[ZiZiPop]

^ hense YEG needs to look past Air Canada and West Jet.

[Edmonchuck]

Ahheeemmmm...

As a member of the cool-aid drinkers at the EAA,

Damn, where do I get some???

[dansk]

So for travel in Canada where is YEG going to look besides AC or WS? That makes no sense. Travel to the US sure, but even you and the ERAA admit that there isn't much more that they are dreaming for besides IAH and more service to places like LAX. Plus right now most of you prime morning slots are taken up.

What service does need right now besides IAH?

[tuffyy]

Facts;

AC has a mini hub type system in YYC, so YYC will see growth long before YEG does by AC and most star alliance partners.

AC good to YEG? As good as they can be in the current set-up.

Look past AC? sometimes you have to...

But honestly we cannot complain...

And we shouldnt.

[S_B_Russell]

Airport sale ahead?
City Centre Airport worth $80M to $250M:
report By FRANK LANDRY, CITY HALL BUREAU

Selling the City Centre Airport is on at least one city councillor’s radar.
“I would certainly be willing to look at that, and look at how we can benefit ... the Edmonton taxpayers,” said Coun. Kim Krushell, whose Ward 2 includes the airport.

But Krushell acknowledged she hasn’t researched the matter enough to know if it’s worth pursuing.

The comments came today after a new report found the airport land could be worth $80 million to $215 million if sold to developers.

But the city document, prepared in response to a motion by Coun. Tony Caterina, stresses that’s only an estimate and doesn’t include the potential cost for environmental remediation.

Caterina has been pushing to re-open debate on the future of the airfield. He’d like to see more flights take off from the gateway.




“I don’t want this to sit for another 12, 13, 14 years,” Caterina said.

He cautioned developing the land would take years, while allowing planes with up to 19 passengers to use the airfield could be done almost immediately.

There is some scheduled air service to a handful of northern communities, but the planes cannot carry more than 10 passengers. Many airlines have little interest in such small flights.

The bulk of scheduled service was consolidated at the international airport in the mid-1990s, following a referendum on the matter.

The airport sits on 536 acres near the heart of the city. It’s leased to the Edmonton Regional Airports Authority for $1 until 2052.

Krushell said she’s not sure if that lease agreement can be broken.

“At this point, it’s a debate one councillor has brought forward,” she said. “As far as the rest of council, we haven’t discussed this at all.”

The report is expected to be considered next week by city council.

frank.landry@sunmedia.c

[KrisYYC]

^ hense YEG needs to look past Air Canada and West Jet.

And who else is going to be able to make any sort of significant increase to YEG's numbers? Alienating AC and Westjet (Canada's two largest carriers) would be absolutely retarded.

[Edmonchuck]

No one is saying that they should be ignored.

[dansk]

Reading through this thread I see alot of statments and one starts to notice really quickly that there is a lot of misinformation. Making statement such as overlooking Air Canada and WestJet show how little people know about the Canadian air industry.

I am not trying to create an arguement and nor do I believe KrisYYC either. I just find it interesting that folk at use YEG are complaining about an announcement like today. I for one believe in YEG and hope it much success. However it will not become a major focus city. Any connections it is seeing right now is just via default not full design by the airlines. To make statements in the annual report stating that Saskatoon is one of the cities using YEG is as hub city is great marketing; however when you look at the reality of the 1 flight by Air Jazz and 2 by WS you start to realise that is all it is.

This year YOW is going to see more focus by Air Canada as it needs investment. Then the hubs will see the other increases. Are there things in the pipe for YEG...yes. This industry is not as much as a poker game as some of you may think.

Anyways, all this to say. 2008 will be a good year for YEG. But I and many others are predicting that it will be another adjustment year for the authority. Be thankful that AC and WJ treat Edmonton so well, they especially AC have invested a tonne in your city considering the market. WestJet was more of a default.

[Rocket252]

^ so what is "coming down the pipe" for YEG?

[ZiZiPop]

And who else is going to be able to make any sort of significant increase to YEG's numbers? Alienating AC and Westjet (Canada's two largest carriers) would be absolutely retarded.

YEG has a desire to grow like any airport would. If the service from AC and Westjet isn't going to increase then they need to look at other options. Just like any business would try and find new revenue sources. Are there other options out there? I know nothing about the industry, but I'm sure there are. If any of these options would "Alienate" AC or Westjet then YEG wouldn't entertain them. It would be suicide.

For all I know this pending anouncement has nothing to do with PAX. All the speculation has been about the numbers because that seems to be how Airports are measured.

[Riise]

For once as a EAA person I will remain silent...

but its GOOD very GOOD...

Edmonton will be very happy...


Lets just say YYC will be very shocked and the whole ''spoke'' thing will just be a laugh...

Finally we get the cake...:tup:

And its not IB...:notacrook:

Sorry to bring this old post up again but I haven’t been posting lately and I’d like to address something in it. In my Transportation Studies course that I took during the Fall semester I was able to review both the Hub & Spoke and Point-to-Point models of the Airline industry.* Not to single anyone out, but in the quoted post Tuffyy talks as if the Hub & Spoke model will be dismissed as our region moves to a Point-to-Point model; a switch from one to the other. However, after learning about these two model as well as transportation theory and trends I don’t think it’s correct to look at is as “either or”. Why? After looking at the emergence of Point-to-Point travel and the reasons behind it I have come to believe that the Point-to-Point model is not a model that has been conceived to open up the world for travellers but is rather a model for Airlines to tap into guaranteed and high potential money making markets.

The goal of private airlines is to maximize, with reason, profits and secure long-term stability. The Point-to-Point model has allowed them to increase their profits by servicing markets that were potentially quite profitable but underserved, or emerging yet stable and showed high potential. Due to their relatively small size I don’t think Calgary or Edmonton is capable of necessitating Point-to-Point service or justifying it individually. Unfortunately for Edmonton, only once pooled together can we get Point-to-Point service and Calgary was chosen as the pooling point. Now I’m aware that YEG can support a certain amount of Point-to-Point service, however, it’s not at the point where airlines can justify operating it. Yes they can make some money but not enough to justify the administration costs and man hours spent making and facilitating the changes. They only want to do this when they can really rake in the money or lead up to it. Now I did say that airlines want to maximize profits but they are on a different scale and aren’t nickel and dimen’ it.

While I don’t think YYC or YEG will be able to justify all out Point-to-Point service, I think the need is growing and the region is best served, in the eyes of the airlines at least, by a hybrid model. As the established hub YYC will continue, usually, to get brand new destinations but YEG will also get its own destinations and continue to cut lines in their spoke. However, I think this is a long process. Personally I don’t see either airports being able to necessitate Point-to-Point service individually until they hit the 2.5-3 million mark. Although it will be a long process there are things you can do to contribute.

Flying Edmonton First is good as long as you have direct flights but I’ll argue that it doesn’t work if you don’t have a direct flight. For instance, if you want to travel to Rome and AC or another StarAlliance member routes you through YYZ go through YYZ. Why? Cause it shows AC and their partners that people are travelling from YEG to Rome. By flying from Edmonton to London on AC then switching to a different airline all you are showing AC and their partners is that the Edmonton to London flight is popular, you aren’t showing them any reason to add an Edmonton/Rome flight but just more reason to increase the flights to London. If you don’t want to fly through YYC, which I find childish by the way as both cities are suppose to be working together, fine don’t! However, don’t hurt yourself either and instead fly through other AC hubs. It shows them the actual needs; they won’t know if you don’t tell them.

Anyway, an early congrats on your potential new flight. I know getting it goes against most of what I said above but things don’t always happen as they theoretically are suppose to or have in the past. Going on some of the hints my guess for the new destination would be somewhere in Asia or potentially Oceania. I’m surprised Calgary doesn’t have a charter to Oz yet… They’ve invaded Banff like the plague and I always bump into Aussies at the U. That’s an outside change though, if I was betting money I’d chose Asia. Seeing as it probably won’t be AC it would have to be an Asian carrier with the money to invest in a relatively risky new market, as such, it would have to be an East Asian carrier. Most probably Cathay, they were digging around here recently and talked about YYC which would piss us off if they went to YEG instead.


*Disclaimer: My post was the result of my personal analysis of theory and trends.

[craneSpotter]

^ well, well, not to be brash, but...

You didn't think you were schoolin', did you? Your 'Transportation Studies' course does not an airline executive make. The model you studied is out of date. It is more going towards a multi-point model. People, customers for airlines, want to be happy - the hub-only system does not make happy customers. Although the hub model is good (read cheaper) for some routes.

Therefore if an airline sees that enough people are going YEG-YYC-VAN, YEG-YYC-YXE , YEG-YYC-YWG or YEG-YYC-YYJ they will eventually go YEG-VAN, YEG-YXE-YWG and YEG-YLW-YYJ. YYC will loose some connecting PAX from YEG over time, but not really a big deal for them because they are growing faster than the loss. As a bonus, YEG picks up connecting PAX from from YYJ/YLW going east and YXE/YWG going west :)

Also, I think AC does like to know if when they fly people from Canada to London, London is their final destination. They are a business, and as one you need to know your customer - especially airlines. So, if they see their YEG-LHR is successful, they will find out if their passengers connect (via other airlines) to other destinations beyond, before say adding capacity or additional flights from YEG to LHR.

[KrisYYC]

You also have to consider the airline business model. Large international carriers like AC tend to be more "hub and spoke" because a good percentage of their passengers are international destined passengers connecting to/from major hubs . Where as airlines like Westjet will always be more "point to point" because most of their passengers are domestic only, or their final destination is relatively short-haul.

The larger international carriers like AC will always be more "Hub and spoke". It's simply not economical to have overseas flights from every medium sized city, even if the demand could fill the aircraft, there's also the question of ground resources needed (staff, equiptment etc) for such a flight at every medium airport. In the 70's and 80's it was economical, because a ticket from YEG-LHR back then was probably $3000 in 1970's dollars. Today it's just not economical. Whereas Joe Sixpack's flight on Westjet to visit his grandma in Saskatoon requires much less resources.

Am I making sense? LOL

[CanadianCentaur]

Am I making sense? LOL

Unfortunately, no.

[Riise]

^ well, well, not to be brash, but...

You didn't think you were schoolin', did you? Your 'Transportation Studies' course does not an airline executive make.

No, that's why I put in my disclaimer. I never claimed to be an expert but simply someone with some background knowledge and a personal opinion.

People, customers for airlines, want to be happy - the hub-only system does not make happy customers.

The goal of Airlines is not to make people happy though. Their goal, like I said, is to make a healthy profit. With Point-to-Point service Airlines started to serve markets that could ensure stable profits and were justifiably unhappy. It's great for severely undeserved markets and, as Kris pointed out, increased domestic flights, but not all markets and unhappy customers will and can benefit from it. What I'm trying to point out is that markets with large numbers of unhappy customers will be able to necessitate Point-to-Point service and YYC & YEG are, by themselves, not those types of markets. However, they are not suited to a solely Hub & Spoke model either. We're growing out of it and a more hybrid-like model is appropriate. With your "happy customer first" model there would be Point-to-Point service in Saskatoon, which is completely absurd! Just to clarify, which I should have done before, I'm talking about international flights only. I'm fully aware that both YYC and YEG can have a domestic Point-to-Point model.

[EdmTrekker]

By flying from Edmonton to London on AC then switching to a different airline all you are showing AC and their partners is that the Edmonton to London flight is popular, you aren’t showing them any reason to add an Edmonton/Rome flight but just more reason to increase the flights to London.

Give me a break - AC knows full well smart travellers (like me) connect at Heathrow using separate tickets to connect to airlines (Star Alliance airlines as well). It is AC that can respond by offering a YEG-FRA fight non-stop taking me to heart of Europe for faster rail connections. Mind you we can now connect from Heathrow on Eurostar by express or the city Piccadilly line. For you to suggest that I should pay more and be inconvenienced 6-8 hours to support going through YYC is self serving, shortsighted and well...stupid.

[Rocket252]

As was said earlier it is all about making a profit.

Air Canada's "Who cares if people are happy" model works quite well for them.

[Rocket252]

When you have a monopoly on international flights and codeshare with the remaining airlines who serve Canada it is pretty easy to thumb your nose at the public

[LO 044]

It is AC that can respond by offering a YEG-FRA fight non-stop taking me to heart of Europe for faster rail connections. Mind you we can now connect from Heathrow on Eurostar by express or the city Piccadilly line.
Yes but have you seen the prices for Eurostar trains? It's about $200 return to Paris return at minimum then getting somewhere from Paris's 8 or so train stations is another story. My EuroNight Sparepreis ticket from Frankfurt last summer cost me 29 Euros one-way.

Let's face it, as a connecting airport in Europe nothing beats Frankfurt. Even more sad is that LH's new YYC-FRA flight is timed even better (and something i was always looking for) arriving in FRA at 7:55. The possibility of connecting to another flight or train just gets better. This flight would have been perfect for YEG as it might even compete (in an advantageous way) with Air Canada's later departure/arrival time.

[KrisYYC]

As was said earlier it is all about making a profit.

Air Canada's "Who cares if people are happy" model works quite well for them.

Jesus christ man. YEG got it's own LHR flight and is doing well, but I guess they're ignoring you guys :rolleyes: . What do you expect? A new overseas flight every 6 months?

I'm an industry insider, and an AC insider for years. I've tried to explain to you guys about how the hub and spoke system works, why YEG doesn't have the same level of service as YYC (no it's NOT because AC is ignoring you). Yet you still don't listen.

I've never seen such a group of whiners in my life. It really makes you guys look bad. Even the Montrealers don't have such a sense of entitlement.

Unfortunately, no.

Now that I'm not half asleep: Basically, Westjet can do more point to point because the majority of their passengers are fairly short-haul domestic passengers. The bulk of AC's passengers are flying much more long-haul. So a connection at a hub is required. It's simply not economical to fly to Europe from every medium sized Canadian city.

[craneSpotter]

I'm an industry insider, and an AC insider for years. I've tried to explain to you guys about how the hub and spoke system works, why YEG doesn't have the same level of service as YYC (no it's NOT because AC is ignoring you). Yet you still don't listen.

You're not speaking internationally are you? Because YYC's international service is nothing to brag about - it isn't even considered an international AC hub :haha: Good for a medium sized Canadian city I guess. Service to LHR and FRA. wow.

It's simply not economical to fly to Europe from every medium sized Canadian city.

Thats why YYC will not become a International hub for Canada anytime soon. YYZ (Europe) and YVR (AsiaPacific) are the chosen ones. You know this. YYC will get point-point international if it is worthy. Same with YEG. Service overall from YYC is not that far ahead of YEG (domestic/trans-border) as YEG has improved dramatically over the past few years. Houston is up next so you won't have to connect through YYC every time when flying between YEG-IAH then likely LGA. Although I think YYC will always maintain a lead (more PAX) due to the concentration of offices there. YEG could easily grow to 75% of YYC PAX numbers and have similar service.

Domestically there will be more point-point connections from small Canadian cities such as YXE and YQR. For example YXE just got YOW and increased service to YYZ and soon YVR. This helps them by-pass YYC, which they have typically had to connect through, even flying east!!! some times. Adding to this is the emergence of YEG as a connecting airport (mini-hub). I would think it possible that YYC growth will plateau over the next 10 years. Unless of-course the city keeps adding 25000 a year :)

I think YEG will continue to piss off YYC as it grows, because if YEG grows YYC's own growth is slowed. It was always a goal of YYC to be a hub for Edmonton - and they liked it best when Edmonton had service from both airports - it was an easier fight.

[KrisYYC]

I'm not speaking internationally. However, YYC is a hub for AC. And a bit of an international hub in the sense that AC's biggest overseas destinations in terms of volume are LHR and FRA by far. YVR gets the Asian bound connecting pax, YYC gets more of the regions Europe bound connecting pax.

[CanadianCentaur]

After looking back in this thread, it looks like some of us are really going overboard about AC not giving YEG flights to some place in Europe and whatnot. Holy cow. Do I see people in Winnipeg bitching and moaning about having lost AC service to LHR way back in the 1980s? No. They suck it up and go through YYZ to get to Europe or take Zoom. Yes, I'll admit to having been one of those bitching more in the past about YEG's apparent lack of service, but I've learned a lot, even if I'm obviously no expert.

I definitely wouldn't be surprised if we're way better served in terms of international/transborder destinations than most other North American metropolitan areas similar in size to ours. And that's despite YEG being so close to a hub airport (YYC, of course) and that Calgary itself has attributes like being close to Rockies and being a corporate HQ city that Edmonton can't compete with.

One big thing you got to have is PATIENCE. As YEG and Edmonton grows further, we will at least get a few more international flights.

[240glt]

I think YEG will continue to piss off YYC as it grows, because if YEG grows YYC's own growth is slowed. It was always a goal of YYC to be a hub for Edmonton - and they liked it best when Edmonton had service from both airports - it was an easier fight.

Quoted for truth... and to keep the Calgarians foaming at the mounth :-)

[Bigtime]

This thread is fun! I like to check in on it about once a week and see what the argument is about at that point ;)

By the way over at the YYC thread we are duking it out about WJ vs AC in the west and the WJ bias that seems to exist. Come on over, it'll be a blast! :cool:

[lubicon]

After looking back in this thread, it looks like some of us are really going overboard about AC not giving YEG flights to some place in Europe and whatnot. Holy cow. Do I see people in Winnipeg bitching and moaning about having lost AC service to LHR way back in the 1980s? No. They suck it up and go through YYZ to get to Europe or take Zoom. Yes, I'll admit to having been one of those bitching more in the past about YEG's apparent lack of service, but I've learned a lot, even if I'm obviously no expert.

I definitely wouldn't be surprised if we're way better served in terms of international/transborder destinations than most other North American metropolitan areas similar in size to ours. And that's despite YEG being so close to a hub airport (YYC, of course) and that Calgary itself has attributes like being close to Rockies and being a corporate HQ city that Edmonton can't compete with.

One big thing you got to have is PATIENCE. As YEG and Edmonton grows further, we will at least get a few more international flights.

Good point, although it may be more accurate to compare YEG to US cities of similar stature, not necessarily size. Similar sized cities in the US (eg Austin, Oklahoma City, Sacramento etc) do not come close to having the same level of servixe YEG does. But remember that Edmonton (on a canadian scale) is a much larger & more important city than these cities are in the U.S. It may be more accurate to compare YEG to larger American cities that play a similar role to Edmonton.

And there are full blown hub cities in the U.S. that have comparable international traffic/routes to YEG. DEN, SLC, and CVG come to mind. They are actual hub cities but have very few international routes.

Sure it would be nice to have more routes out of YEG, but it's still pretty good and the level of growth has been phenominal the last few years, particulary to the US. It wasn't that long ago the MSP and SLC were the only cities served.

And going slightly OT, I'm hearing rumours of AC planning some fairly big things for YMM (Ft McMurray).

[KrisYYC]

After looking back in this thread, it looks like some of us are really going overboard about AC not giving YEG flights to some place in Europe and whatnot. Holy cow. Do I see people in Winnipeg bitching and moaning about having lost AC service to LHR way back in the 1980s? No. They suck it up and go through YYZ to get to Europe or take Zoom. Yes, I'll admit to having been one of those bitching more in the past about YEG's apparent lack of service, but I've learned a lot, even if I'm obviously no expert.

I definitely wouldn't be surprised if we're way better served in terms of international/transborder destinations than most other North American metropolitan areas similar in size to ours. And that's despite YEG being so close to a hub airport (YYC, of course) and that Calgary itself has attributes like being close to Rockies and being a corporate HQ city that Edmonton can't compete with.

One big thing you got to have is PATIENCE. As YEG and Edmonton grows further, we will at least get a few more international flights.


Great points. Funny how you mentioned Winnpegers not bitching about their perceived lack of service. Over at airliners.net a user from Winnipeg just started a thread complaining that the airlines are ignoring YWG :haha:

[Rocket252]

^ And no one in Calgary bitches about their lack of service?

Oh, thats right Calgary is loved by two Airlines - Westjet and Air Canada.

They have nothing to complain about.

[KrisYYC]

^ And no one in Calgary bitches about their lack of service?

Oh, thats right Calgary is loved by two Airlines - Westjet and Air Canada.

They have nothing to complain about.

I have yet to see a Calgarian on either this forum, or airliners.net complain about Calgary being under served or ignored by airlines. Calgarians for the most part are happy with the service we have. Of course we talk about how we'd love to see more, but we don't act like we are entitled to more service, then whine and throw our toys out of the pram every time an airline announces new service from a city that isn't Calgary.

[Bigtime]

^ And no one in Calgary bitches about their lack of service?

Oh, thats right Calgary is loved by two Airlines - Westjet and Air Canada.

They have nothing to complain about.

I'm happy with our service, but I do want to be loved by Emirates or Cathay Pacific :D

Edit: I'm already on the YWG thread at a.net, I can't wait to watch it degrade and crush that poor forumers dreams of more service for Winnipeg right now.

[tuffyy]

Hence the reason many Edmontonians whine about there service.

I have no complaints about AC personally considering they have been reasonable to YEG despite the fact we live in the shadow of a major focus city for the airline.I have asked AC folk during meetings just what YYC is to AC and the response was always ''focus'' city or mini hub.
That is what YYC is if you look at the major presence in cities such as YYZ,YUL and YVR.
A interesting fact came up when AC added YEG-LHR, we had met several times over a year regarding the route and pulled out the numbers showing the demand for both pax and freight from YEG to Europe in general.
Our aim was service to a gateway european city such as LHR or FRA.Interestingly the numbers were very impressive but the YYC factor/hub kept coming in the way (NO BS).Oddly shortly after BA added YYC AC called for us to meet again.The YEG-LHR route would be added, no if's ands or but's.
Came rather suddenly but we took it.We realized full well what was happening the demand had always been there and now with a competitor entering the market the airline would rather have as many folk fly on AC aircraft then connect at YYC and possibly fly the competiton.
Stop the bleeding before it ever really starts was the theory.
AC's YEG-LHR flights average a 80% load factor and freight is full 9 time out of 10, thats just a average load factor for the flight as it is often full and in many cases oversold.We continue to work with AC and will continue to do so for as long as we and they exsist.
We have strong marketing numbers and are currently in the final stages of a deal with a carrier to offer more international service abroad (all I can say), our transborder numbers are also set to increase in 2008 as we expect we will add more flights (all I can say).And cargo which was always severly underforcasted for YEG should be getting a boost over 2008/09 to numbers much much higher as Port Alberta has gained some major supporters from Asia,the U.S and Europe (all I can say).Sometimes we need to look outside the box and we do it all the time,were arent trying to compete with YYC we are just trying to get YEG service we think it need's and if we earn a few unique items along the way then we cant complain about that...:)

[Edmonchuck]

Jesus christ man. YEG got it's own LHR flight and is doing well, but I guess they're ignoring you guys :rolleyes: . What do you expect? A new overseas flight every 6 months?

I'm an industry insider, and an AC insider for years. (...)
I've never seen such a group of whiners in my life. It really makes you guys look bad. Even the Montrealers don't have such a sense of entitlement.



(...).

Ok Kris. You can say industry insider all you want, and I guess that makes me one too. I understand how the hub and spoke system works. I do. I also know more on the history of AC and YEG - especially in the Crown days.

I will admit that Edmonton is more at fault here. They did everything they could to piss off AC in the 70's. The Muni debate and some comments during the PWA Lougheed years didn't help either. I could agree then that there was a sense of entitlement.

Add to this the focus on competing with CAI out of YYC and that market being a bit overserved at the time, well, that basically forced some hands.

HOWEVER,

There are plenty of examples of AC not playing fair in Edmonton as well. Now, it isn't entitlement as much as it is recognition, and asking AC to not prevent other carriers from servicing Edmonton by hiding behind bi-laterals. One can understand the business model, and some protection, but their PR has stunk in some of the moves they've made.

Add to this a few industry functions I was at in the late 90's/early 00 where the AC rep basically came right out and said YEG service was not going to expand. Times have changed both economically and otherwise, but that attitude was pretty prevelant at the time.

I agree that the hub model AC has in Calgary will be their first thought, but there are bones other than FINALLY an LHR flight that is priced appropriately. The A340 route was a joke in pricing.

I could go on with this, and I don't really have a beef on the service per se (more how they treated CAI pilots and other staff post acquisition, combined with other political moves), but you cannot simply excuse the treatment of Edmonton solely on the hub/spoke model. AC really didn't call Calgary a hub until about 4 years ago anyway, and this issue is about 40 years in the making.

The service has improved as well as relations. AC will do what AC hasd invested in for years. Hence why I am an open skies proponent - healthy for both AC and for YEG.

As for a Calgarian NOT complaining about air service, I've seen it. Plus, let's mention health funding and Jack's whining about Capital Health getting more, Rod's whining about the U of A getting more than the U of C, Dinger's whining about Edmonton getting more attention....so, while in air service, the whining may not be as loud, trust me, in others, it is. I dare you to suggest that the HSR hub is in Edmonton. Dare you. Dare you to suggest moving Travel Alberta to Edmonton. Dare you. People in glass houses...;)

[vaportrail]

...
We have strong marketing numbers and are currently in the final stages of a deal with a carrier to offer more international service abroad (all I can say), our transborder numbers are also set to increase in 2008 as we expect we will add more flights (all I can say).And cargo which was always severly underforcasted for YEG should be getting a boost over 2008/09 to numbers much much higher as Port Alberta has gained some major supporters from Asia,the U.S and Europe (all I can say).
...

Ohhhhh-aaaaaaaagh-mmmff. Oh, yeah! Oh, yeah, baby! That's the stuff.

Where's the kleenex ...

[tuffyy]

Got some of that kool-aid for that stuff^.;)

I will personally hand you one when you see what we have in store...

[LO 044]

Got some of that kool-aid for that stuff^.;)

I will personally hand you one when you see what we have in store...
Tuffyy perhaps we will be handing you the kool-aid when we see what is in store. Keep up the good work and thanks for the updates and explanations.

[Coldrsx]

...eagerly awaiting...

[CanadianCentaur]

Great points. Funny how you mentioned Winnpegers not bitching about their perceived lack of service. Over at airliners.net a user from Winnipeg just started a thread complaining that the airlines are ignoring YWG :haha:

As a longtime member of a.net, I just noticed that! I thought that guy from Winnipeg wasn't posting in a.net anymore or got banned, and then BOOM - he shows up with a thread like that! :haha:

[Ponza]

Ok Kris. You can say industry insider all you want, and I guess that makes me one too. I understand how the hub and spoke system works. I do. I also know more on the history of AC and YEG - especially in the Crown days.

I will admit that Edmonton is more at fault here. They did everything they could to piss off AC in the 70's. The Muni debate and some comments during the PWA Lougheed years didn't help either. I could agree then that there was a sense of entitlement.

Add to this the focus on competing with CAI out of YYC and that market being a bit overserved at the time, well, that basically forced some hands.

HOWEVER,

There are plenty of examples of AC not playing fair in Edmonton as well. Now, it isn't entitlement as much as it is recognition, and asking AC to not prevent other carriers from servicing Edmonton by hiding behind bi-laterals. One can understand the business model, and some protection, but their PR has stunk in some of the moves they've made.

Add to this a few industry functions I was at in the late 90's/early 00 where the AC rep basically came right out and said YEG service was not going to expand. Times have changed both economically and otherwise, but that attitude was pretty prevelant at the time.

I agree that the hub model AC has in Calgary will be their first thought, but there are bones other than FINALLY an LHR flight that is priced appropriately. The A340 route was a joke in pricing.

I could go on with this, and I don't really have a beef on the service per se (more how they treated CAI pilots and other staff post acquisition, combined with other political moves), but you cannot simply excuse the treatment of Edmonton solely on the hub/spoke model. AC really didn't call Calgary a hub until about 4 years ago anyway, and this issue is about 40 years in the making.

The service has improved as well as relations. AC will do what AC hasd invested in for years. Hence why I am an open skies proponent - healthy for both AC and for YEG.

As for a Calgarian NOT complaining about air service, I've seen it. Plus, let's mention health funding and Jack's whining about Capital Health getting more, Rod's whining about the U of A getting more than the U of C, Dinger's whining about Edmonton getting more attention....so, while in air service, the whining may not be as loud, trust me, in others, it is. I dare you to suggest that the HSR hub is in Edmonton. Dare you. Dare you to suggest moving Travel Alberta to Edmonton. Dare you. People in glass houses...;)

Great response to a childish comment. For an industry insider you should know that a hub and spoke system will not function nearly as well in a fully competitive market. Nobody in Edmonton would complain about AC if we were operating in a free market environment. What really burns me is when other carriers want to service YEG and they hide behind there monopoly position to prevent us from getting better service.

Nobody is saying that YEG should have the same service as YYC. To me it totally makes sense that YYC is the larger airport in AB given it being the gateway to the rockies and the HQ's in Calgary. You don't see Edmontonians complaining about WJ even though they provide better service out of YYC than YEG. Simple reason, they treat YEG with respect and don't do anything to try and hamper competition from other airlines. Not to mention they seem to provide direct service out of YEG as soon as the numbers justify.

You can rest assured that if the situation was reversed people in Calgary would complain twice as much as we do.

Give me open skies and let the cards fall where they may.

[KrisYYC]

Great response to a childish comment. For an industry insider you should know that a hub and spoke system will not function nearly as well in a fully competitive market. Nobody in Edmonton would complain about AC if we were operating in a free market environment. What really burns me is when other carriers want to service YEG and they hide behind there monopoly position to prevent us from getting better service.

Nobody is saying that YEG should have the same service as YYC. To me it totally makes sense that YYC is the larger airport in AB given it being the gateway to the rockies and the HQ's in Calgary. You don't see Edmontonians complaining about WJ even though they provide better service out of YYC than YEG. Simple reason, they treat YEG with respect and don't do anything to try and hamper competition from other airlines. Not to mention they seem to provide direct service out of YEG as soon as the numbers justify.

You can rest assured that if the situation was reversed people in Calgary would complain twice as much as we do.

Give me open skies and let the cards fall where they may.


How was my comment childish? How is AC not operating in a free market? There's no laws that say only AC can be the biggest, and that only AC can fly overseas etc. etc.

There is a law that forces AC to have french on every flight (no other carrier is required this) and the same law also forces AC to keep its HQ in Montreal. It's called the Air
Canada act.

How exactly does Westjet respect YEG more than AC does? Who is the larger carrier at YEG? AC.
Westjet may offer more point to point service from YEG and that's great. That's part of their business plan. AC's business plan is different. It doesn't mean they have a hate on for YEGers. Even then, you said Westjet flies when the numbers justify it. No kidding, so does AC. The LHR flight is proof of that.

How does AC try to stop competition other than lowering fares to compete? (which every business on the face of the earth does in a free market, it's called protecting market share)

AC does not hate YEG. They do not ignore YEG. Their business plan is different, and even with that AC will expand their presence at YEG. Just be patient

[Rocket252]

Just don't get it KrisYCC?

Too bad.

Edmonchuck's comments are bang on.

[KrisYYC]

Just don't get it KrisYCC?

Too bad.

Edmonchuck's comments are bang on.

No, I do get it. Edmonchuck makes good points, and there are some legitimate beefs, but this 2008, not 1990.

Regardless of what you guys think, AC is keeping an eye on YEG. There will be some more flights. Just give it time. You can't expect a new overseas flight from one airline every 6 months.

Why are you guys only ragging on AC? What about LH? BA? AF? KL?

[tuffyy]

I think some of the bitterness (if it can be called that) comes from some of the interesting things that AC has done.One example was when Martinair wanted scheduled authority on the AMS-YEG-YYC-AMS route and who blocked it?AC, over a route that they dont even serve...A little misunderstanding to those who dont fully understand the buisness can be made to look bad fairly quickly.

Everyone as krisyyc says be patient, sometimes its worth it...

[CMD UW]

I have faith in you tuffy....I do and I'll be patient.

[rapid_business]

/\ ditto.

[Edmonchuck]

...A little misunderstanding to those who dont fully understand the buisness can be made to look bad fairly quickly.



hence my "bad PR" comment.

There are a few others.

[Edmonchuck]

How was my comment childish? How is AC not operating in a free market? There's no laws that say only AC can be the biggest, and that only AC can fly overseas etc. etc.

There is a law that forces AC to have french on every flight (no other carrier is required this) and the same law also forces AC to keep its HQ in Montreal. It's called the Air
Canada act.



AC does not hate YEG. They do not ignore YEG. Their business plan is different, and even with that AC will expand their presence at YEG. Just be patient

Yeah, gotta love the Air Canada legislation - kinda like CN.;) Really really stupid. Let it be where it wants to be. That is one of many things I could cite where the Feds wanted to keep the former flag carrier #1 and did a few things to help kill CAI, Greyhound, etc. It is where I could take some exception with the "free market"' veil of years past, including cabotage games. However, that is water well under the bridge and this is 2008.

AC doesn't ignore YEG post say 2003. Prior to, I'd argue with you.

It is their business plan, and yes, it is concentrated in what they've built and invested in, and that is YYC in the prairies.

As for the other airlines you quote, they are people that currently cannot service YEG outside BA. However, without OneWorld connections, I don't expect BA in YEG anytime soon outside the odd medical emerg.

[Ponza]

How was my comment childish? How is AC not operating in a free market? There's no laws that say only AC can be the biggest, and that only AC can fly overseas etc. etc.

There is a law that forces AC to have french on every flight (no other carrier is required this) and the same law also forces AC to keep its HQ in Montreal. It's called the Air
Canada act.

How exactly does Westjet respect YEG more than AC does? Who is the larger carrier at YEG? AC.
Westjet may offer more point to point service from YEG and that's great. That's part of their business plan. AC's business plan is different. It doesn't mean they have a hate on for YEGers. Even then, you said Westjet flies when the numbers justify it. No kidding, so does AC. The LHR flight is proof of that.

How does AC try to stop competition other than lowering fares to compete? (which every business on the face of the earth does in a free market, it's called protecting market share)

AC does not hate YEG. They do not ignore YEG. Their business plan is different, and even with that AC will expand their presence at YEG. Just be patient

Other air carriers are not free to come into Canada and provide any service they want. They need approval which AC will fight if it hurts any of their existing routes. I am not blaming them for doing this. My company does the same in the Telecom industry.

You're comments are childish in that you don't seem to be able to understand why this upsets people when it results in them getting the short end of the stick. In terms of where we are today and the service AC provides YEG I call it very average but much better than where it was even 5 years ago.

Personally I fly with AC when they can provide me with the best possible option which is a combination of flight options, price, and service. And while I try to avoid YYC as much as possible I will still connect via YYC is that is my best option.

I agree with you that a call to not fly via AC out of YEG will not help our cause.

[Bigtime]

In the summer of '05 I connected through YEG on my way back to YYC. I just wanted to let you guys know that, do I get any props? :D

In all honesty though part of the reason was to fly a Dash 8 again, it had been so long I jumped at the chance.

Edit: Hmm, I'm asking about props while mentioning I flew through YEG to fly on a prop. Awesome.

[Edmonchuck]

HAHAHA...the drone of a prop....rrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr

Next you're going to quote the sound effect of a DC-3 on a DC-8 in Airplane!

[tuffyy]

~My senses are tingiling~

A rather large announcement is on the way.

Let the guessing game begin...:tup:

[Coldrsx]

~My senses are tingiling~

A rather large announcement is on the way.

Let the guessing game begin...:tup:

well...considering the ERAA terminal/port alberta/airlinks/hotel was one the way for Q1....perhaps?

although i would like to hear:

- FRA
- JAL to osaka
- NYC
- Houston/dallas
- Mexico city yr round

oh and maybe...

-2nd hotel + casino

[rapid_business]

We need to go back a couple pages and pull out some of the ridiculous (or ridiculously awesome!) guesses. All good fun.

[Edmonchuck]

~My senses are tingiling~



Note to tuffy.

TB spiked the Kool-Aid. That explains the tingle in the senses.


Otherwise GAME ON!

[tuffyy]

That was what that blue stuff on friday was...

Still a little ''off'' from that night.:slob:

[Jasper and one o nin]

okay okay, ive been thinking about this. I have NO idea, but I suspect this announcement will be for new service, obviously, and tied to Cargo. Some Asian airlines provide passenger service to Anchorage, and the only reason why, in my mind is due to cargo. Anchorage is strategically located between chinese points and memphis. And so is Edmonton. With Port Alberta, it may make more sense for these carriers to move from ANC to YEG. China Air flies to ANC and then transfers to a number of US points (cargo). Offering a good location for the movement of air cargo. Edmonton is located on the same flight line, but has an advantage with rail, and highways.
My quess is two routes with chinese and maybe japanese carriers - offering connections through codesharing or airline partners or whatever. This would bring some US route on board as well.

[Kevin_foster]

While you are thinking about a big announcement, you have to check this out... thought of you airport/airplane nuts when I saw it :D

http://www.gillesvidal.com/blogpano/cockpit1.htm

Pretty... jaw dropping.

[rapid_business]

/\ just saw that on digg. pretty crazy.

[IKAN104]

Cool. Looks like they have a camera on the tail overlooking the rest of the plane. Do other airliners have that?

[Bigtime]

Cool. Looks like they have a camera on the tail overlooking the rest of the plane. Do other airliners have that?

If I recall correctly I'm pretty sure the A340-600 series has the tail mounted camera to help with taxiing since the a/c is so
long.

Maybe the 777-300 as well?

[Jasper and one o nin]

Apparently, passengers can see this view as well...
http://images.google.ca/imgres?imgurl=http://www.metwashairports.com/_/Gallery%2520Image/_/a3-24_tail_camera.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.metwashairports.com/dulles/about_dulles_international_2/a380_visit/a3-24_tail_camera&h=1333&w=2000&sz=1563&hl=en&start=3&um=1&tbnid=51ZeFG_xLkv5-M:&tbnh=100&tbnw=150&prev=/images%3Fq%3Da380%2Bmounted%2Bcameras%26svnum%3D10%26um%3D1%26hl%3Den%26rls%3DGGLG,GGLG:2006-09,GGLG:en%26sa%3DN

[vaportrail]

~My senses are tingiling~

A rather large announcement is on the way.

Let the guessing game begin...:tup:

I'm going to go with direct Air India flights. If not now, later.

[Bigtime]

I'm going to go with direct Air India flights. If not now, later.

Hmm, by saying "If not now, later." pretty much mean they could start service to India in 2050 and you would be right? :D

Do we have any idea on the timeframe for this announcement? I'm curious to hear what is coming.

[JAH]

What about a place like Vietnam? I know over the last few years, theres been a major increase in tourists going to Vietnam.

[Bigtime]

What about a place like Vietnam? I know over the last few years, theres been a major increase in tourists going to Vietnam.

I think we have to be at least a little realistic here. Does Canada even have an active bi-lateral with Vietnam?

[JAH]

Sorry I know VERY little about the airline industry :)

[ExcaliburKid]

I said it a few pages back, and I think Jasper is on to something too, but Im pretty sold on the idea of an Asian carrier, or an American carrier launching a flight to the Pacific Rim

[Bigtime]

I said it a few pages back, and I think Jasper is on to something too, but Im pretty sold on the idea of an Asian carrier, or an American carrier launching a flight to the Pacific Rim

Are we talking a pax service or cargo?

[ExcaliburKid]

^Pax
Theres always been a bit of a rumor that US Airways would use Edmonton as a stop on their Philly to Shanghai flight

[Bigtime]

^Pax
Theres always been a bit of a rumor that US Airways would use Edmonton as a stop on their Philly to Shanghai flight

Interesting, I'm assuming US Airways uses the 330 for equipment on that flight?

[rapid_business]

/\ Now that would be sweet. 2 for 1 if you would.

[Rocket252]

looks like Premier Stelmach is to announce something this afternoon - possibly dealing with the "big" news everyone is so excited about

[lubicon]

well...considering the ERAA terminal/port alberta/airlinks/hotel was one the way for Q1....perhaps?

although i would like to hear:

- FRA
- JAL to osaka
- NYC
- Houston/dallas
- Mexico city yr round

oh and maybe...

-2nd hotel + casino

IMHO:
Frankfurt - yes
Houston - yes

The others, not a chance in hell. I just don't see a market for those routes.

[Bigtime]

looks like Premier Stelmach is to announce something this afternoon - possibly dealing with the "big" news everyone is so excited about

Maybe he is going to announce that the high speed rail is going ahead, then I'll just go shoot myself! :yuck:

Any chance you guys may get an Amsterdam route?

[Jasper and one o nin]

why would Stelmach make the announcement?

[S_B_Russell]

Stelmach to unveil 20-year capital plan
Latest in series of announcements as election looms
Jason Markusoff, edmontonjournal.com
Published: 11:22 am
EDMONTON - Premier Ed Stelmach will release his government's 20-year capital plan later today, yet another major pre-election announcement that sources say will be short on details about such major, long-proposed projects as the Calgary-to-Edmonton bullet train.Instead, the plan will refer to "high-speed transportation corridors" around the province, a senior government official told The Journal today.
The report will also spell out in generalities how many schools, hospitals and other public buildings the province will need as its population swells to five million people around 2028.


Stelmach will not attach dollar figures to the various long-range proposals. But there will be a whopping, multibillion-dollar estimate of what the 20 years' worth of construction will cost, the source said.

The plan will also include a short timeline for building the Stony Plain Road/Anthony Henday ring road interchange, as well as infrastructure for the proposed "Port Alberta" shipping hub at Edmonton's railyards and international airport.
Stelmach is skipping a climate-change premiers' summit in Vancouver today to release this plan and hold a cabinet meeting, likely his last before he's expected to call an election as early as next Monday after the throne speech.

He's expected to make several more promises this week before hitting the campaign trail, including a pledge to build more schools in Calgary and Edmonton.

jmarkusoff@thejournal.canwest.com




© Edmonton Journal 2008

[ExcaliburKid]

Interesting, I'm assuming US Airways uses the 330 for equipment on that flight?

Well heres the catch; I dont believe there currently exists such a flight. Thats why YEG was rumored as an in-between stop. For fuelling and customs purposes, I think. It made sense to me at the time, but I think the rumor originated from Wolsingerjet on airliners.net, and I dont know that he was very reliable, though he always had some interesting tid-bits regarding YEG. I still think it would be an interesting option, none the less

[Bigtime]

So Eddie has unveiled his Capital Plan, I can't find anything online regarding parts of the announcement for YEG. Anyone have better sources?

[tuffyy]

^I assume you are speaking of Mark Wolsinger?

He was the ''base'' manager for skywest (UAX) in YEG.

He was right about increasing DEN and the addition of more SFO, he got a little excited though with other rumors.

Announcement has not been made as of yet...

[ExcaliburKid]

^Yeah thats the guy. I used to like reading what he had to say regarding the rumors, because it was never too far fetched, and always had a legitimate chance. I take it he's no longer at YEG?

[codeman9669]

...

Announcement has not been made as of yet...

Any idea when, tuffyy?? Are you thinking days, weeks, or months until something is announced?? The suspense is KILLING me, hahahahha :haha:

[lubicon]

I've heard United (Express) has added a 3rd daily to Chicago for the summer. For those keeping score it is now United - 9, Air Canada - 1 for daily transborder flights out of YEG.

[tuffyy]

Someone on another forum has sort of figured out who it is...;)

^Yes UA will increase ORD this summer aswell...

[Bigtime]

Someone on another forum has sort of figured out who it is...;)

^Yes UA will increase ORD this summer aswell...

Would this other forum be a.net by chance?

[vaportrail]

Someone on another forum has sort of figured out who it is...;)

^Yes UA will increase ORD this summer aswell...

The Jade Cargo rumour? That would be swell and all but I hope that's just the tip of the iceberg.

[tuffyy]

^It is, ''just the tip''.

:yes:

[hilman]

FYI

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jade_Cargo_International

Regards

[tuffyy]

Ok folks just for your FYI, the announcement should be made later next week or at the least within a couple.

FYI;It wont be the last for 2008.

:notacrook:

[IKAN104]

Finally, a bone.

[tuffyy]

The guesses have been interesting for 2008 by many people at the airport, I have had people asking in a round about way is it service to Texas?Europe?Asia?Is it -------Air?is it ----? or is it ---------?

I can tell you we speak to many airlines in a given year and that late 2007 was VERY productive for attracting carriers to sit at the table with us, even a couple we did not expect who approached us.

One airline in particular who now wants YEG has limited to service to N.america as a whole.

And with Port Alberta picking up the pace the number of cargo carriers showing a large interest in the market is more than we expected.

[Coldrsx]

^cant wait!

[Jasper and one o nin]

Come on Aeroflot!! Im serious

[McLovin]

Hi All,

I am newcomer to the forum and just wanted to say hi. All of you are doing a wonderful job of obtaining insightful information and going out of your way to post it here. I really hope that YEG gets some amazing flights to some exotic far off destinations plus some excellent cargo connections.

At this point I have to add my two cents, and please, please take it with a grain of salt, I am not 100% sure of any of this and it is a rumour:

1. I dated someone that worked for the Netherlands Consulate and was told that Edmonton may have a Netherlands government office re-open due to renewed interest from Amsterdam. And the government officials stated that if they came back to Edmonton, they would bring KLM with them. Now will this go ahead for sure, no one knows, but this person applied for a transfer to Edmonton if the possibility comes up for such an office or outpost.

2. Another person stated that a company known as "China Shipping" has so much going thru Edmonton that they want to get involved with Port Alberta. Not sure what this means either, but just thought I would let you all know.

So once again, please take this information with some caution, and I hope for the best for YEG, and for all of you great people in Edmonton. Take care, McLovin.

[Coldrsx]

^welcome and i hope those become reality

[tuffyy]

Current bilaterals dont permit the service on a scheduled basis, but I did say ''current''.

Things can change.

[KrisYYC]

Current bilaterals dont permit the service on a scheduled basis, but I did say ''current''.

Things can change.

There was a bilateral signed in 2004 that allowed for scheduled flights between Canada and Russia, but I don't know any of the specifics (cities, number of flights allowed etc).


Unless that bilateral has been dissolved since.

[tuffyy]

United has increased service effective June 1st on the YEG-ORD and YEG-DEN route effective April 1st.

YEG-ORD goes to 3 daily flights (up from 2) as of June 1st.

YEG-DEN goes to 4 daily flights (up from 3) as of April 1st.

YEG-SFO remains at 2 daily flights.

Good news...

More to come.

[Coldrsx]

^nice

[CMD UW]

Very nice.

[tuffyy]

So it sounds like this is infact the week for one of the announcements, office talk today seems to confirms this.

It also seems that AC may be making adjustments to the YEG-LAX route with the possibility of going to a EMB-190 and increasing to 2 flights a day.Not confirmed though so dont quote me just yet.With the amount of baggage that regularly gets bumped because of the CRJ-705's limited amount of baggage space, I will not be surprised.

[Rocket252]

Your the man Tuffyy!!

Keep the good news coming.