[SpongeG]

noon news hour report

http://www.globaltvbc.com/video/index.html?releasePID=wv6gRZDrBOjLlD9lcFTgHLKMUaoA8yBU

[mr.x]

It was slow and quite boring...it felt like a fancy trolley, albeit elongated. Nothing special, and while the vehicle was well designed inside (e.g. tons of bars to hold on to and fixed handles on the bars) it was far too narrow for practical usage in this city.

I wouldn't want it on Broadway, it's a marginal improvement over the 99...and in terms of speed and reliability, it could be worst than the 99. I will say that it's quiet and smooth.

[jozero]

What a beautiful addition to the city. Smooth ride, looks straight out of the future, efficient, and uses green tech. It integrates really nice into an urban environment and is easy to get on and off. When they complete the line to science world and people move into Olympic village it will really show its strength. I really hope the city and translink finds the money to have it run throughout the city. It will be a great way to connect people density to city landmarks like Stanley Park, Gastown, Science World and Granville Island.

The people from bombedier on the train said if the city does go ahead with the plan the cars they will order will be much wider.

[mr.x]

What a beautiful addition to the city. Smooth ride, looks straight out of the future, efficient, and uses green tech. It integrates really nice into an urban environment and is easy to get on and off. When they complete the line to science world and people move into Olympic village it will really show its strength. I really hope the city and translink finds the money to have it run throughout the city. It will be a great way to connect people density to city landmarks like Stanley Park, Gastown, Science World and Granville Island.

The people from bombedier on the train said if the city does go ahead with the plan the cars they will order will be much wider.

There's certainly a place for streetcars in the city, but for local hauls only like the city's planned Downtown streetcar....my only fear is that the LRT activists will somehow use this for advocating that this should be the region's rapid transit solution.

[SpongeG]

they would run an LRT on broadway like the max in portland not a streetcar

[Alex Mackinnon]

Even if they add 8 inches of width to it I still don't see something similar being able to handle crush load on broadway. Its a nice smooth ride, but its still only Bus++ in my mind.

[Mac Write]

I would want to see 80ft articulated buses before a streetcar on Broadway

[SpongeG]

Even if they add 8 inches of width to it I still don't see something similar being able to handle crush load on broadway. Its a nice smooth ride, but its still only Bus++ in my mind.

i guess skytrain is not viable either than

[deasine]

Looks like my photos aren't showing up the way they were supposed to on Flickr. I'll resort to Facebook... but only have a few pics as of right now.

http://photos-a.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc3/hs126.snc3/17333_443599205252_537325252_10721333_7465874_n.jpg
My photos on Facebook

The number on the sign is the maximum speed in which the train should be
http://photos-h.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc3/hs146.snc3/17333_443656770252_537325252_10721625_6423705_n.jpg
My Photo on Facebook

http://photos-d.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc3/hs146.snc3/17333_443657145252_537325252_10721627_1183264_n.jpg
My Photo on Facebook

[Alex Mackinnon]

i guess skytrain is not viable either than

At the front of the car where I was sitting I'm pretty sure theres at least 10" inches extra between a mk1 car and the olympic line train. More so on the mk2.

Anyone got specs for floor width?

[SpongeG]

its a street car they are narrow - Portland is the best city to use an example since they have the much large max and the typical streetcar bigger for regional smaller for shorter distances

either way it may not be better than a bus the general public doesn't think the way people in here do i don't think anyway they see a train and they will take it they won't get on a loser cruiser

[jlousa]

That piece of wood looks to be 6"-8" which would mean their is space for the trains to be 12" to 16" wider which would make a larger difference.

An word if there was an announcement made? I heard via a couple of sources that Translink was going to jump on board the project, but not sure if that is what the rumour is/was.

[Waders]

The Swiss will be giving out chocolates and cheeses. You best believe I'll be there.

Where?

[invisibleairwaves]

Got a chance to ride it this evening. Smooth, comfortable, quick. I'd love to see it become permanent and extended. I talked with one of the staff at Olympic Village, though, and he wasn't too optimistic. :(

[Metro-One]

Just noticed that seem to have thought ahead - there's a removable 4x4 timber along the platfrom edge, so when wider North American cars are purchased, the platforms will still fit.

:previous: The stations were designed around the heritage trams, the wood was added for the short demonstration phase.

I took the street car today, was a nice ride, and it was nice to make it from Metrotown to Granville Island all on train.

It is definitely only for short travels, and it actually proves that LRT should not be considered for Broadway (and keep in mind this stretch of streetcar also has its own railbed!)

I talked to some reps from the city, some good info. I like to note that the transit reps themselves see LRT/trams for LOCAL commutes and hope to have the M line extended for REGIONAL commutes in the area.

Also, if funding comes available, the plan is to build the OMC under the VIADUCTS.

I recorded a bunch on video that I will post tomorrow.

[Spork]

Looks good. I look forward to riding it. Thank you for all of the photos and videos, I appreciate it!

PS. The platforms are too short.

[mrjauk]

:previous: The stations were designed around the heritage trams, the wood was added for the short demonstration phase.

I took the street car today, was a nice ride, and it was nice to make it from Metrotown to Granville Island all on train.

It is definitely only for short travels, and it actually proves that LRT should not be considered for Broadway (and keep in mind this stretch of streetcar also has its own railbed!)

I talked to some reps from the city, some good info. I like to note that the transit reps themselves see LRT/trams for LOCAL commutes and hope to have the M line extended for REGIONAL commutes in the area.

Also, if funding comes available, the plan is to build the OMC under the VIADUCTS.

I recorded a bunch on video that I will post tomorrow.

Good info. Thanks. There's not a snowball's chance in hell that the westward extension of the M-line to UBC will be anything but Skytrain.

[deasine]

Looks good. I look forward to riding it. Thank you for all of the photos and videos, I appreciate it!

PS. The platforms are too short.

Not much shorter than the Canada Line ones...

Oh come on guys, the streetcar was great! I liked it and certainly would prefer riding those on my commute than buses. But like everyone has said already, trams should be thought of for the purposes of shorter routes, connecting with the main haul system. Ride quality was smooth and quiet. Seats are leather, but really, I think our new SkyTrain seats are more comfortable. All in all, great ride, and I hope to see the system come to fruition.

Here's my full Flickr gallery (http://www.flickr.com/photos/46784044@N02/sets/72157623135136267/), finally done and solved. Quick photos here:
http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4071/4294200587_197fdb7b97.jpg
My photography on Flickr (http://www.flickr.com/photos/46784044@N02/sets/72157623135136267/)
http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2648/4294200901_e34affb33f.jpg
My photography on Flickr (http://www.flickr.com/photos/46784044@N02/sets/72157623135136267/)
http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4053/4294943934_c1fc28a859.jpg
My photography on Flickr (http://www.flickr.com/photos/46784044@N02/sets/72157623135136267/)
http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2779/4294203805_c79a28cb5c.jpg
My photography on Flickr (http://www.flickr.com/photos/46784044@N02/sets/72157623135136267/)
http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2681/4294948020_0c09a31038.jpg
My photography on Flickr (http://www.flickr.com/photos/46784044@N02/sets/72157623135136267/)
http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4058/4294950366_26902be081.jpg
My photography on Flickr (http://www.flickr.com/photos/46784044@N02/sets/72157623135136267/)
http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4064/4294953392_8cb88d2cc7.jpg
My photography on Flickr (http://www.flickr.com/photos/46784044@N02/sets/72157623135136267/)
http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4043/4294212255_425afd7617.jpg
My photography on Flickr (http://www.flickr.com/photos/46784044@N02/sets/72157623135136267/)
http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2695/4294959334_c9ab180618.jpg
My photography on Flickr (http://www.flickr.com/photos/46784044@N02/sets/72157623135136267/)
http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2795/4294962342_2bd15428d2.jpg
My photography on Flickr (http://www.flickr.com/photos/46784044@N02/sets/72157623135136267/)
http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4010/4294963348_2114b3abeb.jpg
My photography on Flickr (http://www.flickr.com/photos/46784044@N02/sets/72157623135136267/)
http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2751/4294233593_21ffde8f5e.jpg
My photography on Flickr (http://www.flickr.com/photos/46784044@N02/sets/72157623135136267/)
http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4063/4294988250_1c522a02d8.jpg
My photography on Flickr (http://www.flickr.com/photos/46784044@N02/sets/72157623135136267/)
http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4006/4294995962_5dba92b411.jpg
My photography on Flickr (http://www.flickr.com/photos/46784044@N02/sets/72157623135136267/)

And here are a few new signs. Sadly, the information signs at Granville Island were installed incorrectly, and the arrows all point in the wrong direction. I'm not used to seeing French all over Vancouver now, but I certainly don't mind it.

http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4011/4294231235_26d4174d8f_o.jpg
My photography on Flickr (http://www.flickr.com/photos/46784044@N02/sets/72157623135136267/)
http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4043/4294993792_bcbdbbfc2d.jpg
My photography on Flickr (http://www.flickr.com/photos/46784044@N02/sets/72157623135136267/)

And they've installed new signs to warn pedestrians about the streetcar, in addition to removing the old signs.
http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4029/4294193383_a277c09f3a_o.jpg
My photography on Flickr (http://www.flickr.com/photos/46784044@N02/sets/72157623135136267/)
http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4006/4294936252_214b7c118c.jpg
My photography on Flickr (http://www.flickr.com/photos/46784044@N02/sets/72157623135136267/)

And a bonus massive Bell advertisement.
http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4070/4294194169_b0903c3680.jpg
My photography on Flickr (http://www.flickr.com/photos/46784044@N02/sets/72157623135136267/)

[jsbertram]

Lets understand the purpose of this line:

- Its a demonstration of Bombardier’s modern Tram / Streetcar / LRT trains.

- Its designed to get Vancouverites excited about modern Tram / Streetcar / LRT trains, and persuade us to get our Councillors, the Mayor, our MLAs and the Premier “on board” (pun intended) to get it running between Granville Island, Olympic Village, Science World, Gastown, Waterfront and Stanley Park.

- It’s a way for Bombardier to show off their modern Tram / Streetcar / LRT trains to visiting Councillors, Mayors, Premiers, Prime Ministers, and Presidents while they are here for the Olympics.

- It connects Granville Island to the Canada Line (Olympic Village Station) which is nice, but it will be more interesting to see how it handles the masses heading to Granville Island for the Olympic schmoooze & party houses.

All of the track between the two demo stations is new (new concrete ties, new continuous welded rail and new ballast) replacing the single-track of the former freight line.

Since everything between 1st Ave and False Creek, and between Cambie St Bridge and Quebec St is in the Olympic Village security zone, there’s no way that this train could have continued east of the Cambie St Bridge right now. However, 1st Ave along the Olympic Village was designed to have tracks added after the Olympics so trains can get to Quebec St (Science World) and continue on to Gastown & Stanley Park.


I remember another demonstration line that was ridiculed at the time:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Expo_Line#ICTS_demonstration_project

[lightrail]

they would run an LRT on broadway like the max in portland not a streetcar

In terms of technology, an LRT, streetcar and tram are all the same. That streetcar running on Olympic Line could run just as fast as Edmonton's or Calgary's LRTs,w ith multiple cars coupled together for longer trains.

No difference; just how they're operated.

Cheapest: running in traffic, line of sight, obey signals
Next cheapest: running in own lane, line of sight, obey signals

Next: running on own right-of-way, line of sight, may get stopped at intersections

next: running in own right of way, line of sight, signals interlocked at road crossings and junctions - tram has full right of way

next: running in full right of way (surface, elevated or underground), block signalling - this is the current system used in Edmonton and outside downtown in calgary

more expensive still: running in own right of way (surface, elevated or underground) with moving block (in-cab radio based) signalling.

For the way we use LRT in North America, we do not need expensive signalling systems, except to protect single line operation and junctions. The Olumpic Line has no signals, it is operating line of sight.

[SpongeG]

^^ I was talking about size - the max inside is the same size as what we have with skytrain

the street cars felt like busses to me compared to the much larger max

thats all

how they do it to UBC i don't really give a rats ass about that above ground underground on the ground just pick an option already

just to run it to arbutus to start and than let them decide what to do next thats better than waiting and waitng for another decade

[DKaz]

Let's compare apples to apples... How do the Brussels trams compare to Portland's streetcar?

[SpongeG]

never been on the one here can't compare - they look the same inside

the one in protland was always packed so only standing room usually

it was slow but got you where you wanted to go cars didn't seem to be that stupid around them

for city transit they are great - regional not so much - but a bunch crisscrossing around vancouver would be awesome

[deasine]

It's narrower of course, but the brussels one is much better in terms of anesthetics.

[BCPhil]

Who really cares exactly how wide they are, narrow streetcars still carry far more people and are easier to get on and off than the typical diesel bus they have running on the #50 route.

[DKaz]

This streetcar would totally replace the overcrowded #50 for sure. I'm sure a lot of residents along South False Creek are more affluent as well and prefer to drive rather than take the bus... streetcar can and will draw them to transit.

[SpongeG]

Stay on track with streetcars

Turn $8.5-m Olympic rail upgrade into an electric system city will love

By Jon Ferry, The Province

As Sophie Lennox-King got set Wednesday to try out Vancouver's new Olympic streetcar service, along with her two-year-old niece Maika, I asked her what exactly it was she liked about this back-to-the-future form of transportation.

Well, the Vancouver designer told me she'd recently moved here from Toronto, so she was used to streetcars. Taking one was better than riding the subway because you could see what was going on outside, she said. And it was smoother, more comfortable than the bus.

Then, she added, as the Dal Richards jazz band played in the background outside the Canada Line's Olympic Village station, "it's more romantic."

Lennox-King is right. Streetcars, which hark back to those golden days when Vancouver had an extensive electric streetcar network, are way more romantic than most forms of public transit. Which is why I believe that, despite their eye-popping expense, they'll catch on again in Vancouver. Not everything comes down to dollars and cents.

Take the Olympics. On a strict accounting basis, I'm sure they make little sense. But the day we win our first gold, no one will admit to having been opposed to them . . . at least until the bills start trickling in.

Talking of which, much of the informal chatter at yesterday's official opening of the trial service between the Olympic Village Station and Granville Island was of how Whistler resort owner Intrawest was broke and of how that might impact the Olympics. The weather was also, well, blah.

The electric streetcar, however, seemed to lift everyone's mood. Hundreds lined up to test the gleaming Bombardier car.

New Westminster courier driver Atti Torok, 46, told me he was the first member of the public to climb aboard, after waiting since 4:30 a.m.

"It was great, it was very smooth, it's very quick," he said. "It's a nice ride to Granville Island, and it would be a shame for the city not to expand that."

And that, of course, is the multimillion-dollar question. The Olympic streetcar will run 18 hours a day, but only for the next couple of months. Then the two cars have to go back to the Brussels Transport Company and the land of chocolates, waffles and beer. So what happens then?

Does the old 1.8-kilometre track, which just cost $8.5 million to upgrade, get mothballed again? Or is this the start of a streetcar revival?

It's obvious where the streetcar should go now -- from the Olympic Village station to Gastown and Stanley Park, via our own newspaper building at the foot of Granville Street. But I'm not waiting at the curb just yet.

In Toronto in 2004, construction of 6.8 km of the St. Clair streetcar track was supposed to cost $48 million and take three years. More than five years later, it still isn't finished and the price has reportedly ballooned to $105 million.

...

http://www.theprovince.com/sports/2010wintergames/Stay+track+with+streetcars/2471773/story.html

[CLC]

^ seems like media all try to portrait an image that streetcar is well-loved.

While I don't doubt some people really like this so-called "back-to-the-future" tranist, but yesterday poor turnout tells that it is certainly far from making many people excited, unlike the opening of Canada Line. btw, I read from another report the streetcar only expect to attract 1500 riders per day.

[Yume-sama]

Well, only so many people can go to Granville Island. Canada Line has a few more opportunities.

It is definitely a tourist thing.

[BCPhil]

Well, only so many people can go to Granville Island. Canada Line has a few more opportunities.

It is definitely a tourist thing.

And really, there is nothing wrong with doing something for tourists and locals alike. We have a very active tourism sector and increasing it's value by connecting all of Vancouver's best sights on one streetcar seems like an easy decision.

Contrary to the comments on CBC, it's actually a pretty wise $9 million gamble. If it works and enough locals and tourists fall in love with it and the system is expanded. Vannier park/Kits beach all the way through Granville Island, Science World, China Town, Gastown, Coal Harbour, to Stanely park would be tourism gold in addition to getting locals around on short trips downtown.

If it doesn't work out, then the downtown historic railroad has safe, modern track they can play with and not worry so much about finances and continue preserving our history while offering weekend rides between GI for many years to come. (I really missed the historic trams the past few years).

I'm sure that the $9 million spent on the track, if not expanded, will still serve Granville Island and TRAMS well for a long time.

[WarrenC12]

Well, only so many people can go to Granville Island. Canada Line has a few more opportunities.

It is definitely a tourist thing.

Yep.. like the Expo line going from Main St. to Stadium only. No ridership? What a failure! :koko:

I plan to ride the streetcar a few times, if only because I'm afraid it will be a long time after Mar 21, 2010 until we see it again.

[SpongeG]

it was a thursday in winter - canada line opened on a monday in the summer when people are free and looking for something to do and been inconveniced for many years

I know people who until they saw the news yesterday didn't even know it was happenning - a friend of mine a couple weeks ago saw the ad on a bus shelter and thought it was one of those weird busses - he didn't know it was a streetcar or there was going to be a street car line here

it will grow as its more talked about and access to granville island is more restricted

the old street car will run in the summer you won't have to wait too long

[huenthar]

^ seems like media all try to portrait an image that streetcar is well-loved.

While I don't doubt some people really like this so-called "back-to-the-future" tranist, but yesterday poor turnout tells that it is certainly far from making many people excited, unlike the opening of Canada Line. btw, I read from another report the streetcar only expect to attract 1500 riders per day.

I took a round-trip ride on the car late last night (~11). Had a few dozen people aboard each way; and the City employee sitting in the tram who had been tallying riders said that, though he hadn't added it all up yet, the number of riders was definitely in the (several) thousands. Sounds reasonably successful to me! (let's see how well it does over the next two months...)

[zivan56]

Took it around 11:30 this morning and it was full with people pushing to get on...

[CLC]

^ I withdraw my "false" statement above. From my parents and others I heard yesterday afternoon was pretty quiet though.

Maybe more people saw it on yesterday evening news or on today newspapers.

[lezard]

Streetcars are an essential element in any urban mass transit concept. Streetcars provide higher capacity, more comfort and greater operating efficiency than buses. The greater the expected ridership on a given route the more likely a streetcar will be the better choice. Whether or not they run in segregated ROWs or not is simply an engineering and budgetary question. Streetcars run fine in mixed traffic without needing a segregated ROW, these last simply allow greater speeds and frequency. Most streetcars around the world run in the same lanes as general traffic.

Once the expected ridership on a given route goes over even streetcar's capacity, LRT running on wider gauge and in segregated ROWs becomes necessary. Generally these would be considered for the main transit corridors within the urban area. Metro, underground, subway, RER and so forth are all examples of high capacity LRT. Fewer stops and greater distance travelled are characteristic of these systems. Skytrain is an example of a segregated LRT.

Whether or not Skytrain or Canada Line is chosen for, say UBC or the Evergreen Line, is a question of predicted ridership, distance travelled and available budget. A streetcar would nearly always be a better choice than buses even to UBC, higher capacity would reduce the number of vehicles and drivers. It still wouldn't be ideal though, that would, without a doubt, be segregated ROW LRT with stop distances similar to B-Line. Whether Underground or not would depend on engineering limits given by the route as well as budgetary constraints.

Buses and streetcars would feed the main corridor, Broadway or tenth, over shorter distances. The Arbutus line would be a cheap and very efficient addition to city transit for example. The ROW is there and it runs along a fairly dense mixed residential commercial corridor; it would also feed into the higher capacity UBC line. The olympic line is another great feeder; bisecting both B-Line, Canada Line and - if the line is extended to Science World - Expo Line.

I'm always surprised at the opposition to streetcars as one of the many available transit tools available to a city. Vancouver has many corridors where Streetcars seem ideally suited: Downtown core, Broadway, Commercial, Main, 41st. Arbutus. etc. The city would still need higher density transit, such as Skytrain to carry longer commute passengers. The metro area even needs more medium rail transit such as the West Coast Express to feed commuters from outside the city into the system as well.

Buses and trolley will remain an important part of the transit system because of their flexibility and their low cost in low ridership situations.

Just my 2 cents, coloured by decades of riding streetcars around the world. I for one hope the olympic line gets extended and that other areas of the city are considered for streetcars, where it makes sense. Transit, it's the only way to fly.

[deasine]

^ I withdraw my "false" statement above. From my parents and others I heard yesterday afternoon was pretty quiet though.

Maybe more people saw it on yesterday evening news or on today newspapers.

Actually, I think your ridership rate is correct, but for the wrong context. The old TRAMs reported a daily ridership, despite its short time frame in service, ranged from 1000-1500 passengers per day.

The youtube video finally opened:
qDcycDooxcA

[amor de cosmos]

another youtube clip
ESTlOqPrGJY

found in this "rail-envy" story on BC Local News:
The sleek new Olympic trams from Europe have Fraser Valley passenger rail supporters drooling.

And no wonder.

The new 2010 streetcar now running along False Creek is just the sort of service they had hoped would by now be rolling along at least part of the old Interurban electric rail corridor through Surrey to Chilliwack.

They'd even proposed a cheap-to-start demonstration run between Surrey's Scott Road SkyTrain station and Cloverdale.

"This or something similar to it is an excellent solution for south of Fraser areas, specifically as a way of connecting the growing Surrey Metro centre to other regions of Surrey and Langley," Surrey transportation advocate Peter Holt said after touring the Olympic line.

He noted the estimated $9 million cost of setting up the streetcar on existing tracks proves similar technology can be used in the eastern suburbs at a fraction of the $100 million per kilometre cost of using SkyTrain.

Holt blames former transportation minister Kevin Falcon for blocking an expedited push to launch a modern service on the old Interurban tracks.

He envisions wider street cars than the ones built for use in narrow streets in Europe.

"It makes abundant sense," added Langley Township Mayor Rick Green, who has assembled a task force of area mayors to press for community rail service.

"You could put a new technology diesel unit on these tracks today and have no problem."

A key step forward was made last year when B.C. Hydro preserved its rights to run a passenger rail service on the old Interurban corridor without payment to railway companies.
http://www.bclocalnews.com/news/82440637.html

[satishreddy]

Streetcars are an essential element in any urban mass transit concept. Streetcars provide higher capacity, more comfort and greater operating efficiency than buses. The greater the expected ridership on a given route the more likely a streetcar will be the better choice. Whether or not they run in segregated ROWs or not is simply an engineering and budgetary question. Streetcars run fine in mixed traffic without needing a segregated ROW, these last simply allow greater speeds and frequency. Most streetcars around the world run in the same lanes as general traffic.


Can you provide some details for your claims? In Vancouver, let's suppose a street car is built to do the dowtown loop -> Davie, Denmen, Robson, Richards or Hamilton. How will the cost (capital (tracks, streetcars, etc) + operating) of putting in a streetcar compare to the current trolleys (capital(buses) + operating)? The benefit of a streetcar over the current bus is not clear to me. If one wants to increase capacity now, one can use the articulated trolleys. More generally, I ask the same question for any trolley route in Vancouver.

There are streetcars in Toronto. Does anyone have a cost comparison of streetcars versus buses for that system?

Thanks.

[nname]

There are streetcars in Toronto. Does anyone have a cost comparison of streetcars versus buses for that system?

Thanks.

Top 15 for each category..

Total operating cost:
504/508 KING/LAKE SHORE $85,700
501 QUEEN $81,200
506 CARLTON $70,400
39/139 FINCH EAST $64,000
509/510 SPADINA/HARBOURFRONT $55,000
32 EGLINTON WEST $51,400
36 FINCH WEST $48,600
505 DUNDAS $47,500
512 ST CLAIR $47,200
54 LAWRENCE EAST $45,900
35 JANE $44,900
29 DUFFERIN $43,000
60 STEELES WEST $42,300
53 STEELES EAST $41,200
25 DON MILLS $41,200
Two other streetcar lines comes in rank 34 and 37.


Cost per Revenue-km:
502/503 DOWNTOWNER/KINGSTON RD $13.93
512 ST CLAIR $12.10
504/508 KING/LAKE SHORE $12.07
509/510 SPADINA/HARBOURFRONT $11.46
505 DUNDAS $11.31
506 CARLTON $11.00
511 BATHURST $10.95
501 QUEEN $9.67
75 SHERBOURNE $7.63
6 BAY $7.60
74 MT PLEASANT $7.59
92 WOODBINE SOUTH $7.55
65 PARLIAMENT $7.27
94 WELLESLEY $7.21
31 GREENWOOD $7.19
The rest are all bus routes, with lowest being $2.86 for Airport Rocket or $4.00 for regular route. Comparison to Vancouver: $2.05 for SkyTrain, no number reported for bus routes.


Cost per Service Hour:
502/503 DOWNTOWNER/KINGSTON RD $195.00
504/508 KING/LAKE SHORE $168.04
506 CARLTON $163.72
511 BATHURST $156.43
501 QUEEN $153.21
505 DUNDAS $148.44
512 ST CLAIR $147.50
509/510 SPADINA/HARBOURFRONT $144.74
192 AIRPORT ROCKET $123.08
78 ST ANDREWS $116.00
115 SILVER HILLS $112.50
46/191 MARTIN GROVE/HIGHWAY 27 $112.31
120 CALVINGTON $111.11
48 RATHBURN $111.11
131 NUGGET $110.83
The rest are all bus routes, with lowest being $86.67. Comparison to Vancouver: $102.04 for CMBC; $49.80 for CS; $89.91 for WestVan; no number reported for SkyTrain.

Cost per Passenger:
107 KEELE NORTH $5.07
120 CALVINGTON $3.33
502/503 DOWNTOWNER/KINGSTON RD $3.20
127 DAVENPORT $3.00
192 AIRPORT ROCKET $2.96
97 YONGE $2.86
80 QUEENSWAY $2.74
51 LESLIE $2.53
74 MT PLEASANT $2.53
98 WILLOWDALE-SENLAC $2.47
115 SILVER HILLS $2.47
5 AVENUE RD $2.39
169 HUNTINGWOOD $2.38
103 MT PLEASANT NORTH $2.29
167 PHARMACY NORTH $2.25
Streetcar are scattered throughout the list in the category, but the top 38 routes (of 134) with least cost per passengers are all bus routes

Cost Recovery:
Well, listing the top here doesn't tell anything, but the street-car route with highest cost recovery is 505, ranked 17th at 61%; the one with lowest cost recovery is 502/503, ranked 16th from the bottom at 33%.

Source: Toronto Transit Commission Ridership and cost statistics for bus and streetcar routes, 2005-2006

[BCPhil]

The thing to remember though is that Toronto uses rather old and small streetcars. They don't carry that much more than an articulated bus does here, so you still need the same number of drivers which keeps the cost up. As soon as Toronto gets their new Flexity trams on the streets I imagine the cost of operating the routes will drop. As well, the streetcars themselves last a very long time, where as buses need to be fully replaced at least 3 or 4 times in the same time frame.

Also, in Toronto 4 of the 5 highest volume surface routes are streetcars, with the highest bus route (Duffrin) having 30,000 boardings, and the King Streetcar with 50,000. In Toronto, there are 11 streetcar routes with 276,000 boardings and 138 bus routes with 1.2 million per day. The Streetcars average far more boardings per route so it's money pretty well spent.

But I don't think our downtown streetcar system would be anything like the system in Toronto. In Toronto many people use them as long distance trips, with many of the routes there running almost 100% of the way mixed with traffic, with difficult and inconvenient far from the curb boarding. And if we ran it down Arbutus, there is nothing comparable in Toronto.

[lezard]

Here is the city's own report on streetcars. See page 2 for a summary of the advantages and disadvantages.

http://vancouver.ca/engsvcs/transport/streetcar/documents/comparative_review.pdf

Can't track down any academic research available on the internet; if I can find something I'll put t up. But I'll go out on limb and and say that I'm confident you will not find any serious research that does not reveal that tram/streetcar/lightrail provide for greater capacity per run than bus.

60' articulated New Flyer tops out at 110 pax, trams according can carry upwards of 200 or so. See this site.

http://www.litra.ch/Trains_trams_et_bus_offrent-ils_une_capacite_suffisante.html

[lezard]

Had to run off, so here's the second part of my reply. The first part dealt with capacity.

All the streetcar systems I've ever ridden were in mixed traffic, unsegregated. (In fact the name "streetcar" is sort of a give away).

Whether or not streetcar is adapted to a downtown loop would depend on whether sufficient demand exists along the various corridors.

Bus and trolley systems reach their maximum capacity earlier than rail based traffic. A single rail based combination can transport 30% or more passengers than the largest available bus and trolley. Assuming that the engineering allows for streetcar on a Downtown loop, given a high enough ridership and always assuming that the money is available, than I believe that streetcar is a more efficient use of resources than bus or trolley.

The question is not whether we want streetcar rather than trolley or Skytrain, but rather what is the most efficient choice of equipment for a given route. Some routes will not warrant the capital outlay of streetcar let alone Skytrain, others will need more than streetcar to satisfy demand.

[s211]

This streetcar would totally replace the overcrowded #50 for sure. I'm sure a lot of residents along South False Creek are more affluent as well and prefer to drive rather than take the bus... streetcar can and will draw them to transit.

Like totally fer shur... NOT.

This is such a pointless waste of money.

[Hed Kandi]

Turn $8.5-m Olympic rail upgrade into an electric system city will love
Stay on track with streetcars
Jon Ferry

Province

Friday, January, 22, 2010

http://www.6717000.com/admin/uploads/article/moreimages/5565.jpg

http://www.6717000.com/admin/uploads/article/moreimages/5566.jpg


As Sophie Lennox-King got set Wednesday to try out Vancouver's new Olympic streetcar service, along with her two-year-old niece Maika, I asked her what exactly it was she liked about this back-to-the-future form of transportation.

Well, the Vancouver designer told me she'd recently moved here from Toronto, so she was used to streetcars. Taking one was better than riding the subway because you could see what was going on outside, she said. And it was smoother, more comfortable than the bus.

Then, she added, as the Dal Richards jazz band played in the background outside the Canada Line's Olympic Village station, "it's more romantic."

Lennox-King is right. Streetcars, which hark back to those golden days when Vancouver had an extensive electric streetcar network, are way more romantic than most forms of public transit. Which is why I believe that, despite their eye-popping expense, they'll catch on again in Vancouver. Not everything comes down to dollars and cents.

Take the Olympics. On a strict accounting basis, I'm sure they make little sense. But the day we win our first gold, no one will admit to having been opposed to them . . . at least until the bills start trickling in.

Talking of which, much of the informal chatter at yesterday's official opening of the trial service between the Olympic Village Station and Granville Island was of how Whistler resort owner Intrawest was broke and of how that might impact the Olympics. The weather was also, well, blah.

The electric streetcar, however, seemed to lift everyone's mood. Hundreds lined up to test the gleaming Bombardier car.

New Westminster courier driver Atti Torok, 46, told me he was the first member of the public to climb aboard, after waiting since 4:30 a.m.

"It was great, it was very smooth, it's very quick," he said. "It's a nice ride to Granville Island, and it would be a shame for the city not to expand that."

And that, of course, is the multimillion-dollar question. The Olympic streetcar will run 18 hours a day, but only for the next couple of months. Then the two cars have to go back to the Brussels Transport Company and the land of chocolates, waffles and beer. So what happens then?

Does the old 1.8-kilometre track, which just cost $8.5 million to upgrade, get mothballed again? Or is this the start of a streetcar revival?

It's obvious where the streetcar should go now -- from the Olympic Village station to Gastown and Stanley Park, via our own newspaper building at the foot of Granville Street. But I'm not waiting at the curb just yet.

In Toronto in 2004, construction of 6.8 km of the St. Clair streetcar track was supposed to cost $48 million and take three years. More than five years later, it still isn't finished and the price has reportedly ballooned to $105 million.

When it comes to romance, though, what's a few million bucks?

I'm up for it, as I was for the Olympics. But just how much desire is there among other Vancouver-area taxpayers?

Judging by Wednesday's enthusiastic turnout, more than you'd think.

© Copyright (c) The Province

[twoNeurons]

Really?! Vancouver has the least aware pedestrians of anywhere I've ever seen. And I can't speak for Texas but every other US city I've been to (Seattle, Portland, San Fran, LA, Vegas, Spokane, and smaller ones in between) has been so significantly better in regards to pedestrian/driver awareness and consideration that it actually makes me mad to think about how dumb/rude Vancouverites are as I try to walk down a few blocks every day.
:(

True this. Although, this is because in general car drivers are more gracious when stopping. Whenever I see a car not stop at a crosswalk, in many cases, they have out of town plates. Another province or state, usually.

In the end, it's not a bad thing. In a collision, pedestrians always lose. So, teaching drivers to expect pedestrians to cross the street has the effect of reducing deaths.

Drivers make better pedestrians, sure. However, pedestrians who drive also make more considerate drivers. I'd rather live in an area where drivers are more cautious. They're the ones who are piloting the potential weapon, after all... so they're the ones that should be more careful.

[paradigm4]

Apparently they had 6000 or so riders on opening day. I'll be curious to see the stats for the weekend.

[Locked In]

^ Big lines today - I'd guess a 2 train wait at times. My photos, January 22:

http://lh3.ggpht.com/_9FW9P3-u1EI/S1urzfGKmsI/AAAAAAAACWI/RmFp66__Bok/s800/IMG_1067.JPG

http://lh6.ggpht.com/_9FW9P3-u1EI/S1ur2o7wPvI/AAAAAAAACWM/U3UOS9Q7n2o/s800/IMG_1072.JPG

[CLC]

almost no lineups around 5pm

but seeing your pictures ridership is a lot higher than opening day.

[dleung]

I tried out the trains today. They are extremely quiet, and much more smooth than the Canada line cars, plus they can move at a decent speed. It took about 4 minutes to get from Granville Island to Olympic Village. And I love the smell of the cedar canopies at the stations. Very good deal.

Which brings me back to the Canada line... why spend all this money on technology that can go 80km/hr when the trains almost never break 60kph due to having to slow down for just about every little curve, a problem exacerbated by cut-and-cover ie: the screeching arc around QE park.

[mr.x]

I tried out the trains today. They are extremely quiet, and much more smooth than the Canada line cars, plus they can move at a decent speed. It took about 4 minutes to get from Granville Island to Olympic Village. And I love the smell of the cedar canopies at the stations. Very good deal.

Which brings me back to the Canada line... why spend all this money on technology that can go 80km/hr when the trains almost never break 60kph due to having to slow down for just about every little curve, a problem exacerbated by cut-and-cover ie: the screeching arc around QE park.

1) The Canada Line curve slowdowns are likely intentional, except for the section at QE Park as slowdowns are quite necessary...and as mentioned by others, there's a future station planned at QE Park (33rd Ave) which is also why that section was built that way.

The Canada Line trains can be sped up. Right now, they are running slower to maintain the scheduled frequency with the limited number of trains they have. The line is also new, therefore they are running operations conservatively. They could probably cut 3-5 mins from the 25-minute end to end trip by speeding up the trains.


2) These trams certainly have the capability to go fast, but probably not in Vancouver. In order to reach speeds of 50 km/h, it would need exclusive rail corridors like the one for the Olympic Line the Arbutus Corridor and we lack these rail corridors. LRT on Cambie would be horrendously slow and unreliable.

These trains won't run anywhere as fast if they were to run on street medians alongside car traffic.


3) The Canada Line was simply poorly and cheaply designed...

[CLC]

The benefit of a streetcar over the current bus is not clear to me. If one wants to increase capacity now, one can use the articulated trolleys. More generally, I ask the same question for any trolley route in Vancouver.
Exactly my thinking.

Streetcar "in general" costs 4 times the capital cost of BRT (our b-line is probably the lowest form of BRT). I can bet my money that it gives almost no improvement on the speed department if it is put to run on Broadway. (other routes' situation are different story).

I think the capacity of articulated bus may also be underrated. Some BRT around the world uses vehicle that can crush load 180-200 people.

[Metro-One]

:previous: I find the Canada Line cars decently smooth.

These cars are indeed very smooth, but keep in mind for the majority of their travel they are traveling at speeds far below 50kmh (i suspect around 30kmh for the majority of the 2km trip).

Also these streetcars are considerably smaller as well (just look at their width).

Anyways, here is some video I took from opening day

I am little embarrassed to show this video because I do videography professionally, but for this event I only brought my little point and shoot and took some typical tourist style shots. The shakiness, bad lighting, bad sound, quality, so embarrassing. Oh well.

The first 5 minutes of the video is just footage shot out of the side window (looking North) while riding the Expo Line from Metrotown to Downtown.

5 min mark to 6 min mark is some footage of the Canada Line

6 min mark to the end is the New Street Car footage.

You can hear me talking to a representative from the city in a few parts of it.

Funny side note, as I left the Olympic Village Station house (the C-Line) some yuppie looking woman in her 50's asked me what I was filming :haha: She was all worried I could be a bad guy!!!!!!!! I love the fear mongering.

Here is the video

<object width="560" height="340"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/Xb-o8Uv-U70&hl=en_US&fs=1&"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/Xb-o8Uv-U70&hl=en_US&fs=1&" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="560" height="340"></embed></object>

Cheers!

PPS - Sorry about the last few seconds, I just noticed there was some rendering problem, oh well!

[vansky]

took a ride tonight, awsome smooth ride, combined with some highrise skyline and clean neibourhood street...this thing should be used massively...i think they should have a subway down broadw. and this thing on top together, one express and one short stops

and this thing should definetly pass gastown, on water st or sth...

[nname]

I tried out the trains today. They are extremely quiet, and much more smooth than the Canada line cars, plus they can move at a decent speed. It took about 4 minutes to get from Granville Island to Olympic Village. And I love the smell of the cedar canopies at the stations. Very good deal.

Which brings me back to the Canada line... why spend all this money on technology that can go 80km/hr when the trains almost never break 60kph due to having to slow down for just about every little curve, a problem exacerbated by cut-and-cover ie: the screeching arc around QE park.

Because the Olympic Line have its ROW, does not travel on city street (no speed limit), and only have 1 at-grade crossing, thus it works more like a metro system than a street car system. But when they do travel on city street... you just need to take a street car or LRT line to see what its like...

[lezard]

Exactly my thinking.

Streetcar "in general" costs 4 times the capital cost of BRT (our b-line is probably the lowest form of BRT). I can bet my money that it gives almost no improvement on the speed department if it is put to run on Broadway. (other routes' situation are different story).

I think the capacity of articulated bus may also be underrated. Some BRT around the world uses vehicle that can crush load 180-200 people.

Higher capacity, longer system life span, greater comfort? The largest BRTs may be limited in their use in Vancouver; can a double articulated bus round a typical corner in the city. Vancouver's B-Line appear to be in the average of BRT systems. BRTs of that length lose any advantage that bus has over fixed transit systems such as streetcar; they will be limited to the few routes that can accommodate them. BRTs will not have the same life span as a streetcar.

I'm not sure that you will attract more riders to public transit when you use terms such as crush loads. All streetcars are rated on the manufacturer's specs for maximum load at ideal comfort. A streetcar will carry 200+ passengers without the need for platform attendants packing in the last few stragglers through doors.

[deasine]

What's important when thinking about streetcars and buses is that you have to think from a regular person's point of view. Unfortunately, there is a lot of stigma involved with buses. Ask a wide range of people and they will tell you that they prefer riding on rails over buses, even if it doesn't get you faster.

A lot of the times, it's true that streetcars aren't going to be substantially faster, if not maybe even slower, than some bus routes. But because people tend to like rail, they will take it. The potential ridership for streetcars is much greater than the potential ridership for buses.

Streetcars also attract development. A prime example would be Portland and the Pearl District. Rails generally mean a permanent investment, so developers would also want to redevelop around rail, attracting more businesses and residents in an area.

Sometimes, it's not always going from point A to point B, but it's all on a case by case basis. There are some routes that should have streetcars, some that should have buses, and some that should have higher capacity rapid transit (i.e. SkyTrain in Vancouver).

[CLC]

Higher capacity, longer system life span, greater comfort? The largest BRTs may be limited in their use in Vancouver; can a double articulated bus round a typical corner in the city. Vancouver's B-Line appear to be in the average of BRT systems. BRTs of that length lose any advantage that bus has over fixed transit systems such as streetcar; they will be limited to the few routes that can accommodate them. BRTs will not have the same life span as a streetcar.

I'm not sure that you will attract more riders to public transit when you use terms such as crush loads. All streetcars are rated on the manufacturer's specs for maximum load at ideal comfort. A streetcar will carry 200+ passengers without the need for platform attendants packing in the last few stragglers through doors.When a transit system is so packed as that is the case for most routes in Vancouver proper, I certainly don't rank comfort as a priority. I only look for arriving at my destination fast and safe. Different people can have different perspective.

I am not a strong supporter of BRT, but just to mention that BRT can be built to handle similar maximum capacity as streetcar, at a much lower capital cost. Is Vancouver b-line even should be considered as BRT? you may want to study some new BRTs in China and Asian cities:
http://www.chinabrt.org/defaulten.aspx

[deasine]

I am not a strong supporter of BRT, but just to mention that BRT can be built to handle similar maximum capacity as streetcar, at a much lower capital cost. Is Vancouver b-line even should be considered as BRT? you may want to study some new BRTs in China and Asian cities:
http://www.chinabrt.org/defaulten.aspx

There's no point in investing in BRT when everything has its own exclusive ROW. Might as well build SkyTrain.

[paradigm4]

Sometimes, it's not always going from point A to point B, but it's all on a case by case basis. There are some routes that should have streetcars, some that should have buses, and some that should have higher capacity rapid transit (i.e. SkyTrain in Vancouver).

Very well put. It would be nice if everyone understood this.

[lezard]

Very well put. It would be nice if everyone understood this.

It goes without saying that everyone understands this. The problem with this is that it reduces the choice of mode to what people want without taking into account what is feasible and what is necessary.

Each mode has its ideal application and it makes sense to build the system only if and when the conditions required are in fact given.

If one mode has a maximum capacity of x, but the requirement on the route is for x+, then it doesn't make sense to build a system that will not be adequate for demand. Conversely, it wouldn't make sense to build a system with a breakeven capacity of x+, when demand is less than x.

Streetcar has a proven capacity at normal comfort levels of 200 and more passengers per combination. It has a longer life-span than diesel or electric buses and is expandable. Buses are more flexible and cheaper than Streetcar in the short term, but even the BRT systems in Asia do not carry the capacity of streetcar with the same level of comfort. Over the lifespan of Streetcar, given the higher capacity, the greater speed and the longer vehicle life span, it will be cheaper than bus. Also, those BRT systems do not maintain the flexibilty that are the great advantage of buses over Streetcar.

Buses and streetcar are cheaper than Segregated LRT but do not carry anywhere near the same capacity as this last mode. Local transit combinations in Europe on standard gauge rail carry upwards of 1000 passengers.

What I myself would wish for is less important than Vancouver getting the system that best fits local (particular to the specific route) requirements at the best cost. If, say for Broadway, that turns out to be BRT, than that is what should be chosen. But if Streetcar is the best choice than that should be chosen. Finally, i don't think anyone here doubts that the Skytrain network needs to be extended along the east-west corridors. It is the backbone of the City's transit system and no BRT or streetcar comes close to the capacity, speed and frequency of Skytrain LRT.

[DKaz]

I could see this trio finally getting people of their cars and into transit in Surrey.... skytrain down Fraser Hwy to Langley, LRT on the old interurban, limited ROW streetcars down Scott Road (Boundary Park to 99th Ave), King George (White Rock to 108th, completely segregated ROW White Rock to Hwy 10), 152nd (156th RapidBus to Skytrain to 72 Ave, expandable to Hwy 10) and 200th St. (Brookswood to Walnut Grove, expandable east on 88th to 216th and eventually Fort Langley), local bus system along other corridors not served by light rail, and community shuttles to feed the streetcars, LRT, and skytrain. It's almost a 5 tier transit system, but maybe it's what's needed to turn a 60 minute transit ride vs. 15 minute drive to a 25 minute transit ride vs. 15 minute drive.

[Vonny]

And here are a few new signs. Sadly, the information signs at Granville Island were installed incorrectly, and the arrows all point in the wrong direction. I'm not used to seeing French all over Vancouver now, but I certainly don't mind it.

http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4011/4294231235_26d4174d8f_o.jpg
My photography on Flickr (http://www.flickr.com/photos/46784044@N02/sets/72157623135136267/)


it could be a lot to say on the signage:

1/ the french translation is rather approximative, "station rapide" has no meaning at all in french (may be in Joual?)...

2/ they give the name of the streetcar line, but not the one of the "rapid transit" line.

3/ They have invented an additional confusing terminology for the Canada line: "Rpaid transit" (it is called "canada line" at the airport, part of skytrain network on translink website, skytrain station signage is "T", and not the old skytrain logo... lack of consistence


a positive outcome of this signage, is that it states that a streetcar is not a rapid transit and "rapid transit" is the principle adopted for the UBC line (see http://vancouver.ca/engsvcs/transport/rto/ubcline/ )

[deasine]

Remember, this is City of Vancouver's Sign and not TransLink. That being said though, Metro Vancouver is in need of a unified signage system, similar to London's Legible London System.

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2280/2068806291_d0eeaa610f_b.jpg
Photography by diamond geezer of Flickr

[cornholio]

True this. Although, this is because in general car drivers are more gracious when stopping. Whenever I see a car not stop at a crosswalk, in many cases, they have out of town plates. Another province or state, usually.

In the end, it's not a bad thing. In a collision, pedestrians always lose. So, teaching drivers to expect pedestrians to cross the street has the effect of reducing deaths.

Drivers make better pedestrians, sure. However, pedestrians who drive also make more considerate drivers. I'd rather live in an area where drivers are more cautious. They're the ones who are piloting the potential weapon, after all... so they're the ones that should be more careful.

Drivers are not required to stop at a crosswalk unless the pedestrian steps in to the roadway on the side a driver is traveling. I think you will find that almost all drivers will stop once a pedestrian actually steps on to the road surface at a crosswalk, just like they are required to.

[SpongeG]

it could be a lot to say on the signage:

1/ the french translation is rather approximative, "station rapide" has no meaning at all in french (may be in Joual?)...

2/ they give the name of the streetcar line, but not the one of the "rapid transit" line.

3/ They have invented an additional confusing terminology for the Canada line: "Rpaid transit" (it is called "canada line" at the airport, part of skytrain network on translink website, skytrain station signage is "T", and not the old skytrain logo... lack of consistence


a positive outcome of this signage, is that it states that a streetcar is not a rapid transit and "rapid transit" is the principle adopted for the UBC line (see http://vancouver.ca/engsvcs/transport/rto/ubcline/ )

it's not translink its the city of vancouver project completely different system - if it expands i imagine it will be transferable to translink doesn't have to be the same since its its own thing run by the city

[cabotp]

Drivers are not required to stop at a crosswalk unless the pedestrian steps in to the roadway on the side a driver is traveling. I think you will find that almost all drivers will stop once a pedestrian actually steps on to the road surface at a crosswalk, just like they are required to.

The only thing a driver has to do is avoid hitting the pedestrian. They don't have to stop slow down wait or whatever. They just have to avoid the pedestrian. How they do that will be based on the situation in front of that driver.

[CLC]

Two streetcar accidents in a day in Toronto

Two men are fighting for their lives after they were involved in two separate streetcar accidents on Sunday...
http://www.thestar.com/news/gta/article/755183--two-men-sent-to-hospital-in-critical-condition-after-streetcar-accidents

[GoogalieBear]

The only thing a driver has to do is avoid hitting the pedestrian. They don't have to stop slow down wait or whatever. They just have to avoid the pedestrian. How they do that will be based on the situation in front of that driver.

According to this from icbc Road Sense :

http://apps.icbc.com/rs-tips/pedestrianatanunmarkedintersection/pedestrianatanunmarkedintersection.html

When a pedestrain steps on to a roadway at an intersection, by law, they have the right of way, and a driver must stop unless it is unsafe to do so.

[zivan56]

Two streetcar accidents in a day in Toronto

Two men are fighting for their lives after they were involved in two separate streetcar accidents on Sunday...
http://www.thestar.com/news/gta/article/755183--two-men-sent-to-hospital-in-critical-condition-after-streetcar-accidents

Due to the mild winter they are having, vehicle/pedestrian collisions have skyrocketed in recent months. Not really a streetcar only thing...

[invisibleairwaves]

I could see this trio finally getting people of their cars and into transit in Surrey.... skytrain down Fraser Hwy to Langley, LRT on the old interurban, limited ROW streetcars down Scott Road (Boundary Park to 99th Ave), King George (White Rock to 108th, completely segregated ROW White Rock to Hwy 10), 152nd (156th RapidBus to Skytrain to 72 Ave, expandable to Hwy 10) and 200th St. (Brookswood to Walnut Grove, expandable east on 88th to 216th and eventually Fort Langley), local bus system along other corridors not served by light rail, and community shuttles to feed the streetcars, LRT, and skytrain. It's almost a 5 tier transit system, but maybe it's what's needed to turn a 60 minute transit ride vs. 15 minute drive to a 25 minute transit ride vs. 15 minute drive.

That might be a bit much. I'd love to see SkyTrain to Langley, but it's a massive job and much of the corridor is still very underdeveloped.

For much less money, they could just do SkyTrain to 152nd, B-Lines along Fraser, 152nd, and 200th, and the Interurban LRT. That could easily shave half an hour or more off of commute times, and would probably only cost $100-$200M. Skytrain to Langley would be a >$1B project, and it'll be decades before taxpayers have the stomach for another job like that.

[nname]

That might be a bit much. I'd love to see SkyTrain to Langley, but it's a massive job and much of the corridor is still very underdeveloped.

For much less money, they could just do SkyTrain to 152nd, B-Lines along Fraser, 152nd, and 200th, and the Interurban LRT. That could easily shave half an hour or more off of commute times, and would probably only cost $100-$200M. Skytrain to Langley would be a >$1B project, and it'll be decades before taxpayers have the stomach for another job like that.

I think you're way underestimating this.

Assuming 70M/km for SkyTrain (which is slightly higher than the cost of Millennium and Surrey Expo Line + inflation),

SkyTrain to Langley (via Guildford) = 1330M
SkyTrain to Langley (via Fraser) = 1100M

SkyTrain to 152nd (via Fraser) = 230M
B-Lines (around 50 buses needed for 10min headway) = 40M
Interurban LRT (Diesel, single track, 20min peak service) = 200M
Interurban LRT (Electric, double track, frequent service) = 700M

So the 100-200M figure you stated would probably barely enough for 3 B-Lines with limited ROW...

[NetMapel]

That might be a bit much. I'd love to see SkyTrain to Langley, but it's a massive job and much of the corridor is still very underdeveloped.

For much less money, they could just do SkyTrain to 152nd, B-Lines along Fraser, 152nd, and 200th, and the Interurban LRT. That could easily shave half an hour or more off of commute times, and would probably only cost $100-$200M. Skytrain to Langley would be a >$1B project, and it'll be decades before taxpayers have the stomach for another job like that.

Sky Train will barely allow for a faster travel between Langley and Vancouver downtown. What regions like South Surrey/White Rock and Langley need is a separate rail line akin to Toronto's Go Train (or the West Coast Express) that travel far distance with few stops inbetween.

[invisibleairwaves]

I think you're way underestimating this.

Assuming 70M/km for SkyTrain (which is slightly higher than the cost of Millennium and Surrey Expo Line + inflation),

SkyTrain to Langley (via Guildford) = 1330M
SkyTrain to Langley (via Fraser) = 1100M

SkyTrain to 152nd (via Fraser) = 230M
B-Lines (around 50 buses needed for 10min headway) = 40M
Interurban LRT (Diesel, single track, 20min peak service) = 200M
Interurban LRT (Electric, double track, frequent service) = 700M

So the 100-200M figure you stated would probably barely enough for 3 B-Lines with limited ROW...

Maybe $200M is a bit low...but you have the cost of a 152nd extension as being more than a fifth of the cost of an extension to Langley, which is definitely a bit much, especially since most of the track is through parkland and only two, maybe three stations would be needed. The buses wouldn't need much ROW...the four-lane sections of Fraser Highway are rarely congested. I take the 502 almost every day, and it only takes so long because a) there's too many stops, and b) the bottlenecks in Cloverdale (currently being widened) and Green Timbers (bypassed by SkyTrain extension).

[Metro-One]

Sky Train will barely allow for a faster travel between Langley and Vancouver downtown. What regions like South Surrey/White Rock and Langley need is a separate rail line akin to Toronto's Go Train (or the West Coast Express) that travel far distance with few stops inbetween.

Exactly How I feel.

[RosstheBoss]

Road the streetcar yesterday, it was very nice it would make a great attention for a inner Vancouver service. They should definitely keep and extend it out to Stanly park, it would be convenient and would be a big hit for tourists. I just wish the demonstration track had been a bit bigger, it was kinda short. Well at least Granville island will get a boast out of it, I haven't seen Granville island that busy in a long time.

[GoogalieBear]

Road the streetcar yesterday, it was very nice it would make a great attention for a inner Vancouver service. They should definitely keep and extend it out to Stanly park, it would be convenient and would be a big hit for tourists. I just wish the demonstration track had been a bit bigger, it was kinda short. Well at least Granville island will get a boast out of it, I haven't seen Granville island that busy in a long time.

We too went down to Granville Island for the first time in many years. In the past we simply avoided it just because parking is always such a pain, but with the train, it was super easy. We had always wondered why they didn't ban non-essential car traffic on Granville Island and places visitor parking outside the island with a train or bus shuttle connecting the two. You would think that with the commercial space they gain from removing all the parking, they could more than compensate for the shuttle and parking they need off the island...

[djh]

We too went down to Granville Island for the first time in many years. In the past we simply avoided it just because parking is always such a pain, but with the train, it was super easy. We had always wondered why they didn't ban non-essential car traffic on Granville Island and places visitor parking outside the island with a train or bus shuttle connecting the two. You would think that with the commercial space they gain from removing all the parking, they could more than compensate for the shuttle and parking they need off the island...

I've been saying it for years. Ban cars on Granville Island.

Yes I took the wife & kids on the tram on the weekend too. I can't wait until they expand to phases 1 and 2 (after seeing the weekend response I think it's a shoe-in because the public obviously love it and the groundswell will grow).

But for goodness sake, first get all those cars off the island! Such a traffic logjam!

[mr.x]

I've been saying it for years. Ban cars on Granville Island.

Yes I took the wife & kids on the tram on the weekend too. I can't wait until they expand to phases 1 and 2 (after seeing the weekend response I think it's a shoe-in because the public obviously love it and the groundswell will grow).

But for goodness sake, first get all those cars off the island! Such a traffic logjam!

The businesses believe that their business depends on car traffic...although I'd love to see cars banned, good luck with that.

[officedweller]

According to this from icbc Road Sense :

http://apps.icbc.com/rs-tips/pedestrianatanunmarkedintersection/pedestrianatanunmarkedintersection.html

When a pedestrain steps on to a roadway at an intersection, by law, they have the right of way, and a driver must stop unless it is unsafe to do so.

This is why, from a pedestrian pespective, I don't like corner bulges - because it makes it harder for pedestrians to assert their rights - by stepping onto the roadway to signal their intent.
i.e. with a corner bulge you step directly into a travelled lane of traffic, which is difficult if cars are travelling quickly - whereas with a non-bulge corner, you can inch your way out through the curb lane.

[Mac Write]

They need to run the streetcar through Granville Island using the existing track in place with 4 stops. Entrance (Kids Only facing North/South), Emilicar, Market, etc. It will help those who can't walk far/easily aka the elderly, disabled, etc.

[lightrail]

1) The Canada Line curve slowdowns are likely intentional, except for the section at QE Park as slowdowns are quite necessary...and as mentioned by others, there's a future station planned at QE Park (33rd Ave) which is also why that section was built that way.

The Canada Line trains can be sped up. Right now, they are running slower to maintain the scheduled frequency with the limited number of trains they have. The line is also new, therefore they are running operations conservatively. They could probably cut 3-5 mins from the 25-minute end to end trip by speeding up the trains.


2) These trams certainly have the capability to go fast, but probably not in Vancouver. In order to reach speeds of 50 km/h, it would need exclusive rail corridors like the one for the Olympic Line the Arbutus Corridor and we lack these rail corridors. LRT on Cambie would be horrendously slow and unreliable.

These trains won't run anywhere as fast if they were to run on street medians alongside car traffic.


3) The Canada Line was simply poorly and cheaply designed...

We're actually spoilt by the speed of the Expo and Millenium skytrain lines. The LIM technology, narrow and low body means the trains can handle turns faster (lower centre of gravity); that, and the fact the stations are spaced quite far apart (mostly), means the trains can get up to their top design speed. The average speed on Skytrain is the fastest of any metro in Canada, if not anywhere (excepting express metros of course).

The Canada Line speeds are actually a tad faster on average than the TTC's subway or Montreal's metro. It's good, it does the job. Let's quit complaining.

[djh]

They need to run the streetcar through Granville Island using the existing track in place with 4 stops. Entrance (Kids Only facing North/South), Emilicar, Market, etc. It will help those who can't walk far/easily aka the elderly, disabled, etc.

Initially I thought that would be a fantastic idea - when I walked around this weekend and saw all these cars sitting in traffic on top of levelled-out tracks, I thought "why not?". But I wonder if the turns on the existing "streets" are too sharp or too narrow for an articulated streetcar to run down safely. To fix that would cost multi-mega-bucks (considering it was ~$8m to get an existing track up to standard(!), and we all know Translink isn't going to pay...

Maybe better just banning the cars, extending the streetcar west beyond the island, and people can enjoy walking around the island. Then all of those car parking spots can be converted into something useful!

[SpongeG]

exactly

[Metro-One]

Initially I thought that would be a fantastic idea - when I walked around this weekend and saw all these cars sitting in traffic on top of levelled-out tracks, I thought "why not?". But I wonder if the turns on the existing "streets" are too sharp or too narrow for an articulated streetcar to run down safely. To fix that would cost multi-mega-bucks (considering it was ~$8m to get an existing track up to standard(!), and we all know Translink isn't going to pay...

Maybe better just banning the cars, extending the streetcar west beyond the island, and people can enjoy walking around the island. Then all of those car parking spots can be converted into something useful!

I think banning personal vehicles on Granville Island could work if a decent parking structure was built near Granville island (such as a multilevel parking structure, with retail on the base floor, or an underground parking structure). Also, commercial traffic (such as delivery vehicles) would still need access to the island. I worry that just eliminating cars with no compromise could hurt Granville Island's economy. Such a parking structure could be built beside the Olympic Village station (seeing how they have a huge surface parking lot there) and could be used as a park and ride for those accessing the island (they would use the new streetcar).

[red-paladin]

The average speed on Skytrain is the fastest of any metro in Canada, if not anywhere (excepting express metros of course).


The Beijing Airport Express chose ALRT for that reason I thought.

[jlousa]

I don't drive anymore so it wouldn't affect me, but I wouldn't want to see parking eliminated from Granville Island. Just charge for parking anywhere on the island to decrease the amount of cars a bit. By eliminating cars completely you will kill quite a bit of the customer base. Lots of people drive their for produce/fish/meat and unfortunately would probably stop if they needed to walk 6 more block to a parkade off the island. It's easy for us to think we know what's best for them, but the operators of the businesses on the GI don't want to see the end of cars and they probably know their business better then us.
I'd also rather see the Street car extend to the Museums instead of turn into the island, the current stop serves the island quite well and if it ever gets built out to Stanley Park, all our major tourist attractions will greatly benefit.

[GoogalieBear]

I don't drive anymore so it wouldn't affect me, but I wouldn't want to see parking eliminated from Granville Island. Just charge for parking anywhere on the island to decrease the amount of cars a bit. By eliminating cars completely you will kill quite a bit of the customer base. Lots of people drive their for produce/fish/meat and unfortunately would probably stop if they needed to walk 6 more block to a parkade off the island. It's easy for us to think we know what's best for them, but the operators of the businesses on the GI don't want to see the end of cars and they probably know their business better then us.
I'd also rather see the Street car extend to the Museums instead of turn into the island, the current stop serves the island quite well and if it ever gets built out to Stanley Park, all our major tourist attractions will greatly benefit.

As my original post said, I am suggesting they have off island parking with a shuttle connecting the two so people who don't want to walk, won't have to. As the way it is, we haven't gone down there for years just because it's such a terrible place to park, you drive round and round, lots of accident close calls and it's very unpleasant for pedestrians as well...

[BCPhil]

Grandville Island is a business, and if it makes more business sense (they make more money) to have cars on the island, even with the insane traffic it causes, then that is the way it should be. There are a lot of people (not me though) who shop at the market there, and use their car to transport their purchases. And those are the people that keep those businesses afloat, and making them walk 3 or 4 blocks, then ride a shuttle, might make them take their business elsewhere.

The best thing to do is offer the alternatives for those who realize their value. If you're not buying 20 pounds of fish, then you don't really need your car, and if the streetcar was there you can get to the island much easier.

Back when TRAMS had the heritage streetcars running between Science World and Granville Island on weekends, that's what I would do. I would Skytrain or even drive to Science World, then for $2 you got a round trip on the old interurban. It was an amazing deal and dropped you off right there. Actually, since that service stopped to build Olympic Village, I've only been to GI twice, because I just don't like the traffic on the Island.

If it made business sense to remove cars from the island, and say restore the old rail tracks to run heritage streetcars on the island as a complete tourist trap (which would be freaking sweet) they would. But a lot of companies make money off people dropping by to pick stuff up, not just the tourist dollar.

They could easily increase the cost of parking up to downtown market rates (as I believe it's a bit low there) and not affect the local shoppers (infact probably help them by guaranteeing more parking space for their short visits) and the value of taking in transit, like a streetcar, would be more apparent for everyone else.

You don't need to force everyone to do the right thing. If the streetcar was there, it would be the EASIEST way to get to GI, and people would realize that, just like all the people who now use Canada Line to do their shopping in Richmond. Parking is still free at most places in Richmond, but the ease and speed of the Canada Line attracts plenty of riders.

[flight_from_kamakura]

i remember a conversation back in 2005 where beasley specifically said something along the lines of "without cars, there's no granville island". he was actually for removing stop signs altogether. not that his word is gospel, but it seems right that the island needs cars and that rail into there wouldn't help any. but damn, running the street car out to vanier park would be brilliant, if the right of way could ever be secured (and the nimbys weren't chaining themselves to the tracks in protest). on that note, it could work nicely to run the stanley park line out to vanier park, and the drake street line (which one would hope is eventually extended out to denman) out to arbutus. granville island would be a sort of mini-terminus there, all the better for business if the arbutus line ran all the way out to southlands.

[BCPhil]

If you were to extend tracks towards Vanier Park, I don't think there would be any NIBYs to worry about. Most of the old BCER ROW still exists around on on the North side of the Molson Brewery, and the old Kitsilano Trestle stood in the area across False Creek until 1982!

The BCER interurban used to come out of Yaletown and across a wood trestle next to the Burrard Street Bridge, then down to the Arbutus corridor. If you look on google maps you can see the ROW is still there between the Brewery and those condos on the water, and if you walk there the rails are still in the ground. The Burrard bridge was built so that those tracks could be re-routed onto a lower deck of the Burrard Bridge, but that was never done as the streetcar era came to an end first.

But you would probably have to negotiate with First Nations if you want to travel under Burrard street bridge, unless there is a way around it.

[djh]

@JLousa: If your opinion is that people *need* their car to shop on Granville Island:

a) How did people buy groceries before everybody had cars? They bought less, bought more often.
b) Cabs would be fine in my world for GI. If you can afford to do your grocery shopping on the island, you can afford a cab! Even if it's just from the market to your car
c) I definitely would support a parkade being built at the mouth of the island. It's only about a 5 minute walk from the market to the mouth
d) Lots of people go to the island for non-grocery activities (drinking, theatre, coffee, arts & crafts, boats), and in fact I would suggest GI visitors want to get *away* from the conventional shopping experience. So if they can't adapt to the way things are done on a new-version of the island, there's always Safeway...
e) Talking of alternatives, there is a Whole Foods at Cambie, there will be an Urban Fare at the Olympic Village, a Capers further west on W4th, and there will be a farmer's market directly across False Creek under Granville Bridge. If the car drivers don't want to walk from their car to the market, they can stay in their car and go to any of those other options that are in the same price point.

I just think people are very unnecessarily dependent on their cars, and if the prospect of a 200m walk from one's car to their shop of choice is too much to take...oh I better not say it:D

More seriously, I do understand that some people have needs for personal transport. Like I said, cabs on the island are OK by me. I could also relent to allowing disabled parking spots and pick-up/drop-off arrangements, much like at an airport terminal. But the general car-user who's just plain lazy is also the same person likely to knock me over as I walk around, or have a couple of drinks on the island then drive home. If transport to the island is great, let them park elsewhere, and as I said before, that space could now be used for additional facilities.

[jlousa]

I'm sure customer laziness plays a factor, but the fact remains that the businesses on the island depend on those customers that drive onto the island. It's sad that a certain demographic would stop shopping there if they couldn't drive. It would be even sadder to see Granville Island suffer and possibly die though if they lost a chuck of their customer base. I'd be fine with a car less Granville Island, but I don't believe Vancouver is ready yet.
If we allow handicap cars, taxis, tour buses, delivery trucks, cement trucks, maintenance vehicles etc etc, might as well alone all cars, just charge them. Heck with the way the island is set up with only one way on and off, you could treat the whole thing like a parkade and charge people on exiting, with only one price station it would be very easy to fluctuate the rates depending on demand, weekends and evenings could actually cost more then weekdays

[NetMapel]

This is kind of off-topic, but going along with the whole conversation with Granville Island... I'm thinking maybe have a little gondola line that has a station around Seymour and Pacific to Granville Island ?

[whatnext]

If you were to extend tracks towards Vanier Park, I don't think there would be any NIBYs to worry about. Most of the old BCER ROW still exists around on on the North side of the Molson Brewery, and the old Kitsilano Trestle stood in the area across False Creek until 1982!..

Never underestimate the capacity of Kits Points residents to complain about anything. :haha:

[cabotp]

According to this from icbc Road Sense :

http://apps.icbc.com/rs-tips/pedestrianatanunmarkedintersection/pedestrianatanunmarkedintersection.html

When a pedestrain steps on to a roadway at an intersection, by law, they have the right of way, and a driver must stop unless it is unsafe to do so.

Ahh the key word "unsafe" to do so. I could be doing 30 km/h and decide it wasn't safe to stop. ;)

The underling theme is that a driver must not hit the pedestrian and must do so in a safe manner. It is also the onus of the pedestrian to not just step out in traffic thinking they have the right of way.

I must add that I no longer driver and only take transit and walk. So I'm not approaching this as a driver who hates pedestrian. I'm actually a pedestrian myself.

[mr.x]

Never underestimate the capacity of Kits Points residents to complain about anything. :haha:

Ohhh, the irony of you saying that.:rolleyes:


Really though, all of Kits should be a bit denser considering it's right next to Downtown. But it's a hopeless case when they won't even let tour buses to get to Vanier Park/Vancouver Museum through their neighbourhood.

[ozonemania]

I am very happy to see the Olympic Line open. I had the pleasure of riding it last week and I sincerely hope that all planned phases come to fruition. I really think it will have a hand at gentrifying/revitalizing Chinatown, Gastown and DTES.

As for the sub-topic about Granville Island and cars, I am really torn about this issue. Somehow I just think that Granville Island without vehicular traffic would just not be as satisfying an experience. The way the traffic patterns, the way the parking spaces are laid out, how they integrate with the layout of the island, is just very interesting to me. It creates extra layer of texture and flow to the area which is kind of unique if you think about it.

I also think cars do really add to the economic success of Granville Island. That you can go shopping and drop off stuff to your car like a pitstop to go shop more, or go off to a gallery or a class, just means more consumption. People will stay longer and buy more if they know they don't have to carry around all of what they bought for the whole stay and also on their transit ride home.

Could Granville Island get away with fewer parking stalls than they do now? Certainly yes, especially with transit connections like the Olympic Line. But getting rid of them completely (even with a contingency of an offsite parkade) would be questionable in my mind.

I can understand some of the sentiments of the above posters who would rather see cars be banned from GI, but I've stated a couple reason in my mind that show that cars aren't such a bad thing. I think someone has already said this earlier, but we have to provide many choices for people to get there, and just make some choices more attractive if you want to promote that.

[huenthar]

I love the streetcar! I've taken about 4 rides so far - it's so great when you get on the car, the Bombardier and City staff are really friendly and enthusiastic, answer lots of people's questions and when you get off they're all "Thank you so much for riding on our streetcar!" :) They're doing a good job making sure people have a good streetcar experience :)

I think for westbound extensions of the streetcar, Vanier Park and Kits beach is the way to go - but I would continue that extension in one phase down to Broadway and Arbutus to connect with the (hopefully) future UBC Millennium line extension. Would make the streetcar line much more useful and accessible for transit users (connects with Canada Line n/s, Millennium Line e/w at Arbutus in the west and Main st. in the east).

Walked along the ROW the other night - except for the Starbucks by Granville Island it's all still intact and wouldn't take much to redevelop - but it doesn't go far before you'd have t o take it across Burrard somehow and onto one of the streets in that neighborhood. Would it make sense to get it all the way into Vanier Park/Museum/Planetarium, or just run it down Cornwall?

I've had some thoughts about Granville Island - I think that some traffic needs to remain, but at least half the current parking in the market areas really needs to go and be pedestrianized - would love to see the public market expanded further. It would be nice also if it were possible to cut the number of lanes at the entrance from four to three - remove the eastern lane, in order to significantly widen the narrow sidewalk there (that's the streetcar station side as well). Other change I would love is a stairwell from the island (located right in front of the building they are currently refurbishing) leading up to the bridge deck overhead.

I love the boat slips and boat maintenance yards - they add quite a bit of character to the island! Hope those businesses keep on running.

[flight_from_kamakura]

^ yeah, i remember reading on here about the trouble the nimbys were making for just the tour buses going into the park there. and those things are life-sustaining for the museum there.

as for granville island, many of the shops there are destinations, so they might survive alright sans automobile access, but a lot of others would see a pretty steep drop in visitors. when i lived in kitsilano, it was a 30 minutes walk to either the public market or the choices on 16th (the less said about the capers, kims and safeway on 4th, the better). i'd walk whenever i had the time, but some days when i didn't, or when i just didn't feel like walking in the goddamned rain, i'd just drive. it was 5 minutes, and despite my fealty to oyama or the butcher with veal knuckles or that old vqa outlet there, i definitely would have hit the choices every time, had i to pay for parking, let alone pay to park a few blocks away. granville island just isn't ready to stand up yet. you put in the arbutus line, different story, but as it stands, that's sort of how it is.

still, i bet reductions could be made, especially if it led to more commercial space coming open.