[WarrenC12]

I was driving along 2nd by the one single road crossing that the Olympic line has to make yesterday. On one of my ways past, there was a car ON THE TRACK waiting to make a right hand turn. His light was red. I didn't see the tram anywhere in sight.

On my return trip some hipster douchebag on a bike (no helmet of course), actually went over the track about 1-2 seconds before the tram. Any bump or loss of balance and he would have been dead. Ridiculous.

Clearly what is needed if we adopt more of this technology is arms or barricades that come down and completely block any travel of any kind. Or, plenty of dead idiots. Either way, it's additional cost.

[twoNeurons]

I was driving along 2nd by the one single road crossing that the Olympic line has to make yesterday. On one of my ways past, there was a car ON THE TRACK waiting to make a right hand turn. His light was red. I didn't see the tram anywhere in sight.

On my return trip some hipster douchebag on a bike (no helmet of course), actually went over the track about 1-2 seconds before the tram. Any bump or loss of balance and he would have been dead. Ridiculous.

Clearly what is needed if we adopt more of this technology is arms or barricades that come down and completely block any travel of any kind. Or, plenty of dead idiots. Either way, it's additional cost.

Barriers make complete sense there, if you ask me. I'd imagine the trams would be allowed to travel faster if there were barriers there, too.

[trofirhen]

All of this is making me think of "South Park." (esp. the sledding behind the train video)!!

Given the busy nature of Vancouver's streets (no freeways in the central city is a good thing, but it does mean that drivers are obliged to use the arterial road system, of which Broadway is a part), there will be a lot of cars on Vancouver streets for a long time to come. Given that, plus the vastly increased probability of a train - car collision using surface LRT rather than underground ALRT, isn't it obvious the direction we should be taking?

I cannot understand why this is even being debated so fiercely. The answer would seem plainly obvious to me. To many others, apparently not.

[cabotp]

I was driving along 2nd by the one single road crossing that the Olympic line has to make yesterday. On one of my ways past, there was a car ON THE TRACK waiting to make a right hand turn. His light was red. I didn't see the tram anywhere in sight.

On my return trip some hipster douchebag on a bike (no helmet of course), actually went over the track about 1-2 seconds before the tram. Any bump or loss of balance and he would have been dead. Ridiculous.

Clearly what is needed if we adopt more of this technology is arms or barricades that come down and completely block any travel of any kind. Or, plenty of dead idiots. Either way, it's additional cost.

I prefer the idea of "dead idiots."

All of this is making me think of "South Park." (esp. the sledding behind the train video)!!

Given the busy nature of Vancouver's streets (no freeways in the central city is a good thing, but it does mean that drivers are obliged to use the arterial road system, of which Broadway is a part), there will be a lot of cars on Vancouver streets for a long time to come. Given that, plus the vastly increased probability of a train - car collision using surface LRT rather than underground ALRT, isn't it obvious the direction we should be taking?

I cannot understand why this is even being debated so fiercely. The answer would seem plainly obvious to me. To many others, apparently not.

To me there is no debate. It has to be ALRT end of story. If I was in charge I'd just tell everyone to blow off as there will be no debate, I'm building ALRT and if you don't like it. Well tough luck.

But sadly politicans are just a bunch of pansies. :)

[lezard]

I prefer the idea of "dead idiots."



To me there is no debate. It has to be ALRT end of story. If I was in charge I'd just tell everyone to blow off as there will be no debate, I'm building ALRT and if you don't like it. Well tough luck.

But sadly politicans are just a bunch of pansies. :)

As far as I was concerned that wasn't the debate. But never mind.

[SpongeG]

Global news at 5 pm reported that the Olympic Line Street car shuts down Feb 28

how could they get it wrong?

it was lumped in with their report about how busy the pavillions are - you know how people are waiting for 6 hours to get into places like the mint pavillion etc - people want the pavillions left open longer

[Trantor]

Meant to mention this last week but forgot, I was under the impression that the street cars would be returned to Brussels, but one of the operators stated that one was heading back to Brussels and the other would be sent to Brazil. Anyone else hear why Brazil?

any idea what city in Brazil such streetcar will be sent to?

I know Porto Alegre has been intending to reactivate its street cars (system dismantled in the beginning of the 70s) for a long time, but as far as I know it would be the historic street cars.

[cabotp]

Global news at 5 pm reported that the Olympic Line Street car shuts down Feb 28

how could they get it wrong?

it was lumped in with their report about how busy the pavillions are - you know how people are waiting for 6 hours to get into places like the mint pavillion etc - people want the pavillions left open longer

So that means the pavillions will not be open during the paraolympics. To bad has I have no desire to wait in line for 6 hours. My time is worth more than standing in line. Even though I would love to see some of the pavillions.

[WarrenC12]

So that means the pavillions will not be open during the paraolympics. To bad has I have no desire to wait in line for 6 hours. My time is worth more than standing in line. Even though I would love to see some of the pavillions.

I agree. I've been skipping many pavillions due to lines. I'm hoping it will rain and we can check some more stuff out this weekend. :D

[LeftCoaster]

I found that rain made the pavillions worse... everyone wanted to get inside somewhere.

[GoogalieBear]

Global news at 5 pm reported that the Olympic Line Street car shuts down Feb 28

how could they get it wrong?

it was lumped in with their report about how busy the pavillions are - you know how people are waiting for 6 hours to get into places like the mint pavillion etc - people want the pavillions left open longer

I watched the same report too, I believe what they said was something like, "With the exception of the 3 houses and the Olympic Line Streetcar, everything will be shut down Feb 28." I too was confused at first from the way they said it, there wasn't enough of a pause between mentioning the Olympic Line and that things will be shut down, giving you the impression that it too was in the shut down group rather than being one of the exceptions. At least that's how I rationalized it playing the clip back in my mind knowing what is supposed to happen :)

[WarrenC12]

I found it interesting that LiveCity Downtown will remain up but Yaletown will go down.

[The_Henry_Man]

Just thinking suddenly, does anyone know the length of the platforms for the Olympic Line?

[SpongeG]

I watched the same report too, I believe what they said was something like, "With the exception of the 3 houses and the Olympic Line Streetcar, everything will be shut down Feb 28." I too was confused at first from the way they said it, there wasn't enough of a pause between mentioning the Olympic Line and that things will be shut down, giving you the impression that it too was in the shut down group rather than being one of the exceptions. At least that's how I rationalized it playing the clip back in my mind knowing what is supposed to happen :)

on the 5 oclock news deborra hope said it closes sunday when the games end

on the 6 oclock news the repoert didn't make the same mistake

Canada house will close and reopen for the paralympics

Northern Canada house will remain open until mid-april

[cabotp]

on the 5 oclock news deborra hope said it closes sunday when the games end

on the 6 oclock news the repoert didn't make the same mistake

Canada house will close and reopen for the paralympics

Northern Canada house will remain open until mid-april

What about the mint. Will we still be able to to see the medals during the Paraolympics.

[deasine]

Nope. The building is returned back to SFU.

[cabotp]

Oh ok. Well to bad. I'd love to see the medals. But I just don't feel like waiting in line for 6 hours.

[SpongeG]

they showed on the news that the mint was selling a gold coin for $200 but its actual value was $1000!

it sold out in the first week

[tybuilding]

Good news is you can visit BC Hydro's Powersmart Village until March 21.

[WarrenC12]

Good news is you can visit BC Hydro's Powersmart Village until March 21.

Any idea if that includes the Chevy Volt? I was looking forward to taking a peek at it.

[Vansterdam]

say what you want but this streetcar was a huge waste of money. This thing cost us over 12 million dollars to build to transport people like 8 blocks for 2 weeks then it's goes. More wasted taxpayer money, should have went into building a park or something.

[SpongeG]

its coming back - and the volunteer train will operate this summer as usual

things have to start somewhere

[zivan56]

say what you want but this streetcar was a huge waste of money. This thing cost us over 12 million dollars to build to transport people like 8 blocks for 2 weeks then it's goes. More wasted taxpayer money, should have went into building a park or something.

That certainly is a shortsighted way to think about it. The system was quite popular before it was upgraded, and was in need of a upgrade. It was built by volunteers using parts that were donated and vehicles/equipment that were loaned to them in the early 90s. So, either way, it was either upgrade it or not be able to use it much longer.
These upgrades included new rails and electrical equipment which essentially finally brought it up to standards. This allows it to be used for future use without having to upgrade it later on. Extended it further will also be cheaper, since only tracks and overhead wire be needed, and not a whole infrastructure upgrade. The lifespan of the equipment is at least 20 year even by conservative estimates. We also got 2 proper stations which meet standards for future trams to be used and are fully accessible.
Bombardier also donated money to have the old Brussels tram rebuilt and put back into service, this would have cost the city quite a bit of money. Likewise, the owners of Granville Island also paid a part of the costs to upgrade the line. So, when this is all over, we will have 2 interurban cars, 1 old Brussels tram, and full infrastructure in place.
In the end, I would say we got a huge bargain on building this. We even got free streetcars to use for a while to promote the use of streetcars to the general public as well. The line has also increased tourism at Granville Island, and will do so in the future as well. So, hardly a waste of money, it is a future investment in both public transportation and tourism.

[jsbertram]

say what you want but this streetcar was a huge waste of money. This thing cost us over 12 million dollars to build to transport people like 8 blocks for 2 weeks then it's goes. More wasted taxpayer money, should have went into building a park or something.

It may be considered a waste of money to you, but CoV wouldn't have rebuilt the tracks &tc. and Bombardier wouldn't have spent so much time and money getting the trains shipped here for just two months of demonstration.

Undoubtedly, Bombardier and CoV are hoping in the next few months for a chorus of "we need that streetcar" to get the line built from Granville Island, past Athletes Village, Science World, China Town, Gas Town, Waterfront and Stanley Park.

And Bombardier was certainly using it to showcase their trains in action to visiting Mayors, Councellors, Transportation Engineers, Premiers, Presidents &tc. so when they get back to their home, they too will say "we need that streetcar".

If nothing was built here in the next few years, or Bombardier doesn't make any sales from this demo, it will surely be a failure, but it's too early to say.

[SpongeG]

plus with ridership levels looked at the feds may kick in some money

[deasine]

Notice that the SkyTrain started with a demonstration track before it became our system that we have today.

[SpongeG]

maybe if we had a free housing car to the system people will get behind it

[Mac Write]

Bombiar is going to pay to restore the Brussels tram? Really? If a temp ramp could be put in at each station, the inter-urbands could technically be wheerchair accessible, which means with upto a month of work, we could have the Interurbans up and running as temp trains with wheelchair accessible service.

Here are some photos I took. Does it look wide enough to bring in a wheelchair?
http://photos.smugmug.com/photos/796580012_MdDyH-M.jpg
http://photos.smugmug.com/photos/796579958_F7jbN-M.jpg
http://photos.smugmug.com/photos/796579929_P6aCM-M.jpg

[zivan56]

^^ According to Matthew Laird of TRAMS, they made a "generous" donation to help with restoration (he wouldn't say how much). I am guessing the Brussels tram is the closest to a restorable state.
There are smaller wheelchairs which could be used to put people on, like they do on airplanes.

[Mac Write]

the other two have been restored, the brussels needs to be restored. It has no floor I heard from a friend who is apart of trams (as I am).

[WarrenC12]

I applaud everyone's optimism regarding the streetcar, but speaking as a CoV taxpayer, it was damn expensive. :(

[SpongeG]

taxes for the greater good

[ozonemania]

I applaud everyone's optimism regarding the streetcar, but speaking as a CoV taxpayer, it was damn expensive. :('Expensive' implies that this is somehow a consumable, like a magazine subscription or tickets to a Broadway show. I know it's semantics, but I like to think of these types of infrastructure projects as investments, not expenses.

[Yume-sama]

taxes for the greater good

I don't pay BC Taxes (well, other than property tax and PST! :P), so GO STREET CAR GO! :cool:

[SpongeG]

I don't pay Vancouver taxes where the money is from hehe

[WarrenC12]

'Expensive' implies that this is somehow a consumable, like a magazine subscription or tickets to a Broadway show. I know it's semantics, but I like to think of these types of infrastructure projects as investments, not expenses.

No, "expensive" implies "it cost a lost of money for what you are getting".

Looks like it's time for a tax on all you leeches crossing Boundary Rd or the various bridges to get into my fair city. :D

[Zassk]

No, "expensive" implies "it cost a lost of money for what you are getting".

Looks like it's time for a tax on all you leeches crossing Boundary Rd or the various bridges to get into my fair city. :D

Don't worry, I almost never bother to go into Vancouver anymore, and when I do, I take the rapid transit to do it. :) I wonder how regional travel patterns have changed over the years. There are way less reasons to cross into Vancouver than there used to be. The larger suburbs are very self-sufficient these days.

[WarrenC12]

Don't worry, I almost never bother to go into Vancouver anymore, and when I do, I take the rapid transit to do it. :) I wonder how regional travel patterns have changed over the years. There are way less reasons to cross into Vancouver than there used to be. The larger suburbs are very self-sufficient these days.

I keep hearing this, but it's tough to believe on an average Friday night downtown. Not to mention the last 2 weeks. :cool:

[BCPhil]

Don't worry, I almost never bother to go into Vancouver anymore, and when I do, I take the rapid transit to do it. :) I wonder how regional travel patterns have changed over the years. There are way less reasons to cross into Vancouver than there used to be. The larger suburbs are very self-sufficient these days.

As much as I like the White Rock Boardwalk and all the restaurants, that's all it is, a place to spend $40 on a meal or sit on the beach. It's not the same as Grandville Island Market.

Anything to make it easier to get me there, will get me going there more than once or twice a year for sure. During the trial run of the streetcar I've been to Granville Island more than in the past 3 years, and spent more money there than all my other visits combined. I'm sure I'm not the only one. I wonder what it could do for Gastown and Chinatown, and it would be amazing to have it run out to Stanley Park.

Yes the 19 goes to the park, but it goes down Pender street for crying out loud, how is a tourist (and most locals) supposed to find that after stepping off Skytrain? And what kind of average person has any idea where the 50 is actually going when it goes past your location? Eastbound on Pender says "Waterfront station" and Westbound on Water street says "False Creek South"! Plus a 2 block connection to Canada Line Olympic Village station is pathetic (where if you are going to GI, you have to get on the bus that says "Waterfront Station", how sooo intuitive).

I mean, this is a city where most people I talked to on the Skytrain during the Olympics have typically avoided it because they don't understand how the whole Expo/Millenium line thing works. You have no idea how many times I've been asked "Which train should I get on if I'm going to Metrotown?" or 22nd ave, or New West.

This city is filled with people who are not bright, who avoid transit because they have no idea where the buses actually go. Most people stick in their dedicated route home even when it's closed due to an accident because they don't know which other ways they can go. Having a dedicated, highly visible, streetcar hit all the tourist/casual stops in one line would go a long way to making this a more transit friendly city.

[SpongeG]

i know during the olympics i have over heard some people standing at burrard wanting to go to main street - the train for VCC clark pulled up and they said this doesn't go there this is not our train so they stood there on the platform waiting - idiots

[cabotp]

As much as I like the White Rock Boardwalk and all the restaurants, that's all it is, a place to spend $40 on a meal or sit on the beach. It's not the same as Grandville Island Market.

Anything to make it easier to get me there, will get me going there more than once or twice a year for sure. During the trial run of the streetcar I've been to Granville Island more than in the past 3 years, and spent more money there than all my other visits combined. I'm sure I'm not the only one. I wonder what it could do for Gastown and Chinatown, and it would be amazing to have it run out to Stanley Park.

Yes the 19 goes to the park, but it goes down Pender street for crying out loud, how is a tourist (and most locals) supposed to find that after stepping off Skytrain? And what kind of average person has any idea where the 50 is actually going when it goes past your location? Eastbound on Pender says "Waterfront station" and Westbound on Water street says "False Creek South"! Plus a 2 block connection to Canada Line Olympic Village station is pathetic (where if you are going to GI, you have to get on the bus that says "Waterfront Station", how sooo intuitive).

I mean, this is a city where most people I talked to on the Skytrain during the Olympics have typically avoided it because they don't understand how the whole Expo/Millenium line thing works. You have no idea how many times I've been asked "Which train should I get on if I'm going to Metrotown?" or 22nd ave, or New West.

This city is filled with people who are not bright, who avoid transit because they have no idea where the buses actually go. Most people stick in their dedicated route home even when it's closed due to an accident because they don't know which other ways they can go. Having a dedicated, highly visible, streetcar hit all the tourist/casual stops in one line would go a long way to making this a more transit friendly city.

Those kinds of people have always amazed me. I wonder how they actually survive. Do they find their way to their own bed :haha:

From a personal stand point. I just can't fathom being like they are. I'm the complete and totally opposite of them. I'm one of the lucky ones when it comes to spatial orientation. I can go to any city and within minutes I will have figured out what roads or transit to take to get to where I'm going. Mostly because I'm willing to spend the time reading maps and learning about the system. Hell it took me about 5 minutes as a 10 year old to let my family know exactly which trains we need to take on the london underground to get to where we want to go.

If people get confused on our system. I would hate to see what they would be like on big systems out there.

[WarrenC12]

If people get confused on our system. I would hate to see what they would be like on big systems out there.

In my world travels I'm very happy to jump on public transit for $5 or whatever. But I consistently see other North Americans, mostly older, hop in cabs for 3-4x the price, or more. There's nothing wrong with that though.. maybe I'll do it when I'm traveling in 20 years.

Who cares?

[lightrail]

As much as I like the White Rock Boardwalk and all the restaurants, that's all it is, a place to spend $40 on a meal or sit on the beach. It's not the same as Grandville Island Market.

Anything to make it easier to get me there, will get me going there more than once or twice a year for sure. During the trial run of the streetcar I've been to Granville Island more than in the past 3 years, and spent more money there than all my other visits combined. I'm sure I'm not the only one. I wonder what it could do for Gastown and Chinatown, and it would be amazing to have it run out to Stanley Park.

Yes the 19 goes to the park, but it goes down Pender street for crying out loud, how is a tourist (and most locals) supposed to find that after stepping off Skytrain? And what kind of average person has any idea where the 50 is actually going when it goes past your location? Eastbound on Pender says "Waterfront station" and Westbound on Water street says "False Creek South"! Plus a 2 block connection to Canada Line Olympic Village station is pathetic (where if you are going to GI, you have to get on the bus that says "Waterfront Station", how sooo intuitive).

I mean, this is a city where most people I talked to on the Skytrain during the Olympics have typically avoided it because they don't understand how the whole Expo/Millenium line thing works. You have no idea how many times I've been asked "Which train should I get on if I'm going to Metrotown?" or 22nd ave, or New West.

This city is filled with people who are not bright, who avoid transit because they have no idea where the buses actually go. Most people stick in their dedicated route home even when it's closed due to an accident because they don't know which other ways they can go. Having a dedicated, highly visible, streetcar hit all the tourist/casual stops in one line would go a long way to making this a more transit friendly city.

You are joking right? Because your points are insane and make no sense. How dumb do you think people are? And have you travelled in other cities and countries, where, buses and subway signs are not even in English. Imagine that. I actually found my way to the Alameda bus station in Santiago, Chile on the metro, and not one train or the station had the name Alameda anywhere. How did I do this amazing feat? I found a map., I looked it up. I interpreted the Spanish and used the symbols. I asked people (I don't speak Spanish, so charades and pointing the maps helps a lot. My point, people are not as stupid as you say - maybe lazy is a better word.

[Zassk]

I mean, this is a city where most people I talked to on the Skytrain during the Olympics have typically avoided it because they don't understand how the whole Expo/Millenium line thing works. You have no idea how many times I've been asked "Which train should I get on if I'm going to Metrotown?" or 22nd ave, or New West.

i know during the olympics i have over heard some people standing at burrard wanting to go to main street - the train for VCC clark pulled up and they said this doesn't go there this is not our train so they stood there on the platform waiting - idiots

I know this wasn't the main point of the discussion, but I really can't wait until Translink stops calling it the "Expo/Millennium" line after Evergreen is built. It's ridiculous. If we can call both spurs of the RAV line "Canada Line" without causing too much confusion, then we can call both spurs of the trunk SkyTrain line to Lougheed and King George "Expo Line". Give the east-west line its own name all the way to Coquitlam, either "Millennium" or "Evergreen", and keep it separate from Expo in concept - even if the trains actually run as they do now in reality.

I was relieved to see the Translink study that recommended bringing an end to the "interlining" of the two lines. It won't just help with train efficiency, it will also make the system much more understandable by those who don't use it every day. Naming an eastbound train "VCC-Clark" is probably the most confusing system we could have conceived. You understand the system, I understand the system, but the people we want to attract to transit don't understand the system.

[twoNeurons]

I think what's being overlooked here isn't the tram itself, but the convenience of it.

Let's face it, the tram was run sporatically, between 1PM and 5PM by volunteers only on the Weekends in the Summer.

It wasn't useful at all.

NOW it is connected to the Canada Line, almost directly.

With ANY kind of consistent service, even if it's only every 30minutes, it will do well.

If Vancouver can build it and run it, and receive revenue from Translink for any riders that use it, I'd say go for it!!

[AMTDGT]

I think what's being overlooked here isn't the tram itself, but the convenience of it.

*********

If Vancouver can build it and run it, and receive revenue from Translink for any riders that use it, I'd say go for it!!


I Agree

[BCPhil]

You are joking right? Because your points are insane and make no sense. How dumb do you think people are? And have you travelled in other cities and countries, where, buses and subway signs are not even in English. Imagine that. I actually found my way to the Alameda bus station in Santiago, Chile on the metro, and not one train or the station had the name Alameda anywhere. How did I do this amazing feat? I found a map., I looked it up. I interpreted the Spanish and used the symbols. I asked people (I don't speak Spanish, so charades and pointing the maps helps a lot. My point, people are not as stupid as you say - maybe lazy is a better word.

Thank you for the insults, much appreciated.

When signs aren't in English, they are usually in the language the locals speak. So I think that point is insane and makes no sense.

I think it's good that you can navigate around a transit system, and most people here on this board are the same. Give me a map and I can find anything. But I've encountered A LOT of people who can't. During the games, every time I've been on Expo/Millennium I've been asked, or have been within earshot of someone asking, which train goes where. Like SpongeG said, I've seen people at Waterfront go "This one is going to Millennium line, it won't take us to the Stadium". I was on a train to Surrey, and someone had to ask 3 different people if this train was going to 22nd ave or not before her mind was put at ease. I've been the section from Columbia to Sapperton where I've been asked if this train is going to Surrey. When I said "no" and explain what they need to do to get back, they asked where they could get a cab because they've given up.

These were all English speaking people, most likely locals, who can't figure out the Blue-Yellow line on a map. That's a small subset of the population, but I would confidently bet that there is an much larger number who can't figure out the system maps in stations that are covered in orange lines with numbers printed on them.

Not only are those maps a glutton of orange, but they don't include any of the names of the routes. Routes turn, crisscross, merge, and separate all over the map. And when you come out of a station you are normally turned around a bit, and most people don't instinctively know which way is North.

I'm not saying our transit system is horrible, infact the opposite. For someone willing to get some experience (grind your way through a few lower levels if you will), the system can take you anywhere. But to most people that is a barrier to entry. Most people still don't use the internet, don't have google maps on their phone.

I take transit all the time, and I still am a bit confused by exactly where some of the buses go. I'm good with maps so I can figure things out, but show a map for the 17 or the 50 to someone else and they'll ask what all the stupid arrows are for. Overlay that map ontop of all the other bus routes, and it's impossible for them.

A streetcar downtown would alievieate a lot of that frustration. The streetcar as it is proposed is a single, linear line through the heart of downtown, hitting everything of interest.

The Olympic streetcar is currently on some transit maps as a bright red line, similar to the Skytrain. It stands out, it explains itself. The stops are big dots that have names. If the line was extended around downtown, it would be simple. You want to go to Stanley Park, oh there is a big red dot there and the line goes right past Waterfront Stations (where there is another dot).

While a streetcar might not help people who are confused by the Expo/Millennium line, it would encourage a lot of other people to use more transit. For every one person confused and scared of Skytrain, there are at least 10 confused/scared of buses.

So Lightrail, in summation, maybe you missread my post, it's actually in full support of a streetcar system. While I point out there are some people who are confused by a simple map for Skytrain, they at least know what stations they want, but just are unsure of which train stops where. Imagine their confusion, and many more people's, at our bus maps. Removing a few orange lines off the map and replacing them with bright colored lines would help a lot of people to get out of their cars and take transit downtown.

[trofirhen]

I know this wasn't the main point of the discussion, but I really can't wait until Translink stops calling it the "Expo/Millennium" line after Evergreen is built. It's ridiculous. If we can call both spurs of the RAV line "Canada Line" without causing too much confusion, then we can call both spurs of the trunk SkyTrain line to Lougheed and King George "Expo Line". Give the east-west line its own name all the way to Coquitlam, either "Millennium" or "Evergreen", and keep it separate from Expo in concept - even if the trains actually run as they do now in reality.

I was relieved to see the Translink study that recommended bringing an end to the "interlining" of the two lines. It won't just help with train efficiency, it will also make the system much more understandable by those who don't use it every day. Naming an eastbound train "VCC-Clark" is probably the most confusing system we could have conceived. You understand the system, I understand the system, but the people we want to attract to transit don't understand the system.

... just a suggestion, but what about assigning a NUMBER to each line, giving each line a distinctive COLOUR on the map and on the signage, and having the terminus at each end as the directional indication, as they do here in Paris, like "Direction Porte D'Orléans," "Direction Gallieni," etc etc, with a map of the line, showing the total line with all its stations, with said maps posted at the entrance and on the platforms of each station on that line, indicating - with colour and a number - where the lines intersect (and a correspondance can be made) ?? That's how they do it in Paris, and it seems to work. Plus, their system is far larger than Vancouver's.

[Zassk]

Definitely, there is more that can be done. Having 3 lines and 2 of them colored blue is mindboggling, for example. :) Remember, it is the person who never uses transit whom we want to attract - a simple 3-line network should be very simple to understand. Anyway, I guess we should move this talk to the Transit thread.

[WBC]

You are joking right? Because your points are insane and make no sense. How dumb do you think people are? And have you travelled in other cities and countries, where, buses and subway signs are not even in English. Imagine that. I actually found my way to the Alameda bus station in Santiago, Chile on the metro, and not one train or the station had the name Alameda anywhere. How did I do this amazing feat? I found a map., I looked it up. I interpreted the Spanish and used the symbols. I asked people (I don't speak Spanish, so charades and pointing the maps helps a lot. My point, people are not as stupid as you say - maybe lazy is a better word.

Nope - he is not joking. I have witnessed this type of behavior by locals many times. And it is not just limited to old age - twiners are by far the most ignorant as far as the transit goes.

[WBC]

Definitely, there is more that can be done. Having 3 lines and 2 of them colored blue is mindboggling, for example. :) Remember, it is the person who never uses transit whom we want to attract - a simple 3-line network should be very simple to understand. Anyway, I guess we should move this talk to the Transit thread.

One of the things that Translink has done recently that is helpful is enumerating the platforms and putting announcements on the trains for the Broadway station (line change)

[jsbertram]

i know during the olympics i have over heard some people standing at burrard wanting to go to main street - the train for VCC clark pulled up and they said this doesn't go there this is not our train so they stood there on the platform waiting - idiots

Overheard on the Streetcar leaving Cambie: "Isn't this the train to the airport?"

I just smiled.

[jsbertram]

i know during the olympics i have over heard some people standing at burrard wanting to go to main street - the train for VCC clark pulled up and they said this doesn't go there this is not our train so they stood there on the platform waiting - idiots

And we can be just as idiotic.

Some relatives of mine (names omitted) were in Paris many years ago, and being Canadian Prairie-born their french was limited to Oui and Non.

They were heading back to their hotel after a day of sightseeing, and got confused with the metro directions they were given, so in a panic they left the station & found a cab on the street. Jumping in all they could think of doing was waving a fist of francs and shouting "Hotel Penta" "Hotel Penta!" "Hotel Penta!!"

The cabbie drove for a while & pulled up in front of the Hotel Penta. The cabbie took the fist of francs (they think it was over 100 francs, but weren't sure because "the money looked all the same"), and bid them adieu.

The next morning they left the hotel, walked around a corner and discovered the metro station they were lost in the day before - with a few cabs at the entrance waiting for more "Idiotes Americaines"

[cabotp]

And we can be just as idiotic.

Some relatives of mine (names omitted) were in Paris many years ago, and being Canadian Prairie-born their french was limited to Oui and Non.

They were heading back to their hotel after a day of sightseeing, and got confused with the metro directions they were given, so in a panic they left the station & found a cab on the street. Jumping in all they could think of doing was waving a fist of francs and shouting "Hotel Penta" "Hotel Penta!" "Hotel Penta!!"

The cabbie drove for a while & pulled up in front of the Hotel Penta. The cabbie took the fist of francs (they think it was over 100 francs, but weren't sure because "the money looked all the same"), and bid them adieu.

The next morning they left the hotel, walked around a corner and discovered the metro station they were lost in the day before - with a few cabs at the entrance waiting for more "Idiotes Americaines"

Thus proving that once you panic you are screwed. Never panic no matter how lost you think you are.

[jsbertram]

Thus proving that once you panic you are screwed. Never panic no matter how lost you think you are.

I think if they actually got 'screwed' they wouldn't have cared about the 100 francs.

[twoNeurons]

I ride the buses everyday, love maps... and I still avoid buses like the plague when I'm travelling. There's just no consistent way to tell where I'm going to end up... and If I go the wrong way, I have to get off, find the bus stop going back ( which isn't always in the same spot, like a station ) and hope I get on the right bus.

[Canadian Mind]

I ride the buses everyday, love maps... and I still avoid buses like the plague when I'm travelling. There's just no consistent way to tell where I'm going to end up... and If I go the wrong way, I have to get off, find the bus stop going back ( which isn't always in the same spot, like a station ) and hope I get on the right bus.

yea, but thats part of the adventure. happens to me alot in NYC and I've ended up from the northern half of queens all the way to the southern tip of the jersey shore, and everytwhere inbetween. :cheers:

[SpongeG]

I know this wasn't the main point of the discussion, but I really can't wait until Translink stops calling it the "Expo/Millennium" line after Evergreen is built. It's ridiculous. If we can call both spurs of the RAV line "Canada Line" without causing too much confusion, then we can call both spurs of the trunk SkyTrain line to Lougheed and King George "Expo Line". Give the east-west line its own name all the way to Coquitlam, either "Millennium" or "Evergreen", and keep it separate from Expo in concept - even if the trains actually run as they do now in reality.

I was relieved to see the Translink study that recommended bringing an end to the "interlining" of the two lines. It won't just help with train efficiency, it will also make the system much more understandable by those who don't use it every day. Naming an eastbound train "VCC-Clark" is probably the most confusing system we could have conceived. You understand the system, I understand the system, but the people we want to attract to transit don't understand the system.

true but its on the way - same thing happens on Canada line - I was at waterfront and some people wanted to go to oakrdige but the train said airport so they didn't get on it and said we need the richmond brighouse one

[cabotp]

I ride the buses everyday, love maps... and I still avoid buses like the plague when I'm travelling. There's just no consistent way to tell where I'm going to end up... and If I go the wrong way, I have to get off, find the bus stop going back ( which isn't always in the same spot, like a station ) and hope I get on the right bus.

The only solution to that is to read the transit map before venturing out. It would akin to just going out in a car and having no clue where a road goes.

[big T]

To be fair I too find Vancouver's system unnecessarily confusing, especially the signage and ticket vending machines.

Signage: at YVR, the few signs only say "Canada line". While I did my research before coming (and being a regular on SSP I knew full well what the Canada Line was about), wouldn't "Trains to downtown/Richmond" be more helpful to visitors?
Also, the handful of times I've used the Expo/Millenium line so far, it took me a bit of effort to figure out which of the two was the train coming into the station. I finally spotted the overhead sign, but a sign on the train itself would be far more useful. I also agree the system itself is confusing due to the interlining, but that is harder to fix and can somewhat effectively mitigated with maps.

Ticket vending machines: at least on the Canada line (haven't used them on the Expo/Milenium yet), these are downright horrible. The other day at the airport I tried to help a friend buy a ticket to North Van (via Seabus), and neither of us could figure out which zone that is. It is also my understanding that the whole system is Zone 1 on weekends, but it doesn't actually say so anywhere so I'm not sure. Finally, by far my biggest complaint is that those stupid machines sell tickets that have to be used right away (i.e. they are sort of auto-validated). Not only is this something I've never seen done anywhere else, but there is absolutely no warning on the machine itself! the first time my gf and I used the system, we bought four tickets at the start of our trip (knowing we would need to get back later), and only when trying to board the bus to come back did we find out the two tickets we had left were expired! this is insane, again this is the only system I've ever used where you can't buy tickets in advance. I've also heard you can buy "fare savers", but couldn't figure out the option to bu them on the machine.

I've been to many large cities and actually lived in a handful (including Montreal, Chicago and Paris) and this is definitely the most confusing system I've used, despite it being a paltry 3 lines. I hate to sound so whiny, but I believe there is a lot that can be done to improve things, and hopefully if the system grows TransLink will address it.

[mr.x]

^ i couldn't agree more...the wayfinding is still quite poor despite Translink's "improvements" and the ticket machines are poorly designed. Usernomic principles aren't used for designing out transit system.

[cabotp]

To be fair I too find Vancouver's system unnecessarily confusing, especially the signage and ticket vending machines.

Signage: at YVR, the few signs only say "Canada line". While I did my research before coming (and being a regular on SSP I knew full well what the Canada Line was about), wouldn't "Trains to downtown/Richmond" be more helpful to visitors?
Also, the handful of times I've used the Expo/Millenium line so far, it took me a bit of effort to figure out which of the two was the train coming into the station. I finally spotted the overhead sign, but a sign on the train itself would be far more useful. I also agree the system itself is confusing due to the interlining, but that is harder to fix and can somewhat effectively mitigated with maps.

Ticket vending machines: at least on the Canada line (haven't used them on the Expo/Milenium yet), these are downright horrible. The other day at the airport I tried to help a friend buy a ticket to North Van (via Seabus), and neither of us could figure out which zone that is. It is also my understanding that the whole system is Zone 1 on weekends, but it doesn't actually say so anywhere so I'm not sure. Finally, by far my biggest complaint is that those stupid machines sell tickets that have to be used right away (i.e. they are sort of auto-validated). Not only is this something I've never seen done anywhere else, but there is absolutely no warning on the machine itself! the first time my gf and I used the system, we bought four tickets at the start of our trip (knowing we would need to get back later), and only when trying to board the bus to come back did we find out the two tickets we had left were expired! this is insane, again this is the only system I've ever used where you can't buy tickets in advance. I've also heard you can buy "fare savers", but couldn't figure out the option to bu them on the machine.

I've been to many large cities and actually lived in a handful (including Montreal, Chicago and Paris) and this is definitely the most confusing system I've used, despite it being a paltry 3 lines. I hate to sound so whiny, but I believe there is a lot that can be done to improve things, and hopefully if the system grows TransLink will address it.

I understand what you are saying. Although if I'm in another city buying a ticket a machine. I just automatically assume that the ticket will be validated right away. Maybe that is due to the fact that I'm used to the system here and how it works.

I'm not positive as I have a monthly pass and don't have to buy tickets. But I do believe if you are buying a ticket at a TVM on a saturday or sunday when you don't have to pay for multiple zones. That even if you punch in to pay for 2 or 3 zones. The price it asks for you to pay is still only for a 1 zone price. Someone else can verify this.

[twoNeurons]

To be fair I too find Vancouver's system unnecessarily confusing, especially the signage and ticket vending machines.

Signage: at YVR, the few signs only say "Canada line". While I did my research before coming (and being a regular on SSP I knew full well what the Canada Line was about), wouldn't "Trains to downtown/Richmond" be more helpful to visitors?
Also, the handful of times I've used the Expo/Millenium line so far, it took me a bit of effort to figure out which of the two was the train coming into the station. I finally spotted the overhead sign, but a sign on the train itself would be far more useful. I also agree the system itself is confusing due to the interlining, but that is harder to fix and can somewhat effectively mitigated with maps.

Ticket vending machines: at least on the Canada line (haven't used them on the Expo/Milenium yet), these are downright horrible. The other day at the airport I tried to help a friend buy a ticket to North Van (via Seabus), and neither of us could figure out which zone that is. It is also my understanding that the whole system is Zone 1 on weekends, but it doesn't actually say so anywhere so I'm not sure. Finally, by far my biggest complaint is that those stupid machines sell tickets that have to be used right away (i.e. they are sort of auto-validated). Not only is this something I've never seen done anywhere else, but there is absolutely no warning on the machine itself! the first time my gf and I used the system, we bought four tickets at the start of our trip (knowing we would need to get back later), and only when trying to board the bus to come back did we find out the two tickets we had left were expired! this is insane, again this is the only system I've ever used where you can't buy tickets in advance. I've also heard you can buy "fare savers", but couldn't figure out the option to bu them on the machine.

I've been to many large cities and actually lived in a handful (including Montreal, Chicago and Paris) and this is definitely the most confusing system I've used, despite it being a paltry 3 lines. I hate to sound so whiny, but I believe there is a lot that can be done to improve things, and hopefully if the system grows TransLink will address it.

Excellent criticisms.

I can't count how many times even locals have been confused with the zone system... and it's not the system that is the problem... it's the implementation. Why not just have an option to "By zones" or "By destination"

That would make the system a LOT easier. Enter you destination and it tells you how much to pay.

I would love to see vending machines capable of selling Faresaver books. Something similar to the Oyster card machines in London.

[cabotp]

Excellent criticisms.

I can't count how many times even locals have been confused with the zone system... and it's not the system that is the problem... it's the implementation. Why not just have an option to "By zones" or "By destination"

That would make the system a LOT easier. Enter you destination and it tells you how much to pay.

I think once smart cards are implemented. And people pay by destination it will be better. Basically you tell the machine where you want to to and it tells you how much that will be.

[NetMapel]

Hopefully this fare paying problem will be fixed with the smart card implementation in 2013.

[nname]

Finally, by far my biggest complaint is that those stupid machines sell tickets that have to be used right away (i.e. they are sort of auto-validated). Not only is this something I've never seen done anywhere else, but there is absolutely no warning on the machine itself!

Actually, for all proof-of-payment systems I've been to, all of the tickets are validated at the time of purchase; but for all gated systems, you can purchase your tickets in advance. I guess its just the difference in the fare implementation. As for the warning, It was stated on the information board that the ticket expires 90 minutes after purchase, but I think not many people reads those...

[big T]

Actually, for all proof-of-payment systems I've been to, all of the tickets are validated at the time of purchase; but for all gated systems, you can purchase your tickets in advance. I guess its just the difference in the fare implementation. As for the warning, It was stated on the information board that the ticket expires 90 minutes after purchase, but I think not many people reads those...

Interesting point; now that you mention it, I don't remember ever using another non-gated system apart from Lyon, France a few years ago (which has since then transitioned to gated -- and even back then the machines would sell non-validated tickets which you would have to validate -- there was a gate of sorts, but it didn't physically block you from coming through whether you validated or not). I see what you mean though and on second thought it makes sense for a non-gated system not to require validation. I still think it could be made clearer though, as I honestly do not remember seeing that warning you mention -- I'll look for it next time.
Out of curiosity, where were those other non-gated systems you have used?

[SpongeG]

if its after 6 pm or on a weekend/holiday day when you press 3 zones it costs the price of a one zone fare - the price is next to the button as well and they all say $2.50

[hollywoodnorth]

I think we should consider using the Portland made UNITED STREETCARS if we build phase 1.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Streetcar

[jsbertram]

^ i couldn't agree more...the wayfinding is still quite poor despite Translink's "improvements" and the ticket machines are poorly designed. Usernomic principles aren't used for designing out transit system.

Dear TransLink:
If wayfinding information is important enough to scribble on a whiteboard, perhaps you should make a permanent poster instead.

ie: leaving the C-Line City Hall station, there is (was?) a whiteboard with instructions that the stop for 99 B-Line Eastbound to Broadway/Commercial was right out front, and the stop for 99 B-Line Westbound to UBC was across the street at London Drugs. Quite helpful info for the confused Olympic visitor, but why not have that printed on the inside wall over the gate entrance for everyone to read as they are leaving the station?

[jsbertram]

Actually, for all proof-of-payment systems I've been to, all of the tickets are validated at the time of purchase; but for all gated systems, you can purchase your tickets in advance. I guess its just the difference in the fare implementation. As for the warning, It was stated on the information board that the ticket expires 90 minutes after purchase, but I think not many people reads those...

I thought the fare tickets that the TVM machines spit out actually have the expiry date/time printed on them. No guessing needed.

I think the buses do the same. I've noticed when using a fresh faresaver ticket on a bus, you can hear it zip through the machine twice before popping back up as validated & date/time stamped.

[cabotp]

I thought the fare tickets that the TVM machines spit out actually have the expiry date/time printed on them. No guessing needed.

I think the buses do the same. I've noticed when using a fresh faresaver ticket on a bus, you can hear it zip through the machine twice before popping back up as validated & date/time stamped.

They do, but some people are used to systems that don't validate right away. So most likely they would not think to look at the ticket and see if there was an expiry time.

[twoNeurons]

Tickets bought at a SkyTrain station actually give 96 minutes. They allow for waiting time on the platform. Tickets always have an expiry that is in 6 minute increments. 00, 06, 12, 18, 24, 30, 36, 42, 48 and 54. I'm not sure what they do for tickets bought on the Canada Line when they're running every 15 minutes, but this makes traveling by train or by bus more or less equal.

Do the POP Systems that have advance purchase tickets have trains that run often?

One way to fix this is simple: Add an option to the TVMs: "Buy advance tickets"

[big T]

They do, but some people are used to systems that don't validate right away. So most likely they would not think to look at the ticket and see if there was an expiry time.

I would say this is not helping anyway -- once the ticket has been printed you're already screwed. Again, I've never used a machine before that sold pre-validated tickets, and I have to think many people are in the same case (especially visitors from bigger cities), so a clear on-screen warning before you pay would be nice.
Or, even better, sell non-validated tickets only and have people validate them when entering the fare paid zone. You know, like most places do.

Dear TransLink:
If wayfinding information is important enough to scribble on a whiteboard, perhaps you should make a permanent poster instead.

Agreed.

[cabotp]

I would say this is not helping anyway -- once the ticket has been printed you're already screwed. Again, I've never used a machine before that sold pre-validated tickets, and I have to think many people are in the same case (especially visitors from bigger cities), so a clear on-screen warning before you pay would be nice.
Or, even better, sell non-validated tickets only and have people validate them when entering the fare paid zone. You know, like most places do.


Agreed.

Ok so you switch it to tickets that are non-validated.

Meanwhile a local who is used to the current system. Goes to buy a ticket a TVM. They of course assume the ticket is validated right away. So they jump on to the train. Meanwhile a transit cop just happens to ask them to see their ticket. They happyily show it feeling they are ok. Oops your ticket isn't valid here is a $173 ticket.

I'm not saying that tickets should or shouldn't be validated right away. But the locals are used to the system we have here. If I'm going to another city. I'm going to make sure I understand how the system works. Some how this just feels like another example of people being too lazy to find out the info they need to know.

Besides this will probably change once fare gates and smart cards are used. And most likely anyone buying a ticket will have that ticket validated as soon as they put the ticket in the fare gate. So it would be kind of pointless to change the machines right now when in 3 years we would have the new system anyways.

[CPE]

That system should work once we get gates at our stations. but in the meantime, what we have is fine.

[big T]

I appreciate your response, and I'm definitely not trying to pick a fight with you (or anyone else here for that matter). However I disagree with your points here:

Ok so you switch it to tickets that are non-validated.

Meanwhile a local who is used to the current system. Goes to buy a ticket a TVM. They of course assume the ticket is validated right away. So they jump on to the train. Meanwhile a transit cop just happens to ask them to see their ticket. They happyily show it feeling they are ok. Oops your ticket isn't valid here is a $173 ticket.
Of course people are used to the current system, but by that logic nothing would ever change. People can learn new (hopefully better) ways of doing things. Plus it is much easier to educate locals than visitors -- you can run information campaigns for months before switching to a new system. And let'S be honest here, anyone who has traveled or ever watched a movie should have a rough idea of how to validate a ticket before accessing a subway platform.
Of course people wouldnt get tickets right the day after switching, either. I think it's fairly obvious that with any major change a grace period would follow, giving people a chance to understand the new system.

I'm not saying that tickets should or shouldn't be validated right away. But the locals are used to the system we have here. If I'm going to another city. I'm going to make sure I understand how the system works. Some how this just feels like another example of people being too lazy to find out the info they need to know.
Well, I guess thinking about it I'm kinda saying they should. It would just feel like a more "standard" way of doing things.
As for people being too lazy to research things ahead of time, well some things are so standardized that I would think most people don't even think they might even work differently. Like I said, of course I looked up the network map before flying in, and I also searched the Translink website for potential weekly fares (it appears there are none, but that was okay -- I know some systems offer this and some don't, so I checked -- I did however find something about Fare Savers but wasn't able to buy one once I got here, by the way). I didn't think I would need to check the validation scheme as all the systems I've ever used work the same way (buy first, validate later). By the way, I also didn't bother checking whether my Interac card would work in Vancouver ATMs, I just assumed that it would along with a million other things. When something differs from what can reasonably be expected, I don't think it's fair to ascribe confused visitors to "lazy researching".


Besides this will probably change once fare gates and smart cards are used. And most likely anyone buying a ticket will have that ticket validated as soon as they put the ticket in the fare gate. So it would be kind of pointless to change the machines right now when in 3 years we would have the new system anyways.
By the way, that's going to be quite a big change, so it kind of invalidates your first argument that "change is bad for locals". I do agree that it should make things better. I wasn't aware that smartcards were coming in my initial rant, so I'll humbly withdraw my criticisms and wait for our swipe-happy overlords to take over.

[cabotp]

I appreciate your response, and I'm definitely not trying to pick a fight with you (or anyone else here for that matter). However I disagree with your points here:


Of course people are used to the current system, but by that logic nothing would ever change. People can learn new (hopefully better) ways of doing things. Plus it is much easier to educate locals than visitors -- you can run information campaigns for months before switching to a new system. And let'S be honest here, anyone who has traveled or ever watched a movie should have a rough idea of how to validate a ticket before accessing a subway platform.
Of course people wouldnt get tickets right the day after switching, either. I think it's fairly obvious that with any major change a grace period would follow, giving people a chance to understand the new system.


Well, I guess thinking about it I'm kinda saying they should. It would just feel like a more "standard" way of doing things.
As for people being too lazy to research things ahead of time, well some things are so standardized that I would think most people don't even think they might even work differently. Like I said, of course I looked up the network map before flying in, and I also searched the Translink website for potential weekly fares (it appears there are none, but that was okay -- I know some systems offer this and some don't, so I checked -- I did however find something about Fare Savers but wasn't able to buy one once I got here, by the way). I didn't think I would need to check the validation scheme as all the systems I've ever used work the same way (buy first, validate later). By the way, I also didn't bother checking whether my Interac card would work in Vancouver ATMs, I just assumed that it would along with a million other things. When something differs from what can reasonably be expected, I don't think it's fair to ascribe confused visitors to "lazy researching".



By the way, that's going to be quite a big change, so it kind of invalidates your first argument that "change is bad for locals". I do agree that it should make things better. I wasn't aware that smartcards were coming in my initial rant, so I'll humbly withdraw my criticisms and wait for our swipe-happy overlords to take over.

Maybe it isn't so much that "the locals" can't change. Maybe it is more along the lines of why should they change. Just because another city does it one way doesn't mean we have to do the same thing. I realize it is frustrating for a foreigner who comes from another city with a different way of doing things. It just goes back to the old saying of "When in rome do as the romans do" No matter how much you might think that how they do it is stupid.

I'm sure there are things done in Mtl that would confuse me. Not that I can think of any has I haven't been there in quite a long time not since I was a teenager for a one day trip.

But I do feel that smart cards will be better than the current system. Especially for people who use transit regularly. And hopefully the pricing system will be more fair.

[SpongeG]

only 6 more days :(

SWld-cy3Lak

[Vancity]

That's too bad that it'll end so soon.

When are they going to begin Phase 1?

[cabotp]

:previous:

When they figure out a way on how to get money to grow on trees :haha:

[s211]

:previous:

When they figure out a way on how to get money to grow on trees :haha:

I can see it now:

GREGOR: "When Vancouver becomes the greenest city on the planet, money will literally grow on trees. Until then, however, fork over the carbon taxes so that I can spend them on a boondoggle that Translink has already passed on."

[twoNeurons]

Of course people are used to the current system, but by that logic nothing would ever change. People can learn new (hopefully better) ways of doing things. Plus it is much easier to educate locals than visitors -- you can run information campaigns for months before switching to a new system. And let's be honest here, anyone who has traveled or ever watched a movie should have a rough idea of how to validate a ticket before accessing a subway platform.


Faregates would change the system, no doubt. All tickets would be non-validated. Once you enter the gate for the first time, it would be validated.

For a POP system, there's no reason to force an extra step. This complicates the system. Remember, less is more.

There's possibly an argument for including an option on the TVMs, however. I can't remember the screen order, but perhaps on the choose a zone page you could have a "Prepaid fares" button. Remember, however, that the system is further complicated by the after 6:30PM price change... so either way, you end up with a more complex system.

Faregates would solve the prepaid issue and improve user's experience. pre-paid bus tickets could be bought there too... after all you may be waiting for your bus for up to 30 minutes... eating up your transfer time.

[flight_from_kamakura]

regarding the fare control/validation points (which ought sort of belong in another thread, but i've never been one to let that interfere with my posts), ex libris (http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/national/transit-wars-vancouver-good-toronto-bad-not-quite/article1499617/):

A PricewaterhouseCoopers report estimated TransLink fare evasion of $6.4-million, or 2.1 per cent of 2006 fare revenues totalling $309-million. The highest fare evasion rate, of 5.4 per cent, was on SkyTrain, according to the same report. The report found that there is a less than 1 per cent chance of fare evasion resulting in a ticket.

by contrast, in toronto, which is 100% box/gate controlled:

The transit service has a fare evasion rate of approximately 1 per cent. Estimated revenues this year are $940-million, so 1 per cent is a significant chunk of change.

fyi. though 2006 wouldn't get all of the bus evasion that comes as a result of the newish policy freeing the drivers from fare control.

[flight_from_kamakura]

hm, i wonder if it might make sense to get some of these businesses to kick in for the lrt plan? the new casino, pavco, gma, concord, etc. also, one could imagine some sort of supplementary fee levy on all future developments in the lrt corridors, and a creative amortization calculation that would let the city borrow against future revenues derived to build the line out. that said, capital costs are really only half the problem - the provincial government would basically have to order translink to assume responsibility for operating the thing, though one imagines raising the capital would be enough to convince the government to do so. just thinking out loud.

[BCPhil]

hm, i wonder if it might make sense to get some of these businesses to kick in for the lrt plan? the new casino, pavco, gma, concord, etc. also, one could imagine some sort of supplementary fee levy on all future developments in the lrt corridors, and a creative amortization calculation that would let the city borrow against future revenues derived to build the line out. that said, capital costs are really only half the problem - the provincial government would basically have to order translink to assume responsibility for operating the thing, though one imagines raising the capital would be enough to convince the government to do so. just thinking out loud.

I don't think you need a scheme that complex. The issue isn't really money, it's perception. People outside of the City of Vancouver (the majority of people in BC) are opposed to seeing more money spent inside the city. Even if a streetcar network were cheap, or even made money, it's still bad PR that Translink unfortunately can't survive in it's current state.

A simple streetcar network in downtown could easily pay for itself and would be an easy target for a P3. The city owns the land the tracks would run on, and can offer them up for a $1 lease to Bombardier, Alstrom, or Siemens and the private company builds the line and supplies the trains. In return they keep all the money generated by passengers and/or receive payments from the City or Translink. If the private partner didn't have to pay for land acquisition, a streetcar in downtown Vancouver would be good business, as it was at the turn of the century before the car.

There are also other P3 options that can be used so that the taxpayer need not invest much more than what has already been spent on studies and ROW reservation.

The real problem is that the people at Translink think they will be lynched by the mayors (read: of Burnaby and Port Moody) if they come anywhere close to supporting more construction in Vancouver before the burbs get some Gold Plated projects. A streetcar in the downtown core can work, and work well, but it won't generate popular support from most people outside the City itself.

Hopefully this demonstration project has opened some eyes and changed some minds. Maybe enough people rode the streetcar and enjoyed it enough to openly support (or at least not oppose) a streetcar system like the one shown downtown. Hopefully most people, after trying it, can realize what it can do, in conjunction with Skytrain, for transit in the entire region.

[cabotp]

I don't think you need a scheme that complex. The issue isn't really money, it's perception. People outside of the City of Vancouver (the majority of people in BC) are opposed to seeing more money spent inside the city. Even if a streetcar network were cheap, or even made money, it's still bad PR that Translink unfortunately can't survive in it's current state.

It is sad really. Vancouver gets crapped on for getting the majority of transit service in the past. And yet at the same time it has the higher per capita ridership and warrants the greater service for the simple fact that it is generally more used than anywhere else.

I really wonder what those people would think if they actually lived in Vancouver and took transit on a regular basis.

But alas I'll pack myself into an already full bus while I breath down the neck of the chick in front of me.

Of course I'm not saying that other regions don't deserve better service. Because they do.

[CLC]

Anyone went to see the streetcar rally at Olympics Line station?

Another stupid article appeared on Vancouver Sun, I almost thought it was written by Zwei:
http://www.vancouversun.com/travel/Vancouver+city+hall+should+this+streetcar/2706753/story.html

the project is a perfect one for a public-private partnership where a private company designs, builds, operates and maintains the streetcar line in return for the fare box revenue and perhaps a small operating subsidy. If the city was willing to entertain a corporate sponsor being granted naming rights for the streetcar line, it's likely that subsidy could be covered with annual advertising fees from naming rights. In effect, the streetcar line could be built and operated at little or no cost to taxpayers.

did the author even knows how costly for operating tram that needs to run every 2 minutes? what about maintenance?

[deasine]

The idea itself is okay to write about, but I hate corporate station names. Next Stop... BURGER KING!

[CLC]

^ Well, that author "assumed" that the 3-billion Broadway skytrain extension would not happen. At the same time he tries to convince people streetcar can have virtually no costs to taxpayer to build and operate.:tup:

I read more carefully his plan has no mentions of Science World and towards Downtown. So he is just another supporter of tram-for-Broadway corridor. The most genius part is the tram stop as far as Arbutus, so no construction of whatever kinds will happen further west!

The Olympic Line streetcar project can be built for one quarter the cost of any SkyTrain extension. The city owns most of the right-of-way that would allow a streetcar to run between the Clark Drive SkyTrain station, the Canada Line Olympic Village station and Granville Island. It wouldn't be that difficult to secure a right-of-way all the way to Arbutus Street. This routing would tie together all the SkyTrain lines and service the densest part of the Broadway corridor. A rapid bus line from Arbutus could adequately continue to service UBC.

[Kwik-E-Mart]

The most genius part is the tram stop as far as Arbutus, so no construction of whatever kinds will happen further west!

Looks like we have another creme de la creme after reading this article.

Anyways, someone should write to the Sun about the financial fiasco surrounding Toronto's St. Clair West streetcar line, how the costs escalated to over $100 million per km, and the implications to the Broadway corridor should streetcars run along there (safety, speed, etc).

[MalcolmTucker]

^ lol, not $100 million per kilometer, $105 million for the entire 6.8 km project. (doesn't include vehicle cost)

[SpongeG]

the money for it ic city money not provincial money people in kelowna won't be paying for it

[The_Henry_Man]

I'm in the process of editing a video that I shot when I took the Hiawatha LRT Line in Minneapolis-St.Paul 2 weeks ago. I'll put it up sometime in the next week or two. It's 19.5km in length, similar to the C-Line. This will easily convince you why it's a dumb decision to do a streetcar line on Broadway.

[SpongeG]

we are going to end up with both skytrain by translink and street car by city hall

[zivan56]

^^ Doesn't some law forbid anybody except Translink (and its subcontractors) to provide transit service in Metro Vancouver?

[SpongeG]

no - we have the blue busses from west vancouver
coquitlam had plans to start its own bus service unless service improved

this project is a vancouver city project started and driven by the city paid for by the city - they will need money from other levels of government at some point i guess and theres nothing wrong with that

[deasine]

That's because they are existing services. Anything new must be approved by TransLink, but if senior gov'ts are working in addition to TransLink, I can't see why they aren't going to take part, as long as they aren't giving up any more money.

[jlousa]

I'm not actually sure what that law entails as the false creek ferries are a transit service are they not?

[ozonemania]

Arghhh tomorrow's the last day... :( Bye bye Olympic Line... noooooo.

I'm sure it will be busy but I'm planning to ride it a few times tomorrow. Gonna hit GI, and then off to Richmond for a tastey lunch maybe at Aberdeen.

I just want to thank the City for this wonderful demonstration project. I would really like to see this network as proposed get developed further.