PDA

You are viewing a trimmed-down version of the SkyscraperPage.com discussion forum.  For the full version follow the link below.

View Full Version : Census Bureau Releases July 1 '06 County Pop. Estimates



SteveD
Mar 22, 2007, 3:37 PM
The Census Bureau has just released the latest county-based population estimates, with a reference date of July 1, 2006. You can access the data here:
http://www.census.gov/popest/counties/CO-EST2006-01.html

So, if you know the components of your area's MSA and/or CSA, you can now calculate the population estimate for July, 2006. I'll start with Atlanta.

Atlanta Sandy Springs Marietta MSA 2000: 4,281,616 / 2006: 5,138,223

The Atlanta CSA adds the Gainesville, GA MSA, and the micropolitan areas of Cedartown, GA, LaGrange, GA, Thomaston, GA, and Valley, AL:

Atlanta Sandy Springs Gainesville CSA 2000: 4,583,958 / 2006: 5,478,667

As is readily apparent from the above numbers, the Atlanta MSA and CSA are continuing with relentless and astonishing growth so far this decade, with the CSA adding nearly 900,000 people in the last 6 years. The Census Bureau noted that, in the 2000 through 2006 period, Georgia had 14 of the nation's 100 fastest-growing counties, leading the nation in that number, and three of the top 10.

plinko
Mar 22, 2007, 3:52 PM
Phoenix MSA: 4,039,182
Maricopa County: 3,768,123
Pinal County: 271,059

Raw growth in Maricopa County alone has been between 93K-140K every year since 2000. Scary.

Pinal County added 12.9% to its population in just the past year!

Crawford
Mar 22, 2007, 4:23 PM
Of all the Sunbelt boomers, Atlanta and environs is always the biggest mystery to me. Cities in Florida, Arizona, even Texas make sense (beach, warmth, golf, etc.). Atlanta is more of a head-scratcher. Inland location, far from ideal weather, high crime, crazy commutes, etc.

The two obvious draws would be 1. Easy to get a job and 2. Relatively cheap new homes in exurbs, except Atlanta does not appear to have lower unemployment rates or cheaper homes than from many of the regions from which it draws.

The strangest part of the Atlanta allure (and this extends to Charlotte) is the black mythology of these places as promised lands. Suddenly the North Carolina of Jesse Helms and the Georgia of Sonny Perdue are supposed meccas for progressive blacks (and Sonny's the governor RIGHT NOW and won basically for his support of the confederate flag).

I once heard a black secretary at my dad's office in suburban Detroit say she was moving from a nice middle-class Detroit suburb to the southern suburbs of Atlanta for the safety, schools and lack of congestion. There is absolutely no data to support the notion that suburban Atlanta would be a solid choice over suburban Detroit for safety, schools or congestion. If anything, there should be a flood in the opposite direction, from emerging ghettohoods in South DeKalb and South Fulton counties (Atlanta) to the Northeast and Midwest.

It's amazing how good PR can influence relocation decisions more than hard statistics.

galaca
Mar 22, 2007, 4:40 PM
Of all the Sunbelt boomers, Atlanta and environs is always the biggest mystery to me. Cities in Florida, Arizona, even Texas make sense (beach, warmth, golf, etc.). Atlanta is more of a head-scratcher. Inland location, far from ideal weather, high crime, crazy commutes, etc.

The two obvious draws would be 1. Easy to get a job and 2. Relatively cheap new homes in exurbs, except Atlanta does not appear to have lower unemployment rates or cheaper homes than from many of the regions from which it draws.

The strangest part of the Atlanta allure (and this extends to Charlotte) is the black mythology of these places as promised lands. Suddenly the North Carolina of Jesse Helms and the Georgia of Sonny Perdue are supposed meccas for progressive blacks (and Sonny's the governor RIGHT NOW and won basically for his support of the confederate flag).

I once heard a black secretary at my dad's office in suburban Detroit say she was moving from a nice middle-class Detroit suburb to the southern suburbs of Atlanta for the safety, schools and lack of congestion. There is absolutely no data to support the notion that suburban Atlanta would be a solid choice over suburban Detroit for safety, schools or congestion. If anything, there should be a flood in the opposite direction, from emerging ghettohoods in South DeKalb and South Fulton counties (Atlanta) to the Northeast and Midwest.

It's amazing how good PR can influence relocation decisions more than hard statistics.

It's quite obvious that you don't know what you're talking about.

Crawford
Mar 22, 2007, 4:44 PM
^
Thanks for the informed reply. Going forward, I'll be sure to ignore hard data and instead rely on media hype and PR razzle dazzle.

dimondpark
Mar 22, 2007, 4:50 PM
Of all the Sunbelt boomers, Atlanta and environs is always the biggest mystery to me. Cities in Florida, Arizona, even Texas make sense (beach, warmth, golf, etc.). Atlanta is more of a head-scratcher. Inland location, far from ideal weather, high crime, crazy commutes, etc.

The two obvious draws would be 1. Easy to get a job and 2. Relatively cheap new homes in exurbs, except Atlanta does not appear to have lower unemployment rates or cheaper homes than from many of the regions from which it draws.

The strangest part of the Atlanta allure (and this extends to Charlotte) is the black mythology of these places as promised lands. Suddenly the North Carolina of Jesse Helms and the Georgia of Sonny Perdue are supposed meccas for progressive blacks (and Sonny's the governor RIGHT NOW and won basically for his support of the confederate flag).

I once heard a black secretary at my dad's office in suburban Detroit say she was moving from a nice middle-class Detroit suburb to the southern suburbs of Atlanta for the safety, schools and lack of congestion. There is absolutely no data to support the notion that suburban Atlanta would be a solid choice over suburban Detroit for safety, schools or congestion. If anything, there should be a flood in the opposite direction, from emerging ghettohoods in South DeKalb and South Fulton counties (Atlanta) to the Northeast and Midwest.

It's amazing how good PR can influence relocation decisions more than hard statistics.

that's an interesting observation...I've wondered that too. The Bay Area(And California for that matter) is hemorraging blacks left and right and I suspect a huge chunk are headed to the south. I suspect (far)lower housing costs is the primary reason.

SteveD
Mar 22, 2007, 4:55 PM
Crawford, Atlanta is in the Piedmont region of the Appalachians, with an average elevation of about 1000 feet, and it has a far more desirable climate than most of the deep South as a result. Many folks prefer four distinct seasons, and Atlanta does not have the stifling heat of Texas or Florida (since "warmth" was one of your criteria citing those other locales). In fact, droves of folks from Florida (former northerners) are moving halfway back and settling in North Georgia and the Carolinas. This phenomenon is referred to as the "halfbacks". The Atlanta metro, and the City of Atlanta in particular, have seen rapidly declining crime for some time now, so your crime comment is ill-informed. Atlantan's are a short drive from either mountains or the beach. Golf?? plenty of that here too, Crawford, including several of the country's most celebrated courses. And, as is widely known, the Atlanta metro does indeed have one of the nation's most affluent, influential and thriving African American communities. Maybe your prior post seemed so filled with inaccuracies and generalities that the subsequent poster didn't even know where to start! But I digress...please let's get the thread back on track and discuss the new census pop. estimates.

Crawford
Mar 22, 2007, 4:58 PM
that's an interesting observation...I've wondered that too. The Bay Area(And California for that matter) is hemorraging blacks left and right and I suspect a huge chunk are headed to the south. I suspect (far)lower housing costs is the primary reason.

I'd agree that Atlanta has big cost advantages over places like California, but what about Atlanta's draw in cheaper places like Baltimore, Detroit, etc.? Yes, these cities have huge urban problems, but the suburbs of Detroit are no different from suburbs anywhere else and they are CHEAP with good schools and low congestion.

If you look at the data, Atlanta has very high crime and congestion numbers and below-average schools. At the same time, people are moving to Atlanta based on these criteria.

Mr Roboto
Mar 22, 2007, 5:03 PM
Supposedly cook county is losing tons of people to surrounding chicagoland counties. I find this trend disturbing, if its true that is. Because the neighborhoods surrounding downtown are certainly growing, which means that much more people are leaving the other areas in chicago. Not good.

Alta California
Mar 22, 2007, 5:12 PM
I hope this latest estimate is enough to put Los Angeles over the top.

MayorOfChicago
Mar 22, 2007, 5:12 PM
Well look how wrong they were last time. Cook Country had estimates to do horrible, and surprise surprise grew by 250,000 people.

dimondpark
Mar 22, 2007, 5:15 PM
Well look how wrong they were last time. Cook Country had estimates to do horrible, and surprise surprise grew by 250,000 people.


the 2000 census, when they actually counted instead of guessing, showed that they were short by 400,000 in previous estimates of the Bay Area's population-I would take these estimates with a grain of salt.

SteveD
Mar 22, 2007, 5:16 PM
Phoenix MSA: 4,039,182
Maricopa County: 3,768,123
Pinal County: 271,059

Raw growth in Maricopa County alone has been between 93K-140K every year since 2000. Scary.

Pinal County added 12.9% to its population in just the past year!

:previous: Yeah, the Phoenix metro growth is equally as amazing as Atlanta's.

vertex
Mar 22, 2007, 5:19 PM
Phoenix MSA: 4,039,182
Maricopa County: 3,768,123
Pinal County: 271,059

Raw growth in Maricopa County alone has been between 93K-140K every year since 2000. Scary.

Pinal County added 12.9% to its population in just the past year!

Plinko, realistically they ought to start adding Yavapai County (Prescott/Prescott Valley) to the Phoenix MSA as well. That would bump the total to 4,247,196.

brickell
Mar 22, 2007, 5:22 PM
according to the estimates the Miami Metro is now 5.46 Million adding only 39K people. The state is projected to have gained 322k with Lee County (Fort Myers) topping the list with 27k. Pinellas (St. Pete) is on the bottom losing over 2,000 people.

Miami-Fort Lauderdale-Miami Beach MSA
Miami-Dade 2,402,208 24,483 (change since 2005 est)
Broward 1,787,636 5,620
Palm Beach 1,274,013 9,057

danwxman
Mar 22, 2007, 5:25 PM
South Central PA:
Adams: 101,105
Cumberland: 226, 117
Dauphin: 254,176
Franklin: 139,991
Lancaster: 494,486
Lebanon: 126,883
Perry: 45,087
York:416,322

Total: 1,804,176

Of course South Central PA won't ever be one metro probably for some time. If anything, the only county we'd lose would be Franklin, to the DC metro.

Marcu
Mar 22, 2007, 5:25 PM
Supposedly cook county is losing tons of people to surrounding chicagoland counties. I find this trend disturbing, if its true that is. Because the neighborhoods surrounding downtown are certainly growing, which means that much more people are leaving the other areas in chicago. Not good.

Not necessarily. The estimated loss in population in cook co is about 1.5% which is actually around 0 growth if accouting for the marign of error. The collar counties are growing at the rate of the sunbelt cities so the region is growing fairly rapidly and doing well economically. Lake county, for example, grew about 10% and Will county grew 29%. Both are at around 700k now making each more populous than atlanta, tampa, and raleigh city limits. Those areas will have no choice but to get denser and aleviate congestion with mass transit. I know both Kane and Lake have allocated most of their existing land to wild life preserves and there's a lot of denser transit oriented growth going on in both counties as a result.

The shrinking areas in cook county are in the impoverished southern portion of the county (places like markham, robbins, harvey, etc.) that are far from desirable. Robbins, for example, is losing about 4% a year. I personally see this as a good thing. The last thing I want to see is impoverished portions of the county experiencing growth while staying impoverished. The best thing that can happen for a lot of those places is a clean slate.

SteveD
Mar 22, 2007, 5:27 PM
according to the estimates the Miami Metro is now 5.46 Million adding only 39K people. The state is projected to have gained 322k with Lee County (Fort Myers) topping the list with 27k. Pinellas (St. Pete) is on the bottom losing over 2,000 people.

Miami-Fort Lauderdale-Miami Beach MSA
Miami-Dade 2,402,208 24,483 (change since 2005 est)
Broward 1,787,636 5,620
Palm Beach 1,274,013 9,057

:previous: That's interesting. Miami doesn't have a corresponding CSA (it's the largest metro in the country without one) and it's MSA is still larger than the Atlanta MSA, but it now appears, at least based on the census bureau estimates, that Atlanta's CSA has passed the Miami MSA.

MayorOfChicago
Mar 22, 2007, 5:28 PM
Cook County........ 5,288,655
DeKalb County........ 100,139
DuPage County........ 932,670
Grundy County........ 45,828
Kane County........ 493,735
Kankakee County........ 109,090
Kendall County........ 88,158
Lake County........ 713,076
McHenry County........ 312,373
Will County........ 668,217
Kenosha County........ 162,001
Lake County........ 494,202
LaPorte County........ 110,479
Porter County........ 160,105
Jasper County........ 32,296
Newton County........ 14,293

Chicagoland: 9,725,317

Growth of 412,763, although it would be been exactly 500,000 if they didn't predict Cook County to lose so many people.

MayorOfChicago
Mar 22, 2007, 5:32 PM
^ something funny....

I took their growth estimates and divided them by 6, then multiplied by 10 to get the 2000 to 2010 change for Chicagoland.

In 2010 the Census bureau is estimating that Chicagoland will have....

10,000,492 people. Talk about cutting it close :yes:

Marcu
Mar 22, 2007, 5:34 PM
Cook County........ 5,288,655
DeKalb County........ 100,139
DuPage County........ 932,670
Grundy County........ 45,828
Kane County........ 493,735
Kankakee County........ 109,090
Kendall County........ 88,158
Lake County........ 713,076
McHenry County........ 312,373
Will County........ 668,217
Kenosha County........ 162,001
Lake County........ 494,202
LaPorte County........ 110,479
Porter County........ 160,105
Jasper County........ 32,296
Newton County........ 14,293

Chicagoland: 9,725,317

Growth of 412,763, although it would be been exactly 500,000 if they didn't predict Cook County to lose so many people.

Are Jasper and Newton counties really in Chicago metro?

MayorOfChicago
Mar 22, 2007, 5:41 PM
No, I think I had a list of the CSA counties...you know how crazy those get. Also Kankakee in IL and LaPorte in Indiana.

So just Metro:

9,459,159

MayorOfChicago
Mar 22, 2007, 5:44 PM
And since I'm addicted to my home state:

Des Moines CSA: 604,626

dimondpark
Mar 22, 2007, 5:46 PM
Los Angeles County it appears is anyone's guess...
Census Estimate 9,948,081
California State Dept of Finance Estimate 10,292,723

Sirus
Mar 22, 2007, 5:52 PM
Minneapolis - St. Paul MSA

County / 2000 Census / 2006 Estimate / 2000 - 06 Change

Anoka County / 298,084 / 327,005 / 28,921
Carver County / 70,205 / 87,545 / 17,340
Dakota County / 355,904 / 388,001 / 32,097
Hennepin County / 1,116,200 / 1,122,093 / 5,893
Ramsey County / 511,035 / 493,215 / -17,820
Scott County / 89,498 / 124,092 / 34,594
Washington County / 201,130 / 225,000 / 23,870
Chisago County / 41,101 / 50,344 / 9,243
Isanti County / 31,287 / 38,576 / 7,289
Sherburne County / 64,417 / 84,995 / 20,578
Wright County / 89,986 / 114,787 / 24,801
Pierce County / 36,804 39,373 / 25,69
St. Croix County / 63,155 / 80,015 / 16,860

Minneapolis - St. Paul MSA / 2,968,806 / 3,175,041 / 206,235

Debauchalapolis
Mar 22, 2007, 6:00 PM
Minneapolis - St. Paul CSA 3,271,888 / 3,502,891 / 231,003

dave8721
Mar 22, 2007, 6:47 PM
according to the estimates the Miami Metro is now 5.46 Million adding only 39K people. The state is projected to have gained 322k with Lee County (Fort Myers) topping the list with 27k. Pinellas (St. Pete) is on the bottom losing over 2,000 people.

Miami-Fort Lauderdale-Miami Beach MSA
Miami-Dade 2,402,208 24,483 (change since 2005 est)
Broward 1,787,636 5,620
Palm Beach 1,274,013 9,057

I dont see how they see Palm Beach's growth being so small. Have they seen the insane # of houses that are going up in western Palm Beach county the last few years? I would have assumed Palm Beach's pop growth would rival MD if not surpass it.

VivaLFuego
Mar 22, 2007, 7:09 PM
Supposedly cook county is losing tons of people to surrounding chicagoland counties. I find this trend disturbing, if its true that is. Because the neighborhoods surrounding downtown are certainly growing, which means that much more people are leaving the other areas in chicago. Not good.


Even for the areas around downtown, they are developing with reasonably high household density but lower population density, i.e. it is alot of singles, couples, etc, not large families pack in like in the old days.

john3eblover
Mar 22, 2007, 7:12 PM
Crawford, Atlanta is in the Piedmont region of the Appalachians, with an average elevation of about 1000 feet, and it has a far more desirable climate than most of the deep South as a result. Many folks prefer four distinct seasons, and Atlanta does not have the stifling heat of Texas or Florida (since "warmth" was one of your criteria citing those other locales). In fact, droves of folks from Florida (former northerners) are moving halfway back and settling in North Georgia and the Carolinas. This phenomenon is referred to as the "halfbacks". The Atlanta metro, and the City of Atlanta in particular, have seen rapidly declining crime for some time now, so your crime comment is ill-informed. Atlantan's are a short drive from either mountains or the beach. Golf?? plenty of that here too, Crawford, including several of the country's most celebrated courses. And, as is widely known, the Atlanta metro does indeed have one of the nation's most affluent, influential and thriving African American communities. Maybe your prior post seemed so filled with inaccuracies and generalities that the subsequent poster didn't even know where to start! But I digress...please let's get the thread back on track and discuss the new census pop. estimates.

Thanks for starting this thread, Steve, and for responding in a clear, articulate, and informed way. I couldn't have said it better.:tup:

It's always amazing to me how people can pass judgement on areas of the country so harshly when they have never even been there.

Attrill
Mar 22, 2007, 7:25 PM
Even for the areas around downtown, they are developing with reasonably high household density but lower population density, i.e. it is alot of singles, couples, etc, not large families pack in like in the old days.

Yep. It's important to remember just how crowded parts of Chicago were at the peak of it's population. I lived in Ukrainian village in the 90's and saw three flats with extended families of 5-8 people on each floor turned into condos with 1 or 2 people per floor. That's a loss of density, but it doesn't mean Chicago is stagnating in any way. I also don't know what % of growth in surrounding counties is due to people leaving Cook county, I'm sure some is due to that, but some of the growth has to be from people moving from other parts of the state or country.

ltsmotorsport
Mar 22, 2007, 7:27 PM
Sacramento metro: 2,228,863


Sacramento and Placer counties both gained 10,000 people in one year!:eek:

Hooray for sprawl! :uhh:

Mr Roboto
Mar 22, 2007, 7:46 PM
I also don't know what % of growth in surrounding counties is due to people leaving Cook county, I'm sure some is due to that, but some of the growth has to be from people moving from other parts of the state or country.

Right, I also dont know at what % former cook county residents are contributing to counties like lake, dupage and will. I just saw on the news this morning, they were talking about the new census estimates, and seemed to infer that those leaving cook county were going to these outer burbs. Of course, llke people have said, all of these are just estimates anyway and no one knows for sure, but I just dont like to hear trends like that regardless.

Good points about the density decreases too though. Most of these new flats and condos do seem to be mostly getting filled with young couples and singles. Population decreases but not necessarily bad for the city.

CityFan
Mar 22, 2007, 7:52 PM
I'd agree that Atlanta has big cost advantages over places like California, but what about Atlanta's draw in cheaper places like Baltimore, Detroit, etc.? Yes, these cities have huge urban problems, but the suburbs of Detroit are no different from suburbs anywhere else and they are CHEAP with good schools and low congestion.

If you look at the data, Atlanta has very high crime and congestion numbers and below-average schools. At the same time, people are moving to Atlanta based on these criteria.
How is winter climate in Detroit? People move to Atlanta for various reasons. Climate is one of them.

EastSideHBG
Mar 22, 2007, 8:04 PM
South Central PA:
Adams: 101,105
Cumberland: 226, 117
Dauphin: 254,176
Franklin: 139,991
Lancaster: 494,486
Lebanon: 126,883
Perry: 45,087
York:416,322

Total: 1,804,176

Of course South Central PA won't ever be one metro probably for some time. If anything, the only county we'd lose would be Franklin, to the DC metro.
I am forever shocked at just how slow South Central PA grows....population-wise that is. We all know it sprawls like the Dickens!

But yeah, regardless of all of the issues there, the location alone is why I am so confused as to why it isn't absolutely booming. :???:

atlantaguy
Mar 22, 2007, 8:09 PM
Believe it or not, the quality of life here is pretty damn good. The bad crime is in areas most people not involved in drugs would never venture to - just like every major city. The terrain is beautiful, the mountains are only an hour away, the beach is only 5 - 7 hours away, we have four distinct seasons, one of the greatest restaurant scenes in the country, major league sports, one of the best coaster parks in the country, jobs, etc.

People move here for many reasons. The cheap exurban housing market is not the only one.

seaskyfan
Mar 22, 2007, 9:04 PM
Here's Seattle:

Seattle-Bellevue-Tacoma MSA: 3,263,497
Seattle-Tacoma-Olympia CMSA: 3,876,211

arbeiter
Mar 22, 2007, 9:20 PM
you guys should look more closely at the other data released by the census (i already knew about this stuff as it's part of my job):

here's the 100 fastest growing counties:
http://www.census.gov/popest/counties/CO-EST2006-08.html

SteveD
Mar 22, 2007, 9:33 PM
you guys should look more closely at the other data released by the census (i already knew about this stuff as it's part of my job):

here's the 100 fastest growing counties:
http://www.census.gov/popest/counties/CO-EST2006-08.html
:previous: yep, I was looking at that this morning. Four of the top 11 in Georgia, all metro Atlanta.

TheMeltyMan
Mar 22, 2007, 9:56 PM
Berks County, PA 396,236(2001) >> 401,149(2006)

Topping the 400,000 mark with the dignity and grace that defines greater Reading, Pennsylvania. I think some statistics are finally lumping in Reading with the blobbed orange Philly metro and some maps are finally connecting Philly with Reading along the 422 corridor (reading, exeter, birdsboro, amity, pottstown, royersford, collegeville, phoenixville and into King of Prussia. As much as I hate sprawl, I just love to see the Philly blob expand.

fflint
Mar 22, 2007, 9:58 PM
Alameda County: 1,457,426
Contra Costa County: 1,024,319
Marin County: 248,742
Napa County: 133,522
San Francisco City and County: 744,041
San Mateo County: 705,499
Santa Clara County: 1,731,281
Santa Cruz County: 249,705
Solano County: 411,680
Sonoma County: 466,891

The Bay Area: 7,173,106

You all can butcher it up into several different metros if you like--I suggest breaking it up into three metropolitan areas: "The", "Bay", and "Area." Pick a random six-lane commercial boulevard and use it as a dividing line!

WonderlandPark
Mar 22, 2007, 10:13 PM
Los Angeles still barely below 10,000,000
finally the OC topped 3 million
Riverside topped 2 million
San Bernardino just barely below 2 million
Ventura just a hair away from 800K

So the REAL LA metro is in the ballpark of 17.8 million (no bs about cutting an heavily urbanized area in half

KevinFromTexas
Mar 22, 2007, 11:28 PM
Travis County, (Austin is the seat), 921,006.

Austin metro counties estimate:

Travis: 921,006
Williamson: 353,830
Hays: 130,325
Bastrop: 71,684
Caldwell: 36,720

Austin Metro estimate: 1,513,565

liat91
Mar 23, 2007, 12:11 AM
Here's some of compiled areas of interest, accurate as I can get...
CSA's and MSA's
New York: 22,087,640
Los Angeles: 17,775,984
Chicago: 9,725,317
Wash/Balt: 8,468,832
Boston/Prov: 7,465,634
San Fran: 7,228,948 + Stockton = 7,920,118
Philadelphia: 6,382,714 (even after adding Berks, seems futile when Dallas is roaring along)
Dallas: 6,310,520
Houston: 5,641,077
Atlanta: 5,478,667
Miami: 5,463,857
Detroit: 5,410, 014
Phoenix: 4,039,182
Seattle: 3,876,211
Minneapolis: 3,502,891
San Diego: 2,941,454

Fiorenza
Mar 23, 2007, 12:36 AM
8 of the 100 fastest growing counties are in blue states?

scguy
Mar 23, 2007, 1:53 AM
Of all the Sunbelt boomers, Atlanta and environs is always the biggest mystery to me. Cities in Florida, Arizona, even Texas make sense (beach, warmth, golf, etc.). Atlanta is more of a head-scratcher. Inland location, far from ideal weather, high crime, crazy commutes, etc.

The two obvious draws would be 1. Easy to get a job and 2. Relatively cheap new homes in exurbs, except Atlanta does not appear to have lower unemployment rates or cheaper homes than from many of the regions from which it draws.

The strangest part of the Atlanta allure (and this extends to Charlotte) is the black mythology of these places as promised lands. Suddenly the North Carolina of Jesse Helms and the Georgia of Sonny Perdue are supposed meccas for progressive blacks (and Sonny's the governor RIGHT NOW and won basically for his support of the confederate flag).

I once heard a black secretary at my dad's office in suburban Detroit say she was moving from a nice middle-class Detroit suburb to the southern suburbs of Atlanta for the safety, schools and lack of congestion. There is absolutely no data to support the notion that suburban Atlanta would be a solid choice over suburban Detroit for safety, schools or congestion. If anything, there should be a flood in the opposite direction, from emerging ghettohoods in South DeKalb and South Fulton counties (Atlanta) to the Northeast and Midwest.

It's amazing how good PR can influence relocation decisions more than hard statistics.

As far as weather, what you hear mostly from the thousands of retiring baby boomers who are relocating to Georgia and the Carolinas is that Florida is too hot all the time and that the NE is too cold in the winter with snow and all. Atlanta has a little bit of each but it is relatively mild, (much milder than the NE).

c4smok
Mar 23, 2007, 2:54 AM
Between July 1, 2005, and July 1, 2006, the 10-county Houston-Sugar Land-Baytown Metropolitan Statistical Area gained 187,380 residents, bringing the total to 5,539,949 - HBJ

Harris County, TX 3,886,207 3,762,844 +123,363


Houston MSA is now the 6th Largest in the US =)

hoosier
Mar 23, 2007, 4:13 AM
Indianapolis-Carmel MSA 2006

Marion County (Indianapolis)-865,504
Hamilton County (Carmel)- 250,979
Hendricks County-131,204
Johnson County- 133,316

Total-1,381,003

I left out some of the smaller counties, so the Indy MSA is well over 1.4 million.

Attrill
Mar 23, 2007, 5:29 AM
Crain's has an interesting article (http://chicagobusiness.com/cgi-bin/news.pl?id=24328) about the growth of counties outside Cook county, and some of the problems they are facing because of the growth.

"Yorkville’s mostly two-lane highways have become more congested and the school system more “strained,” and extending public services such as water to new subdivisions has been a “challenge,”"

danwxman
Mar 23, 2007, 5:41 AM
I am forever shocked at just how slow South Central PA grows....population-wise that is. We all know it sprawls like the Dickens!

But yeah, regardless of all of the issues there, the location alone is why I am so confused as to why it isn't absolutely booming. :???:

Are you kidding? The area is booming by Pennsylvania standards. Lancaster and York are especially growing very fast.

dante2308
Mar 23, 2007, 8:40 AM
Houston, Atlanta, and Miami all seem to have the same population basically. The Sunbelt is such a weird place.

Crawford, Atlanta's draw, by the way, isn't really about it's PR. It really makes an impression once you visit here especially if you are coming from one of the smaller Sun Belt cities, especially from Florida.

I moved to Atlanta from South Florida and it was like a breath of fresh air. The quality of life seemed so high and the people were so friendly. I think what drew me in the most was the can-do attitude.

Compared to Fort Lauderdale, it actually seemed like I had a reasonable chance at a good education and a well paying job. I really think some parts of South Florida need to realize that an economy based entirely on catering to tourists and 60 pluses doesn't pan out forever. Unfortunately I don't speak a word of Spanish so all the Latin American companies in the world really didn't do me any good either. All that seemed to happen was people getting priced out of their homes as the place ironically got shabbier and shabbier as new construction came to a screeching halt. I don't know what caused it but the people were cold as well.

Oh yes, many new condos started going up, but who could afford them that actually lived there? No one. The suburbs just keep wearing down and every time a hurricane hits, the landscaping becomes more depressing. Where the hell did they expect the next generation to work? That is why there is an exodus from Miami to Atlanta at least.

Detroit? No one likes living in a city no one wants to move to...

Climate? What could be better than four seasons and mild winters with a pray-this-is-the-year chance of snow.

Congestion? So? Show me a traffic jam in Atlanta and I'll show you ten reasons you didn't need to be in it and a hundred cities that have them too.

House prices? Here we go. Selling my 1,800 sq.ft. three bedroom piece of junk that ridiculously quadrupled in value in the span of twelve months got me a 5,500 sq. ft. five bedroom house near Atlanta (not exurbs, barely suburbs) with cash spare to burn. My new house came with friendly neighbors too. They lined up with pies and whatnot for godsakes. What the hell more could you ask for in a city anyway? Atlanta has any and everything really.

Stratosphere 2020
Mar 23, 2007, 9:43 AM
Believe it or not, the quality of life here is pretty damn good. The bad crime is in areas most people not involved in drugs would never venture to - just like every major city. The terrain is beautiful, the mountains are only an hour away, the beach is only 5 - 7 hours away, we have four distinct seasons, one of the greatest restaurant scenes in the country, major league sports, one of the best coaster parks in the country, jobs, etc.

People move here for many reasons. The cheap exurban housing market is not the only one.



In terms of geography, Atlanta has a dense mecca of tall trees, it has small lakes, and it is a city on rolling elevation (not flat). So that would make it attractive to settle in terms of geography compare to places like Miami where there are beaches for instance.

As an outsider, the reason why I find Atlanta attractive: is that it is an exciting place to live at this time with all the boom going on, lots and lots of tall tress, beautiful architecture (even that of new towers and high-rises going up), overall clean, entertainment scene, friendly, and it is overall affordable. For a recent college grad like myself, it feels like you are growing together with the city.

I do understand why many blacks would settle in the South, it is that cultural/ethnic and historic bond with that region. Atlanta is a place where many blacks dominate high positions in corporations. In addition, they are ceo's, directors and managers of their own companies or that of others. The best PR to attract black folks from the rest of the country to Atlanta, is to show them that in Atlanta they can make it and that there is more opportunity for them. And you got to give Atlanta credit that they have succeeded in doing just that.


I terms of politics, I view Atlanta as a liberal city in an overall conservative state. Atlanta is like an island in the sea that is Georgia. Still you can not ignore that there are many conservatives in the suburbs of Atlanta, but that the actual city of Atlanta has many liberals, an example of that is the gay scene in Midtown.

Trae
Mar 23, 2007, 11:30 AM
Atlanta is at 5.2M in the AJC article. Is the 5.4 estimate for its CSA?

SteveD
Mar 23, 2007, 12:26 PM
Atlanta is at 5.2M in the AJC article. Is the 5.4 estimate for its CSA?


Trae..see the 1st post of this thread for Atlanta's 2006 MSA and CSA estimates...

SteveD
Mar 23, 2007, 12:35 PM
Here's some of compiled areas of interest, accurate as I can get...
CSA's and MSA's
New York: 22,087,640
Los Angeles: 17,775,984
Chicago: 9,725,317
Wash/Balt: 8,468,832
Boston/Prov: 7,465,634
San Fran: 7,228,948 + Stockton = 7,920,118
Philadelphia: 6,382,714 (even after adding Berks, seems futile when Dallas is roaring along)
Dallas: 6,310,520
Houston: 5,539,949
Atlanta: 5,478,667
Miami: 5,463,857
Detroit: 5,410, 014
Phoenix: 4,039,182
Seattle: 3,876,211
Minneapolis: 3,502,891
San Diego: 2,941,454

Thanks for compiling those numbers, liat. Wow...the rise of Phoenix is just shocking...it's at 13 already! The bunching of Houston-Atlanta-Miami-Detroit is remarkable, with all four in the mid 5's. Houston and Atlanta are growing faster than Miami, though, and all three will soon leave Detroit far behind. The Atlanta CSA has finally broken into the top ten (it's MSA already had been there). Boston, with its new pairing with Providence, rightly takes its place back up near the top of the chart. The booming sunbelt metros, tho, Dallas-Houston-Atlanta-Miami-Phoenix, can't be denied, and they will continue to march up the charts in coming decades. New York and LA are entities unto themselves, clearly in a population class by themselves. That is likely to remain the case for the foreseeable future.

john3eblover
Mar 23, 2007, 2:11 PM
Thanks for compiling those numbers, liat. Wow...the rise of Phoenix is just shocking...it's at 13 already! The bunching of Houston-Atlanta-Miami-Detroit is remarkable, with all four in the mid 5's. Houston and Atlanta are growing faster than Miami, though, and all three will soon leave Detroit far behind. The Atlanta CSA has finally broken into the top ten (it's MSA already had been there). Boston, with its new pairing with Providence, rightly takes its place back up near the top of the chart. The booming sunbelt metros, tho, Dallas-Houston-Atlanta-Miami-Phoenix, can't be denied, and they will continue to march up the charts in coming decades. New York and LA are entities unto themselves, clearly in a population class by themselves. That is likely to remain the case for the foreseeable future.

Living in the middle of the Wash/Balt CSA, its really apparent how it would be hard to separate those two metros into distinct areas, and the same for anything in this area all the way up to NYC and beyond. I've driven all the way up I-95 plenty of times, and its just packed with cities and people all the way basically. Its crazy up here. Although Baltimore as a city feels very dense, urban, old, and real, its metro seems quite small in comparison to other large metros..

SteveD
Mar 23, 2007, 2:54 PM
Here's some of compiled areas of interest, accurate as I can get...
CSA's and MSA's
New York: 22,087,640
Los Angeles: 17,775,984
Chicago: 9,725,317
Wash/Balt: 8,468,832
Boston/Prov: 7,465,634
San Fran: 7,228,948 + Stockton = 7,920,118
Philadelphia: 6,382,714 (even after adding Berks, seems futile when Dallas is roaring along)
Dallas: 6,310,520
Houston: 5,539,949
Atlanta: 5,478,667
Miami: 5,463,857
Detroit: 5,410, 014
Phoenix: 4,039,182
Seattle: 3,876,211
Minneapolis: 3,502,891
San Diego: 2,941,454

Liat..there's been some discussion in another thread comparing the populations of Miami, Atlanta, and Houston. The number you have in the list above for Houston is its 10-county MSA. It should read 5,641,077 for its 12-county CSA.

liat91
Mar 23, 2007, 6:44 PM
Liat..there's been some discussion in another thread comparing the populations of Miami, Atlanta, and Houston. The number you have in the list above for Houston is its 10-county MSA. It should read 5,641,077 for its 12-county CSA.

Thanks SteveD, I'll update that on my list.

LMich
Mar 24, 2007, 9:43 AM
Out of curiosity, which of the top 10 or 20 or so metros added counties? Also, can someone make a chart showing all of their physical sizes (i.e. square mileage) as of this year?

SteveD
Mar 24, 2007, 4:39 PM
Out of curiosity, which is the top 10 or 20 or so metros added counties? Also, can someone make a chart showing all of their physical sizes (i.e. square mileage) as of this year?


Atlanta didn't add counties going from 2005 to 2006, but it did add counties going from the 1990 to the 2000 census. I shudder to give the number of counties, because people always freak out, but the Atlanta MSA has a whopping 28 counties, and the Atlanta CSA has a whopping 33 counties! Of course, Georgia's counties are tiny compared to most other states, and Georgia has the most counties of any state in the country, save Texas. Having said all that, though, there's no denying that both the Atlanta MSA and the CSA encompass enormous swaths of land. The CSA stretches one county over into Alabama on the west side, and is within one county of the Chattanooga, TN, Athens, GA, and Macon GA MSAs, on the north, east and south sides, respectively. I'd like to see a chart like you mention also. Atlanta's CSA is roughly the same size as the Dallas and Houston CSAs, something a lot of people don't realize. Atlanta is the monster that ate north Georgia.

rds70
Mar 24, 2007, 5:33 PM
Denver-Aurora-Boulder MSA = 2,691,054
Denver-Boulder-Greeley CSA = 2,927,911

Population Change 2000-2006:

Denver-Aurora-Boulder MSA = +241,917
Denver-Boulder-Greeley CSA = +297,943

jcathens
Mar 24, 2007, 9:18 PM
I know somebody posted the list of CSA's. Can anyone post the MSA numbers. I'm kinda interested to see where Boston is on that list.

SteveD
Mar 24, 2007, 11:56 PM
I know somebody posted the list of CSA's. Can anyone post the MSA numbers. I'm kinda interested to see where Boston is on that list.


...if I have time, I will. It will be laborious, because it involves looking up the county components of each metro and then finding the 2006 estimate of each county, and adding up. I'd like to see that list too. I know the Atlanta MSA ranks higher on the MSA list than its CSA does on the CSA list. I think Atlanta is the 10th largest CSA but the 8th or 9th largest MSA.

Trae
Mar 25, 2007, 12:03 AM
Atlanta didn't add counties going from 2005 to 2006, but it did add counties going from the 1990 to the 2000 census. I shudder to give the number of counties, because people always freak out, but the Atlanta MSA has a whopping 28 counties, and the Atlanta CSA has a whopping 33 counties! Of course, Georgia's counties are tiny compared to most other states, and Georgia has the most counties of any state in the country, save Texas. Having said all that, though, there's no denying that both the Atlanta MSA and the CSA encompass enormous swaths of land. The CSA stretches one county over into Alabama on the west side, and is within one county of the Chattanooga, TN, Athens, GA, and Macon GA MSAs, on the north, east and south sides, respectively. I'd like to see a chart like you mention also. Atlanta's CSA is roughly the same size as the Dallas and Houston CSAs, something a lot of people don't realize. Atlanta is the monster that ate north Georgia.

This is also considering Texas counties are large (especially the ones around Houston). Montgomery County (northern Houston metro), is basically half rural and half urban. The southern side is close to Houston's big airport, and home to the Woodlands, Conroe, and the almost booming Willis, Tx. After you get over this hill in Willis, it becomes real rural. I would like to see some urban area numbers.

SlidellWx
Mar 25, 2007, 11:28 AM
Here are the first post-Katrina/Rita stats for the metro areas directly affected by these two storms in 2005 for Louisiana and Mississippi.

New Orleans MSA
7/1/2006 7/1/2005 Change

Orleans Parish 223,388 452,170 -228,782
Jefferson Parish 431,361 451,049 -19,688
St. Tammany Parish 230,605 219,814 10,791
St. Bernard Parish 15,514 65,147 -49,633
Plaquemines Parish 22,512 28,903 -6,391
St. Charles Parish 52,761 50,554 2,207
St. John Parish 48,537 46,150 2,387

Total 1,024,678 1,313,787 -289,109

New Orleans CMSA

Washington Parish 44,750 44,277 473

Total 1,069,428 1,358,064 -288.636

Baton Rouge MSA

Ascension Parish 97,335 90,447 6,888
E. Baton Rouge Parish 429,073 409,809 19,264
E. Feliciana Parish 20,922 20,703 219
Iberville Parish 32,974 32,160 814
Livingston Parish 114,805 108,958 5847
Pointe Coupee Parish 22,648 22,288 360
St. Helena Parish 10,759 10,138 621
W. Baton Rouge Parish 22,463 21,634 829
W. Feliciana Parish 15,535 15,185 350

Total 766,514 731,322 35,192

Baton Rouge CMSA

Assumption Parish 23,472 23,108 364

Total 789,986 754,430 35,556

Houma-Thibodaux MSA

Lafourche Parish 93,554 91,910 1,644
Terrebonne Parish 109,348 107,094 2,254

Total 202,902 199,004 3,898

Lafayette MSA

Lafayette Parish 203,091 196,627 6,464
St. Martin Parish 51,341 50,228 1,113

Total 254,432 246,855 7,577

Lake Charles MSA

Calcasieu Parish 184,524 184,708 -184
Cameron Parish 7,792 9,611 -1,819

Total 192,316 194,319 -2,003

Gulfport-Biloxi MSA

Hancock County 40,421 46,546 -6,125
Harrison County 171,875 193,187 -21,312
Stone County 15,608 14,883 725

Total 227,904 254,616 -26,712

Pascagoula MSA

Jackson County 130,557 135,571 -5,014
George County 21,828 21,171 657

Total 152,385 156,742 -4357

Gulfport-Biloxi-Pascagoula CMSA

Total 380,289 411,358 -31,069

jcathens
Mar 25, 2007, 3:07 PM
I might try and to some math on the MSA's later. Its interesting because boston's CSA is over 7 million, and their MSA is just over 4 I believe. Quite a glom of metros come together for that statistic.

SteveD
Mar 25, 2007, 4:43 PM
I took a couple hours this morning to compile this Top 20 MSA list based on the new census county estimates dated July 1 2006, and based on a prior poster's request.

1. New York-Northern New Jersey-Long Island, NY-NJ-PA 18,330,835
2. Los Angeles-Long Beach-Santa Ana, CA 12,950,129
3. Chicago-Naperville-Joliet, IL-IN-WI 9,505,748
4. Dallas-Fort Worth-Arlington, TX 6,003,967
5. Philadelphia-Camden-Wilmington, PA-NJ-DE-MD 5,826,742
6. Houston-Sugar Land-Baytown, TX 5,539,949
7. Miami-Fort Lauderdale-Miami Beach, FL 5,463,857
8. Washington-Arlington-Alexandria, DC-VA-MD-WV 5,290,400
9. Atlanta-Sandy Springs-Marietta, GA 5,138,223
10. Detroit-Warren-Livonia, MI 4,468,966
11. Boston-Cambridge-Quincy, MA-NH 4,455,217
12. San Francisco-Oakland-Fremont, CA 4,180,027
13. Phoenix-Mesa-Scottsdale, AZ 4,039,182
14. Riverside-San Bernardino-Ontario, CA 4,026,135
15. Seattle-Tacoma-Bellevue, WA 3,263,497
16. Minneapolis-St. Paul-Bloomington, MN-WI 3,175,041
17. San Diego-Carlsbad-San Marcos, CA 2,941,454
18. St. Louis, MO-IL 2,820,377
19. Tampa-St. Petersburg-Clearwater, FL 2,697,731
20. Baltimore-Towson, MD 2,658,405


This was quite a laborious process so if anyone thinks I compiled any of the data in error please let me know. Let the wild MSA vs. CSA vs. Urban Area discussions begin!

jcathens
Mar 25, 2007, 4:53 PM
Great work steve, appreciate the hard work.

john3eblover
Mar 25, 2007, 6:37 PM
I took a couple hours this morning to compile this Top 20 MSA list based on the new census county estimates dated July 1 2006, and based on a prior poster's request.

1. New York-Northern New Jersey-Long Island, NY-NJ-PA 18,330,835
2. Los Angeles-Long Beach-Santa Ana, CA 12,950,129
3. Chicago-Naperville-Joliet, IL-IN-WI 9,505,748
4. Dallas-Fort Worth-Arlington, TX 6,003,967
5. Philadelphia-Camden-Wilmington, PA-NJ-DE-MD 5,826,742
6. Houston-Sugar Land-Baytown, TX 5,539,949
7. Miami-Fort Lauderdale-Miami Beach, FL 5,463,857
8. Washington-Arlington-Alexandria, DC-VA-MD-WV 5,290,400
9. Atlanta-Sandy Springs-Marietta, GA 5,138,223
10. Detroit-Warren-Livonia, MI 4,468,966
11. Boston-Cambridge-Quincy, MA-NH 4,455,217
12. San Francisco-Oakland-Fremont, CA 4,180,027
13. Phoenix-Mesa-Scottsdale, AZ 4,039,182
14. Riverside-San Bernardino-Ontario, CA 4,026,135
15. Seattle-Tacoma-Bellevue, WA 3,263,497
16. Minneapolis-St. Paul-Bloomington, MN-WI 3,175,041
17. San Diego-Carlsbad-San Marcos, CA 2,941,454
18. St. Louis, MO-IL 2,820,377
19. Tampa-St. Petersburg-Clearwater, FL 2,697,731
20. Baltimore-Towson, MD 2,658,405


This was quite a laborious process so if anyone thinks I compiled any of the data in error please let me know. Let the wild MSA vs. CSA vs. Urban Area discussions begin!

Thanks for putting this together Steve! Great job.

Looks like things have moved around a little since the last time I looked at the MSA rankings...is Dallas new in #4? That's not going to please Philly very much...Seems like Detroit has fallen quite a bit in the last few years.

#4-9 are bunched pretty close together...it will be interesting to see how things change at the current rate of expansion for some cities like Phoenix, Atlanta, etc.

SteveD
Mar 25, 2007, 6:45 PM
Yes...Dallas moving up to #4 on the MSA rankings is new with these latest census estimates. The Metroplex is a monster. However, the Philly CSA is still larger than the Dallas CSA. That will be changing soon too, though, with the relative rates of growth of the two. Atlanta drops from 9 to 10 on the CSA list, since both the Boston and San Fran CSA's are larger than the Atlanta CSA, but the Atlanta CSA is larger than the Miami MSA (which doesn't have a corresponding CSA). Dallas is the 4th largest MSA but the 8th largest CSA (the DC, Philly, Boston and San Fran CSAs are all larger). Houston is the 6th largest MSA but the 9th largest CSA.

jcathens
Mar 25, 2007, 7:09 PM
What exactly is the purpose of the CSA? Is it for commuting patterns between metros that touch?

SteveD
Mar 25, 2007, 8:08 PM
What exactly is the purpose of the CSA? Is it for commuting patterns between metros that touch?

Essentially, yes. The Census bureau defines a CSA as follows: "A geographic entity consisting of two or more adjacent Core Based Statistical Areas (CBSA) (metropolitan and/or micropolitan areas) with employment interchange measures of at least 15. Pairs of CBSAs with employment interchange measures of at least 25 combine automatically. Pairs of CBSAs with employment interchange measures of at least 15, but less than 25, may combine if local opinion in both areas favors combination."

I'd say if the "Brain Train" ever gets built between Atlanta and Athens then the Athens GA metro would get wrapped up into the Atlanta CSA pretty quickly.

TexasBoi
Mar 26, 2007, 4:22 PM
great job Steve.:tup: It will be interesting to see the UA populations now. I think the one everyone has posted the past few years are only from 2000. Wonder what it is now seeing as how many on this board actually think that is the true representative on how big or how urban a city or metro really is.

simms3
Mar 26, 2007, 10:33 PM
alright let me put my word in about the whole ATL thing, i go to school here now, and I do not like atlanta at all, and coming from florida, i miss water, palm trees, and longer periods of prolonged heat. i cannot wait to get out of here and either move back to florida or up to new york, chicago, or boston. If i was going to be any further north than jacksonville, then it would have to be in a real city like the ones mentioned. altanta sucks, i have some family that lives in east marietta or something along those lines, but it seems more like a road trip to get there, and if there is traffic, it is like 20 lanes of friday night south beach traffic, ridiculous! i have gone up to the one water area in the metro it seems like (lake lanier) to a friends house, and it took an hour and a half, and we were still in metro atlanta I SWEAR! there was a mall not too far down 400. while atlanta does have some cool parts in the inner core (the highlands and even decatur), buckhead is about the only nice place i would live here. people around here rave about buckhead all the time and how nice it was, well i forgot about how nice florida is and just got back from palm beach and coral gables, buckhead pales in comparison and is in fact cheaper than most average places in jacksonville, where i live, and moct of jacksonville isnt even "nice". i have a friend who's sister is moving to atlanta from new york (that has to be depressing, she does not know what she is getting herself into), and she is moving into a nice condo in buckhead for only 1400 or so a month! I guess that's why people move here because its sinful how cheap everything is, could it be because there are no palm trees, beaches, and rivers, and the intracoastal? The nightlife is better than where i am from, but barely, and im comparing a 5.something God knows by now metro to a 1.3 million person metro. Even the Greyhound station where i live is palatial compared to the one situated conveniently in a bad area by the garnett marta station. by the way a one way ticket on marta is $6.75, this is marta we are talking about here, not the new york subway where many people have no car. no f*****g wonder people ride their suburbans 100 miles from their house in the woods to work in atlanta!

people comparing miami to atlanta, live in the latter and visit miami all the time, there is a BIG difference. atlanta is 5 million people spread out over the size of a country whereas miami is 5 million people in what may equal out to be just fulton county. miami is an urban thriving city, atlanta is a suburban thriving metro. while i could not live in dade county, at least i could live in broward or palm beach (if i can afford them someday), but you could not pay me to live anywhere in the country of atlanta!

SteveD
Mar 26, 2007, 10:45 PM
alright let me put my word in about the whole ATL thing,

The "whole ATL thing" ???:shrug: what in the world are you talking about? What "whole ATL thing"?? This is a thread about the census bureau's most recent county population estimates. Thanks for sharing your completely negative opinions about Atlanta! If you want to write several paragraphs doing nothing but ragging about a particular US metro why don't you start you own thread rather than pollute mine. Let me suggest a title..."Why I hate Atlanta". Thanks for nothing, bud.

john3eblover
Mar 26, 2007, 10:55 PM
uh, a one way ticket on marta is still 1.75, or at least it was last week when I rode all the way from Doraville to the airport....

Trae
Mar 26, 2007, 11:36 PM
One reason why Miami probably doesn't have a CSA is because it really is dense down there (in the metro as a whole).

SteveD
Mar 27, 2007, 12:09 AM
One reason why Miami probably doesn't have a CSA is because it really is dense down there (in the metro as a whole).

Trae; I don't think it has as much to do with the density of the metro, which is impressive, as it does the linear layout. The metro is hemmed up against the coast by the Everglades, and since CSAs are created by adjoining metros which share a certain percentage of commuters, I think the likelihood of Miami having a CSA for the foreseeable future are slim. The MSA is already comprised of Dade, Broward and Palm Beach Counties, so the only way for Miami to have a CSA would be for an independent either MSA or micropolitan area to form in an adjoining county such as Monroe or Martin, which doesn't seem likely in the foreseeable future. And further, were such a metropolitan or micropolitan area to develop in one of those two counties, cross commuting would likely not occur due to the distances which would need to be overcome as a result of the linear nature of the existing MSA. The MSA already measures over 100 miles in the north-to-south orientation. Of course Collier, west of Dade and Broward, stretches all the way across the state to the Gulf, and includes developed areas such as Naples, but there will never be appreciable commuting between the Gulf and the Atlantic, and the two areas certainly don't identify with each other, which is the only other consideration the census bureau uses when forming CSAs.

john3eblover
Mar 27, 2007, 2:51 AM
in some ways, it seems like Atlanta shouldn't have a CSA...I mean Gaineseville is already basically in the MSA, at least in my mind, as well as Sandy Springs and Marietta.

SteveD
Mar 27, 2007, 3:00 AM
in some ways, it seems like Atlanta shouldn't have a CSA...I mean Gaineseville is already basically in the MSA, at least in my mind, as well as Sandy Springs and Marietta.

John, I understand the point you're making and it puzzles me too. I believe it basically revolves around peripheral areas that have characteristics of standing on their own, but which still send a percentage of their workers to the adjoining MSA, or, areas which send a lower percentage of their workers to the adjoining MSA but which strongly identify with the adjacent MSA. I don't have the census stats, but I'd bet Gainesville probably fits into the latter of those two, with respect to the Atlanta CSA.

jcathens
Mar 27, 2007, 3:25 AM
I don't think Atlanta should have a CSA either, Gainesville is now a suburb basically. If anything the CSA should include Athens.

john3eblover
Mar 27, 2007, 1:43 PM
I mean, you have Washington DC metro, which counts Arlington and Alexandria in their "MSA", which those cities are clearly very distinct cities on their own, even though I do think they should be counted into the metro, and then you add on Baltimore into their CSA. Atlanta adds on Gainesville and Sandy Springs into the CSA? Those places are already clearly absorbed into the megablob of Atlanta, they should be in the MSA easily. IF anything, Athens, Macon, Columbus, maybe even Greenville, Chattanooga, cities that far out would be my interpretation of the CSA. But i guess it all boils down to technicalities.

Heck, the DC/Baltimore CSA includes like 4 states, why shouldn't ours? We clearly influence the states around us, SC, AL and TN?

Trae
Mar 27, 2007, 8:25 PM
I think they are already in Atlanta's MSA (Sandy Springs at least). The CSA just defines the main cities in it (which would be Atlanta-Sandy Springs-Gainesville?).

SteveD
Mar 27, 2007, 11:21 PM
:previous: No. Whether it's MSA or CSA, the census will (in most cases) list the three largest cities in that region. So for the MSA, it's Atlanta Sandy Springs and Marietta. For the CSA, it's Atlanta, Sandy Springs and Gainesville. The Gainesville MSA is part of Atlanta's CSA but not its MSA. If you go back and read the very first post of this thread which I wrote you'll see that four micropolitan areas, and one metropolitan area (Gainesville) are added to Atlanta's MSA to form the CSA.

holladay
Mar 31, 2007, 11:02 AM
having lived in atlanta for four years i think its CSA numbers are rediculous. ive been to newton, barrow, jackson, walton, rockdale, dawson, etc. and those counties are nothing but sticks with a bunch of crap ass subdivisons popping up. they are experiencing tons of growth but there is really no THERE there. atlanta, to me, is still only fulton, dekalb, cobb, gwinnett, clayton, cherokee, henry, douglas, coweta, fayette, forsyth, paulding, bartow and maybe rockdale and hall. really and truly that's the bulk of the atlanta area and even though it includes all the principle areas it is still composed of a lot of HIGHLY undeveloped fringe counties. i mean, even in henry and cherokee there are large areas that are not even populated at all.

john3eblover
Mar 31, 2007, 1:26 PM
how is hall county "atlanta" and rockdale isn't?

SteveD
Mar 31, 2007, 2:38 PM
having lived in atlanta for four years i think its CSA numbers are rediculous. ive been to newton, barrow, jackson, walton, rockdale, dawson, etc. and those counties are nothing but sticks with a bunch of crap ass subdivisons popping up. they are experiencing tons of growth but there is really no THERE there. atlanta, to me, is still only fulton, dekalb, cobb, gwinnett, clayton, cherokee, henry, douglas, coweta, fayette, forsyth, paulding, bartow and maybe rockdale and hall. really and truly that's the bulk of the atlanta area and even though it includes all the principle areas it is still composed of a lot of HIGHLY undeveloped fringe counties. i mean, even in henry and cherokee there are large areas that are not even populated at all.

Realm, I understand the point you're making, and it's common knowledge that the Atlanta MSA and CSA are the least dense of the nation's large metros; however, the CSA definition is not arbitrary. It is what it is. It's derived based on commuting patterns, and how the local population considers itself with respect to the adjacent primary city. Atlanta's CSA and MSA counties are therefore no more or less rediculous than the majority of other large sprawling sunbelt boomtowns, which also have far-flung largely undeveloped tracts within their MSAs and CSAs (such as Houston, Dallas, Phoenix...hell, even L.A.!). Also, with respect to the Atlanta MSAs and CSAs being the least dense, there are several other large MSAs and CSAs which come pretty darn close to matching our low density sprawl, to wit, some which I've just metioned.

GREGGYMIAMI305
Mar 31, 2007, 8:32 PM
The "whole ATL thing" ???:shrug: what in the world are you talking about? What "whole ATL thing"?? This is a thread about the census bureau's most recent county population estimates. Thanks for sharing your completely negative opinions about Atlanta! If you want to write several paragraphs doing nothing but ragging about a particular US metro why don't you start you own thread rather than pollute mine. Let me suggest a title..."Why I hate Atlanta". Thanks for nothing, bud.


he's right

I went to atlanta for the first time last year expecting a "urban city"
it was a dissapointment. After you leave downtown atlanta, its like being in a forest Everything is so far apart from each other.Even Orlando Florida is more urban
Miami is a thousands times more urban than both

SteveD
Mar 31, 2007, 10:32 PM
he's right

I went to atlanta for the first time last year expecting a "urban city"
it was a dissapointment. After you leave downtown atlanta, its like being in a forest Everything is so far apart from each other.Even Orlando Florida is more urban
Miami is a thousands times more urban than both

Well, you're certainly entitled to your opinion. To suggest that Orlando is more urban than Atlanta is, well, questionable and ill-informed at best, and laughable at worst. Atlanta's "forest" is one of the primary reasons that hundreds of thousands of new residents flock here YEARLY. And I'll say to you what I said to him...I created this thread to discuss the census bureau's latest county population estimates. If you ALSO want to rag about Atlanta, first, join the club, next, you can be the second poster on his "Why I Hate Atlanta" thread. I wonder if he's created it yet.

john3eblover
Mar 31, 2007, 11:56 PM
you tell em Steve.

netdragon
Apr 17, 2007, 4:53 AM
Of all the Sunbelt boomers, Atlanta and environs is always the biggest mystery to me. Cities in Florida, Arizona, even Texas make sense (beach, warmth, golf, etc.). Atlanta is more of a head-scratcher. Inland location, far from ideal weather, high crime, crazy commutes, etc.

J-O-B-S and lower cost of living that's why we moved down here. :D

KB0679
Apr 17, 2007, 7:52 AM
CSA numbers are based on commuting patterns, not how developed counties included in the CSA are. If anything, the lack of development in those counties explain why a cetain percentage of their population must travel to one of the core metro counties for employment which is why they are included in the CSA.

gripja
May 4, 2007, 2:02 AM
I guess I'll be a different voice, basically I hear everyone cheering that their city is growing in leaps and bounds but I'm not at all upset that it looks like NYC lost a few residents, cuz even tho having a lot of people around is cool its also f'ing crowded in this city, traffic jams... 10 people per square foot in the subways... can't walk down 1 block in the city without hitting 15 shoulders.... astronomical housing prices cuz the city is so damn popular.... I wouldn't mind if another million left NYC for Phoenix or Atlanta -- enjoy the future crowds all you forumers in those booming cities, I'll enjoy NYC more if there is a few less people around :)

Then again -- more people more skyscrapers ;)

LMich
May 4, 2007, 2:40 AM
NYC lost population? Over what years are you referring to?

john3eblover
May 4, 2007, 12:16 PM
I guess I'll be a different voice, basically I hear everyone cheering that their city is growing in leaps and bounds but I'm not at all upset that it looks like NYC lost a few residents, cuz even tho having a lot of people around is cool its also f'ing crowded in this city, traffic jams... 10 people per square foot in the subways... can't walk down 1 block in the city without hitting 15 shoulders.... astronomical housing prices cuz the city is so damn popular.... I wouldn't mind if another million left NYC for Phoenix or Atlanta -- enjoy the future crowds all you forumers in those booming cities, I'll enjoy NYC more if there is a few less people around :)

this is blasphemy! Don't you know that NYC is the holy grail of all cities! You should be wishing for MORE people! Absolute mind numbing urbanity! 100 people per sq ft in the subways! Housing so expensive you will absolutely go into bankruptcy! Its worth it! There is nothing better than having the streets so jam packed with people that you can't breathe!! :D

ATLian12
May 12, 2007, 6:50 AM
Buckhead is just as nice if not nicer than alot or most of the places in Miami, more affordable plus you dont have to worry about your place blowing down because of a hurricane.

Sure the beaches are great but you can take a 6 hour trip to anywhere on the panhandle from Atlanta which I prefer over the Atlantic any day.

Over the next 10 years Atlanta's population in city will double to 800 plus up to a million even and its suburban population will continue to grow also at almost the same pace.

brickell
May 12, 2007, 8:50 PM
Are you really rationalizing Atlanta by saying the beach is 6 hours away? I'm not taking anything away from Atlanta, but we're talking about walking out your door, into the boat and 15 minutes to direct ocean access, not a day at the beach.

sprtsluvr8
May 12, 2007, 11:46 PM
Are you really rationalizing Atlanta by saying the beach is 6 hours away? I'm not taking anything away from Atlanta, but we're talking about walking out your door, into the boat and 15 minutes to direct ocean access, not a day at the beach.

I think panhandle beaches are actually more like 5 hours away, and the Georgia coast/Jacksonville is closer...but I didn't think anyone was "rationalizing" Atlanta, just making a statement about its proximity to beaches. Whether a couple of hours in the car is near or far is relative...if you live in Nebraska you might think that drive is nothing and Atlanta is next to the ocean. It's great that youcan be on the ocean in 15 minutes, but apparently that isn't important to everyone in the world because many, many, many humans live inland. I can be in the Appalachian Mountains in 30 minutes, how long does it take you to get there?

brickell
May 13, 2007, 3:28 AM
I'm not going to get into the city vs city thing. I just think it's silly to use a 5 hour car ride as a comparison, but more power to Atlanta and Buckhead and all that sprawl.

LMich
May 13, 2007, 3:58 AM
That really did seem odd, since the thread had been dead for a few days, and someone comes in pitting city against city for apparently no reason. Let's stop it, here and now.

john3eblover
May 13, 2007, 4:23 AM
I'm not going to get into the city vs city thing. I just think it's silly to use a 5 hour car ride as a comparison, but more power to Atlanta and Buckhead and all that sprawl.

because Miami doesn't sprawl