[GTviajero81]

So with the site clearing for the new Aquarius residential tower and with the development around the GA Aquarium here is something to think about...

Imagine if the City were to, somehow (and quite probably miraculously), create high density in the area north of Ivan Allen up to GT, west to the train tracks (Marietta St, heck all the way to Northside if you want) and east to the Connector. Yes, I mean slowly eat up Centennial Place. That is one of the last areas of a gridded street system that isn't protected by historical designations, that is an easy walk to two MARTA stations (North and Civic Centre-or whatever it's called now), and that is centrally located. Now I know that what is there now is WAY better than what used to be (Techwood Homes) but does anyone know if there are any issues for this reality to be realised, i.e., zoning regulations, et. al?

One marketing point could be that the closer that one gets to North Avenue, the better the chance that one's north view would be protected (Georgia Tech isn't going anywhere anytime soon!), thereby increasing land values in the area. There is even enough room to create a park in the centre most block of the district. I am envisioning the name being Centennial Park North - CPN - if you will. This could be one of the toniest areas of Midtown! Throw in a couple European-style roundabouts on both C.O.P. Drive and Luckie Street to enhance traffic flow and we've got ourselves a winner. :) Some requirements would be that all towers would be no less than 20 stories tall, all towers that front COP Dr and Luckie must have ground level retail, and (wait for it!), a streetcar line that would start somewhere around the Howell Mill retail district area and be along the following route: Howell Mill Road to Bishop continuing down 17th through AS, stopping at Arts Centre, continuing down Spring Street, cross the 5th Street Bridge, through GT's campus on C.O.P. Drive all the way down the the Gulch, thereby hopefully spurring development of the Multimodal Centre.

There are so many details in my head but it's so late where I am right now. What do you all think? :)

[Tombstoner]

So with the site clearing for the new Aquarius residential tower and with the development around the GA Aquarium here is something to think about...

Imagine if the City were to, somehow (and quite probably miraculously), create high density in the area north of Ivan Allen up to GT, west to the train tracks (Marietta St, heck all the way to Northside if you want) and east to the Connector. Yes, I mean slowly eat up Centennial Place. That is one of the last areas of a gridded street system that isn't protected by historical designations, that is an easy walk to two MARTA stations (North and Civic Centre-or whatever it's called now), and that is centrally located. Now I know that what is there now is WAY better than what used to be (Techwood Homes) but does anyone know if there are any issues for this reality to be realised, i.e., zoning regulations, et. al?

One marketing point could be that the closer that one gets to North Avenue, the better the chance that one's north view would be protected (Georgia Tech isn't going anywhere anytime soon!), thereby increasing land values in the area. There is even enough room to create a park in the centre most block of the district. I am envisioning the name being Centennial Park North - CPN - if you will. This could be one of the toniest areas of Midtown! Throw in a couple European-style roundabouts on both C.O.P. Drive and Luckie Street to enhance traffic flow and we've got ourselves a winner. :) Some requirements would be that all towers would be no less than 20 stories tall, all towers that front COP Dr and Luckie must have ground level retail, and (wait for it!), a streetcar line that would start somewhere around the Howell Mill retail district area and be along the following route: Howell Mill Road to Bishop continuing down 17th through AS, stopping at Arts Centre, continuing down Spring Street, cross the 5th Street Bridge, through GT's campus on C.O.P. Drive all the way down the the Gulch, thereby hopefully spurring development of the Multimodal Centre.

There are so many details in my head but it's so late where I am right now. What do you all think? :)

And would we drive in coaches pulled by pixies and drink nectar out of buttercups? :haha: Just kidding--very nice vision, but its chances of happening are probably similiar to Georgia Tech's chances of "going somewhere soon."

[Terminus]

For the record, that area you're talking of isn't part of Midtown. Midtown starts at North Avenue. The borders of Midtown are like the borders of Vinings, they just keep growing and growing and growing.

[holladay]

My problem with this vision stems from the fact that Centennial Place is a Hope VI development community. It provides below-market-rate apartments to lots of families who can't afford them. It is one of the most successful public-private joint housing ventures anywhere in the US. You are advocating its destruction for replacement by towers that will presumably be home to thousands of yups.

[Fiorenza]

Da yups are takin' over...there goes the hood...

[mayhem]

My problem with this vision stems from the fact that Centennial Place is a Hope VI development community. It provides below-market-rate apartments to lots of families who can't afford them. It is one of the most successful public-private joint housing ventures anywhere in the US. You are advocating its destruction for replacement by towers that will presumably be home to thousands of yups.

There isn't a shortage of section8 housing in the downtown area. There is also no reason why any new developments could not continue to include low income housing.

[Andrea]

For the record, that area you're talking of isn't part of Midtown. Midtown starts at North Avenue. The borders of Midtown are like the borders of Vinings, they just keep growing and growing and growing.

Exactly.

Although the area he's talking about is not Midtown, I would nonetheless recommend relocating the connector away from the east side of downtown. There's no need for a gigantic suburban cut-through in the middle of the city.

[fisp]

Exactly.

Although the area he's talking about is not Midtown, I would nonetheless recommend relocating the connector away from the east side of downtown. There's no need for a gigantic suburban cut-through in the middle of the city.


you're definitely persistent... i agree. at least i'd like to see it covered up... or flooded; a river in atlanta would be great

[cabasse]

you're definitely persistent... i agree. at least i'd like to see it covered up... or flooded; a river in atlanta would be great

an idea, though crazy, which has been on my mind constantly for the past few months... imagine if the connector was to be turned into a linear lake. two for the price of one; get rid something ugly and create something which would solve an issue - the area's frequent water shortages. one can dream. (and is it not dreams that are the plans of the future)

atlanta; if we don't have it already, we'll f***ing build it!

[holladay]

Centennial Place is only about 11-12 years old. Destroying it would be such a waste of resources. The east side of the connector, between downtown and North Avenue is an area in much greater need of revitalization than Centennial Place. All it has are empty and underutilized blocks and the Northeast Hospital. It's one of the worst districts in the entire urban core. I know development is already starting to occur there but it needs to gain momentum in order to bridge the gap between downtown and midtown.

Right now the preponderance of projects are still in midtown and downtown has a long way to go before it loses its stigma and people find it appealing the way they like midtwon. If the two areas grow together it will only enhance the strength of all the surrounding areas.

Destroying Centennial Place and trying to concentrate development on the west side is counter-productive to this aim. Sure, I admit that in the future it will be critical but I think it's naive to try to jump the gun just because you're tower-hungry and want to build a transit line through Georgia Tech. The westside is a later stage in the game but things will definitely get there eventually.

As for the quips about removing the connector, in a couple more decades or so it may actually be a possibility. Right now, however, Atlanta is still getting its footings set and it would be horrible to kill the city's lifeline before the momentum of intown development is strong enough to occur without the presence of the freeway. I think it will take far more development and much greater population for it to be worthwhile. In the long run it's a great idea, though.

[Andrea]

As for the quips about removing the connector, in a couple more decades or so it may actually be a possibility. Right now, however, Atlanta is still getting its footings set and it would be horrible to kill the city's lifeline before the momentum of intown development is strong enough to occur without the presence of the freeway.

It's not a quip and it's not a lifeline. The connector is a suburban cut-through -- the vast majority of vehicles on it are not bound for downtown but are simply commuters passing through on their way from one suburb to another.

The connector has stymied development in that area, not fostered it. If anything, it served as an escape route from the city in years past, but now it's mainly just a multilane cut-through. Relocating it to the suburbs and replacing it with first class urban boulevards would be a tremendous boon to downtown.

[Fiorenza]

Andrea, I'm sure you don't need me to tell you this, but your dream will not happen. It's like wishing the weather would change for the better. Even as gas becomes too expensive for most people they'll just develop some other form of transportion -- but the interstate highway system in Atlanta isn't going away in the foreseeable future. There's absolutely no political will for it.

[holladay]

Andrea, I understand your argument. I think everyone here recognizes that the connector is a divisive element in the core of Atlanta that has divided east and west and fueled the rampant sprawl Atlanta is notorious for. However, even to this day the city is supported by its main artery. And when I say that I'm not just talking about the urban core. I mean that if you remove the connector you break the most vital thread in Atlanta's infrastructure. The city is, by nature, a transportation hub. It was built on trains, then on land transport, then airplanes. This is just the economic reality of the freeways. The cultural reality is that the freeways are the HEART of the city, more so than any other street, place, neighborhood, etc. The only thing Gwinnett and Cobb have in common is their connection by roads. I-75 and I-85 knit them together. If you take out the road between them they no longer function as a region. This is true of many metros but it is particularly true in Atlanta. Atlanta is not so much a city as it is just an agglomeration of people loosely brought together by the speed and mobility of freeways; the city is a landscape laced into a giant 6-sided X looped by a big O. I say this not with criticism but with intrigue, because in truth I find the city's urban environment fascinating and vibrant. The 'Atlanta Condition'
- if we may call it that - is not the slow movement of the central city as you navigate the old streets and stop at red lights and pass through intimate neighborhoods. In actuality, the Atlanta Condition is the world of the suburbanites. The soccer moms who live on 316 in Lawrenceville and careen down I-85 to Jimmy Carter Blvd to run an errand and then jet up to the Mall of Georgia at exit 115 to do some shopping. Or the dad who lives in Marietta but has an office job on 400 up at Holcomb Bridge and spends each day breezing up and down I-75 and 285. The vast majority of the 900,000 people that Atlanta added this decade are living in THIS Atlanta, not the Atlanta that you and I and other forumers know well. There is really no way to curtail the rampant suburban expansion until the public has a change of heart. But taking out the highway actually would actually destroy the city because it would mean that the millions of connections people make each day across the metro would no longer be possible. Furthermore, as any Atlantan knows, having no Connector would mean no more fantastic urban drives through the heart of the city where you get to see the beautiful linear skyline unfold as you advance through Midtown and Downtown. Surely, everyone would miss that. Of course maybe a tree-lined boulevard like Lake Shore Dr in Chicago might work but still, it wouldnt be the same.

Now, saying all of this, I do still think that the time may come for Atlanta to lose its highway. In an America of the future maybe even the suburbanites will live closer to work and drive less. Maybe in that future the city will have 800,000 or 1,000,000 people like some predict. Maybe by then it will all work out. But right now is not the time. People still need to be able to get into Atlanta and move through it and around it. It's how the city flows, it's how it moves. You can't just ignore that and expect that things will mend themselves suddenly. People who live as close as Howell Mill and Moores Mill and N. Druid Hills take the connector to get into town. If you took that road out and they all had to pile on surface streets the city would be so clogged itd be like the Braves were constantly playing a home game.

[MarketsWork]

realm0854, that is one of the most thoughtful and informed replies I've ever read on this forum. With all dreams and emotions aside, I think you hit the nail on the head. Well said, and well put.

[Tombstoner]

I also completely agree with realm0854, even if I'm not as sanguine about it as (s)he seems to be--the Connector is, indeed, a defining feature of the Atlanta Condition, but I can't cheerfully embrace it (not that realm0854 is embracing it, but (s)he seems resigned in a slightly more upbeat fashion :)). Given that the Connector is, and really must be, a fact of life, I think we could profitably change the question from "do we get rid of it or not?", to "can we make a silk purse out of this sow's ear?" (though maybe we should settle for a mock-suede purse...). Are there ways to capitalize on this huge swath of asphalt that runs right through the city? Are there noise-reduction technologies that Atlanta could be on the forefront of? Can the "banks" of the Connector be terraced and serious trees/gardens be planted creating the effect of a Lakeshore Drive? Can more wide bridges like the 5th street be built to practically eliminate the divide? Can a high-tech plexiglas pedestrian bridge be built (like the one they've just installed at the Grand Canyon) that could create the sensation of being suspended in the air? That (rather than this crappy Arch d'Ikea) would be a monument to Atlanta! Maybe none of these are great ideas, but I think the Connector could present some exciting opportunities for Atlanta if we are bold enough to insist that the Connector is not just another souless freeway-qua-historical-accident. To the barricades!!! :tup:

[Curious Atlantan]

There are many examples of successful removals of inner city freeways in the US, among which the Westside Highway in NYC, the San Francisco Embarcadero freeway, Milwaukee's Park East freeway, and so on. Almost every time the traffic that had used the freeways simply disappeared.
There is an interesting discussion about this issue in the Transportation forum:

http://forum.skyscraperpage.com/showthread.php?t=128057

It is true that alternatives like public transportation and good street grid need to exist before removing highways, but I agree that if Atlanta keeps developing like it does today and a certain density is reached sometime in the future, that highway needs to go.

[sprtsluvr8]

It's not a quip and it's not a lifeline. The connector is a suburban cut-through -- the vast majority of vehicles on it are not bound for downtown but are simply commuters passing through on their way from one suburb to another.

The connector has stymied development in that area, not fostered it. If anything, it served as an escape route from the city in years past, but now it's mainly just a multilane cut-through. Relocating it to the suburbs and replacing it with first class urban boulevards would be a tremendous boon to downtown.

While I don't think it's a good idea to place a large highway through in-town neighborhoods, I also don't believe that the connector mostly serves as a cut through between suburbs. I can't believe that a large number of people do a daily drive from Dunwoody to Riverdale, or Peachtree City to Sandy Springs. I do think the connector is used by MANY people who work downtown and live in the suburbs, and I know it is often used by people who live in the city to go from one end of town to the other...I'm one of them. But it just doesn't seem realistic to me that the majority of cars on the connector are cutting through without an in-town destination. Who in their right mind would do that?

[CityFan]

Believe it or not. Downtown connector is the product of lots of studies and plans done by experts in the earlier days. Atlanta has benefited and will continue to benefit from downtown connector.

[sprtsluvr8]

I believe that Atlanta benefits from the connector...I just don't believe that the majority of its traffic isn't headed toward an intown destination.

[Toxostoma Rufum]

The solution isn't making the connector go away, the solution is for another orbital far far outside of 285 so that a truck going from TN or the Midwest to Georgia or back never comes anywhere near commuters, and that people driving from Florida to the North or back never come anywhere near the commuters. That is the ultimate solution...I want commuter rail, but the real solution to Atlanta traffic is getting INTERSTATE traffic away from Atlanta, not getting Metro Atlanta Commuters off their roads.

Florida should be paying greater Atlanta counties a tax for the time we lose in traffic...it's bad enough that they steal our water.

[Andrea]

Andrea, I understand your argument.

realm, I appreciate what you are saying but actually you are not understanding my argument at all. Freeways are fine for people who prefer to use them (and pay for them). But they should likewise be located in those areas where the folks who use them live and work, rather than ramming through other areas. Urban areas in particular are ill suited to the suburban freeway, and suffer mightily from them.

In Atlanta, this would simply mean re-routing the freeways away from downtown and putting them in the suburban neighborhoods where their users work and live. These concrete cut-throughs have very little utility for downtown, yet as matters currently stand that is where their burden falls.

If you look back at the Lochner plan from the mid-1940's (and earlier plans) under which the expressways were originally laid out, several things will become apparent.

First is the fact that 60 years ago it was envisioned that Downtown would remain the center of employment, and that it would be ringed by suburbs with workers commuting into the central city. Needless to say, that is not what happened in Atlanta. Even by the late 1950's, Atlanta's employment and housing began to shift north, and that migration picked up enormous momentum in the decades thereafter. Today a very small percentage of Atlanta's jobs are located Downtown, and many who hold those jobs walk, take the train or the bus, or live close to downtown and have no need for the Connector. I worked downtown for 10 years and never once used the Connector to go to or from work, and that was true for almost everyone in our company.

Secondly -- and this is extremely important -- the original Lochner plan was not merely a plan for highways. It also contemplated a passenger rail line encircling the city in the approximate area where the BeltLine is being proposed now. Although many assume that Atlanta was planned as an auto dependent city, that is not the case. The early planners envisioned a complete transportation system for the city, not merely a bunch of expressways. Sadly, the focus shifted to highways alone as jobs, residents, schools and shopping began migrating to suburbia, and the rail line was never built. Current discussions regarding the BeltLine suggest that we may see something along these lines done in the next 20-30 years but that’s a long time to wait. And there’s no reason to think that the Connector will somehow magically get better during those decades.

Thirdly, when I-285 was proposed, it was also to be flanked by a rail line. It was expected that this highway/rail combination would serve as the primary inter-suburban connector. Likewise, that never happened.

Fourthly, it was expected that the I-285 highway/rail system would define the urban boundaries of Atlanta. That did not happen either. By the time 285 was constructed, the massive shift to the north was a fait accompli, and the rail line was never even attempted.

Fifthly, the freeway system was specifically designed to destroy large sections of the city. You can guess which areas were targeted. Some of this was carried out in the name of urban renewal, although the renewal never took place. Another expressly stated element of the design was to create physical barriers between different sections of the city. These parts of the plan did succeed, but I believe they were extremely negative developments for the city.

With regard to the argument that the downtown Connector is somehow essential to survival of the city, consider this. Atlanta’s greatest growth occurred before the Connector was built. Between 1900 and 1910, the city's population grew from 89,000 to 150,000. In the next decade it grew to 200,000, despite a fire that destroyed 73 city blocks and put General Sherman’s blaze to shame. In the 1920’s Atlanta’s population boomed to 270,000.

By the end of the 1950’s, it had leaped to 487,000! DESPITE the completion of the Connector, and the entire radial interstate highway system, the Perimeter highway, and the frequent widening (by several orders of magnitude) of all those highways over the next 40 years, the city LOST population. In fact, it lost nearly 100,000 residents! The devastating impact on Downtown becomes even more apparent when you take into account the fact that despite losing population overall, the city’s population in north Atlanta was growing significantly during this same time frame.

The Connector is not an unalterable fact of life, and many cities have retooled these concrete dinosaurs and relocated them to where they belong. We achieved nearly all of our growth without it. Despite its construction, it has taken us nearly 50 years to regain what has been lost during its existence. Today the Connector has little to do with Downtown itself; instead, it serves mainly as a cut-through for commuters traveling from one suburb to another. There’s certainly nothing wrong with having suburban cut-throughs, but they should simply be placed in the suburbs where their burden falls on those who use them.

[Stratosphere 2020]

Believe it or not. Downtown connector is the product of lots of studies and plans done by experts in the earlier days. Atlanta has benefited and will continue to benefit from downtown connector.

I agree. In addition an under tunnel or make it a river operation will cost a fortune.

[sprtsluvr8]

The connector didn't cause Atlanta's population decline...cities all over the U.S. declined during a certain time period. We can't reverse what has been done to the neighborhoods in Atlanta, and to un-do it would be tragic for the city. It won't happen in my lifetime if it's ever even seriously considered. I've read that you believe the majority of the traffic on the connector is passing through from one suburb to another, but I haven't read how you know this to be true. The majority of traffic has a destination in town; why else would someone cut through downtown? It's not convenient! It's very unpredictable.

[Andrea]

I've read that you believe the majority of the traffic on the connector is passing through from one suburb to another, but I haven't read how you know this to be true. The majority of traffic has a destination in town; why else would someone cut through downtown?

Er, because that's where they built the road?

If you don't realize that the bulk of the vehicles on the Connector are simply suburban cut-throughs, let me make a few suggestions:

1. Check out the traffic counts.

2. Drive the connector and carefully note where people get on and off. You'll see with your own eyes that the vast majority of cars are passing through rather than heading to downtown as a destination. For example, if you're traveling northbound, you literally can't even get off the connector once you pass 5th Street until you get all the way to Buckhead. Or consider this photo and you'll note that almost all the southbound traffic is entering the Connector from I-75 and I-85 NORTH of Midtown. This is typical evening traffic -- these are not people commuting into work. They're commuters from the northern suburbs heading home to suburbs south, east and west of downtown.

http://farm1.static.flickr.com/159/429664345_9c7010c321_b.jpg

3. Bear in mind that probably 10% or so of metro Atlanta jobs are in downtown. Then subtract out all the people who live downtown and can walk to work, all the people who ride MARTA trains or buses to work in downtown, all the people who ride other buses into downtown, and all people who commute in on the dozens of surface streets.

I don't think the Connector was the only reason Atlanta lost population in the decades after it was built, although it unquestionably destroyed large areas of the city, divided other areas, and was clearly an escape route from the city.

My point, however, is that the argument that the Connector somehow helped the city or "served as a lifeline" simply doesn't hold water. Atlanta's growth occurred BEFORE the Connector; despite its construction and despite repeated widening and tweaking, the city lost 100,000 residents during the 40 years AFTER it was built. (And remember that during those 40 years of population loss, the areas within the northern part of the city limits experienced significant growth). If that's a lifeline, then don't throw one like that to me!

[holladay]

MarketsWork, Tombstoner... thanks for your nice comments!

Andrea, yes I am aware of most of the things you said. I studied the connector at GT under Mike Dobbins, former lead planner for the city of Atlanta at the time of the Olympics. I have two comments in response.

1) Virtually everything you said is historical information about what happened and failed to happen back when the connector was planned and built. I was trying to describe the current state of Atlanta relative to all these goings-on of the past. What I said may not be ideal but it more accurately reflects the conditions we actually have to deal with.

2) Where do you suggest routing a new connector? I don't subscribe to the belief that the Northern Arc or any such additional suburban freeway is a positive addition for central Atlanta and I hope you don't either. Furthermore, if you take out the freeway that brings the 'burbs to the city how do you link the two? Mass-transit, I suspect you'll say. I'm still a skeptic that MARTA will actually work on a broad scale in Atlanta but I'd like to hear your arguments, as well as any other proposals you have.

[Andrea]

Furthermore, if you take out the freeway that brings the 'burbs to the city how do you link the two? Mass-transit, I suspect you'll say.

realm, what I've pointed out is not simply interesting historical artifact. What I've described are the assumptions which were the underpinnings of the Connector when it was first conceived and built, and I've pointed out that those conditions never came to pass. Consequently, we are presently -- and I'm talking about the reality we have to deal with now -- left with a concrete gulch that bears very little actual relationship to our city itself, but instead serves as a cut-through for people traveling from suburb to suburb.

The Connector doesn't function (and again, I'm talking about the reality we have to deal with now) primarily as a means to bring suburban workers into the central city. As I mentioned in response to another post, If you don't realize that the bulk of the vehicles on the Connector are simply suburban cut-throughs, check out some of the facts I've mentioned.

This includes thing such as checking out the traffic counts. Or simply drive the connector systematically and carefully note with your own eyes where people get on and off. Or consider the photographic evidence of the reality we're dealing with now. Or consider the reality of the number of jobs in downtown, and then subtract out all the people who live downtown and can walk to work, all the people who ride MARTA trains or buses to work in downtown, all the people who ride other buses into downtown, and all people who commute in on the dozens of surface streets. THIS is the reality we're living with.

And, no, I don't suggest that mass transit is a magic bullet of some sort. It's part of the solution, but the issue is far more complex. What we're talking about is a way to make the city more accessible, attractive and traversible. The current reality is that we don't have vast numbers of commuters pouring into downtown Atlanta on a 1950's style freeway. We do have vast numbers of commuters PASSING THROUGH downtown Atlanta on a 1950's style freeway, but that does very little to serve the needs of the city.

As to where our suburban freeway connections should be located, how about in the suburbs themselves? Right now, the reality is that there's virtually no difference between the downtown connector and the corresponding segments of I-285. Why not simply beef them up? We've already got plenty of right away there, and there are plenty of arterial roads providing access into downtown for the relative few who need to come in. As part of the relocation process, of course, the arterial roads will need to be upgraded, but the benefit to the city will be enormous.

[ThrashATL]

realm, what I've pointed out is not simply interesting historical artifact. What I've described are the assumptions which were the underpinnings of the Connector when it was first conceived and built, and I've pointed out that those conditions never came to pass. Consequently, we are presently -- and I'm talking about the reality we have to deal with now -- left with a concrete gulch that bears very little actual relationship to our city itself, but instead serves as a cut-through for people traveling from suburb to suburb.

The Connector doesn't function (and again, I'm talking about the reality we have to deal with now) primarily as a means to bring suburban workers into the central city. As I mentioned in response to another post, If you don't realize that the bulk of the vehicles on the Connector are simply suburban cut-throughs, check out some of the facts I've mentioned.

This includes thing such as checking out the traffic counts. Or simply drive the connector systematically and carefully note with your own eyes where people get on and off. Or consider the photographic evidence of the reality we're dealing with now. Or consider the reality of the number of jobs in downtown, and then subtract out all the people who live downtown and can walk to work, all the people who ride MARTA trains or buses to work in downtown, all the people who ride other buses into downtown, and all people who commute in on the dozens of surface streets. THIS is the reality we're living with.

And, no, I don't suggest that mass transit is a magic bullet of some sort. It's part of the solution, but the issue is far more complex. What we're talking about is a way to make the city more accessible, attractive and traversible. The current reality is that we don't have vast numbers of commuters pouring into downtown Atlanta on a 1950's style freeway. We do have vast numbers of commuters PASSING THROUGH downtown Atlanta on a 1950's style freeway, but that does very little to serve the needs of the city.

As to where our suburban freeway connections should be located, how about in the suburbs themselves? Right now, the reality is that there's virtually no difference between the downtown connector and the corresponding segments of I-285. Why not simply beef them up? We've already got plenty of right away there, and there are plenty of arterial roads providing access into downtown for the relative few who need to come in. As part of the relocation process, of course, the arterial roads will need to be upgraded, but the benefit to the city will be enormous.

I want to tear up 400 for the Atlanta idiots driving through Alpharetta on their way to Cumming, since they aren't working in Alpharetta, screw em, let em find another way to work! ;)

[Andrea]

I want to tear up 400 for the Atlanta idiots driving through Alpharetta on their way to Cumming, since they aren't working in Alpharetta, screw em, let em find another way to work! ;)

Heh. Well, if they were running a 16 lane expressway through the middle of downtown Alpharetta just to make it easier for Atlantans and Forsyth Countians to commute between Atlanta and Cumming and it really didn't have any major benefits for Alpharetta, I'd say you have a pretty good point.

Some people here say I'm anti-freeway but I'm not. I'm anti-dumb freeways, and anti the idea that freeways can never be changed, even though the underlying conditions which were thought to justify them several generations ago no longer exist. I'm also anti putting them in your neighbor's backyard so that you can drive across it at high speed on your way to someplace else, especially when you expect your neighbor to pay for this pleasure and he's not getting anything out of it. People who don't understand that are, frankly, just not dealing with the reality we live in.

[MarketsWork]

I want to tear up 400 for the Atlanta idiots driving through Alpharetta on their way to Cumming, since they aren't working in Alpharetta, screw em, let em find another way to work! ;)

I love brilliant satire! :cheers:

[sprtsluvr8]

Your facts are not facts at all, they are opinions. Look up the definition of fact and opinion...It's not like I don't understand your position, I just disagree with it. I think your disdain for the connector drives your estimation that it isn't being used by people in the city.

Who decided that someone from Marietta shouldn't use the connector anyway? All of our taxes pay for roads and highways. People in the burbs have just as much right to drive anywhere they want as we do.

[holladay]

OK, OK, fine Andrea. I get it. The highway was built, the suburbs grew. Then the city declined. Now suburbanites merely pass through the city, leaving the city shortchanged. I agree with you on all of this. But I also think your few scattered population figures and CBD job counts aren't sufficient to explain the full impact of the connector on central Atlanta. Frankly, I don't have a set of tables to come back and use to prove my side. But it isn't always about numbers. There are a host of intangibles involved.

1)Atlanta actively engages the connector by virtue of the way is has grown up along it. Each year the dialogue increases and changes as new developments emerge in Midtown and Atlantic Station. The city is slowly bridging the gap, creating a very interesting and highly unique spatial environment. I guess you believe that freeways can't add character to a place but in Atlanta's case this is highly wrong. Some of the vistas you get along the connector provide the most urban sensations you can experience in the whole Atlanta area.

2) Removing the connector and sending all suburban traffic around 285 will only exacerbate sprawl and increasingly isolate the central city. Contrary to your belief, even through-traffic is a positive thing for the city. Traffic, quite frankly, is the single most important factor in determining an area's stability. Whether it's foot traffic, or car traffic, crowds actually build vitality. Believe me, having 300,000 cars on the connector each day means that Midtown, Downtown and Atlantic Station are billboards reminding suburbanites that "HEY! Atlanta is flashy! Come check it out!" If there was no connector I GUARANTEE they'd be less likely to come to Atlanta because A) it'd be so much harder to get to and B) they'd have no grand entrance into the city

3)I can't reiterate enough that I think one day in the future this may be a good thing. Right now, however, the connector holds everything together and it is the single greatest piece of advertising the city has going for it (because I'll let you in on a little secret, everybody - including SSPers and die-hard city fans - loves the allure of a dynamic urban promenade at 80mph.

[GTviajero81]

realm0854, your posts are a joy to read. Quite enlightening with excellent points and counterpoints.

Many of us are not realising that the Connector, itself, is considered interwoven with the fabric that is the City of Atlanta. Within the last few years, companies have been paying big bucks to get their marquees on top of the towers that line and that have visibility from the Connector. Visitors and locals alike still appreciate the beautiful skyline that we have. I could not believe it if someone on this forum could truthfully tell me that they don't get a certain sense of pride in our city whilst driving the Connector northbound just before reaching the International Blvd/Freedom Parkway exit....to see the entire length of Downtown and Midtown Atlanta, particularly on a clear day around sunset? Gorgeous!

Atlanta is known for its Connector. It leaves a big impression on those who drive it, particularly out-of-towners. It's one of the things that tells the world, "Hey, in Atlanta, we do things BIG here!" Busiest airport, Olympic city, various national level sporting events, crazy traffic, soaring towers, massive freeways, and most of all, the sense that anything is possible in our fair city. Think about this scenario: a young person comes to Atlanta for the first time from some of the more provincial towns in the Southeast. Wouldn't a sense of awe hit this young person who wants to come to Atlanta to 'find themself' or 'make something of themself'? The Connector (dare I compare!) nowadays can almost be considered to be in a similar role to the massive cathedrals in Europe in the sense that those who come to either place have 'arrived' to the place that can better themselves. I mean, think about it, if visitors were to only see Atlanta from a handful of locations from around 285, would the intrigue effect be as great? Not so much.

With that being said, I feel (as others have pointed out) that we should embrace this road and not consider it a divide anymore. More bridges that cater to a pedestrian environment (a la 5th St) would be excellent. Montreal, for example, has done an excellent job of highway/city integration. For those who have never driven on it, it's quite neat! The Autoroute Ville-Marie is above ground as you drive on the highway that leads from the airport but then becomes subterranean under the CBD. Parks and train lines run on top and this provides a seamless connection through the city (including exits!). It would do Atlanta well to completely cover the area from 17th to Freedom Parkway with streets and parks.

As a side note I must say that the only times that I and alot of my friends and neighbours ever use the Connector to pass through the city are when I am either going to the Airport (which is at least twice a week) or going to an intown city (College Park, East Point, and other ITP communities). I live off I-85 at Shallowford. I take the 75/85 to go to Atlantic Station (17th), to go for a night out on the town (any Midtown exit and Buford Highway Connector), to go to school at GT (almost always MARTA, but sometimes I oversleep), or to L5P (Freedom Parkway). I am moving to the Candler Park area in two weeks and I LOVE that Freedom Parkway is right there (I'm sure I may be opening a whole other can of worms with the Freedom Pkwy discussion) as I can get to the Connector in mere minutes! Yes sometimes it is nice to see all that there is on Ponce or North, but sometimes we all just don't have the time for waiting for people to turn across Ponce to get into the McDonald's there (you all know who you are!). :=)

[Andrea]

Come now, realm. You think the annual U.S. Census is a "few scattered figures"? The reality we are dealing with -- whether people like to imagine it is something different or not -- is that Atlanta grew by leaps and bounds before the connector was built, and declined drastically in the 40 years thereafter. That's reality. The city lost a quarter of its population -- and no telling how much of its business -- AFTER the connector was completed, despite the addition of the radial freeways and despite repeated and massive widenings. That's hard fact. I realize folks would sometimes prefer to lay these hard facts aside in order to make arguments based on "intangibles", but in the cold light of reality that won't change what we have to deal with in the here and now.

It's a little difficult to understand the specifics of your assertion that freeways clogged with suburban "through-traffic is a positive thing for the city." If that's a marquee for excitement and for showing that, "Hey, we do things big and flashy, come check us out", you frankly have to wonder why Spaghetti Junction, I-75 in Cobb County, GA 316 and and the entire top-end Perimeter aren't the hottest urban tickets in town. Again, reality bites -- people aren't coming TO these freeways anymore than they are coming TO the Connector and Downtown. They are passing THROUGH, or at least attempting to do so. If they actually wanted to get into downtown, it's much easier to do so on the many surface streets.

With regard to the notion that Atlanta has "engaged" the Connector, you might take note of the extremely limited way in which it engages Midtown. On the northbound side, for example, once you pass 5th Street it's next stop Buckhead. It's been that way for nearly 60 years. Offhand I can't think of any building in Atlanta which was constructed for the purpose of being located adjacent to the Connector. It's the boundary to construction rather than an invitation. The reality is that intown Atlanta's growth has followed its arterial streets and boulevards and has been forced to work around the Connector and struggle with the lack of connectivity it creates.

I agree that companies like to put their logos on buildings near freeways, but that is hardly justification for putting a suburban cut-through in downtown Atlanta. Of course most corporate headquarters are not downtown to begin with. That's why you see so many corporate logos on buildings around Cumberland, Perimeter, all along 285 in the Platinum Triangle, around the airport and up and down GA 400. But the advertising value of putting corporate logos along suburban freeways hardly addresses the complex realities of locating a major suburban snafu in the midst of our recovering city.

You're saying a concrete gulch filled with cut-through commuters from the outlying suburbs is the best advertisement Atlanta could have. I suggest that we can do far, far better than that.

-------

Your wish is my command, mayhem. I've copied my post to the other thread.

[mayhem]

Please take this to the Andrea Connector thread.

[Andrea]

For the record, that area you're talking of isn't part of Midtown. Midtown starts at North Avenue. The borders of Midtown are like the borders of Vinings, they just keep growing and growing and growing.

By the way, lest anyone think that the traditional neighborhood boundaries are not meticulously worked out and zealously guarded, please note the following correction in this weeks Atlanta Business Chronicle.

Downtown’s not about to put up with something south of North Avenue being called "Midtown."


http://andreabennett.com/public/various/correction.jpg

[atlanta_transit]

I live in an intown Atlanta neighborhood on the southside that has some crime issues. We are part of a police beat that APD always has at least one officer assigned to 24/7. The problem is that the beat includes some interstate highway, so the officer spends over 50% of his/her time working wrecks, so 911 calls from the residents go unanswered. Now the neighborhood association is having to hire off-duty cops to make up for this.

I don't know the answer to this, but does Atlanta get any state funding for all of the work APD and AFD do on the interstate, particularly given that a disproportionate number of lane-miles are in the city limits?

[sprtsluvr8]

I live in an intown Atlanta neighborhood on the southside that has some crime issues. We are part of a police beat that APD always has at least one officer assigned to 24/7. The problem is that the beat includes some interstate highway, so the officer spends over 50% of his/her time working wrecks, so 911 calls from the residents go unanswered. Now the neighborhood association is having to hire off-duty cops to make up for this.

I don't know the answer to this, but does Atlanta get any state funding for all of the work APD and AFD do on the interstate, particularly given that a disproportionate number of lane-miles are in the city limits?

Which neighborhood? I'm looking to begin stalking someone new. :yes:
I'm on the southwest side too so I'm curious...I'm really only aware of very minimal crime in my area and have lived here for 12 years.

[Hybrid0NE]

all along 285 in the Platinum Triangle.

Where's the Platinum Triangle?

[vandiver49]

Andrea,

While you're correct in the premise that the Connector merly serves as a thru-way for out of town traffic, 285 serves as the major artery for travel in and around ATL. While the idea of multipelexing 75 and 85 with 285 to bypass dowtown a la DC's Beltway, the Perimeter is incapable of handling its current traffic demands. The Top End is broken, and the eastside Perimeter is a joke in the evenings. It would be a parking lot in the truest sense if forced to handle traffic from the Connector. Also, the ROW to expand 285 only exists on the western portion, as ITP development has sucked up whatever real estate used to be available there.

Most of ATL traffic problems can be traced to the lack of a robust surface arterial system. Because ATL chose to simply pave over old trails instead of implimenting a grid street system, there exist few roads that can effectively move people across the city, save 285.

As much as a loathe GDOT (they currently believe that spending $25 Billion for 7 miles of underground tunnels is a brilliant idea) the construction of the Outer Perimter was a necessary project. It should have been tolled and it should have only had interchanges with I-75, I-575, I-85, I-985, Ga 400 and I-20, but the OP would have alleviated the thru traffic you refer to, leaving 285 to the residents. Its construction would have made the dismantling of the Connector a legimate possibility.

I do believe that various froms of rail transit (HRT, LRT, Commuter) is the solution to ATL's transportation issues, for two reasons. First, ATL is largely a 'built' city; meaning very few new roads will be constructed and expansion of exsisting major throughfares like PDL, Memorial and Clairmont are unlikely. (lest we forget the pervasive NIMBYism that exists in the city)
Second is the gentrification ITP. I witnessed the revolt against 2-3 hour commutes transform my old neighborhood Kirkwood from a blighted community to an intown destination. (I grew up next to the home featured recently in the AJC)

What is truly amazing about the transportation woes of ATL is its underlying racial component. I-20 and the Connector obliterated black neighborhoods and the potential 'criminal element' is always cited as the reason for Cobb and Gwinnett Counties resistance to MARTA's expansion.

I mention this not to be devisive, simply to illustrate the some of ATL's traffic woes are of our own making. And if we don't overcome these asinine perceptions, the cities overall economic health will suffer as companies will relocate to more progressive communities like Nashville, Charlottle and Jacksonville. These cities look to ATL as an example of how NOT to plan for the future.

[RobMidtowner]

:previous:

About the outer perimeter, do you really think people going from Chattanooga to Florida would pay to take a 100 mile detour around the city??? Heck, they won't even take I-285 as it is. The outer perimeter would serve a purpose but it wouldn't alleviate the thru-traffic on the connector very much.

[PremierAtlanta]

Where's the Platinum Triangle?

The Cumberland/Galleria, the area around the I-75/I-285 junction is called the Platinum Triangle.

[alleystreetindustry]

every municipality around atlanta is so self-oriented they really don't care about anything else. not that many people actually commute to atlanta, and condos really don't appeal to most of those suburbanites. and because atlanta is STILL developing everywhere, people choose a home in the suburbs. and because they really don't like commuting, some offices are pressured to not build in downtown/midtown/buckhead, but rather outside the city in office parks or at the perimeter. truth is..if you are raised in a home on a 1/2 acre lot, nothing is going to shove you into a condo on the 30th floor of some highrise many years later. the only people that actually want to move into the city are those that are retiring, those that are educated young being 'wild', and those that work in the beautiful highrises that dot our skyline. very few of them are from otp.

[vandiver49]

:previous:

About the outer perimeter, do you really think people going from Chattanooga to Florida would pay to take a 100 mile detour around the city??? Heck, they won't even take I-285 as it is. The outer perimeter would serve a purpose but it wouldn't alleviate the thru-traffic on the connector very much.

Possibly, if you combine with Andreas idea of dismantling the Connector. I took I-95 from Newport, RI to Philly for a football game. Never again, While the GW Bridge is beautiful, being stuck on it for a hour only to be rewarded with another hour and half experience on the Cross-Bronx convinced me that going 50 miles out of may way and surrendering 6 bucks to cross the Tappan Zee Bridge was worth the hassle. No, ATL traffic is nothing like NYC...I'm providing an example of where it works.

[SwimAtl]

great discussions folks. i think that corridor never goes away. but i'm sure it will evolve - it would be ideal to have a thoughtful longterm plan. does rail make sense? ... i've always thought the land between COP and North Ave should be our great urban park (leaving perhaps the only bldg left from techwood homes (has it been demolished??) & the school and Y. we could slowly bridge the connector (like 5th street). i also continue to think about the importance of the envisioned 'freeway park' at the Ptree St bridge. there are nice opportunities for 'connectivity' from it down Ivan Allen Blvd to the COP area - could be a great corridor from Ptree to the park, coke, aquarium, & hopefully the center for civil and human rights.

[RobMidtowner]

every municipality around atlanta is so self-oriented they really don't care about anything else. not that many people actually commute to atlanta, and condos really don't appeal to most of those suburbanites. and because atlanta is STILL developing everywhere, people choose a home in the suburbs. and because they really don't like commuting, some offices are pressured to not build in downtown/midtown/buckhead, but rather outside the city in office parks or at the perimeter. truth is..if you are raised in a home on a 1/2 acre lot, nothing is going to shove you into a condo on the 30th floor of some highrise many years later. the only people that actually want to move into the city are those that are retiring, those that are educated young being 'wild', and those that work in the beautiful highrises that dot our skyline. very few of them are from otp.

I was raised on a 1/2 acre lot OTP and I chose to move to a condo highrise in midtown.

[sabino86]

I was raised on a 1/2 acre lot OTP and I chose to move to a condo highrise in midtown.

If I had the money I'd do the same. :D

[whoDean]

:previous:

About the outer perimeter, do you really think people going from Chattanooga to Florida would pay to take a 100 mile detour around the city??? Heck, they won't even take I-285 as it is. The outer perimeter would serve a purpose but it wouldn't alleviate the thru-traffic on the connector very much.

More like will the freight traffic from Dalton carpet factories take the outer perimeter to reach Savannah and points east?

[alleystreetindustry]

I was raised on a 1/2 acre lot OTP and I chose to move to a condo highrise in midtown.

im pretty damn sure you are one of the few..being a good thing. are you any of the few listed above?

[atlanta_transit]

Which neighborhood? I'm looking to begin stalking someone new. :yes:
I'm on the southwest side too so I'm curious...I'm really only aware of very minimal crime in my area and have lived here for 12 years.

I live in Castleberry Hill on Peters Street. I moved in after the Olympics, and for the most part it has been a very quiet neighborhood. With the new reatil and bars has come some issues, the new sushi place has been held up at gunpoint a few times and there have been a few shootings, in addition to the quality of life issues (parking on the sidewalk, litter, noise, petty larceny, etc.)

The point that I am curious about is how much city tax dollars go to policing the interstates? A long time ago back when Lee Morris was on City Council he had the City's Revenue Dept. do a study and some huge percentage of the city's budget went to servicing the interstates. My guess is that most of the vehicles on the interstates are not city residents, probably disproportionate to like, say, GA400 in Roswell for example.

Thoughts?