[BCPhil]

Never underestimate the capacity of Kits Points residents to complain about anything. :haha:

True, but they could complain all they want, but no one else will listen. It just wouldn't make any sense, and everyone else in CoV would just rolleyes. I've never met anyone from Vancouver who takes what people in Kits say seriously. In Point Grey/Westside they have money, and are thus feared, but people in Kits are just spoiled whiners and we all know it.

If the tracks follow the ROW behind the brewery and under the Burrard Bridge, then through Vanier park near the Museum on park land, it wouldn't touch a street in Kits Points. It would actually reduce vehicle traffic in the area and offer residents a premium transit choice. It could go around the point just North of Ogden Ave (still on Park land) and around to the beach.

With a real transit choice right to Vanier Park and Kits Beach, the area could be traffic calmed a bit more and parking space reduced or rates raised to appease local residents.

The area already has a certain amount of traffic due to the VERY POPULAR public facilities located in the area, which will never go away without a real transit choice. The best way to reduce traffic in that particular area is to introduce a streetcar running on park land where it will be unaffected by traffic and not interfere with residents. It's really the perfect solution for the area.

[TransitJack]

True, but they could complain all they want, but no one else will listen. It just wouldn't make any sense, and everyone else in CoV would just rolleyes. I've never met anyone from Vancouver who takes what people in Kits say seriously. In Point Grey/Westside they have money, and are thus feared, but people in Kits are just spoiled whiners and we all know it.

If the tracks follow the ROW behind the brewery and under the Burrard Bridge, then through Vanier park near the Museum on park land, it wouldn't touch a street in Kits Points. It would actually reduce vehicle traffic in the area and offer residents a premium transit choice. It could go around the point just North of Ogden Ave (still on Park land) and around to the beach.

With a real transit choice right to Vanier Park and Kits Beach, the area could be traffic calmed a bit more and parking space reduced or rates raised to appease local residents.

The area already has a certain amount of traffic due to the VERY POPULAR public facilities located in the area, which will never go away without a real transit choice. The best way to reduce traffic in that particular area is to introduce a streetcar running on park land where it will be unaffected by traffic and not interfere with residents. It's really the perfect solution for the area.


Stereotyping is hardly a way to bridge gaps and work towards positive solutions. How bout identifying your 'hood, and maybe we can offer a condescending view point about it. Perhaps you should offer solutions for your neighbourhood and quit worrying about others. Ready for Skytrain rip up your front lawn?

Now, you propose to put street car tracks in public parks? What for -- so us Whinny Kits residents can take a tram instead of the buses we already take? So that the 1000's of visitors who come here from other parts of the city daily can dodge a tram running though Vanier instead of the tranquility we all enjoy today.

And where will this tram go, Point Grey, you've already pointed out "those" people will just scare it away.

Give your head a shake!

[officedweller]

The references are to the Kits Point Residents' Association (i.e. the area north of Cornwall near the Museums).

They successfully prohibited tour buses from the area, causing financial hardship on the Maritime Museum, Vancouver Museum and Planetarium (which they would like removed from their neighbourhood).

They also launched legal action against the City opposing the redevelopment of the Kitsilano concession (now housing the very popular WaterMark restaurant).

They had the basketball hoops removed from the basketball courts during the winters and lobbied the City to have the basketball courts demolished because of swearing close to the recently constructed adjacent children's playground.

Other examples of NIMBYism can be found.

The streetcar right-of-way to Vanier Park would follow the historic route of the streetcar under the Burrard St. Bridge (where the former BCEC rail yards were located) - it's currently a gravel road/pathway. If you look at the underside of the bridge deck you can see the brackets that once held the overhead wires. You can also see the scorch marks from the bonfires used to burn/destroy the old trolleys when they were decommissioned.

Of course the whole proposition would be subject to permission from the Indian Band (Squamish or Musqueum?) whose reserve the area sits on.

[BCPhil]

Stereotyping is hardly a way to bridge gaps and work towards positive solutions. How bout identifying your 'hood, and maybe we can offer a condescending view point about it. Perhaps you should offer solutions for your neighbourhood and quit worrying about others. Ready for Skytrain rip up your front lawn?

Now, you propose to put street car tracks in public parks? What for -- so us Whinny Kits residents can take a tram instead of the buses we already take? So that the 1000's of visitors who come here from other parts of the city daily can dodge a tram running though Vanier instead of the tranquility we all enjoy today.

And where will this tram go, Point Grey, you've already pointed out "those" people will just scare it away.

Give your head a shake!

"Quit worrying about others", "Skytrain rip up your front lawn", "dodge trams", "tranquil parks", "buses we already take".

Sorry, I really don't want to sound like I'm insulting, but that came off as really whinny. I know it wasn't your intent, but attacking my integrity, and insulting my ideas (with FUD tactics) isn't exactly the opposite of whinny.

It's not like trams would be snaking back and forth through the park, or move at a blinding pace. And that was just a proposal to placate people who wouldn't want them running down Whyte Ave between the Planetarium and Kits Beach. But if you are OK with the tram on the street, that's ok with me too. And I was thinking the Streetcar could terminate at Kits beach, no real reason to go further onto Point Grey as I don't think Jericho beach is as big a destination/transit source as Kits.

And the trams would offer transit into the park for people who aren't originating in Downtown. I mean, don't you ever want to go some place other than Burrard Street? Heaven forbid a transit system gets installed for all to enjoy.

And as officedweller pointed out Vanier park was the home to the original streetcar shops many years ago.

Oh and I live in White Rock, but I seriously doubt you could come up with an old person joke I haven't heard yet. And please, bring Skytrain here. I wish they could, but it would hardly make any financial sense. LRT down 152nd would probably be a huge success.

[flight_from_kamakura]

And I was thinking the Streetcar could terminate at Kits beach, no real reason to go further onto Point Grey as I don't think Jericho beach is as big a destination/transit source as Kits.

in an ideal world, it would run all the way down (either via cornwall to 4th or via 4th from ~burrard) to ubc and loop down sw marine to 41st due east.

one small thing the city could do to mitigate a good portion of the noise issues down kits point way would be to plant loads of trees and plants along the routes. the rain too will do a lot to muffle noise (and who doesn't love the faint sounds of passing trains on a rainy night?). though i guess the issue for the nimbys is the people the trains bring, rather than the trains themselves - a point, happily, that makes their input less likely to sway decision makers.

[BCPhil]

in an ideal world, it would run all the way down (either via cornwall to 4th or via 4th from ~burrard) to ubc and loop down sw marine to 41st due east.

one small thing the city could do to mitigate a good portion of the noise issues down kits point way would be to plant loads of trees and plants along the routes. the rain too will do a lot to muffle noise (and who doesn't love the faint sounds of passing trains on a rainy night?). though i guess the issue for the nimbys is the people the trains bring, rather than the trains themselves - a point, happily, that makes their input less likely to sway decision makers.

The Flexity train is as near silent as any object that size can be. The noise is comparable to our electric trolleys. I stood on W6th and watched the tram go by and you can't hear it over traffic and this was at 11pm when there isn't any. The only noise it makes is ring the bell.

And just in case people out there are still unsure of the value of this during the Olympics, this is a little map of Olympic related sites (mostly free) I found here http://www.citycaucus.com/2010free

MAP (http://bit.ly/926yXS)

There is a lot going on on Granville Island. There's Swiss House, French Quarter, Atlantic House, and Coca cola House. And there is a ton of art, which thousands are going to want to check out for a few hours. It will be nuts.

[flight_from_kamakura]

it's not the train engine that's noisy, it's the rails, esp on the turns.

[officedweller]

...or squeals from braking. The streetcar RoW is flat though, so there probably won't be much of that.
Are the streetcar drivers from Belgium or Bombardier?

[MalcolmTucker]

Volunteers I think

[huenthar]

Yeah, they're volunteers from the city (part of the reason the cars go a little slow maybe?) The Bombardier staff are training them.

[officedweller]

Thanks for the info

[TransitJack]

"Quit worrying about others", "Skytrain rip up your front lawn", "dodge trams", "tranquil parks", "buses we already take".

Sorry, I really don't want to sound like I'm insulting, but that came off as really whinny. I know it wasn't your intent, but attacking my integrity, and insulting my ideas (with FUD tactics) isn't exactly the opposite of whinny.

It's not like trams would be snaking back and forth through the park, or move at a blinding pace. And that was just a proposal to placate people who wouldn't want them running down Whyte Ave between the Planetarium and Kits Beach. But if you are OK with the tram on the street, that's ok with me too. And I was thinking the Streetcar could terminate at Kits beach, no real reason to go further onto Point Grey as I don't think Jericho beach is as big a destination/transit source as Kits.

And the trams would offer transit into the park for people who aren't originating in Downtown. I mean, don't you ever want to go some place other than Burrard Street? Heaven forbid a transit system gets installed for all to enjoy.

And as officedweller pointed out Vanier park was the home to the original streetcar shops many years ago.

Oh and I live in White Rock, but I seriously doubt you could come up with an old person joke I haven't heard yet. And please, bring Skytrain here. I wish they could, but it would hardly make any financial sense. LRT down 152nd would probably be a huge success.

I'm not so certain my post came across as whiny, simply countering the endless suggestions you have for the neighbourhood that you don't live in.

As we've seen elsewhere, transit needs to serve the centre of a high density area, not cut along the periphery of it. Or, be built to accommodate future growth. Kitsilano is already a high density community, having one of the highest rates of secondary suites in the city. Kits Point, and Vanier park area are not the centre of this high density thus a tram there makes little sense. Instead, such investment should be placed elsewhere (perhaps even White Rock -- god forbid).

Your comments were quite subjective, so don't be so defensive when someone challenges your generalizations about a community -- a community you don't even live in.

You won't find a negative comment about White Rock in this entire response, I know there are many great people living there for whom your opinion also has no bearing.

[BCPhil]

...or squeals from braking. The streetcar RoW is flat though, so there probably won't be much of that.
Are the streetcar drivers from Belgium or Bombardier?

Correct me if I'm wrong, but the FLEXX bogies on the trams use disk breaking and are thus near silent in normal operation. They should be similar to the ones on the WCE cars, but not as heavy duty. As well I believe the material used in the track construction for the demonstration is top of the line, and almost eliminates possible vibration noise.

Standing near the station house for Olympic Village, I could not hear the Streetcar coming at all. The only clue was that it rang it's bell (it seems to be a bit bell happy at the moment and could get by with much less without endangering anyone). And this was at 11pm on a Sunday when everything else is pretty silent. I went down and watched it cross Moberly and even with the slowing down and speeding up it hardly made a whisper.

P.S. I stood near the cab at the back of the train when I was on it, and you can look in the door and see the speedometer. Right after the tram crosses Moberly, the train kicks it up to 50km/h for the entire length to the passing tracks, then again all the way into Granville Island. The whole round trip, including turn around at GI, took just under 10 minutes. That late at night they were running only one train so it didn't have to wait at the passing track and just cruised through it.

[officedweller]

Thanks.
I speaking generally wrt steel rail squeals, not specifically on the Flexcity.

WRT the streetcar - I view it as a feeder/distributor system for the rapid transit backbone - and for tourists - linking destinations. i.e. the proposed link into Stanley Park. Vanier Park would fall into the same category (it also has intermittent demand due to festivals located there as well as providing beach access).

[jsbertram]

Yeah, they're volunteers from the city (part of the reason the cars go a little slow maybe?) The Bombardier staff are training them.

Wouldn't they be volunteers from the TRAMS society (aka Downtown Historic Railway - Transit Museum Society)? Since they already have qualified drivers for their restored streetcars, the same people could have quickly been trained and familiar with the new Bombardier equipment.

It's my understanding that Translink isn't involved with the antique streetcars or the Bombardier demo, because if they were all the volunteer drivers would have to be transit union members.

This may mean that when the full streetcar / tram system is built from Stanley Park to Granville Island, either Translink will run it with their unionized drivers (and the TRAMS volunteer drivers will need to become union members too), or City of Vancouver runs it as their own separate streetcar / tram system with non-union staff (probably within the transportation dept), or it becomes a PPP operated by "Vancouver Street Railway Inc." with Translink and/or City of Vancouver and/or the province making sure its profitable for the private operator (not too different from the C-Line).

[TransitJack]

The Flexity train is as near silent as any object that size can be. The noise is comparable to our electric trolleys. I stood on W6th and watched the tram go by and you can't hear it over traffic and this was at 11pm when there isn't any. The only noise it makes is ring the bell.

And just in case people out there are still unsure of the value of this during the Olympics, this is a little map of Olympic related sites (mostly free) I found here http://www.citycaucus.com/2010free

MAP (http://bit.ly/926yXS)

There is a lot going on on Granville Island. There's Swiss House, French Quarter, Atlantic House, and Coca cola House. And there is a ton of art, which thousands are going to want to check out for a few hours. It will be nuts.

I noticed a worker protecting the xing just west of the eastern terminus, Moberly Street? I take it they jump up whenever the train approaches. Any idea if this is required by law, or just an extra step they've taken to ensure no accidents happen?

I hadn't heard of a Coca Cola house, thanks for the info about GI events.

[twoNeurons]

Wouldn't they be volunteers from the TRAMS society (aka Downtown Historic Railway - Transit Museum Society)? Since they already have qualified drivers for their restored streetcars, the same people could have quickly been trained and familiar with the new Bombardier equipment.

It's my understanding that Translink isn't involved with the antique streetcars or the Bombardier demo, because if they were all the volunteer drivers would have to be transit union members.

This may mean that when the full streetcar / tram system is built from Stanley Park to Granville Island, either Translink will run it with their unionized drivers (and the TRAMS volunteer drivers will need to become union members too), or City of Vancouver runs it as their own separate streetcar / tram system with non-union staff (probably within the transportation dept), or it becomes a PPP operated by "Vancouver Street Railway Inc." with Translink and/or City of Vancouver and/or the province making sure its profitable for the private operator (not too different from the C-Line).

To be completely honest, I'd like to see it run as a separate entity. It could be fare integrated though. For example, they could have their own fare structure, but accept Translink SmartCards.

[deasine]

To be completely honest, I'd like to see it run as a separate entity. It could be fare integrated though. For example, they could have their own fare structure, but accept Translink SmartCards.

A little hard considering TransLink, by law, has a monopoly for transit infrastructure in the Lower Mainland, unless it is operating on contract under TransLink, like West Vancouver Blue Bus, Canada Line, and MVT Canadian Bus (aka. Handy Dart).

[DKaz]

What if we wanted to start up a private transit service? Like charter a few commuter buses.

[BCPhil]

I noticed a worker protecting the xing just west of the eastern terminus, Moberly Street? I take it they jump up whenever the train approaches. Any idea if this is required by law, or just an extra step they've taken to ensure no accidents happen?

I hadn't heard of a Coca Cola house, thanks for the info about GI events.

Meh, it looks like Coca Cola house is a private event place, but will probably still be busy with their employees and guests coming and going between all the event sites. But I'm really looking forward to checking out all the art set up by the school as well as the French Quarter, Atlantic House and Swiss House.

If it's not Stupid crazy I'll probably go a bunch of times to show my support for the streetcar (and enjoy some poutine, chocolate, and Alexander Keith's)

I think the person is just there to make sure there are no accidents. Vancouver probably doesn't want the bad press and to have to pay any deductibles to Brussels if there is a fender bender. The Flexity trains are actually designed with crumple zones like a car to minimize injury in an accident with vehicle, so they are pretty safe, but it's still best to avoid that during a demonstration.

When I was there, there was also another signal person at the pedestrian crossing just a few hundred steps West of the OV station platform.

[DKaz]

poutine, and Alexander Keith's

:slob: I better lose 10 pounds in Vietnam, when I get back imma feast on poutines and Keiths like crazy.

[jsbertram]

Meh, it looks like Coca Cola house is a private event place, but will probably still be busy with their employees and guests coming and going between all the event sites. But I'm really looking forward to checking out all the art set up by the school as well as the French Quarter, Atlantic House and Swiss House.

If it's not Stupid crazy I'll probably go a bunch of times to show my support for the streetcar (and enjoy some poutine, chocolate, and Alexander Keith's)

I think the person is just there to make sure there are no accidents. Vancouver probably doesn't want the bad press and to have to pay any deductibles to Brussels if there is a fender bender. The Flexity trains are actually designed with crumple zones like a car to minimize injury in an accident with vehicle, so they are pretty safe, but it's still best to avoid that during a demonstration.

When I was there, there was also another signal person at the pedestrian crossing just a few hundred steps West of the OV station platform.

For a two-month demonstrator, it's probably cheaper to pay a flag-man to sit at the intersections, instead of installing automatic railway crossing arms & lights & bells (and is quieter for the neighbors too).

[BCPhil]

For a two-month demonstrator, it's probably cheaper to pay a flag-man to sit at the intersections, instead of installing automatic railway crossing arms & lights & bells (and is quieter for the neighbors too).

Even better, they are probably volunteers.

But I don't think the investment in signals would be a waste or disruptive. We have squawking and chirping cross walk signals all over the city and they don't offend people. Some flashing lights and a bell loud enough so people can hear it when they are near the tracks is hardly disruptive. The trains themselves can then make lots of noise if they feel the situation is dangerous. And it would be useful this summer when weekend trips on the old interurban cars resume.

[AMTDGT]

Even better, they are probably volunteers.

But I don't think the investment in signals would be a waste or disruptive. We have squawking and chirping cross walk signals all over the city and they don't offend people. Some flashing lights and a bell loud enough so people can hear it when they are near the tracks is hardly disruptive. The trains themselves can then make lots of noise if they feel the situation is dangerous. And it would be useful this summer when weekend trips on the old interurban cars resume.

Noticed today turning left off of 6th that there is a very visable sign over the intersection that lights up warning of a train when a train is approaching. Coming back out, my impression was that the flag person was there just to stop people leaving from stopping on the tracks while they wait for the light to allow them onto 6th.

[BCPhil]

Noticed today turning left off of 6th that there is a very visable sign over the intersection that lights up warning of a train when a train is approaching. Coming back out, my impression was that the flag person was there just to stop people leaving from stopping on the tracks while they wait for the light to allow them onto 6th.

Hmm, I didn't notice the sign, but yes, I bet that cars stopping on the tracks is the single biggest problem the tram would face. If there were no signal person, I think it would be more likely to see a few vehicle on vehicle accidents than anything involving the tram directly.

[AMTDGT]

Hmm, I didn't notice the sign,

Traveling East, the sign is over the left turn lane...it is maybe 2 feet by 2 feet and lit when the train is potentially a problem in the intersection.

I had never noticed it until today and that maybe only because a train was coming, so it was lit and it attracted my attention.

[Spork]

What if we wanted to start up a private transit service? Like charter a few commuter buses.

I seem to remember reading a newspaper article or legal case on a private company wanting to start a transit pick up/drop off service, but it was struck down as they could then take the high traffic routes and Translink would be stuck subsidizing the poorest routes.

[huenthar]

What about the former Airporter bus? Translink wasn't involved in that in any way, was it?

[SpongeG]

i saw the sign too yesterday - very obvious and easy to see

they need more "no left turn" signs like that especially at broadway and cambie- i have enevr seen so many people make a left turn when there are signs that are barely visible doing so

[BCPhil]

i saw the sign too yesterday - very obvious and easy to see

they need more "no left turn" signs like that especially at broadway and cambie- i have enevr seen so many people make a left turn when there are signs that are barely visible doing so

Went down there yesterday and noticed those signs. They have those on highway 10 as well where the BCER is right on the South Side of the highway and turning when a train was passing would be unsafe.

The signal people were also absent. Maybe they figured the locals have gotten used to it. Maybe the signal people didn't notice any problems while they were there and felt unneeded. Either way they were not there last night and there weren't any problems at all.

It was pretty busy on the trams for a Sunday at 8pm. Not packed, but busier than I thought.

[twoNeurons]

I went on it on Saturday. I asked the driver if they've had any close calls at the intersection. His response:


I don't think I should talk about that.


Dunno what could be read into that, but the driver seemed a little uncomfortable with the question.

[amor de cosmos]

i don't know how people got to granville island before this streetcar thing started but i bet it's 100x easier now with the streetcar. ~5min trip on the canada line from waterfront to olympic village, & the streetcar stop is practically outside, then 5-10mins to granville island. nothin to it. vancouver would be crazy to not make it permanent.

[Mac Write]

Vancouver has wanted it for over a decade. It's Translink that is saying "No ****ing way."

[jlousa]

More like Translink has been saying we can't possibly spend money we don't have on a project that only serves Vancouver as the other cities would never stand for it
I don't believe Translink doesn't want the line, in fact I believe they would love to see it completed, if only someone else could pay for it.

[jsbertram]

More like Translink has been saying we can't possibly spend money we don't have on a project that only serves Vancouver as the other cities would never stand for it
I don't believe Translink doesn't want the line, in fact I believe they would love to see it completed, if only someone else could pay for it.

But didn't Translink just buy a whole new fleet of electric trollies - that only work in Vancouver? (yes I know the Kingsway bus goes into Burnaby to Metrotown)
Extending Millenium Line from Lougheed into Coquitlam - that doesn't benefit Vancouver, does it?
Extending Expo line in Surrey - how does Burnaby benefit?
And the North Shore gets no benefits from these projects. But they do get a new 3rd SeaBus.
But now Richmond is missing out. Oh, right they just got a new SkyTrain.
Now everyone is happy. this week.

It's not a situation of "A" OR "B" has to be built; it's being realistic that different cities have different needs, priorities, and funding. Millenium Line to Coquitlam has most of the funding ready to start construction. While that's happening, we should get planning for the other parts to be built so when the funding is available you're not stuck in meetings soothing the NIMBYs (since thats already been done), you can go quickly to the engineering, designing and building phases.

I think that's what some people call "Shovel Ready".

[paradigm4]

But didn't Translink just buy a whole new fleet of electric trollies - that only work in Vancouver? (yes I know the Kingsway bus goes into Burnaby to Metrotown)
Extending Millenium Line from Lougheed into Coquitlam - that doesn't benefit Vancouver, does it?
Extending Expo line in Surrey - how does Burnaby benefit?
And the North Shore gets no benefits from these projects. But they do get a new 3rd SeaBus.
But now Richmond is missing out. Oh, right they just got a new SkyTrain.
Now everyone is happy. this week.

It's not a situation of "A" OR "B" has to be built; it's being realistic that different cities have different needs, priorities, and funding. Millenium Line to Coquitlam has most of the funding ready to start construction. While that's happening, we should get planning for the other parts to be built so when the funding is available you're not stuck in meetings soothing the NIMBYs (since thats already been done), you can go quickly to the engineering, designing and building phases.

I think that's what some people call "Shovel Ready".

The price per km is outrageous compared to bus transit, would have little increase in ridership (which would also be very geographically confined), and is nothing more than a pet project that cannot and should not jump the cue over Evergreen Line or other much more important regional connections, especially as those are currently missing funding.

Not my opinion per say, but the arguments.

[SpongeG]

its a city of Vancouver project not a translink one won't effect regional projects like the evergreen line

[allan_kuan]

for once... I think that TransLink's participation (or lack thereof) might be saving us a bit. Streetcars are something that can wait... there are more priorities atm like the South of Fraser... and in the meantime, can't TransLink run some special tourist-oriented buses during the summer or something?

I know... I've said it before that streetcars are something we should have and want. But... with other parts of the region still exploding in growth the transit network should expand with that as well.

[jsbertram]

for once... I think that TransLink's participation (or lack thereof) might be saving us a bit. Streetcars are something that can wait... there are more priorities atm like the South of Fraser... and in the meantime, can't TransLink run some special tourist-oriented buses during the summer or something?

I know... I've said it before that streetcars are something we should have and want. But... with other parts of the region still exploding in growth the transit network should expand with that as well.

Why should Translink bother doing something that the Tacky Touristy Trollies around Downtown and Stanley Park are already doing?

[SpongeG]

the old folk volunteers will be running their street cars in the summer as they usually do

and there is always the #50 bus

[cabotp]

As someone who actually lives in the city of Vancouver. I'd like to see if the city can build the whole line themselves.

Of course that would mean they would run it themselves and all ticket sales would only the city of Vancouver would get.

I'm assuming of course it would be a money maker based on the ridership I figure it would get.

[WarrenC12]

the old folk volunteers will be running their street cars in the summer as they usually do

and there is always the #50 bus

Where can I get more info on this?

The Canada Line connection to Olympic village sure makes that link a lot more useful.

[jsbertram]

Where can I get more info on this?

The Canada Line connection to Olympic village sure makes that link a lot more useful.

Not sure what "this" you're referring to, but here's the link to CoV streetcar page:
http://vancouver.ca/ENGSVCS/transport/streetcar/index.htm

[lightrail]

Where can I get more info on this?

The Canada Line connection to Olympic village sure makes that link a lot more useful.

And go here for information on the historic tram operations on this line

http://www.trams.bc.ca/index.html

[Zassk]

I'll be blunt - we need modern cars like the Flexity if we want to attract ridership like we're seeing in the Olympics. The old heritage trams simply won't attract the riders that are using the Flexity. I love the heritage trams, but they should be treated as museum pieces, not as functional infrastructure.

[trofirhen]

And go here for information on the historic tram operations on this line

http://www.trams.bc.ca/index.html

Wouldn't it be great to resuscitate the historic dowtown railway - including a line down the Granville Bridge and Mall, yes - to provide an easy link to get around the local Downtown - West End - False Creek area once again?

As this would would be a strictly localized service, perhaps they could charge a slightly cheaper fare (and I know the trams are expensive but one can dream...) to encourage people to take it willingly? This would make it a lot easier on pedestrians out and about in the central city area for shopping, be great for residents of the central city, and have a positive impact on the environment.

It all sounds Utopian and naïve to be sure, but everything begins with an idea.;)

[jsbertram]

I'll be blunt - we need modern cars like the Flexity if we want to attract ridership like we're seeing in the Olympics. The old heritage trams simply won't attract the riders that are using the Flexity. I love the heritage trams, but they should be treated as museum pieces, not as functional infrastructure.

San Francisco seems to have figured out how to have their 'antique' streetcars and modern streetcars working together around the downtown core.

http://streetcar.org/about/

It's my understanding that MUNI runs the modern streetcars and maintains the rail and power infrastructure, and the "Market Street Railway" is the nonprofit society that restores old streetcars to working condition and runs them along the new F Line.

I've seen that they have been buying whatever PCC streetcars they can get their hands on and restoring them to their original working condition - giving each car a paint scheme that pays tribute to a city that used to operate PCC cars including a Toronto 'Red Rocket'.

[jsbertram]

Wouldn't it be great to resuscitate the historic dowtown railway - including a line down the Granville Bridge and Mall, yes - to provide an easy link to get around the local Downtown - West End - False Creek area once again?

As this would would be a strictly localized service, perhaps they could charge a slightly cheaper fare (and I know the trams are expensive but one can dream...) to encourage people to take it willingly? This would make it a lot easier on pedestrians out and about in the central city area for shopping, be great for residents of the central city, and have a positive impact on the environment.

It all sounds Utopian and naïve to be sure, but everything begins with an idea.;)

The 'tipped over horseshoe' line from Stanley Park, through Waterfont Station and Gastown, through Chinatown, past Science World, along 1st Ave beside the Olympic Village and on to Granville Island would be a good first phase to start building

It's easier to drop railway tracks on road medians and former CPR rail ROWs than adding them to the Granville Bridge.

I'd wonder if the trollies could make it over the hump of the bridge heading south from Drake when the rails get snowy and frosty.

[trofirhen]

The 'tipped over horseshoe' line from Stanley Park, through Waterfont Station and Gastown, through Chinatown, past Science World, along 1st Ave beside the Olympic Village and on to Granville Island whould be a good first phase to start building

It's easier to drop railway tracks on road medians and former CPR rail ROWs than adding them to the Granville Bridge.

I'd wonder if the trollies could make it over the hump of the bridge heading south from Drake when the rails get snowy and frosty.

Great that you think it's feasible, too! The more people onside, the greater the probability of it being built.
As the for hump on the bridge, you make a good point. Maybe they could use one of those little "utility" locomotives (don't know what else to call them) to clear the track in winter conditions.

[jsbertram]

Great that you think it's feasible, too! The more people onside, the greater the probability of it being built.
As the for hump on the bridge, you make a good point. Maybe they could use one of those little "utility" locomotives (don't know what else to call them) to clear the track in winter conditions.

My thoughts are to have as phase II a new Burrard Street Streetcar Subway running from the Convention Centre to Pacific Blvd, under False Creek & poke up in the empty land between Molson's Brewery - Seaforth Armoury - Burrard Bridge and the BC Central Credit Union - Harbour Cove condos and re-use the abandoned CPR ROW leading back to Granville Island to connect with 'tipped over horseshoe' line from phase I.

There may be outrage that the Starbucks on 2nd Ave has to be knocked over, but it never should have been built on the abandoned CPR ROW.

[trofirhen]

My thoughts are to have as phase II a new Burrard Street Streetcar Subway running from the Convention Centre to Pacific Blvd, under False Creek & poke up in the empty land between Molson's Brewery - Seaforth Armoury - Burrard Bridge and the BC Central Credit Union - Harbour Cove condos and re-use the abandoned CPR ROW leading back to Granville Island to connect with 'tipped over horseshoe' line from phase I.

There may be outrage that the Starbucks on 2nd Ave has to be knocked over, but it never should have been built on the abandoned CPR ROW.

Nifty idea.

[officedweller]

Rode the streetcar over the weekend for the first time. Pleasant - not crowded on the way to Garnville Island Saturday morning - - huge line up waiting on the platform when I returned at about 1:00pm.

The cars are nice etc., but the speed that they ran at wasn't very fast, despite straight track. The speed was similar to the speed that you feel when SkyTrain slows down for a delay or like the approach to Main Street Station.

Ultimately, I see the streetcar as a feeder / distributor for the rapid transit lines.

[SpongeG]

its just a way to get around the city for those without cars its not really meant to whisk you around fast

[jsbertram]

Rode the streetcar over the weekend for the first time. Pleasant - not crowded on the way to Garnville Island Saturday morning - - huge line up waiting on the platform when I returned at about 1:00pm.

The cars are nice etc., but the speed that they ran at wasn't very fast, despite straight track. The speed was similar to the speed that you feel when SkyTrain slows down for a delay or like the approach to Main Street Station.

Ultimately, I see the streetcar as a feeder / distributor for the rapid transit lines.

Unfortunately, some people have deluded themselves into thinking that the Bombardier streetcar is the solution for people commuting from Chilliwack into Surrey and Vancouver. It may be a nice & comfy ride for a few minutes on the demo line, but after riding it like a commuter for a few hours each day you'll wish you were back in your car.

[WarrenC12]

Unfortunately, some people have deluded themselves into thinking that the Bombardier streetcar is the solution for people commuting from Chilliwack into Surrey and Vancouver. It may be a nice & comfy ride for a few minutes on the demo line, but after riding it like a commuter for a few hours each day you'll wish you were back in your car.

Yes.. incredible really.

I see them as a bigger/better version of a trolleybus downtown, mixed in with ROW segments like the demo GI-OV run.

That being said, if the full 3 phases are built out, and I'm in Yaletown going to GI, I'll just hop on the aquabus. :shrug:

[cabotp]

Unfortunately, some people have deluded themselves into thinking that the Bombardier streetcar is the solution for people commuting from Chilliwack into Surrey and Vancouver. It may be a nice & comfy ride for a few minutes on the demo line, but after riding it like a commuter for a few hours each day you'll wish you were back in your car.

:haha: I'd rather shoot myself than take a train that goes only 50km/h from Chilliwack to Vancouver.

Nothing wrong with a train in that corridor. But it needs to do at least 60-70 mph.

[trofirhen]

The streetcar would be for local transit in and around the city core. Obviously, if you're commuting to the valley, be it Abbotsford/ Clearbrook or Chilliwack, the only answer is rapid rail, something that'll go around 100 -140 K/h, maybe faster on long straight stretches.

There are lots of products and technologies on the market now to choose from. Something lightweight and fast, that slows down quickly to stop, then accelerates quickly up to cruising speed is in order, and Bombardier - and other companies - are designing and producing trains with that in mind.

You won't be commuting to Chilliwack or Abbotsford on a Brussels tramway/ streetcar!!

[twoNeurons]

:haha: I'd rather shoot myself than take a train that goes only 50km/h from Chilliwack to Vancouver.

Nothing wrong with a train in that corridor. But it needs to do at least 60-70 mph.

A lot of people don't realize that the original streetcars to Chilliwack were only once or twice daily... and took several hours.

[jsbertram]

A lot of people don't realize that the original streetcars to Chilliwack were only once or twice daily... and took several hours.

According to the 1950 BCER interurban timetable, there were 3 trains daily in each direction between Vancouver and Chilliwack when the interurban was shut down:

Vancouver to Chilliwack:
8:25 am arr. 11:55 am
1:20 pm arr. 4:45 pm
5:30 pm arr. 9:05 pm

Chilliwack to Vancouver
8:00 am arr. 11:15 am
1:30 pm arr. 5:00 pm
6:10 pm arr. 9:30 pm

There was a Friday "market special" between New West and Mt. Lehman:

New Westminster to Mt. Lehman:
6:30 am arr. 7:30 am

Mt. Lehman to New Westminster:
7:35 am arr. 8:50 am

And there was a Saturday late night Special from Vancouver to Mt. Lehman (stopping at New Westminster):

Depart Vancouver: 11:35 pm
Depart New Westminster: 12:25 AM
Arrive Mt. Lehman: 1:45 am

returning from Mt. Lehman to New Westminster:
1:50 am arr. 2:50 am
(not continuing to Vancouver)

Approx. 76 1/2 track miles, and it was non-stop between Vancouver and New Westminster.

Vancouver - Chilliwack was typically 3 1/2 hours

This makes me appreciate the convenience of the West Coast Express today. I doubt the interurban from Chilliwack was ever considered a commuter railway, since the first train arrived in Vancouver just before noon. You could commute from New West to Vancouver, since there were trains in each direction every 20 minutes.

[DKaz]

But back then, it was mostly farming communities out in the valley and people lived near where they worked. New Westminster to Vancouver was probably the furthest commute anyone would consider.

The trains were most likely to get people in farming communities to come to town for a day to shop, or people from town to venture out to get the freshest produce, dairy, and meat.

[jsbertram]

The streetcar would be for local transit in and around the city core. Obviously, if you're commuting to the valley, be it Abbotsford/ Clearbrook or Chilliwack, the only answer is rapid rail, something that'll go around 100 -140 K/h, maybe faster on long straight stretches.

There are lots of products and technologies on the market now to choose from. Something lightweight and fast, that slows down quickly to stop, then accelerates quickly up to cruising speed is in order, and Bombardier - and other companies - are designing and producing trains with that in mind.

You won't be commuting to Chilliwack or Abbotsford on a Brussels tramway/ streetcar!!

Unfortunately, some people think that LRTs or the Bombardier trams are a 'one size fits all' solution to all our commuting & travelling problems, and will promote them at the expense of the right type of rail transit for each type of need.

West Coast Express commuter rail from Chilliwack & Abbotsford via Mission is possible if there is demand for it.

The Bombardier Streetcars could be used to connect Surrey, White Rock, Newton, Delta, Langley together, and feed people to SkyTrain for their trips into New West, Burnaby and Vancouver.

SkyTrain could be extended to a new transit hub at Fleetwood, where buses, trams, SkyTrain and streetcars can come together to let passengers switch modes of transit.

[NetMapel]

Unfortunately, some people think that LRTs or the Bombardier trams are a 'one size fits all' solution to all our commuting & travelling problems, and will promote them at the expense of the right type of rail transit for each type of need.

West Coast Express commuter rail from Chilliwack & Abbotsford via Mission is possible if there is demand for it.

The Bombardier Streetcars could be used to connect Surrey, White Rock, Newton, Delta, Langley together, and feed people to SkyTrain for their trips into New West, Burnaby and Vancouver.

SkyTrain could be extended to a new transit hub at Fleetwood, where buses, trams, SkyTrain and streetcars can come together to let passengers switch modes of transit.

Streetcars don't help White Rock, South Surrey and Langley with commute time to downtown. It will still come down to about an hour of travel because the speed of those rails and all the stations the trains have to stop at. What these communities need is a WCE type service that will give them faster travel.

[trofirhen]

Of course you wouldn't be commuting from White Rock on a streetcar. As I said there are many different models, speeds, and sizes to choose from. A great system, over and above the traditional "Métro" (subway) in Paris is the RER. Click on the clink and check it out.

source: wikipedia

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/R%C3%A9seau_express_r%C3%A9gional

[Whalleyboy]

Streetcars don't help White Rock, South Surrey and Langley with commute time to downtown. It will still come down to about an hour of travel because the speed of those rails and all the stations the trains have to stop at. What these communities need is a WCE type service that will give them faster travel.

fast travel to Vancouver from Langley would be nice but its not what Is need for SoF
We need better connection through out SoF. Which is why the street car to connect Surrey from Langley is bettert. Maybe down the line a route like that can be built but it shouldn't be first. Most people from Langley don't even go all the way to Vancouver that often.

Unfortunately, some people think that LRTs or the Bombardier trams are a 'one size fits all' solution to all our commuting & travelling problems, and will promote them at the expense of the right type of rail transit for each type of need.

West Coast Express commuter rail from Chilliwack & Abbotsford via Mission is possible if there is demand for it.

The Bombardier Streetcars could be used to connect Surrey, White Rock, Newton, Delta, Langley together, and feed people to SkyTrain for their trips into New West, Burnaby and Vancouver.

SkyTrain could be extended to a new transit hub at Fleetwood, where buses, trams, SkyTrain and streetcars can come together to let passengers switch modes of transit.

It would be smarter if it was in Surrey city centre area instead of Fleetwood.
putting all the traffic in another area would kill the city centre. businesses will want to go where the better connections for people to get to is

[SpongeG]

there will never be fast travel from south surrey langley to vancouver its like 40+ kms - people who choose to live that far out get the commute time

[jsbertram]

fast travel to Vancouver from Langley would be nice but its not what Is need for SoF
We need better connection through out SoF. Which is why the street car to connect Surrey from Langley is bettert. Maybe down the line a route like that can be built but it shouldn't be first. Most people from Langley don't even go all the way to Vancouver that often.



It would be smarter if it was in Surrey city centre area instead of Fleetwood.
putting all the traffic in another area would kill the city centre. businesses will want to go where the better connections for people to get to is

So instead of spending billions on a SkyTrain extension, spend those billions on trams, or LRT, or streetcars.

[David]

CTV just showed from chopper 9 the streetcar hit a car tonight!

[SpongeG]

and it happenned!

a car was hit by the streetcar tonight

[SpongeG]

haha jinx

CTV just updated - said that the driver was okay and it wasn't too serious

[mr.x]

Omg! Lets Put These Trains Down The Middle Of Broadway! Best Idea Ever!!!

[deasine]

I drove past it. Quite a stupid crash. A driver was turning left out of Moberly to 4th Eastbound. In the angle the car was hit, there was no way the driver could not see the streetcar. Evidently, the driver thought he or she could beat the train.

[lezard]

Omg! Lets Put These Trains Down The Middle Of Broadway! Best Idea Ever!!!

If the risk of collisions is the litmus test for determining what belongs on a road, than cars should have been banned years ago. ICBC states over 2400 reported collisions for municipal Vancouver in 2007.

How many of these involved a car and a Translink bus or trolley? Do you propose we ban those as well?

Streetcars run in mixed traffic today all over the world and I don't see a growing sense of alarm from the public reflected in headlines such as these: "DEATHTRAP SCRAPS HAPLESS HUMVEE""SOCKERMOM SOCKED BY STEEL STREETSAVAGE, POLICE HALT VILLEIN AT NEXT STOP""METAL MONSTER MASHES MINIVAN. TAKES REFUGE ATOP MARINE BUILDING. JACKSON BUYS OPTION ON MOVIE RIGHTS"

These accident appears to be typical of most accidents involving streetcars: driver is either inattentive or takes too great a risk in close vicinity of large machinery, large machinery tries to stop in time but fails, large machinery collides with driver's vehicle.

If we ever see a streetcar down Broadway, than there will be a period when collisions will be more frequent, until drivers get used to the streetcar and learn to be more careful. Just as drivers have learned to be more careful around buses, trucks, cyclists, pedestrians, little old ladies and schoolchildren.

[jsbertram]

If the risk of collisions is the litmus test for determining what belongs on a road, than cars should have been banned years ago. ICBC states over 2400 reported collisions for municipal Vancouver in 2007.

How many of these involved a car and a Translink bus or trolley? Do you propose we ban those as well?

Streetcars run in mixed traffic today all over the world and I don't see a growing sense of alarm from the public reflected in headlines such as these: "DEATHTRAP SCRAPS HAPLESS HUMVEE""SOCKERMOM SOCKED BY STEEL STREETSAVAGE, POLICE HALT VILLEIN AT NEXT STOP""METAL MONSTER MASHES MINIVAN. TAKES REFUGE ATOP MARINE BUILDING. JACKSON BUYS OPTION ON MOVIE RIGHTS"

These accident appears to be typical of most accidents involving streetcars: driver is either inattentive or takes too great a risk in close vicinity of large machinery, large machinery tries to stop in time but fails, large machinery collides with driver's vehicle.

If we ever see a streetcar down Broadway, than there will be a period when collisions will be more frequent, until drivers get used to the streetcar and learn to be more careful. Just as drivers have learned to be more careful around buses, trucks, cyclists, pedestrians, little old ladies and schoolchildren.

I would edit your last sentence:
"Just as SOME drivers have learned to be more careful around buses, trucks, cyclists, pedestrians, little old ladies and schoolchildren"

We already have a real-world example of how Rapid Transit works well with cars, trucks and buses:
The traffic on Dunsmuir St from GM Place to Bentall Centre is happily oblivious to the SkyTrain running below their tires.

And the SkyTrain running under Dunsmuir Street will happily continue to run when vehicles on the street decide to bump & grind into each other (or an unlucky pedestrian), or when the traffic is only stuck at a red light.

[The_Henry_Man]

If the risk of collisions is the litmus test for determining what belongs on a road, than cars should have been banned years ago. ICBC states over 2400 reported collisions for municipal Vancouver in 2007.

How many of these involved a car and a Translink bus or trolley? Do you propose we ban those as well?

Streetcars run in mixed traffic today all over the world and I don't see a growing sense of alarm from the public reflected in headlines such as these: "DEATHTRAP SCRAPS HAPLESS HUMVEE""SOCKERMOM SOCKED BY STEEL STREETSAVAGE, POLICE HALT VILLEIN AT NEXT STOP""METAL MONSTER MASHES MINIVAN. TAKES REFUGE ATOP MARINE BUILDING. JACKSON BUYS OPTION ON MOVIE RIGHTS"

These accident appears to be typical of most accidents involving streetcars: driver is either inattentive or takes too great a risk in close vicinity of large machinery, large machinery tries to stop in time but fails, large machinery collides with driver's vehicle.

If we ever see a streetcar down Broadway, than there will be a period when collisions will be more frequent, until drivers get used to the streetcar and learn to be more careful. Just as drivers have learned to be more careful around buses, trucks, cyclists, pedestrians, little old ladies and schoolchildren.

This is not relevant. The matter is that whenever just one vehicle and/or pedestrian of any type engages in an accident (or vice-versa) with a streetcar anywhere on Broadway from Commercial to Alma, a distance of 9km, the running of the entire streetcar line on the Broadway corridor, one of the most important in the entire Metro Van, will either be severely delayed, disrupted or shut down altogether (even temporarily, like one hour or so). Numerous commuters in the streetcars will be stranded at their current locations, as well as massive traffic tie-ups seen at epic levels, especially during the rush hour. The streetcar frequency and schedules will also be disrupted, resulting in massive delays never seen before in Translink's history. We cannot afford to see this in perhaps the most important transportation corridor in the entire Metro Van region.

[lezard]

I would edit your last sentence:
"Just as SOME drivers have learned to be more careful around buses, trucks, cyclists, pedestrians, little old ladies and schoolchildren"

We already have a real-world example of how Rapid Transit works well with cars, trucks and buses:
The traffic on Dunsmuir St from GM Place to Bentall Centre is happily oblivious to the SkyTrain running below their tires.

And the SkyTrain running under Dunsmuir Street will happily continue to run when vehicles on the street decide to bump & grind into each other (or an unlucky pedestrian), or when the traffic is only stuck at a red light.

I think most drivers are careful. For 2007, ICBC reports 47'000 or so collisions for 3'000'000 licensed drivers and 3'800'000 licensed vehicles provincewide. In all, 25'000 people were injured and 417 killed. Nowhere near perfect but not a hecatomb either.

You're comparing apples and oranges or in this case, mixed traffic mass transit and segregated rapid transit. My post only addressed the astounding notion that streetcars and streets don't mix (hint: the name). Whether an underground LRT would better serve the Broadway corridor mostly depends on how much Translink is willing to spend.

[lezard]

This is not relevant. The matter is that whenever just one vehicle and/or pedestrian of any type engages in an accident (or vice-versa) with a streetcar anywhere on Broadway from Commercial to Alma, a distance of 9km, the running of the entire streetcar line on the Broadway corridor, one of the most important in the entire Metro Van, will either be severely delayed, disrupted or shut down altogether (even temporarily, like one hour or so). Numerous commuters in the streetcars will be stranded at their current locations, as well as massive traffic tie-ups seen at epic levels, especially during the rush hour. The streetcar frequency and schedules will also be disrupted, resulting in massive delays never seen before in Translink's history. We cannot afford to see this in perhaps the most important transportation corridor in the entire Metro Van region.

Tell me, why is it that this is only a concern for the Broadway corridor, but not for any of the dozens of other cities around the world who run streetcars onto their city streets?

And it was very relevant. Streetcars run efficiently along many city streets elsewhere, meaning that the solutions to this problem exist and can be applied to Vancouver.

[The_Henry_Man]

Tell me, why is it that this is only a concern for the Broadway corridor, but not for any of the dozens of other cities around the world who run streetcars onto their city streets?

And it was very relevant. Streetcars run efficiently along many city streets elsewhere, meaning that the solutions to this problem exist and can be applied to Vancouver.

Because most streetcars (NOT LRT. And I don't consider an at-grade "LRT" on Broadway as such, as opposed to the ones in Calgary) around the world operate as feeder lines to the trunk rail system (mostly comprised of subways or any rail transit that's grade separated from regular traffic). The one on Broadway is supposed to form part of the backbone of the passenger rail system in the entire Metro Van region, serving the most important and most frequented destinations in the entire region other than Downtown Van: UBC and health science and other office buildings in Fairview. Most sensible cities don't build the entire rapid rail transit system only out of streetcar lines. If that's the case, we should've just implemented more trolley bus routes throughout the Lower Mainland.

BTW, are all other streets in other cities where streetcars are being run, like Broadway in Van?

[lezard]

Because most streetcars (NOT LRT. And I don't consider an at-grade "LRT" on Broadway as such, as opposed to the ones in Calgary) around the world operate as feeder lines to the trunk rail system (mostly comprised of subways or any rail transit that's grade separated from regular traffic). The one on Broadway is supposed to form part of the backbone of the passenger rail system in the entire Metro Van region.

Okay, I see where this comes from. Just a simple misunderstanding. I agree with your description of streetcars as local mass transit feeding into the rapid mass transit network.

A trunk East-West corridor, be it 10th, 16th or Broadway will be badly served by streetcar. Judging by the numbers we are seeing on Skytrain (not the olympic numbers, those will be hard to sustain after the games end), a mass rapid transit solution is required. This means, segregated, few stops, wide body coaches.

[lezard]

BTW, are all other streets in other cities where streetcars are being run, like Broadway in Van?

Well, they are tarred and have lanes, curbs and gutters, and white markings and a forest of confusing signs along the sides. Sorry. Just being snarky.

The major difference with Broadway I think is that many, though not all by far, commercial streets I have experienced do not allow curbside parking.

I know, I know, that will be a tough sell. But, form my own experience again, it appears that a commercial street with good efficient transit actually raises the prospects of the business fronting the corridor. Providing for so called park&rides at transit terminus and hubs makes the loss of curbside parking easier to establish.

[CLC]

Bad news for streetcar/ LRT promoter in Vancouver:

Olympic Streetcar Crash with Jeep last night

By: ctvbc.ca
Date: Saturday Feb. 20, 2010 8:25 AM PT
A Bombardier streetcar collided with a Jeep in False Creek late Friday night.

Vancouver police say the Jeep was in the right-hand turning lane of Moberly Street approaching 6th Avenue shortly after 11 p.m. when the crash occurred.

The streetcar, one of Vancouver's Olympic Line fleet, was carrying roughly 70 passengers. None were injured.

The Jeep's two occupants were also unharmed.

Police closed down the intersection for about an hour to investigate, and streetcar service resumed after midnight.

The streetcars, which are on loan from Brussels, Belgium, are running free trips between Granville Island and the Canada Line Olympic Village Station until March 21.

The City of Vancouver has stated that the streetcar system could be made permanent after the Olympics, depending on funding.

http://images.ctv.ca/archives/CTVNews/img2/20100220/470_bc_streetcar_100220.jpg

[GeeCee]

I wonder if ICBC will be paying for the damages to the train.

[BCPhil]

I think most drivers are careful. For 2007, ICBC reports 47'000 or so collisions for 3'000'000 licensed drivers and 3'800'000 licensed vehicles provincewide. In all, 25'000 people were injured and 417 killed. Nowhere near perfect but not a hecatomb either.

You're comparing apples and oranges or in this case, mixed traffic mass transit and segregated rapid transit. My post only addressed the astounding notion that streetcars and streets don't mix (hint: the name). Whether an underground LRT would better serve the Broadway corridor mostly depends on how much Translink is willing to spend.

That's an interesting way to put it. Basically 2.4% of cars in the province are involved in an accident each year, if you assume there is an average of 2 cars per collision. We have 2 streetcars and 1 was involved in an accident, that's 50% of them have been in an accident. Kind of a simple way of looking at it, but it does show that the odds of an LRT being involved in an accident is higher than the odds for an average car.

[Waders]

This is expected when streetcar shares road with other cars.
In one city that I used to lived in, there were some fatal accidents involving LRT, car and pedestrian. At the end the authority had to construct overpass at various intersections to separate LRT from other cars and people.

Now if streetcar/LRT is selected as the rapid transit for the busy Broadway street... :P

[mezzanine]

^ what city is that?

[CLC]

In one city that I used to lived in, there were some fatal accidents involving LRT, car and pedestrian. At the end the authority had to construct overpass at various intersections to separate LRT from other cars and people.


It is simply same story for all LRT system with reasonably good frequency through busy areas

Safety concern, inconvenience, and slowness are the three main attributes of (non-fully-grade-separated) LRT as my experience since early 1990s.

[lezard]

That's an interesting way to put it. Basically 2.4% of cars in the province are involved in an accident each year, if you assume there is an average of 2 cars per collision. We have 2 streetcars and 1 was involved in an accident, that's 50% of them have been in an accident. Kind of a simple way of looking at it, but it does show that the odds of an LRT being involved in an accident is higher than the odds for an average car.

A more accurate analysis would have to include hours of operation and kilometers travelled. Your maths are over simplistic. It only illustrates that 1 in two streetcars was involved in an collision; it says nothing about the probabilities of a such a collision.

In any event, you'll probably find that the probability of a car entering into collision with a streetcar is about the same as the probability of a streetcar entering into collision with a car. Methinks.

I'm still somewhat mystified at the mistake of thinking streetcar is a form of rapid transit. It simply isn't.

[racc]

That's an interesting way to put it. Basically 2.4% of cars in the province are involved in an accident each year, if you assume there is an average of 2 cars per collision. We have 2 streetcars and 1 was involved in an accident, that's 50% of them have been in an accident. Kind of a simple way of looking at it, but it does show that the odds of an LRT being involved in an accident is higher than the odds for an average car.

I expect the odds of a Jeep being involved in an accident are around 100%:)

You really want to look at it in terms of hours of operation per day. The streetcar is running for 18 hours a day where the average car is probably operated for less than an hour, I'm guessing. Regarding the streetcar, your sample size of 2 is just a bit small for drawing any conclusions.

[zivan56]

Not surprising...I see dozens of people each time I drive that have no sense of surrounding or how to attain that sense by looking at mirrors, shoulder checking, etc. Heck, they can't even stay inside their own lane on a simple curve in the road.
I could write a book about what I see daily...

[cabotp]

:previous: And that is why I gave up on driving.

I'd rather drive with people who speed. Than with an idiot who is not paying attention to what is going on. Also people who assume they don't have to do what a sign says. Because they are so above everyone else.

I'd be a happy person if I could drive around shooting every god damn mother F out there who I see do something stupid. :haha:

[twoNeurons]

Of course, if the streetcar were made permanent, I can see gates going in there ( and any other intersection where it makes sense ).

Nothing says do not enter like physical barriers.

[Mac Write]

If they were made permanent after the Olympics, how soon are we talking? Immediatly with a continued loan of the current trains for 6-8 months until we can get an order of 2 here? Or are we talking about using the Heritage streetcars and pay to restore the 3rd we got from germany?

[jlousa]

Meant to mention this last week but forgot, I was under the impression that the street cars would be returned to Brussels, but one of the operators stated that one was heading back to Brussels and the other would be sent to Brazil. Anyone else hear why Brazil?

[mrjauk]

Meant to mention this last week but forgot, I was under the impression that the street cars would be returned to Brussels, but one of the operators stated that one was heading back to Brussels and the other would be sent to Brazil. Anyone else hear why Brazil?

Street cars love g-string bikinis?

[twoNeurons]

It needs a wax job?

[Distill3d]

This is expected when streetcar shares road with other cars.
In one city that I used to lived in, there were some fatal accidents involving LRT, car and pedestrian. At the end the authority had to construct overpass at various intersections to separate LRT from other cars and people.

Now if streetcar/LRT is selected as the rapid transit for the busy Broadway street... :P

As an ex-Calgarian, it always seemed to amaze me whenever there would be an accident involving the C-Train. People are just plain stupid, especially the ones that claimed they never saw the C-Train coming or whatever. Like how do you NOT see a large vehicle on rails coming? Like, seriously!

[mr.x]

Zwei's response to the streetcar crash:




The inevitable has happened, a car crash at a light controlled intersection at 11: 30 on Friday night, closed the Olympic Line.

Just a few hours earlier, three people were killed in a horrific car accident on Highway 17, between Highways #10 & #99.

As for deaths on the SkyTrain metro system, the public doesn’t know because TransLink doesn’t report deaths to the media. So far an estimated two people have been killed by metro in the region in 2010.

Before the anti-LRT crowd start moaning about the car/tram accidnet, it would be wise to consider how many other car accidents happened in Vancouver yesterday at light controlled intersections. Even better, compare the amount of accidents at all light controlled intersections in Vancouver during the operation of the Olympic Line.

In general terms tram/road intersections are about ten times safer than road/road intersections and one can say by building LRT on-street reduces car crashes at light controlled intersections, and greatly lessens the asscociated costs of auto accidents on society.

Zweisystem recommends that auto drivers disobeying red lights at traffic intersections (both rail and road) and causing an accident receive an automatic six month suspension of their drivers license. A red light means stop!







----------------------------SKYTRAIN------LRT
Car crashes------------------no------------YES
Platform suicides-----------YES-------------YES
Platform accidents---------YES-------------YES (people falling into tracks when train arrives)
Track suicides--------------no---------------YES
Track pedestrian accidents---no------------YES (pedestrian accidents on the guideways, not at platforms)



nuff said when it comes to comparisons. Someone please spare us from faux reasoning and logic.

[nname]

----------------------------SKYTRAIN------LRT
Car crashes------------------no------------YES
Platform suicides-----------YES-------------YES
Platform accidents---------YES-------------YES (people falling into tracks when train arrives)
Track suicides--------------no---------------YES
Track pedestrian accidents---no------------YES (pedestrian accidents on the guideways, not at platforms)

What does this belong to? :D

eGTUq_nAIKE

[jsbertram]

Darwin Award Nominee?

[cabotp]

And I was hoping they would get run over :(

[RosstheBoss]

I think the only technology that should be used to go down Broadway is something that is grade separated. Trams have their uses and if placed right might do well here, however they are not the appropriate choice for such a busy transportation corridor as Broadway. I saw a thing on TV called destroyed in seconds and they were showing all the accidents of Houston’s LRT, soooo funny. On average Houston's LRT gets into an accident every 12 days, not what we want for somewhere like Broadway.