Ottawa Macdonald-Cartier International Airport (YOW/CYOW)

[FFX-ME]

YOW is the 6th busiest airport in canada in passenger traffic and is ranked 2nd in custumer satisfaction for airports with less than 5 million passengers per year in the world, it is the second year in a row that it has aquired this title.

It has been going under great changes lately and I was surprised that there was no thread about it so I started one. use this thread to update the construction, post pictures of the terminal and talk about your experience. I can't wait for phase 2 to be finished, it will be awesome, a world class airport. Lately it has added internationnal flights, such as Paris from May to september and several southern destinations (Yay)

I love the fact that a city Ottawa's size starts to see less and less the need to go to Montreal to fly, we are no longer a "suburb" lol.:notacrook: :banana: :cheers:


So I beleive after the expansion there will be 29 gates wich is great, it also has sufficeient boutiques and restaurants etc. All they need (in my opinion) is to update de runways (they are still in asphalt, and it is in a bad condition, asphalt is not as safe as concrete) And I beleive the security should be emproved (larger) for it was prety tight when i went this summer, but that may have changed.

http://img501.imageshack.us/img501/3387/phaseii2cv3.jpg

http://www.ottawa-airport.ca/images/airportInformation/photoGallery/AirportFromRunway.jpg

http://www.ottawa-airport.ca/images/airportInformation/photoGallery/Hallway.jpg

http://www.ottawa-airport.ca/images/airportInformation/photoGallery/FoodCourt.jpg

http://www.ottawa-airport.ca/images/airportInformation/photoGallery/UpperWalkway.jpg

http://www.ottawa-airport.ca/images/airportInformation/photoGallery/Parkade.jpg

http://www.ottawa-airport.ca/images/airportInformation/photoGallery/InukshukInside.jpg

http://www.ottawa-airport.ca/images/airportInformation/photoGallery/TerminalBridge.jpg

http://www.ottawa-airport.ca/images/airportInformation/photoGallery/OttawaLock.jpg

[the dude]

that's a nice lookin' airport you've got there. i know that many ottawans would like to see something bigger and better but it's pretty damned nice all things considered. hey, you guys should consider an LRT project linking the airport to downtown...ooops. sorry.

[Taller Better]

Nice pix!

[3madjack]

I have always loved flying/going to Ottawa but with recent changes/re-orgs, I haven't been there in a while. I need to get my ass back there. Airport is looking good, really good.

[FFX-ME]

Most of the pictures were from the airport website, Its beautifull but small, yes, but with the phase 2 (first pic) it will be like half a kilometer long wich is prety good. the food court is very empty also (only Harveys, swiss chalet, Tim Hortons, a grill and some other cold food places)

[chris]

That's beautiful! Nice to see that YOW is expanding once again. I hope they keep up the good work, that's really good news for Ottawa.

BTW, how many people from Ottawa actually go to Montreal for flights?

[harls]

it's just dash-8 flights, isn't it? I know once my parents visited me in Montreal (flying from YWG) and had a transfer in Ottawa on one of those.. I can't imagine any businesspeople going through the hassle of a direct flight to Montreal or vice-versa when it's only 2 hours away by car... less with the train..

[FFX-ME]

I have no idea but for internationnal flights almost everyone goes to Montreal because Ottawa isnt suppliing. But with the new terminal they have added new internationnal locations like Glascow, Paris, other London floghts and several southern flights. So the use of Ottawa's airport is cimbing as montreal will probably decrease

[YOWflier]

Ottawa Airport loses over 200,000 pax per year to Montreal. About half of these pax are people who drive to Montreal to catch a flight, and the other half fly to Montreal to catch an overseas connection.

Ottawa Airport will reclaim most of this lost traffic with the addition of an Ottawa-Frankfurt nonstop. This new service is a matter of when, not if.

[YOWflier]

I propose some amendments to your introductory post as some information is wrong, incomplete, or misleading.

YOW is the 6th busiest airport in canada in passenger traffic and is ranked 2nd in custumer satisfaction for airports with less than 5 million passengers per year.This makes the reader think the airport is ranked 2nd in Canada, when really it was ranked 2nd in the World in the "airports serving 0-5 million passengers" category. It is also the 2nd year running that the airport has claimed this title. I believe you should mention this.

Lately it has added many internationnal flights, such as London, Paris, Glascow and several southern destinations (Yay)The London and Glasgow service have existed for years.

London (Heathrow) is served by Air Canada (year-round, 1x daily using 767-300 equipment) and London (Gatwick) is served by both Zoom Airlines (year-round except winter, 2x weekly using 767-300 equipment) and Thomas Cook Airlines U.K. (year-round except winter, 1x weekly using ETOPS certified 757-200 equipment). Glasgow is served by Zoom Airlines (year-round except winter, 1x weekly using 767-300 equipment).

The only new service of the group you mention is to Paris, and this was inaugurated last Summer by Air Transat. It is a seasonal service operating May-September, 1x weekly using A310 equipment.

All they need (in my opinion) is to update de runways (they are still in asphalt, and it is in a bad condition, not safe)Your personal opinion that the runways should be "updated", however silly I believe to be, is perfectly fine. However, your claim that the runways are in such a bad condition that they are "unsafe" is ill-informed, unfounded, presumptuous, misleading, and just plain flat out wrong. You should remove the unsafe part immediately.

[FFX-ME]

It is a FACT that asphalt runways aren't as safe as concrete because that the friction coefficient between the rubber and the asphalt is greatly decreased when the asphalt is wet, causing it to take longer for the plane to come to a complete stop. Concrete doesn't have as large side effects as asphalt. The fact that it is crumbling isnt what makes in unsafe, just annoying. The fact that it is asphalt makes it unsafe in winter and in wet conditions, OK. For the rest i will change it.

You have probably heard of hydroplaning before, a layer of water forms on the top of the surface so the vehicle doesn't touch the ground and "floats" on water causing it to slip. Concrete has larger pores which helps to limit this missfortune. There are many examples of this sort of accident, google it you will see.

[YOWflier]

Sigh. You didn't say an asphalt runway is "not as safe" as concrete. You said asphalt runways are "not safe", which is not only childish but completely absurd.

By your information we should decommission any asphalt runways worldwide due to safety concerns ... this would include some/all runways at Heathrow, O'Hare, Pearson, JFK, Boston, etc. etc. While we're at it let's decommission all non-concrete highways and motorways around the world too.

[FFX-ME]

It is being done, slowly they are changing major highways to concrete instead of asphalt and the same is beeing done for airports.

JFK's main runway is half concrete
O'hare also has many runways that have a concrete mixture
Heathrow has grooved asphalt which increases friction
Pearson has a half concrete runway

They are changing them slowly but it is difficult for high traffic airports due to the fact they need their runways to accommodate the traffic. Changes that large can't come overnight, they are expensive and time consuming. Your comment is absolutely fallacious.

[YOWflier]

LOL. Whatever you say.

At some point I'd like to see some pics of the "crumbling" runways because I'm there every week and haven't seen it. :koko:

BTW, you misspelled the thread title.

[FFX-ME]

That,s your opinion, i believe they are in a bad condition, anyway this thread wasn't made in the intention of causing disputes but more to bring new information on the airport's development so stop complaining

[YOWflier]

Forgetting about the fact that much of your information and some of your graphics come from me, this is a discussion forum so I'll go ahead and continue to interject my commentary where appropriate and/or when fictional statements are being made. This is especially true for topics that I am quite familiar with such as this one.

[chris]

How many gates will Phase 2 of the expansion have?

[FFX-ME]

I believe the total will be 29 gates

[YOWflier]

How many gates will Phase 2 of the expansion have?Phase II is adding 12 gates and 7 jet bridges.

[FFX-ME]

do you know what is the estimated capacity for an airport Ottawa's size and what it shall be after the expansion. (I mean passengers per year)

[YOWflier]

This is a good question for the airport authority (you can email them) but I believe the current capacity is around 5 million pax per year, jumping to around 6-7 million when phases 2-3 of the expansion are complete.

[FFX-ME]

there's a phase 3?, what's phase 3, it won't be done right after 2 right, there will be a waiting period

[YOWflier]

Yes, there is also a phase 3. And yes, it won't happen immediately but rather when traffic warrants it.

Details on it are a bit sketchy, but as I've heard phase 3 will expand parking facilities and add more aircraft gates. By more gates I believe they mean remote parking stands (between the terminal building and the Esso/Shell FBOs) and not additional terminal expansion.

[adam-machiavelli]

Part of phase 3 is already done -the parking garage expansion. The other part involves knocking down that hangar just north of the terminal and lengthening the north 'finger' of the terminal to add 2 or 3 more gates for larger planes.

[eemy]

JL Richards and Associates used to have a rendering on their website showing the different phases of development, but they've since replaced it with photos from the new terminal. I *believe*, from what I recall of the picture, that the airport was supposed to be further expanded on the transborder side, but I can't be absolutely certain and it seems that there isn't a whole lot of space to expand there. Current renderings for Phase 2 show a few remote stands, so I expect that will be included with this phase of construction

[YOWflier]

March 18, 2007

http://i127.photobucket.com/albums/p132/AC888YOW/50bf15a6.jpg

[Coldrsx]

YOW feels like YEG so much and in so many ways...under the shadow of tor and mtl.

what are YOW's stats? I would love to compare to YEG given how both cities are about the same size.

Here are YEG's most recent from 06:


Domestic: 4,346,788
Transborder: 693,378
International: 171,745
---------------------
Total: 5,211,911

we are on pace for 6,000,000+ this yr.

[Coldrsx]

this pathetic little chart was all i could find...more?

http://www.ottawa-airport.ca/FlightInformation/paxchart-e.pdf

[YOWflier]

YEG should be happy her geography doesn't suck as much as YOW's. Our numbers should be similar to yours but ...

Totals for 2007:

Domestic - 2,807,377
TB + Int'l - 1,001,432
Total - 3,808,809

At least we have you beat on the TB + Int'l number :D

BTW, I am fully aware of the explosive growth at Alberta airports but to see +800k pax growth in a year is nuts for an airport like YEG/YOW. We'll have to revisit that 6 mil number in a year.

[Coldrsx]

YEG should be happy her geography doesn't suck as much as YOW's. Our numbers should be similar to yours but ...

Totals for 2007:

Domestic - 2,807,377
TB + Int'l - 1,001,432
Total - 3,808,809

At least we have you beat on the TB + Int'l number :D

BTW, I am fully aware of the explosive growth at Alberta airports but to see +800k pax growth in a year is nuts for an airport like YEG/YOW. We'll have to revisit that 6 mil number in a year.

interesting transborder...thanks for the numbers.

for Jan/Feb this yr we are up 18.3% and that is over the 15% records from last yr. YEG finally has the service it deserves so we will see even more people using it.

do a lot of people drive to MTL to fly?

[citizen j]

ac, where did you get your numbers for YOW? The airport authority doesn't seem to want to share much of anything these days on their website (no mention of the current project under construction, no updates, no statement of numbers for 2006 apart from incomplete quarterly reports, etc). I had to remind them to update their data last year several months after additional destinations were added. It's like their web presence is always an afterthought.

[Coldrsx]

So YOW and YWG are within 450,000ish...interesting.

[YOWflier]

do a lot of people drive to MTL to fly?YOW loses well over 200k pax per year to YUL. About half of them drive.

ac, where did you get your numbers for YOW? The airport authority doesn't seem to want to share much of anything these days on their website (no mention of the current project under construction, no updates, no statement of numbers for 2006 apart from incomplete quarterly reports, etc).I get my information from a few sources who either once did, or currently do, work for the airport authority.

I agree that their web site could use more regular updates. They covered Phase I of the expansion pretty well (regular news, picture updates) but there is complete silence for Phase II. That's why I'm trying to do a monthly picture update of some sort.

And yeah, they do seem to keep official numbers a bit close to the chest for whatever reason. I don't see why they don't just publish the information like pretty much every other airport does.

[Coldrsx]

how about to YYZ?

same?more?

"YOW loses well over 200k pax per year to YUL. About half of them drive."

YEG loses roughly 500,000-1,000,000 to YYC i figure...prob closer to 500k now...was 1mil 2-3 yrs ago, hence part of the reason for our growth.

Does YOW have a 20yr outlook? PDF?

[CMD UW]

BTW, I am fully aware of the explosive growth at Alberta airports but to see +800k pax growth in a year is nuts for an airport like YEG/YOW. We'll have to revisit that 6 mil number in a year.
I would like to place a wager on this one. My guess that YEG will either surpass or just slightly fall short of 6 million PAX in 2007.

[Coldrsx]

will YOW beat 4,000,000?

[YOWflier]

I would like to place a wager on this one. My guess that YEG will either surpass or just slightly fall short of 6 million PAX in 2007.I'm not saying it won't happen. It will be very impressive if it does, that's all. The recent introduction of currently 3x-weekly (eventually daily) YEG-LHR with Air Canada will certainly provide a good portion of the boost.

how about to YYZ?

same?more?Oh god, while I don't have any official number on this I'm sure it's many times more. I'll try to get some hard numbers though.

I figure between YUL and YYZ, YOW probably loses over a million pax per year. Again this is just a brutal estimate.

will YOW beat 4,000,000?YOW will need roughly 5% growth over last year to reach/surpass 4 million. That will be difficult because I haven't yet heard of many significant route increases/introductions. A full year of Porter service to YTZ and seasonal YHZ service will help, as will the 1-2 month extension of the season YOW-CDG by Air Transat, but even still 5% will be a challenge.

[FFX-ME]

what flights have benn and are planned to be added to the flight schedule of the airport. It did get a Frankfurt flight right

[Coldrsx]

so this is how it looks for cities of around 1 mil:

(2006)
calgary - 10,000,000+
Edmonton - 5,200,000+
Ottawa - 3,800,000+
Winnipeg - 3,300,000+
Hamilton - ?

[FFX-ME]

calgary is 11million not 10 as for hamilton i only foumd the aircraft movement

[YOWflier]

what flights have benn and are planned to be added to the flight schedule of the airport. It did get a Frankfurt flight rightThere is no Frankfurt flight yet. This route is on Air Canada's short list but the challenges are:

- slot availability at Frankfurt
- no aircraft available

Personally I hope to see Lufthansa fly the route instead of Air Canada, but I doubt that.

As of right now there aren't many new routes to speak of for this year. It's mostly just frequency/schedule changes.

[AuxTown]

I think the Ottawa Airport is just perfect right now as far as air traffic goes. We can fly to any major centre in North America and Europe at least once per day and there are tons of flights within Canada. As we start to add more and more flights, there are going to start being confilcts on the runways and delays. Just look at some of the delays in Toronto on a busy day. If Ottawa is going to add a significant number of more flights per day then we will likely have to add another runway.

[eemy]

^ I highly doubt that.

[YOWflier]

I think the Ottawa Airport is just perfect right now as far as air traffic goes. We can fly to any major centre in North America and Europe at least once per day and there are tons of flights within Canada.I think you're either stretching the truth a bit or you think flights exist that don't. There are plenty of gaps in YOW's route map that need to be filled, and I'm talking realistic routes like YOW-SFO or YOW-LAX, YOW-FRA, YOW-DFW, YOW-MIA.

I'd say the airport service right now is "decent", but it can and should be a whole lot better.

[FFX-ME]

Are there plans to add flights to those hubs or you havent heard of it

[YOWflier]

I've heard something in one way or another about FRA, SFO, and MIA. There is no concrete information (especially launch date) for any of them though.

[FFX-ME]

take a look at this http://www.edreams.com/flights/frankfurt-ottawa/ there seems to be flights from frankfurt planned

[YOWflier]

That says nothing about the flight being nonstop. Trust me, there is no flights between Ottawa and Frankfurt right now.

That's probably via Montreal or Toronto, or maybe even via Heathrow on the existing Air Canada flight #889.

[FFX-ME]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8cgsTCd2S6U

this show you what i meant by crumbling asphalt, the asphalt is in a bad shape do to erosion, they fill the cracks and it makes bumps, very annoying.

[YOWflier]

The rough surface that is visible from the beginning (ie. what you see for the first ~minute) is not runway but rather taxiway. Specifically, this is taxiway Alpha that connects to runway 14 via taxiways Kilo and Lima. Taxiways are quite commonly in much worse shape than runways or aprons. In my flying experience this is consistent among pretty much all airports I've been to.

At about 1:15 the Jazz CRJ turns onto runway 14 and you immediately notice the improved surface ... it is in no way perfect, but it is much better. This is further supported by the videographer's apparent ease to remain relatively steady during the takeoff roll.

Concrete would be ideal, but what we have is more than good enough for now.

[Coldrsx]

^just got our march numbers for you:


2006: 431,679

2007: 540,102*

*rumoured

= 25.11% growth


holy crap

[YOWflier]

Even though the winter months tend to be some of the heaviest in terms of traffic, if the actual number comes anywhere near 25% that is totally absurd and you should feel proud about that!

[Coldrsx]

Even though the winter months tend to be some of the heaviest in terms of traffic, if the actual number comes anywhere near 25% that is totally absurd and you should feel proud about that!

is it heavier in YOW during winter? In Edmonton it is a little heavier, but far from summer months.

[YOWflier]

is it heavier in YOW during winter? In Edmonton it is a little heavier, but far from summer months.Here's where the airport's pax chart gets to exercise its limited usefulness.

http://www.ottawa-airport.ca/FlightInformation/paxchart-e.pdf

May through October are the most consistent in terms of heavy traffic, but February and especially March are also quite busy. Makes sense what with the Winter charters in full sched and the spring/march break holidays.

[Coldrsx]

^official march in now...not 25% but 19%...

domestic 404818 15.4%
TB 72956 25%
I 36072 61.1%
total 513846 19%

[eemy]

Still impressive though.

[SSLL]

It's a great new terminal. I definitely think they lose a lot of passengers to Montreal.

[srperrycgy]

It's a great new terminal. I definitely think they lose a lot of passengers to Montreal.

Yeah, its nice. Arrived on the 1st and came back to Calgary last Friday evening. But the terminal is way too dark! It's a lot smaller than I would have thought. And also, why is Airport Parkway only 2 lanes?? When it is busy, that trip must be hell.

[FFX-ME]

yes, there are plans to make it 4 lanes but you know how burocracy slows thngs down here. I would like to have light rail transit to the airport though, instead of a larger highway.

[YOWflier]

April 18, 2007

http://i127.photobucket.com/albums/p132/AC888YOW/Port.jpg

Full Size (http://i127.photobucket.com/albums/p132/AC888YOW/Port_Big.jpg)

[eemy]

Just to clarify, once the new wing is opened and they tear down the old terminal, all that will remain to do is install the bridges and pave the tarmac? Or will they still have further construction?

[FFX-ME]

well there is a phase III expansion planned but its only going to be needed in 15 years or so

[citizen j]

Yeah, its nice. Arrived on the 1st and came back to Calgary last Friday evening. But the terminal is way too dark! It's a lot smaller than I would have thought. And also, why is Airport Parkway only 2 lanes?? When it is busy, that trip must be hell.

One of the main reasons that the Parkway hasn't been expanded is that it empties onto Bronson Avenue at the north end. Few in the Glebe or in Centretown want to the be on the receiving end of an expanded throughway like that (compare King Edward Avenue aka Autoroute 5 extension). Since the city added northbound on-ramps to the Airport Parkway, it's no longer just an airport service road and so an expanded roadway would also serve as a commuter route to downtown. I guess the feeling is -- more road capacity, more traffic, problem not solved.

And yes, at night, the airport terminal certainly does have some dark spots. I had to shift around to find decent reading light in the departure lounge. But I love the architectural nod to the Train Station in the use of exposed dark trusses. Nice.

Thanks for the update, ac.

[zerokarma]

^just got our march numbers for you:


2006: 431,679

2007: 540,102*

*rumoured

= 25.11% growth


holy crap

Hey thats pretty good!

That will undoubtfully keep going up as well.

[FFX-ME]

i hope that the phase 3 expansion will not just make it longer but add shape to the airport. something like this.
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/f/ff/Phaseii2cv3.jpg

[eemy]

^ The train station is really an under-rated building. It's big misfortune is being located in the middle of nowhere.

[YOWflier]

Just to clarify, once the new wing is opened and they tear down the old terminal, all that will remain to do is install the bridges and pave the tarmac? Or will they still have further construction?I'm not entirely sure, but I think construction of the entire new wing will be done before they demolish the rest of the old terminal. The exception being the installation of the remaining bridges and paving the ramp on that (west) side.

[FFX-ME]

hey ac, everywhere it says that the second phase (in construction) will be completed in 2008 and phase 3 is in 2014. It that still the case or they will postpone the third phase for later. Oh i sure wish it will be done in 2014. Anyway, if it is will it just be an elongation of the nw side?

thanks a lot, if you dont know the answer its fine, do you know where to get it though?

[YOWflier]

I honestly don't know what is planned beyond Phase II. To figure it out, I suggest you go straight to the source and send a question to the airport authority via the online form. I've done it a few times in the past.

http://www.ottawa-airport.ca/AirportAuthority/contactUs-e.php

If you do this let us know what they say!

[FFX-ME]

Hey, i got a reply to my questions about the expansion. Basicly the capacity after phase 2 will be over 5M, and phase 3 will comme in about 10 years when they expect the need, so in 2007.


There is no simple answer. If traffic were to increase during the times of day when
we are not busy, we could increase capacity without the addition of new gates. But
because we are an origin/departure market, we have to deal with the morning and
evening peaks which in fact drive the capacity required.



Phase II will allow us to deal with passenger increases using current peaks for the
next 10 years or so, so until roughly 2017. At that time, we expect passenger
traffic to be slightly over 5 million a year.



Phase III will be launched only when needed. Depending on where the passenger growth
will be in the next few years (domestic, transborder or international), depending on
the regulations at that time, particularly with respect to free trade agreements and
security, the nature of Phase II could have different options. Future will tell.



Merci de votre intérêt,



Pierre Lanoix


so that seems prety cool.:tup:

[AuxTown]

I just got back from a trip this afternoon in which I saw the terminals in Ottawa, Calgary, Winnipeg, Toronto, and Edmonton. I would have to say that, without a doubt, Ottawa's new terminal is the best looking in the country. I think it really gives you a feel specific to Ottawa and that several design features really make it unique in Canada....and the world. I think it is one thing that those of us in Ottawa can be proud of and, with Phase II well underway, there shouldn't be any more complaints that our airport is too small for the city.

[FFX-ME]

that is great to hear and it is true that it is a very attractive terminal. But, winnioeg's is prety old, i hope theirs succeeds as well. It is well time that this city had a world class airport. Now if only it could access the world lol.

[AuxTown]

Winnipeg's is pretty old so I wasn't surprized at what I found there, but Calgary was a surprize. With all this talk about Calgary being the new financial capital of Canada and the money flowing out of Alberta, maybe they should have done a nicer job on their new terminal. The ceilings when you are walking around the gates are like 9 feet tall and the entire feel of the airport was uninspired. The only part I liked was the area where they designed the terminal to look like the original one from the 1940's. It's great that they have so many gates but a city's airport is their first impression on the world and, as it stands, it doesn't make a very good impression......at least not one representative of the growth and flourishing economy of the city.

[chris]

If you guys want hard number for Origin and Destination passenger traffic to and from the USA for every single Canadian city, go to the StatsCan website...the latest results are from 2004 but they are still very useful. You will see that YOW is still lacking the right amount of passenger traffic to have non-stop flights to many US destinations, such as SFO

[BlackRedGold]

If you guys want hard number for Origin and Destination passenger traffic to and from the USA for every single Canadian city, go to the StatsCan website...the latest results are from 2004 but they are still very useful. You will see that YOW is still lacking the right amount of passenger traffic to have non-stop flights to many US destinations, such as SFO

From StatsCan it seems like the Bay Area is third only to New York and DC for passengers flying into and out of Ottawa among US destinations.

Edmonton has fewer passengers flying into and out of the Bay Area but they still have a direct flight.

[harls]

Winnipeg's is pretty old so I wasn't surprized at what I found there.

Winnipeg is in the process of building a new terminal as we speak.. the one you were in will be decommissioned in a couple of years.

http://farm1.static.flickr.com/177/368900532_ecbe516fde_o.jpg

[FFX-ME]

^ I love the exterior look of that terminal, but the interior part doent look as attractive as ours.

[AuxTown]

That terminal looks pretty sleek. I saw some construction fences but I didn't realize that they were building a new one. Way to go Winnipeg.....just make sure it looks nicer than Calgary's ;) !

[chris]

From StatsCan it seems like the Bay Area is third only to New York and DC for passengers flying into and out of Ottawa among US destinations.

Edmonton has fewer passengers flying into and out of the Bay Area but they still have a direct flight.

Yes but don't forget a much smaller aircraft can be used onthe YEG-SFO route, small enough that would result in high loads. YOW-SFO can see an A319, but nothing smaller (I guess maybe an E190, but few airlines are willing to put such a small aircraft on such a long route). Also, even YUL-SFO has had trouble in the past. The flight is currently at 1x daily and the YUL-SFO market is more than twice as large as the YOW-SFO market. We've seen the route be axed before in the recent past. If YUL-SFO has trouble working out...YOW-SFO might too.

[citizen j]

Winnipeg's new terminal is designed by I. M. Pei, no? It's really impressive.
There may not be a perfect airport in the country, but there are some really very good ones.

[harls]

^ Cesar Pelli, I hear.

[YOWflier]

If you guys want hard number for Origin and Destination passenger traffic to and from the USA for every single Canadian city, go to the StatsCan website...the latest results are from 2004 but they are still very useful. You will see that YOW is still lacking the right amount of passenger traffic to have non-stop flights to many US destinations, such as SFOAir routes are not solely based on O&D traffic. If they were then the concept of a hub wouldn't exist. Connecting traffic is a large factor in determining the viability of an air route, and a SFO non-stop would serve as a gateway to California, the entire Western US, and Asia-Pacific.

There is ample demand right now for a daily YOW-SFO service. There is also ample demand for a 3-5x weekly YOW-FRA service.

[chris]

Air routes are not solely based on O&D traffic. If they were then the concept of a hub wouldn't exist. Connecting traffic is a large factor in determining the viability of an air route, and a SFO non-stop would serve as a gateway to California, the entire Western US, and Asia-Pacific.


Connecting traffic...but for whom? There is an Air Canada hub to the east and to the southwest. Pax from YHZ, YYT, YQB, YQM, YDF, YSJ, YFC, and YYG would chose to connect in YUL or YYZ before YOW, especially considering the flight times are conveniently scheduled to produce connecting opportunities for Atlantic Canadian going westward in both YUL and YYZ.

[YOWflier]

Connecting traffic...but for whom?For the pax living in the cities of Ottawa, Gatineau, and the surrounding region of Eastern Ontario (Cornwall, Brockville, Kingston, etc.). SFO is a main United/Star Alliance hub offering a multitude of connection possibilities to the regions I mentioned earlier and beyond.

Pax from YHZ, YYT, YQB, YQM, YDF, YSJ, YFC, and YYG would choose to connect in YUL or YYZ before YOWYOW will never be a hub operation like YUL or YYZ. It is a niche market driven almost entirely by demand. However, I wouldn't automatically assume all Eastern pax would choose YUL or YYZ before YOW. YUL and YYZ would certainly retain most of those pax, but YOW would certainly attract a few.

Don't underestimate the convenience of connecting through a much smaller YOW airport. One huge benefit is in the US customs pre-clearance. Doing so in YOW is a breeze, whereas doing the same in YYZ is a disaster (so much so that I personally refuse to connect through YYZ to the US anymore because of it). I've never pre-cleared in YUL, but I'm sure it's also much busier than YOW.

[FFX-ME]

air canada is a focus city of air canada and air canada jazz. Plus it is also the hub of zoom airlines and first air, but they arent remarquable airlines. a Fra and sfo flight will certainly be good as to go to many destinations in asia and europe you need to make at least 2 or 3 connections which people hate. So vancouver and san francisco will connect yow to asia and frankfurt and london will connect us to europe and the world. It would be nice to have year round flights to Paris to but with heathrow it wouldnt be very usefull. Plus, if Halifax can support a frankfurt flight why couldnt ottawa?

[YOWflier]

To my knowledge there is no carrier flying YHZ-FRA.

[FFX-ME]

condor airlines has seasonal flights from halifax to frankfurt. Air transat has flights to frankfurt from halifax. So they have to, one year round and one seasonal but i dont know how often. But it is true that halifax is a much more important hub than ottawa. But i checked and even whitehorse has a seasonal service to fra so it is very possible and feasable for ottawa.

[eemy]

I don't know about Halifax, but Whitehorse has a flight because of tour operators for the northern lights, colours or something like that. I'm fairly certain that the east coast cities get them for the same reasons. For whatever reasons, Ottawa doesn't seem to draw a lot of these tour groups.

While I'd prefer YOW-SFO, I think that UAX should consider operating YOW-DEN as an alternate. It's not nearly as far, and it would be the perfect connecting point for SFO and LAX (which also has a significant number of O&D passengers) and the entire western US.

How many flights does YOW-BOS get? It seems they only have 3 CRJ daily, which seems kind of underserved.

[YOWflier]

condor airlines has seasonal flights from halifax to frankfurt. Air transat has flights to frankfurt from halifax. So they have to, one year round and one seasonal but i dont know how often. But it is true that halifax is a much more important hub than ottawa. But i checked and even whitehorse has a seasonal service to fra so it is very possible and feasable for ottawa.I meant that no legacy carrier flies YHZ-FRA. The charter airlines are a different story, and don't really "count" in my book. They mean nothing as far as being a more important "hub".

I tend to focus more on the legacy carriers because them flying a route is proof that there exists not only a low-yield leisure component (traveller) but more importantly a high-yield premium component (that is absent with the charters).

Don't get me wrong, I wouldn't turn away a charter from flying YOW-anywhere, but unless an airport has a healthy dose of legacy airlines serving it the operation is "small time".

[chris]

Meh...YOW-BOS 3 daily CRJ seems adequate. The market isn't huge...its smaller than YOW-SFO actually.

What would be interesting about YOW-DEN is that the flight would not only serve O&D pax, but also serve as a connecting point for residents of Ottawa to places such as LAX, SFO, LAS, SAN, and SLC.

[BlackRedGold]

What would be interesting about YOW-DEN is that the flight would not only serve O&D pax, but also serve as a connecting point for residents of Ottawa to places such as LAX, SFO, LAS, SAN, and SLC.

It's similiar to what SFO could do but SFO could also serve as a connecting point to locations west of SFO like Hawaii, Asia, Australia, and New Zealand.

[YOWflier]

Rumour has it that Frontier (probably a regional partner Horizon or Republic) is snooping around looking at a potential YOW-DEN. They have just begun expanding into Canada with the first destination being Calgary.

I'd prefer United (Express), but I'd take Frontier.

[chris]

For the pax living in the cities of Ottawa, Gatineau, and the surrounding region of Eastern Ontario (Cornwall, Brockville, Kingston, etc.). SFO is a main United/Star Alliance hub offering a multitude of connection possibilities to the regions I mentioned earlier and beyond.

YOW will never be a hub operation like YUL or YYZ. It is a niche market driven almost entirely by demand. However, I wouldn't automatically assume all Eastern pax would choose YUL or YYZ before YOW. YUL and YYZ would certainly retain most of those pax, but YOW would certainly attract a few.

Don't underestimate the convenience of connecting through a much smaller YOW airport. One huge benefit is in the US customs pre-clearance. Doing so in YOW is a breeze, whereas doing the same in YYZ is a disaster (so much so that I personally refuse to connect through YYZ to the US anymore because of it). I've never pre-cleared in YUL, but I'm sure it's also much busier than YOW.


But YOW doesn't even HAVE flights to YYT, YYG, YDF, YQM, YSJ, and YFC!

[YOWflier]

I was referring to YHZ and all those who connect through it from surrounding areas.

Besides, I never said such a route would be a connection magnet. It's purpose would almost solely be to satisfy the demand from the Ottawa/Eastern Ontario region, with a few connections trickling in here and there.

Kind of like a European traveller using LHR-YOW on Air Canada (Flt. 889) to connect to a US destination. This is pretty much the last routing you'd expect to see, and while it is a tiny number, it does actually happen.

I know a fellow who works baggage here at YOW and he tells me about the "interesting" connections he sees when (off)loading flights. It is this same fellow who tells me about the consistently huge number of FRA-destined baggage loaded onto Air Canada Flt. 888 YOW-LHR (my namesake). Further evidence that a YOW-FRA nonstop, probably on AC, is imminent.

[Coldrsx]

^dont see why not...YEG is apparently getting a LH or AC to FRA this fall or spring when more 67's are free so i could see YOW getting the same thing.

[FFX-ME]

The big difference between edmonton and Ottawa is that Ottawa is at a driving distance from Montreal, Calgary is not.



And realy ac, non-stop flights to frankfurt?

[eemy]

It's been rumoured for awhile now and AC even listed it as one of the routes they would like to operate in an Annual Report or some other document. The problem seems to mainly be aircraft availability which will probably be dealt with in the next year or two as the older aircraft leave and AC can afford to actually increase the size of the fleet.

[Odot.]

Does anyone know the number of passengers who travel between Ottawa and St. John's on a regular basis. I know that there are a lot of people in Ottawa who are from Newfoundland but is it enough to support a non-stop flight? The obvious answer would be no becasue a flight doesn't exist but I think it would make for great connections between east and west and it would allow all Newfoundland bound traffic from Ottawa to avoid Toronto or Halifax. What are your guys thoughts on this?

[YOWflier]

^^ I remember seeing that document. It showed a future route map and YOW-FRA was definitely on there. Aircraft and FRA slot availability are the two problems right now for this route.

I'm hopeful the latest we'll see this route is in 2010 when AC begins taking 787 deliveries, but it would be great to see it sooner.

[chris]

jeremy_haak and ac888yow, would any fo you guys know how to access the document you guys are talking about? I actually remember it too, but I have no clue how to access it. I'm just curious because I'm sure it offered a pretty sense of where AC saw potential growth in the future.