[dirtybird]

Thought I'd start a thread on the topic of the Midtown Mile (I personally don't like the copycat name but I think it's starting to stick :( ):

http://img.coxnewsweb.com/B/01/58/70/image_5270581.jpg
"Among the buildings with a retail presence along the 'Midtown Mile' is the Metropolis at Peachtree and Eighth streets. The mile now includes 230,000 square feet of retail."



'Midtown Mile' takes shape
Developers add retail space

By JULIE B. HAIRSTON
The Atlanta Journal-Constitution

Published on: 04/06/07

Efforts to create a "Midtown Mile" filled with upscale stores, restaurants and services are gaining momentum with developers, who are so encouraged by early discussions they are adding new street-level space to their projects.

With the kickoff last week for residential sales in Viewpoint, Novare's newest condo tower at Peachtree and Sixth streets, the company also announced the addition of another 20,000 square feet of retail space along Sixth. That's beyond the 50,000 square feet along Peachtree included in the original design.

square feet of retail space with six restaurants, a bank and a number of boutique shops. Along the entire mile stretching from the Fox Theatre to the Woodruff Arts Center, the district now includes 230,000 square feet of shopping, services and restaurants.

Conor McNally, Novare's developer for Viewpoint, said his negotiations for space in Midtown are generating widespread interest.

"We can really get an extra bang for the buck by adding an extra 20,000 square feet," he said.

And the new space is being designed with different retailers in mind. Novare is creating two-story spaces and courting upscale chains "similar to something you would find in Lenox [Square] or Phipps [Plaza]."

"From Day One, we've tried to create larger spaces than we've done in the past," McNally said.

Viewpoint also will boast a signature corner front at Sixth and Peachtree for its anchor tenant.

Up the street at Peachtree and 10th, Jamestown Properties is proceeding apace with plans for addition of 20,000 square feet to 999 Peachtree, the office building it purchased at the beginning of this year.

"Over the long term, we just think it's a good place to be," said Matt Bronfman, Jamestown's managing director.

Midtown boosters are brimming with optimism that Atlanta's growth, combined with Peachtree's brand recognition, is proving a powerful lure to national retailers looking to cluster in the next hot location.

David Birnbrey, chairman and chief executive of the Shopping Center Group, which brokers space for retail clients, said Midtown's straight, level trajectory makes it a natural setting for retail development.

"One of the beautiful things about Midtown Atlanta," said Birnbrey, who serves on the Midtown Mile Retail Advisory Committee, "is that it's an almost perfect mall."

But more important is Midtown's explosive growth, providing merchants with a ready market of affluent homeowners just a stroll away.

By 2010, according to a study commissioned by the Midtown Alliance and conducted by Buxton Co., more than 13,000 households will be within walking distance of the Midtown Mile and more than 62,000 office workers will spend their workdays in that zone.

More important, Midtown residents will have a median age of 34.8 and a median income above $80,000 annually. Most will be singles or couples without children.

Court Stockton, who moved his H. Stockton shop from downtown Atlanta to 1180 Peachtree last October, said his sales have increased at least 20 percent.

"We just have a lot more walk-in customers," Stockton said. In addition to area residents, Stockton said he gets a lot of business from nearby offices in Atlanta's intown live-work-play community.

"It reminds me of the downtown of the past," Stockton said.

Although Midtown's retail prospects are rising, a pair of real estate economists said its success is not yet sealed.

"The question is will people come," said Suzanne Mulvee, real estate economist with Property and Portfolio Research in Boston. "I would say yes in Atlanta."

Midtown's goal of adding 1 million square feet of retail over the next five years is ambitious, said Clint Myers, also a real estate economist with Property and Portfolio Research. That is the equivalent of building a major new mall.

But he said demographic research shows growing demand for goods and services in Midtown, and national retailers are taking notice.

"We believe there is demand," Myers said. "The depth of the demand is kind of the question."

As far as Midtown Alliance President Susan Mendheim is concerned, that question is long since settled. As the Midtown Blueprint set out decades ago the contours and vision for a revitalized urban district, the second phase aims to satisfy the retail capacity of a district growing daily in sophisticated residents with lots of discretionary income.

"It's not just density," Mendheim said. "The affluence and education of this group is very high."

Mendheim said Midtown developers are in talks with some upscale retailers that will be new to Midtown, and even some that will be new to the city.

"The developers are negotiating with some really exciting brand names, national and international retailers, some of whom are not even in Atlanta right now," she said.

Plans for improved streetscapes and a streetcar system on Peachtree will further entice retailers looking for the next hot shopping destination. So will planned and existing upscale hotels such as W, Palomar and Four Seasons, which attract well-heeled business and leisure travelers to the district, Mendheim said.

Developers are bullish on the retail/residential mix because it boosts the potential cash flow needed for expensive urban construction, Mendheim added.

"Everybody gets it, and everybody knows what it adds to the project," she said.

But retail birds of a feather flock together.

"What it's really going to take is for a handful of retailers to come in and do really well," said Novare's McNally.

And it starts with the first announcement, said Birnbrey. The quest for retail helps to foster cohesion and a strong sense of camaraderie among the developers with projects in Midtown.

"I think all of these developers have come to the realization that if one developer gets a huge retailer, it's a win for all of them," Birnbrey said.

[smArTaLlone]

Exciting to see things begin to take shape. I did notice that 12th and Midtown is now advertising 300k sf of retail which is double what they originally stated would be contained in the project.

[Trae]

Atlanta is not the only city being discussed in this section (for all of the South). Maybe you should put Atlanta in the title.

[Hybrid0NE]

I've wondered why the city is exclusively courting upscale retail for the "Midtown Mile"? I don't think everyone in that trade area only wants the likes of Jimmy Choo, Versace, etc. when it comes to shopping. Guess Atlantic Station serves that purpose...

[jason21atl]

Being a resident of Midtown, I would much rather see more practical retail than upscale retail. A Crate and Barrel would be great, a nice bookstore, maybe an electornics store like Best Buy, Dean and Deluca, music store, Apple Store, etc. In the smaller retail spots, I'd rather see some places that are more affordable than the stores going to Buckhead.....stuff more along the lines of Club Monaco, Banana Republic, Express, etc. Probably not likely since some of them already have stores at Atlantic Station. Let Buckhead have the expensive boutiques (they already do it and they do it well) and let Midtown be a little more trendy/casual.

[smArTaLlone]

I think you guys are thinking more of exclusive stores rather than "upscale". There are only a few Prada's and Vesace's in the world. An Apple or Crate and Barrel are exactly the kind of stores that'll go into Midtown.

[dirtybird]

Atlanta is the only city being discussed in this section (for all of the South). Maybe you should put Atlanta in the title.

Your right. Sometimes I get a little Atlanta-centric and forget.

I just tried to edit the title but it won't allow it. Anybody know how I can do that?

[dirtybird]

Being a resident of Midtown, I would much rather see more practical retail than upscale retail...In the smaller retail spots, I'd rather see some places that are more affordable than the stores going to Buckhead...

I would too. An Apple store or H&M (hope they don't go to Atlantic Station) would bring in ten times more foot traffic to Midtown than a Gucci or Prada store.

[MidtownMile]

Absolutely, and it would provide a complement. I would sooner see very similar stores to what sits on the actual line of Michigan Ave. in Chicago. BR, Gap, Crate & Barrel, Ann Taylor, etc., mixed with some other upper scale (Ralph Lauren, Hugo Boss, etc.). I think a couple high ends will come in eventually, but I think the pradas, guccis, etc. will go to the Buckhead Avenues section first. Atlanta's retail sector is big enough to support those stores, but Atlanta is not set up for those to be truly in-town stores as they are in NY and LA. It would make more sense in Buckhead for a number of reasons.

[realm0854]

It's a shame that people are wishing for chains to come in and take over Peachtree. I know it isn't likely to expect genuine local entrepreneurship but I kinda get sick of every city having the same retailers. It essentially equates to a suburban mall that just happens to be on a real street.

[sprtsluvr8]

A retail destination needs well known chains to be successful. It's nice to think about having unique, locally owned shops, but in reality they won't draw enough shoppers to stay in business. It would be nice to get a mix of locally owned with national chains. I mean, there's nothing wrong with Banana Republic and Old Navy - I like stores like those. The area has to have stores that will create enough traffic to get people there, then they can all benefit from it.

[realm0854]

Yeah, I know you're right. It's a branded world. Whaddya gonna do?

[mayhem]

A retail destination needs well known chains to be successful. It's nice to think about having unique, locally owned shops, but in reality they won't draw enough shoppers to stay in business.

Little 5 points.
Greenwich village.

It would be nice to get a mix of locally owned with national chains. I mean, there's nothing wrong with Banana Republic and Old Navy - I like stores like those. The area has to have stores that will create enough traffic to get people there, then they can all benefit from it.

Agreed :)

[joey]

Greenwich village.

Central Greenwich Village is mostly restaurants and little grocery stores. Not exactly boutiquey.

Where there is sizable retail there, it's 90% chain stores (Crate and Barrel, Sisley, Best Buy, etc.), especially at its edges along Broadway and 6th Avenue.

SoHo, on the other hand, has a lot of independent boutiques. But, mixed in are plenty of chains.

[mayhem]

Central Greenwich Village is mostly restaurants and little grocery stores. Not exactly boutiquey.

Where there is sizable retail there, it's 90% chain stores (Crate and Barrel, Sisley, Best Buy, etc.), especially at its edges along Broadway and 6th Avenue.

SoHo, on the other hand, has a lot of independent boutiques. But, mixed in are plenty of chains.

From where I have been in the village, it was all independent stores. No one said it had to be boutiques ;)

[dirtybird]

SoHo, on the other hand, has a lot of independent boutiques. But, mixed in are plenty of chains.

That's the probem common with retail in any city. Even though there are independent boutiques, we just notice the chains. Soho feels very chain-y to me even though I'm sure there are plenty of boutiques in between them.

Just like right now in Midtown, there are already plenty of retail (all independent or small) that no one talks about. Fab' rik, Red, H. Stockton, Yes, Universal Gear, Kiss, Interior Dimensions, Space, Twelve, etc. There's no brand recognition with these store so no one notices. But when the national retailers come in, people will say Midtown is just filled with chains.

[MidtownMile]

What actually could prove very good for Atlanta is if some anchors came in with these current botiques. The stores in Midtown are actually quite good. And, some of them would have the potential to expand with enough business and recognition. If we got a Crate & Barrel, H&M, and other "larger" (physically) chains and a few of the staples, I really think this whole area will take off. I also think it will only take 2 or 3 of these to take the foot traffic to another level.

[joey]

If we got a Crate & Barrel, H&M, and other "larger" (physically) chains and a few of the staples, I really think this whole area will take off.

Well, Office Depot already opened another store on Spring Street . . . I think a Staples in the area may be overkill.

[cabasse]

If we got a Crate & Barrel, H&M, and other "larger" (physically) chains and a few of the staples, I really think this whole area will take off.Well, Office Depot already opened another store on Spring Street . . . I think a Staples in the area may be overkill.

wah wah waaaah.

staples of retail, not the chain; but you were joking... right?

but of course. i'll disappear now.

[sprtsluvr8]

staples....like basics. :)

[joey]

staples....like basics. :)

Wait, I don't follow.

[sprtsluvr8]

Okay...food staples are milk, eggs, bread, etc. Retail staples would be The Gap, The Limited, Banana Republic, etc.

[joey]

Okay, I'll end it here. I was kidding (I was in a strange mood), and I continued it because it wasn't readily apparent to some that I was kidding.

And, Cabasse, the better response is:

Ba dump bum dump, tsssssshhh

Ha ha ha. Back to the normal program.

[MidtownMile]

We really need a universal symbol for that drum/cymbal riff.

[ThrashATL]

What the Midtown Mile needs is a Joe Muggs newstand. Big sucker on a corner with tables at the windows for the coffe shop. A gazillion newspapers and magazines from around the world. Borders & BandN are just too big and impersonal for the MM.

[Terminus]

What the Midtown Mile needs is a Joe Muggs newstand. Big sucker on a corner with tables at the windows for the coffe shop. A gazillion newspapers and magazines from around the world. Borders & BandN are just too big and impersonal for the MM.

It had one at Peachtree and 8th. It went out of business.

[cokezero]

It had one at Peachtree and 8th. It went out of business.

For those of you familiar with that area, it was located in the former Wolf Camera space before Wolf.

[atlantaguy]

Do you guys think perhaps Joe Mugg's was a little ahead of it's time there? I seem to remember some complaint about not enough parking.

[SAV]

ok, let me get this straight

We are going to have lenox and phipps in Buckhead on the Northern section of Peachtree. THese malls are now getting new stores

THEN, a couple of blocks down the road we are getting even more upscale shops in Buckhead ( buckhead avenues)

THEN, we are getting stores similar to the ones in Lenox and Phipps in Midtown

AND, all of them are upscale,high-end, extra expensive

Thats a lot of expensive stuff to support. I hope Atlanta can do this in 10 years

Does New York or L.A. or any other big city has this much high end retail in such a small radius

[atlantaguy]

SAV - I really don't think Midtown is actually seeking ultra high-end retail, but I could be wrong. I would not be surprised to see a little bit sprinkled in here & there, but the really ultra stuff will most certainly go to Buckhead Avenues and the new area going up in Alpharetta (Prospect Park).

I think we can expect to see Midtown attracting things that have been mentioned previously, like Crate & Barrel, Pottery Barn, Sur la Table, H&M, Apple, Sony, etc. mixed in with local merchants that provide more of the day to day needs of the neighborhood.........but who knows? At any rate, the retail appetite in this town seems to be voracious, so I'm pretty sure just about anything will be supported if it's in the right location. If the Midtown Mile takes off they way everyone seems to expect it will, I really would not be shocked to see something like a Kohl's, or a smallish Macy's to join the lineup.

[MidtownMile]

SAV - I really don't think Midtown is actually seeking ultra high-end retail, but I could be wrong. I would not be surprised to see a little bit sprinkled in here & there, but the really ultra stuff will most certainly go to Buckhead Avenues and the new area going up in Alpharetta (Prospect Park).

I think we can expect to see Midtown attracting things that have been mentioned previously, like Crate & Barrel, Pottery Barn, Sur la Table, H&M, Apple, Sony, etc. mixed in with local merchants that provide more of the day to day needs of the neighborhood.........but who knows? At any rate, the retail appetite in this town seems to be voracious, so I'm pretty sure just about anything will be supported if it's in the right location. If the Midtown Mile takes off they way everyone seems to expect it will, I really would not be shocked to see something like a Kohl's, or a smallish Macy's to join the lineup.


I think (hope?) you are right, atlantaguy. It seems at one time Midtown had grand dreams of attracting Prada and the like, but those will go to the Avenues first. I would put money on that. Midtown would likely serve the Yuppie crowd a bit more. Nice but affordable, exclusive but not ultra high-end stores. I think your list is great. I also think it showcases the more lifestyle-oriented stores where you go to furnish your condo, get a jacket to wear to the office, and fix your iPod. While they are destination for tourists, they also serve as a lifeline of sorts for the residents. That would be Midtown's niche (sort of a larger extension of Atlantic Station's current role).

[jobe]

Checked out the viewpoint site today and it looks like they've added a virtual tour.

[Broccoli]

I just read an article in the Atlanta Business Chronicle that says Viewpoint increasing their retail from 30,000 square feet to 50,000 square feet. :tup:

Page 13A of the April 6-12 edition.

[cokezero]

I just read an article in the Atlanta Business Chronicle that says Viewpoint increasing their retail from 30,000 square feet to 50,000 square feet. :tup:

Page 13A of the April 6-12 edition.

ABC accurately reported what happened, although you mis-summarized the ABC's report and essentially quoted what was said in an AJC article last week.

Novare always intended to include 50,000 SF of retail at ViewPoint. The 30,000 SF along Peachtree was planned to be built with the Phase I residential tower. An additional 20,000 SF along 6th Street was planned to be built with the Phase II residential tower. For a variety of reasons, Novare announced last week that they have decided to go ahead and build all 50,000 SF of retail with the first residential tower.

Novare claimed that they decided to go ahead and build all of the retail now because of the significant interest they've received in the space. However, I think the true story is that although the demand for their retail space isn't as much as they were hoping, they realized that the demand for the second phase retail phase is likely to materialize a lot sooner than the demand for the second residential tower to be built. I also believe it may have simply been a PR stunt to get an article written about their residential sales office opening (they may have decided months ago to build all 50,000 SF now, but wanted to wait until their condo sales office opened to announce this in order to generate buzz about their project).

But either way, to clear things up - the AJC is wrong, the amount of retail space being built at ViewPoint is not increasing. Novare has simply decided to build it all in one phase.

[Broccoli]

Oops, sorry for the mixup... I thought there was now more retail than originally planned. :dunce:

[cokezero]

Oops, sorry for the mixup... I thought there was now more retail than originally planned. :dunce:

No need to apologize. Sorry if my response came across as soliciting one!! I just wanted to set the record straight - Novare, in my opinion, was just trying to generate false hype for their project!

The AJC bought into the hype and wrote a one page article last week about how the Midtown Mile was already such a booming success that Novare decided to build an additional 20,000 SF of retail space, without verifying the source of their information. The ABC's print edition the following day accurately reported on what Novare was doing - simply building their retail space faster than originally planned!

[cokezero]

What does everyone think about Midtown's chances for landing an "anchor" store along the lines of a Macy's or a Target for their Midtown Mile?

The only likely place I believe one could be built is on Dewberry's 10th and Peachtree Street site. Every other sizeable tract along the Midtown Mile is either developed or in the process of being developed.

However, every traditional department store chain in the Atlanta area is already represented at Peachtree and Lenox (with the exception of Sear's and JCPenney, but Sear's has transformed into nothing more than a real estate holding company and I can't imagine JCPenney seriously considering a non-mall or lifestyle center location). Macy's already failed once, so I can't imagine them ever seriously considering another try at Peachtree Street for Macy's or their sister chain Bloomingdale's. Would any of the other stores in Buckhead (Nordstrom, Neiman Marcus, Belk/Parisian, Saks) consider opening another location in Midtown?

I'd say no, none of the Buckhead department stores would consider opening an additional store in Midtown. So then that would leave us with only big box retailers as potential anchors. In my opinion, Target is already cannibalizing itself with so many intown stores (North Buckhead, South Buckhead, Edgewood, and Atlantic Station) and wouldn't be interested. Wal-Mart, wih only one intown store, could be a possibility and would probably be a big draw. But with Wal-Mart being everyone's favorite big box to hate, I'm sure NPU-E and the Midtown Alliance would do everything they could to keep them off Peachtree.

So then what? Can the Midtown Mile be this world-class shopping destination everyone is envisioning if it only has the likes of a Gap and a Crate & Barrell? Or better yet, will those chains even open a store on Peachtree without an anchor or two nearby?

[Terminus]

What does everyone think about Midtown's chances for landing an "anchor" store along the lines of a Macy's or a Target for their Midtown Mile?

The only likely place I believe one could be built is on Dewberry's 10th and Peachtree Street site. Every other sizeable tract along the Midtown Mile is either developed or in the process of being developed.

However, every traditional department store chain in the Atlanta area is already represented at Peachtree and Lenox (with the exception of Sear's and JCPenney, but Sear's has transformed into nothing more than a real estate holding company and I can't imagine JCPenney seriously considering a non-mall or lifestyle center location). Macy's already failed once, so I can't imagine them ever seriously considering another try at Peachtree Street for Macy's or their sister chain Bloomingdale's. Would any of the other stores in Buckhead (Nordstrom, Neiman Marcus, Belk/Parisian, Saks) consider opening another location in Midtown?

I'd say no, none of the Buckhead department stores would consider opening an additional store in Midtown. So then that would leave us with only big box retailers as potential anchors. In my opinion, Target is already cannibalizing itself with so many intown stores (North Buckhead, South Buckhead, Edgewood, and Atlantic Station) and wouldn't be interested. Wal-Mart, wih only one intown store, could be a possibility and would probably be a big draw. But with Wal-Mart being everyone's favorite big box to hate, I'm sure NPU-E and the Midtown Alliance would do everything they could to keep them off Peachtree.

So then what? Can the Midtown Mile be this world-class shopping destination everyone is envisioning if it only has the likes of a Gap and a Crate & Barrell? Or better yet, will those chains even open a store on Peachtree without an anchor or two nearby?

Markets and competition notwithstanding, it is virtually impossible for traditional department stores today to be created in any urban environment for several reasons. The biggest reason being that they typically pay very little rent, so a free-standing department store (or one on the ground floor of an office or condo buildings is really a money loser unless: a) there is some sort of public subsidy, or b) the developer of said project owners a lot of street level retail nearby and can justify raising the rents on the in-line stores to subsidize the department store (which theoretically will make the other retailers more valuable.

One scenario where it could possibly work without public subsidies is if somebody like Selig, who owns several adjacent blocks and takes a long-term perspective, were to put one in. Essentially, it would be on par to creating an urban mall financing mechanism and it MAY be viable.

The most likely option would be a large-scale vertical retail center similar to Water Tower Place in Chicago. In this case, the big store could by subsidized by the smaller ones around it and within the same project.

I don't think Midtown needs a department store anchor. There are many junior anchors or shadow anchors that could and will work just as well.

These are the very same reasons why we'll probably never get a traditional department store in the former Macy*s space in Downtown. Without public support, no developer in their right mind will lease to a store at the terms the store would want. The only viable option might be something like Wal-Mart or Targer, which are actually used to paying rent.

[Fiorenza]

Terminus, do you have any thought about what the new owner of the of the Macy's building might be planning? My best guess would be that he bought it for next to nothing and plans to sit on it for two or three years and wait for opportunities. He appears to be an investor, not a developer.

[shanthemanatl]

Terminus, do you have any thought about what the new owner of the of the Macy's building might be planning? My best guess would be that he bought it for next to nothing and plans to sit on it for two or three years and wait for opportunities. He appears to be an investor, not a developer.

I still think an Atlanta version of NYC's Chelsea Market, or a "downtown" version of the Dekalb Farmer's Market would be an awesome idea for the old Macy's building.

[Fiorenza]

Hopefully tending to upscale, publicized and attractive for CP, GWCC and AmericasMart visitors, with some well-maintained multimedia and display common areas. There's plenty of parking space for the locals as well.

I'm sorry Cousins didn't acquire and develop it as a multilevel "Avenue".

[MidtownMile]

I still think an Atlanta version of NYC's Chelsea Market, or a "downtown" version of the Dekalb Farmer's Market would be an awesome idea for the old Macy's building.

I think that would be a great idea in concept, but downtown doesn't have the residential force to support the actual market like that. Now, I think SoNo might be a wonderful use of this concept.

[mayhem]

I think that would be a great idea in concept, but downtown doesn't have the residential force to support the actual market like that. Now, I think SoNo might be a wonderful use of this concept.

You mean like Sweet Auburn market?

[shanthemanatl]

I think that would be a great idea in concept, but downtown doesn't have the residential force to support the actual market like that. Now, I think SoNo might be a wonderful use of this concept.

I would agree that Downtown doesn't currently have the residential numbers to support it, but I would think that a combination of tourists, conventioneers, residents, and daytime office workers might support it until more people move Downtown.

As for SoNo, that would rock, since I live there!

[whoDean]

How does Midtown's per capita income in 1 and 3 mile radii compare to Buckhead's?

This is the real number that any potential retailers are interested in.

[Tombstoner]

I would agree that Downtown doesn't currently have the residential numbers to support it, but I would think that a combination of tourists, conventioneers, residents, and daytime office workers might support it until more people move Downtown.



yeah, if it was like the Strip District in Pittsburgh or the Reading Terminal Market in Philly it would both support whatever residential population there is as well as be a tourist attraction if you got high quality (not plastic could-be-anywhere), shops/produce stalls/lunch counters with genuine Atlanta connections. What Sweet Auburn was meant to be, I think.

[Fiorenza]

Let's pitch it to the new owner.

[Terminus]

How does Midtown's per capita income in 1 and 3 mile radii compare to Buckhead's?

This is the real number that any potential retailers are interested in.

Here's an overview of the Midtown trade area:

http://www.midtownmile.com/trade_area.html

And here are some for Downtown:

http://www.atlantadowntown.com/DoingBusiness_Downtown_Glance.asp

I believe there's also some good retail market information in the report at:

http://www.atlantadowntown.com/ImagineDowntownIntro.asp

From everything I've heard,Downtown/Midtown are statically some of the most under-retailed urban areas in the nation.

[MidtownMile]

You mean like Sweet Auburn market?


Yes and no. Sweet Auburn is outstanding. It is such a great farmers' market-type installation. I think there is potential to have another similar area with more international or higher-end culinary wares. Having a culinary destination area like that (with a combination of markets) could actually be a wonderful defining aspect for these regions of Atlanta. It also would serve to promote both the culinary and cosmopolitan reputation of the city. We've got some great chefs that love to discuss their ideas and work. Why not reward them with a place where they can meet their customers and truly get creative with a plethora of items right in front of them.

[whoDean]

Here's an overview of the Midtown trade area:

http://www.midtownmile.com/trade_area.html

And here are some for Downtown:

http://www.atlantadowntown.com/DoingBusiness_Downtown_Glance.asp

I believe there's also some good retail market information in the report at:

http://www.atlantadowntown.com/ImagineDowntownIntro.asp

From everything I've heard,Downtown/Midtown are statically some of the most under-retailed urban areas in the nation.

Great info, how does the $81K Average HH income compare to Buckhead? (For comparison to see if high-end retailers would prefer a buckhead or midtown location if forced to choose).

Also, what the heck is Psychographic Segmentation?

[shanthemanatl]

Let's pitch it to the new owner.

I'm there, man!

[Tombstoner]

Yes and no. Sweet Auburn is outstanding. It is such a great farmers' market-type installation. I think there is potential to have another similar area with more international or higher-end culinary wares. Having a culinary destination area like that (with a combination of markets) could actually be a wonderful defining aspect for these regions of Atlanta. It also would serve to promote both the culinary and cosmopolitan reputation of the city. We've got some great chefs that love to discuss their ideas and work. Why not reward them with a place where they can meet their customers and truly get creative with a plethora of items right in front of them.

Great idea. Is the Food Network based here in ATL? Some interesting possibilities...

[DonTallPaul]

Great idea. Is the Food Network based here in ATL? Some interesting possibilities...

Pretty sure the network is based out of New York. However, I can name at least one popular Chef on their network that is from Atlanta (and filsm regularly here), and another from Savannah. There may be even more, but I'm just not that into food network. Good Eats is the shit though.

[tdawg]

Food Network's HQ is in the Chelsea Market building near the Meatpacking District. Paula Deen is from Savannah and tapes her show from there. Tyler Florence is from Greenville, South Carolina. i don't know what Atlanta chef you are thinking of. Who is it?

[Harry Cane]

It's Alton Brown!!!!!

I've bumped into him a couple of times.

[shanthemanatl]

Food Network's HQ is in the Chelsea Market building near the Meatpacking District. Paula Deen is from Savannah and tapes her show from there. Tyler Florence is from Greenville, South Carolina. i don't know what Atlanta chef you are thinking of. Who is it?

I think Paula actually does the bulk of her filming in her home in Savannah now. I remember her mentioning on one of her shows that the kitchen in her new home was specifically designed with the idea in mind that she could shoot more episodes right there in Savannah.

BTW, Alton Brown's show just won a Peabody Award....very prestigious!

[ThrashATL]

It's Alton Brown!!!!!

I've bumped into him a couple of times.

Every once in awhile, you see them filming at Harry's Farmers Market in Roswell.

[tdawg]

I love me some Paula Deen! My boyfriend and I are addicted to her. She seems so generally warm and funny and i love her little cackle/laugh.

[galaca]

Alton Brown is awesome. I love how he gives you the "science" behind cooking. One FN "chef" I cant stand, however, is Sooondra Llllee and her wretched "food" kreations. :yuck:

For the Midtown Mile, does anyone know if something is planned at the Federal Reserve. I know they probably wont allow any construction there, but can something be done to minimze this huge break in the street wall? I think a really attractive fence could be put up (to sort of give people something to "push" back on) or is that totally anti-urban?

[GThomas]

For the Midtown Mile, does anyone know if something is planned at the Federal Reserve. I know they probably wont allow any construction there, but can something be done to minimze this huge break in the street wall? I think a really attractive fence could be put up (to sort of give people something to "push" back on) or is that totally anti-urban?

Perhaps there could be a marketplace with street-vendors and such. It could be a small performance area with dancing/musical performers, or a place where public demonstrations (like the tobacco "truth" ads or something) are held. If there is enough pedestrian traffic, I could see this space being put to good use. Don't know how protective they are of that space though. It seems that after the majority of Peachtree is developed in this area (with buildings/stores up to the street), this open space might be valued and could be put to great use.

[cokezero]

Perhaps there could be a marketplace with street-vendors and such. It could be a small performance area with dancing/musical performers, or a place where public demonstrations (like the tobacco "truth" ads or something) are held. If there is enough pedestrian traffic, I could see this space being put to good use. Don't know how protective they are of that space though. It seems that after the majority of Peachtree is developed in this area (with buildings/stores up to the street), this open space might be valued and could be put to great use.

I would bet that the feds have very strict requirements about access to their buildings and their proximity to the road after the OK City bombing in 1995. The Federal Reserve was built so far back from Peachtree for a reason, and I am sure the aftermath of the OKC bombing played a big role in determining the building's placement on the site. With that said, I would bet that there is little they will let "us" do to utilize all that wasted space along Peachtree.

For all we know, the U.S. government might have had a significantly worse original plan for that site and the plaza in front of the Federal Reserve building may actually be the result of some type of compromise with the Midtown Alliance. Terminus - what do you know about the history of that project?

Rather than trying to do something with the Reserve building, I feel that the Midtown Alliance would have a much better chance convincing the federal government of the benefits of selling their anti-urban FDA building at Peachtree and 8th to a private developer and should focus any efforts with the feds on that.

[RobMidtowner]

Even though it won't be a row of storefronts, I don't think it's all that bad. At least it has a park and greenspace...this could potentially be a place for people to go relax between shopping and dinner for example.

[GNofAtlanta]

From Midtown Alliance:

http://www.midtownalliance.org/Docum...Tour_07_04.pdf

Not much new EXCEPT a picture of the added retail to 999 Peachtree (#21) and a picture of the new Mandarin Hotel (#13)!

[Trae]

From Midtown Alliance:

http://www.midtownalliance.org/Docum...Tour_07_04.pdf

Not much new EXCEPT a picture of the added retail to 999 Peachtree (#21) and a picture of the new Mandarin Hotel (#13)!

Your link isn't working.

[galaca]

Here's the link: Midtown Development Tour (http://www.midtownalliance.org/Documents/Midtown_Atl_Dev_Tour_07_04.pdf)

The Mandarin Oriental is...interesting. I think I like it! :sly:

[tdawg]

It's freakin' awesome. Probably will be one of Midtown's most beautiful. I love the sloping roofline down to the street.

[shanthemanatl]

Alton Brown is awesome. I love how he gives you the "science" behind cooking. One FN "chef" I cant stand, however, is Sooondra Llllee and her wretched "food" kreations. :yuck:

For the Midtown Mile, does anyone know if something is planned at the Federal Reserve. I know they probably wont allow any construction there, but can something be done to minimze this huge break in the street wall? I think a really attractive fence could be put up (to sort of give people something to "push" back on) or is that totally anti-urban?

I'm with you...something about Sandra Lee just gets under my skin.

I think she might need 12-step meetings are something...have you ever noticed how she always has a cocktail or two on the menu, even if she's doing a kid's menu????:cheers:

[gttx]

It's kind of...goofy. Reminds me of a building in Dubai. Either way, though, it will be something new architecturally for Atlanta, and the base looks awesome!

[galaca]

I'm with you...something about Sandra Lee just gets under my skin.

I think she might need 12-step meetings are something...have you ever noticed how she always has a cocktail or two on the menu, even if she's doing a kid's menu????:cheers:

Oh yes! Sooondra lllloves her cocktail time! On one episode recently she even made a gag-worthy "kiddie kocktail." It was mostly giant chunks of fruits with an odd combination of jooses. :slob:

[Tombstoner]

Oh yes! Sooondra lllloves her cocktail time! On one episode recently she even made a gag-worthy "kiddie kocktail." It was mostly giant chunks of fruits with an odd combination of jooses. :slob:

I don't know the woman and I don't know the show, but the idea of introducing little kids to "cocktails" is a little questionable...:yuck:

[sunking1056]

Even though it won't be a row of storefronts, I don't think it's all that bad. At least it has a park and greenspace...this could potentially be a place for people to go relax between shopping and dinner for example.


I agree. it may not be urban or anything but at least it's interesting and potentially useful. If lines of street level retail have to be broken up by something, I don't mind it being this.

Oh, and Sandra Lee is clearly an alcoholic. Not only does she have a cocktail in every show she adds alcohol to EVERY recipe! regardless of whether or not it's at all appropriate. She craaaaaazy

[KevinAtl]

Mandarin Oriental Atlanta
http://i56.photobucket.com/albums/g165/kevinatl/MandarinOrientalAtlanta.jpg

[popewiz]

Keep in mind that at the same time we all would like street level all the way up and down Peachtree, many of us have also expressed a desire for pocket type parks. The space in front of the federal reserve is a nice public park and I believe it fills the "pocket parks" requirement perfectly.

[AtlFan]

Retail development is like a great smile -- there cannot be too many gaps -- if you want sucess. Retail must be contiuous -- block to block, corner to corner.

In addition to the 180-acre Piedmont Park (just a couple blocks away) Midtown Mile is dotted with pocket parks - Bank of America, BellSouth, Spire Plaza, Margret Mitchell House, The Federal Reserve. The strret's leftover spaces must become retail if the Midtown Mile is to truly develop as a retail corridor.

[popewiz]

As far as your list goes, the onle ones I feel could be considered parks are BoA, and BellSouth. Spire, and the Margeret Mitchell house have maybe 200 sq feet each, and Spire's is really just concrete. Furthermore, you can't hang around in the Bank of America and Bellsouth "parks" for too long before they start trying to get you out of there (I tried while I was in school).

[Tombstoner]

As far as your list goes, the onle ones I feel could be considered parks are BoA, and BellSouth. Spire, and the Margeret Mitchell house have maybe 200 sq feet each, and Spire's is really just concrete. Furthermore, you can't hang around in the Bank of America and Bellsouth "parks" for too long before they start trying to get you out of there (I tried while I was in school).

Yeah, you need more than just grass to have a pocket park. Some centralized, inviting seating, maybe a fountain or sculpture, even a sign declaring it to be a "park" rather than the anteroom to BOA etc., would be helpful. Creating a streetscape where people feel comfortable hanging out in between appointments/shopping trips/dog walkings is something Atlanta has never really gotten the hang of.

[AtlFan]

Just found this link snoopiong around:
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=417697053579168054&q=midtown+mile

I think it is on the MM website - but nice to see it on Google also.

[AtlFan]

Brand new Viewpoint on the Midtown Mile Video online now:
http://www.viewpointmidtownmile.com/
What happened to the CVS and Gordon Biersch?

[ATLBlaxican]

:previous: Love the Viedo!!!!! This is Novares best website yet. It makes me want to buy a unit and I don't even really like the building! Great job!!

[cokezero]

:previous: Love the Viedo!!!!! This is Novares best website yet. It makes me want to buy a unit and I don't even really like the building! Great job!!

That video isn't advertising the residences - it's advertising the retail space!

Check out http://www.viewpointmidtown.com for information on the residences.

[Dragonheart8588]

Brand new Viewpoint on the Midtown Mile Video online now:
http://www.viewpointmidtownmile.com/
What happened to the CVS and Gordon Biersch?

Are the shops in the video will become a reality when Viewpoint completes its construction? I would like to try out the H&M store.

[Fiorenza]

I hate to be a realist, but we're going to be looking at even more empty retail space.

[jobe]

I hate to be a realist, but we're going to be looking at even more empty retail space.

You live in the 'burbs, don't you?

[mayhem]

I hate to be a realist, but we're going to be looking at even more empty retail space.

I highly doubt that.

[Fiorenza]

Prove me wrong.

[Trae]

I hate to be a realist, but we're going to be looking at even more empty retail space.
I have been saying the same thing at my Atlanta forum. There is too much going up I believe (condos, retail, and office development).

[scguy]

There may be but the city of Atlanta, (intown) is exploding with new people. They need places to live, shop, eat and work. Now I know there are plenty of oppurtunity areas in intown Atlanta but right now anywhere in the 2-3 mile circle around Midtown, including all the surrounding neighborhoods are booming.

[mayhem]

Prove me wrong.

Just look at Spire and Plaza Midtown. Spire has two spaces open. One they've obviously kept held for their sales center, the other is from Tasty D Lite which closed down several locations, afaik. Plaza Midtown has one open space. It will be probably an extra 6-9 months after Viewpoint I is completed before retail will surface, but I think the two aforementioned project show that there is a healthy desire for more retail space. Don't forget 905 Juniper which is leased out 100% or Metropolis which has another store front lining up the second one closes down.

[Fiorenza]

Hope you're right.

[RobMidtowner]

Just look at Spire and Plaza Midtown. Spire has two spaces open. One they've obviously kept held for their sales center, the other is from Tasty D Lite which closed down several locations, afaik. Plaza Midtown has one open space. It will be probably an extra 6-9 months after Viewpoint I is completed before retail will surface, but I think the two aforementioned project show that there is a healthy desire for more retail space. Don't forget 905 Juniper which is leased out 100% or Metropolis which has another store front lining up the second one closes down.

And don't forget Tech Square...to say that retail isn't performing in central midtown is just incorrect.

[dante2308]

Sorry to say this but Tech Square is working because it marketed to students. Maybe if some of the retail elsewhere around the area didn't try so hard to be upscale, it would do better. There are too many trendy furniture stores to count and nothing along Peachtree but eats, the CVS, and that art store that I ever see myself using.

[Andrea]

... the city of Atlanta, (intown) is exploding with new people. They need places to live, shop, eat and work. Now I know there are plenty of oppurtunity areas in intown Atlanta but right now anywhere in the 2-3 mile circle around Midtown, including all the surrounding neighborhoods are booming.

Why can't they just take the connector out to the suburbs?

[sabino86]

Why can't they just take the connector out to the suburbs?

Here we go again... ;)

[MarketsWork]

Sorry to say this but Tech Square is working because it marketed to students. Maybe if some of the retail elsewhere around the area didn't try so hard to be upscale, it would do better. There are too many trendy furniture stores to count and nothing along Peachtree but eats, the CVS, and that art store that I ever see myself using.

I think you're right about this; smart retailers have to know their target markets. Full-time residents aren't going to buy expensive new "upscale" items every day. But they will need "everyday" stores like Publix, CVS, Target, and Home Depot, and plenty of inexpensive restaurants. There is a lot of "chicken and egg" guessing going on right now in Downtown and Midtown, as retail supply and demand are still feeling each other out. I believe this is going to take some time to evolve...

[ATLBlaxican]

Originally Posted By cokezero
That video isn't advertising the residences - it's advertising the retail space!

Check out http://www.viewpointmidtown.com for information on the residences.


I know that, it was obvious!!, I was just saying that it would be a cool place to live given all the retail at the bottom. I guess thanks for trying to help.

[gttx]

I like the pseudo-name brands they put on the storefronts: "Urban Apparel," "Ruma," etc...

Also, while much of the space in Tech Square is marketed to students, it would be foolish to think that all of it could survive with only business from Georgia Tech. The Globe, American Apparel, and that Lexington Chocolatier (which I've never seen anyone go in) can attest to that. The restaurants also all stay open during the summer....so I'd say there is significant demand for them outside of their proximity to the school.

[CityFan]

Prove me wrong.
So long as condos are filled, retail space won't be empty. Believe me builders had numbers worked out by experts

[Harry Cane]

I like the pseudo-name brands they put on the storefronts: "Urban Apparel," "Ruma," etc...



Yeah, me too. I noticed the names are made to sound like the national retailers with fonts to match like Sur la Cuisine for Sur la Table, for example. Wondered if it was an indication of who they were negotiating with or, perhaps more likely, who they’d like to be negotiating with.

[smArTaLlone]

I hate to be a realist, but we're going to be looking at even more empty retail space.

Would anyone ever this same claim about a fast growing suburban community?

[RobMidtowner]

Sorry to say this but Tech Square is working because it marketed to students. Maybe if some of the retail elsewhere around the area didn't try so hard to be upscale, it would do better. There are too many trendy furniture stores to count and nothing along Peachtree but eats, the CVS, and that art store that I ever see myself using.

Tech Square retail is working because it's a destination with a large anchor flanked with smaller shops, just like Viewpoint and 12th & Midtown will be. It has the right mix of hotel, condo, office, and educational space to give it perpetual activity so it's not solely dependent on one set of people.

[Fiorenza]

Specialty retail is under pressure in all sorts of middle class and even upscale communities due to several reasons, not the least internet sales , Walmart and Target, etc.

[GThomas]

Stool Pigeons and Joey's Mexican Grill (which is now closed) have been bought and will be made one space for Taco Mac.

I don't think this has been mentioned.

[dante2308]

Tech Square retail is working because it's a destination with a large anchor flanked with smaller shops, just like Viewpoint and 12th & Midtown will be. It has the right mix of hotel, condo, office, and educational space to give it perpetual activity so it's not solely dependent on one set of people.

There aren't any condos inside Tech Square. There are some nearby lofts, but 90% of the people who use Tech Square are the techies and in case you didn't realize, everything with few exceptions closes down by 11. Tech Square's success is linked to its proximity to 16,000 students and the provision of a large book store, a Starbucks, and reasonably-priced eats.

[AtlantaG8R]

Stool Pigeons and Joey's Mexican Grill (which is now closed) have been bought and will be made one space for Taco Mac.

I don't think this has been mentioned.

I heard Stool Pigeons was bought a while back but didnt know by who. I think Taco Mac is a great fit for that location! My wife and I are big fans of the one they put in Lindbergh, and now we'll be able to just cross the street!!

[mayhem]

Good news about Taco Mac!

[gttx]

90% of the people who use Tech Square are the techies and in case you didn't realize, everything with few exceptions closes down by 11. Tech Square's success is linked to its proximity to 16,000 students and the provision of a large book store, a Starbucks, and reasonably-priced eats.

You could just as easily argue that any urban retail's success is due to its proximity to residents, a large flagship, and good restaurants; I don't understand why it's such a big deal that a lot of the "residents" that use it are students. The real argument is whether only students use it and whether the retail caters to only students.

Look at the surrounding area and its demographics. You have condos/lofts to the north like MidCity Lofts, Post Biltmore, and Plaza Midtown, which cater mostly to more affluent clientele. You have the GT Hotel, which brings in all sorts of people and will sooned be joined by the more-upscale Palomar. You have office buildings nearby like Centergy and the Biltmore. The Cheetah is even a huge contributor some of the success of Tech Square - I bet a lot of people visiting or coming from other parts of town that venture over to the Cheetah end up hitting a restaurant in Tech Square (the Globe perhaps) or going to Starbuck's.

Is the success of Tech Square as an active, pedestrian-friendly corridor primarily due to its proximity to so many students? Of course, as is this type of success anywhere (with students replaced by residents or whatever). But there are countless other establishments with office workers, residents, and visitors that also make the retail and restaurant space in Tech Square a success. The very existence of more expensive places like The Globe testify to that. Further developing those uses along the Midtown Mile will undoubtedly be what determines its viability as a major retail district.

(Also, if a lot of those places depended only on student business, I'm sure the restaurants would be open later. People at Tech stay up till all hours of the morning...)

[RobMidtowner]

There aren't any condos inside Tech Square. There are some nearby lofts, but 90% of the people who use Tech Square are the techies and in case you didn't realize, everything with few exceptions closes down by 11. Tech Square's success is linked to its proximity to 16,000 students and the provision of a large book store, a Starbucks, and reasonably-priced eats.

The point is that people live there or close enough to conveniently go there and support the retail...midcity lofts, biltmore, post biltmore, plaza midtown, etc. are all within walking distance. I don't agree that 90% of the people are techies. I've seen a good amount of business professionals etc. when I've been there at daytime and nighttime. 16,000 may be Tech's enrollment, but that's far short of the daytime population and I can guarantee you the daytime population is higher on the east side of Tech Square within the same land area as Tech's campus.

Look I'm not trying to argue with you, I'm glad Tech Square is successful no matter who's going there and I hope that all planned and future developments are just as succesful. :tup:

[dante2308]

You could just as easily argue that any urban retail's success is due to its proximity to residents, a large flagship, and good restaurants; I don't understand why it's such a big deal that a lot of the "residents" that use it are students. The real argument is whether only students use it and whether the retail caters to only students.

Look at the surrounding area and its demographics. You have condos/lofts to the north like MidCity Lofts, Post Biltmore, and Plaza Midtown, which cater mostly to more affluent clientele. You have the GT Hotel, which brings in all sorts of people and will sooned be joined by the more-upscale Palomar. You have office buildings nearby like Centergy and the Biltmore. The Cheetah is even a huge contributor some of the success of Tech Square - I bet a lot of people visiting or coming from other parts of town that venture over to the Cheetah end up hitting a restaurant in Tech Square (the Globe perhaps) or going to Starbuck's.

Is the success of Tech Square as an active, pedestrian-friendly corridor primarily due to its proximity to so many students? Of course, as is this type of success anywhere (with students replaced by residents or whatever). But there are countless other establishments with office workers, residents, and visitors that also make the retail and restaurant space in Tech Square a success. The very existence of more expensive places like The Globe testify to that. Further developing those uses along the Midtown Mile will undoubtedly be what determines its viability as a major retail district.

(Also, if a lot of those places depended only on student business, I'm sure the restaurants would be open later. People at Tech stay up till all hours of the morning...)


I'm not disagreeing. The only read deal here is that you can't plop retail at random and expect it to boom. That s it.

[cokezero]

I'm not disagreeing. The only read deal here is that you can't plop retail at random and expect it to boom. That s it.

Planning to construct retail space on a corridor already home to millions of SF of Class A office space, thousands of residents, and two high-profile cultural venues is "plopping retail at random?" :koko:

[ThrashATL]

"Plopping retail" is something you see along Pleasant Hill Road in Gwinnett County.

[RobMidtowner]

Seriously, why all the negativity about the retail market in midtown because it's clearly not in touch with today's reality. To anyone that thinks the Midtown Mile is going to flop, please give a list of all empty retail space in Midtown today. :rolleyes:

[dante2308]

Planning to construct retail space on a corridor already home to millions of SF of Class A office space, thousands of residents, and two high-profile cultural venues is "plopping retail at random?" :koko:

Nope that isn't plopping retail at random. That a plan. Plans are good.

[MidtownMile]

The other issue is that the desination-style stores haven't come in yet. Everyone is correct. The high-end and very specialty stores are fillers. But, that also means people don't necessarily come for them. They are a poor indicator as to demand (in some regards). What it will really take, IMHO, are some non-Atlanta, wider-ranged specialty shops. I really think a Sur, H&M, etc. would do very well in Midtown. They are stores that people will come to Midtown to visit, but that cater to Young Professionals. That is Midtown's strong suit, and that is it's audience. Prada, Gucci, Boss, etc. would likely not do well. Their clientelle drives (or is driven), and they spend a day shopping. The Midtown Mile wants people that have a few minutes after work, while Daddy's at the convention or Mommy's at her meeting, or before the show at the Fox. Places that can have whim buys and "necessary" buys will succeed (so Apple, sports stores, C&B, etc.).

It will work, it just takes a few people to come in and say "yes."

[Terminus]

I'm most worried about the ability of the Mile to actually attract the type of tenants they want. In its present state (and even after most projects are done) the only part that will have the physical quality that retailers demand will be the two blocks around 1010 Peachtree. Of course, it's to be expected because Selig, unlike Novare, Hines, etc, actually builds retail and has a whole team of in-house staff who know what the stores want - namely crtical mass (150,000 sf) of continuous, street-oriented storefronts.

My fear is that the rest of the Mile, in the forseable future, will be restaurants, which is something Midtown doesn't need any more of, IMO. This would be an unhealthy mix. Unfortunately, with the broken-tooth, fragmented nature of retail on the rest of the corridor, restaurants (which are destinations and don't require co-tenancy) are the only things that WILL work well there.

[mayhem]

My fear is that the rest of the Mile, in the forseable future, will be restaurants, which is something Midtown doesn't need any more of, IMO.

I really feel that there isn't nearly enough restaurants. Not nearly enough cheaper eats. You won't catch me at Silk, Oceanaire, Trois, Eno (only guessing), or Ecco on a regular basis because they are too expensive for me to eat at unless it's a special occasion. More places like Vortex, Little Azio, Noodle, and Goldstar would add the much needed variety for me. I find myself going to Noodle about 3-4 times a week for my gf. When I think about it, there are a lot of restaurants in Midtown, just not enough to cater to different demographics with variety.

[Fiorenza]

Not nearly enough cheaper eats.

The owner/developers are not interested to provide cheaper eats. On the other hand, they are not going to get Lenox/Phipps and certainly not a Prada. More realistic targets, and what the market likely needs, would be some of the type of retailers to be found in a Cousins Avenue development, or in the Forum in Peachtree Corners - with an urban twist.

[Fiorenza]

Tenants at The Forum Peachtree Corners: Acorn, Anne Taylor Loft, April Cornell, Atlanta Beach, Belly Boutique Maternity, Chico's, Coldwater Creek, Express, Fabrik, High Country Outfitters, J. Crew, J Jill the Store, K La, Liz Claiborne, Marmi, New Balance, Old Navy, Orvis, Talbots, Victoria's Secret, White House Black Market, J Hartrington, Chickweeds Limited, Pottery Barn Kids, Pottery Barn

[Fiorenza]

More Forum retailers and restaurants: Bombay, Pier 1 Kids, Designer Antiques, Linens-N-Things, Pier 1, Storehouse, Harry and David, Linens-N-Things, Omaha Steaks, The Grape, Williams-Sonoma, Bath & Body Works, Brighton Collectibles, Swoozie's, Cingular, Barnes& Noble, EB Games, Wolf Camera, Courtyard Flowers and Gifts, Ship Its, Spa Sydell, The Eye Gallery, Van Michael, Atlanta Bread Co., Caribou Coffee, grace 1720, J. Alexander's, Jason's Deli, Mambo Italiano, Moe's Southwest Grill, Great American Cookies Bakery, Ted's Montana Grill, Thai Spice.

[Fiorenza]

That's a realistic group of establishments for the Midtown Mile.

[Andrea]

That's a realistic group of establishments for the Midtown Mile.

Yeah, that would be super, Fiorenza!

I don't know anything about creating retail spaces but I once heard a guy who'd developed several shopping centers say that what major retailers are looking for is a space they consider "safe" -- i.e., not only in terms of physical security and an area which is perceived as low crime, but a location where they can be fairly certain there will be plenty of other retail establishments which attract similar customers. He said that's one of the reasons they tend to congregate in malls.

[MidtownMile]

I'm most worried about the ability of the Mile to actually attract the type of tenants they want. In its present state (and even after most projects are done) the only part that will have the physical quality that retailers demand will be the two blocks around 1010 Peachtree. Of course, it's to be expected because Selig, unlike Novare, Hines, etc, actually builds retail and has a whole team of in-house staff who know what the stores want - namely crtical mass (150,000 sf) of continuous, street-oriented storefronts.

My fear is that the rest of the Mile, in the forseable future, will be restaurants, which is something Midtown doesn't need any more of, IMO. This would be an unhealthy mix. Unfortunately, with the broken-tooth, fragmented nature of retail on the rest of the corridor, restaurants (which are destinations and don't require co-tenancy) are the only things that WILL work well there.

I think you are right with that for the most part. I will give Novare a bit of credit with Viewpoint, but it is a bit more of an "about time" argument. And, even with that, there is a potential issue with the Starbucks. However, having said that, I think the situation is easily rectifiable. If Selig pulls those people in and 10th and Peachtree becomes the epicenter it could be, I would assume that Novare will catch on and pull a 999, retooling the fronts to work more directly with the desires of the retail. Spire will be tough with the 7th front, but there is good potential for some boutique-like shops along that stretch. Those also make great quick restaurant spots (which a tenant is better than no tenant), and being "off Peachtree" is ok for that.

I think if ViewPoint can finish off its block and can do something with the Metropolis spots, there is good hope, especially if 12th & Midtown becomes the destination that stores want.

[atl2phx]

I'm most worried about the ability of the Mile to actually attract the type of tenants they want. In its present state (and even after most projects are done) the only part that will have the physical quality that retailers demand will be the two blocks around 1010 Peachtree. Of course, it's to be expected because Selig, unlike Novare, Hines, etc, actually builds retail and has a whole team of in-house staff who know what the stores want - namely crtical mass (150,000 sf) of continuous, street-oriented storefronts.

My fear is that the rest of the Mile, in the forseable future, will be restaurants, which is something Midtown doesn't need any more of, IMO. This would be an unhealthy mix. Unfortunately, with the broken-tooth, fragmented nature of retail on the rest of the corridor, restaurants (which are destinations and don't require co-tenancy) are the only things that WILL work well there.

ok, first it was greenspace vs. retail, now it's food and drink vs. resturaunts. LOL...terminus...please know i'm not being adversarial, it's just my thought process -- i admit i'm no expert on these topics, just a marketing guy interested from the sidelines.

if i had to choose, i would go with restauraunts and bars as the majority over retail in midtown. not that food and drink is a better fiscal investment for midtown, but i think it has a more intimate, personal and lucrative "feel". to be more specific, i guess i'd much rather ask friends to meet at a winebar in one of viewpoints retail slots than going to shopping there for designer underwear. from a "utility" perspective, establishments that bring people together and create memories seem to serve as a precursor to retail that draws enough attention to the area that ultimately gives birth to retail.

not sure if it's a valid parallel, but i was in high school when virginia highlands seemed to catch on in the mid-80's. does anyone recall -- wasn't it mostly drink and dining before the retail caugh on in the highlands?

[Andrea]

not sure if it's a valid parallel, but i was in high school when virginia highlands seemed to catch on in the mid-80's. does anyone recall -- wasn't it mostly drink and dining before the retail caugh on in the highlands?

Much of the activity in VA-Highland was food and drink. There was retail, too, although a number of the shops were kind of boutique type places. We did have a grocery store, a couple of hardware stores, a drugstore, laundry, etc.

[Terminus]

not sure if it's a valid parallel, but i was in high school when virginia highlands seemed to catch on in the mid-80's. does anyone recall -- wasn't it mostly drink and dining before the retail caugh on in the highlands?

I'm very good friends with the man that has owned the NW intersection of Virginia at Highland for decades. The only reason that block is not filled with restaurants is because he made an active decision NOT to lease to them out of a desire to create a viable retail district.

The big problem with restaurants is that most retailers don't want to be around restaurants. They want to be around other retailers. Restaurants also require a signficiant upgrade in the space they occupy, which becomes cost prohibitive to convert back to retail when it has failed (as 90% of restaurants do within 5 years). So once a place becomes a restaurant, it's very unlikely to ever convert back to a retail space unless.

[smArTaLlone]

Yeah, that would be super, Fiorenza!

I don't know anything about creating retail spaces but I once heard a guy who'd developed several shopping centers say that what major retailers are looking for is a space they consider "safe" -- i.e., not only in terms of physical security and an area which is perceived as low crime, but a location where they can be fairly certain there will be plenty of other retail establishments which attract similar customers. He said that's one of the reasons they tend to congregate in malls.

This is exactly the same thing Terminus is saying.

Thus the plan for retail along a mile of Peachtree street.

[Fiorenza]

That is correct - at least, based on my layman's observation of successful shopping streets. The restaurants should be kept on the fringes or side streets. An analogous situation is with malls that have a food court somewhat separated from the non-food retailers.

[MidtownMile]

Yes, this is true. But, it depends on the retailers perspective. A few destination restaurants are good for browsing, impulse buy shops or for destination stores (since they will complement each other). But, too many restaurants will lower the area. I actually would prefer to see the shopping district of the Midtown Mile be focused more from a nice renovation to COlony Sq. at 14 down to about Metropolis and then transition over. The restaurant space comes first, and the current set up in several areas isn't good for retail.

But, at this point, I want to see the slots filled, and preferably with some new stores SOMEWHERE on the mile.

[NativeAtlantan]

what's the deal with South Beach? that stretch is probably 80% restaurants and then 10% hotels with the rest "other". how is that stretch so active and viable?

[dante2308]

Its a beach. You can tell by its name. Plus its a gay haven.

[gttx]

Its a beach. You can tell by its name. Plus its a gay haven.

Seriously? You pose a convincing argument...

[dante2308]

Tourist spots like South Beach should not be coveted as urban planning successes just because they attract a lot of pedestrians. Atlanta cannot simply build a sidewalk along a beach and watch restaurants and condos pop up on their own and thrive. If you want me to extrapolate, that is what the post above meant.

Anyway, more on topic, really all Midtown's Mile is trying to accomplish is its own version of the Magnificent Mile. I wish it the best, but I think it will take some time for the area to evolve. Its hard to support so much high end retail with the current state of housing in the area. Lenox and Phillip's Plaza all sport a certian amount of high end retail and are located in an arguably wealthier part of town. The suburbanites are currently more likely to go to Buckhead for shopping if coming intown at all.

Even a midtown population of 50-60 thousand can hardly support 1 million square feet of high-end retail so what really need to happen is for the Midtown Mile to somehow draw away from the Lenox area and become a destination for the out-of-town crowd. That will take a huge amount of retail followed by a huge advertising campaign and unfortunately, because we have to wait for developers and condos to go up, it will take years to develop retail to that critical level. In the mean time, visitors will be underwhelmed.

[AtlFan]

New Women's Wear Daily article online and posted today: http://www.midtownmile.com/Docs/WWD_07_05_07.pdf

Discuss?

[SAV]

Tourist spots like South Beach should not be coveted as urban planning successes just because they attract a lot of pedestrians. Atlanta cannot simply build a sidewalk along a beach and watch restaurants and condos pop up on their own and thrive. If you want me to extrapolate, that is what the post above meant.

Anyway, more on topic, really all Midtown's Mile is trying to accomplish is its own version of the Magnificent Mile. I wish it the best, but I think it will take some time for the area to evolve. Its hard to support so much high end retail with the current state of housing in the area. Lenox and Phillip's Plaza all sport a certian amount of high end retail and are located in an arguably wealthier part of town. The suburbanites are currently more likely to go to Buckhead for shopping if coming intown at all.

Even a midtown population of 50-60 thousand can hardly support 1 million square feet of high-end retail so what really need to happen is for the Midtown Mile to somehow draw away from the Lenox area and become a destination for the out-of-town crowd. That will take a huge amount of retail followed by a huge advertising campaign and unfortunately, because we have to wait for developers and condos to go up, it will take years to develop retail to that critical level. In the mean time, visitors will be underwhelmed.

Thats why sometimes I don't know about this Midtown Mile thing. I mean it sounds good but if it turns out bad......its gonna be REAL BAD. Like other cities are gonna say "Atlanta tried to copy Chicago and failed" or something like that.

[Fiorenza]

We could start out with a more modest selection of retail and gradually improve...

[Tombstoner]

I think Midtown Mile can only succeed if it is a somewhat quirkier, edgier, hipper version of Magnificent Mile -- the Magnificent Mile concept actually works much better in Buckhead in terms of demographics. I do think South Beach is a better model for Midtown; heavy on the restaurant and entertainment stuff and some non-chain shopping. It would have to be distinctive to draw suburbanites deeper into the city; they can go to Pottery Barn anywhere.

[trvlr70]

Thats why sometimes I don't know about this Midtown Mile thing. I mean it sounds good but if it turns out bad......its gonna be REAL BAD. Like other cities are gonna say "Atlanta tried to copy Chicago and failed" or something like that.

I agree. You shouldn't try to copy another city. It never works and ultimately makes you look pathetic.

I also don't see high end stores leaving Phipps and Lenox. And let's face it, Atlanta cannot aford both.

[smArTaLlone]

New Women's Wear Daily article online and posted today: http://www.midtownmile.com/Docs/WWD_07_05_07.pdf

Discuss?

Sounds like Urban Outfitters is interested. That'll be a good start.

[ATLssMania]

Sounds like Urban Outfitters is interested. That'll be a good start.

Is Sixth and Peachtree the Hines Project? Or is it something on that parking lot across from CVS?

[jobe]

Is Sixth and Peachtree the Hines Project? Or is it something on that parking lot across from CVS?

It's Novare's Viewpoint project.

[dante2308]

I think the Midtown Mile can work in time. The population of the area just needs to develop a bit. Lenox and Phillip's Plaza are well attended and so we really don't know the extent of the market for high-end retail. I think the key will be to draw in the crowds with more than just the shops, the arts center, and the Fox. I think the Midtown Mile should open with a huge new civic building. Something like the aquarium which received global acclaim when it opened and was a huge boost to the surrounding area. The Symphony Center might do the trick, but it will still need a huge advertising campaign and retail product already in place.

The problem will being building up the retail from nearly scratch. The indoor/outdoor mall concept builds it all at once so retailer know there will always be a captive audience of shoppers walking by. The Mile is trying to force something that more or less grows organically. It can work, but it'll take some of that good ole Atlanta hype to pull through the first few years.

[RobMidtowner]

Atlanta Business Chronicle - 4:30 PM EDT Tuesday, May 8, 2007by Lisa R. SchoolcraftStaff Writer
Atlanta developer Cousins Properties Inc. has tweaked its plans for Fox Plaza in Midtown.

Cousins (NYSE: CUZ) now plans to develop a mixed-use project that includes a 30-story 208 condominium units, 650,000 square feet of office space and 26,800 square feet of street-level retail space at 615 Peachtree St. site near the Fox Theatre.

The 2.4-acre development is bounded by Ponce de Leon Avenue, Juniper Street, North Avenue and Peachtree Street.

Cousins initially planned a 30-story, 210-unit high-rise condo tower called The Premiere at Fox Plaza on the southwest corner of Ponce de Leon Avenue and Juniper Street. It also proposed another building at Fox Plaza, a combination of office, hotel, residential or retail uses facing Peachtree Street.

But increased demand for commercial space forced Cousins officials to rethink and redraw their plans last fall.

The office tower is now slated for Peachtree Street and North Avenue, said Matt Gove, Cousins vice president of corporate communications. The company has not determined now many stories the office tower will be, nor when vertical construction will begin.

"Market conditions will dictate which tower starts first," Gove said. "We're still clearing the site and removing debris."

Cousins is nearing completion of its Terminus office project at Peachtree and Piedmont roads in Buckhead and has begun construction on a condo tower behind it.

[smArTaLlone]

Is Sixth and Peachtree the Hines Project? Or is it something on that parking lot across from CVS?

Actually that's on the lot south of Viewpoint. According to the Midtown Alliance its being developed by Cartel Properties.

[smArTaLlone]

This is an encouraging article about 12th & Midtown

At the Heart of Midtown (http://www.12thandmidtown.com/pdf/ShoppingCenterBiznessMay07.pdf)

[cokezero]

This is an encouraging article about 12th & Midtown

At the Heart of Midtown (http://www.12thandmidtown.com/pdf/ShoppingCenterBiznessMay07.pdf)

There was also a very UN-encouraging quote in that article by Shirley Gouffon, Senior Vice President for Selig.

“We are developing the parking so that it is accessible to the retail stores as well,” says Gouffon. “All of the retailers will have entrances to the street, as well as to the parking decks.”

Doesn't SPI-16 or some other zoning regulation prohibit this (having interior entrances to your "street front" retail space)?

[Curious Atlantan]

There was also a very UN-encouraging quote in that article by Shirley Gouffon, Senior Vice President for Selig.

“We are developing the parking so that it is accessible to the retail stores as well,” says Gouffon. “All of the retailers will have entrances to the street, as well as to the parking decks.”

Doesn't SPI-16 or some other zoning regulation prohibit this (having interior entrances to your "street front" retail space)?

Oh man this is so stupid. The Starbucks in the Lindbergh Plaza development has the street entrance locked, only the parking lot entrance is open. What's wrong with people in this town???

[busterrobertson]

alright i think that we will be seeing higher end stores than some of yall think. they are hyping this up to compete with madison and michigan ave, which means that normal stores are not going to cut it and make it like that. and even look at the style of how they are portraying the project of 12th and midtown. That is not the style for crate and barrel. that is more of the style that you would see in the shopping capitals of the world.

i agree with you the at stores like H&M, apple, victoria's secret and all this middle to upper end stores will be needed. but there is going to be stores like ralph lauren, brooks brothers, escada, gucci, and others.

i think the street will resemble newberry st. in boston. it has a mixture of very very high end stores as well as the average stores. and those that argue that there is phipps and lennox that has all the expensive highend stores a few miles up the road and companies will not want to make another store a few miles down the road. but look at dallas and boston. boston has 2 ralph laurens within 2 blocks of each other. one is a mall and on the street. dallas has highland park village where they have highend stores that are also in the northpark mall a few miles up the expressway. and phipps and lennox would not suffer because they still have the shoppers of atlanta. i think the midtown mile will definently be more for the visitors rather than the actual city of atlanta.

but as someone has said before, restaurants are going to be crucial for this area of town. that is why the highland park village in dallas has been able to do so well for the region. restaurants are going to get the attention of people to come to the area and then go to the other stores.

a street level highend district is crucial for atlanta to raise itself on the ranks of the other cities in the country.

[catlike]

Oh man this is so stupid. The Starbucks in the Lindbergh Plaza development has the street entrance locked, only the parking lot entrance is open. What's wrong with people in this town???

...much like the Kroger at Brookwood. :rant:

[MidtownMile]

alright i think that we will be seeing higher end stores than some of yall think. they are hyping this up to compete with madison and michigan ave, which means that normal stores are not going to cut it and make it like that. and even look at the style of how they are portraying the project of 12th and midtown. That is not the style for crate and barrel. that is more of the style that you would see in the shopping capitals of the world.

i agree with you the at stores like H&M, apple, victoria's secret and all this middle to upper end stores will be needed. but there is going to be stores like ralph lauren, brooks brothers, escada, gucci, and others.

i think the street will resemble newberry st. in boston. it has a mixture of very very high end stores as well as the average stores. and those that argue that there is phipps and lennox that has all the expensive highend stores a few miles up the road and companies will not want to make another store a few miles down the road. but look at dallas and boston. boston has 2 ralph laurens within 2 blocks of each other. one is a mall and on the street. dallas has highland park village where they have highend stores that are also in the northpark mall a few miles up the expressway. and phipps and lennox would not suffer because they still have the shoppers of atlanta. i think the midtown mile will definently be more for the visitors rather than the actual city of atlanta.

but as someone has said before, restaurants are going to be crucial for this area of town. that is why the highland park village in dallas has been able to do so well for the region. restaurants are going to get the attention of people to come to the area and then go to the other stores.

a street level highend district is crucial for atlanta to raise itself on the ranks of the other cities in the country.


While I understand your sentiment, I actually disagree. At the moment, the only viable option for stores like Crate & Barrel, H&M, etc. to go intown is Midtown (including Atlantic Station). Those stores, by design, serve the residents much more than visitors. Buckhead is going highbrown (even moreso than before). While I think Kenneth Cole, Boss, and perhaps Ralph Lauren will make an appearance in Midtown, I think Gucci, Versace, etc. will stick to Buckhead. And, I think that is good. Buckhead sq. ft. prices have gone up (as the recent article showcases), and only certain stores pay that. Furthermore, big floorspace stores (i.e. furniture) aren't as happy doing so without guaranteed traffic. In Midtown, however, they woudl be unique enough to the intown market and the visitors to draw good foot traffic, and it is more accessible to other suburbanites simply by being near our beloved Andrea Connector. Buckhead can be somewhat cumbersome to reach. Midtown is not. I think it has potential in many directions. One of them just needs to start. And I think the combination of ViewPoint and 1010 will do just that in about 12 months.

[sabino86]

While I understand your sentiment, I actually disagree. At the moment, the only viable option for stores like Crate & Barrel, H&M, etc. to go intown is Midtown (including Atlantic Station). Those stores, by design, serve the residents much more than visitors. Buckhead is going highbrown (even moreso than before). While I think Kenneth Cole, Boss, and perhaps Ralph Lauren will make an appearance in Midtown, I think Gucci, Versace, etc. will stick to Buckhead. And, I think that is good. Buckhead sq. ft. prices have gone up (as the recent article showcases), and only certain stores pay that. Furthermore, big floorspace stores (i.e. furniture) aren't as happy doing so without guaranteed traffic. In Midtown, however, they woudl be unique enough to the intown market and the visitors to draw good foot traffic, and it is more accessible to other suburbanites simply by being near our beloved Andrea Connector. Buckhead can be somewhat cumbersome to reach. Midtown is not. I think it has potential in many directions. One of them just needs to start. And I think the combination of ViewPoint and 1010 will do just that in about 12 months.

And don't forget that these high-end stores would have to compete with the Dillard's in Atlantic Station... ;)

[Terminus]

Oh man this is so stupid. The Starbucks in the Lindbergh Plaza development has the street entrance locked, only the parking lot entrance is open. What's wrong with people in this town???

Do they? That's illegal. They can be cited.

[Terminus]

There was also a very UN-encouraging quote in that article by Shirley Gouffon, Senior Vice President for Selig.

“We are developing the parking so that it is accessible to the retail stores as well,” says Gouffon. “All of the retailers will have entrances to the street, as well as to the parking decks.”

Doesn't SPI-16 or some other zoning regulation prohibit this (having interior entrances to your "street front" retail space)?

Zoning does not prohibit an interior entrance too.

As a non-drive, I really don't find two entrances offensive. What is offensive is when you HAVE to go thte back to enter. That is illegal under SPI 16. The stores in Plaza Midtown will have two entrances and it doesn't feel bad to me - I don't feel like a second class citizen.

I think that most of these early retail projects will be over-parked, but when future projects see that the ratios really are lower in the core, they'll follow the lead. I believe that the Hines project at Peachtree and 7th is requesting a special exception to have far less parking than the zoning requires (that part of Midtown has minimum parking requirements because the crazies in the historic part of Midtown to the east were worried that people might park on their streets and walk to Peachtree if parking wasn't provided).

[gttx]

I believe that the Hines project at Peachtree and 7th is requesting a special exception to have far less parking than the zoning requires

Interesting - I still can't believe how much parking is required by zoning for these projects - will we see those numbers come down any time soon?

Also, Terminus, when do you think we can expect to hear something about this Hines project? It's been rumored for a long time, but nothing really concrete has been said about it. I'd love to see that lot get developed very soon.

[Terminus]

Interesting - I still can't believe how much parking is required by zoning for these projects - will we see those numbers come down any time soon?

Also, Terminus, when do you think we can expect to hear something about this Hines project? It's been rumored for a long time, but nothing really concrete has been said about it. I'd love to see that lot get developed very soon.

The parking is only REQUIRED west of Peachtree and south of 10th (that means within the area both west of Peachtree AND south of 10th, for those of you who don't understand zoning lingo). Everywhere else there is a parking cap. Unfortunately, it's too high, IMO. If I were in control I would keep the caps but mandate unbundled parking - meaning that all parking would be sold and rented separately and optionally from the contract rent. This tends to lower parking demand by 20% because it forces people actually recognize how much parking (and car ownership) costs.

[cokezero]

Zoning does not prohibit an interior entrance too.

As a non-drive, I really don't find two entrances offensive. What is offensive is when you HAVE to go thte back to enter. That is illegal under SPI 16. The stores in Plaza Midtown will have two entrances and it doesn't feel bad to me - I don't feel like a second class citizen.

So even though these stores will have front and rear entrances, SPI-16 prevents them from ultimatelyy closing their front entrances like the Brookwood Kroger?

[Curious Atlantan]

Do they? That's illegal. They can be cited.

Yes, last time I was there the front door was locked. I asked them why they keep it locked and they said it was because they were instructed to do so by the manager which was not there. It is good to know it is illegal, I will tell them next time if they still have it locked.

[Andrea]

So even though these stores will have front and rear entrances, SPI-16 prevents them from ultimatelyy closing their front entrances like the Brookwood Kroger?

This is from the Lindbergh (SPI-15) ordinance:

Sec. 16-18O.014.

***
3. The primary pedestrian entrance for pedestrians to access all sidewalk level uses and business establishments with street frontage:
a. Shall face and be visible from the street. When located adjacent to a storefront street, said entrance shall face and be visible from such street.
b. Shall be directly accessible and visible from the sidewalk.
c. Shall remain unlocked during business hours for nonresidential uses.

[smArTaLlone]

So even though these stores will have front and rear entrances, SPI-16 prevents them from ultimatelyy closing their front entrances like the Brookwood Kroger?

Why would they ever close the front entrances? That would defeat the whole purpose of the "Midtown Mile" and I don't think the kind of retailers they're seeking would be intrested in such a store.

I'm really not seeing the problem with this.

[sabino86]

Why would they ever close the front entrances? That would defeat the whole purpose of the "Midtown Mile" and I don't think the kind of retailers they're seeking would be intrested in such a store.

I'm really not seeing the problem with this.

Maybe they are afraid that pedestrian traffic is "lesser" than shoppers who drive.

[Andrea]

Maybe they are afraid that pedestrian traffic is "lesser" than shoppers who drive.

I'm sure that's part of it. I've also heard some retailers claim it's a security issue. Too easy for people to walk out the front door, I guess.

Yet in other cities you see zillions of stores with street front entrances and they seem to do okay. Street front entrances used to be the rule in Atlanta, too, for that matter. I think the bottom line is that we're just an ultra car oriented kind of place.

[smArTaLlone]

Maybe they are afraid that pedestrian traffic is "lesser" than shoppers who drive.

Or that they simply want to make as convenient as possible to as many people as possible.

[sabino86]

Or that they simply want to make as convenient as possible to as many people as possible.

Under that rationale, wouldn't it make sense then to keep all the doors unlocked?

[MidtownMile]

Yes. This Starbucks thing is an odd one. Their stores are known for multiple entrances, they have very low "walk-off"-able merchandise, and they are often run in high pedestrian areas. I think it may have just been bad management.

Also, when did the Brookwood Kroger start shutting it's door? I remember it being open awhile ago.

Anyway, cultures take time to change. But, it can be done. After all, our city's success has been proof of that! :D

[RobMidtowner]

:previous:

The Broookwood Kroger didn't shut it's doors facing the street....it has no doors facing the street. I went there the other day during lunch and had to walk around and through the parking lot to get in. :koko:

It looks really pretty and all from the street, but the reality is that the back of the store is fronting Peachtree. :yuck:

[Fiorenza]

C'mon - it's not rocket science. Retailers don't have such a great net profit and they have to be risk minimizers these days. This city is loaded with a bunch of primitive thugs & thieves, and the cops can't or won't provide enough protection. Retailers have to either control access to their stores, or go out of business and create more empty storefronts. Sorry, I love Atlanta but it's a jungle. It needs more diversity...that is, more honest people and fewer junkies and thieves.

[MarketsWork]

Sorry, I love Atlanta but it's a jungle. It needs more diversity...that is, more honest people and fewer junkies and thieves.

Well said, and I agree wholeheartedly.

[RobMidtowner]

C'mon - it's not rocket science. Retailers don't have such a great net profit and they have to be risk minimizers these days. This city is loaded with a bunch of primitive thugs & thieves, and the cops can't or won't provide enough protection. Retailers have to either control access to their stores, or go out of business and create more empty storefronts. Sorry, I love Atlanta but it's a jungle. It needs more diversity...that is, more honest people and fewer junkies and thieves.

Designing a store with controlled access to both the street and the parking lot is not rocket science either Fiorenza. And ok, maybe I could understand your point about thugs & thieves in certain parts of the city, but come on...at the Brookwood Kroger??? Have you ever even been there??

[smArTaLlone]

Under that rationale, wouldn't it make sense then to keep all the doors unlocked?

OK you've lost me. I started out responding to the idea that retailers in Midtown would eventually lock the street front doors which is not permitted and is inconsistent with the planned street-level shopping district.

[Andrea]

Designing a store with controlled access to both the street and the parking lot is not rocket science either Fiorenza. And ok, maybe I could understand your point about thugs & thieves in certain parts of the city, but come on...at the Brookwood Kroger??? Have you ever even been there??

What, you're claiming that Brookwood isn't full of thugs and thieves? That's one scary hood.

:haha:

[catlike]

:previous:

The Broookwood Kroger didn't shut it's doors facing the street....it has no doors facing the street. I went there the other day during lunch and had to walk around and through the parking lot to get in. :koko:

It looks really pretty and all from the street, but the reality is that the back of the store is fronting Peachtree. :yuck:

There is, in fact, a door (it's easy to miss, though, if you're not looking hard enough). It has a sign that says something like "Closed--please go around to the main entrance." There was also an express lane just inside the door, but, of course, that's gone now.

[Andrea]

It almost seems like there's a mindset in Atlanta that says if you didn't drive to the store then you have no business being there. At the very least, you're suspect until you walk around the building and enter via the parking lot like a normal person.

[(four 0 four)]

:previous:

The Broookwood Kroger didn't shut it's doors facing the street....it has no doors facing the street. I went there the other day during lunch and had to walk around and through the parking lot to get in. :koko:

It looks really pretty and all from the street, but the reality is that the back of the store is fronting Peachtree. :yuck:

They were required to have a door fronting P-tree and kept it open (with a checkout cashier) for a year or so. Its been locked for several months requiring pedestrians to walk, with no sidewalk, through the parking lot and past the loading dock to get into the store. I can't imagine that there was enough foot traffic to warrant paying someone to perch at that entrance all day but locking the door assures this.

[wdarling]

Yes, last time I was there the front door was locked. I asked them why they keep it locked and they said it was because they were instructed to do so by the manager which was not there. It is good to know it is illegal, I will tell them next time if they still have it locked.

That door seems to get locked and unlocked at random. Sometimes it will be open with a cashier there, other times it will be locked without so much as a notice. I've sent complaints/inquiries on it a couple of times and have received replies saying that it will be open but I think they just do it for a couple of days and then stop. I hate having to go all the way around the whole shopping plaza to go in there. Not that I go there much, as there are now closer options for me, but still, yuck.

:shrug:

[sprtsluvr8]

Maybe you could try complaining to the corporate office...consumer affairs or something like that? Might be worth a try...I'm sure they have email.

[ATLian12]

They could put a walmart and people would shop there! I think if they go with practical stores first then try to get a few more upscale but. need to get the traffic going first.