[cmjdrj1]

Just read this article in the AJC. The numbers are staggering! It stated that the ATL metro grew by more that 166,000 people from July 05 to July 06. We are officially at 5,138,223 people and it does not seem to be slowing down.

http://www.ajc.com/metro/content/metro/atlanta/stories/2007/03/21/0322lvcensus.html

[Plasticman]

That's no surprise to me. The building going on and the continued influx of residents even over here toward Athens is staggering. This is a hotbed.

[Andrea]

It stated that the ATL metro grew by more that 166,000 people from July 05 to July 06.

I wonder what percentage of those people chose the burbs. In years past it's been running over 90%.

[SteveD]

Just read this article in the AJC. The numbers are staggering! It stated that the ATL metro grew by more that 166,000 people from July 05 to July 06. We are officially at 5,138,223 people and it does not seem to be slowing down.

http://www.ajc.com/metro/content/metro/atlanta/stories/2007/03/21/0322lvcensus.html

Indeed it is staggering, cmj!. I started a thread on this topic this morning over in "City Discussions" (link below) and there have been some interesting comments about Atlanta over there...

http://forum.skyscraperpage.com/showthread.php?t=127882

[Pillsbury Doughboy]

Atlanta is a monster. The talk of the town down this way. I shall be joining y'all soon......

[SteveD]

I wonder what percentage of those people chose the burbs. In years past it's been running over 90%.

A lot for sure, Andrea, but maybe not 90%, since the City is seeing a population resurgance. That being said tho, FOUR of the fastest growing 11 counties in the entire U.S. from 2000 through 2006 are in Atlanta's burbs (Forsyth #5, Henry #8, Paulding #9, Newton #11). Four out of the top 11! That's astounding!

[Hybrid0NE]

6 Million in 4 years! Someone better start double decking those freeways soon, until transit stops hibernating.

[ThrashATL]

The CSA pop of Atlanta is GREATER than the individual population of 31 U.S. states.... and will probably exceed 3 more by 2010.

[Mayfd24]

6 Million in 4 years! Someone better start double decking those freeways soon, until transit stops hibernating.

And if you'll remember, when the census counted 4.1 million, they estimated a much later date of reaching over 5 million... (I believe past 2010)

[dante2308]

The ARC puts the core ten counties at 6 million by 2025 and at 4 million today. Perhaps in rebellion, they do not include the other counties in the region, but in any case, I think this number is conservative and doesn't truly factor in the near exponential growth of Atlanta.

By 2015, it is firm belief that the MSA will exceed 6 million and bump us several places in terms of US metropolitan areas up above Houston, Miami, Washington DC and perhaps even Dallas making us the largest in the southeast.

Whether this is good is another thing entirely...

[Trae]

You aren't passing up Houston or Dallas. For one thing, Dallas-Fort Worth is growing faster (except for this year) than Atlanta, and is at 6.2 million now. Houston is already larger than Atlanta, and isn't growing that much slower than it (grew by 184,000 this year). The census puts Houston at 5.6 million. It puts Atlanta's metro at 5.1 million.

http://money.cnn.com/galleries/2007/real_estate/0703/gallery.fastest_growing_counties/index.html

Texas has half the list.

[SteveD]

You aren't passing up Houston or Dallas. For one thing, Dallas-Fort Worth is growing faster (except for this year) than Atlanta, and is at 6.2 million now. Houston is already larger than Atlanta, and isn't growing that much slower than it (grew by 184,000 this year). The census puts Houston at 5.6 million. It puts Atlanta's metro at 5.1 million.

http://money.cnn.com/galleries/2007/real_estate/0703/gallery.fastest_growing_counties/index.html

Texas has half the list.

Trae, it's sort of a silly argument, since who really cares, but the Atlanta CSA and the Houston CSA are, with the latest estimates, essentially the same size (Houston CSA 5,539,949 Atlanta CSA 5,478,667). From a statistical standpoint, that's basically identical. Atlanta used to trail Houston, but doesn't any more, since it's currently growing SOMEWHAT faster than Houston. Of course Houston is growing like gangbusters, but Atlanta is (currently) growing even a little bit faster. Both CSAs are already larger than the Miami MSA (MSA, since Miami is the only metro in the top 15 that doesn't have a corresponding CSA), and quickly putting additional distance between them. The Atlanta CSA is estimated by the census bureua to have added 229,000 in the last year...that's astounding! There's still a little distance between Houston and Atlanta when you compare MSAs, but even in that category, Atlanta is catching up. It's true that Dallas is growing very fast too (again, currently not as fast as either Atlanta OR Houston - the Dallas CSA added 139,000 in the last year), but it's considerably larger than either Atlanta or Houston, so it will take many years for either Atlanta OR Houston to catch Dallas. Georgia counties don't show up on the Money/CNN link you posted, since it's tallying absolute numbers, and Georgia's counties are so small. However, if you look at the fastest growing counties in terms of rate of growth http://www.census.gov/popest/counties/CO-EST2006-08.html you see that metro Atlanta counties come in at number 5, 8, 9, and 11.

See my post below for a correction!

[jcathens]

Thanks for the numbers SteveD, I thought Atlanta was catching Houston, I didn't think it would be this quick though. If rates continue as they are, Atlanta could pass Houston in 07. Although things change. It really doesn't matter anyways.

[SteveD]

Wait, hold the press! I think Trae is right. I went back and added up the Texas counties. The Houston number has been misrepresented in this thread and another (I'll go back and correct in a thread I started elsewhere). Here's the current July 2006 population estimates:

Looking at CSAs (and including Miami)

Houston CSA 5,641,077
Atlanta CSA 5,478,667
Miami MSA 5,463,857 (Miami doesn't have a CSA)

Looking at MSAs

Houston MSA 5,539,949
Miami MSA 5,463,857 (same as above, obviously)
Atlanta MSA 5,138,223

Another poster has been posting Houston's MSA as its CSA by accident. The Houston CSA added 260,000+ to its CSA over the last year, which is in fact even faster than Atlanta! I stand corrected!

[dante2308]

Katrina, people. Houston tacked on some 150,000 on due to that storm. We need to see the post Katrina figures for an actual comparison. Anyway, if Houston put on 30,000 more than Atlanta last year, then the population difference was only about 130,000 to begin with. That means that a pair of good, hurricane free year like 2006-2007 in fact would put even it so it really isn't fair to assume that Atlanta would always remain the smaller city.

[Trae]

How many Katrina evacuess now reside in Atlanta? I have heard at least 100,000 (maybe less)?

[TexasBoi]

I see no city passing Dallas for a very long time. They grew at 139k last year but they are averaging around 150k per year so far this decade.I'm pretty sure it has picked up this year. When the numbes come out from NCTOG, the metroplex will probably be around 6.35 million.

[NDtexan]

I see no city passing Dallas for a very long time. They grew at 139k last year but they are averaging around 150k per year so far this decade.I'm pretty sure it has picked up this year. When the numbes come out from NCTOG, the metroplex will probably be around 6.35 million.

They're already out. The 16 county North Texas region is estimated at 6,406,450.

[TexasBoi]

Yep..I just found it Dallasmetropolis and was about to post it. Thought they usually came out around April, though. But at 6.4 million for the Dallas CSA, it will be a while before anyone in the southeast catches them.

[SteveD]

I see no city passing Dallas for a very long time. They grew at 139k last year but they are averaging around 150k per year so far this decade.I'm pretty sure it has picked up this year. When the numbes come out from NCTOG, the metroplex will probably be around 6.35 million.


I agree with you. Houston and Atlanta are both, at the moment, growing much faster than the metroplex, but, the metroplex is so much larger it would be a while before either caught up. And that's assuming growth patterns don't change, which they easily could. All three, Houston, Atlanta and Dallas, are quickly leaving Miami behind...

[Trae]

Sure are. The Metroplex has actually grew faster than Houston and Atlanta since 2000. They are blessed to really have two different metros. Fort Worth's side is growing (almost faster than Dallas'), and Dallas' side is growing. Houston and Atlanta are getting big by themselves. By 2010, I expect Houston to pass Philly, and Atlanta to just be a few thousand behind. I wouldn't be too surprised if Atlanta's CSA passed up Philly, though.

It feels like Miami has almost stopped growing (except for condos).

[SteveD]

Here's the absolute numbers of estimated new residents, and percent growth of each CSA, from July 1 2000 through July 1 2006

Atlanta CSA 894,709 19.5% (5,478,667-4,583,958)
Dallas CSA 882,129 16.0% (6,406,450-5,524,321
Houston CSA 800,005 16.5% (5,641,077-4,841,072)

Dallas trails Atlanta in both categories, and trails Atlanta and Houston in rate of growth, since 2000. Atlanta has added more people, and has a higher rate of growth than both, since 2000. Obviously, though, as shown in the numbers above, all three are growing astonishingly quickly.

[Trae]

800,000+ for all three! That is a lot of people.

[dante2308]

There were an estimated peak of 84,000 refugees in Atlanta to answer your question Trae.

[Stratosphere 2020]

800,000+ for all three! That is a lot of people.


Yeah it is shocking. I wonder how much growth can all these cities accomodate.

[scguy]

I wonder if the esimates factor in the huge amount of undoc. immigrants all three of these cities have. I mean in many apartment communities there are an average of 6-7 persons living in 2 bedrooms...in almost every single apartment! Im sure they do someway, factor them in, but since there are so many uncounted during census counts I wonder how far away from the true numbers the counts are.

[Reverberation]

Many of the New Orleans evacuees have returned. I'm curious how many of them still reside in Houston.

[dante2308]

^^^Which makes you wonder how accurate these estimates are at all. They could be 100,000 off either way once we look back from the 2010 census. No use deriving too much meaning from them right now.

Atlanta seems to be very low on international immigrants. According to this map:

http://www.ajc.com/metro/content/metro/stories/StateMetroCensusMap.html

only about 25k residents who moved in last year were immigrating from outside the US. In fact, less than 200,000 residents in Georgia were foreign born as of 2000. That number has been steadily rising since, but it goes to show that Atlanta is quite different than other booming cities. Internal migration and births over deaths makes up more than 90% of the growth of the city.

Houston, Dallas, and Miami owe a huge deal of their growth to immigrants and their children. Not to make a value judgment, but it basically means that a lot of the reasons that Atlanta grows are different. It makes a huge difference knowing that without huge immigration numbers, Atlanta is still the fastest growing large metro in the South in raw numbers and percentage growth. It also means that Atlanta could grow even faster if it were to attract more immigrants.

I think as this city grows, we need to focus on the quality of life. Traffic doesn't seem to be the biggest problem we face. The biggest problem is actually the supply of fresh water. All else constant, the ARC has estimated we have until 2030 before our sources dry up. After water comes getting people our of their cars and on their feet. Not even the proposed double-decked I-285 will solve traffic in the long term. We are a young city. We can use our God-given legs. I'm sure if we continue to offer the choice, people will live in communities that don't require 4 hours a day on the road. I don't think mass transit is a fix all though.

[Trae]

Atlanta is real young right now. It is going through what Houston went through in the 70's and 80's. Back then, Houston mostly added domestic residents, like Atlanta is doing now.

[sprtsluvr8]

I'm thinking that 25,000 new residents from outside the U.S. in one year is pretty substantial, is it not? It sounds like a large number to me...if not, then I can't understand the huge number of students enrolling in area school systems who aren't English proficient...

[sprtsluvr8]

How much younger is Atlanta than Houston? I think they were both incorporated in the 1830's...

[alon504]

It hurts. I love Atlanta so much and visit often. I hate to see a large amount of humans invade a city that I have enjoyed for years. I see nothing positive with fast growth. But, I see the city going downhill from here on out as far as pertaining to quality of life. Why people think that more people is a good thing is staggering to me. Unless it changes your income, everything else about it is bad, IMO. You'll only see less of the blue sky than you already see....Just keep the population away from areas like Dahlonega. When it get's there, I'm going to stop my visits. Enough of beautiful Metro Atlanta has already been destroyed. Please keep it limited for people like me.

[sprtsluvr8]

What action should the city take to stop people from moving the the Atlanta area?

[alon504]

What action should the city take to stop people from moving the the Atlanta area?

There is nothing that they can do..it is too late. Visitors can only hope that places like Stone Mountain and areas N. of the city are protected. Millions of beautiful pines have been chopped. I would love to see the other millions saved. Atlanta has been indulged with a pride of economics, but, people are blind to what has been destroyed. There are so many new people, the appreciation of what was there before they arrived is long gone. They never knew what was there before they arrived. But, I do.

[dante2308]

I'm thinking that 25,000 new residents from outside the U.S. in one year is pretty substantial, is it not? It sounds like a large number to me...if not, then I can't understand the huge number of students enrolling in area school systems who aren't English proficient...

25,000 out of 250,000 tacked on to the CSA is not very substantial at all.

Trae, Atlanta is really only 3 years behind Houston population wise. Its growth patterns are ahead of Houston so predicting Atlanta's future can't be done with that comparison. We are all enjoying the 2000's now. There isn't a lag time. Atlanta is in a different place geographically and demographically and thats all there is to it.

[dante2308]

It hurts. I love Atlanta so much and visit often. I hate to see a large amount of humans invade a city that I have enjoyed for years. I see nothing positive with fast growth. But, I see the city going downhill from here on out as far as pertaining to quality of life. Why people think that more people is a good thing is staggering to me. Unless it changes your income, everything else about it is bad, IMO. You'll only see less of the blue sky than you already see....Just keep the population away from areas like Dahlonega. When it get's there, I'm going to stop my visits. Enough of beautiful Metro Atlanta has already been destroyed. Please keep it limited for people like me.

If you want to save the trees, its time to stand up and tell your local leaders. I'm pretty sure an active group can make strides to creating more protected areas. The "smart-growth" wave sweeping the city is very receptive to having a lot of trees around. Everyone knows they add a little something that keep the place beautiful.

[sprtsluvr8]

I thought Atlanta grew by 166,000 last year? Either way, I would say that 10% of new Atlanta residents coming from outside of the U.S. is substantial...

[dante2308]

That was the MSA, not the CSA. It is substantial, but it pales in comparison to the growth patterns of Texan or Floridian cites.

[Trae]

25,000 out of 250,000 tacked on to the CSA is not very substantial at all.

Trae, Atlanta is really only 3 years behind Houston population wise. Its growth patterns are ahead of Houston so predicting Atlanta's future can't be done with that comparison. We are all enjoying the 2000's now. There isn't a lag time. Atlanta is in a different place geographically and demographically and thats all there is to it.

I was meaning the oil boom. Houston grew up faster than Atlanta did in the 70's and 80's (besides the rail). That was when our building boom at started. I think Atlanta's is really just getting underway.

They are growing at about the same size year in and year out. Atlanta being the only major city within a few hours of any above one million helps it a lot. That is why most of its growth is domestic. Demographically, Atlanta is mostly a white and black city (like Dallas). Houston and Miami aren't.

[dante2308]

I was meaning the oil boom. Houston grew up faster than Atlanta did in the 70's and 80's (besides the rail). That was when our building boom at started. I think Atlanta's is really just getting underway.

They are growing at about the same size year in and year out. Atlanta being the only major city within a few hours of any above one million helps it a lot. That is why most of its growth is domestic. Demographically, Atlanta is mostly a white and black city (like Dallas). Houston and Miami aren't.

Thats a reasonable point of view. I would say that Atlanta's building boom happened during the early to mid 90's, lagged at the turn of the century and is playing catch up now.

As for competition, Jacksonville, Charlotte, Birmingham, Greenville, and Nashville all have larger metros than 1,000,000 and are all within 260 miles of Atlanta (141 miles to Birmingham, 221 miles to Charlotte). Dallas
and Houston are 223 miles apart and Houston to Austin is about 146 miles.

I guess what helps Atlanta is being the largest metro for 260 miles, not the only. Here is a table made using Google Earth's ruler (city center to city center) of cities within 250 miles of either. I started the population cut-off at 300,000.

City Distance to Houston Pop(MSA)
Beaumont-Port Authur 78 miles 385,000
Austin 146 miles 1.45 million
San Antonio 190 miles 1.8 million
Corpus Christi 182 miles 409,000
Shreveport 214 miles 378,000
Dallas/Ft. Worth 223 miles 5.8 million



City Distance to Atlanta Pop(MSA)
Macon 77 miles 380,000
Chattanooga 104 miles 476,000
Augusta 139 miles 520,000
Birmingham 141 miles 1.1 million
Huntsville-Decatur 142 miles 510,000
Knoxville 155 miles 655,000
Greenville 192 miles 1.2 million
Columbia 197 miles 703,000
Nashville 215 miles 1.5 million
Charlotte 221 miles 1.8 million
Savannah 224 miles 310,000

The point is that Atlanta is not as isolated as one would think. There are 7 MSA's over 500,000 within 250 miles of Atlanta and only 3 within 250 miles of Houston. 3 of those MSA's are closer to Atlanta than Austin is to Houston. Surprisingly, Atlanta has more metros over 1,000,000 within a few hours than Houston.

[SteveD]

Thats a reasonable point of view. I would say that Atlanta's building boom happened during the early to mid 90's, lagged at the turn of the century and is playing catch up now.

As for competition, Jacksonville, Charlotte, Birmingham, and Nashville all have larger metros than 1,000,000 and are all within 260 miles of Atlanta (130 miles to Birmingham, 205 miles to Charlotte). Dallas and Houston are 200 miles apart and Houston to Austin is about 125 miles.

I guess what helps Atlanta is being the largest metro for 260 miles, not the only.


You must have meant 250 for Charlotte. I drive that route all the time. No way is it 205. Maybe if you're starting from Lawrenceville or Dacula, but not from downtown.

[sprtsluvr8]

Atlanta has been through a few building booms, the current one starting around 1990...

[SteveD]

Thats a reasonable point of view. I would say that Atlanta's building boom happened during the early to mid 90's, lagged at the turn of the century and is playing catch up now.

As for competition, Jacksonville, Charlotte, Birmingham, and Nashville all have larger metros than 1,000,000 and are all within 260 miles of Atlanta (141 miles to Birmingham, 221 miles to Charlotte). Dallas
and Houston are 223 miles apart and Houston to Austin is about 146 miles.

I guess what helps Atlanta is being the largest metro for 260 miles, not the only. Here is a table made using Google Earth's ruler (city center to city center) of cities within 250 miles of either. I started the population cut-off at 300,000.

City Distance to Houston Pop(MSA)
Austin 146 miles 1.45 million
San Antonio 190 miles 1.8 million
Corpus Christi 182 miles 409,000
Shreveport 214 miles 378,000
Dallas/Ft. Worth 223 miles 5.8 million



City Distance to Atlanta Pop(MSA)
Macon 77 miles 380,000
Chattanooga 104 miles 476,000
Augusta 139 miles 520,000
Birmingham 141 miles 1.1 million
Huntsville-Decatur 142 miles 510,000
Knoxville 155 miles 655,000
Columbia 197 miles 703,000
Nashville 215 miles 1.5 million
Charlotte 221 miles 1.8 million
Savannah 224 miles 310,000

The point is that Atlanta is not as isolated as one would think. There are 7 MSA's over 500,000 within 250 miles of Atlanta and only 3 within 250 miles of Houston. 3 of those MSA's are closer to Atlanta than Austin is to Houston.

That's fascinating, Dante...thanks for posting that. I've always thought both Atlanta AND Houston were isolated. Atlanta, since there's nothing else of comparable size until you hit DC to the north, Miami to the south, and Houston to the west, and Houston, because Texas is so damn big! I never realized there were so many mid-sized metros so close to Atlanta! I think another part of the misperceptions is simply that Dallas and Houston, both sunbelt monsters, are only 220 or so miles apart. Can you imagine if there was another beast the size of Atlanta just 220 miles away? The closest thing we have here in Atlanta is Charlotte, but it's just 1/3 the size of Atlanta.

[Trae]

Above 300,000, Houston has Dallas-Fort Worth (6.3M), Austin (just went above 1.5M), San Antonio (60K shy of 2M), Beaumont-Port Arthur (just above 300,000), Shreveport (above 300,000), and Corpus Christi.

The cities closer to Atlanta are really small compared to it. There are a lot of mid-sized cities, which is good, but DFW to the north of Houston has more population than all of them combined (minus Charlotte). Add to the Austin and San Antonio, and it is pretty crowded here in Texas (also not counting our mid-sized cities which compare in size to Georgia's). The closer Texas metro to 1M now is El Paso. It is almost at 800,000, but it is 800 miles west of Houston. Talk about distance.

[dante2308]

Above 300,000, Houston has Dallas-Fort Worth (6.3M), Austin (just went above 1.5M), San Antonio (60K shy of 2M), Beaumont-Port Arthur (just above 300,000), Shreveport (above 300,000), and Corpus Christi.

The cities closer to Atlanta are really small compared to it. There are a lot of mid-sized cities, which is good, but DFW to the north of Houston has more population than all of them combined (minus Charlotte). Add to the Austin and San Antonio, and it is pretty crowded here in Texas (also not counting our mid-sized cities which compare in size to Georgia's. The closer Texas metro to 1M now is El Paso. It is almost at 800,000, but it is 800 miles east of Houston. Talk about distance.

Beaumont slipped the radar because Wikipedia listed it as 113,000 without a corresponding MSA total. You are right, I will add that city to the list. As for your totals for Dallas and San Antonio, I used MSA's across the board with the exception of Huntsville-Decatur which is referred to as a twin city and had only a CSA of two MSA. CSA totals would have been bigger for Charlotte(over 2 million) and Nashville had I used it. Personally, knowing what the CSA of Atlanta includes, I'm inclined to believe that CSA's are bloated regions used to describe people who inter-commute within the same planet as a major city. (I'm kidding, but i still think CSA's are always a little too big to represent any meaningful value).

Nashville and Charlotte are about the same size as Austin and San Antonio if a little bigger. What it amounts to is two large Texan cities, two medium large ones, and three mirco-sized ones.

Atlanta's regional breakdown is one large city, two medium large ones, two medium ones, and 3 small ones, and several very small ones. It seems like Atlanta is more or less filling a vacuum because it got ahead of the curve.

Of course, most of the larger cities near Atlanta are growing phenomenally so we could see some large metros(3-5mill+) spring up in the coming decades. Within 300 miles of Atlanta are Jacksonville and Louisville which are both over 1,000,000.

[coyotetrickster]

How much younger is Atlanta than Houston? I think they were both incorporated in the 1830's...

Depends on how you consider the concept of being incorporated (and it was a very different process in the 1800s. Ft. Peachtree was established in 1814, where Peachtree creek flows into the Chattahoochee River. A short time later a small standing village built to serve the railroad workers extending lines from Decatur (already a small town situated on a trading route between the Cherokee nation and the creek nation and a road south to Macon and Savannah), all before Texas even declared independence from Mexico. The land for the town that became Houston wasn't purchased until 1836, but the first 'white' settler (there's an interesting bias from the western mindset), of what was Atlanta (Hardy Ivey) built his house circa 1830. The final negotiations over the zero mile post, where the three rails lines being built would terminate was finally settled around 1836-35. The Allen brothers (the gentlemen who purchased what would become houston didn't get the area surveyed until 1837. The Republic of Texas chartered Houston later that same year.

But the commercial enterprises that would eventually lead to the town of Marthasville were already in place before Houston was chartered, so Atlanta is about five to 10 years older than Houston.

[dante2308]

You must have meant 250 for Charlotte. I drive that route all the time. No way is it 205. Maybe if you're starting from Lawrenceville or Dacula, but not from downtown.

221 as the crow flies. My first measurement was from suburb to suburb and I got 205. I changed it with the edit for consistency when I decided to make that table. As a note, it is easy to miss cities. I missed Greenville the first time around and it turned out to have passed the million mark.

[sprtsluvr8]

Thank you...so can we say that Atlanta isn't "real young" compared to Houston? I questioned the validity of that statement from an earlier post, no matter which era was being referenced. I wouldn't consider Houston a more mature city than Atlanta in any way or in any decade. I think they are fairly even...

[dante2308]

Trae, DFW isn't larger than all the cities I listed near Atlanta combined even if I cut it off at 500,000. 5.8 million versus 8 million. Sorry to make a new post, but that point was invalid.

New list:

City Distance to Houston Pop(MSA)
Beaumont-Port Authur 78 miles 385,000
Austin 146 miles 1.45 million
Killeen-Temple-Fort Hood 171 miles 351,000
San Antonio 190 miles 1.8 million
Corpus Christi 182 miles 409,000
Shreveport 214 miles 378,000
Dallas/Ft. Worth 223 miles 5.8 million



City Distance to Atlanta Pop(MSA)
Macon 77 miles 380,000
Chattanooga 104 miles 476,000
Augusta 139 miles 520,000
Birmingham 141 miles 1.1 million
Huntsville-Decatur 142 miles 510,000
Knoxville 155 miles 655,000
Greenville 192 miles 1.2 million
Columbia 197 miles 703,000
Nashville 215 miles 1.5 million
Charlotte 221 miles 1.8 million
Savannah 224 miles 310,000

New List with a 500,000 cut-off:

City Distance to Houston Pop(MSA)
Austin 146 miles 1.45 million
San Antonio 190 miles 1.8 million
Dallas/Ft. Worth 223 miles 5.8 million



City Distance to Atlanta Pop(MSA)
Augusta 139 miles 520,000
Birmingham 141 miles 1.1 million
Huntsville-Decatur 142 miles 510,000
Knoxville 155 miles 655,000
Greenville 192 miles 1.2 million
Columbia 197 miles 703,000
Nashville 215 miles 1.5 million
Charlotte 221 miles 1.8 million

[Trae]

Yeah it is. I added them all up. I took out Charlotte, though (like my post says). If you add all if them up (but exclude Charlotte), it comes out to be a little over 100,000 more than the new DFW numbers.

A good post from HAIF:

Philly is at 5.8 million. Since 2000 we have gained 824,000, so I think by 2010 we might be slightly ahead of Philly.

The problem with Atlanta is that whereas they are the undisputed capital of the Southeast, Houston and Dallas are the co-capitals of the South Central region, and thus tend to eat into each other's gains.

[TexasBoi]

The Killeen-Ft. Hood area is 190 miles west of Houston and has around 330,000 so add them as well. And the Dallas MSA is now officially over 6 million.

[dante2308]

I will add Killeen. I used 2005 for all the populations so until a list of metro as of 2006 pops up, I will stick with those numbers.

[dante2308]

Yeah it is. I added them all up. I took out Charlotte, though (like my post says). If you add all if them up (but exclude Charlotte), it comes out to be a little over 100,000 more than the new DFW numbers.

A good post from HAIF:

5.8 million is the total size of the Dallas/Ft. Worth MSA as of 2005 which was the census date I used for all the metros in question. No one has complied a list as of 2006 yet. 7.96 million(the total) minus Charlotte(1.8 million) still leaves 6.16 million. Your post claimed that DFW was larger than all those metros. You also claimed that there were no metros over 1 million near Atlanta. You also claimed Atlanta's building boom was just getting underway. Lets make sure to correct (or even admit) our mistakes here.

[Trae]

No, not at all:

http://www.nctcog.org/ris/demographics/population.asp

DFW is at 6,406,450, with a net gain of 135,300. DFW was 6,075,000 in 2005.

I did claim that there were no metros over one million near Atlanta. I was wrong, I forgot about Birmingham. Didn't know it had just reached the one million mark. I thought it was still in the hundreds of thousands. The midsized cities help out, though.

[kardon]

I was meaning the oil boom. Houston grew up faster than Atlanta did in the 70's and 80's (besides the rail). That was when our building boom at started. I think Atlanta's is really just getting underway.

They are growing at about the same size year in and year out. Atlanta being the only major city within a few hours of any above one million helps it a lot. That is why most of its growth is domestic. Demographically, Atlanta is mostly a white and black city (like Dallas). Houston and Miami aren't.

I'm sorry...but you speak as if you know everything about Dallas, Houston, and Atlanta. You don't even know half the story. You only know what you read... which is 60% inaccurate. And from what I know, you don't live in neither city.

[dante2308]

No, not at all:

http://www.nctcog.org/ris/demographics/population.asp

DFW is at 6,406,450, with a net gain of 135,300. DFW was 6,075,000 in 2005.

I did claim that there were no metros over one million near Atlanta. I was wrong, I forgot about Birmingham. Didn't know it had just reached the one million mark. I thought it was still in the hundreds of thousands. The midsized cities help out, though.

I looked at your link and I don't know where those figures define as DFW, but the MSA values are significantly lower. Charlotte, Nashville, and Greenville are all near Atlanta and definitely closer than DFW is to Houston. I do admit the Atlanta is filling the void for its region, but I think its only the first city to rise up in the "New South."

[Trae]

I'm sorry...but you speak as if you know everything about Dallas, Houston, and Atlanta. You don't even know half the story. You only know what you read... which is 60% inaccurate. And from what I know, you don't live in neither city.

Yeah okay. Believe what you want :rolleyes: . I have never lived in Dallas nor Atlanta, just visited those cities (Atlanta especially). I stay in Houston. I doubt you know more about Houston than I do. I'm 16 (Sophmore in HS), so don't expect me to know as much as some of the older posters here.

[Trae]

I looked at your link and I don't know where those figures define as DFW, but the MSA values are significantly lower. Charlotte, Nashville, and Greenville are all near Atlanta and definitely closer than DFW is to Houston.

You would just add up the counties and get the DFW metro figure. Those cities you listed are closer to Atlanta than Houston is to Dallas (except for Charlotte and Nashville, but ten-twenty miles aren't too much of a difference).

My point was that those cities don't compare in size to DFW.

[vjhe]

My point was that those cities don't compare in size to DFW.

*slightly off subject*

In size, population, nor power. With all due respect to places like Knoxville, Birmingham (my hometown), Macon, and even Nashville, from an outsiders perspective, at this point I still say Atlanta has no competition (I feel the same about Chicago, despite it's proximity to Milwaukee, Inidanapolis, and St.Louis). Atlanta is the powerhouse of that entire region and those other cities do not pose the level of competition for it that Houston or Dallas face from each other, not to mention the ever growing prominence of the Austin/San Antonio area (it takes me 45 minutes to drive between cities so they are in the same area in my eyes ;)).

IMO, Atlanta is set to become the Chicago of the south in terms of there not being competition and drawing from the entire region. I think the fact there is relatively no competition for Atlanta has been a major factor in it's growth, population wise and business wise.

[dante2308]

*slightly off subject*

In size, population, nor power. With all due respect to places like Knoxville, Birmingham (my hometown), Macon, and even Nashville, from an outsiders perspective, at this point I still say Atlanta has no competition (I feel the same about Chicago, despite it's proximity to Milwaukee, Inidanapolis, and St.Louis). Atlanta is the powerhouse of that entire region and those other cities do not pose the level of competition for it that Houston or Dallas face from each other, not to mention the ever growing prominence of the Austin/San Antonio area (it takes me 45 minutes to drive between cities so they are in the same area in my eyes ;)).

IMO, Atlanta is set to become the Chicago of the south in terms of there not being competition and drawing from the entire region. I think the fact there is relatively no competition for Atlanta has been a major factor in it's growth, population wise and business wise.

I agree of course. Atlanta is not really competing with any of the cities near it and wont be for decades. The South needed a big commercial center and here it is. It isn't able to draw too much though because of all the smaller cities around it. I was really just correcting an exaggeration. Nashville and Charlotte are starting to nab some things from Atlanta, but more or less, they just give us somewhere to trade resources and ideas with.

You can expect some 7.5-8 million or more in the Atlanta CSA by 2030. The ARC's 10 county region is at 4 mill and they expect it to grow to 6 mill in that time period. I really wonder what that will mean for this area. I hope the quality of life doesn't suffer.

[scguy]

No, not at all:

http://www.nctcog.org/ris/demographics/population.asp

DFW is at 6,406,450, with a net gain of 135,300. DFW was 6,075,000 in 2005.

I did claim that there were no metros over one million near Atlanta. I was wrong, I forgot about Birmingham. Didn't know it had just reached the one million mark. I thought it was still in the hundreds of thousands. The midsized cities help out, though.
What about Greenville/Spartanburg/Anderson. I dont know how they are counting it now but the whole area which is all pretty much grown up together has over 1.2 million and its just an hour and a half outside of Atlanta.

[scguy]

It hurts. I love Atlanta so much and visit often. I hate to see a large amount of humans invade a city that I have enjoyed for years. I see nothing positive with fast growth. But, I see the city going downhill from here on out as far as pertaining to quality of life. Why people think that more people is a good thing is staggering to me. Unless it changes your income, everything else about it is bad, IMO. You'll only see less of the blue sky than you already see....Just keep the population away from areas like Dahlonega. When it get's there, I'm going to stop my visits. Enough of beautiful Metro Atlanta has already been destroyed. Please keep it limited for people like me.
Sounds very selfish to me.

[Pillsbury Doughboy]

^ Oh, so I should feel bad about moving there? Seems very selfish to me. ;)

[alon504]

Sounds very selfish to me.

What on Earth is selfish? I want to know why people think it is great when more people congregate and live in a certain area? Why is it more exciting? What is so great about a new building? It's still a spot on the planet Earth. I don't find it particularly exciting to see New Orleans have new developments. I DO like developments that promote bringing people back home that were displaced by Hurricane Katrina, but, it seems to me that more people is an insult and desecration of the place that you live. I don't really want anymore people to move to my area. There are enough here, already. Why would I want more? It seems fictitious to think that more human beings in your area is a great thing. I used to think it was great, but, as I look at it more, it seems more stupid, and certainly a negative for future generations. Maybe, I'm wrong, but, I'd rather see people move to the Great West or Alaska. We have enough people in the Southeast. We really don't need anymore, IMO. My personal income continues to grow and my life gets better without needing new people in my area. Why should I want more of the environment destroyed in my area? Why should I wish people to be moving all the way up to the mountains in Atlanta? Why should I be glad that subdivisions in N. Atlanta are being built in areas that I am used to canoeing and camping? I don't find that to be a positive, at all. WHY IS ATLANTA A BETTER PLACE WITH 5 MILLION PEOPLE THAN WHEN IT HAD 2 MILLION? That is what I would really like answered.

[Gallup]

You guys know more about all this stuff than I do. What is the difference between an MSA and a CSA?

[atlantaguy]

What on Earth is selfish? I want to know why people think it is great when more people congregate and live in a certain area? Why is it more exciting? What is so great about a new building? It's still a spot on the planet Earth. I don't find it particularly exciting to see New Orleans have new developments. I DO like developments that promote bringing people back home that were displaced by Hurricane Katrina, but, it seems to me that more people is an insult and desecration of the place that you live. I don't really want anymore people to move to my area. There are enough here, already. Why would I want more? It seems fictitious to think that more human beings in your area is a great thing. I used to think it was great, but, as I look at it more, it seems more stupid, and certainly a negative for future generations. Maybe, I'm wrong, but, I'd rather see people move to the Great West or Alaska. We have enough people in the Southeast. We really don't need anymore, IMO. My personal income continues to grow and my life gets better without needing new people in my area. Why should I want more of the environment destroyed in my area? Why should I wish people to be moving all the way up to the mountains in Atlanta? Why should I be glad that subdivisions in N. Atlanta are being built in areas that I am used to canoeing and camping? I don't find that to be a positive, at all. WHY IS ATLANTA A BETTER PLACE WITH 5 MILLION PEOPLE THAN WHEN IT HAD 2 MILLION? That is what I would really like answered.

It's not better - just different. Look Alon, none of us like all of this sprawl that goes on and on. For better or worse, the world has discovered us, and they are moving here in droves. The world likes a house and yard, and that is not going to change until we run out of oil. I personally don't care if one more person moves here to the Metro, but I would certainly not mind a couple hundred thousand more inside the Perimeter - and there is room for them.

What's really sad is that the tree cover is starting to seem better and better all the time INSIDE the Perimeter. I find that very sad myself.

[SteveD]

You guys know more about all this stuff than I do. What is the difference between an MSA and a CSA?

MSA=Metropolitan Statistical Area
CSA=Consolidated Statistical Area (or CBSA, Core Based Statistical Area)

CSAs are larger than MSAs. Not every MSA has a corresponding CSA.

see here http://www.census.gov/population/www/estimates/aboutmetro.html for more info.

[jcathens]

^^more like how much water can these cities accomodate

[Andrea]

WHY IS ATLANTA A BETTER PLACE WITH 5 MILLION PEOPLE THAN WHEN IT HAD 2 MILLION? That is what I would really like answered.

Well, arguably it is not any better. But you can't overlook the fact that we have a long tradition of boosterism here, going back almost to the very beginning. We love our fair city and promoting is as much in our blood as pine trees and expressways.

[gskreet33]

I find it too bad that we don't have more of a pro-Atlanta governor. Sonny seems more interested in Waycross than he does Atlanta. Barnes was an opposite example but then he got all crazy and went a bit too far. We need a balanced approach to meeting the needs of the metro as well as the rest of GA. 5 million people is great on paper but isn't so much fun when you just sit in traffic all day long because everyone keeps putting off improving and expanding infrastructure.

[Andrea]

Barnes was an opposite example but then he got all crazy and went a bit too far.

Roy Barnes tried to take away our Confederate flag, which dated all the way back to 1956, just after Brown v. Board of Education was decided. It's as if he felt that Georgians no longer approved of symbolizing the state by its reaction to the school integregation decision.

[alon504]

It's not better - just different. Look Alon, none of us like all of this sprawl that goes on and on. For better or worse, the world has discovered us, and they are moving here in droves. The world likes a house and yard, and that is not going to change until we run out of oil. I personally don't care if one more person moves here to the Metro, but I would certainly not mind a couple hundred thousand more inside the Perimeter - and there is room for them.

What's really sad is that the tree cover is starting to seem better and better all the time INSIDE the Perimeter. I find that very sad myself.

I just love the mountains in N. Georgia so much....it is one of my hiding spots, that's all. You really don't want people to find your hiding spot or make your hiding spot disappear...you get my gist?

[atlantaguy]

^Oh, absolutely! I feel the same way, that's why I was so outraged by the idea of the Outer Perimeter and why I am outraged again that "they" are bringing it back - only this time it's even further North.

My Dad lives out in the sprawl-crap of Eastern Gwinnett and it actually sickens me every time I go out there. It's slash & burn, slash & burn over and over again. The developers cut down every damn tree - acres and acres of them, and then contruct these hideous neighborhoods with repulsive names like Autumn Acres & River Chase. I'm told that Gwinnett has a pretty decent tree ordinance, but the developers just pay the fines as part of doing business - and then go on to the next pretty wooded spot they can find and slash & burn.................

[gskreet33]

Roy Barnes tried to take away our Confederate flag, which dated all the way back to 1956, just after Brown v. Board of Education was decided. It's as if he felt that Georgians no longer approved of symbolizing the state by its reaction to the school integregation decision.

I think that the northern Arc and the 400 tollway law changes did him in more than that 1956 flag.

[Andrea]

... the 400 tollway law changes did him in more ....

What was that about? I was thinking the tolls were set in stone by the bond issue until 2011.

[on the beach]

What metros have the most growth potentiial?

[on the beach]

in land area.

[kardon]

Roy Barnes tried to take away our Confederate flag, which dated all the way back to 1956, just after Brown v. Board of Education was decided. It's as if he felt that Georgians no longer approved of symbolizing the state by its reaction to the school integregation decision.

"our" confederate flag??? I'm so glad that flag is gone...

[dante2308]

What metros have the most growth potentiial?

Any city has huge growth potential really. New York proper got as big as it is on a few islands. Manhattan is bigger than a lot of US cities and is really just 20 square miles.

If you were asking which could grow the largest geographically, then I would say there really isn't a limit on most CSA. Miami seems to be one of the most limited but if they really wanted to take over the non-protected everglades, they could.

[SlidellWx]

I lived in Newnan before moving to Slidell for a promotion in 2004. I am not surprised to see the new numbers for the Atlanta area. The amount of development that was taking place in Coweta County was absolutely mind boggling to me in the 2 years I lived there. I had never seen so many houses and shopping centers get built in such a short amount of time. Newnan felt like a small town when I moved there, but had turned into a city by the time I left.

[Pillsbury Doughboy]

"our" confederate flag??? I'm so glad that flag is gone...

So am I. How did they leave that thing up there for so long? Zell tried back in the early 90s to take it down (back before Republican spies had siezed his brain). When Atlanta hosts the Final Four very soon, just remember, if the people in south Georgia had their way, the flag would still be up there, and that tournament would not be held in Atlanta (and rightly so). Purdue represents south Georgia and he makes me sick.

[dante2308]

http://www.demographia.com/db-2025metroalpha.htm

According to projections, the Atlanta MSA was supposed to be at 4,765,400 by the year 2010 and a whopping 5,510,400 by 2025. Of course, by 2006, the MSA had grown to 5,138,223 which either means a huge die off coming soon or we way overshot projections.

Seems from the table that Dallas was more or less in line with reality interestingly but still way underestimated. I hope we don't plan according to the census predictions. Even the ARC's prediction of 6 million in the 10-county area by 2030 seems low. Someone forgot to teach someone what it means to grow exponentially. Atlanta shouldn't surprise people after three decades of it.

[SteveD]

Dante...yes, that's true...both the Atlanta MSA and CSA have been growing MUCH faster the census bureau had projected as recently as five or six years ago. Also, the definition of Atlanta's MSA (counties included) was expanded in 2000, so the starting number shown there for Demographia is actually less than what the census bureau has on file for the Atlanta MSA in 2000. I'm a population stat freak. I always go directly to the census bureau web site for population stats, not an outside party like demographia who is restating them.

Another curious note about census projections is that the census bureau continues to show North Carolina surpassing Georgia in population in the coming decades. There'd have to be a pretty dramatic shift in current growth patterns for that to happen, since in recent years Georgia has been widening the margin between itself and North Carolina at a pretty rapid clip.

[Trae]

Dante...yes, that's true...both the Atlanta MSA and CSA have been growing MUCH faster the census bureau had projected as recently as five or six years ago. Also, the definition of Atlanta's MSA (counties included) was expanded in 2000, so the starting number shown there for Demographia is actually less than what the census bureau has on file for the Atlanta MSA in 2000. I'm a population stat freak. I always go directly to the census bureau web site for population stats, not an outside party like demographia who is restating them.

Another curious note about census projections is that the census bureau continues to show North Carolina surpassing Georgia in population in the coming decades. There'd have to be a pretty dramatic shift in current growth patterns for that to happen, since in recent years Georgia has been widening the margin between itself and North Carolina at a pretty rapid clip.

Having one main city is not going to keep Georgia ahead of North Carolina. That state has three metros of over one million, with Charlotte's CSA over two million (though some are in South Carolina). Having an even population like that throughout the state, as well has the metro areas within the hundreds of thousands, it shouldn't be a big surprise if(when) it happens.

[SteveD]

Having one main city is not going to keep Georgia ahead of North Carolina. That state has three metros of over one million, with Charlotte's CSA over two million (though some are in South Carolina). Having an even population like that throughout the state, as well has the metro areas within the hundreds of thousands, it shouldn't be a big surprise if(when) it happens.

Well, Trae, that's basically stating that you don't believe that Atlanta will continue its gangbusters growth, but there's nothing to suggest that it won't. I'm sure that's what the census bureau thinks, in projecting North Carolina to pass Georgia 20 or 30 years down the road. Georgia's coastal counties are about to explode with new growth, though, and Augusta, Savannah, Macon, and Columbus aren't exactly slaggards, so I really think it's a long shot for North Carolina to catch Georgia in the time frame the census bureau is currently suggesting. The census bureau has already proven how wrong they were about projecting Atlanta's growth.

[dante2308]

Having one main city is not going to keep Georgia ahead of North Carolina. That state has three metros of over one million, with Charlotte's CSA over two million (though some are in South Carolina). Having an even population like that throughout the state, as well has the metro areas within the hundreds of thousands, it shouldn't be a big surprise if(when) it happens.

Well, if Atlanta is bigger than all those combined and growing faster than all those combined, it really doesn't matter.

[kardon]

Having one main city is not going to keep Georgia ahead of North Carolina. That state has three metros of over one million, with Charlotte's CSA over two million (though some are in South Carolina). Having an even population like that throughout the state, as well has the metro areas within the hundreds of thousands, it shouldn't be a big surprise if(when) it happens.

I'm sorry...but you are 16yrs old. You know everything there is to know about Houston, Dallas, and Atlanta. Now North Carolina??? Amazing.

[Trae]

I'm sorry...but you are 16yrs old. You know everything there is to know about Houston, Dallas, and Atlanta. Now North Carolina??? Amazing.

When did I say I know everything? I just said something that I think might happen. Why all this hate from you. You just blow me off because I'm 16. You might be surprised at what you can learn from someone younger than you.

[john3eblover]

you guys, this thread is amazing. im so glad we have people like Steve, Dante and Trae to look up all these stats for us :-) I'm far too lazy, its all I can do just to read it all. but im loving it, thats fo sho

[tuffaso]

I just think it's soooo cool that the Southern half of the U.S. seems to be getting most of the population growth. Dallas/Ft. Worth, Houston, and Atlanta are mega metros obviously but I think it's also neat that other cities like Charlotte, Nashville, and Austin for example are growing as well (on a much lower scale than the big 3 above of course).

[realm0854]

atlantans underestimate the potential of the north carolina economy. i dont foresee atlanta regional growth tapering off any time in the near future but i am certain that north carolina's growth is going to increase rapidly during the next 2-3 decades. charlotte and raleigh are propelling that growth. no one would be foolish to think that either city will become a serious rival to atlanta in terms of size or regional importance but it is fairly likely that their combined future growth will push north carolina ahead of georgia within 20-30 years or so.

[LoveAtlanta]

who wants to live in Charlotte? Charlotte will never be like Atlanta, cause of the quality of people. You will never have any music bands or hip hop industry.

[Tombstoner]

who wants to live in Charlotte? Charlotte will never be like Atlanta, cause of the quality of people. You will never have any music bands or hip hop industry.

yeah, without a hip-hop industry, you kinda have to wonder if life is worth living... :rolleyes:

[SteveD]

atlantans underestimate the potential of the north carolina economy. i dont foresee atlanta regional growth tapering off any time in the near future but i am certain that north carolina's growth is going to increase rapidly during the next 2-3 decades. charlotte and raleigh are propelling that growth. no one would be foolish to think that either city will become a serious rival to atlanta in terms of size or regional importance but it is fairly likely that their combined future growth will push north carolina ahead of georgia within 20-30 years or so.


Good points. It will take an increase in NC's growth to catch GA. As a population stat freak, it's sure gonna be fun to track!

[jcathens]

I agree that North Carolina has huge growth potential. The state is building the infrastructure to get good from metro to metro. Not to mention everyone of it's metro's are booming. I'm really glad to see Savannah start to take off. Its hard to compete with Jacksonville. Raleigh to Charlotte will be a mess of suburbia in just a few years.

[LoveAtlanta]

yeah, without a hip-hop industry, you kinda have to wonder if life is worth living... :rolleyes:

Charlotte is very closed minded city. It will be never cosmopolitan. That is what I was trying to say.

[MarketsWork]

Charlotte is very closed minded city. It will be never cosmopolitan. That is what I was trying to say.

Never is a very long time. Most cities were "closed minded" when they were smaller, and I remember when "closed minded" was a popular knock on sleepy little Atlanta. Charlotte is a beautiful and very livable city, and new residents are flocking to it in droves. Newcomers bring their different lifestyles and perspectives with them, and inevitably reshape their new home. I hardly recognize the Atlanta of the 1960s and 1970s. I dare say that in twenty years, few will recognize the Charlotte of 2000.

[realm0854]

charlotte is just getting to the size where it can begin to grow fast. for instance, the CSA added 70000+ people between 2005-06. this is compared to just a few years ago when it was only adding 40-45k annually. i think it's growth rate is going to continue to rise and eventually it will definitely become more cosmopolitan. atlanta even as recently as 1990 was really pretty lame. until that time there was virtually zero development in central atlanta and the city was still losing thousands of residents to the burbs. it has only take 15 years to revive the city substantially and, arguably, the intown movement in atlanta is only in its infancy.

the major differences between charlotte and atlanta that i can think of are :1) charlotte is investing in its central city much earlier than atlanta did, considering that atlanta had 3+ million people before it started to develop its central core into a desirable area.
2)charlotte lacks the abundance of older intown neighborhoods that atlanta has so the character of the city in the future is always going to be much more modern (whether that's a positive or a negative im not concerned, just pointing out the difference)
3)because north carolina has liberal annexation laws it is easier for charlotte's government to invest in infrastructure, schools, police, etc. which may help the city avoid some of the pitfalls that atlanta had during the 60s-90s. today, obviously, atlanta is on the upswing but it did go through some real rough spots.
4)atlanta has always had a reputation that exceeded the actual size of the city. only now that it is a metropolis of 5 million people is it really big enough to fill its shoes. charlotte, on the other hand, is a relative unknown. people still confuse it with charleston, sc and charlottesville, va. it will be harder for charlotte to put itself on the map, though it is really making headway in this department.

[RobMidtowner]

charlotte is just getting to the size where it can begin to grow fast. for instance, the CSA added 70000+ people between 2005-06. this is compared to just a few years ago when it was only adding 40-45k annually. i think it's growth rate is going to continue to rise and eventually it will definitely become more cosmopolitan. atlanta even as recently as 1990 was really pretty lame. until that time there was virtually zero development in central atlanta and the city was still losing thousands of residents to the burbs. it has only take 15 years to revive the city substantially and, arguably, the intown movement in atlanta is only in its infancy.

the major differences between charlotte and atlanta that i can think of are :1) charlotte is investing in its central city much earlier than atlanta did, considering that atlanta had 3+ million people before it started to develop its central core into a desirable area.
2)charlotte lacks the abundance of older intown neighborhoods that atlanta has so the character of the city in the future is always going to be much more modern (whether that's a positive or a negative im not concerned, just pointing out the difference)
3)because north carolina has liberal annexation laws it is easier for charlotte's government to invest in infrastructure, schools, police, etc. which may help the city avoid some of the pitfalls that atlanta had during the 60s-90s. today, obviously, atlanta is on the upswing but it did go through some real rough spots.
4)atlanta has always had a reputation that exceeded the actual size of the city. only now that it is a metropolis of 5 million people is it really big enough to fill its shoes. charlotte, on the other hand, is a relative unknown. people still confuse it with charleston, sc and charlottesville, va. it will be harder for charlotte to put itself on the map, though it is really making headway in this department.

Yeah but Charlotte (or any other city in NC) doesn't have the airport to support worldwide businesses and that's something big companies look for when choosing where to locate. Atlanta's airport will always keep it as the major regional city. And for that reason, I just don't see Charlotte ever growing faster than Atlanta.

[Tombstoner]

One would hope that Charlotte would anticipate mass transit needs before it becomes as complicated as it is in Atlanta (but maybe that train has already left the station -- no pun intended).

[Trae]

Good thing Charlotte is doing that (they have light rail up now).

[whoDean]

And Atlanta has had MARTA for what, 30 years?

[realm0854]

Atlanta's airport will always keep it as the major regional city. And for that reason, I just don't see Charlotte ever growing faster than Atlanta.

I didn't say I thought that either, although Charlotte will have its day in the sun when it is adding 100,000+ people a year sometime in the next couple of decades. But don't worry, no one is threatening your beloved Atlanta. I lived in both cities for years and actually prefer Atlanta by far, both culturally and for its built environment.

[LoveAtlanta]

Charlotte is not so compact like Atlanta.
There is virtually small downtown and all life is in suburbs.
Companies are in suburbs too. So there is really no central location like downtown Atlanta, midtown Atlanta or Buckehead.
Maybe one day it will get together

[dante2308]

charlotte is just getting to the size where it can begin to grow fast. for instance, the CSA added 70000+ people between 2005-06. this is compared to just a few years ago when it was only adding 40-45k annually. i think it's growth rate is going to continue to rise and eventually it will definitely become more cosmopolitan. atlanta even as recently as 1990 was really pretty lame. until that time there was virtually zero development in central atlanta and the city was still losing thousands of residents to the burbs. it has only take 15 years to revive the city substantially and, arguably, the intown movement in atlanta is only in its infancy.

the major differences between charlotte and atlanta that i can think of are :1) charlotte is investing in its central city much earlier than atlanta did, considering that atlanta had 3+ million people before it started to develop its central core into a desirable area.
2)charlotte lacks the abundance of older intown neighborhoods that atlanta has so the character of the city in the future is always going to be much more modern (whether that's a positive or a negative im not concerned, just pointing out the difference)
3)because north carolina has liberal annexation laws it is easier for charlotte's government to invest in infrastructure, schools, police, etc. which may help the city avoid some of the pitfalls that atlanta had during the 60s-90s. today, obviously, atlanta is on the upswing but it did go through some real rough spots.
4)atlanta has always had a reputation that exceeded the actual size of the city. only now that it is a metropolis of 5 million people is it really big enough to fill its shoes. charlotte, on the other hand, is a relative unknown. people still confuse it with charleston, sc and charlottesville, va. it will be harder for charlotte to put itself on the map, though it is really making headway in this department.

Lets not try to compare Charlotte today to Atlanta. Because the bulk of the growth of Charlotte as a leading city will occur in this century it will be very different than most southeastern cites and always somewhat ahead of the curve. While it is small and bustling now, just wait. The Charlotte of 2030 will be quite a place.

Atlanta's uniquely exponential growth means that the city will rebuild itself every few decades so we can expect some amazing things here too. I sometimes wonder how the developers are able to keep up with demand here with construction costs the way they are.

As for investing in the central core, Atlanta had been riding the nation wave of flight from the core to the suburbs. Thankfully, we are past that wave for the most part now and Atlanta's infrastructure is still mostly intact. The Beltline and streetcar will do what Charlotte has done on a much broader scale. There will really be no comparison 20 years from now. Atlanta has so much to work off of. With multiple CBDs and tons of unique neighborhoods, there is really no end to the possibilities.

[realm0854]

i agree. the future is bright, and the conditions are different today.

[john3eblover]

you might even say, every day is an opening day

[RobMidtowner]

Atlanta's airport will always keep it as the major regional city. And for that reason, I just don't see Charlotte ever growing faster than Atlanta.I didn't say I thought that either, although Charlotte will have its day in the sun when it is adding 100,000+ people a year sometime in the next couple of decades. But don't worry, no one is threatening your beloved Atlanta. I lived in both cities for years and actually prefer Atlanta by far, both culturally and for its built environment.

Yeah you did...look (wait, did you? I can't tell if you're being sarcastic):

charlotte and raleigh are propelling that growth. no one would be foolish to think that either city will become a serious rival to atlanta in terms of size or regional importance but it is fairly likely that their combined future growth will push north carolina ahead of georgia within 20-30 years or so.

Look, I like Charlotte and Raleigh, they're both very cool cities. And I'm not an ignorant ATL booster with short-man syndrome. I'm just explaining what I think has helped fuel the growth of Atlanta at such a rapid pace and how I think it won't happen as rapidly in Charlotte. Of course I'm conjecturing and could be totally wrong but it's just an opinion.

[smArTaLlone]

As for investing in the central core, Atlanta had been riding the nation wave of flight from the core to the suburbs. Thankfully, we are past that wave for the most part now and Atlanta's infrastructure is still mostly intact. The Beltline and streetcar will do what Charlotte has done on a much broader scale. There will really be no comparison 20 years from now. Atlanta has so much to work off of. With multiple CBDs and tons of unique neighborhoods, there is really no end to the possibilities.

Good point Dante. I often see it presented as if that situation only existed in Atlanta when in fact it was the case in many cities, especially in the south.

[AphroHippi]

I'm amazed at the comparisons between Atlanta and Charlotte on this board and others. They've not been in the same class since at least the 40's (if they were then). Charlotte is expanding, attracting diverse people from all over the world and its skyline is growing. All of this doesn't put it in a class to be compared to Atlanta.

Atlanta is in the Houston, Dallas and Miami class, Charlotte is in the Nashville, Minneapolis and Orlando class. I think some in Charlotte may look at symbols of growth and feel that "this is another notch in our belt showing that we're becoming more like...".

Will Charlotte ever catch up to Atlanta in population growth and otherwise, I don't see it, but then North Carolina was bigger than Georgia by a wide margin for years, then the gap closed and Georgia passed NC.

[KB0679]

The reason for all of the Charlotte/Atlanta comparisons, in my opinion, is because they are both rapidly growing Piedmont metropolises and in some ways, Charlotte is following Atlanta's developmental patterns. I agree that Charlotte's peers would be Nashville, Austin, Orlando, etc., but those cities don't evoke as many comparisons for three reasons IMO: 1) lack of proximity to Charlotte (holds more so for Austin and Orlando); 2) differences in the composition of the local economies (Charlotte's economy is much more similar to Atlanta's than to the majority of its peers); and 3) Charlotte is experiencing a highrise boom that exceeds that of the vast majority of its peers, thus making Atlanta the closest city by which to gauge its progress.

[Trae]

I believe Austin has more highrises going up than Charlotte.

[dante2308]

I believe Austin has more highrises going up than Charlotte.

Give it a rest. We all know how much you love Texas and no one is threatening Austin by putting it in the same category as Charlotte. Please grow up.

[kardon]

Give it a rest. We all know how much you love Texas and no one is threatening Austin by putting it in the same category as Charlotte. Please grow up.

Thank you...he loves Texas...so every chance he get he will pump Texas above Atlanta and everywhere else...

[Trae]

Give it a rest. We all know how much you love Texas and no one is threatening Austin by putting it in the same category as Charlotte. Please grow up.

How is that boosting Texas? I just thought that Austin was producing more highrises than Charlotte. Have you seen Austin's development thread? Or their 30 miles commuter rail under construction now?

Thank you...he loves Texas...so every chance he get he will pump Texas above Atlanta and everywhere else...

Give it a rest. When did I pump up any Texas city over Atlanta? I think you should use SSP's ignore list if I bug you that much (assuming they have one).

[john3eblover]

Trae has started the Atlanta Metroscape forums, and he works pretty hard at it. He does love Texas and Texas cities, but he's pretty interested in all cities :-)

[Trae]

I really am trying. I don't know how I am boosting everything Texas.

[KB0679]

I believe Austin has more highrises going up than Charlotte.

I wouldn't mind seeing Austin's list; I can't keep up with everything planned/going up in Charlotte these days. I'm sure they are about neck and neck in that department, as they are both roughly the same size and are growing at a similar rate. But again, the Austin/Charlotte comparisons rarely occur because they are so far removed from each other.

[Trae]

Here is Austin's list:

http://forum.skyscraperpage.com/showthread.php?t=124346

Austin and Charlotte have rarely anything in common. Their metro areas are roughly the same size, and their terrain's are both real hilly. They also have rail. That is all that I can think of right now.

[dante2308]

Okay here is quick question. Atlanta's MSA population was posted as 4,917,717 for 2005 by the Census Bureau. If the current population is now 5,138,223, didn't the MSA grow by 220,506 not 166,000? That would explain the huge disparity especially when we were comparing this growth to Houston's.

The CSA grew from 5,249,121 to 5,478,667 during the same period including new acquisitions for a growth value of 229,546 just to set the record straight. Correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't that mean that we outpaced Houston?

[SteveD]

Okay here is quick question. Atlanta's MSA population was posted as 4,917,717 for 2005 by the Census Bureau. If the current population is now 5,138,223, didn't the MSA grow by 220,506 not 166,000? That would explain the huge disparity especially when we were comparing this growth to Houston's.

The CSA grew from 5,249,121 to 5,478,667 during the same period including new acquisitions for a growth value of 229,546 just to set the record straight. Correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't that mean that we outpaced Houston?

Hmm Dante I'll have to look into that but I've got some report deadlines I've got to beat today then I'm headed out of town on biz for the rest of the week so it might be a while...not questioning the math above, but I'd want to re-assemble all the Houston and Atlanta MSA/CSA numbers again. Not because it means anything in particular, but because I'm a population stat nutcase.

[TexasBoi]

I really am trying. I don't know how I am boosting everything Texas.

don't worry about them. You commented on a subject that is relevant to the discussion after seeing a city mentioned. It just so happened to be a Texas city and they didn't like seeing it.

[RobMidtowner]

:previous: Stop spinning the wheel please.

[smArTaLlone]

I believe Austin has more highrises going up than Charlotte.

Maybe Trae does boost Texas cities but in this case I believe he was accurate. And since I spend quite a bit of time in central florida, I'd be surprised if Orlando doesn't have more.

[TexasBoi]

:previous: Stop spinning the wheel please.

what are you talking about?

[RobMidtowner]

what are you talking about?

I'm tired of these city vs. city arguments, they're really pointless and add nothing to the topic at hand: "New Atlanta Census".

[TexasBoi]

I'm tired of these city vs. city arguments, they're really pointless and add nothing to the topic at hand: "New Atlanta Census".

Oh I agree. I hate city v city arguments as well. But I don't think Trae's intention to post that comment in this thread.

[dante2308]

I take it back. Everyone is free to have opinions and express them. Trae and I have had several of the city vs city discussions across several websites. He consistently boosts Texas over whatever other place, but thats his prerogative and it was out of line for me to be rude. I apologize. In this case he was merely stating a fact and it had not yet ballooned into a debate.

[Trae]

I got blasted in one of the Census threads for saying facts about populations. Now this one about Austin, and I get it again. Everyone here is guilty at least once of boosting their home state or city. I know I have before, but this one wasn't the case.

[john3eblover]

leave trae alone

[SteveD]

leave trae alone

I second that. Trae is a good egg.

[Tombstoner]

Everyone here is guilty at least once of boosting their home state or city.

Not everyone, Trae. some of us are pathologically anti-booster! :D

[Harry Cane]

Front page article today in the AJC about how Atlanta gained more folks than any other metro area between 2000 and 2006. 890,000 new residents!

[land234]

now the question is...what is the form of development those 890k people are living in? Phenomenal growth used to be a point of pride for Atlanta, I dont know that it is any more (except to watch the kick ass skyline go up!) just due to the form it has taken.

Wonder how traffic is on 85 this morning! Only getting better I'm sure.

I'm glad there seems to be growth inside 285 though...when is south Atlanta going to build out? I'm sure it has some growth, but I'm talking about on the level of the northern burbs.

[ThrashATL]

For those of us that are visual...

http://img.coxnewsweb.com/C/06/22/67/image_5267226.jpg

[SteveD]

:previous: Six years...nearly 900,000 new residents. It's what we've been discussing the last couple weeks. It's staggering. Nearly 150,000 new people per year!

[RobMidtowner]

Or nearly 410 people per day on average. :tup:

[whoDean]

But....

Where's Charlotte on that list?

[cmjdrj1]

:previous:
Oh boy......here we go!

[thoraudio]

But....

Where's Charlotte on that list?

Charlotte has grown 18% since 2k compared to the ATL's 20%.

MSA estimates (http://www.census.gov/population/www/estimates/CBSA-est2006-annual.html)

[cmjdrj1]

For the record, I currently live in both Charlotte and Atlanta. I love both cities and each are seeing some great things happening. But I will say that I have never subscribed the the percentage model in terms of growth, it is somewhat misleading to an extent simply because 20% growth of 5 million is a hell of a lot more than 18% growth of 1.5 million. With that being said, I am glad to say that I live in cities that are going through exciting times.

[TexasBoi]

For those of us that are visual...

http://img.coxnewsweb.com/C/06/22/67/image_5267226.jpg

Damn Riverside?? I mean the LA area is the one that is REALLLLLLLLY growing.

[whoDean]

Charlotte has grown 18% since 2k compared to the ATL's 20%.

MSA estimates (http://www.census.gov/population/www/estimates/CBSA-est2006-annual.html)

Atlanta adds about 2.5 times the population in a year that Charlotte does.

[LoveAtlanta]

I am sick of those peple from Charlotte. This is Atlanta thread. And if Charlotte would be soooo goood whey people are not moving to Charlotte ?

[Pillsbury Doughboy]

A person from Atlanta mentioned Charlotte........

[realm0854]

God, I lived in Atlanta for four years until two years ago and almost everyone I met in the city was less egotistical about the place than the forumers on here. You guys have seriously gotten uber negative in some respects. If I didn't love the city so much that I try to stay current with what's happening there I'd stay clear of the Atlanta threads just because I can't take the stifling air in here.

[Trae]

Damn Riverside?? I mean the LA area is the one that is REALLLLLLLLY growing.

Shit I know. That place is so crowded. The whole Los Angeles area has grown by over a million. You have Los Angeles, then Orange County, then Riverside.

[scguy]

now the question is...what is the form of development those 890k people are living in? Phenomenal growth used to be a point of pride for Atlanta, I dont know that it is any more (except to watch the kick ass skyline go up!) just due to the form it has taken.

Wonder how traffic is on 85 this morning! Only getting better I'm sure.

I'm glad there seems to be growth inside 285 though...when is south Atlanta going to build out? I'm sure it has some growth, but I'm talking about on the level of the northern burbs.
Give the southside some time. Seems like the fastest growing counties (percentage wise at least) are on the Southside. Numerous projects have been announced recently From Newnan to College Park to Stockbridge, (including highrises). Southside will be totally differnt in 10 years...believe me!

[galaca]

:previous: I read a while back (AJC, I think..) that pre-2000 only about 28% of residential permits issued in the metro were south of I-20. But since then the number had grown to 40+%. And this was probably a couple years ago when I read this so the number is probably higher today.

EDIT: Google knows all... AJC Article (https://coles.kennesaw.edu/documents/AJC_1-19-04.pdf) It was actually talking about population growth but the numbers are probably parallel.

[sprtsluvr8]

As long as it stays further south on the southside, I don't mind crazy development and growth like the northern burbs. Actually I think it already is growing mega-fast in Henry, Fayette, South Fulton...all outside the perimeter. I've just read about a retail development under construction in Henry County/McDonough that is mega-huge; 570,000 sq feet and an open air retail center rather than a mall. Inside 285 already has steady growth with smaller scale development/construction. That is the best part of living just south of downtown - it's urban and heavily populated in many areas, but not overrun with new construction and new population.

On that note, I just read about a new development at the site of the old Lakewood GM facility that will be larger than Glenwood Park, with a retail element about the size of Edgewood. The area is directly south of Grant Park, near the Atlanta Pen.

[Trae]

I heard Peachtree City and Fayetteville have been having a hard time selling homes (the homes are staying on the market a lot longer).

[galaca]

I don't know if that's true or not but if so it could be because new homes in Fayette County tend to be relatively expensive. At one point, Fayette County had the highest median home price in the metro.

[macdaddy]

As long as it stays further south on the southside, I don't mind crazy development and growth like the northern burbs. Actually I think it already is growing mega-fast in Henry, Fayette, South Fulton...all outside the perimeter. I've just read about a retail development under construction in Henry County/McDonough that is mega-huge; 570,000 sq feet and an open air retail center rather than a mall. Inside 285 already has steady growth with smaller scale development/construction. That is the best part of living just south of downtown - it's urban and heavily populated in many areas, but not overrun with new construction and new population.

On that note, I just read about a new development at the site of the old Lakewood GM facility that will be larger than Glenwood Park, with a retail element about the size of Edgewood. The area is directly south of Grant Park, near the Atlanta Pen.

I'm trying to visualize this site's location. Where can I find more info on it? If this gets built right, it'll be amazing.

[SteveD]

I'm trying to visualize this site's location. Where can I find more info on it? If this gets built right, it'll be amazing.

Its immediately west of the Federal Pen at the intersection of McDonough and Sawtell. Follow Boulevard south til it dead ends then go west one block. It's the southwest quadrant of that intersection.

[sprtsluvr8]

Unless something has changed there in the last couple of years, it's one of the most desolate, abandoned-looking corners I've seen in Atlanta. :)

[Newnan_Eric]

I'm trying to visualize this site's location. Where can I find more info on it? If this gets built right, it'll be amazing.

Here is the map from yesterday's AJC:

http://img.coxnewsweb.com/C/01/39/65/image_5265391.gif

[macdaddy]

Thanks guys, that's impressive! I had no idea that was planned. I cut through there a lot, to take my kid to school.