[tdawg]

Atlanta growth tops in nation

By BRIAN FEAGANS
The Atlanta Journal-Constitution
Published on: 04/05/07
When Detroit accountant David Gibson married a Midtown Atlanta legal secretary a couple of years ago, his bride began preparing for a move to the Motor City.

Then it snowed.

"She changed her mind," Gibson said Wednesday, pumping his fist up and down at a Subway restaurant in Gwinnett County. "I was like, 'Yes' "

Gibson, 46, wasn't the only one who said "yes" to Atlanta.

No other metro area in the country added more residents — roughly 890,000 — between 2000 to 2006, according to U.S. Census Bureau city rankings released today. Dallas, Houston, Phoenix and Riverside, Calif., rounded out the top five.

Atlanta's surge has pushed the area above the 5 million-person mark, the census reported last month, to an estimated 5,138,000 in July 2006. That has led to less desirable No. 1 rankings — in average commute time increases, for example. But the region's continued magnetism speaks to its resilience in the face of the Sept. 11 terrorist attacks and dot-com industry woes, forces that since 2000 have crippled growth in many other cities.

"I think there was some talk a couple years ago that the bloom was off the rose in metro Atlanta," said William Frey, a demographer at the Brookings Institution in Washington. "I think these numbers show that's not true."

Atlanta is now the clear leader in a national population shift toward the South and Sunbelt, Frey said. Many newcomers to the 28 counties of metro Atlanta have arrived from old economy cities around the Great Lakes. Others are fleeing the expensive housing bubbles of the Northeast in favor of Atlanta's comparatively cheap houses, Frey said.

As a result, since 2000, metro Atlanta has vaulted to No. 9 nationally in total population, passing Boston and Detroit.

Even New York, the nation's most populous metro area at 18.8 million, has mustered only half the increase that Atlanta has this decade.

The growth has challenged school systems and transportation officials to keep up, said Mike Alexander, chief of the research division at the Atlanta Regional Commission planning agency. Trailer classrooms and traffic jams are a daily reality in many parts of the region.

But the good news, Alexander said, is that people have had enough confidence to move here despite slower job growth than in the late 1990s. And now there are signs that employment is catching up, he said, with Hartsfield-Jackson International Airport recovered from the post-Sept. 11 slump and Delta Air Lines expected to emerge from bankruptcy this spring. "We've honestly already taken our hit on the tech sector," he said.

While roughly a third of metro Atlanta's growth came in the form of births, newcomers from outside the region drove most of the increase, the census figures revealed.

Soo Kwon of Duluth said she and her husband spent a decade in Chicago before moving to Atlanta last year in search of investment opportunities in the region's growing Korean community. Now Kwon, 36, is working as a clerk at Maum, an upscale cafe near Doraville filled with Midwestern transplants. Her husband works in commercial real estate.

Kwon recalled hearing about Atlanta's fabulous weather from friends who moved here four years earlier. Chicago, she said, was simply too cold.

Chalk up another one to the snow.

[sentinel]

^^^ Sigh, whenever I hear about people leaving places like Chicago because of the cold weather (which is probably that way for only a good 1/4 of the calender year) it just breaks my heart because you leave something good, a great place to live, with so much to do, so much culture, so many missed opportunities simply because you were too lazy to put on a sweater. Not that there is anything wrong with any other city and not that Chicago/Chicagoland is losing people (400,000+ people is still a fairly big gain), it's just that the "weather card" is a pretty lame excuse. Why are so many other cities around the world which also have large seasonal temperature variances still thriving and gaining people? Paris, Moscow, London, Beijing, etc, etc, etc...
Somehow, I think (specifically) the weather claim is pretty dubious; I think a lot of it is solely about money and the (supposed) value one gets from newer, developing areas as compared to living in a dense, urban core area; it's still a pervasive myth in this country, coupled with the still-pervasive frontier mentality that a lot of people have as well, yet now it seems that the new American "frontier" is the exurb, which probably accounts for a lot of the Metropolitan growth which is being touted in articles like this.

[Crawford]

I can't say I'm happy about this but migration patterns will eventually change. The South moved North for a few decades, now the North is moving South for a few decades. For all we know, Detroit will be America's boomtown in 2030.

I also don't understand the weather argument. Sure, I'd move to South Florida if I wanted subtropical weather and I'd move to the West Coast if I wanted a temperate climate, but ATL weather is no better than up north. Winters are still quite cold, except when the north has 20F ATL has 30F. Summers are very hot and humid. Bascally ATL has slightly warmer winters and summers.

Dallas makes even less sense. Summers in Dallas are insanely hot. People really move to Dallas for the great weather?

[ginsan2]

^^^ Sigh, whenever I hear about people leaving places like Chicago because of the cold weather (which is probably that way for only a good 1/4 of the calender year) it just breaks my heart because you leave something good, a great place to live, with so much to do, so much culture, so many missed opportunities simply because you were too lazy to put on a sweater. Not that there is anything wrong with any other city and not that Chicago/Chicagoland is losing people (400,000+ people is still a fairly big gain), it's just that the "weather card" is a pretty lame excuse. Why are so many other cities around the world which also have large seasonal temperature variances still thriving and gaining people? Paris, Moscow, London, Beijing, etc, etc, etc...
Somehow, I think (specifically) the weather claim is pretty dubious; I think a lot of it is solely about money and the (supposed) value one gets from newer, developing areas as compared to living in a dense, urban core area; it's still a pervasive myth in this country, coupled with the still-pervasive frontier mentality that a lot of people have as well, yet now it seems that the new American "frontier" is the exurb, which probably accounts for a lot of the Metropolitan growth which is being touted in articles like this.
Well, to be honest, and fair... Paris, London and Beijing are not as cold as Chicago. They actually have warm autumns, extended summers and winters that see an end in February... Moscow is obviously the exception ;)
I know it's painful to think, but Chicago simply is too cold. Summer is too short, winter too long, and there's no real spring/autumn. I'm fine with this, because I thrive in cold/dry weather, but I understand why most people say "no thank you" to it.

[TexasBoi]

Dallas makes even less sense. Summers in Dallas are insanely hot. People really move to Dallas for the great weather?

Probably because many people can deal with the hot weather better than they can with the cold weather. I know a person born and raised in Chicago that wanted to move to Dallas and I kept telling her than the summers can be brutal. She didn't care saying she can deal with 95 degree temperature and now 5 degree temperature anymore.

At least Dallas is dry heat, though. Houston is really bad because it's very humid. But the winters are one of the best in the nation.

[Mr Roboto]

I dont know, winter in chicago and places up north can totally suck while you are in it. But once its over, you notice that it wasn't so bad. And I hate cold weather more than most, I spent a lot of my time growing up in a tropical country.

Moving just for the weather is a lame excuse imo, there have to be other factors involved. I always joke with my fiance that we should move to Miami or something when it starts getting cold, but I know we probably aren't ever going to leave chicago. We like this city too much to let the cold weather affect us like that.

[TexasBoi]

lol. I love cold weather though. Hell my fam said they would not visit me in the DC area because it gets too cold. They are from Florida, though.

[shanthemanatl]

I can't say I'm happy about this but migration patterns will eventually change. The South moved North for a few decades, now the North is moving South for a few decades. For all we know, Detroit will be America's boomtown in 2030.

I also don't understand the weather argument. Sure, I'd move to South Florida if I wanted subtropical weather and I'd move to the West Coast if I wanted a temperate climate, but ATL weather is no better than up north. Winters are still quite cold, except when the north has 20F ATL has 30F. Summers are very hot and humid. Bascally ATL has slightly warmer winters and summers.

Dallas makes even less sense. Summers in Dallas are insanely hot. People really move to Dallas for the great weather?

As someone who has lived in Atlanta for 8 years now, I can tell you that the winters here are nothing like they are up north!

The average high temp in Atlanta at the end of January is 51 degrees, and the average low is 34. Snow and/or ice is extremely uncommon, and it's not unusual to have occasional days in the 60s and 70s, even in January. Spring and Fall are absolutely stunning, and Summer is not as hot and humid as many people believe. Yes, July and August can get a bit sticky, but Atlanta's average high in mid-July is only 88 degrees.

[trvlr70]

As our econmy keeps becoming more and more service oriented and more and more work can be done from a laptop in your bedroom, I think people will continually move to more favorable climates. Especially ones without threat of hurricanes, earthquakes, volcanic eruptions, wildfires, etc..

Ex., Atlanta.

[Marcu]

The biggest metros

Here are the nation's largest metropolitan areas — regions centered on one or more cities of at least 50,000 people.

Metro area 2000 pop. 2006 pop. Pct. chg. Metro area 2000 pop. 2006 pop. Pct. chg.

New York 18,323,382 18,818,536 2.7% Boston 4,392,340 4,455,217 1.4%

Los Angeles 12,365,619 12,950,129 4.7% San Francisco-Oakland 4,123,742 4,180,027 1.4%

Chicago 9,098,615 9,505,748 4.5% Phoenix 3,251,876 4,039,182 24.2%

Dallas-Fort Worth 5,161,518 6,003,967 16.3% Riverside, Calif. 3,254,821 4,026,135 23.7%

Philadelphia 5,687,141 5,826,742 2.5% Seattle-Tacoma 3,043,885 3,263,497 7.2%

Houston 4,715,402 5,539,949 17.5% Minneapolis-St. Paul 2,968,817 3,175,041 6.9%

Miami-Dade 5,007,988 5,463,857 9.1% San Diego 2,813,833 2,941,454 4.5%

Washington 4,796,180 5,290,400 10.3% St. Louis 2,698,672 2,796,368 3.6%

Atlanta 4,248,012 5,138,223 21.0% Tampa-St. Petersburg 2,396,013 2,697,731 12.6%

Detroit 4,452,557 4,468,966 0.4%

[Marcu]

Can anyone explain the insane growth in DC? 10% compared to 4.5% in Chicago, 4.7% in LA, 1.4% in Boston, and 2.7% in NY. Is it the increase in government jobs since 9/11?

[Crawford]

Can anyone explain the insane growth in DC? 10% compared to 4.5% in Chicago, 4.7% in LA, 1.4% in Boston, and 2.7% in NY. Is it the increase in government jobs since 9/11?

Yes, and also the growth in government contractors. Suburban MD has very strong growth and suburban VA is even stronger. Loudon County, VA was practically rural 10 years ago and now is typical sprawling exurbia.

I like the MD suburbs but I generally dislike the VA suburbs. The rate of growth has (IMO) contributed to a drop in the quality of life in places like Fairfax County, VA. Traffic in Northern VA seems worse than even in LA and the quality of the growth in VA seems to lag that of MD.

[LSyd]

^ i agree; VA's burbs seem a lot crappier than MD's (except for Alexandria and Arlington, lol.)

-

[tdawg]

The climate issue is valid. For instance, it snowed today in NYC!

[Crawford]

The climate issue is valid. For instance, it snowed today in NYC!

It's currently 40F in NYC and 48F in ATL. How is that a substantial difference?

Someone who doesn't like the current temp in NYC will not be much happier in ATL.

[zilfondel]

Well, to be honest, and fair... Paris, London and Beijing are not as cold as Chicago. They actually have warm autumns, extended summers and winters that see an end in February... Moscow is obviously the exception ;)
I know it's painful to think, but Chicago simply is too cold. Summer is too short, winter too long, and there's no real spring/autumn. I'm fine with this, because I thrive in cold/dry weather, but I understand why most people say "no thank you" to it.

Really? What about everyone who lives in Canada? They don't seem to mind. Not that they have a Florida, either. ;)

[shanthemanatl]

It's currently 40F in NYC and 48F in ATL. How is that a substantial difference?

Someone who doesn't like the current temp in NYC will not be much happier in ATL.

Wow, Crawford, you're really reaching on this weather thing. A freak early-spring cold snap hardly proves that Atlanta and New York have equally "cold" climates. I will say, however, that when I think of a cold, northern climate, NYC really doesn't come to mind. I guess your proximity to the ocean moderates your temps a good bit in the winter.

There will be days this summer when Atlanta will be 85 degrees and NYC will be 90 degrees. Will that be proof that NYC is "hotter" than Atlanta?

[Tuckerman]

The weather card is only a small piece of the story. I spent > 50 years living in the “frozen North” (Chicago, Boston, Edinburgh, Baltimore, etc) before moving to ATL – weather had nothing to do with the move, but now I see the weather as a good reason never to move back North. The “Winters” are just nippy enough to remind you that there is cold out there, but usually just a few days where you have to put on jacket. Summers are hot and humid, but Chicago, Baltimore, etc are hot and humid as well and for some reason the heat and humidity here is more tolerable – air conditioning is seemingly more common, more efficient and one seems to spend less time in that hot and humid air.

[dave8721]

The climate issue is valid. For instance, it snowed today in NYC!

I dont think that Climate has much to do with it, for example DC grew faster than Miami or LA. And both Miami and LA had very negative domestic migration patterns. Its more people leaving expensive cities for sprawly cheap cities like Atlanta, Houston & Dallas.

What do the fast growing metros (Pheonix, Atlanta, Houston, Tampa, & Dallas) all have in common? They are cheap for housing compared to other large metros. Its no mystery here folks...

[trvlr70]

Can anyone explain the insane growth in DC? 10% compared to 4.5% in Chicago, 4.7% in LA, 1.4% in Boston, and 2.7% in NY. Is it the increase in government jobs since 9/11?

As far as compared to Chicago, I'd say much more moderate climate and coastal influence.

[Crawford]

I dont think that Climate has much to do with it, for example DC grew faster than Miami or LA. And both Miami and LA had very negative domestic migration patterns. Its more people leaving expensive cities for sprawly cheap cities like Atlanta, Houston & Dallas.

What do the fast growing metros (Pheonix, Atlanta, Houston, Tampa, & Dallas) all have in common? They are cheap for housing compared to other large metros. Its no mystery here folks...

Yes, I think housing cost is the primary factor.

[tdawg]

you don't buy a house in a city where you don't have a job people. It's job growth.

[BnaBreaker]

I wish the growth in Atlanta would slow down, for it's own sake. The city really needs a chance to catch up to all of the growth that has been happening there over the past few decades. I know some overly sensitive folks will take this as a knock on the city, but I assure you it is not. It would be a great thing if Atlanta, and many other cities, could temporarily stop growing so their infrastructure and transportation systems and the like could catch up to the growth. Obviously I don't realistically think that this would happen but ya know, it is what it is.

[DBR96A]

Using the weather as an excuse to move is lame. I lived in Athens, GA for 10 years. The average high temperature there in January is 53, and the average low is 32. That means it freezes on an average January night. Also, while 53 is too warm for snow, it's still too cold to be comfortable, or to be conducive to outdoor activities. As far as I'm concerned, if it's going to be too cold to be "comfortable," then it may as well be cold enough to snow, because snow is at least nice to look at, unlike yellow sod and dead trees.

Before I lived in Athens, I lived in Pittsburgh. I remember days in January when the temperatures were in the 60's. I also remember going to a Q-Zar lock-in in Atlanta in January 2003. Low temperatures in Atlanta were in the single digits that night. It was cold enough that they had to turn the heat on in the arena, even though people were running around.

People who hate snow are pussies, as far as I'm concerned.

[PhillyRising]

I dont know, winter in chicago and places up north can totally suck while you are in it. But once its over, you notice that it wasn't so bad. And I hate cold weather more than most, I spent a lot of my time growing up in a tropical country.

Moving just for the weather is a lame excuse imo, there have to be other factors involved. I always joke with my fiance that we should move to Miami or something when it starts getting cold, but I know we probably aren't ever going to leave chicago. We like this city too much to let the cold weather affect us like that.

I find it hysterical that people equate snow storms worse than living under the threat of hurricanes.(South Atlantic States..Florida...Gulf Coast) and tornados (how many times do you hears deaths from them in the south...as opposed to the north?). I've said it before and I'll say it again....people don't wind up in FEMA trailers after a Nor'easter. The snow falls...it gets plowed and shoveled...it melts...no harm...no foul. I'm sure people in New Orleans and the Gulf Coast would have much rather dug out from a blizzard than have their towns wiped out by a hurricane.

BTW....it's easier to stay warm than it is to cool off.

I hope most SunBelt boosters don't think that this rapid growth will last forever. As has been the history of this country...things change and people find a new place to migrate to...to which at some point we'll come full circle and Detroit and Buffalo will be the "It" places to be....

[BnaBreaker]

BTW....it's easier to stay warm than it is to cool off.


Exactly. You can be naked and still be hot as a crotch. lol

[Tuckerman]

I wish the growth in Atlanta would slow down, for it's own sake. The city really needs a chance to catch up to all of the growth that has been happening there over the past few decades. I know some overly sensitive folks will take this as a knock on the city, but I assure you it is not. It would be a great thing if Atlanta, and many other cities, could temporarily stop growing so their infrastructure and transportation systems and the like could catch up to the growth. Obviously I don't realistically think that this would happen but ya know, it is what it is.

BnaBreaker

You make a good point. When the older cities like Chicago and NYC were growing at phenomenal rates there was also a consciousness about the “commons” that seems to be lacking now. When you think of Chicago you think of the great expositions, the Midway, the waterfront the great philanthropic museums like the Field Museum etc. Same with NYC, great philanthropic gifts that build the Met, the Frick, etc. It is hard to imagine current day entrepreneurs setting aside a piece of land like Central Park for a park. The real estate is just worth too much. Of course there are current day examples like the Getty in LA or the Aquarium in ATL, but these are few and far between in relation ship to the explosive growth. A similar point could be made for rapid-transit infrastructure now versus 100 years ago.

[DallasTexan]

Snow doesn't do any damage? Tell that to the people of Buffalo circa October 11, 2006. Just sayin'...

Also, when is this big migratory change going to happen?

As for me, I'd much rather be warm and have my central AC going. Ugggh, I can't BELIEVE that it's snowing in Buffalo in APRIL.

These gray, cold days get so depressing. At least it isn't 3 degrees anymore though...

[brickell]

Do people really think that Buffalo and Detroit will "rise" again?
Fine places I'm sure but they've been left behind, like a Charleston or New Orleans, they will most likely continue being large cities, but lacking the importance and standing they once did. New boomtowns will emerge based on who knows what (Vegas, San Diego, Miami) , but those are as likely in today's small and medium sized cities as they are in the old players. I'm not saying it's a north/south thing just an unknown thing.

[bobcat]

I think most people here are still pretty young so cold weather may not be such a big deal, but for a lot of older folks with lots of physical ailments the weather can make a HUGE difference in their quality of life. This needs to be taken into consideration because senior citizens may be the fastest growing segment of the population.

[EastSideHBG]

Do people really think that Buffalo and Detroit will "rise" again?
Fine places I'm sure but they've been left behind, like a Charleston or New Orleans, they will most likely continue being large cities, but lacking the importance and standing they once did. New boomtowns will emerge based on who knows what (Vegas, San Diego, Miami) , but those are as likely in today's small and medium sized cities as they are in the old players. I'm not saying it's a north/south thing just an unknown thing.
I totally agree! I think places like Buffalo, Detroit, etc., have a lot more working against them than just "bad" weather (bad is in " " because that is all relative). It's the politics, the taxes, the mentality, the lack of solid job growth...THAT is what keeps people moving away from these places. Until they fix themselves, the bleeding will continue to happen.

Weather is a factor for ATL's growth I am sure, but it's not *that much* different than NYC, south (there is no arguing that Chicago, MN, Boston, etc., is on the colder end of the spectrum). But it all comes down to jobs, housing and cost of living. Whether you like ATL or not, you have to give credit where credit is due: people and companies don't just fall into places, they are lured there.

But all you growth boosters out there, be very leery...it has just as many (if not more) cons than pros...

[Mr Roboto]

I think most people here are still pretty young so cold weather may not be such a big deal, but for a lot of older folks with lots of physical ailments the weather can make a HUGE difference in their quality of life. This needs to be taken into consideration because senior citizens may be the fastest growing segment of the population.

A very good point. People are living much longer in todays world.

[PhillyRising]

Exactly. You can be naked and still be hot as a crotch. lol

I loathe the hot weather. That week I spent in Houston during August 2000 was the most miserable summer weather I ever experienced. I'd rather deal with the snow.

[LA21st]

Exactly. You can be naked and still be hot as a crotch. lol

LOL. But anyway, heat stroke is no joke. I have had 2, and they kind of hits you fast...you dont know how much danger you are in until its too late.
When its freezing, you body goes numb and skin becomes painful and changes different colors, you know you are in deep shit and go inside or put on more layers.
Cold weather takes longer to kill you than heat does, easily. You really have to be brain dead one day or in a awful, unfortunate situation to freeze to death.

Drink your water people...I was fortunate to realize it enough to get to the hospital but that was only because I had one a few years earlier. It takes weeks to recover from a heat stroke to do physical activity. At least for me.
Really hot, humid weather makes me nervous because of the heat strokes. It can hit you so fast.

[tdawg]

I'd take a summer in atlanta any day over our sweltering, smelly, sticky NY summers. At least in atlanta there is abundant air conditioning everywhere. Ever stood on a subway platform for ten minutes in August in NYC?!?

[Stratosphere 2020]

you don't buy a house in a city where you don't have a job people. It's job growth.


Well you put sense in people in this thread, thank you for doing that! :yes:

[PhillyRising]

Snow doesn't do any damage? Tell that to the people of Buffalo circa October 11, 2006. Just sayin'...

Also, when is this big migratory change going to happen?

As for me, I'd much rather be warm and have my central AC going. Ugggh, I can't BELIEVE that it's snowing in Buffalo in APRIL.

These gray, cold days get so depressing. At least it isn't 3 degrees anymore though...


Fine...we know you hate Buffalo. We know you hate the North. That is your preference and your opinion but that does not mean one area is that much better than the other when it comes to weather. That storm was a fluke...but it still wasn't quite like the devastation the south takes during hurricanes. I'd also would rather suffer through a cold, gray day than having to dodge a tornado that is prevelant in the south this time of year. So..each area has their weather pros and cons.

When will it happen? That's hard to say. Thirty years ago nobody gave Atlanta a second thought, Seattle and trendy would never have been spoken in the same sentence, New York was broke and in disarray and everyone thought California was the promised land.

[DallasTexan]

I don't hate the north - but Buffalo is a different story all together ;)

Don't YOU hate the South?

BTW, Atlanta had a 30% growth rate in the metro 30 years ago, so apparently a lot of people were thinking about it then as well ...

[GTviajero81]

I have lived in Los Angeles, New York City, Paris, and now Atlanta. And my favourite out of the three? Atlanta, hands down. Why are people moving here in droves, as the latest Census report has shown? Because we have almost everything needed, and if it's not here you can get it rather quickly. Let's look at it:
1) Cool winters, with a few days to make you feel sorry for our fellow Northern countrymen. I relish the idea that I can be in Fargo with a lovely high of -8 in late February and get to Atlanta with temps hovering in the upper 60s (or even 91 degrees about 3 weeks ago in ATL).
2) Long summers. I can go hang out with friends at the lakes around the State or enjoy nights out grilling from early March to early November. Awesome!
3) Beaches. I know most of you all are like, "WHAT?!?" But it's true. The closest beach would be Tybee Island outside Savannah, about a 4 hours drive. Pensacola is 4.5 to 5 hours away, Tampa is 6, Naples about 7 and change. Going to the beach for us in Atlanta is a nice little weekend getaway. If you can afford to fly there, then SAV becomes 40 mins, PNS becomes 55 mins, and Tampa just about one hour. Awesome!
4) Skiing. "WHAT?!?!" Believe it or not we do have skiing in the South. North GA mountains is about 1.5 hours way and N.C. is 2 to 2.5. Again, totally doable in a day, but great for a short weekend trip.
5) Jobs. You hardly ever hear anyone in Atlanta complaining of not being able to find a job. Jobs are easy to come by here. In any level. And with so many institutes of higher education in the Metro area? Gosh, it's so easy to earn an MBA or Master's Degree here on your own time.
6) Housing Costs. So what it's cheaper to live here? Is it somehow better to pay out the arse for housing? It is still so cool to know that one can get a condo at Twelve Centennial Park (Downtown Atlanta) starting at US$190K (those might have sold out already). People complain that we are materialistic here in Atlanta --- it may because we have more disposable money for luxury items and for fun!
7) Airport. I can fly to five out of the seven continents non-stop. And take the subway there. And only take 15 minutes from downtown with the train station RIGHT in the airport. Not too many other places can claim that (with the exception of O'Hare, but that is a 45 min trip from the Loop, and DCA is not International).
8) Cost of living. You folks up North seem to enjoy paying such high prices for gasoline. And groceries. And entertainment. I love that I can pay (as of today) 2.37 for petrol and enjoy a pitcher of margaritas on an outdoor patio in April for 5 bucks.

So you see there are many reasons why people move here. I wish folks would also differentiate between the Atlanta suburbs and the city itself. Living in the city I can get to anything I really want with our public trans. We have everything that is in the suburbs now. I can't tell you the last time that I really had to either drive or take the train outside of our Perimeter to buy anything. Yeah, if I wanted to go to buy guns for hunting then yes, but since I could not even tell you the start of any of the hunting seasons then I obviously have no need to go to any of these type of outdoor stores.

And driving in rain is WAY more preferable to driving in snow. Most folks may not be able to drive well in the snow down here, but we can sure drive the heck out of rain. Thunderstorms? Bring 'em on! We'll still be screaming down the freeways at 70mph (with a few folks messing it up for the rest of us).

Here is something for locals. Don't you also love how when someone let's you get in front of them in traffic or turn in front of them how we wave to acknowledge them? I sure as heck didn't learn to do that in driving school back in NYC. :)

Let the counterpoints begin!

[Stratosphere 2020]

Thirty years ago nobody gave Atlanta a second thought, Seattle and trendy would never have been spoken in the same sentence, New York was broke and in disarray and everyone thought California was the promised land.

How times have changed. But prior to visiting Atlanta for the first time in 1996, I thought it was a dirty rundown city where the Olympics were being held. I was pleasently and positively surprized after my visit.

[sprtsluvr8]

The best part of Atlanta weather is that warm weather essentially begins during the last part of February, and cold winter weather (what little there is of it) doesn't start until after Thanksgiving. So we have extra long, beautiful Spring and Fall seasons. Even in December/January there are many 60/70 degree days, and rarely is it below freezing even at night. Yes, we do have a cold stretch of days sometimes, and sometimes in April we get frost...like the forecast for the next couple of days. But these differences do mean a lot to a lot of people.

I don't even have to wear a coat to work in the a.m. most of the time in winter...

[GTviajero81]

I just love not having to shovel snow out of the driveway! *Sigh* I do remember making a good chunk of change as a young'n back in New York doing the exact thing however! :) Good times when $5 was a lot of money!

[BnaBreaker]

I have lived in Los Angeles, New York City, Paris, and now Atlanta. And my favourite out of the three? Atlanta, hands down. Why are people moving here in droves, as the latest Census report has shown? Because we have almost everything needed, and if it's not here you can get it rather quickly. Let's look at it:
1) Cool winters, with a few days to make you feel sorry for our fellow Northern countrymen. I relish the idea that I can be in Fargo with a lovely high of -8 in late February and get to Atlanta with temps hovering in the upper 60s (or even 91 degrees about 3 weeks ago in ATL).
2) Long summers. I can go hang out with friends at the lakes around the State or enjoy nights out grilling from early March to early November. Awesome!
3) Beaches. I know most of you all are like, "WHAT?!?" But it's true. The closest beach would be Tybee Island outside Savannah, about a 4 hours drive. Pensacola is 4.5 to 5 hours away, Tampa is 6, Naples about 7 and change. Going to the beach for us in Atlanta is a nice little weekend getaway. If you can afford to fly there, then SAV becomes 40 mins, PNS becomes 55 mins, and Tampa just about one hour. Awesome!
4) Skiing. "WHAT?!?!" Believe it or not we do have skiing in the South. North GA mountains is about 1.5 hours way and N.C. is 2 to 2.5. Again, totally doable in a day, but great for a short weekend trip.
5) Jobs. You hardly ever hear anyone in Atlanta complaining of not being able to find a job. Jobs are easy to come by here. In any level. And with so many institutes of higher education in the Metro area? Gosh, it's so easy to earn an MBA or Master's Degree here on your own time.
6) Housing Costs. So what it's cheaper to live here? Is it somehow better to pay out the arse for housing? It is still so cool to know that one can get a condo at Twelve Centennial Park (Downtown Atlanta) starting at US$190K (those might have sold out already). People complain that we are materialistic here in Atlanta --- it may because we have more disposable money for luxury items and for fun!
7) Airport. I can fly to five out of the seven continents non-stop. And take the subway there. And only take 15 minutes from downtown with the train station RIGHT in the airport. Not too many other places can claim that (with the exception of O'Hare, but that is a 45 min trip from the Loop, and DCA is not International).
8) Cost of living. You folks up North seem to enjoy paying such high prices for gasoline. And groceries. And entertainment. I love that I can pay (as of today) 2.37 for petrol and enjoy a pitcher of margaritas on an outdoor patio in April for 5 bucks.

So you see there are many reasons why people move here. I wish folks would also differentiate between the Atlanta suburbs and the city itself. Living in the city I can get to anything I really want with our public trans. We have everything that is in the suburbs now. I can't tell you the last time that I really had to either drive or take the train outside of our Perimeter to buy anything. Yeah, if I wanted to go to buy guns for hunting then yes, but since I could not even tell you the start of any of the hunting seasons then I obviously have no need to go to any of these type of outdoor stores.

And driving in rain is WAY more preferable to driving in snow. Most folks may not be able to drive well in the snow down here, but we can sure drive the heck out of rain. Thunderstorms? Bring 'em on! We'll still be screaming down the freeways at 70mph (with a few folks messing it up for the rest of us).

Here is something for locals. Don't you also love how when someone let's you get in front of them in traffic or turn in front of them how we wave to acknowledge them? I sure as heck didn't learn to do that in driving school back in NYC. :)

Let the counterpoints begin!


So, in other words, the actual CITY of Atlanta itself has nothing to do with why you like it there. I mean, to each his own obviously, but if what you look for in a city revolves souly around things like how cheap the gas is (no gas required to get around in NYC) and how close it is to OTHER things (beaches IN the city of NYC, an hour to better skiing, more beaches, and Philly, the hamptons), then you probably don't really have much interest in the dynamic of cities to begin with.

[PhillyRising]

Do people really think that Buffalo and Detroit will "rise" again?
Fine places I'm sure but they've been left behind, like a Charleston or New Orleans, they will most likely continue being large cities, but lacking the importance and standing they once did. New boomtowns will emerge based on who knows what (Vegas, San Diego, Miami) , but those are as likely in today's small and medium sized cities as they are in the old players. I'm not saying it's a north/south thing just an unknown thing.

...and won't those places eventually decline and be left behind? At the rate we're going through cities and throwing them away the next boomtowns will be in Nebraska.

[galaca]

So, in other words, the actual CITY of Atlanta itself has nothing to do with why you like it there. I mean, to each his own obviously, but if what you look for in a city revolves souly around things like how cheap the gas is (no gas required to get around in NYC) and how close it is to OTHER things (beaches IN the city of NYC, an hour to better skiing, more beaches, and Philly, the hamptons), then you probably don't really have much interest in the dynamic of cities to begin with.

Reading>You


So you see there are many reasons why people move here. I wish folks would also differentiate between the Atlanta suburbs and the city itself. Living in the city I can get to anything I really want with our public trans. We have everything that is in the suburbs now. I can't tell you the last time that I really had to either drive or take the train outside of our Perimeter to buy anything. Yeah, if I wanted to go to buy guns for hunting then yes, but since I could not even tell you the start of any of the hunting seasons then I obviously have no need to go to any of these type of outdoor stores.

[BnaBreaker]

Reading>You

Reading is better than me? I don't get it. :sly:

[GTviajero81]

Thanks galaca. It's funny how people here are quick to not read everything that someone posts. Not a very good conversational trait.

What I intended to demonstrate was that for all my daily needs, Atlanta CITY has it all for me and for many of us who choose to make it home. If I need to travel (and I presume you yourself like to take little weekend jaunts from time to time?) I don't have far to go. In fact, I am writing this from my hotel room here in Frankfurt, Germany (travelling here courtesy of taking MARTA 25 minutes from Edgewood/Candler Park to ATL and then Delta non-stop to FRA). As far as having an interest in the dynamics of cities? Please, talk to me after you've completed some of the upper level courses in City Planning at Georgia Tech (which I've done). Besides, have you ever lived in New York? I have and I will tell you, yes there are beaches, but I do not fancy water temps barely reaching 75 in the height of summer with trash occasionally making an appearance (yes, it has gotten a lot better over the years), there is skiing nearby (I never said there wasn't there), and really, why would anyone from NYC want to go to Philadelphia or the Hamptons (would much prefer hanging out in Cape May or Fire Island)? Again, and I'll go slower this time, Atlanta CITY has every thing that we city dwellers here really require for day-to-day needs. And since it is currently 0106 here in Frankfurt I am too tired to relist my aforementioned points, so I will politely suggest you review them...and this time a bit slower so you don't miss it, ok hon?

Wow, was that a little bit of Southern 'smile-in-your-face-but-really-want-to say-other-things' popping out? My goodness. :)

[BTinSF]

The biggest metros

Here are the nation's largest metropolitan areas — regions centered on one or more cities of at least 50,000 people.

Metro area 2000 pop. 2006 pop. Pct. chg. Metro area 2000 pop. 2006 pop. Pct. chg.

New York 18,323,382 18,818,536 2.7% Boston 4,392,340 4,455,217 1.4%

Los Angeles 12,365,619 12,950,129 4.7% San Francisco-Oakland 4,123,742 4,180,027 1.4%

Chicago 9,098,615 9,505,748 4.5% Phoenix 3,251,876 4,039,182 24.2%

Dallas-Fort Worth 5,161,518 6,003,967 16.3% Riverside, Calif. 3,254,821 4,026,135 23.7%

Philadelphia 5,687,141 5,826,742 2.5% Seattle-Tacoma 3,043,885 3,263,497 7.2%

Houston 4,715,402 5,539,949 17.5% Minneapolis-St. Paul 2,968,817 3,175,041 6.9%

Miami-Dade 5,007,988 5,463,857 9.1% San Diego 2,813,833 2,941,454 4.5%

Washington 4,796,180 5,290,400 10.3% St. Louis 2,698,672 2,796,368 3.6%

Atlanta 4,248,012 5,138,223 21.0% Tampa-St. Petersburg 2,396,013 2,697,731 12.6%

Detroit 4,452,557 4,468,966 0.4%

Here we go again. These are so arbitrary. To someone who lives here, "San Francisco-Oakland" means absolutely nothing. Where is the biggest city (population-wise) around the Bay: San Jose. It's in a different metro area according to the government, but when I turn on my NBC Evening News in downtown SF, guess where it comes from: San Jose. A large chunk of commuters working in downtown SF live in bedroom towns on the peninsula--not part of "San Francisco-Oakland". Much of the business conducted in San Francisco highrises is dependent on Silicon Valley: different metro. BART is planning to extend itself to San Jose and CalTrain already goes there: Where else does commuter rail cover two distinct metros? A proper Bay Area metro would have something like 5.5 million I think and fall somewhere among Philadelphia, Houston and Miami.

By the way, regarding Atlanta's weather: The best part of it, really, is the pleasure it gives me when I turn on my TV in August, windows open and the temp a pleasant 70 or so, and watch the talking head bable on about the latest east coast heat wave (which, with global warming and all, will likely get more frequent).

[LA21st]

Yes, and also the growth in government contractors. Suburban MD has very strong growth and suburban VA is even stronger. Loudon County, VA was practically rural 10 years ago and now is typical sprawling exurbia.

I like the MD suburbs but I generally dislike the VA suburbs. The rate of growth has (IMO) contributed to a drop in the quality of life in places like Fairfax County, VA. Traffic in Northern VA seems worse than even in LA and the quality of the growth in VA seems to lag that of MD.

Sadly, I have to agree with NOVA. Reston is my hometown, but its Fairfax County that seems to get more forgotten every time I go back. Fairfax County is far different than the Fairfax County 10 years ago, and not in a good way. Its just aging BADLY.
Annandale, Herndon, Baileys Crossroads, Falls Church have grimy (for the suburbs) commerical districts. To be blunt, they really look like hell.
Same goes for parts of Arlington, Alexandria and Manassas (the most God awful suburb on the planet). Trash is more visible than in downtown Chicago or its surrounding neighborhoods. How is that possible?
I always think to myself "What the hell happened here?"

[BTinSF]

^^^I grew up in Silver Spring, MD in the 50's and early 60's. Talk about looking like hell. I hardly recognize the place and it sure isn't anywhere I'd want to live. I think a lot of Washington's inner suburbs--THE suburbs of the 60's--are considerably the worse for wear as commuting to Hagerstown and even West Virginia became possible (and people now do it).

[BnaBreaker]

Thanks galaca. It's funny how people here are quick to not read everything that someone posts. Not a very good conversational trait.

What I intended to demonstrate was that for all my daily needs, Atlanta CITY has it all for me and for many of us who choose to make it home. If I need to travel (and I presume you yourself like to take little weekend jaunts from time to time?) I don't have far to go. In fact, I am writing this from my hotel room here in Frankfurt, Germany (travelling here courtesy of taking MARTA 25 minutes from Edgewood/Candler Park to ATL and then Delta non-stop to FRA). As far as having an interest in the dynamics of cities? Please, talk to me after you've completed some of the upper level courses in City Planning at Georgia Tech (which I've done). Besides, have you ever lived in New York? I have and I will tell you, yes there are beaches, but I do not fancy water temps barely reaching 75 in the height of summer with trash occasionally making an appearance (yes, it has gotten a lot better over the years), there is skiing nearby (I never said there wasn't there), and really, why would anyone from NYC want to go to Philadelphia or the Hamptons (would much prefer hanging out in Cape May or Fire Island)? Again, and I'll go slower this time, Atlanta CITY has every thing that we city dwellers here really require for day-to-day needs. And since it is currently 0106 here in Frankfurt I am too tired to relist my aforementioned points, so I will politely suggest you review them...and this time a bit slower so you don't miss it, ok hon?

Wow, was that a little bit of Southern 'smile-in-your-face-but-really-want-to say-other-things' popping out? My goodness. :)

I read your entire post my friend. If I took something out of context, then that is my bad, but you were the one that said some of the reasons you like living there is it's proximity to skiing and the fact that you can 'get gas at $2.37 then go have a margarita for five bucks' (among other things). You act like I made up the idea that you prefer Atlanta primarily because of the cost of living, it's proximity to other stuff, and the weather. Few, if any, of the eight things you listed have anything to do with what the bricks and mortar, physical city of Atlanta itself. I'm not saying that is bad, but i'm saying if you want to compare the weather of New York to the weather of Atlanta, then fine, but the city has no part in that discussion.

In anycase, my point is this: if you like Atlanta better than any of the cities you listed, then by all means that is fine by me. What I am confused about is the fact that most, if not all the qualities you listed as reasons you prefer Atlanta are qualities that Atlanta, by most accounts, falls behind the other three cities in. I'm not saying this makes Atlanta bad, i'm just saying it makes me not understand your reasoning. I'll go through point by point just to make it clear as to what I mean. I'll put my comments in bold to set them apart.

-------------------------------------------

Originally Posted by GTviajero81
I have lived in Los Angeles, New York City, Paris, and now Atlanta. And my favourite out of the three? Atlanta, hands down. Why are people moving here in droves, as the latest Census report has shown? Because we have almost everything needed, and if it's not here you can get it rather quickly. Let's look at it:

1) Cool winters, with a few days to make you feel sorry for our fellow Northern countrymen. I relish the idea that I can be in Fargo with a lovely high of -8 in late February and get to Atlanta with temps hovering in the upper 60s (or even 91 degrees about 3 weeks ago in ATL).

I am no fan of the snow, but NYC winters really aren't that bad, Paris winters are nothing, and LA winters are even more mild than Atlanta winters.

2) Long summers. I can go hang out with friends at the lakes around the State or enjoy nights out grilling from early March to early November. Awesome!

Yes, that is nice, I agree. But come on, LA summers are even longer, and you make it sound as if Paris and NYC are in Siberia. Are they really that bad?

3) Beaches. I know most of you all are like, "WHAT?!?" But it's true. The closest beach would be Tybee Island outside Savannah, about a 4 hours drive. Pensacola is 4.5 to 5 hours away, Tampa is 6, Naples about 7 and change. Going to the beach for us in Atlanta is a nice little weekend getaway. If you can afford to fly there, then SAV becomes 40 mins, PNS becomes 55 mins, and Tampa just about one hour. Awesome!

As you well know, there are many beaches actually IN the city of LA and NYC. Also, some of the best beaches in the world are much closer to each of those three cities than tybee island is to atlanta.

4) Skiing. "WHAT?!?!" Believe it or not we do have skiing in the South. North GA mountains is about 1.5 hours way and N.C. is 2 to 2.5. Again, totally doable in a day, but great for a short weekend trip.

Similar to the point about the beaches, there is actual world class skiing within a two hour drive (or closer) to each of the cities Atlanta apparently has the advantage on in this category.

5) Jobs. You hardly ever hear anyone in Atlanta complaining of not being able to find a job. Jobs are easy to come by here. In any level. And with so many institutes of higher education in the Metro area? Gosh, it's so easy to earn an MBA or Master's Degree here on your own time.

Come on, we're not talking about Detroit or Scranton here. Nobody would ever have a problem finding a job in any of the three cities you listed as long as they were adequately qualified for the position they are going for. And institutes of higher education? You're really saying that Atlanta has better and more numerous institutes of higher eduaction than New York, Los Angeles, and Paris?

6) Housing Costs. So what it's cheaper to live here? Is it somehow better to pay out the arse for housing? It is still so cool to know that one can get a condo at Twelve Centennial Park (Downtown Atlanta) starting at US$190K (those might have sold out already). People complain that we are materialistic here in Atlanta --- it may because we have more disposable money for luxury items and for fun!

This is one category that i'll give you. There is cheaper living there, obviously. In some aspects that could definitely be a plus. If it were me personally though, i'd prefer to pay the extra cost for the chance to live within close proximity of the world class amenities that New York, Los Angeles, and Paris offer. That's just me though. I'm not saying that Atlanta doesn't offer some world-class amenities, but, well, you get what i'm saying.

7) Airport. I can fly to five out of the seven continents non-stop. And take the subway there. And only take 15 minutes from downtown with the train station RIGHT in the airport. Not too many other places can claim that (with the exception of O'Hare, but that is a 45 min trip from the Loop, and DCA is not International).

The numerous airports in the Los Angeles, New York, and Paris areas offer a far wider range of international destinations than Hartsfield does. And while I agree that it is somewhat irritating that LAX, JFK, and CDG don't have subway stations IN the airport itself, there is something that should be noted. CDG has an RER hub in the airport, and LAX and JFK both have subway stations just a five minute shuttle ride away. Either way, personally it's not something i'd move to another city over.

8) Cost of living. You folks up North seem to enjoy paying such high prices for gasoline. And groceries. And entertainment. I love that I can pay (as of today) 2.37 for petrol and enjoy a pitcher of margaritas on an outdoor patio in April for 5 bucks.

The majority of neighborhoods in New York, Paris, and even Los Angeles are built in a way that makes it not just possible, but easy to live without a car or then, by default, the worry over gas prices. So that throws that out the window. And it sounds as though you're saying that cheap liquor and outdoor patios are things only found in Atlanta. I know that probably wasn't your point, but I don't get really get this point myself.

So you see there are many reasons why people move here. I wish folks would also differentiate between the Atlanta suburbs and the city itself. Living in the city I can get to anything I really want with our public trans. We have everything that is in the suburbs now. I can't tell you the last time that I really had to either drive or take the train outside of our Perimeter to buy anything. Yeah, if I wanted to go to buy guns for hunting then yes, but since I could not even tell you the start of any of the hunting seasons then I obviously have no need to go to any of these type of outdoor stores.

Again, that is all fine and good. I'm glad Atlanta is beginning to build up it's inner city. However, if we're comparing Atlanta with cities like Paris and New York in the context of mass transit, the ability to get around without a car, and the proximity of amenities, then how does Atlanta come out on top there in your personal comparison?



And driving in rain is WAY more preferable to driving in snow. Most folks may not be able to drive well in the snow down here, but we can sure drive the heck out of rain. Thunderstorms? Bring 'em on! We'll still be screaming down the freeways at 70mph (with a few folks messing it up for the rest of us).

Here is something for locals. Don't you also love how when someone let's you get in front of them in traffic or turn in front of them how we wave to acknowledge them? I sure as heck didn't learn to do that in driving school back in NYC.

In New York, Paris, and many parts of Los Angeles, you don't drive at all.

----------------------------------------------------------

So again, i'm not trying to start anything and if Atlanta is your preference then that is fine by me. These are all nice things of course, and all make the Atlanta area an attractive place to move to, but I don't understand the line of logic you went through to determine in your mind that Atlanta is better in these categories than the three cities you mentioned. I like Atlanta. I've spent many a childhood summer there. I'm not trying to say it's terrible, or start any competition of any kind. That isn't my intention. I'm just confused about the logic you used when deciding you preferred Atlanta to the three cities you are comparing it to. To me, saying "I prefer Atlanta to Paris because of all the international destinations at Hartsfield" is kind of like saying "I prefer the Mustang to the Ferrari Enzo because of how fast the Mustang is." Know what I mean? :)

[PhillyRising]

Don't YOU hate the South?



It's a nice place to visit....but as you think living down there is better for you...I think living up here is better for me. It's all about preferences and what is most important to both of us.

[Crawford]

^^^I grew up in Silver Spring, MD in the 50's and early 60's. Talk about looking like hell. I hardly recognize the place and it sure isn't anywhere I'd want to live. I think a lot of Washington's inner suburbs--THE suburbs of the 60's--are considerably the worse for wear as commuting to Hagerstown and even West Virginia became possible (and people now do it).

Silver Spring is strange in that it is booming by the Metro stop but looks really bedraggled (borderline slumlike) in some of the adjacent neighborhoods to the east. It's still very nice heading west from Silver Spring towards Bethesda.

I have a friend who lives on the fringes of downtown near the Safeway, and the nearby residental blocks look terrible. Many of the houses are rentals and are stuffed with newcomers to this country. There's also some semi-ghettoish areas heading towards Takoma Park.

At the same time Silver Spring center is booming and quite expensive, though rather unattractive.

I think DC has the Sunbelt issue of extremely fast growth leading to yesterday's suburbs becoming today's slums. It happens everywhere in America but it occurs very quickly in the Sunbelt. In Phoenix, some of the West Side neighborhoods under construction right now are almost certain to be slumlike in 15 years or so.

[PhillyRising]

. Besides, have you ever lived in New York? I have and I will tell you, yes there are beaches, but I do not fancy water temps barely reaching 75 in the height of summer with trash occasionally making an appearance (yes, it has gotten a lot better over the years), there is skiing nearby (I never said there wasn't there), and really, why would anyone from NYC want to go to Philadelphia or the Hamptons (would much prefer hanging out in Cape May or Fire Island)?

Well guess what...many New Yorkers DO come down to visit Philadelphia...some even stay for good. Imagine that!

[LA21st]

Silver Spring is strange in that it is booming by the Metro stop but looks really bedraggled (borderline slumlike) in some of the adjacent neighborhoods to the east. It's still very nice heading west from Silver Spring towards Bethesda.

I have a friend who lives on the fringes of downtown near the Safeway, and the nearby residental blocks look terrible. Many of the houses are rentals and are stuffed with newcomers to this country. There's also some semi-ghettoish areas heading towards Takoma Park.

At the same time Silver Spring center is booming and quite expensive, though rather unattractive.

I think DC has the Sunbelt issue of extremely fast growth leading to yesterday's suburbs becoming today's slums. It happens everywhere in America but it occurs very quickly in the Sunbelt. In Phoenix, some of the West Side neighborhoods under construction right now are almost certain to be slumlike in 15 years or so.

Older, Eastern Fairfax County has those depressing apartment blocks, many of them with gang problems. I honestly dont see this area coming around for a long time and going the way of some of LA's tougher, older suburban areas.

[Front_Range_Guy]

I can sum up my preference for colder climates with one word. Bugs.

Already this spring I've had death-defying standoffs with a fly that I thought might be a bee and a spider that looked menacing. Armed with hair spray and a fly swatter, I was able to fend off of my attackers... needless to say bugs that can bite, pinch, or sting... or just look ugly scare the crap out of me. I'd have a heart attack if I lived in a warm climate with huge spiders and such...

I also happen to prefer cold weather lol... if anything, I'll probably move north in my life.

[antinimby]

I dont think that Climate has much to do with it, for example DC grew faster than Miami or LA. And both Miami and LA had very negative domestic migration patterns. Its more people leaving expensive cities for sprawly cheap cities like Atlanta, Houston & Dallas.

What do the fast growing metros (Pheonix, Atlanta, Houston, Tampa, & Dallas) all have in common? They are cheap for housing compared to other large metros. Its no mystery here folks...You hit the nail right on the head. It's all about affordability.

If Atlanta or those other cities became expensive, it wouldn't grow nearly as fast, if at all.

[SteveD]

You hit the nail right on the head. It's all about affordability.

If Atlanta or those other cities became expensive, it wouldn't grow nearly as fast, if at all.

Cheap housing compared to the other large metros and, in spite of all of the negative comments in here to the contrary, warm climate.

[antinimby]

Actually, if you want to talk about what are the biggest factors then climate would fall well below the economy.

No one beats San Diego in the weather department, but clearly it's not growing as fast as it should if it was just about nice weather.

[SoFla951]

Yes Atlanta is booming. Alot of people I know are thinking about moving up there......it's not that they like Atlanta its just that its too expensive in South Florida and they say they're basically going to Atlanta for the cheap housing. I was in Atlanta this summer and let me tell you the heat there is just unbearalbe, at least in florida you have the breeze off the ocean. I would never want to live there, but I guess If I couldn't afford to live down here I would have to move there If I still wanted to be somewhat close to family in Florida. The reason places are as expensive as they are is because they are desirable...which is why places like NY, LA, SF and Boston are as expensive as they are.

[SteveD]

Actually, if you want to talk about what are the biggest factors then climate would fall well below the economy.

No one beats San Diego in the weather department, but clearly it's not growing as fast as it should if it was just about nice weather.

Oh absolutely!...cheap housing, warm climate, favorable economy...in other words, plenty of reasons why the big sunbelt metropolises are growing like crazy.

[SteveD]

Yes Atlanta is booming. Alot of people I know are thinking about moving up there......it's not that they like Atlanta its just that its too expensive in South Florida and they say they're basically going to Atlanta for the cheap housing. I was in Atlanta this summer and let me tell you the heat there is just unbearalbe, at least in florida you have the breeze off the ocean. I would never want to live there, but I guess If I couldn't afford to live down here I would have to move there If I still wanted to be somewhat close to family in Florida. The reason places are as expensive as they are is because they are desirable...which is why places like NY, LA, SF and Boston are as expensive as they are.

That ocean breeze stops a couple miles on shore. Atlanta is in the Piedmont region of the Appalachian Mountains, with an average elevation of approximately 1,000 ft, and, as a result, it has a significantly "cooler" summer than many other areas of the deep south. Atlanta summers are far more desirable than most (not all) of Florida, since it's cooler!

[BTinSF]

Silver Spring is strange . . . . I have a friend who lives on the fringes of downtown near the Safeway, and the nearby residental blocks look terrible.

The very concept of "downtown Silver Spring" is quite foreign to me (and I'm not sure where the Safeway would now be). We lived up the hill from Sligo Creek Park off a street called Dennis Ave.--little 3-bedroom, 1 bath split level houses. Anyway, the last member of my family--my sister--is now outta there; she moved to Ormond Beach, FL where my mom also lives.

[BTinSF]

Actually, if you want to talk about what are the biggest factors then climate would fall well below the economy.

No one beats San Diego in the weather department, but clearly it's not growing as fast as it should if it was just about nice weather.

San Diego has the most perfect weather on earth, but only in a narrow zone near the water. That's true up and down the CA coast but especially in San Diego--you don't have to go far inland to be in the Mojave and it's hot as blazes in the summer. Anyway, I don't think there's much of the temperate coastal land left in SD. It can grow by getting denser, but for many people it's not the same if they can't have their sprawly house and yard and garden (preferably with a view of the Pacific) and to get all that in SD now you've got to be pretty rich.

[BTinSF]

That ocean breeze stops a couple miles on shore. Atlanta is in the Piedmont region of the Appalachian Mountains, with an average elevation of approximately 1,000 ft, and, as a result, it has a significantly "cooler" summer than many other areas of the deep south. Atlanta summers are far more desirable than most (not all) of Florida, since it's cooler!

I challenge that. I grew up in Washington DC and lived for 4 years in Durham, NC which also has a little elevation. Then I moved to Florida: first Gainesville, then Orlando and Ormond Beach. Of them all, Washington has the worst climate. But Florida, even inland in Orlando and Gainesville, was not as hot or oppressive as up in the "deep south" states not surrounded by water. Ormond, in fact, rarely got out of the 80's on summer days. Orlando and Gainesville often did--maybe 92 but they didn't seem as bad as the Carolinas and Georgia to me (and most days there were afternoon thinder storms to cool things off).

Anyway, in SF we complain of a heat wave when it gets over 70. That's my kind of place.

[brickell]

...and won't those places eventually decline and be left behind? At the rate we're going through cities and throwing them away the next boomtowns will be in Nebraska.

Eventually. But I'm not the one saying anybody is going to "rise again".

[SteveD]

I challenge that. I grew up in Washington DC and lived for 4 years in Durham, NC which also has a little elevation. Then I moved to Florida: first Gainesville, then Orlando and Ormond Beach. Of them all, Washington has the worst climate. But Florida, even inland in Orlando and Gainesville, was not as hot or oppressive as up in the "deep south" states not surrounded by water. Ormond, in fact, rarely got out of the 80's on summer days. Orlando and Gainesville often did--maybe 92 but they didn't seem as bad as the Carolinas and Georgia to me (and most days there were afternoon thinder storms to cool things off).

Anyway, in SF we complain of a heat wave when it gets over 70. That's my kind of place.


BT, it's not really something that can be "challenged". It's not my opinion, I'm talking climate stats. I didn't say "Georgia", I said "Atlanta", which, as I pointed out, is in the Piedmont of the Appalachians (most of Georgia is not). Ironically, you picked two Florida locales, Orlando and Gainesville, which have far more stifling summers than Atlanta. You're missing the critical distinction of Atlanta's elevation, which moderates its climate relative to most (not all) of the rest of the deep south. On top of that, the humidity of Orlando and Gainesville is higher than that of Atlanta.

Weather stats: Daily average highs, Jun, Jul, Aug, Sept

Orlando: 91/92/92/90
Gainesille FL 90/91/90/87
Atlanta 87/89/88/82

[danwxman]

To whoever said they love that it's in the upper 60s in February in Atlanta. Uh, the average high is 57. I'm sure it gets into the upper 60s occaisonally, but it's not like that the whole month. The average high is 87 in June, 89 in July, and 88 in August. That's pretty hot if you ask me, and those are higher averages then any city in the Northeast.

Also, for those of you who will understand this, the average dewpoint (which measures humidity) is lower in the Northeast then Atlanta. For example, the average dewpoint in June in Atlanta is 65-70 (borderline oppressive), while in New York it's 55-60 (comfortable).

Hearing about a big east coast heat wave is a major news story because it only happens a couple times a year, while in the South it's just that damn hot and humid all summer long.

[holladay]

Wow, this whole thread has practically revolved around the issue of climate. It's only one factor, people. The real issues seem to be getting lost in all the hullabaloo about humidity and winter lows. Thinking about all the growth in Atlanta I'm reminded of the recent thread centered on National Geographic's piece about Orlando. The Megachurching, Francising, McMansioning, Theme-Parking of America... That is really closer to hitting the bases for why Atlanta is at the forefront of America's growth here in 2007.

Face it, Atlanta's growth is merely emblamatic of who we are and where we are going in America. Atlanta is undergoing immense shifts in culture and urban form right now. Not only is it consuming more land through exurban development than probably every other city in America (except maybe Phoenix), it is also undergoing a really strange intown boom that is remaking the central city through a rather fragmented, disjointed process of tower-making and condo-blitzing. Plus, Atlanta is also a hub for minorities and immigrants. It's 60s strip malls are being carved up into bazaars, market-stalls, import-export shops, dim-sum restaurants, and hosts of other immigrant businesses. It also has the largest black middle-class of any city in America. Furthermore, Atlanta is deeply entrenched in Red-State territory, which since 1980 has been the political center of the US. Virtually EVERYTHING happening in Atlanta is being mutated and exported throughout America. In a lot of ways it's ahead of every other Sunbelt city, including Dallas and Houston, in presenting a new model for the 21st century. This is not a value judgment (because frankly I am growing less-and-less inclined to make those the more I think about these issues since 'moralizing' often clouds perspective). This is merely a call to everyone (even irritating Atlanta boosters who frankly also fail to really 'get' their city) to wake up and realize that, like it or not, Atlanta is a crucial city (perhaps the MOST crucial city in our era) to understand if you care at all about where America is headed. What's happening today in Atlanta is going to be happening in your city tomorrow. It's almost certainty.

[SteveD]

:previous: Well, I won't argue with any of that, which makes Atlanta, with all of its warts and flaws, a very exciting place to live.

[antinimby]

BT, it's not really something that can be "challenged". It's not my opinion, I'm talking climate stats. I didn't say "Georgia", I said "Atlanta", which, as I pointed out, is in the Piedmont of the Appalachians (most of Georgia is not). Ironically, you picked two Florida locales, Orlando and Gainesville, which have far more stifling summers than Atlanta. You're missing the critical distinction of Atlanta's elevation, which moderates its climate relative to most (not all) of the rest of the deep south. On top of that, the humidity of Orlando and Gainesville is higher than that of Atlanta.

Weather stats: Daily average highs, Jun, Jul, Aug, Sept

Orlando: 91/92/92/90
Gainesille FL 90/91/90/87
Atlanta 87/89/88/82Interesting, is that why it's got the nickname "hot-lanta?" :haha:

[SteveD]

Interesting, is that why it's got the nickname "hot-lanta?" :haha:

:haha: well, the summers aren't cold!

[Stratosphere 2020]

Interesting, is that why it's got the nickname "hot-lanta?" :haha:


I guess, because many people speak about Atlanta and what to move there, so the place is hot, in terms of demand ( Homes, businesses and such).

[Master Shake]

Look, lets give credit where credit is due. Atlanta, Houston, Dallas are the Cities that are making things happen in America today. There is an intrinsic bias on this website against the Sunbelt up and comers,but the fact is they have alot to teach rest of the country. We should ask what these cities are doing right and what other cities like New York, yes even New York, and Detroit can do to compete.

Its not just about weather, although it certainly is a factor. I have to say though, Atlanta's success is not based on its beaches or skiiing. Lets just be honest here.

Atlanta is America's City of the moment because its a place of incredible opportunity. Low taxes, low government regulation and a can do attitude is what makes this possible. Jobs, and by that I mean high end jobs, in finance, law and engineering are what make Atlanta great. Young college graduates are flooding to these cities for a reason. The Southern conservative attitude towards limited govenment allows this to happen. Cheap housing is another factor. The cheaper housing is due in part to less government regulation of land use.

Yes sprawling equals growth and prosperity, and as long as metros like SF and NYC reject sprawl, they will be at the bottom of any growth list. I am not saying the Sprawl is the answer, just look at Detroit and Buffalo, but its part of the answer. Much of the population, especially the mobile educated portion, want a certain suburban lifestyle. Metros like New York and SF are not growing fast enough to provide the affluent suburban lifeestyle of the upper middle management crowd. These metros are great if you are a millionaire or if you are 22 years old, but otherwise not so much.

High density developments may help address some of the housing costs, but the vast majority of Americans want the suburban lifestyle.

Glad to see Chicago is still booming with a rate twice the growth rate of New York, although I believe most of the growth is in exurban sprawl.

[dimondpark]

Coming from The California Coast, I must say that to me, anywhere away from this coast is hot and very uncomfortable in the summertime, be it NYC or Atlanta or Florida or Arizona. Humidity is nasty and sticky and dry heat(which from SF requires nothing more then a 30-mile drive east) feels like your in an oven. Now Ive lived in other places with hot weather, but I couldnt help in the summertime in these other places recall how cool and beautiful the weather must be back home.

[liat91]

If you read all the posts in this thread and find a compromise.
Fastest growing metros
1. Cheaper
2. Warmer
3. Booming Economy due to:
a. cheap business costs
b. lots of young talented labor due to factors 1,2 and 3
c. Conservative pro-business politics
4. Newer cities: people like new things (all sparkly and shiny and stuff)
5. Natural Social forces causing an infill of our country.

p.s. once the sunbelt matures, which I believe will come soon, our country is
settled. NO MORE PEOPLE!!!! We need a few open spaces left.

[Visiteur]

I remember a newspaper article up here a few months ago that said that a recent study at Columbia suggested that the upstate NY climate would be silmilar to the Georgian climate in 50 years if we continue to heat up at the current rate.

Nobody complained.

No word about the South though. I don't imagine if the results of that study ended up playing out, it would be much fun for the SE U.S.

[Master Shake]

p.s. once the sunbelt matures, which I believe will come soon, our country is
settled. NO MORE PEOPLE!!!! We need a few open spaces left.[/QUOTE]

Hmmm...I don't think rational proposals to limit America's uncontrolled immigration is allowed on this website.

[BTinSF]

Metros like New York and SF are not growing fast enough to provide the affluent suburban lifeestyle of the upper middle management crowd. These metros are great if you are a millionaire or if you are 22 years old, but otherwise not so much.

High density developments may help address some of the housing costs, but the vast majority of Americans want the suburban lifestyle.



You have to be joking. The affluent upper middle management crowd invented most of San Francisco's suburbs and still inhabits them. The SF metro isn't growing, allegedly, because it has spread geographically so far that the areas that are growing don't get counted. The "official" SF-Oakland metro includes Alameda, Contra Costa, SF, San Mateo and Marin Counties. These counties are all pretty much built out. Growth is pretty much a matter of increasing density by building multi-family housing where once was single family. The growth (i.e. "sprawl") is taking place in Sonoma, Napa, Solano and San Joaquin counties. And then there's Santa Clara and Santa Cruz counties which I have previously pointed out are in just about every functional way part of the same metro area as SF-Oakland (soon, the "San Francisco 49ers" may well be playing in Santa Clara).

And the city is not just for youth and millionaires. It's becoming also a place for empty-nesters and, of course, in the Bay Area, especially childless couples (gay and straight).

[austin356]

Though I like good climates why is the talk on here so focused on such?

I think many people want to hide the real factors which is the problems created by governments in the slow growth areas.

-High taxes and regulation have negatively affected the north and northeast. The exceptions to this (NYC, BOS, and SF, are in spite of, in which the spite comes because said cities are sooo very favorable to live in, build enviroment wise)

-Housing cost, of which is DIRECTLY attributable to land use policies by governments. If you look you will find that the least regulated market (Houston) is the very cheapest in the nation, while the most regulated market (SF) is the most expensive. There is a direct correlation between government intervention in land use and housing cost.

-Middle class "paradise" that has formed in southern suburbia. A brand new big house and big yard for less than 200k.


Even though I admit that the above factors I mentioned, which are problems (or solutions to some ppl) can directly attributed to the governments, there really is not that massive of a fundamental difference between even the policies of NY and Texas. The tax burden is not extremely higher and the regulatory regime, though more stringent, is not insanely so. But, there is a difference, and the last few decades show that even same changes in government can have exponentially greater effects on results (aka the market is more powerful than even I thought)



We can all see the effects, unless we are too close minded to even give the situation a unbiased analyzation. The real debate should be like this:

-Are the sideeffects of cheap, middle class housing worth the negative ramifications? (this is subjective at its very core).

[edluva]

I think it's pretty amazing, and scary, that LA-Santa Anta-Riverside, a "metro" of 15 million, grew by about 1.3 million. That's over 8%. Pretty crazy for a metro of its size.

Master Shake - What Houston, Atlanta, and other sunbelters are doing is not spectacular. In fact, it's not realy that they're doing anything at all. The sunbelters are just the frontier to american capitalism's manifest destiny. Cheap land, cheap taxes, cheap energy, and lax regulation have always been our economy's nectar. Nothing mysterious in that.

What impresses me more are cities in europe/japan and other old cities which appear to maintain a relatively modest but constant growth despite the lack of cheapness and spatial bounty. Such cities apear to have moved beyond relying on the bounty of open space and other exhaustible natural resources for growth. though I'd have to temper this admiration with the fact that in truth, even older cities feed off sprawl-belters such as Atlanta and Houston for their growth. In the end, the fact is that we're economically linked. Japan's society and economy, for all it's professed urbanism and environmentalism, relies heavily on ecologically-inefficient american growth for revenue. so it all comes full circle. Noone's blameless.

Which brings me to attack the self-righteousness of urbanists, urbanists including myself at times. Slogans such as "smart growth" are bullsh!t, as long as such growth continues to rely on the current mode of capitalism. Sustainability and capitalism are oxymorons because capitalism is inherently unsustainable. And this is because capitalism, by its very nature, requires a constant state of growth and environmental consumption to survive. It can never acheive a level of homeostasis that the concept of sustainability entails. Capitalism's a one-eyed beast bent on securing it's own survival, and we are it's pawns. One thing I've realized is that it really is all bullsh!t. We're just all too distracted by slogans to realize it.

Okay, I've drunk enough for tonite.

[shanthemanatl]

I find it hysterical that people equate snow storms worse than living under the threat of hurricanes.(South Atlantic States..Florida...Gulf Coast) and tornados (how many times do you hears deaths from them in the south...as opposed to the north?). I've said it before and I'll say it again....people don't wind up in FEMA trailers after a Nor'easter. The snow falls...it gets plowed and shoveled...it melts...no harm...no foul. I'm sure people in New Orleans and the Gulf Coast would have much rather dug out from a blizzard than have their towns wiped out by a hurricane.

BTW....it's easier to stay warm than it is to cool off.

I hope most SunBelt boosters don't think that this rapid growth will last forever. As has been the history of this country...things change and people find a new place to migrate to...to which at some point we'll come full circle and Detroit and Buffalo will be the "It" places to be....

You also don't hear about 500 people dying in the South during a heat wave, unlike what happened in Chicago several years back.

And I don't know what you consider to be "the North", but tornadoes are just as prevalent north of the Ohio River as they are south of it.

[atlantaguy]

As someone who moved here from Orlando, I can honestly say the summers here are a lot more tolerable than the muggy heat down there. It's all about the elevation. I was in Orlando last July, and the first day it was actually hard to breathe because of the stiffling humidity.

It's also not uncommon to get a nice little wave of 70's as late as June here.

[PhillyRising]

You also don't hear about 500 people dying in the South during a heat wave, unlike what happened in Chicago several years back.

And I don't know what you consider to be "the North", but tornadoes are just as prevalent north of the Ohio River as they are south of it.

I know...I know...Atlanta is perfect....:rolleyes:

[DallasTexan]

When did he say that? Everything that he stated was factual. I remember growing up in Cincinnati and having to duck and cover in school during tornado warnings.

[tdawg]

^^^ I also moved from Orlando to Atlanta. Orlando is AWFUL!!! the heat/humidity is so stifling and the afternoon thundershowers every summer day only make it worse.

[Reverberation]

Master Shake - What Houston, Atlanta, and other sunbelters are doing is not spectacular. In fact, it's not realy that they're doing anything at all. The sunbelters are just the frontier to american capitalism's manifest destiny. Cheap land, cheap taxes, cheap energy, and lax regulation have always been our economy's nectar. Nothing mysterious in that.


I agree.
I think that it is all about money. The low cost of living and strong job growth make this area appealing to people who are looking to settle down. Families can live comfortably in a spacious home for a low price.

People who want to save money can do so. It is cheap to start up a business. 800,000+ in six years means more consumers and more businesses starting up to serve them. These businesses need employees and then hire local people meaning job growth.

But these cities have made themselves appealing to business. Big airports, tax incentives, and good local higher education attract companies. It is a favorable place to do business and as a result people move there to make money.

[Mr Roboto]

I liken it all to the general movement of people from cities to the suburbs; except the movement is from older cities to newer, more suburban ones. Just on a larger scale, but its the same basic principal as far as Im concerned, and involves the same mentality. Bigger and wider is better. And people do like newer stuff.

[Master Shake]

I just want the discussion to focus on the economic and regulation factors that are making these cities so successful. Its not just abou the weather. The number of finance related companies that have moved to the Atlanta metro and other sun belters is astounding. They must be doing something right.

These cities are great places that provide the housing and lifestyle that most Americans desire. This should be recognized.

[PhillyRising]

When did he say that? Everything that he stated was factual. I remember growing up in Cincinnati and having to duck and cover in school during tornado warnings.

I've never seen a twister in my life. Other than that one fluke outbreak in Western PA in the 1980's....how many times have you ever heard about a tornado that caused the level of damage in PA that is commonly seen in tornado alley and the southeast? It's just not a common occurance. But hey...it snows here a few times a year and it gets cold for a few months so I live in hell........:rolleyes:

[EastSideHBG]

I've never seen a twister in my life. Other than that one fluke outbreak in Western PA in the 1980's....how many times have you ever heard about a tornado that caused the level of damage in PA that is commonly seen in tornado alley and the southeast? It's just not a common occurance. But hey...it snows here a few times a year and it gets cold for a few months so I live in hell........:rolleyes:
What about South Central PA, though, Mike? It is a fairly common occurrence there. Campbelltown (just outside of Hershey) was completely leveled a few years ago. Halifax (north of HBG) just had one a few months ago (Oct. I think it was) that caused serious widespread damage. I lived just outside of the city limits for the later years of my life, and I actually SAW 2 tornadoes in those years. If I take into account all of the confirmed ones we had in my immediate area that I didn't see, then it is easily 5+.

The valley traps lots of weather systems (and creates new ones) and then immediately sends those systems across flatter areas where they can gain energy and wreak havoc. Adams, Dauphin, Cumberland, Lancaster, Lebanon, etc., Counties can be quite active tornado areas. South Eastern PA is not effected as much because by the time it reaches those counties, a lot (if not all) of the energy has been dumped in SC PA.

[VivaLFuego]

As far as compared to Chicago, I'd say much more moderate climate and coastal influence.

DC in July/August is unbearably unpleasant, I'd hesitate to call it a more moderate climate.

As far as I'm concerned, Chicago summer weather is perfect enough taht I don't have a desire to get out. Yeah I hated this February when it was under 10F for 2 weeks straight, but it never once made me thinking about moving, since I know how awesome this spring and summer will be.

[sprtsluvr8]

I've never seen a tornado either...and I've lived in N.C. or Atlanta most of my life. They are very infrequent, and it seems the chances of being affected by one are slim to none.

[VivaLFuego]

BTW....it's easier to stay warm than it is to cool off.

Amen! You can always put on more clothes, but there's a limit to what you can take off, and sometimes even that's not enough.

[brickell]

Anybody want to explain the difference between "the north" and Philadelphia to PhillyNation? Anybody want to show him pictures of Xena, Ohio or the aftermath of Hurricane Carol?

[Evergrey]

wow... this thread has jumped the shark

[DallasTexan]

I've never seen a twister in my life. Other than that one fluke outbreak in Western PA in the 1980's....how many times have you ever heard about a tornado that caused the level of damage in PA that is commonly seen in tornado alley and the southeast? It's just not a common occurance. But hey...it snows here a few times a year and it gets cold for a few months so I live in hell........:rolleyes:

Again, I'll ask you... when has anyone said that you live in hell in this thread?

Please, show us.

[Capsule F]

Anybody want to explain the difference between "the north" and Philadelphia to PhillyNation? Anybody want to show him pictures of Xena, Ohio or the aftermath of Hurricane Carol?

Anyone wanna show you pics of what hurricane Katrina did to New Orleans? We may get some hurricane activity but if you are insinuating that they are anywhere as damaging as to what the south receives you are ridiculous.

[PhillyRising]

Again, I'll ask you... when has anyone said that you live in hell in this thread?

Please, show us.


It was called sarcasm....

[PhillyRising]

Anybody want to explain the difference between "the north" and Philadelphia to PhillyNation? Anybody want to show him pictures of Xena, Ohio or the aftermath of Hurricane Carol?

I don't live in Ohio. I'm am talking about the Northeast Corridor...WHERE I EFFIN LIVE! You keep bringing up events that happen rarely around here ...where hurricane direct hits and tornado outbreaks happen yearly down there. Why can't you just admit that the south faces more dangers to that kind of weather? I swear some of you down there can never admit to having negatives about where ya live. Everyplace does!