[Coldrsx]

domestic is still going very very strong...which IMO is our most important number. I think of all the numbers this one has been the biggest surprise.

ok ERAA.....time to get a story out there in the journal about how in 12months you have 1,000,000 more people through you than this time last yr.

[CMD UW]

YEG, why are you so glorious??? We are achieving some good critical mass for passengers....now gimme some flights.

[Edmonchuck]

gimmie open skies, a demolished muni, and a Travel Alberta that gives a shit, you'll see more flights.

[MalcolmTucker]

gimmie open skies, a demolished muni, and a Travel Alberta that gives a shit, you'll see more flights.

Why would a demolished muni give more flights? Nothing of any significance can fly in there anyways?

[CMD UW]

gimmie open skies, a demolished muni, and a Travel Alberta that gives a shit, you'll see more flights.

I believe that open skies is thee hitch. The rest are relatively insignificant.

[Edmonchuck]

Why would a demolished muni give more flights? Nothing of any significance can fly in there anyways?

It removes the last bit of uncertainty.

As long as it exists in a form that can readily be ramped back up to 1979, the more risk new carriers have in this market.

What can fly in there? CRJ, EMB, etc...

I think that in 2007 the steadfast resolve of the ERAA as well as the city getting its act together has all but made this airport moot, but...

[Edmonchuck]

I believe that open skies is thee hitch. The rest are relatively insignificant.


Agreed

[YYCguys]

As somebody who flies in and out of the (Edmonton) International Airport quite frequently and has to travel copious amounts of time to get my hotel in DT Edmonton, I must say that if I had a choice of flying into the Muni, I would. What the International Airport needs is a rail link, or at least an express bus, courtesy of Edmonton Transit.

As most you know, Toronto has it's City Centre Airport as well as it's International Airport. The GTAA has restricted air travel into the CC Airport, much like Edmonton has, but at least they have a number of public transit options to get you from the nearest train station, etc to the Internation airport! So Edmonton Transit, what are you waiting for?!?!

[Edmonchuck]

So Edmonton Transit, what are you waiting for?!?!

The County and City of Leduc to get on board. Period. That's it.

Welcome to one of the many many many STUPID things that happen here and why we harp on the regional debate.

[Coldrsx]

As somebody who flies in and out of the (Edmonton) International Airport quite frequently and has to travel copious amounts of time to get my hotel in DT Edmonton, I must say that if I had a choice of flying into the Muni, I would.


copious amounts of time? 30min?

[Edmonchuck]

HAHA, yeah I saw that too.

Gee, I spend 30+ mins in a cab when I fly to YYZ and travel to DT, or Scarberia.

SEA to DT...30 mins on a good day, but if East Marginal's exit is SNAFU, then much longer.

Even YVR to DT is a long time.

YYC to DT in a cab...gee, funny I find it 20+ and if the Deathfoot/Memory Lane are SNAFU - longer.

So, are you talking $$$ due to distance? Then, the new zones make it one fare, and a pretty fair fare....

[brento79]

Edmonton feels like a long way due to the airport being out in Nisku, and then there not being a direct route to downtown. So even though it doesn't take longer than alot of cities, driving down Gateway, then down through the river valley and then up the other side creates a perception of a longer trip. I find it more tiring than most...however does it create a need for the CC Airport? Nope, just a want by a very small group of people.

[MalcolmTucker]

HAHA, yeah I saw that too.

Gee, I spend 30+ mins in a cab when I fly to YYZ and travel to DT, or Scarberia.

SEA to DT...30 mins on a good day, but if East Marginal's exit is SNAFU, then much longer.

Even YVR to DT is a long time.

YYC to DT in a cab...gee, funny I find it 20+ and if the Deathfoot/Memory Lane are SNAFU - longer.

So, are you talking $$$ due to distance? Then, the new zones make it one fare, and a pretty fair fare....

I think what we see here is more perception rather than reality as to the disincentive to use the international due to time from downtown.

What people are complaining about is a lack of options. Let me tell you, from YVR I can get to downtown Vancouver faster on public transit than if I run out the door and grab a cab from the international.

Perceptions are very hard to change - especially when Dorval, Pearson, YVR and YYC are all firmly within the urban foot print of their CMA.

You know, if the muni was opened to Dash 8s like the Toronto Island Airport, you would probably see a reasonable uptake into the muni without a comparable loss going into the international. If you have it whats the problem?

They serve different markets, and soon enough the muni is going to have an LRT station right on the boundary lands. If I flew into the muni, I wouldn't need to rent a car, or go in a cab to conduct business in downtown or the university.

[IKAN104]

Are you trying to tell us what's best for Edmonton or what's best for you?

[LO 044]

As somebody who flies in and out of the (Edmonton) International Airport quite frequently and has to travel copious amounts of time to get my hotel in DT Edmonton, I must say that if I had a choice of flying into the Muni, I would.
So honestly, what is the travel time in a cab from YYC to Downtown Calgary during peak and non-peak hours? Just curious.

The above statement also shows why we need to get rid of the muni. As long as even one runway exists, there will always be people asking "why not re-open the muni". It's time to put down the wounded old dog. The muni benefits few people outside of Edmonton. It does not benefit Edmontonians, in terms of air service, at all.

and soon enough the muni is going to have an LRT station right on the boundary lands. If I flew into the muni, I wouldn't need to rent a car, or go in a cab to conduct business in downtown or the university.
The last station of the current NLRT study is to be where the curling club / old Arby's location is / was at the north end of Kingsway Mall. It has no direction after that although the station is angled to cross Princess Elizabeth Avenue and go straight into the two Muni runways. Let us hope this will actually be the death of the muni instead of its ressurection.

[Edmonchuck]

I think what we see here is more perception rather than reality as to the disincentive to use the international due to time from downtown.

What people are complaining about is a lack of options. Let me tell you, from YVR I can get to downtown Vancouver faster on public transit than if I run out the door and grab a cab from the international.

Ok, I know from experience that the bus service to DT Vancouver is in no way faster than a cab from YEG to TELUS Plaza., nor is it anywhere near as convenient. No......freaking.....way....in....hell. My WORST time is 31 mins, but I average 25. The only time that argument will ever hold water is when the Canada line is done.

You want a bus to YEG, ask Leduc County.

You know, if the muni was opened to Dash 8s like the Toronto Island Airport, you would probably see a reasonable uptake into the muni without a comparable loss going into the international. If you have it whats the problem?

They serve different markets, and soon enough the muni is going to have an LRT station right on the boundary lands. If I flew into the muni, I wouldn't need to rent a car, or go in a cab to conduct business in downtown or the university.

2 points:

1. They DON'T serve different markets. They never have. They serve the same market - travellers to and from Edmonton. This bullshit delineation between the casual traveller and the international one is just that, bullshit. Multiple fields are viable when the economic demand is there. In Edmonton, it most certainly is not. Please don't bring that garbage "Chiacgo has one" or even Toronto Island, those markets don't even begin to compare to ours, their skies are way more crowded, passenger stats well far and beyond ours (Midway does more business than Alberta), and they have a bigger draw due to their economic and historic importance to their nations. Edmonton’s airport history clearly demonstrates that Dash 8’s at YXD severely impact YEG. Compound this with only one national full service airline and their demonstrated desire to continue with the mini-hub in Calgary, and your argument of different markets dies on the vine. Even when we had multiple airlines, those that served YXD only did so to transfer folks at YYC. I’m just too old and lived this reality just too long for anyone to even begin to convince me that the markets are “separate”.

2. The nLRT is not designed for, nor will it, serve YXD passengers. In fact, even in the LRT plans of 1968-73, there is nary a mention of an airport extension, but actual mentions of why NOT an airport extension, and plans to have LRT to YEG in the future. Plus, if I get the LRT out to the international, why in the sweet name of whatever you think is holy would I ever want to re-open the muni? Plus, the nLRT is nowhere near the YXD terminal, and it never ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever was in any LRT plan.

yes, I'm grumpy, but in 40+ years, this debate has never changed....ever. The multiple market argument is as much bullshit in 1960 as it is in 2007.

[MalcolmTucker]

Are you trying to tell us what's best for Edmonton or what's best for you?

Well, if the city isn't going to force the muni to stop operations it should let the airport take advantage of the infrastructure it is building to serve it.

Instantly Edmonton would have an airport served by a world class LRT system, providing seamless transportation to the CBD, University, and stadiums. I am just saying the city shouldn't ignore the possibilities.

Also what is good for tourists and business travelers is good for business. For no dollar cost the city could improve the business climate.

The city shouldn't wait until 2052 to decide what to do with their airport. If the city needs another general aviation field for corporate and medivac flights it should start looking at securing rights to use Namao as a general aviation base. (Many airports are shared with military aviation, Winnipeg, Pittsburgh and Frankfurt for example) Namao is also closer than YEG practically bordering the Henday when it is done.

[MalcolmTucker]

Ok, I know from experience that the bus service to DT Vancouver is in no way faster than a cab from YEG to TELUS Plaza., nor is it anywhere near as convenient. No......freaking.....way....in....hell. My WORST time is 31 mins, but I average 25. The only time that argument will ever hold water is when the Canada line is done.

You want a bus to YEG, ask Leduc County.

2 points:

1. They DON'T serve different markets. They never have. They serve the same market - travellers to and from Edmonton. This bullshit delineation between the casual traveller and the international one is just that, bullshit. Multiple fields are viable when the economic demand is there. In Edmonton, it most certainly is not. Please don't bring that garbage "Chiacgo has one" or even Toronto Island, those markets don't even begin to compare to ours, their skies are way more crowded, passenger stats well far and beyond ours (Midway does more business than Alberta), and they have a bigger draw due to their economic and historic importance to their nations. Edmonton’s airport history clearly demonstrates that Dash 8’s at YXD severely impact YEG. Compound this with only one national full service airline and their demonstrated desire to continue with the mini-hub in Calgary, and your argument of different markets dies on the vine. Even when we had multiple airlines, those that served YXD only did so to transfer folks at YYC. I’m just too old and lived this reality just too long for anyone to even begin to convince me that the markets are “separate”.

2. The nLRT is not designed for, nor will it, serve YXD passengers. In fact, even in the LRT plans of 1968-73, there is nary a mention of an airport extension, but actual mentions of why NOT an airport extension, and plans to have LRT to YEG in the future. Plus, if I get the LRT out to the international, why in the sweet name of whatever you think is holy would I ever want to re-open the muni? Plus, the nLRT is nowhere near the YXD terminal, and it never ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever was in any LRT plan.

yes, I'm grumpy, but in 40+ years, this debate has never changed....ever. The multiple market argument is as much bullshit in 1960 as it is in 2007.

LRT to YEG, now thats a pipe dream - even at $50 million a kilometer thats still a ridiculous expense.

YEG suffered just like everything in Alberta did when we went into a recession and then the government gutted the civil service. Correlation is not causation.

10 Dash 8 flights a day will not destroy year over year growth of a million passengers. If it does, high speed rail will do the same. Porter in Toronto only has four planes. Would four Dash 8s flying out of the muni kill the international? Give me a break!

High Speed Rail which by all indications it looks like Stelmach will run his election campaign on will have the same negative effects on a traffic basis. Preliminary plans do not have a stop at YEG but do have one at YYC. Think about what that will do.

My oh my, your experience coming in on Calgary Trail must have hit the most fortuitous times. I haven't experienced trips that rapid since the new ikea opened at Whitemud, thats not even talking about South Edmonton Common.

Now this is an interesting question, if the city closes the muni before 2052 ie breaking its lease, who can sue them and for how much?

[brento79]

This is an age old debate, that will not go away. Personally I know YEG is not the most ideal location...but really not to bad. What sucks about Edmonton is the ability to get from North to south, or Downtown to YEG, there is not good way.

Should the muni be opened for any scheduled flights? No. The demand is there for it, but not same demand that yells for more non stop service from Edmonton. If the Muni had flights to YYC, you would have people like myself using the flight scheduled there instead at YEG, and then flying to another desitination just due to the ease of getting to the city centre in Edmonton.

So...again. YEG doesn't not have good access to Downtown, but it is the best thing for downtown at the moment.

[rapid_business]

10 Dash 8 flights a day will not destroy year over year growth of a million passengers. If it does, high speed rail will do the same. So with your argument, how could 10 Dash 8 flights a day support an LRT line stop (which is a large part of your argument)? It couldn't. An LRT stop could only happen if YEG shut down, and the Muni became the main airport. There is no traffic creation otherwise.


...Unless, you rip up the runways, and redevelop the muni....

[Coldrsx]

"
The city shouldn't wait until 2052 to decide what to do with their airport. If the city needs another general aviation field for corporate and medivac flights it should start looking at securing rights to use Namao as a general aviation base. (Many airports are shared with military aviation, Winnipeg, Pittsburgh and Frankfurt for example) Namao is also closer than YEG practically bordering the Henday when it is done."


Namao is a Garrison now, not an airfield. Whats left of the runways are barely usable for driving on (SOLO 2) yet alone flying. Not to mention security issues given our foreign policy now.

[LO 044]

Well, if the city isn't going to force the muni to stop operations it should let the airport take advantage of the infrastructure it is building to serve it.

Instantly Edmonton would have an airport served by a world class LRT system, providing seamless transportation to the CBD, University, and stadiums. I am just saying the city shouldn't ignore the possibilities.

Also what is good for tourists and business travelers is good for business. For no dollar cost the city could improve the business climate.

The city shouldn't wait until 2052 to decide what to do with their airport. If the city needs another general aviation field for corporate and medivac flights it should start looking at securing rights to use Namao as a general aviation base. (Many airports are shared with military aviation, Winnipeg, Pittsburgh and Frankfurt for example) Namao is also closer than YEG practically bordering the Henday when it is done.

First, as far as i know, Namao is now a heliport and the runway(s) was demolished quite a while back. You might as well throw Villeneuve airport into your arguement. BTW, the military is leaving Frankfurt. That area will be the site of FRA's new terminal expansion.

Second, is it better for tourists and businessman to fly to YEG and take a 30 minute cab-ride to downtown? Or fly to YYC/YVR, endure a 40-90 minute layover, fly to YXD, then take a 10 minute LRT ride to downtown. Businessman to/from Calgary/Vancouver are the ONLY ones that benefit. Do i need to say how many people don't benefit from this setup?

Third, your arguement about 4 Dash-8's is absurd. The 4 Dash-8's would turn into 15 Dash-8's and they would turn into Boeing 737's like in the old days. We would be a complete feeder service to YVR, YYC and maybe even YWG. And again you are comparing Edmonton with Toronto when looking at Porter airlines. How big is Toronto? How big is their metro area? How big of an airport is Pearson? How many connecting flights does it serve as THE Air Canada hub? Like others have mentioned in so many ways, you're comparing apples to oranges and how you fail to see that is beyond me.

Fourth, your question about suing if the Muni closes down. I'm not a lawyer but here's a thought. Close one of the two runways. Then shorten the other runway so nothing larger than a 15 seater turboprop can land, if that. It's still an airport right? That will kill the debate once and for all. That land, though, is prime land and it could probably be sold and 10% of the money would take care of any lawsuit.

[MalcolmTucker]

So with your argument, how could 10 Dash 8 flights a day support an LRT line stop (which is a large part of your argument)? It couldn't. An LRT stop could only happen if YEG shut down, and the Muni became the main airport. There is no traffic creation otherwise.


...Unless, you rip up the runways, and redevelop the muni....

The LRT stop is being built in close proximity at Nait, I never said anything about an additional stop built solely for the Muni.

[MalcolmTucker]

If the Muni had flights to YYC, you would have people like myself using the flight scheduled there instead at YEG, and then flying to another desitination just due to the ease of getting to the city centre in Edmonton.


So, the HSR coming down the pipe will do the same thing, if not more so.

If flights from the muni are enough to hamper YEG then HSR will be its death kneel. Or at least thats what I am hearing.

[brento79]

When do the WestJet flights to Mexico start? Have they already?

[Coldrsx]

HSR should not happen for 20 yrs...assemble the land, fine, but alberta is absolutely ignoring the viability of this and a "private venture" i can see becoming a public catastrophe quickly.

[MalcolmTucker]

HSR should not happen for 20 yrs...assemble the land, fine, but alberta is absolutely ignoring the viability of this and a "private venture" i can see becoming a public catastrophe quickly.

No one every said Stelmach was smart. But remember he was transportation minister and is at ease talking about transportation subjects.

His government has commissioned multiple studies that support going forward on this, and they have bought the land.

It may be stupid, but its good politics. Makes him look visionary and all that.

So I guess the question becomes, what does YEG do to weather the HSR storm? Will growth until HSR opens keep YEG at a 5 million plus?

Or will the ability to check in baggage in downtown Edmonton and a suburban station (either on the whitemud or the Henday) and get off at YYC just gut the airport?

[YYCguys]

When do the WestJet flights to Mexico start? Have they already?

I think they start up in a week or two.

[CanadianCentaur]

So, the HSR coming down the pipe will do the same thing, if not more so.

If flights from the muni are enough to hamper YEG then HSR will be its death kneel. Or at least thats what I am hearing.

Unlikely. Very unlikely.

[Coldrsx]

Or will the ability to check in baggage in downtown Edmonton and a suburban station (either on the whitemud or the Henday) and get off at YYC just gut the airport?

if you think that an HSR will make YYC become Alberta International you need to get your head out of the snow bank and recognize that HSR will not do anything more than make intercity travel less dependent on QEII, red arrow, AC, and greyhound.

[MalcolmTucker]

if you think that an HSR will make YYC become Alberta International you need to get your head out of the snow bank and recognize that HSR will not do anything more than make intercity travel less dependent on QEII, red arrow, AC, and greyhound.

If HSR does not pose a threat, why does Dash 8 service to the muni?

[CanadianCentaur]

If HSR does not pose a threat, why does Dash 8 service to the muni?

That is pointless. There is a restriction on the number of seats per scheduled flight into YXD, and I believe it's 19 seats. A Dash 8-100 has 37.

[Coldrsx]

If HSR does not pose a threat, why does Dash 8 service to the muni?

2 airports in a city of 1million is not efficient or pragmatic.

[MalcolmTucker]

2 airports in a city of 1million is not efficient or pragmatic.

Which didn't really answer the question at all...

[MalcolmTucker]

That is pointless. There is a restriction on the number of seats per scheduled flight into YXD, and I believe it's 19 seats. A Dash 8-100 has 37.

That restriction is just a bylaw. Mandel has come out and said he opposes HSR, mainly on cost issues. He could really destroy arguments for it by restoring Dash service to the airport.

[Coldrsx]

Which didn't really answer the question at all...

indirectly it does...EDMONTON DOES NOT NEED TWO AIRPORTS

[MalcolmTucker]

indirectly it does...EDMONTON DOES NOT NEED TWO AIRPORTS

Evidently the people thought otherwise. Ahh democracy, sometimes its the shit eh?

[Coldrsx]

Evidently the people thought otherwise. Ahh democracy, sometimes its the shit eh?

dude...do some homework. EDMONTON VOTED TO CLOSE THE MUNICIPAL AIRPORT IN A REFERENDUM and consolidate to the International.

[CanadianCentaur]

indirectly it does...EDMONTON DOES NOT NEED TWO AIRPORTS

AMEN

[LO 044]

Did anyone even notice Kyle is from Calgary? Who knows, he might even be Ron Hayter's nephew.

[MalcolmTucker]

dude...do some homework. EDMONTON VOTED TO CLOSE THE MUNICIPAL AIRPORT IN A REFERENDUM and consolidate to the International.

Yeah, close the Muni in 2052. Plebiscites aren't binding and all it asked for was concurrence on a Bylaw. Bylaws can be changed, and are all the time for political reasons.

If a politician stood up and said the muni must stay open to general aviation until 2052 because the people said so, would you accept that?

I don't think so.

[S_B_Russell]

Edmontonians voted to close the Muni? When did this happen? -Sarcasm mode off -

[IKAN104]

For the sake of completeness during this debate - I believe this was the exact question posed in 1995:

Edmonton Municipal Airport
Do you direct City Council to repeal “The Edmonton Municipal Airport referendum bylaw” (No. 10,205)? That bylaw requires the City to operate the Municipal Airport and promote that airport’s air passenger service.

A “YES” vote means that the City will promote MOVING scheduled air passenger service to the Edmonton International Airport.

A “NO” vote means that the City will promote MAINTAINING scheduled air passenger service at the Edmonton Municipal Airport.

Under both options the City will continue to own and offer general air services (e.g. private planes, small charters, air ambulance) at the Municipal Airport.

Yes
166,404 votes
76.80%

No
50,253 votes
23.19%

[Jasper and one o nin]

^thank you Ikan. I say we dig up the muni and then flood it - so we can land float planes. Then point to point service to Vancouver Harbour.
I can't believe people are posting comments in favour of an airport that limits downtown development in a SKYSCRAPER FORUM!

[Edmonchuck]

Wasn't it 77% of Edmontonians voting in favour?

[MalcolmTucker]

^^:previous:

Given the amount of time between large projects in Edmonton I don't think the muni is the primary reason we don't see more development in downtown Edmonton.

[Edmonchuck]

LRT to YEG, now thats a pipe dream - even at $50 million a kilometer thats still a ridiculous expense.

(...)
High Speed Rail which by all indications it looks like Stelmach will run his election campaign on will have the same negative effects on a traffic basis. Preliminary plans do not have a stop at YEG but do have one at YYC. Think about what that will do.

My oh my, your experience coming in on Calgary Trail must have hit the most fortuitous times. I haven't experienced trips that rapid since the new ikea opened at Whitemud, thats not even talking about South Edmonton Common.

Now this is an interesting question, if the city closes the muni before 2052 ie breaking its lease, who can sue them and for how much?

Actually....the ROW for LRT is there, and on raw land, your $50 mill per kilometer is exaggerated. Plus, don't scoff at LRT to our airport. There is an event in the works that will give us JUST THAT...

I travel to YEG weekly from Telus Plaza. I guess I am just fortunate, 104 times a year. Now for 6/49.

As for who can sue, NO ONE. If the city decided to bury YXD, the only people that COULD be angry is the ERAA, and trust me, they won't be. :banana:

[Edmonchuck]

^^:previous:

Given the amount of time between large projects in Edmonton I don't think the muni is the primary reason we don't see more development in downtown Edmonton.


ACTUALLY....

I know personally of one project that may have been skinnier and taller sans APO....

[MalcolmTucker]

Wasn't it 77% of Edmontonians voting in favour?

There was another vote in 1992, but still not 77%

Are you in favour of bylaw No. 10,205 The Edmonton Municipal Airport Referendum bylaw?
Yes - 115773 ~56%
No - 90566 ~44%


This bylaw was then repealed in the 1995 vote. People can be finicky no?

Edit: The Edmonton Airports site uses the number 77% [Link] (http://corporate.edmontonairports.com/general_aviation/edmonton_city_centre/history)

[MalcolmTucker]

ACTUALLY....

I know personally of one project that may have been skinnier and taller sans APO....

Well, I guess we all know what that project is - unless it was a pre-1992 building.

[MalcolmTucker]

As for who can sue, NO ONE. If the city decided to bury YXD, the only people that COULD be angry is the ERAA, and trust me, they won't be. :banana:

So the ERAA will pick up the costs to relocate all the businesses that have hangers and aviation related businesses to YEG?

Those businesses have had reasonable assurances that the airport would stay open for some time.

[Edmonchuck]

If HSR does not pose a threat, why does Dash 8 service to the muni?

OK, let me answer this kyle, and trust me, I can kill each and every one of your arguments all day, so keep bringing 'em.

The reason why you won't see a Dash 8 is just like PWA's 737, they were full of connecting passengers more than direct Calgary passengers. I lived that era firsthand. So, your 10 flights will not be viable at all w/o connections, and then once you open that can of worms, well, welcome to 1979. So, listen carefully. IT….WON’T….BE….ALLOWED.

HSR has the potential to be an issue for YEG if, and only if, there is a stop at YYC and NOT one at YEG. Then, if there is no open skies, Air Canada's investment in the Calgary Mini hub will just allow them to utilize the HSR connection to take some of the equipment they need to service Edmonton and place it on other routes. The only way HSR makes any economic sense is to take YEG traffic, otherwise the numbers are totally in the white elephant category.

Mandel is NOT in favour of re-opening YXD. That is not going to happen. And as for your "democracy is a bitch" comment, I'll make you a deal. Let's use it. Let's get the 1992 question on the ballot. Close it or keep it open. I guarantee you, the result will be to close it. Edmonton has grown significantly in population since then, and many of those don't even know what a Muni is. Add to it the gaggle of people who love our new flights and newfound prosperity, and the Muni is so dead. So, I'll bet it is in favour. The last vote on the same question was hair thin. Simple question, if there was such momentum for re-opening, why hasn’t the question been posed?

Again, the nLRT you so espouse will need a TERMINAL if it was to service any YXD passengers. All FBO's and the old terminal are on the other side.

This argument is dead. Like I said before, if you think you have a case, let's go for it. 2010 is not that far off, and to get the signatures you'll need to put this on the ballot, you'd better start now. I even challenge Tony to get this running. Koziak, let's go. Anyone???????? Give me any excuse to mount up the Calvary and finally shoot this freaking bullshit debate with a silver bullet.

Can I suggest one thing before you do though? Stop by the Alberta Aviation Museum and read up on the entire debate. You’re gonna need it.

[rapid_business]

The LRT stop is being built in close proximity at Nait, I never said anything about an additional stop built solely for the Muni.

Which is on the opposite side of the airfield. Should they build a tunnel underneath it all?

It can't/won't happen.

[Edmonchuck]

So the ERAA will pick up the costs to relocate all the businesses that have hangers and aviation related businesses to YEG?

Those businesses have had reasonable assurances that the airport would stay open for some time.


And I could have reasonable assurances that things will stay the same, but they don't. I hardly beleive that all businesses have 50+ year leases. Once the current rent is up for renewal, oops, no facility.

It would be the same as a rental unit. And if they terminated prior to the lease, I am sure there are clauses in place. No renter, airport or not, will sign a lease that doesn't have these terms and conditions in place.

[MalcolmTucker]

So, if you guys hate the muni so much why don't you launch an attempt to close it. Or just get a couple city councillors on side, you can problably get both proponents of closure and reinvigoration on side if the question is the 1992 question.

My only argument for the muni is that if you have the infrastructure already in place, you should use it, instead of spending money to solve the problems people have identified with YEG.

Also, it seems Canada is a couple stops behind on the open skies train, so keep on hoping.

[ibz]

Sounds like dinoman is back

[tuffyy]

Hey guys the private jet of all private jets will be in town again on thursday night...VP-CCC private A340-600VIP arrives at 0230 and departs at 1100 on Saturday.And she is a beauty...This will be the third time in a few months its been to YEG.

http://farm1.static.flickr.com/147/336719469_580a5bd3c8_o.jpg

Photo cortesy of Flickr.

[SHOFEAR]

who's jet is that?

[brento79]

Love that plane. What is going on with Saudi Arabia and Alberta? That is where that plane is from correct?

[tuffyy]

Belongs to national air service of Saudi Arabia.They fly to YEG then fly another smaller charter to YMM.They also brought a gulfstream 5 back in August for the trip.

[brento79]

Any idea what they are doing?

[tuffyy]

No idea, I have wanted to ask a few times but never have.Although I plan to bring my camera this time to take pics of the interior as the crew offered last time.It has 4 sleeping ''rooms'' a dinning room,office,meeting room,Shower,general area, and you guessed it... Gold taps,etc...Must be nice.

[SHOFEAR]

Gold taps,etc...

velvet blue carpet, gold curtain rods, white statues

god I love Southpark.

[brento79]

Yes, take pictures. Post them here or on airliners.net

I am slightly jealous.

[IKAN104]

Wasn't it 77% of Edmontonians voting in favour?

Yes, you're right. I've edited the numbers in my post. The vote counts were correct but for some reason the percentages were wrong. It now reads:

Yes
166,404 votes
76.80%

No
50,253 votes
23.19%

[tuffyy]

I really dont understand, Integra air who has upgraded to a ''slightly'' larger aircraft has seen loads increase.Its YQL-YEG and YQL-YEG-YMM routes are doing very well.The company has plainly said it now has both buisness and connecting traffic via YEG.But then again we must all be kool-aid drinkers according to some...Is it really the passengers who arent happy or the pilots who just want to go to Ezzies for the night???:cheers: :koko:

[Edmonchuck]

So, if you guys hate the muni so much why don't you launch an attempt to close it. Or just get a couple city councillors on side, you can problably get both proponents of closure and reinvigoration on side if the question is the 1992 question.

My only argument for the muni is that if you have the infrastructure already in place, you should use it, instead of spending money to solve the problems people have identified with YEG.

Also, it seems Canada is a couple stops behind on the open skies train, so keep on hoping.


Simple.

We don't need to do anything. We don't. It will be redeveloped when the time is right.

And if that is your ONLY argument, then it is fundamentally flawed. We have to spend the money on YEG anyway.

Open Skies, the market will accelerate that. AC is actually coming on side.

[CanadianCentaur]

[edited self - I wasn't in a very nice mood at the time, many apologies]

[Coldrsx]

a few people on SSP/C2E reminded the journal to report on it and voila:

Edmonton Airports tops 6 million passengers
edmontonjournal.com
Published: 10:43 am

EDMONTON - Edmonton Airports is expected to eclipse its all-time record for passengers by year's end, with a forecast of more than 6 million travellers arriving and departing through the YEG gates.

The growth in passenger traffic has been explosive since 2004, mirroring Alberta's hot resource economy: 5.2 million in 2006; 4.5 million in 2005 and 4.1 million in 2004.

"That's a 50 per cent increase in passenger volumes in just three years,'' said Edmonton Airports spokesman Jim Rudolph. "There are few airports in the world that can talk about that kind of major growth."
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Aside from perhaps a few airports in China perhaps, such increases in passenger volumes is unprecedented, Rudolph said.

On a rolling 12-month basis, Edmonton has already passed the 6-million mark since last December. For this calendar year, the number is forecast to hit 6.1 million, Rudolph said.

The busiest day of the year has yet to come. Friday, Dec. 21 is expected to have the heaviest passenger volumes, starting at 6 a.m.

Traditionally, the Friday before Christmas, which is Tuesday this year, is the busiest day of the year.

Edmonton Airports expects heavy passenger volumes from Dec. 17 through January 7.

Other highlights:

Passenger loads of 485,466 in November 2007 compares to 419,781 for November 2006;

Year-to-date passenger growth tops 17.1 per cent;

International passenger growth more than doubled, at 101.8 per cent in 2007;

Domestic year-to-date passenger growth for domestic flights increased 14.2 per cent.


© Edmonton Journal 2007

[LO 044]

Well done to the people that reminded the Journal on the good news at YEG. And well done to the Edmonton Journal as well for actually printing the story. I'm sure the Edmonton Sun would have printed a story right away as well but there was a wet t-shirt / bikini contest somewhere around town lol. Perhaps Jim Rudolph needs a pretty lady next to him when doing an interview with the Sun. I'm sure he wouldn't mind lol.

[rapid_business]

The busiest day of the year has yet to come. Friday, Dec. 21 is expected to have the heaviest passenger volumes, starting at 6 a.m.

Traditionally, the Friday before Christmas, which is Tuesday this year, is the busiest day of the year.


Yup. That's when the wife and I are flying in for the holiday season. I wonder what the count will be that day? 6am to 6am the next for example.

[Coldrsx]

^reminder to let us know when you are in town for a xmas pint

[JAH]

Well given that the Edm Sun under reported Epcor Tower's height by 40%, maybe its good they didn't report this story.. Edmonton Sun Headline:


Edmonton Airports tops 3.6 million!

[rapid_business]

^reminder to let us know when you are in town for a xmas pint

Dec.21-Jan.3 - pick a day after the 26th and I'll make it work.

[Edmonchuck]

Perhaps Jim Rudolph needs a pretty lady next to him when doing an interview with the Sun. I'm sure he wouldn't mind lol.

*ahem TRACI ahem*

[LO 044]

*ahem TRACI ahem*
I'd be lying if i said that didn't go through my mind lol.

[Edmonchuck]

Snicker...now to sell her on the idea... :)...after all, it IS for the betterment of the airport's image. Just think of all the press...

[Coldrsx]

Jim R mentioned that YEG believes they are still losing ~1,000,000 in PAX to "other airports" including "one to the south"...

we really need to push to make that number move into YEG. Imagine even 1/2 of that coming back along with 5-10% growth numbers.

interesting to note that ERAA expects YEG to be at 9 million in 4 yrs.

[Edmonchuck]

Yeah, I wonder just how much of that million mark is YYC? I also wonder what other sirports make that up? VR? YZ? That would be my guess.

[Coldrsx]

^i would guess 75% is YYC

[brento79]

Well AMS on Martinair has been dropped to YYC and YEG.

[Edmonchuck]

Any rationale?

[Jasper and one o nin]

we gotta get a fu(king houston route soon.

[brento79]

how is the houston route related in anyway to the AMS route? .

[Jasper and one o nin]

^Not at all.

[LO 044]

Well AMS on Martinair has been dropped to YYC and YEG.
AC is laughing all the way to the bank. They have one competitor left, Air Transat.

[CanadianCentaur]

Just got off a WestJet flight to Grande Prairie, and things were fairly busy at YEG, but not that crowded. The parkade and some tarmac expansion to the south (I think) are well underway, as some of you may already know.

GP's airport was just so insanely crowded that I almost couldn't get through with my suitcase in tow. While it hasn't changed too much from the outside, with the new glass-covered Arrivals entrance the only really noticeable change, it's been renoed completely on the inside, with a new restaurant on the upper floor.

[CanadianCentaur]

If Canada-EU Open Skies became reality, is it possible that Martinair would return?

[EdmTrekker]

Well AMS on Martinair has been dropped to YYC and YEG.

I am pissed about this. What IS interesting is that they have revamped their website - allowing for on-line purchasing on a scheduled carrier basis for YYZ and YVR. Makes you wonder now that Matinair is wholly owned by KLM as to what is happening.

http://www.martinair.com/ca_en/flightschedule/index.aspx

[brento79]

Maybe if the open skies happen we'll see them or KLM enter the market. But they really wanted to have scheduled service here. With Air Canada offering more flexible offerings to the tourist I can see why they may have pulled out.

[Edmonchuck]

I think your right brento79...

[LO 044]

Maybe if the open skies happen we'll see them or KLM enter the market. But they really wanted to have scheduled service here. With Air Canada offering more flexible offerings to the tourist I can see why they may have pulled out.

Here's a posting on airliners.net. Don't know how reliable it is but here it is nonetheless:

Yes, edmonton and Calgary are dropped.

Martinair is reducing their long-haul network in order to focus on offering more frequencies to the more important markets.

They are dropping Calgary, edmonton, Montego Bay, Orlando, and Tobago.

Vancouver and Toronto are increasing, so they will offer a daily flight to Canada.

Miami is increasing to 8x weekly, with two daily flights on Friday, taking the capacity lost from Orlando.

They will also continue scheduled service as is to AUA, CUR, HAV, and PBM. Service to SJO will continue to be daily, but given the ending of the Orlando route, all flights will be routed via Miami (currently it is 3x MCO/4x MIA).

[brento79]

Let's see if we have a EU agreement by June, we could see a AMS or FRA route by October.

[LO 044]

Maybe FRA (or even WAW) is beginning to look better than AMS. At least FRA or WAW would have Star Alliance connections. Of course that doesn't say much for competition into YEG.

[brento79]

Yes a Star Alliance connection would be awesome, but if West Jet really does go through with partnerships AMS might be our "shining star"

[CanadianCentaur]

How good is AMS for connecting flights to the rest of Europe and the Middle East compared to FRA?

[lubicon]

How good is AMS for connecting flights to the rest of Europe and the Middle East compared to FRA?

LH hubs out of FRA, KLM hubs out of AMS. Both are very good for connections to pretty much everywhere.

[brento79]

AMS is the Fourth largest after LHR, FRA, CDG

[Canadian74]

I thought YEG can get FRA service tomorrow if AC/LH wanted. There are no restrictions. How would an open-skies agreement with EU help?
I am pretty sure even if an agreement is negotiated, YEG will not get KLM.

[MalcolmTucker]

I thought YEG can get FRA service tomorrow if AC/LH wanted. There are no restrictions. How would an open-skies agreement with EU help?
I am pretty sure even if an agreement is negotiated, YEG will not get KLM.

Yeah, in 1990 the Germans sent a note to Canada for

March 30, 1990

Diplomatic Note (Germany designates Lufthansa AG on the route Frankfurt/Edmonton)

The request wasn't rejected.

As for AMS with KLM, they cannot land in Edmonton due to the bilateral. AC can fly to AMS from YEG however.

All the bilaterals are here (http://www.cta-otc.gc.ca/air-aerien/agreements/main_e.html#2)