[fflint]

In the car v. public transit debate, I'd like to throw out for discussion a possible third way: motorcycles. Full disclosure: I just got my motorcycle license Monday.

Motorcycles generally offer the "freedom" avid motorists covet, yet they're also extremely fuel efficient and take less physical space to park, two qualities even the most die-hard urbanist can appreciate. There are obvious drawbacks such as weather and weight/size limits on cargo and extra passengers, of course.

Ideas about this?

[Chicago103]

I think this should be in the transportation forum along with my thread.

I agree with what you are saying though, its another alternative, a motorcycle license is still a driver's license of sorts. Its also another interesting alternative from a HS driver's ed perspective because motorcycles are often seen as "cool" by teenagers. Id rather have teenagers showing off driving their motorcyles to school rather than all the 16 year old brats competing to have the biggest SUV with spinning rims.

[mhays]

As long as they're quiet. There's nothing worse than one of those "hi, I'm compensating for my lack of ___" harleys, etc.

Other countries are better at dense living than we are. Fewer car alarms, loud stereos, harleys, etc.

[fflint]

As long as they're quiet. There's nothing worse than one of those "hi, I'm compensating for my lack of ___" harleys, etc.
I'm not a Harley fan.

Other countries are better at dense living than we are. Fewer car alarms, loud stereos, harleys, etc.
Other countries also seem to have more motorcycle riders, at least in the big Euro and Asian cities. I don't have statistics for that impression, I should add.

[Frisco_Zig]

In the car v. public transit debate, I'd like to throw out for discussion a possible third way: motorcycles. Full disclosure: I just got my motorcycle license Monday.

Motorcycles generally offer the "freedom" avid motorists covet, yet they're also extremely fuel efficient and take less physical space to park, two qualities even the most die-hard urbanist can appreciate. There are obvious drawbacks such as weather and weight/size limits on cargo and extra passengers, of course.

Ideas about this?

I've owned them but be careful out there. For some they are just to dangereous

[Frisco_Zig]

I'm not a Harley fan.


Other countries also seem to have more motorcycle riders, at least in the big Euro and Asian cities. I don't have statistics for that impression, I should add.


Without a doubt this is true. SouthEast Asian cities are packed with them

I think cities can do things to encourage more motorcycles (and scooters) by slowing down traffic and making parking easier for the bikes

[wong21fr]

There is the danger factor to consider, a sixteen year old in a car is one thing, but on a motorcycle....

On the other hand, a motorcycle accident tends to end up with only the motorcyclist being injured.

But, if we are talking about motorcycles why not jump to the more urban-friendly option, motor scooters?

Though, I really don't think motorcyclist don't want to slow down traffic based on my experience. The ability to go fast is one of the bigger draws, as well as the maneuverability.

[Frisco_Zig]

[QUOTE=wong21fr;2725374]There is the danger factor to consider, a sixteen year old in a car is one thing, but on a motorcycle....

On the other hand, a motorcycle accident tends to end up with only the motorcyclist being injured.QUOTE]

I was alwasy careful on my bike. I was worried about the A-hole in the SUV on the cell phone. in that crash the fault is irrelvant if you are dead

Maybe we can ban SUVs in the city

[arkhitektor]

I think that Mopeds and Scooters present a good alternative on city streets, but neither they nor motorcycles belong on the freeway.

Last week on my way home from work, a motorcyclist was recklessley passing cars between lanes during rush hour. Several miles further down the road, his bike was wrecked on the side of the interstate, and he was being taken away in an ambulance.

That and the time I saw a man die as we tried to revive him on the side of the road after he wrecked his motorcycle have effectivlely turned me off to the notion that motorcycles are a good thing.

Per mile traveled, the risk of death in a motorcycle accident is 16 times greater than in car or truck accidents. I personally would never ride one for any reason.

[Xelebes]

Put training wheels on the bike. :)

[Swede]

I think that Mopeds and Scooters present a good alternative on city streets, but neither they nor motorcycles belong on the freeway.
I truely hate mopeds (another Swedish word btw :D). Most of the ones in my 'hood are stolen (I'm assuming), go at 50+km/h on pedestrian streets, preferably as loud as possible.
/maybe it's different in non-"european concrete suburb" areas.



But motorcycles are an alternative to cars, but IMO not to mass transit at all. Certainly fills a niche that does exist.

[Nutterbug]

How does the per person gas usage of a motorcycle compare to a car full of carpoolers?

[LordMandeep]

I notice a lot of scooters in the middle of the Summer downtown.

If you live downtown its not bad. In the winter you take transit.

Very smart actually...

[LostInTheZone]

I have a bicycle for when I don't want to walk or take transit. I'd love to get a motorcycle, but it fails at the two things I'd want a car for- longer tips out of the city, and transporting big heavy things. They're useless in bad weather, and that's about 2/3 of the year on the east coast. If I got one it would be purely for pleasure.

[Cirrus]

Vespas (http://www.vespausa.com/) are very popular around these parts. There's a dealership in Glover Park, DC.

At least in my neighborhood, I definitely see more of them than motorcycles.

[LordMandeep]

yeah Vespas are what they are.,..

[AZheat]

They're smaller, so that's a good thing, but they cause much more pollution than an automobile, in fact I've read various reports that say a motorcycle will emit about sixteen times as much pollution. http://www.motoring.co.za/index.php?fArticleId=3048190
They've never been regulated like the automobile because there's relatively few of them. It does seem to make sense from a size point of view though. A single person driving a full sized car (which is typical) is what commuters see everyday on their drive to work. If the pollution problem could be taken care of, which I'm sure it could, then motorcycles would make alot of sense.

[ssiguy]

I have a 2005 Yamaha 125 scooter {his name is Luigi} and he's great. Park anywhere I want, $3 to tank him, top speed of 85km/hr so great around town.
They are a great alternative and quieter than motorcycles.

It does howver, depend on your job and the weather. In Canada you can only realistically drive it 8 months a year. They are great for older cities where roads are thinner and parking is at a premium. That is why Montrealers have the highest scooter sales in the country.

It is amazing how they have grown in popularity in Canada. 5 years ago Canada had only 2 importers of scooters and now there are 10. Ten years ago scooters only represented 2% of motorcycle sales in Canada. That figure is now 13% and raising fast. That is especially good because motorcycle sales have also increased greatly.

[fflint]

How does the per person gas usage of a motorcycle compare to a car full of carpoolers?
That is a good question, and I don't know the answer. My partner claims his bike gets 70 miles per gallon. Of course, I should point out carpools are extremly limited in coverage areas and times.

[fflint]

They're smaller, so that's a good thing, but they cause much more pollution than an automobile, in fact I've read various reports that say a motorcycle will emit about sixteen times as much pollution. http://www.motoring.co.za/index.php?fArticleId=3048190
They've never been regulated like the automobile because there's relatively few of them. It does seem to make sense from a size point of view though. A single person driving a full sized car (which is typical) is what commuters see everyday on their drive to work. If the pollution problem could be taken care of, which I'm sure it could, then motorcycles would make alot of sense.
Interesting. Here is the article in its entirety:
Motorcycle pollution 'worse than a car'

December 28, 2005

An Swiss institute is claiming that motorcycles cause more pollution than cars.

The Federal Laboratory for Materials Testing and Research said a typical motorcycle emitted 16 times more hydrocarbons, three times more carbon monoxide and a "disproportionately high" amount of other air pollutants than a car.

The root of the problem seems to be that Western governments have never taken motorcycle pollution seriously. They are such a small proportion of total traffic that strict legislation against them has never been signed.

However, it does present an interesting perspective on the London "congestion charge" for which one justification was lower pollution - but, as lots of car drivers have bought themselves scooters instead, is there any net benefit?
Here where I live, motorcycles are regulated according to California emissions standards. But if in fact motorcycles do pollute more than cars, as claimed in the article, and if there are few emissions standards for them in most places, then that would be an argument against increased motorcycle use--unless and until motorcycles are made cleaner, that is.

[wong21fr]

Fflint, this is a silly question but I'm assuming that motorcycles are regulated the same throughout all of CA, correct?

Another issue that would arise would be noise. Motorcycles tend to be a lot louder than cars so would noise pollution be a major hinderence?

[queetz@home]

I'm thinking of getting a motorcycle too, similar to what ssiguy has. I can totally see why they are very popular in Southeast Asia, where I currently live. Its very cheap to maintain and you can easily weave through traffic. Plus its easier to find parking. I live right beside a business district (see below) which I go too often but because of the ridiculous heavy traffic, it can actually take 30 minutes!

http://i111.photobucket.com/albums/n122/queetz9/Miscellaneous/OC_aerial.jpg

It can be quite a brutal walk because of the heat and pointless to take public transit (we have small jitney buses called "jeepneys") since it gets stuck in traffic anyway. A motorcycle, scooter or moped can do wonders to get in such a nearby destination (even to get to the shopping complex where the MRT station is). Now if only I can make what I lost in the local stock market so I can buy one already!

[fflint]

Fflint, this is a silly question but I'm assuming that motorcycles are regulated the same throughout all of CA, correct?

Another issue that would arise would be noise. Motorcycles tend to be a lot louder than cars so would noise pollution be a major hinderence?
You know, I looked into it, and California has certain emissions standards for new motorcycles--but they are enforced against the manufacturer, and not the motorcyle owner. Unlike with cars, the county in which you live doesn't matter. Also, the "newer, tighter" emissions standards for motor bikes was set in 2004. So...given most motorcycles are probably older than 2004 models, and given you can bring a motorcycle in from out of state, I'm guessing many, perhaps most, motorcycles don't meet whatever new standard has been set by the state.

That would also hold true for scooters, by the way.

As for noise, yep. They're noisier than cars and about on par with trucks. I would support a DMV sound standard, just as I would support tougher emissions standards and smog checks for bikes.

[wong21fr]

Are we talking about certain kinds of motorcycles? I'd like to see what type of motorcycle people are thinking about in regards to alternative's to cars.

A chopper, crotch rocket, cruiser, what exactly?

[fflint]

Street motorcycles: touring, cruiser, sport, standard, and at least according to my motorcycle training materials, scooters
Hybrid: dual purpose (street and off-road)
Off-Road: enduro, motocross, trial

[Buckeye Native 001]

If I ever had the chance to move to Downtown San Francisco or Los Angeles, I'd ditch The Green Bastard for a scooter. It'd get me closer to my dream of owning a Honda...