millions of dollars to create 2 research institutes in the city. One of their first employees is also a few hundred millionaire. This is WATERLOO money, not Toronto money driving growth here. As an added fact the University of Waterloo is only celebrating it's 50th anniversary this year - such a short time to have such an impressive list of accomplishments - I can't wait for the next 50 years :-)

[WaterlooInvestor]

In terms of a South-Western Ontario focus:

-Toyota Manufacturing which has 4000 employess at 2 plants in Waterloo Region, is opening up a 3rd plant in Woodstock (2000 employees). Their Canadian Manufacturing head office will remain in Waterloo Region. In the future I can imagine Woodstock looking more towards Waterloo than London.

- The University of Waterloo and the City of Stratford are in talks to open up a Liberal Arts Campus in that city. If plans go though, I can see Stratford also looking more towards Waterloo Region in the future.

In otherwords the Waterloo Region Zone of influence will be increasing.

CTV SOUTHWESTERN ONTARIO (some people should read that name again): located on King Street in Kitchener:
http://www.southwesternontario.ctv.ca/contactus.php?PHPSESSID=3879ce5e01da2fb3754cc0b499682e35

KPMG's Southwestern Ontario headquarters is in Waterloo. (190 employees). Deloitte's largest SWO office is in Kitchener.

Manulife's Canadian headquarters (~4000 employess), Sunlife/Clarica's canadian headquarters (~4000 employees)- both in Waterloo. (there are other insurance companies as well)

To give you an idea on Office Space, please look at the CB Richard Ellis Office Report - 4th Quarter 2006(http://www.cbre.ca/EN/Research/CanadianMarketViews.htm) It will show you that:

Office space in London: 5.3 million square feet
Vacency rate in London: 15.5%
Office space in Waterloo Region: 10.8 million square feet
Vacency rate in Waterloo Region: 6.9%

Waterloo Region has twice the office space. Like it or not, these are the facts. These office buildings employee people HERE IN WATERLOO REGION (not commuters) Also take a look at where Waterloo Region's Growth is coming from: http://www.statcan.ca/english/freepub/91-214-XIE/2006000/ct004_en.htm

When you look at the chart... you will see that:

1) yes Kitchener's intraprovincial growth is higher than London's, however it is not the overwhelming source of growth (ie. like Oshawa's)
2)In fact even if you remove our intraprovincial growth our overall growth rate is still higher than london's.
3) Our growth is higher because we lose less people to other provinces, we have a higher natural increase (our median age is 36.5 years compared to 38.1 for london: http://www.statcan.ca/english/freepu...00/t140_en.htm ) , and we have a higher level of international immigration.

This is NOT INDICATIVE of KW being a commuting suburb of Toronto. We DO NOT have GO Transit here. We ARE more advanced in building light rail transit in the region (AKA INTERNAL GROWTH) www.region.waterloo.on.ca/transitea than we are in a study for faster links to Toronto. (aka suburban commuter growth) UPDATE: KW HAS PROVINCIAL FUNDING FOR LRT (announced in the Budget) :cheers: all we need now are the feds.

[WaterlooInvestor]

As a quick note - i do LOVE Toronto, and I do go to Toronto a few times a year. Not because I can't work in KW, or buy a loft in KW, etc.. but because there are some things in Toronto that NO OTHER CITY IN ONTARIO HAS. Being only an hour away, I would be stupid not to take advantage of what Toronto has to offer every now and then.

Examples:
1) Being gay, I can have a fun time at Club Ren in Kitchener, or at the Tri-Pride in June, or the Waterloo Queer Film Festival. However Toronto has a HUGE gay village, and over a million people attend Toronto's Pride. Can any other city in Ontario, or for that matter Canada compare? NO. Toronto can boast being one of the top gay areas in THE WORLD (Hamilton, St.Catharines, Kitchener, London, or Windsor just can't say the same thing)
2) KW has it's own home show, but can anything else in the province compare to the Toronto Home Show?
3) Limeridge, White Oaks or Fairview Park malls are nothing compared to the Eaton Centre, Yorkdale, or the Bloor Street/Yorkville area. Why wouldn't i go there once a year or two? (also on shopping I do go to Buffalo's Walden Galleria every other year to check out U.S. merchandise)
4) Arts: Although I can see RENT at Kitchener's Centre in the Square, only in Toronto can i see Mariah Carey (last August) or Christina Aguilera (this Sunday- only 2 more days!)
5) Toronto Stock Exchange- it's only a Toronto experience, or when BNN (formerly ROBtv) has a live segment week like it did last September at BCE Place. Give me a reason why an investor from the rest of SWO wouldn't attend?

This isn't an indication that KW has nothing, or that to do anything I have to go to Toronto. It's just what i would call smart, and realizing that KW is not the only city in the world. There is an awesome 5million+ metropolis only an hour away, and that there are things to do in Toronto that you can't do/find anywhere else in Ontario /Canada and even the world (dining at the CN Tower)

There are even Torontonians that visit KW for our university and tech companies, or Stratford for the Shakespeare Festival (note- travelling to Stratford would also mean using the 'flyover') If this happens to mean that the highways are busier on the KW-Toronto 401 corridor, then so be it - the benefits are worth it.

[Snark]

:previous: :previous: :previous:

Engage with this guy, and you do so at your peril. Nothing you can say will change anything in his mind. He is a young man who wants to debate - endlessly.

He is misinformed and uses statistics endlessly out of context. He will not rest 'till all people acknowledge that Waterloo Region is, and has always been, the greatest place in SW Ontario, or even possibly the Earth.

But just one example:
Regardless of what outsiders think: These people work IN WATERLOO REGION. I repeat, they do not commute to Toronto

Many people do obviously work in Waterloo Region, but it does not negate fact in the year 2000, 8,000 Waterloo Region residents commuted to work in the GTA every day. I would not be surprised to see that number jump to 10 or 12 thousand or even more with the release of the new census data. It is very, very obvious that he has never driven the 401 between Townline Road and Highway 25 at about 7 in the morning. But, hey, that doesn't matter, does it? The logic presented here is that because people live and work in Waterloo Region, it is living proof that a very large number of it's residents are not actually employed in Toronto.

.... and the assult of such "facts" and "logic" will never end. Don't feed the trolls....

[MolsonExport]

Lots of things to point out for Waterloo Region (the list is endless on misinterpretations of my area):

Newsweek rated the University of Waterloo the 83rd top GLOBAL university. http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/14321230/site/newsweek/ UW has one of the largest mathematics faculties, and Co-op programs in THE WORLD. On a regular basis it wins in mathematics competitions with MIT, Stanford, etc.. In some years Microsoft (one of the world's most powerful companies) hires more graduates from the University of Waterloo than any other university in the world. Bill Gates, the worlds richest person, came to speak at the university in October 2005 (but according to some people nothing ever happen here? lol)The university is developing a Research and Technogoy Park, a school of pharmacy, the institute for quantum computing, and the school of nanotechnogy, etc... It has the top rated school of accountancy in the country. UW employes 3000+faculty and staff.

Due to the universities policy of allowing the creators to own their research, we have numerous tech companies in the area:
- Research in Motion.. $30billion market cap company -- WORLD famous "blackberry", used by the United States gov't, millions of other customers and has offices/sales around the world http://www.rim.net/
- Opentext $1.5 billion market cap company- largest independent company in Enterprise Content Management Solutions: has offices in the U.S., Europe, Australia, Asia, etc.. http://www.opentext.com/
- Descartes - transportation logistics software maker, offices around the world http://www.descartes.com/company/contact_us.html http://www.descartes.com/
- Comdev - satelitte maker, offices in california, china, united kingdom http://www.comdev.ca/index.html
-Sandvine - intelligent broadband management - listed on the tsx and on the AIM stock market in the U.K. http://www.sandvine.com/

Other tech companies include: Navtech, Christie Digital, Dalsa, Turbosonic, RDM, MKS; google and ibm both have offices here. Combined there are "380+ tech firms employing 26,000+ people" according to the Communitech Association (http://www.communitech.ca/tech_community/tech_statistics.shtml), they are the tech business group for the area. Communitech hosts regular events http://www.communitech.ca/events/event_list.aspx , such as a Tech Leadership Conference May 10 with Rick Mercer (comedian) as the guest speaker http://www.communitech.ca/special_events/

In other education info: Laurier employees hundreds of faculty and staff. So does
Conestoga College - which has been rated the #1 college in Ontario for the last 8 years.

Regardless of what outsiders think: These people work IN WATERLOO REGION. I repeat, they do not commute to Toronto (although i do love Toronto, i can touch on that later)

Our companies have a WORLD-WIDE FOCUS, with offices AROUND THE WORLD. (this is hardly a small town/commuter focused community) The co-founders of RIM are each billionaries, and have donated millions of dollars to create 2 research institutes in the city. One of their first employees is also a few hundred millionaire. This is WATERLOO money, not Toronto money driving growth here. As an added fact the University of Waterloo is only celebrating it's 50th anniversary this year - such a short time to have such an impressive list of accomplishments - I can't wait for the next 50 years :-)


Ok, ok, ok, ok....ad nauseum. Why not, then, go and edit the entry on Wikipedia for Southwestern Ontario?

[GreatTallNorth2]

:previous: :previous: :previous:

Engage with this guy, and you do so at your peril. Nothing you can say will change anything in his mind. He is a young man who wants to debate - endlessly.



...Maybe this is his Waterloo.

[WaterlooInvestor]

Snark: I never said Waterloo Region was always the best place to live in SWO. 10 years ago, it probably would have been London, but things are changing quickly here.

Yes I have admitted that there are people from Waterloo Region that commute to Toronto for work, but the people from London want to make this seem to be an overwhelming factor in our growt- when it's clearly not. Let's use your figure of 8,000 commuters-- , that equates to less than 4% of our employment base ... hardly a number to show we are dependent on Toronto for jobs.

You are clearly the one that doesnt want to acknowledge facts- such as the superior reputation of the University of Waterloo. or why exactly a commuting suburb has TWICE the office space as London. Also like I said, Waterloo just received provincial funding for Light Rail Transit. Do you acknowledge this fact? Will you stop twisting the less than 4% employed in Toronto and making it seem like 50-60-70%?

I think you're just afraid of some healthy debate, from someone that is well informed of the strengths of my area. I just won't listen to "flyover" = commutter suburb nonsense- cause I know it's false

MolsenExport: that's a good idea

[Waterlooson]

I think it's safe to say London is the first-tier city in the region, Windsor and Kitchener are second-tier, and Sarnia and Chatham are third tier. This is purely due to location....London is right in the middle, Kitchener is too close to Toronto/Hamilton, and Windsor has only a tiny area to draw from because it's surrounded on 3 sides by the U.S.

Maybe by your entirely subject opinion.... but if you evalute the facts, K/W is not second-tier in Ontario relative to London. Midwestern Ontario (ie. places like Walkerton and Hanover) are strongly dominated by K/W, and not by London.

[Waterlooson]

:previous: :previous: :previous:

Engage with this guy, and you do so at your peril. Nothing you can say will change anything in his mind. He is a young man who wants to debate - endlessly.

He is misinformed and uses statistics endlessly out of context. ....

Well, at least you have one thing in common with him.:haha:

It's asinine to continue to argue that K/W is some type of bedroom community of Toronto when only 8,000 people - out of a work force of 343,000 plus - commute to Toronto. You also forgot to mention that people from Toronto commute to K/W. With the huge growth of K/W's high tech industries, it wouldn't surprise me if the number of commuters to K/W from Toronto is growing much faster than the reverse.

Doesn't Stats Canada define the criterion for what is essentially bedroom community status such that 25% (or more) of the community's work force must commute to the bigger centre? K/W has nowhere near 86,000 commuters traveling to Toronto, so why try to make the argument about bedroom community status?

K/W may have a stronger link to Canada's most important city than far-flung London .... so what?

... and by the way, Woodstock may have been in London's shadow a few years ago.... but now with the arrival of Toyota, Woodstock is clearly in the Region of Waterloo's shadow - not London's. The Toyota plant will be managed out of the Waterloo Region plant. London is clearly losing economic influence to Waterloo Region which has been growing much more rapidly for decades.... and now that's really beginning to show.

[flar]

Maybe by your entirely subject opinion.... but if you evalute the facts, K/W is not second-tier in Ontario relative to London. Midwestern Ontario (ie. places like Walkerton and Hanover) are strongly dominated by K/W, and not by London.

Getting back to the thread topic, I would agree with this, K-W is a major centre in Midwestern Ontario, but it's not much associated with Southwestern Ontario.
Places like Paris, Fergus, Elora, etc also gravitate toward K-W. These places have a different feel than places in Southwestern Ontario.

[WaterlooInvestor]

Exactly Waterlooson. If after much debate on the other skyscraper site, the best number the "KW = Commuting Suburb of Toronto" lobby have is : 8,000 workers commuting (a very small single-digit percentage of our population) , it is safe to say that they are the ones who are "misinformed and uses statistics endlessly out of context" (to quote Snark directly)

I think he's just angry that Waterloo Region received both: Light Rail Transit funding from the province yesterday, and today got $250 million from the province to upgrade highway 7 between Kitchener and Guelph to a 4 lane expressway.

Excellent point on Woodstock, but don't forget about Stratford with the new UW liberal arts campus proposal, or do u already consider them part of KW's sphere of influence given the superior transportation link (highway 7/8) between the areas?

[Waterlooson]

Getting back to the thread topic, I would agree with this, K-W is a major centre in Midwestern Ontario, but it's not much associated with Southwestern Ontario.
Places like Paris, Fergus, Elora, etc also gravitate toward K-W. These places have a different feel than places in Southwestern Ontario.

... but Woodstock certainly is a part of southwestern Ontario (K/W is essentially on the fringe of southwestern Ontario) and K/W very heavily dominates the economy of Woodstock because of the presence of Toyota (Godzilla) and all the companies that are associated with Toyota that are moving into Woodstock. The day to day operations of the Toyota plant in Woodstock will be run from Waterloo Region. The London media likes to purport that the Toyota plant was a huge coup for London, when in fact it was mainly a huge coup for Waterloo Region in addition to Woodstock itself. People from London applying for jobs at the new Woodstock plant have already been told that they may end up working in the Cambridge plant because the Woodstock plant will be strictly ancillary to the Cambridge plant (with its 4,500 plus workforce). In other words, you can't apply to work specifically for Toyota in Woodstock.... just for Toyota. Toyota will stick you wherever they need you. Some Londoners will have a long commute to Cambridge.

Bottom line... Waterloo Region has virtually ripped Woodstock out of London's sphere of influence and into its own....now that's power! :worship:

A place like Kincardine is heavily influenced both by London and K/W.... that one is pretty much a tie. K/W would more strongly influence Stratford however.

[Waterlooson]

Ok, ok, ok, ok....ad nauseum. Why not, then, go and edit the entry on Wikipedia for Southwestern Ontario?

That entry already includes K/W as part of "southwestern Ontario". Perhaps you need to edit the entry on Wikipedia for southwestern Ontario and for Kitchener which reads: "Kitchener [1], with neighbouring Waterloo and Cambridge form a tightly-integrated metro area within the larger Region of Waterloo [2] in Southwestern Ontario.

http://wikitravel.org/en/Kitchener

[FazDeH]

To be fair my opinion is that proximity to larger cities does spur the growth of 2 of the 3 of the biggest cities in SWO. Windsor and KW are both effected by their close neighbors and business + population will be effected due to that fact. Theres no shame in it. Its actually a benifit. So those people who take offence by the fact that they are linked to those larger metro areas are silly. London is directly in the middle of the region and is still the largest city, however KW will have a bigger population soon if the recent growth there is any indication of the future. One thing that may not be considered here is that a large area relies on Londons medical and accademic facilities. From Godrich to Sarnia to Chatam Woodstock, all together thats several hundred thousand people are dependent to some degree on London. Thats why its my belief that it is the "unoffical" capital of the region

[mariokarter]

Jeez, don't you guys no anything. Toronto is southWestCentralEast Ontario. London is in SouthSouthWestSouth Ontario and is the main city in its region, which doesn't include waterloo (SouthishWesternly Ontario). And then theres niagra, which is just niagra.

Seriously...its a symantic argument about imaginary lines that don't matter, your never going to be able to win...

[Waterlooson]

^^^ Where the hell did you say "Niagra" was? I've never heard of that place.;)

[koops65]

Over the decades that I've lived in KW it's become obvious that it is growing faster than London, and its not a coincidence that KW is 100 km closer to Toronto than London is. Sure London is geographically in the center of Southwestern Ontario, but if the trend continues, KW will become more and more dominant over the area. (Until it becomes swallowed up by the GTA...lol)

[flar]

People from Chatham and Sarnia areas won't be going to Kitchener for anything since they would have to pass London to get there, so I don't see K-W's dominance growing, even if the city itself is growing like a mad weed.

[Waterlooson]

People from Chatham and Sarnia areas won't be going to Kitchener for anything since they would have to pass London to get there, so I don't see K-W's dominance growing, even if the city itself is growing like a mad weed.

Is that so? Where will they go in London to see these acts?

http://www.perimeterinstitute.ca/en/Events/Event_Horizons/2006_Detail/

... or where does one go in London to take in these free lectures (500-600 people in attendance)?

http://www.perimeterinstitute.ca/en/Outreach/General_Public/Public_Lectures/

http://www.perimeterinstitute.ca/en/Outreach/General_Public/View_Public_Lectures/

K/W's dominance in certain fields goes way beyond Sarnia... its influence is now world-wide. Even the security of the United States is heavily dependent on Waterloo Region's technology. Didn't know that did ya? Well, it's true.

BTW, did I mention that lots of Londoners will soon be commuting to work in Waterloo Region .... for Toyota?

[flar]

If the acts don't come to London, people from Sarnia will go to Detroit to see them. Few of them are interested in hearing lectures. Face it, K-W is not a destination for people living west of London. Did you ever consider the new Toyota plant's location might have more to do with easy access to the US along 401 and 403, and easy access to Hamilton's port (largest Canadian port on the Great Lakes) and Hamilton's airport (largest cargo airport in Canada).

[Waterlooson]

If the acts don't come to London, people from Sarnia will go to Detroit to see them. Few of them are interested in hearing lectures. Face it, K-W is not a destination for people living west of London. Did you ever consider the new Toyota plant's location might have more to do with easy access to the US along 401 and 403, and easy access to Hamilton's port (largest Canadian port on the Great Lakes) and Hamilton's airport (largest cargo airport in Canada).

Regarding Toyota, easy access to the US, 401 and 403 were important considerations, but to "reduce risk" Toyota wanted the 2nd Canadian plant to be located close to its primary plant in Cambridge... Woodstock had the available industrial land which is becoming a scarce commodity in Waterloo Region... and the cost of that industrial land (Woodstock) was/is far cheaper than what it would have cost in Waterloo Region. I recently read that industrial land in the Region of Waterloo is worth triple of that in the London area..... so by locating in Woodstock, Toyota is getting the best of both regions.... cheap land....good highway and rail connections.... close to the steel mills of Hamilton... hundreds of "team leaders" from their plant in Cambridge will be available for transfer to the Woodstock plant temporarily to get it up and running quickly with high quality output.... Toyota wants to keep its operations lean and mean so the new Woodstock plant will be managed from the Cambridge plant. I'll bet that within 5 years, Toyota plus all the other Toyota-associated companies that are locating in Woodstock will employ around 4,000 - that's huge for a city that small.

My nephew works at the Toyota plant in Cambridge... in 2005 he was earning $34/hr.... and that's just working on the assembly line. Toyota is about to transform Woodstock in a huge way.... and a big reason Toyota is making this investment is because the Cambridge plant has been so successful. BTW, did you know that Cambridge is the only place in the world - outside of Japan - where Toyota has enough faith/trust in the workforce to build a Lexus model?

Oh, and Hamilton has the largest integrated courier airport in Canada.... Toronto has the largest cargo airport in Canada - not Hamilton.... also the Toyota plant in Cambridge is considerably closer to Hamilton than its new plant in Woodstock.... the reason they didn't locate the 2nd plant in Cambridge is lack of available serviced industrial land.

[WaterlooInvestor]

Where is london's Centre in the Square? http://centre-square.com/ or Centre for International Governance Innovation? http://www.cigionline.org/cigi/.calendar , Theatre and Company, Waterloo Entertainment Centre, The Registry Theatre, etc.. London's the capital for "cool" entertainment, but KW is the capital for "sophisticated" entertainment -- the plays (RENT), opera, symphony, Perimeter artists from around the world, public lectures, etc...

Flar, people from SWO already look to Waterloo Region for certain areas of their lives. What happens when you watch American or Canaidan Idol? Dancing with the Stars? Nip/Tuck? CTV News? or anything else on CTV? -- guess what... you're watching CTV Southwestern Ontario, based in KITCHENER. Ever heard of Stantec? They're a large planning, engineering, and architecture firm, headquarters in Edmonton-- but their Southwestern Ontario regional office is in Kitchener. Waterlooson has made great points about Toyota (which is poised to leap over GM as the world's largest auto maker very soon)

The vast majority of Waterloo Region's growth is due to INTERNAL reasons. The University of Waterloo grew out of Waterloo in only the past 50 years to become a World University. As great as the University of Toronto is (it's a world university as well), UW is NOT a satelitte campus of U of T. This might come as a shock to some Londoner's, but UW is it's own independent institution - created in Waterloo, for Waterloo - with a global focus on mathematics/computer sciences, and in the future nanotechnogy, etc.. UW is creating Waterloo-based spin-off companies- these companies are major reason why Waterloo Region has DOUBLE the office space than London. They provide high-paying jobs that have significance to world affairs - ie. the PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA uses a Blackberry-- MADE IN WATERLOO.

People like FazDeH stop trying to insinuate that KW's growth is higher than other areas, just because it is closer to Toronto -- you are spreading infactual information. Hamilton is half the distance to Toronto, yet it's CMA growth was 4.6% in the census, compared to 8.9% for Kitchener's CMA - if I went by your false logic, shouldn't Hamilton be growing faster than KW? It's half the commute.

If you are looking for the root cause to explain why KW's growth rate is higher than London's - it's because the University of Waterloo is 84th on the list of Global Universities, joining other institutions on the list such as: University of Toronto, MIT, Stanford, Yale, Oxford, and Harvard. The University of Western Ontario just isn't on the list. http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/14321230/site/newsweek/

[Waterlooson]

Call it the Waterloo Way. It's a cultural and economic model that provides a beacon as Canada enters a new age of
embattled manufacturing accompanied by massive investments in energy. It's the blueprint for how other
communities can become economic warriors in the global battle for jobs and growth. It holds the key for Canada's
economic survival and perhaps dominance..... It's vital that other parts of the country pay attention to the successes in this community of about half a million
people, adds Tom Jenkins, chairman and chief strategy officer of Open Text Corp., one of the leading high-tech
companies in the region....

http://64.233.167.104/search?q=cache:nKP0W66WG1cJ:www.region.waterloo.on.ca/web/region.nsf/DocID/7AAF84A74A601F2C8525715D005C911F/%24file/Globe%2520Article.pdf%3Fopenelement+Blueprint+for+Canada%27s+economic+survival&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=6


Waterloo Region's experience is a lesson to the rest of the country.... its influence is major.

[Waterlooson]

Waterloo named one of the world's Top Seven Intelligent Communities....Waterloo is the only Canadian city on this prestigious list....


http://newsrelease.uwaterloo.ca/news.php?id=4671


"ICF Executive Director Louis Zacharilla described Waterloo as "the almost perfect intelligent community," saying the city's vibrant digital age economy is a model community that offers lessons to the rest of the world."

Waterloo's nomination credits several organizations that include the universities, hospitals, libraries and schools as well as companies such as RIM, Open Text, Sybase, iAnywhere and Manulife that export their products, technology and services around the world. It also notes the Perimeter Institute for Theoretical Physics, Centre for International Governance Innovation, UW's Institute for Quantum Computing, UW's Research and Technology Park, and the presence of Communitech and Canada's Technology Triangle as being further reflections of leadership as an intelligent community.


.... and you thought K/W wasn't very influential. Ha, London is small potatoes. ;)

The Perimeter Institute for Theoretical Physics:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v311/ocean10/63849-40199.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v311/ocean10/800px-Perimeter_Institute.jpg

[WaterlooInvestor]

I'd love to direct everyone's attention to the Niagara Falls/Niagara Region thread. http://forum.skyscraperpage.com/showthread.php?t=113507&page=12 Page #12, Post #285 It's about how they are starting a new prosperity council in the St.Catharines area, and how they looked to Waterloo for the vision. In the bottom half, i quote:

"McMullan got the prosperity council idea from a similar program started in Waterloo about 10 years ago.

McMullan said that community's council has had success attracting new businesses, particularly in the technology sector. "

It's funny to hear other people say Waterloo has no influence, at the same time when other cities in our area are trying to emulate our success. :haha:

[Waterlooson]

I'd love to direct everyone's attention to the Niagara Falls/Niagara Region thread. Page #12, Post #285 It's about how they are starting a new prosperity council in the St.Catharines area, and how they looked to Waterloo for the vision. In the bottom half, i quote:

"McMullan got the prosperity council idea from a similar program started in Waterloo about 10 years ago.

McMullan said that community's council has had success attracting new businesses, particularly in the technology sector. "

It's funny to hear other people say Waterloo has no influence, at the same time when other cities in our area are trying to emulate our success. :haha:

From some of the posts on this thread, I can see how Kitchener-Waterloo was voted the community they knew least about in Canada, can't you? :jester:

http://forum.skyscraperpage.com/showthread.php?t=127063

I mean people know more about Charlottetown? Jeeze!
Of course, that doesn't stop them from making uninformed comments about the community they know least about. ;)

[jeremy_haak]

Having lived in different parts of Southwestern Ontario over my life, I can attest to the fact that no one city has a stranglehold on "capital" of SW Ont. For those people touting the success of Waterloo, international success is great, and it has a lot of it, but it doesn't make it the centre of a region.

I think that the highway network has a huge influence on how connected specific communities are to specific cities. London connects well with communities along the Lake Huron shoreline with Hwy 4/21 and you see that with family/business ties. Hwy 6 is the lifeline of Grey/Bruce/Wellington Counties and it reflects on the people as well. Working in a doctor's office in Wiarton, from what I have seen, family ties are much much stronger toward KW/Guelph than to London where there is hardly a connection at all. (The real capital of that part of SW Ont is Owen Sound, but its influence doesn't extend far outside of Grey and Bruce Counties.)

Another interesting indicator (I think anyway) is to examine the three major beach areas in the province. I know less about Grand Bend, but I suspect it attracts mostly folks from London. Being less than 15min from Sauble Beach, I know that most of the vacationers come from KW/Guelph/Hamilton. And Wasaga Beach goes to Toronto ofc. Notice any connection with the highways there? Easy access builds strong ties.

As a few people have already shown, KW does provide services in keeping with a regional centre; however, is that in place of London? Hardly. Once again, working in a doctor's office, almost all referrals to specialists outside of Owen Sound are to London expect for cardiac care which goes to KW and some occassional cases to Barrie, Hamilton or Toronto. Media is clearly split between the two cities with CFPL and CKCO and the Record and Free Press (while the Free Press dominates in some areas, once again, along Hwy 6 and surrounding areas, the Record clearly dominates, I'm not sure you could even pick up a Free Press in some areas). Entertainment? I'd say that it probably favours London to a degree in so much that KW is much closer to Hamilton and Toronto and so tends to lose out on larger concerts. Business and insurance services seem to be focused on KW, but I suspect that London still provides those same services to its main service area.

I guess that if you think about it, SW Ontario is kind of bifurcated between the two cities.

[kool maudit]

there is an accent southwestern ontarians have - very unique.

[upinottawa]

Jeremy, I agree with a lot of what you say, but you are forgetting the significant influence that Windsor has on the southern-most parts of SWO.

[Blitz]

^ Kool Maudit, that's somewhat true...it gets stronger the further south you go. When I moved to London after growing up in Windsor, I thought people in London had accents because they sounded more 'Canadian' than what I was used to.

And yes, we're forgetting that Windsor has the influence on everything west of Chatham (this region is sometimes referred to as the extreme southwest).

[softee]

If Guelph is considered to be within Southwestern Ontario, then I would say that it is the most attractive and interesting as well as the most liberal and hip city in that part of Ontario - otherwise, it would be Stratford. I find these two small cities to be highly sophisticated and forward thinking for their size.

[Blitz]

I'd agree with that, the region is pretty conservative otherwise.

[softee]

^ It certainly is, I know that when I visit my relatives in Wallaceburg it sometimes feels like I've entered into another world with a different way of thinking, and they totally have that distinct Midwestern drawl (or is it a twang?) in their accents too.

[GreatTallNorth2]

After reading some of Waterlooson's posts, I want to make it clear that I belived that K/W is probably more important that New York, London, UK and Paris combined.

All hail Kitchenerwaterloocambridgebresleaustjacobsland!:worship:

[Waterlooson]

Having lived in different parts of Southwestern Ontario over my life, I can attest to the fact that no one city has a stranglehold on "capital" of SW Ont. For those people touting the success of Waterloo, international success is great, and it has a lot of it, but it doesn't make it the centre of a region.

I think that the highway network has a huge influence on how connected specific communities are to specific cities. London connects well with communities along the Lake Huron shoreline with Hwy 4/21 and you see that with family/business ties. Hwy 6 is the lifeline of Grey/Bruce/Wellington Counties and it reflects on the people as well. Working in a doctor's office in Wiarton, from what I have seen, family ties are much much stronger toward KW/Guelph than to London where there is hardly a connection at all. (The real capital of that part of SW Ont is Owen Sound, but its influence doesn't extend far outside of Grey and Bruce Counties.)

Another interesting indicator (I think anyway) is to examine the three major beach areas in the province. I know less about Grand Bend, but I suspect it attracts mostly folks from London. Being less than 15min from Sauble Beach, I know that most of the vacationers come from KW/Guelph/Hamilton. And Wasaga Beach goes to Toronto ofc. Notice any connection with the highways there? Easy access builds strong ties.

As a few people have already shown, KW does provide services in keeping with a regional centre; however, is that in place of London? Hardly. Once again, working in a doctor's office, almost all referrals to specialists outside of Owen Sound are to London expect for cardiac care which goes to KW and some occassional cases to Barrie, Hamilton or Toronto. Media is clearly split between the two cities with CFPL and CKCO and the Record and Free Press (while the Free Press dominates in some areas, once again, along Hwy 6 and surrounding areas, the Record clearly dominates, I'm not sure you could even pick up a Free Press in some areas). Entertainment? I'd say that it probably favours London to a degree in so much that KW is much closer to Hamilton and Toronto and so tends to lose out on larger concerts. Business and insurance services seem to be focused on KW, but I suspect that London still provides those same services to its main service area.

I guess that if you think about it, SW Ontario is kind of bifurcated between the two cities.

Lots and lots of great points in that.

K/W's international success has enabled its economy to boom and population to grow, both of which certainly has helped to make K/W a regional centre.

Your point regarding highway connectivity was particularly spot on, but I would say that Hanover and Walkerton are more connected with K/W than with Owen Sound... I was raised in Waterloo and graduated from UW and our family has owned a cottage near Hanover for over 40 years.

With respect to healthcare services, I have to agree that in relative strength, London outdoes K/W.... for its population this is a weak point for K/W.... my mother (who lives in Waterloo) gets referred to Hamilton for specialist care.

[Waterlooson]

After reading some of Waterlooson's posts, I want to make it clear that I belived that K/W is probably more important that New York, London, UK and Paris combined.

All hail Kitchenerwaterloocambridgebresleaustjacobsland!:worship:

In the field of loop quantum gravity it is! :notacrook:

Here's a brief description of it:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Loop_quantum_gravity


;)

[koops65]

I love your sarcasm GreatTallNorth2!

[Waterlooson]

I love your sarcasm GreatTallNorth2!

I thought he was being more envious than sarcastic. :D

... and I forgot to say that K/W is more important than NY, London and Paris in wireless communciations technology and applied cryptographic research as well... that's the reason why the US Government and military use Waterloo's elliptic curve cryptograhy to protect its most critical secrets. :)

Read it and weep: http://www.techtriangle.com/viewnews.cfm?newsid=314

This is what happens when you happen to have the world's largest faculty of mathematics - at the University of Waterloo.

It's hard to be modest when you're this great! ;)

[Waterlooson]

The economic vitality of a city affects is population growth and importance as a regional centre for providing jobs and services. In this regard, London is being superseded by Waterloo Region as the regional centre for communities that lie midway been the two centres - as in cities like Stratford and Woodstock.

Don't just take my word for it, this is was the London Economic Development Corporation has to say:

"London still lags behind other communities of comparable size and stature across a range of economic development measures. More importantly, London trails other communities in the development of its knowledge-based
economy, which many experts deem to be the key to any community’s long-term sustainability in
an increasingly competitive, value-driven world. Outsiders continue to perceive London as a
comparatively lethargic business community relative to such North American high growth hotbeds
as Kitchener-Waterloo, Ottawa, Raleigh, Minneapolis or San Diego...... In the early 1990’s, London began experiencing a slow but steady erosion of its regional power and its economic base..... The latest edition of the Metro Monitor currently ranks London 19th out of 25 Canadian Municipalities well behind Kitchener, which ranks number 1"


http://www.london.ca/Council/Reports/LondonsNextEconomy.pdf

[MolsonExport]

this has degenerated into a vs. thread.

[Waterlooson]

^^^ It took you this long to understand that? I realized that from the second post....

[upinottawa]

To save this thread: in your opinion what are the positives about living or visiting SWO?

[Waterlooson]

To save this thread: in your opinion what are the positives about living or visiting SWO?

Actually, SWO is one of my favorite parts of the country. London, in particular, is a rather attractive city. It has the advantage of being close to the beach "resorts" on both Lake Erie (Port Stanley and Port Dover) and Lake Huron (Grand Bend). I doubt that many Canadians living in other provinces realize just how beautiful these beaches are. This is Grand Bend:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v221/ocean20/grandbend05.jpg

The countryside north of Waterloo is some of the prettiest in the country:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v221/ocean20/Waterloo-1.jpg

The farmers' market at St. Jacobs is arguably the best in the country:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v221/ocean20/St_Jacobs_Market.jpg

[upinottawa]

My inlaws have a cottage on the lake in Bayfield. They love the sunsets.

Having grown up in Windsor-Essex, I now recognize how distinct that area of southern Ontario is since Detroit has a substantially larger influence day to day than does Toronto. A Leafs or Jays fan in Windsor is more likely to watch those teams play in Detroit than to head up to Toronto.

Also, Point Pelee National Park is remarkable for the number of species of plants and animals that live in the park that cannot live anywhere else in Canada.

Who does not love the Stratford Festival?

[WHISTLERINMUSKOKA]

"Actually, SWO is one of my favorite parts of the country."

and: "The countryside north of Waterloo is some of the prettiest in the country"

and :"The farmers' market at St. Jacobs is arguably the best in the country"

Dude, you need to travel more. I find the scenery in Southwestern Ontario is arguably (except for the beaches and the areas up around Tobermory) some of the most boring in the province. The drive from Milton down to Windsor is such a snoozer.

And people should never use the term best in the country unless they can back it up. You should say " My favorite" or "IMO" You can't tell people what is and what is not the best when it comes to choice.

Some places nation wide you should checkout before you make comments like that again. I'm not saying they're the best, but In My Opinion they are much better.

Quebec Country Side
http://farm1.static.flickr.com/98/261992969_185a1a45aa_b.jpg

P.E.I Beaches
http://farm1.static.flickr.com/29/102438640_d78fc20892_b.jpg

Halifax Farmers Market
http://farm1.static.flickr.com/61/211891959_1fbb2f075c_b.jpg

[upinottawa]

^ Waterlooson's comments are more nuanced than what you give him credit. He does say "some of the prettiest" and "arguably the best". I take this to be his personal opinion.

Quebec and Atlantic Canada do have a lot to offer (the Halifax market is an outstanding place to spend a Saturday morning -- too bad it is only open Saturday mornings, and the red sand on PEI is beautiful), however we are discussing SWO on this thread. As long as we don't start discussing SWO's best mountain range, we should be okay. :)

[Blitz]

SWO is scenic just because of its distinct flatness, that's partly why it's the richest farmland in the country.

I love SWO and am looking forward to moving back there in September...and will likely be spending the rest of my life there. I like the laidback and slow-paced lifestyle, and the conservative nature fits me nicely. I would personally self-destruct if I had to live in a place like Toronto.

[WHISTLERINMUSKOKA]

Yikes, makes me wonder why you even bother coming on a site called skyscraperpage.com.

[Waterlooson]

Dude, you need to travel more. I find the scenery in Southwestern Ontario is arguably (except for the beaches and the areas up around Tobermory) some of the most boring in the province. The drive from Milton down to Windsor is such a snoozer.

And people should never use the term best in the country unless they can back it up. You should say " My favorite" or "IMO" You can't tell people what is and what is not the best when it comes to choice.

Some places nation wide you should checkout before you make comments like that again. I'm not saying they're the best, but In My Opinion they are much better.



Upinottawa is correct, my comments were nuanced. I didn't claim that SWO had the best scenery, you need to read more carefully. However "Dude", you would be hard pressed to find a poster on this forum who has traveled more extensively thoughout Canada than I. From Cape Spear, NFLD to Long Beach, BC, from Whitehorse to Point Pelee National Park, I have traveled as well as having lived in several provinces - Ontario, Nfld, Alberta and BC. Consequently, my opinions are more informed that most - especially regarding the countryside of southwestern Ontario where I have driven most of the side roads and having lived there for more than 25 years.

The drive west of Toronto to Windsor along the 401 is pretty flat, particularly areas west of London, but you can't just drive along the 401 and then contradict someone who knows what lies beyond it. With your comments, I can tell that you aren't terribly familiar with the countryside north of Waterloo which has a rolling topography.

Here's another photo taken north of Waterloo:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v221/ocean20/new-6-1.jpg

[WHISTLERINMUSKOKA]

You are correct.

[Waterlooson]

You are correct.

Thanks. BTW, people from Saskatchewan have told me in the past that they thought the countryside north of Waterloo was "really hilly".

[LordMandeep]

????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????

[Waterlooson]

Lord, that's deep man.

[Blitz]

Yikes, makes me wonder why you even bother coming on a site called skyscraperpage.com.

I grew up in Windsor and my grandparents had a killer view of the Detroit skyline from their living room, I think that's what triggered my interest in skyscrapers. But I'm more on this site to discuss cities and geography.

[rousseau]

London, in particular, is a rather attractive city. It has the advantage of being close to the beach "resorts" on both Lake Erie (Port Stanley and Port Dover) and Lake Huron (Grand Bend). I doubt that many Canadians living in other provinces realize just how beautiful these beaches are.
Two things in response to what I think is a somewhat cavalier use of the word "close":

1. It takes an hour by car from London to Grand Bend. This is your definition of "close?"
2. Port Dover is twice as far from London as it is from Hamilton. No one in Hamilton would ever say that Port Dover is "close" to Hamilton.

I quite like going to London from Stratford now and again (though K-W is a bit closer and has better ethnic food, so that's our main "big city" getaway), but as far as I can tell the only thing London is close to is a whole lot of very flat farm fields. And Dorchester. Definitely Dorchester.

[Waterlooson]

Two things in response to what I think is a somewhat cavalier use of the word "close":

1. It takes an hour by car from London to Grand Bend. This is your definition of "close?"
2. Port Dover is twice as far from London as it is from Hamilton. No one in Hamilton would ever say that Port Dover is "close" to Hamilton.

I quite like going to London from Stratford now and again (though K-W is a bit closer and has better ethnic food, so that's our main "big city" getaway), but as far as I can tell the only thing London is close to is a whole lot of very flat farm fields. And Dorchester. Definitely Dorchester.

It takes 33 minutes just to drive from one end of London to the other according to "MapSource" and it takes 52 minutes to drive from the northern part of London to Grand Bend (only 19 minutes longer) according to the same source. So yes, I would say that Grand Bend is rather close to London - note, I didn't say that it bordered London, which seems to be your criterion for "closeness".

Similarly, it takes 33 minutes to drive from one end of Hamilton (west to east) to the other and only 45 minutes (only 12 minutes longer) to drive from south Hamilton to Port Dover. Consequently, it should not be hard to find Hamiltonians who would agree that Port Dover is rather "close" to their city.

The concept of "closeness" can vary quite a bit from one person to another, since this is rather subjective, so it doesn't follow that someone has to be wrong if they don't agree. I didn't realize that two places couldn't exceed a specific distance - that only you have in mind - for others to consider them to be close. ;)

[WaterlooInvestor]

This is the risk in London's economic model. The provincial government shouldn't be spending extra money per capita in London on health care compared to other communities in the province.


LONDON FREE PRESS
Hospitals chop 189
Wed, March 28, 2007
Services will be cut as well as part of a balanced-budget deal with the province.
By JOHN MINER, SUN MEDIA

LAYoff hurts: Emily Gidley is angry at receiving a layoff notice yesterday from the Regional Mental Health Care London. (Mike Hensen, Sun Media)
London hospitals announced 189 staff cuts and a reduction in services yesterday as their part of a balanced-budget deal with the province.

"It will affect patient care because they were providing good care," said Dr. Gillian Kernaghan, vice-president of medical affairs for both London Health Sciences Centre and St. Joseph's Health Care.

Most of the cuts came in what the hospitals call "allied health services" -- staff who provide physiotherapy, occupational therapy, speech and language pathology and psychology.

"There may be longer wait times for these services at LHSC. That is where the focus of the cuts have been," Kernaghan said.

The allied services were targeted because a provincially appointed reviewer found the London hospitals were spending more on the area than other similar hospitals in Ontario, Kernaghan said.

The cuts announced yesterday are all part of the strings attached to $80 million in grants announced last month for London hospitals by Health Minister George Smitherman.

To get the money, the hospital boards have had to sign agreements to come up with $18.4 million, either by cutting costs or finding new revenues, for the fiscal year beginning April 1.

The boards also signed that they would not run a deficit in the next two years.

Aware of the possibility that there might have to be reductions, the hospitals hadn't filled vacancies and had dropped temporary contract positions for the past couple of years.

The result was that for 140 positions cut at London Health Sciences Centre, only 10 individuals were handed layoff notices yesterday.

But at St. Joseph's Health Care, where 49 positions are being eliminated, 29 full-time registered practical nurses at Regional Mental Health Care were laid off.

A nurse for 29 years with St. Joseph's, Emily Gidley said she was stunned when she was told her job would end Aug. 26.

"I am going to be out on the street without a job. I just don't think it is right," said Gidley.

"The other day I was going for a nice walk outside and I am thinking 'Thank you, Lord, life is good. I've got a job, I've got a home, I've got my kids. Everything is great.' Then today, look what happens."

The cuts in nursing come as the province has pledged to increase the number of full-time positions across Ontario. London hospital officials said they are recruiting about 250 more nurses so they can open beds that were closed due to lack of staff.

The cuts in mental health were made because units that have been running at 60 per cent capacity are being merged so they are closer to 90 per cent capacity.

Kernaghan said the main goal of the hospitals was to have the least impact on staff, but most of the hospitals' costs are staffing.

LHSC came up with 66 ways to either cut costs or increase revenue. At St. Joseph's, 140 measures are being taken, including raising dispensing fees at its pharmacy.

Part of the agreement with the province binds the hospitals not to add new services for London patients unless they can find internal savings or the province or another party agree to pay for it.

"In the past if there was a need, we ended up taking on the work even if we didn't necessarily have the money to do it. . . . It was the right thing to do, but that is how we end up in a deficit position," Kernaghan said.

"The boards are committed to say we can't do that."

And with the balanced budget agreement, the hospitals will remain under financial pressure because the increased money from the province won't cover inflation, Kernaghan said.

"Every year we are going to be challenged to find savings," she said.

THE NUMBERS

London Health Sciences Centre

- Savings required: $12 million

- Full-time equivalent positions cut: 140

- Layoff notices issued: 10

St. Joseph's Health Care

- Savings required: $6.4 million

- Full-time equivalent positions cut: 49

- Layoff notices issued: 33

[flar]

This is the risk in London's economic model. The provincial government shouldn't be spending extra money per capita in London on health care compared to other communities in the province.


They have to spend extra money in London because London's hospitals serve so much of Southwestern Ontario. There are hospitals in Chatham, Sarnia and Wallaceburg but they don't do major surgery or have much equipment for tests and diagnostics. Between Chatham and London, there is only one small hospital in Newbury, and it's really more like a emergency clinic. Betwen Sarnia and London there are only two small hospitals in Strathroy and Petrolia.

[upinottawa]

My in-laws live in the Masonville area and have a cottage in Bayfield. It takes about an hour to get from Masonville to Bayfield if you "boot it" down the back roads and there is very little traffic. Grand Bend would take around 50 minutes or so. That being said, Masonville is the extreme North fringe of London and not a good indicator of how close Londoners are to Grand Bend. I think it is better to say that London is a reasonable drive from both Port Stanley and Grand Bend.

As far as medical services in London, that really is a political decision. The provincial government could move resources around and build greater capacity in Sarnia, Chatham, K-W and Windsor and reduce resources in London with little or no change in level or availability in services. It should be noted that both K-W and Windsor are getting mini-med schools soon. The creation of such mini-med schools could be the start of a gradual shift away from London being the region's most prominent medical centre.

[rousseau]

Similarly, it takes 33 minutes to drive from one end of Hamilton (west to east) to the other and only 45 minutes (only 12 minutes longer) to drive from south Hamilton to Port Dover. Consequently, it should not be hard to find Hamiltonians who would agree that Port Dover is rather "close" to their city.
Just to reiterate: No one in Hamilton would ever say that Port Dover is "rather close" to Hamilton.

[Waterlooson]

Just to reiterate: No one in Hamilton would ever say that Port Dover is "rather close" to Hamilton.

You don't speak for Hamiltonians. The single biggest source of tourists for Port Dover is Hamilton according to my niece who lives and operates a business in Port Dover.... she told me that's because Hamilton - a large city - is so close to Port Dover. She gets a lot of customers from London too. :)

I'll agree that saying London is close to Port Dover is stretching things, but saying that Port Dover is close to Hamilton certainly is not... it's only a 45 minute drive away.... if you had to walk it would be far away but I always drive. ;)

[rousseau]

People from Hamilton do go to Port Dover, I know. I lived in Hamilton for many years.

But no one, absolutely no one in Hamilton would ever say that Port Dover was "close" or "rather close." Never. No way. You're talking out of your arse on this point.

[WHISTLERINMUSKOKA]

What's the point of this thread? What is Southwestern Ontario? It's the southwestern part of this province.

[Tony]

This thread is getting annoying as hell, probably because boosterism = stupidity.