[leftopolis]

Um, does anybody read other people's posts anymore? Not to beat a dead horse, but in posts 87 & 88 I posted links to the developer's website as well as the official website for Abraj Al-Bait towers. There is no giant clock feature, yet people seem to be discussing it as if it is still part of the plan. The clock rendering on page 1 of this thread is nearly a year old--current renders are sans clock. Does anybody have an opinoin on the latest design?

[M II A II R II K]

The latest design on the first post did have the clock which is why we assumed that was the latest design, and plus the diagram of this building still has the clock.

[Xeelee]

not bad

[Tom In Chicago]

This is the current rendering from the developers Website. . . I lifted it from the PDF document and uploaded it to my online gallery. . .

http://www.pbase.com/temper/image/90610551.jpg

[StarScraperCity]

I am so glad they got rid of the clock. This one sure is a beauty now.:)

[ThreeHundred]

It looks almost Stalinist. Like one of the 7 Sisters in Moscow.

[verticalextropy]

my eyes still hurt

[delts145]

Looks like a mix of the Venetian in Las Vegas and Big Ben.

I immediately thought the Strip in Vegas. I'm thinking a new Aladdin Hotel/Casino.

[FlyersFan118]

jeez, that's crazy!

[alphawolf]

I immediately thought the Strip in Vegas. I'm thinking a new Aladdin Hotel/Casino.

Exactly what I was thinking. I can smell the outcry.

[Tom In Chicago]

Yeah. . . it isn't really all that groundbreaking outside of its height, but the design is somewhat common for modern buildings on the Arabian Peninsula. . .

[harryc]

Exactly what I was thinking. I can smell the outcry.

Somebody pointed out here or on SSC that - at the time - St Paul's cathedral was THE architectural feat.

http://www.greatbuildings.com/buildings/St_Peters_of_Rome.html

[alphawolf]

Yeah, very curious of how the internal features are going to come out in comparison to lets say, St Paul's. I hope its something noteworthy.

[Alliance]

Yeah. . . it isn't really all that groundbreaking outside of its height, but the design is somewhat common for modern buildings on the Arabian Peninsula. . .

Its location is what's groundbreaking...

as tho height, a good potion of the bulding is still spire.

[firulais]

How does a building 1952 ft pinnacle only have 76 floors?

[leftopolis]

How does a building 1952 ft pinnacle only have 76 floors?

From the Dar Group (the developer) website which I hotlinked to in post #87 of this thread:

"The tallest tower with over 100 floors - a 2,000-room, 5-star hotel..."

Also from that site, a bit of information on the spire:

The hotel's top levels are crowned with the project's "Jewel" the 4-storey Lunar Center housing a museum, library and telescope dome, along with helicopter control tower, and a spire with telecom tower and upper viewing deck

[John Hinds]

This is the current rendering from the developers Website. . . I lifted it from the PDF document and uploaded it to my online gallery. . .

As the first post in this thread said, that's the 2005 design.

They just haven't got around to updating their website with this monstrosity of a design that was released a few months ago.

http://img339.imageshack.us/img339/3158/dokaaeua3.jpg

It's a disgrace that UNESCO has allowed them to build a smegging Vegas x10 sized hotel next to such a religious site demolishing hundreds of ancient buildings in the process.

Anyone know what they are building on the site in the bottom right of this picture?

[M II A II R II K]

Funny

That they can go to the trouble to build such a thing but can't update their website.

So does this have the clock or not...

[Tom In Chicago]

Yeah. . . I'd like to know too. . .

[Dr. Taco]

well, it might as well have a clock, i guess

[navyweaxguy]

The clock would make sense for ensuring people know how close they are to call to prayer.

[1ajs]

so any construction updates?

... the latest thing on flickr i can find is this posted november 13th
http://www.flickr.com/photos/chinx786/2000596661/
http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2355/2000596661_0973515145_b.jpg

[Brian.]

Wow...that just doesn't belong. It's interesting as a structure but seeing it in its environment is just out of place.

[1ajs]

why? i think it fits in also if your heading there to worship and get lost all yea gota do is look up and see what orientation to it you are... :P

[Scruffy]

As a guiding landmark its good. but i too think it doesn't fit in with the landscape. reminds me of how that unfinished hotel in Pyongyang sticks out in its surroundings. this ofcourse being much nicer

[leftopolis]

so any construction updates?

... the latest thing on flickr i can find is this posted november 13th


That's more recent than anything I could find. It looks like we'll know soon enough about the final design--judging by the pic you posted, they're just about up to the part in question. Another apparent irony is the lack of any non-conflicting or current documentation wrt this maligned monolith.

[1ajs]

its a shame its not geting any publicity for its sheer size realy outside this thread :(

but not knowing how tall it was supost to be you would sware thats the burj dubi lol

[John Hinds]

Anyone know what they are building on the site in the bottom right of this picture?

Yuk... please tell me it's not this!

http://farm1.static.flickr.com/145/415416994_1c157b7898_o.jpg

:yuck:

[firulais]

Those are fugly!

[Aleks]

Looks like those buildings you posted Johnny are the ones that are going to be built there. I had no idea Mecca had hills, I thought it was flat!

What I really don't get is the hole top thing. We'll have to wait, or e-mail the developers. Burj Dubai doesn't update too often either. Also, does anybody know how wide does roads are? A project this big must need a freeway as an entrance for tall the people leaving Mecca and arriving to Mecca.

[sfguy]

its a shame its not geting any publicity for its sheer size realy outside this thread :(

but not knowing how tall it was supost to be you would sware thats the burj dubi lol

yeah, except Dubai doesn't have any hills like Mecca does, but I see your point given that it does look way out of place like the BD does.

[leftopolis]

...What I really don't get is the hole top thing. We'll have to wait, or e-mail the developers....

If you or someone else is so inclined, here's some contact information I found for the Dar Group in Saudi Arabia:

khobar@dargroup.com
Al-Babteen Bldg., 6th Fl., Apt. 3/6
Al-Dhahran St.
P.O. Box: 182
Al-Khobar 31952

Tel: +966 (0)3 896 0599
Fax: +966 (0)3 896 1612
Al-Khobar
Makkah Road
P.O. Box: 1231, Khafje 31971

Tel: +966 (0)3 7662971
Fax: +966 (0)3 7671823
Khafji
riyadh@dargroup.com
King Fahd Road, Olaya
Al-Mass Centre No. 802
P.O. Box: 612, Riyadh 11421

Tel: +966 (0)1 201 3001
Fax: +966 (0)1 201 2827
Riyadh
jeddah@dargroup.com
Al-Andalos Street
Al-Ruwais
Beside SAMBA Bank
P.O. Box: 910
Jeddah 21421

Tel: +966 (0)2 653 3416
Fax: +966 (0)2 653 3364
Jeddah
Al-Aziziyah
P.O. Box: 6310

Tel: +966 (0)2 556 6564
Fax: +966 (0)2 550 3629
Holy Makkah
Villa No.3, Al-Jameat Road
Al-Jurf Suburb
P.O. Box: 4648

Tel: +966 (0)4 847 4403
Fax: +966 (0)4 847 4248
Madinah

[1ajs]

Looks like those buildings you posted Johnny are the ones that are going to be built there. I had no idea Mecca had hills, I thought it was flat!

What I really don't get is the hole top thing. We'll have to wait, or e-mail the developers. Burj Dubai doesn't update too often either. Also, does anybody know how wide does roads are? A project this big must need a freeway as an entrance for tall the people leaving Mecca and arriving to Mecca.

i think you come in on foot gota remeber theres like 2 or 3 million people that show up for his single event... and people from all corners of the word show up there so imagin the cayos... its crazzy

[Aleks]

Yeah, but I mean the roads leaving the parking of the building. How wide are they? I assume the roads leave the buildings on the opposite side of the temple. And I assume rich people who drive go there too since they're building a luxury hotel.

[skymetalscraper]

this buildning look completely out of place

[M II A II R II K]

At least it will stand out.

[Spocket]

I think it's good every now and then to have a building that initially makes you go "Ewwww...what IS that ?" Once this thing is complete, I have a feeling that it will become iconic and I mean that in a good way. It IS unique because of it's scale, it's situation, even it's raison d'etre. It's so ugly it's beautiful. It's so out of place that it's going to define the place that it's in.

[bassem]

i think that there is no need for wide roads in mecca as i guess that u might rarely find a car there as there are very few inhabitants in mecca and all pilgrims arrive either by planes or through the red sea
they only need more hotels there rather than any other thing, i heard that most of pilgrims stay in tents there

[br.reese]

It already stands out at 300 ft.

[Alliance]

I disagree that ugly architecture can be considered beautiful.

[firstcranialnerve]

I agree, this is quite an ugly, backward design. Were they limited to something uninspiring because it would distract the people praying in the grand mosque?

[Alliance]

I think the Mosque itself is practically indomitable. I think its jsut a case of uninspired, if not poor design.

[Lecom]

I think it's good every now and then to have a building that initially makes you go "Ewwww...what IS that ?" Once this thing is complete, I have a feeling that it will become iconic and I mean that in a good way. It IS unique because of it's scale, it's situation, even it's raison d'etre. It's so ugly it's beautiful. It's so out of place that it's going to define the place that it's in.
The Eiffel Tower rationale. Good point.

[zerokarma]

So is the clock in the final design or not

[kenratboy]

so any construction updates?

... the latest thing on flickr i can find is this posted november 13th
http://www.flickr.com/photos/chinx786/2000596661/
http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2355/2000596661_0973515145_b.jpg

Just on its own, that is an awesome picture, the whole city looks very interesting (but I don't think they would take kindly to my kind).

Oh well, its theit city, who are we to judge them :cool:

[Surrealplaces]

Those are some pretty ugly buildings. Who designed those, and got paid for it??

[Surrealplaces]

so any construction updates?

... the latest thing on flickr i can find is this posted november 13th
http://www.flickr.com/photos/chinx786/2000596661/
http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2355/2000596661_0973515145_b.jpg

Well, the buildings may be ugly, but this shot of the city is great.

[johnandahalf]

so any construction updates?

... the latest thing on flickr i can find is this posted november 13th
http://www.flickr.com/photos/chinx786/2000596661/
http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2355/2000596661_0973515145_b.jpg

Looks like a city on the moon. Have they no trees? No nurseries? No landscaping of any kind? It just looks so "crumbly" to me.

ô¿ô

[PhxSprawler]

Looks like a city on the moon. Have they no trees? No nurseries? No landscaping of any kind? It just looks so "crumbly" to me.

ô¿ô

It is a desert.

[the urban politician]

I think this thing will be gorgeous.

I hate some of you architecture elitists, who would praise this exact structure if it were built in 1890, yet seem to loathe it now. What a silly, fickle group of nitwits some of you are..

[Nowhereman1280]

I think this thing will be gorgeous.

I hate some of you architecture elitists, who would praise this exact structure if it were built in 1890, yet seem to loathe it now. What a silly, fickle group of nitwits some of you are..

Are you kidding me? I usually agree with you about "architecture elitists" but with a design like this it doesn't matter what year it was built in, its got horrible proportions and will look extremely cheesy because of that. just look at how awkwardly large the top of the main tower is, it look's about 50% larger than it should be.

Not to mention this will probably be clad in some horrid material like Precast or painted concrete that will add to the cheese over time...

[gttx]

I hate some of you architecture elitists, who would praise this exact structure if it were built in 1890, yet seem to loathe it now. What a silly, fickle group of nitwits some of you are..

No one in their right mind would have built something this ugly in 1890.

[Brian.]

Not to mention this will probably be clad in some horrid material like Precast or painted concrete that will add to the cheese over time...

OUCH...that's gonna leave a mark...:grrr:

[Complex01]

Hmm, i really dont know what to say about this one. So i will just look at the picture again...

:shrug:

[johnandahalf]

It is a desert.

So's Phoenix, but they have trees there. It's not like Mecca's new & they just haven't had a chance to put in some plants. It looks misersable.

They should move it all to Orlando, since that's where so many people already make their pilgrimage each year. :justkidding:

ô¿ô

[Boquillas]

How I feel about the building seems immaterial compared to how fascinating I find that photo. If no other talls come to be built in Makkah, this building will be an icon regardless.

BTW, I see some Tamarisk trees in that photo, but most are likely to be found in the canyons and drainages between hills and along creeks and streams, not directly on hillsides. And if I'm not mistaken, Phoenix doesn't have trees on hillsides either. Of course, we all know that Phoenix's landscaping comes at great expense to their water supply.

[High Pointer]

Having hiked Phoenix's 3 highest mountains, I can confirm that they do not. The newer suburbs are using more desert landscaping, so there are still some but fewer trees. As far as natural trees go, you need to get about 5000' up into the surrounding mountains to find any.

But back on topic--how tall has the main portion gotten, roughly?

[Surrealplaces]

I think this thing will be gorgeous.

I hate some of you architecture elitists, who would praise this exact structure if it were built in 1890, yet seem to loathe it now. What a silly, fickle group of nitwits some of you are..

I t would be ugly if it was built back then too. It's just a case of a building being ugly, no other way to look at it. No matter how much lipstick you try to put on this one, it's still a pig.

[Down_Under_the_El]

I don't know... if this was built in 1890 it would be pretty amazing.

It's kinda tall. :D

[CGII]

So's Phoenix, but they have trees there. It's not like Mecca's new & they just haven't had a chance to put in some plants. It looks misersable.

And all of those trees make Phoenix the model of sustainability.

[eyeinthesky]

I saw this thread at the top of the list and decided to check it out again after a long time. I dont know if its been mentioned, but this thing to me looks like it would be on the strip in Las Vegas. The side towers could be the hotel rooms and casino straight ahead.

[JManc]

this building is garish but considering the layout of mecca (small buildings hemmed in by mountains) and the magnitude of the amount of pilgrims, it makes sense. i doubt there are many motel 6's and holiday inn's along the freeway around mecca.

[mudvayneimn]

I really do not like the clock tower, but I've always liked this project. I think the current version is crap, I fell in love with the 2005 design. Either way though, this is an amazing project for it's location. It will dominate like no other. :)

[yarabundi]

It does make sense but notheless, the design is not respectful neither of its natural environement nor of the Mecca's mosque.

My 3000th posts !!

[Apex]

I really do not like the clock tower, but I've always liked this project. I think the current version is crap, I fell in love with the 2005 design. Either way though, this is an amazing project for it's location. It will dominate like no other. :)

I wasn't aware that there was ever any version but the current one. ... Could you link us elsewhere?

[glezgayol]

any updates for this tower?:(

[photoLith]

so any construction updates?

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2355/2000596661_0973515145_b.jpg

wow this is one of the strangest looking and most interesting cities I have ever seen. Incredible, look at those basaltic mountains, incredible! I dont particularly like the tower, but what the heck, right? I sure hope to Allah that they didnt destroy any thousand year old structures while building this, since it is across from Islams most holy site. I am sure they destroyed something important to suck off the money from the pilgrims.

[1ajs]

^^^ that hotel is seriously needed though....

[austlar1]

Posted by Riyadhi on SSC

Looks like the huge Hotel tower is finally rising

http://img176.imageshack.us/img176/1417/5ybzkonxp6.jpg

http://img413.imageshack.us/img413/5682/6exxs3adm2.jpg

Can you imagine something like that being constructed on the edge of Vatican City. It is a really different mindset from the West.

[CALMSP]

I had never seen a picture of Mecca before........but certianly not what I expected. Like many others I imagine..........I pictured Mecca to be nothing but sand sand and a little bit more sand. Hmmmm.

[M.K.]

The pictures above seems some new development in other hard living planet. It is kind of like the Endevour or some space shuttle landed in other planet some time ago to make a village or small town for mine and minerals searching. Then this huge Tower to control the selvagerie among all kind of people, mainly prisoners or all type of humanoids to conquest the new desert planet. It is a good scenary next Stars Wars film... and here in Earth. Because of this special Caracter I would like sometime to visit, of course not as pilgrim, but some tourist amenities in this huge hotel.:tup: My question: Where are the spaceships on photo skies??

[yarabundi]

I can't believe that Muslims let that happen. After all, it's their own sacred ground : they do what they want with it but it is in my opinion disrespectful of the holly ground.

[photoLith]

Yeah something like this would never ever happen in the western world. I mean that thing would totally destroy the historical feel of that area by having one of the worlds tallest buildings by it and not like the people that travel there will really be able to stay in it, since I doubt many of them could afford staying there at all. Its a shame.

[cactus22minus1]

I agree that it seems in a place of such high spiritual regard, that a purely money making, ego-driven project is built literally next door.. overpowering the place of worship.

And for those of you who would like to visit someday.. I hope you're Muslim. Non-Mulsims are not allowed in Mecca.. Saudi law.. look it up. :gtfo2:

[Yasir]

Hi,

I'm new here. I couldn't find an introduce yourself section anywhere so I think I'll just introduce myself here. :) I'm Yasir from Jeddah, Saudi Arabia, I've been visiting this site for years and might have even signed up before (can't recall) but this is my first post.

About the Abraj al Bait Project, it isn't really about ego or making money. The complex is, as far as I know, a waqf project which means that it is is for charity. The complex is not owned by King Abdullah who's project it is nor will it be inherited by his children. Also any money made from it would go to charity. There's actually a long history of rulers of Muslims creating waqf endowments in Makkah.

About the location and the size, the rulers of this country were people who once lived hand to mouth in the desert and that made them extremely practical. Building a huge complex close to the Mosque was the most practical alternative in order to accommodate the increasingly large number of pilgrims who arrive every year.

And although the Hajj does stimulate the economy of the Hijaz region, just like it has for thousands of years, I doubt the government makes any money off the hajj. A lot of things are subsidized here, water and flour are two examples and these subsidized goods are consumed by the pilgrims, which costs the government. There are also no taxes on income so money earned by businesses doesn't directly affect the government accounts either.

I'll take pictures of the Abraj and put them up next time I go to makkah. :-)

[smussuw]

This is Makkah, for anyone wondering !!

http://www.asarimurni.com/imagehaj/makkah_satalite.jpg

http://www.ece.ubc.ca/~tkhattab/Images/makkah-space.jpg

[photoLith]

Man that is dense, sucks that they dont allow non muslims there, otherwise I would totally go! Maybe Ill pretend to be, I wonder if they would know? I could just study the religion and then say I was just to go, hehe, but then I would have bad karma or something.

[cactus22minus1]

Thanks for that info Yasir- it does change the perspective a bit if that is indeed true about the proceeds. :) However, given the design of the structure, there is a lot about this that doesn't look very practical! I'm sure there is a huge demand for hotel space, but I still don't get why it has to be such an overpowering structure right next door, competing for attention. IMO it takes away from the significance of the site. :shrug:

I've an open mind, though. I would like more info if you have any more.. and I would LOVE to see more photos. Even if just the city itself. I'm sure a lot of others would be curious as well since most of us are not allowed in the city.. :tup:

[kenratboy]

I would like more info if you have any more.. and I would LOVE to see more photos. Even if just the city itself. I'm sure a lot of others would be curious as well since most of us are not allowed in the city.. :tup:

Same here!

[MapleLeaf]

This thing looks so crazy. :banana: I mean, this building alone is like :worship: but to put such a huge thing right into this town is even :koko:
.

[photoLith]

I hope there are some more photos coming soon for this tower, i want to see how much of an abomination it is.

[TallMark]

Ok, look what I found. I could not believe my eyes! They have destroyed the house of Proph. Muhammad and turned it into a 500-seat toilet, while the Marriot is occupying the house of Abu Bakr, the companion of Muhammad!! The Abraj al-Bait towers are being built on the ruins of the house of Hagar the Egyptian, wife of Abraham and the distant ancestor of Muhammad!!!

http://www.savethehijaz.org/

http://al-muslima.blogspot.com/2008/01/save-hijaz.html

It seems there is an intention involved in destruction of every vestige of early Islam and its Prophet!!! Read the stuff in these pages and you will be dumbfounded as I did! And NO protests from the Muslims who get angry when some crazy draws an insulting cartoon of their Prophet. So it is okay to destroy his house and turn it into toilets (look at those arial photos of Mecca----it is that huge white roofed building next to the grand Mosque..

If the purpose was truly to accommodate the pilgrims, all these buildings--Marriot and all--could have been easily built a mile away and spare the holy of holies of Islam. Only a fool would not see the sinister intentions behind this.

By the way, do pay attention to the fact that the construction company that is doing all this, is none other than: Ben Laden Co.!!!!

[TallMark]

I am speechless, to say the least. Read the following, and you will not be cheering for these buildings in Mecca any more. How can the followers of any religion stay aside and let this happen to their historical and revered sites? And it seems all of it is being done by the tiny Wahhabi sect that runs Saudi Arabia and the al-Qaeda!!! Wow!


http://news.independent.co.uk/world/middle_east/article304029.ece

http://underprogress.blogs.com/weblog/2006/02/the_latest_edit.html

http://madsufi.com/?p=39

http://jafariyanews.com

http://www.islamicamagazine.com/content/view/161/59/

http://www.muslimprofessionals.org.uk/forums/showpost.php?p=4829&postcount=1

http://www.mofa.gov.sa/Detail.asp?InSectionID=571&InNewsItemID=38752

[kenratboy]

I am speechless, to say the least. Read the following, and you will not be cheering for these buildings in Mecca any more. How can the followers of any religion stay aside and let this happen to their historical and revered sites? And it seems all of it is being done by the tiny Wahhabi sect that runs Saudi Arabia and the al-Qaeda!!! Wow!


http://news.independent.co.uk/world/middle_east/article304029.ece

http://underprogress.blogs.com/weblog/2006/02/the_latest_edit.html

http://madsufi.com/?p=39

http://jafariyanews.com

http://www.islamicamagazine.com/content/view/161/59/

http://www.muslimprofessionals.org.uk/forums/showpost.php?p=4829&postcount=1

http://www.mofa.gov.sa/Detail.asp?InSectionID=571&InNewsItemID=38752

Very interesting - really puts this building into prespective.

[MapleLeaf]

It seems there is an intention involved in destruction of every vestige of early Islam and its Prophet!!! Read the stuff in these pages and you will be dumbfounded as I did! And NO protests from the Muslims who get angry when some crazy draws an insulting cartoon of their Prophet. So it is okay to destroy his house and turn it into toilets (look at those arial photos of Mecca----it is that huge white roofed building next to the grand Mosque..

:worship:

[malec]

There was a massive discussion about this on SSC but turned into trolling eventually as usual. I agree it's terrible what they're doing.
On SSC some kept on saying that Mecca needs as many of these projects as they can get to accomodate the pilgrims. Sure they need the space but they could easily build a metro (which it currently doesn't have) and build this stuff a mile away.

By the way, the bin laden construction company is not al qaeda, Osama is part of the family but they dissowned him once he started being involved in terrorism. In fact that same company was originally supposed to build the burj dubai but they decided against it.

[arkhagello]

I think it's not as bad as it seems after explanation by Yasir besides, pilgrims don't go to Makkah for the view.

[Tom In Chicago]

I'm locking this thread until something factual regarding this building comes to light. . . if you have any information you'd like posted please PM me. . . until then this thread has become rife with off topic posts. . .

[malec]

Some updates from July 14th
Posted by Saudi Guy on SSC
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3256/2558354402_57b4085020_o.jpg


Please no bullshit this time.

[zagreb]

AMAZING - I love the way tradition, and heritage blend in with the way they are progressing, simply amazing.

[Lecom]

Malec, did you take that yourself?

[Alliance]

AMAZING - I love the way tradition, and heritage blend in with the way they are progressing, simply amazing.

Too bad neither tradation nor heritage are evident in this building.

[malec]

Malec, did you take that yourself?

You think I could get in there?:D
It's from flickr somewhere. Somebody posted it on SSC

[Tom In Chicago]

^You need to credit the flickr user for the photo. . .

[photoLith]

Allah, that tower is horrible! It totally destroys the feel of one of the worlds most historic places! It is pretty massive and in another location it may look great but whatever.

[malec]

^You need to credit the flickr user for the photo. . .

Whoops sorry, was actually taken by Saudi Guy on SSC

[wsxyz]

Allah, that tower is horrible! It totally destroys the feel of one of the worlds most historic places! It is pretty massive and in another location it may look great but whatever.

Well at least if they put that huge clock on top then everyone in the mosque will know what time it is.

[JDRCRASH]

Whoops sorry, was actually taken by Saudi Guy on SSC

What you should do is put right under the photo: From Flickr by Saudi Guy.

[jaga185]

Looks awesome. I love that it reminds you that it is in the middle of a large city. One day I will be able to visit Mecca, when it is time.

[View2saintmartin]

^Mecca is not really a 'large city'. The 2008 estimate of Mecca and environs is only 1.7 million, and that is quite dubious/generous given the impossibility of separating pilgrims from actual residents (pilgrims come year round now). The 'old city', where this project is being built, is quite small (300k) and hemmed in by mountains. It is quite incongruous to the scale and sacred nature of what Mecca once was.