[JDRCRASH]

Looks more like a fortress than a city.....:yuck:

[shakman]

Yes, only Muslims are allowed into Mecca, but its the King's decision not a religious one.

BTW, that plan is awesome. I like it, it would allow pilgrims easier access to the mosque. Unfortunately, it does look a little awkward, wish they would make the buildings look a little less generic.


As a Muslim, I say who cares what the "king" says. It is what God says that matters.

Yes non-Muslims are allowed in Mecca and Medina.

[jaga185]

Really?! I didn't know that non-muslims were allowed, I've always heard different that's exciting to know.

[Yume-sama]

Everything I can find says the opposite.

WARNING: Non-Muslims are strictly prohibited from entering the holy city of Mecca. The penalty is deportation from the country. Documentation will be checked upon entry and anyone not showing proof of being Muslim will be denied entry. As a solitary exception, the Mecca bus terminal (outside city limits) is open to all.
http://wikitravel.org/en/Mecca

[lukeit]

so it's orrible.. but can contains many people.

[shakman]

Everything I can find says the opposite.

WARNING: Non-Muslims are strictly prohibited from entering the holy city of Mecca. The penalty is deportation from the country. Documentation will be checked upon entry and anyone not showing proof of being Muslim will be denied entry. As a solitary exception, the Mecca bus terminal (outside city limits) is open to all.
http://wikitravel.org/en/Mecca

Like I said previously, who cares what the "king" says upon entry into Mecca.

[simms3_redux]

All you have to do is tell them youre a muslim. They cant prove you arent one. Its really easy to get into Mecca. Just buy some of the traditional muslim garb and you will be golden. Just dont say anything about other religions and nobody will ask any questions.

Isnt that lovely, the peaceful religion of Islam only wants other peaceful Muslims in their cities, and following Islamic law. Let's be honest with ourselves, this proposal, sucks, is ugly, looks like a commune, is in a Muslim city where only Muslims are allowed, is funded with oil money which is nothing more than money for Islamic expansion and power, and should not be praised or glorified.

[mthq]

I don't understand -- how would officials in Mecca know if you're Muslim or not? For starters, I think I can get away with being Muslim based on physical appearance. What else do I need?

btw welcome back Shakman. We haven't seen you in ages.

[M.K.]

That Domino city makes me loving it this another planet civilization... Make me feel Alliens really arrived. :tup:

[PhxPavilion]

Isnt that lovely, the peaceful religion of Islam only wants other peaceful Muslims in their cities, and following Islamic law. Let's be honest with ourselves, this proposal, sucks, is ugly, looks like a commune, is in a Muslim city where only Muslims are allowed, is funded with oil money which is nothing more than money for Islamic expansion and power, and should not be praised or glorified.

Agreed.

[leftopolis]

I don't understand -- how would officials in Mecca know if you're Muslim or not? For starters, I think I can get away with being Muslim based on physical appearance. What else do I need?


...The secret handshake! :cool: In all seriousness, if somebody is trying to pass as Muslim in Mecca, they should be aware of two things:

1) You are breaking the law--one which was not decreed by the religion, but by the ruler of that country. Saudi Arabia is not the best place in the world for a foreigner to "get busted" for breaking the law.

2) Any non-Muslim attempting this, would be incredibly naive to not spend weeks or even months--researching the nuances and details of the religion...in order to be passable.

Personally, I'll settle for relying on our Muslim friends for pictures(as long as they got the permit!) and updates of this project--hint, hint--it's been a while! Maligned by many others on this thread, I'm in the camp that finds this an intriguing, impressive structure.

[mainstreet]

It's well documented that non-Muslims aren't allowed inside Mecca.

Non-Muslims are not permitted to enter Mecca by Saudi law.[3] [44]

Many religious scholars say this "discrimination" exists because Mecca was once a city where Muslims - including the prophet Mohammed - were persecuted and driven out. When Mohammed and his followers reclaimed the city, it was declared a sanctuary ... a place where every Muslim should feel safe. [citation needed]

Those who use fake certificates of Muslim identity (to enter) may be arrested and prosecuted by Saudi authorities[45]

The Saudi government uses the following verse as a Qur’an confirmation for this law, however there are other interpretations to this verse (in particular, People of the Book would usually not be regarded as pagans)[46]):

"O ye who believe! Truly the Pagans are unpure; so let them not, after this year of theirs, approach the Sacred Mosque. And if ye fear poverty, soon will God enrich you, if He wills, out of His bounty, for God is All-knowing, All-wise." -- Qur’an, 9:28

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/0/06/Christian_Bypass.jpg

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mecca#Entry_forbidden_for_Non-Muslims

[jaga185]

leftopolis brought up a good point, are there any new pictures of this building?

[TANGELD_SLC]

I want UPDATES! :D
Pretty please.
for this infidel ;)

[1ajs]

It's well documented that non-Muslims aren't allowed inside Mecca.



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mecca#Entry_forbidden_for_Non-Muslims
what in the?


thinking about it its problynot a bad idea concerdering millions of people make the pilgrimage every year it makes it that much esayer to controll the croweds... i have muslim friends that have gone even one that used to volinteer helping controll the crowds back in the 60's-70's befor they got organized on getting people in and out... actualy he was one of the ones the started a system to help get people in and out with ease

anyhow we need an update!!

[TallMark]

Sorry about the random framing but I took these with an iPhoney.

http://yasirhamed.com/ls/abraj_al_bait/IMG_0109.JPG

http://yasirhamed.com/ls/abraj_al_bait/IMG_0117.JPG

http://yasirhamed.com/ls/abraj_al_bait/IMG_0123.JPG

http://yasirhamed.com/ls/abraj_al_bait/IMG_0124.JPG

http://yasirhamed.com/ls/abraj_al_bait/IMG_0125.JPG

http://yasirhamed.com/ls/abraj_al_bait/IMG_0130.JPG

http://yasirhamed.com/ls/abraj_al_bait/IMG_0133.JPG

Yasser, where did your photos go??!! I am dying to see them! Please re-post. They are not visible anymore:(

[TallMark]

It's well documented that non-Muslims aren't allowed inside Mecca.



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mecca#Entry_forbidden_for_Non-Muslims

Yes, but Christians and Jews are not "pagans." Along with the Muslims (and the Sabbians and the Magi), they form a single nation and creed. They are referred to in the Koran, as the "People of the Book." So, forbidding Christians and Jews coming to Mecca is an innuendo ("Bid'a") not an Islamic edict.

[JManc]

what if you convert to islam? quite a few african-americans are muslim converts.

[leftopolis]

From a post over at Skyscrapercity, dated 1/04/09, by Saudi guy (http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php?t=192169&page=44)...Thanks, Saudi guy!

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3077/3166317036_06c44c87e9.jpg

http://farm2.static.flickr.com/1026/3165501409_4afbd9a434.jpg

[Patrick]

Erm..there are plans for a HUGE expansion.

http://img26.picoodle.com/img/img26/4/7/13/f_26600861033m_02af37e.jpg

Yeah..it looks like dominoes. And crap.

Wowww.

[AtlantaMustang]

The whole project is very.... interesting........................:shrug:

[1ajs]

Wowww.
x2

[mainstreet]

Yes, but Christians and Jews are not "pagans." Along with the Muslims (and the Sabbians and the Magi), they form a single nation and creed. They are referred to in the Koran, as the "People of the Book." So, forbidding Christians and Jews coming to Mecca is an innuendo ("Bid'a") not an Islamic edict.

Well yes, I wasn't implying that that's stated in the Koran as Islamic law or anything, just that the Saudi Arabian government has enacted this law for a while, and apparently they use that line as justification. And even so, it says they may not approach the "Sacred Mosque" - obviously I know next to nothing about Islamic law, but wouldn't that mean only the mosque itself and not the entire city?

This whole expansion thing is just crazy. It doesn't help that the designs are atrocious. I mean this thing has a giant clock on the top, for crying out loud.

[TXAlex]

Wowww.

Bet you will be able to see it from space.

[[SP]Neo]

Erm..there are plans for a HUGE expansion.

http://img26.picoodle.com/img/img26/4/7/13/f_26600861033m_02af37e.jpg

Yeah..it looks like dominoes. And crap.

lol this is a joke isn't it? they can't need THAT much room for pilgrims...:yuck:

[JDRCRASH]

^ Well if I remember correctly, millions travel to Mecca every year for the pilgrimage season, so who knows? But really now, can't they show some originality with that expansion?

[Boquillas]

Can nobody tell that rendering isn't even possible? Is anyone even paying attention? The rendering is so obviously a joke it boggles the mind. The portion of the Abraj Al-Bait that has already been constructed would be in the center-right, right next to the Kabaa, if the render were real.

[MolsonExport]

http://img26.picoodle.com/img/img26/4/7/13/f_26600861033m_02af37e.jpg

Reminds me a bit of the Empire State Plaza in Albany, New York (the part with the anonymous repetitive buildings).

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/f/ff/EmpirePlaza17.jpg/800px-EmpirePlaza17.jpg
Source: Wikipedia

[TallMark]

Well yes, I wasn't implying that that's stated in the Koran as Islamic law or anything, just that the Saudi Arabian government has enacted this law for a while, and apparently they use that line as justification. And even so, it says they may not approach the "Sacred Mosque" - obviously I know next to nothing about Islamic law, but wouldn't that mean only the mosque itself and not the entire city?

This whole expansion thing is just crazy. It doesn't help that the designs are atrocious. I mean this thing has a giant clock on the top, for crying out loud.

The clock part is very okay. It may not look good to the non-Muslims, but it does--in fact, should--look good to the Muslims. Islam is a very strict religion when it comes to timeliness and descipline. The daily, five-time prayers, timing for fasting, etc. etc., are all time-sensitive, and therefore, timed PRECISELY. They must be so observed with the time in mind.

There were clock towers (operated by water) in nearly all Muslim cities in the early medieval times, including Baghdad (which like all other large cities, it had many). Some archtectural drawings of these clock towers survive to the present day. Of all the monsterocity one sees in this willful destruction of the Islamic hallowed ground and relics, only that clock tower has any merit whatsoever!

[gttx]

There were clock towers (operated by water) in nearly all Muslim cities in the early medieval times, including Baghdad (which like all other large cities, it had many). Some archtectural drawings of these clock towers survive to the present day. Of all the monsterocity one sees in this willful destruction of the Islamic hallowed ground and relics, only that clock tower has any merit whatsoever!

Just as their were clock towers in or around nearly every Christian church of the same period - a reality that we seem to have quickly forgotten. Monastic or cloistered life within the Catholic Church is still very regimented. For most of us, however, large public clocks have been replaced by the convenience of watches or cell phones.

Time, it seems, is not such a novelty as it once was. I still quite enjoy seeing clocks on buildings, even if (for me anyway) it is purely for aesthetic enjoyment. Philadelphia's city hall or the Metlife building in New York are great examples in the US - and neither are half as useful as the one at Mecca will be!

[M.K.]

Can nobody tell that rendering isn't even possible? Is anyone even paying attention? The rendering is so obviously a joke it boggles the mind. The portion of the Abraj Al-Bait that has already been constructed would be in the center-right, right next to the Kabaa, if the render were real.

I think the same, surely a earlier proposal, much more faraonic, that was not considered further, only 10% of that is being built closer to the religious place. I see that this wonderful rendering pop-up just now, making some confusion to think it would even be considered to be built, but we all know only the huge construction is totally different today. I do not believe either they would desconstruct what is already done in this dense part to have such of impression, much more money waste, which they probably do not have to redo all.

This rendering remember me visions of a Mr. H* in Germany of past time. It could be the same from a visionary person.

The castle will be much smaller. Only the clock higher tower with surrounding ones lower was kept, translated off closer to the religious place.

[uaarkson]

I hate this tower, but I think that mega structure rendering looks worse than it actually would.

[lakegz]

I got this at SSC. Apparently this is the plan that has been approved recently.

http://img230.imageshack.us/img230/2562/p1060955tp6.jpg

Finally bringing Mecca into.......the 1950s.

[jaga185]

I still don't understand why the buildings have to all look so bland. But other than that this looks so friggin' cool.

[Aleks]

It does look cool. Too bad they would have to destroy many many ancient structures to build something of that magnitude.

[Tom In Chicago]

Neat. . .

[malec]

Main tower is now over 1000 feet

Photos from my latest Omra trip to Makkah between 21-24, February, 2009...

http://i118.photobucket.com/albums/o116/thamerofarabia/Al-MasjidAl-Haram--OmraTrip--23rd-F.jpg

http://i118.photobucket.com/albums/o116/thamerofarabia/Al-MasjidAl-Haram--OmraTrip--23r-1.jpg

http://i118.photobucket.com/albums/o116/thamerofarabia/Al-MasjidAl-Haram--OmraTrip--22n-4.jpg

http://i118.photobucket.com/albums/o116/thamerofarabia/Al-MasjidAl-Haram--OmraTrip--22n-2.jpg

http://i118.photobucket.com/albums/o116/thamerofarabia/Al-MasjidAl-Haram--OmraTrip--22n-1.jpg

http://i118.photobucket.com/albums/o116/thamerofarabia/Al-MasjidAl-Haram--OmraTrip--22nd-F.jpg

http://i118.photobucket.com/albums/o116/thamerofarabia/Al-MasjidAl-Haram--OmraTrip--22n-3.jpg

[Aleks]

When you look at the design from far away it looks kinda cheap but now that I see it closely, I can tell they really put an effort on the details and whatnot. It's looking better than what I expected.

[TANGELD_SLC]

It's actually quite beautiful. Reminds me of the Jin Mao tower and how it looks bland/cheap from afar but is quite gorgeous once you get up close! :yes:

I also think that the master plan circle LOOKS cool, but is quite shameful since so much history will be lost in it's making :no:

[photoLith]

I got this at SSC. Apparently this is the plan that has been approved recently.

http://img230.imageshack.us/img230/2562/p1060955tp6.jpg

Finally bringing Mecca into.......the 1950s.

Have these people have no sense of historic preservation? Thats an absolutely appalling idea. That would destroy one of the most historic city centers in the world. Jeez man, these people are ridiculous. But whatever, if they want to destroy their own history than let them go ahead and do so. They all think the world is going to end soon anyways so whatever.

[JManc]

i agree. isn't this similar to knocking every thing down in the vatican except for st. peters square/ basilica and replacing them with huge hotels?

i like the these tower u/c but the planners should take into account historic islamic structures in the area.

[Boquillas]

i agree. isn't this similar to knocking every thing down in the vatican except for st. peters square/ basilica and replacing them with huge hotels?
.

That really wouldn't bug me. The Vatican museum is kind of disgraceful, really. Not architecturally, though (although it doesn't blow me away on that front either).

[John Hinds]

I got this at SSC. Apparently this is the plan that has been approved recently.

http://img230.imageshack.us/img230/2562/p1060955tp6.jpg

Finally bringing Mecca into.......the 1950s.

That is appaling, Please Mecca, don't turn your city into a giant Las Vegas style hotel complex

Although that masterplan looks like they are planning to protect the land around the Masjid al-Haram they have already started building hotels right up against it.

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3252/2812219258_b23d7d7896_o.jpg

[shakman]

I would be quite upset if all of the crap got build.

It is the same non-character buildings repeating itself.

[TANGELD_SLC]

So isn't there some sort of historical preservation society that could prevent it all being built? I'm not Muslim but I still think it's insane to destroy so much precious history :(

[Cypherus]

All those buildings closing in such a holy site for Muslims are deplorable. I am not a Muslim but the overall sense of purity of the site is lost when free market forces become the dominant dictator.

[shakman]

As a Muslim, I am enraged when I saw the proposal. I do not mind renovation work on existing structures to keep them functional, but this???
Imagine if this was in the Old City of Jerusalem (holy to three major religions which includes Islam - 2nd holiest). It would not be allowed to happen.

There is a lot of history in Mecca prior to Islam. For example the Kabba'a, the black structure itself, was built by Prophet Abraham (PBUH).

Unfortunately, it seems as if money has come before God in Mecca.

How dare them!!! :hell: :hell: :hell: :hell: :hell: :hell: :hell:

[Tom In Chicago]

As a Muslim, I am enraged when I saw the proposal. I do not mind renovation work on existing structures to keep them functional, but this???

It seems to me that the Al-Masjid al-Ḥarām has gone through considerable renovation since it was originally completed and has had some sort of major expansion at least twice in the last 30 years as well as one siege and subsequent repair job. . . surely as the amount of Muslims in the world continues to grow - given its status as one of the fastest growing religions coupled with the possibility that it's already by many standards the largest single religion in the world - I don’t see a problem with their expansion plans. . . architecturally speaking it leaves a lot to be desired, but in all fairness it reflects the monotheistic unity that Mecca is supposed to represent. . .

. . .

[Starsky]

As a Muslim, I am enraged when I saw the proposal. I do not mind renovation work on existing structures to keep them functional, but this???
Imagine if this was in the Old City of Jerusalem (holy to three major religions which includes Islam - 2nd holiest). It would not be allowed to happen.

There is a lot of history in Mecca prior to Islam. For example the Kabba'a, the black structure itself, was built by Prophet Abraham (PBUH).

Unfortunately, it seems as if money has come before God in Mecca.

How dare them!!! :hell: :hell: :hell: :hell: :hell: :hell: :hell:

You actually believe that Abraham built the Kaaba? There is actual zero factual evidence that Abraham built the Kaaba in Arabia. I know the idea of questioning ultra-sacred, holy, and unchallengeable beliefs, because of the political sensibility of not enraging the more enrageable members of this currently volatile religion, no matter how patently ridiculous, insane and without evidence the beliefs are... is quite pervasive....but all that aside, lets get real..

Its like saying Skidmore, Owings, and Merrell built the Great Pyramids.(or did they!!!!?)

Also one thing to Tom in Chicago, the worlds fastest growing religion is Christianity in terms of sheer number. In terms of fastest growing percentage its Deism(A omniscient being does or did exist, but nothing like the man-made religions). I'm not questioning any person here, but just questioning the more crazy ideas put around.

[Tom In Chicago]

You actual believe that Abraham built the Kaaba? Thats like Jesus built the Pyramids. I know the idea of ultra-sacred, holy, and unchallengeable belief because of political sensibility of not outraging constituents, no matter how patently ridiculous, insane and without evidence it is is quite pervasive....but all that aside, lets get real..

Its like saying Skidmore, Owings, and Merrell built the Great Pyramids.(or did they!!!!?)

Comparing Abraham building the Kaaba (not entirely unfeasable) to Jesus building the pyramids (utterly unfeasable) is more absurd than the point you're ranting about. . .

The original Kaaba itself might not have been all that spectacular of a structure to begin with. . . the current structure (not built by Abraham) is merely a cube shaped building about 40 feet high. . . so even if the claim is that Abraham built it, it wouldn't be that hard to beleive in my book. . .

cite - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kabaa

. . .

[Tom In Chicago]

Also one thing to Tom in Chicago, the worlds fastest growing religion is Christianity in terms of sheer number. In terms of fastest growing percentage its Deism.

I've edited my post to reflect that Islam is /one/ of the fastest growing religions. . .

[Starsky]

Comparing Abraham building the Kaaba (not entirely unfeasable) to Jesus building the pyramids (utterly unfeasable) is more absurd than the point you're ranting about. . .

The original Kaaba itself might not have been all that spectacular of a structure to begin with. . . the current structure (not built by Abraham) is merely a cube shaped building about 40 feet high. . . so even if the claim is that Abraham built it, it wouldn't be that hard to beleive in my book. . .

cite - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kabaa

. . .

Ok, I'll grant you that. It would be more ridiculous to say Jesus built the Pyramids. But the foundation of the thought is the same. They both lack any evidence?

Honestly, how likely do you think it is that Abraham built it? What is more likely is that the indigenous Arabs of towns on the Arabian peninsula heard beliefs from Jewish and Christian traders, adapted them into their own culture, created a political system & then superimposed other religion's figures on it, thus giving rise to many myths and altered stories. This has happened in many other indigenous cultures as well. They have done the same thing

Thats what probably happened in reality. Now beliefs, perceptions & word of mouth are different from real history.

[Tom In Chicago]

Honestly, how likely do you think it is that Abraham built it? What is more likely is that the indigenous Arabs of towns on the Arabian peninsula. . . what probably happened in reality. Now beliefs, perceptions & word of mouth are different from real history.

It's more likely that Abraham built the Kaaba than "angels" as legend has it. . . so to insinuate that there's something more "mythic" to this than any of the other religion's tales seems to me to be the real distortion of the story. . . ;)

. . .

[bbeliko]

Imagine if this was in the Old City of Jerusalem (holy to three major religions which includes Islam - 2nd holiest). It would not be allowed to happen.

:
My first thought as well-

Honestly, this is just cheap, cheap, cheap.
It's like they want to turn their holliest site, into a cheap vegas resort.

[Boquillas]

I think we are confusing what all this means for our values, and not necessarily the values of others. The idea that historical architecture should be preserved, as a "living" museum, etc. is a value. It is not a universally held one at that. And it is one that almost everyone here makes exceptions for, too. Let's face it, historic structures are important because they are rare, especially here in the west, thus providing unique experiences in terms of cultural and historical education. In order to create conditions for the appreciation of historical architecture, much of it must disappear. This is not my philosophy-- I'm not arguing that things should or shouldn't be bulldozed. I'm just talking about the relationship we have to history.

If you combine a cultural tendency to discount the value of historic structures if only for practical reasons with a religious ethic, that, as photolitherland mentioned, discourages even the appearance of a "worshipful" appreciation of things other than the religion's deity, you get this. This is a product of some very different values from ours, and at the same time some very similar ones, too.

[Tom In Chicago]

We've digressed on this topic far away from the original point of this thread. . .

[yarabundi]

I don't agree : erecting a tall building is not just an enginnering wonder. It could be a major step for a city, a society. Very often it changes the skyline forever. It's even more acurate for the most important muslim's shrine.
As shakman said :
Imagine if this was in the Old City of Jerusalem (holy to three major religions which includes Islam - 2nd holiest). It would not be allowed to happen.
Now imagine something similar being built right next from Saint-Peter in the Vatican !! That would be considered as a sacrilege !!

[Ikonomi]

Leaving all other considerations aside...

This thing is jaw-dropping, but not in a good way. The main tower looks horrendously out of proportion. It reminds me of a toy, or a model. A big part of the problem for me is that huge, fat spire. The building is mind-bogglingly out of scale to everything else standing today.

Admittedly, it will be amazing to look at when it's finished, if just for sheer size. More power to them for being able to build something this massive!

[JDRCRASH]

Ugh, this thread has gotten off-topic....

[yarabundi]

Ugh, this thread has gotten off-topic....
Why do you say that ? We're still discussing this complex, aren't we ?

[TallMark]

Ugh, this thread has gotten off-topic....

Please explain what is the "topic" in here if not discussing buildings, what do they replace, what do they do to their surrounding, and how do they blend or clash with the cultural and architectural setting into which they are built? Isn't this what we are discussing here? Every time anyone criticizes this monsterocity and what it is doing to the historic heritage of Islam and world heritage, some of you folks get testy. But, it seems even Tom of Chicago is in agreement with you on this too: do not criticize this big-buck project, lest....... (fire and brimstone). We know this is Tom's web site, but c'mon man.

Either there should not be a thread on Mecca, or if there is, then it should be treated like--say, St. Petersburg, Russia: A historic city damaging its own heritage by going out of control with big building project, not a kid-glove case where any substantive criticism is slated as "rant" and hushed up. What is going on? Has a Saudi gov. sensor agent gotten aboard? :shrug:

[photoLith]

Yes, if you bring up anything on the Islamic sect that destroys historic structures because they think historic structures become idols somehow and then bring away homage to Allah. So they destroy history and replace it with terrible monstrosities. But of course, this comment will be erased even though it directly relates to this project in Mecca because for some reason Tom likes censoring stuff on this thread. Whatever.

[leftopolis]

If anyone has something more mature to add, than simply joining a politically-motivated-religious-belief-infused bashfest...please do so. You know who you are, so do us a favor and don't try to dishonestly cloak your petty/angry/hateful opinions as a legitimate critique.

Upon seeing some of the up-close and detailed pics(posted upthread), it would be challenging for anyone with an open mind...to convincingly still characterize the structure as gaudy. The attention to detail is classy, the materials appear to be of high quality. It is certainly huge and unique to be sure--but then most iconic structures of the world have always been surrounded by controversy during their construction. I'd only like to see an equal effort to house the less well-to-do pilgrims.

This news came via my inbox, today:
High Speed Rail to Makkah, by 2012

Published Thursday, March 5, 2009, by Arab News (Saudi Arabia)

Makkah-Madinah railway project contract signed

By Mohammed Rasooldeen

RIYADH, Saudi Arabia -- The Kingdom has signed an SR6.79 billion
($1.81 billion) agreement with Al-Rajhi Alliance to implement the
first phase of the Haramain Railway project that will link the holy
cities of Makkah and Madinah with Jeddah by rail.

Public Investment Fund Chairman and Finance Minister Ibrahim Al-Assaf
and Transport Minister Jabara Al-Seraisry signed the agreement with
Abdullah Sulaiman Al-Rajhi, chairman of the Al-Rajhi Alliance, which
comprises Al-Arrab Contracting Company, China Railway 18 Bureau and
Masco.

The project is being implemented at the initiative of Custodian of the
Two Holy Mosques King Abdullah, who wants to provide better transport
services for Haj and Umrah pilgrims.

The 450-km (280-mile) rail track connecting Makkah, Madinah and Jeddah
will be equipped with high-speed electric trains with a capacity of
320 km (200 miles) per hour. It will reduce the travel time between
Makkah and Madinah to two hours and between Jeddah and Makkah to 30
minutes. The trains will also transport passengers from King Abdul
Aziz International Airport to the holy cities.

The first phase of the project will include preparing the ground,
constructing bridges, culverts and tunnels for laying track.

“We consider it a major project in the history of transport in the
Kingdom,” Al-Seraisry said, adding that the high-speed trains would
not only shorten the duration of the journey but also ensure passenger
comfort. “Today’s signing ceremony is the result of great efforts made
by the officials of the Saudi Railway Organization (SRO) and the
Public Investment Fund, which has played a vital role in screening
bidders for the project,” said Al-Seraisry, who is also chairman of
SRO.

He added that the agreement for subsequent phases would be signed
during the course of the implementation of the first phase. His
ministry is studying a report submitted by a team that visited the
United States, Japan and South Korea recently to choose the best
trains to suit the Kingdom’s requirements.

“We will introduce the latest engines in this project that will
eventually link with the Landbridge project,” the minister said,
referring to a railway expansion plan linking the Kingdom’s east and
west.

Abdul Aziz Al-Hoqail, president of SRO, said the project would be
completed by the middle of 2012 and pilot operations on the track
would be conducted for a period of six months until its official
launch in November the same year.

“Bullet trains between the two holy cities are the safest mode of
conveyance for pilgrims and other passengers. The trains will be fully
electric and equipped with the latest signaling and communications
systems,” he added.

The second phase will include, track laying, electrification, power
supply, installing communication and signaling systems and deploying
rolling stock.

Abdullah Al-Rajhi said the Al-Rajhi Investment Group owns 63.75
percent of the alliance while the Chinese company has funded 21.25
percent of the total investment.

Alstom, the French maker of TGV trains, will bid for the locomotives
tender. A tender for five train stations will take place in the third
or fourth quarter of 2009, Al-Rajhi added.

“We are very enthusiastic about the project that is going to serve
millions of pilgrims,” Samer M.S. Arafa, executive vice president of
Al-Arrab, partner in the Al-Rajhi Alliance, told Arab News following
the signing. He added that his company would complete the project as
scheduled.

[malec]

It's really getting huge now

update with a little comparison to show the progress :)
Taken on February 7, 2009
by 'asyiqul^huur's
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3372/3345859037_f8b6f76bb3.jpg?v=0

Taken on March 6, 2009
by 'asyiqul^huur's
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3603/3346695558_8968c2394d.jpg?v=0


Taken on March 28, 2009
by 'asyiqul^huur's
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3602/3392724995_c203c164a3.jpg?v=0


Taken on March 28, 2009
by 'asyiqul^huur's
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3044/3393535202_2df031a856.jpg?v=0


Taken on March 28, 2009
by 'asyiqul^huur's
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3617/3392720869_5bfd43db2c.jpg?v=0

[HowardL]

I don't give two half craps about religion, so that part of the debate about this project escapes me. But I do find this thing to be really quite cool. When it's all done, I think it might look quite good.

[bbeliko]

This will get deleted but anyway, it's not just that they are building this on a sacred site, they couldn't have chosen a cheaper design, this belongs to vegas, not to a sacred place.


And i don't know why we care about this project, mos of us can't see it live.

[BrownTown]

This will get deleted but anyway, it's not just that they are building this on a sacred site, they couldn't have chosen a cheaper design, this belongs to vegas, not to a sacred place.


And i don't know why we care about this project, mos of us can't see it live.

Well, I don't know who you are or where you are from. But its up to THEM what they consider a good design. And I find it likely they don't give two cents what anywhere here in the USA thinks about it.

That said, this is EASILY the coolest looking tower under construction IMO. I don't understand how people can yalk about how great all the "Western" style towers are where are they are is blue glass rectangular prisms or cylinders. I mean 90% of the buildings I see on this forum all look the same and then someone goes and builds something interesting and unique and everywhere here talks about how cheap it looks? TBH ity looks alot more expensive then the same old blue glass cladding that every other building under construction in the entire world is using.

[bbeliko]

and then someone goes and builds something interesting and unique and everywhere here talks about how cheap it looks? .
You may like it, you may not, but certainly it isn't unique, when i first saw the design, two vegas resorts came to my mind:
http://aawsat.com/english/images/2007/03/14/O31708309.jpg
source (Fisrt Post of the thread)
http://i118.photobucket.com/albums/o116/thamerofarabia/Al-MasjidAl-Haram--OmraTrip--23rd-F.jpg
http://forum.skyscraperpage.com/showthread.php?t=129985&page=17
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/1/19/Bellagio-front.jpg/800px-Bellagio-front.jpg
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/5/56/Venetian_Las_Vegas%2C_NV.jpg/800px-Venetian_Las_Vegas%2C_NV.jpg
en.wikipedia.com
I certainly see some resemblance
I hope you get to see my post

[Boquillas]

Bbeliko, I mentioned this earlier in the thread, but it bears repeating. This building needs to be read a little more carefully. It's a palimpsest of information, and, in a way, it is referencing itself.

Look closely at the two Las Vegas hotels you posted. What style of architecture are they imitating? Yup, Venetian. And what style of architecture were Venetians imitating? Moorish & Byzantine. Arabs who settled in Spain via north Africa, and Turks.

Layered.

[JDRCRASH]

So there won't be any skybridges?

[Indescribable]

Interesting point about the architecture.

[QuarterMileSidewalk]

I really think that the designers of this structure have done a fine job preserving the integrity of traditional Islamic architecture, much more so than they've done over in Dubai.

I've long felt that traditonal Islamic forms are more beautiful than modern and traditional western ones anyway, because of the intricate, mathematical details and the higher-purposed symbolism.

I especially like how even despite its immense size, the building seems to defer to the Masjid-al-Haram in grandeur and importance.

[bbeliko]

Look closely at the two Las Vegas hotels you posted. What style of architecture are they imitating? Yup, Venetian. And what style of architecture were Venetians imitating? Moorish & Byzantine. Arabs who settled in Spain via north Africa, and Turks.

Layered.
Now you have a point:tup:

[excel]

Beast.

[RLS_rls]

It's not the design I dislike, it's the green glass. Makes it look cheap. I remember reading in Maclean's that green glass contains more impurities, hence it's lower price. Besides, clearer glass would give it less of a False Creek look.

[Palm-Sky]

http://img87.imageshack.us/img87/6375/abrajalbaittowers.jpg

Details of the red clouded area

http://img87.imageshack.us/img87/7914/88537042.jpg

http://img87.imageshack.us/img87/2884/84984845.jpg

http://img87.imageshack.us/img87/4462/20580920.jpg

http://img87.imageshack.us/img87/3181/96104218.jpg

[Palm-Sky]

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3464/3405623882_9ff41e519e_b.jpg

This building is come from

http://www.chapmansltplus.com/chapman_gf_clock.jpg

[harryc]

http://img87.imageshack.us/img87/6375/abrajalbaittowers.jpg

Details of the red clouded area



http://img87.imageshack.us/img87/2884/84984845.jpg



Thank you for the photos - the scale is deceptive, I hope we will see shots from within the tents one day.

[Pizzuti]

I would argue that the towers with their current design - tacky as they may appear to Westerners - are more culturally and architecturally relevant to the setting than any high-rise you'd find in any other major city.

I'd have to hear from local people about what they think of the design, because it's not for a bunch of Americans or Europeans to decide if this is appropriate for Mecca. I'd like thier input before drawing conclusions. I'd also like to hear their input on having a commercial site so close to a sacred mosque.

Personally, I don't think the buildings look bad. Taken as a bunch they're a bit monolithic given that there isn't much else that approaches the height. But I think they do a good job of blending modern Western architectural styles that lend easily to skyscrapers with the ornate Middle Eastern styles and mosques. The only thing I'd dispute is the clock, which makes me think of London more than anything else, but I'm sure it will look better when complete.

We have to try not to antiquefy Middle Eastern culture. We get used to associating domed tops with medieval times and poor people because of images we constantly see coming in from the Middle East. Muslim culture - which constitutes about a fifth of the world - is trying hard to achieve something grandiose enough to be proud of, to re-gain the status it had in the eleventh century, and have developed a unique form of modern architecture. Many of the towers built in Dubai utilize Western developers - something the local culture is willing to tolerate in a city as cosmopolitan as Dubai - but Mecca is not that kind of city, so they went with an Islamic corporation owned by the bin Laden family.

I do have to say the rendering is really low-quality, which has prejudiced us against the buildings. There's less need for good PR in a political setting where the people don't have much say in government or planning. But the real deal is looking much better than any of the renderings indicated.

[Jobohimself]

Nice to see my original post criticising the tacky, grandiose design was deleted. Let's find out if it will happen again?

[Tom In Chicago]

^What an insightful observation. . . we are all better human beings for having read your post. . .

. . .

[Jobohimself]

Simply stating my stance on this building. Good concept, but unfortunately poorly executed.

[Starsky]

Honestly, the building would look alot better without that giant spire topped w/ a golden crescent. It makes it look like it could be the HQ of some evil empire or something(well pretty much Saudi Arabia is a pretty evil empire anyways). Unfortunately they are so obsessed with religion over their they allow it to affect their commercial architecture. If they would make a few minor adjustments it would be alot better

[malec]

Updates

12.4.2009 by asyiqul^huur's
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3394/3451365295_6bd276ff0f_o.jpg
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3636/3451365293_446f6eed3d_o.jpg

[Pizzuti]

I agree that the spire with the crescent is the least appealing thing about this building, but I don't think it's going to be that bad either. Everything about this building at every stage has looked much better than it does the rendering, which was cheaply done and unimpressive. I would expect the crescent to follow. It will probably be a brilliant gold color and perhaps (hopefully) it will be scaled down a bit. Either way it will look very small from the ground since it's so high up.

[munda]

:previous:
its not cheap
the material is the same material that is used to build skyscraper in cities like NYC, Chicago, London, Dubai, and Hong Kong which is metal, steal, reinforced concrete, and glass.
the color and the facade is similar to the holy site in front of this building.
they are using traditional colors: the sandstone, the green, and the blue they are all traditional colors that one will find if they visit Islamic site.

it is a very nice building, but at a very bad location

[munda]

Honestly, the building would look alot better without that giant spire topped w/ a golden crescent. It makes it look like it could be the HQ of some evil empire or something(well pretty much Saudi Arabia is a pretty evil empire anyways). Unfortunately they are so obsessed with religion over their they allow it to affect their commercial architecture. If they would make a few minor adjustments it would be alot better

well then quit buying their oil

ask the city of Vatican if they are obsessed with religion

[The Pimp]

:previous:
its not cheap
the material is the same material that is used to build skyscraper in cities like NYC, Chicago, London, Dubai, and Hong Kong which is metal, steal, reinforced concrete, and glass.
the color and the facade is similar to the holy site in front of this building.
they are using traditional colors: the sandstone, the green, and the blue they are all traditional colors that one will find if they visit Islamic site.

it is a very nice building, but at a very bad location

DUDE! He's talking about the rendering not the building materials. Quit being so freaking sensitive.

[malec]

^ Hmm, I can't see his post being sensitive at all. Yours on the other hand... :)

[PhxPavilion]

well then quit buying their oil

I would love to, but it's not a viable option at this point in time.

[Pizzuti]

Unfortunately they are so obsessed with religion over their they allow it to affect their commercial architecture.

Of course they're "obsessed" with religion in Mecca, this is, literally, the centerfuge and capital of the second largest religion in the world. If it weren't "obsessed with religion," Mecca would be a near-forgotten dusty town in the desert because there's no other reason to develop the area except to support the the hajj. Mecca is not on any major rivers and it's not on the coast so shipping does not pass through it. They do not drill for oil there and its a long way from meaningful agriculture. There's no reason for a thriving city of 1.7 million people to be here except for the place's religious significance.

How could the tallest tower in such a city not be dominated by an Islamic cresent? Doing otherwise would not be politically tolerable as the building is a private enterprise but encroaches very near to Islam's holiest location.

The Vatican City is all about Roman Catholocism, India builds temples that loom over everything else in the city. And while we may disagree with a devout Muslim's beleif that Islam is the single most important subject humanity witnesses, the rest of us can easily observe that religion is at least a major component of the human condition. Certainly at least 1% of cities in the world can be built on a religious theme, as religion is far more than 1% average person's life.

(Incidentally, the nation's largest city of Riyadh is not dominated by a religious symbol; the tallest structure is a TV tower and the largest structure is a stadium.)

Many cities in the world are dominated by a single theme; Las Vegas is about gambling and tourism - it's skyline is dominated by casinos. Hong Kong is a business hub of Asia and is skyline is full of corporate office towers. Mecca is all about religion and is full of religious iconography. Nothing insidious or surprising about that.

[Indescribable]

I just don't understand this one.

[StatenIslander237]

Pizzuti, thank you for that arguement. I think you made a good point.

Yes, its not most people's favorite style or massing for a major skyscraper complex. I'm certainly not getting on a plane to see it anytime soon, if ever. To bring back the Vegas example, though, the copycat architecture of the heavily-themed resorts there is really by no means high architecture and design, but for the purpose and intention they were built, they've got us convinced. I love Vegas because it's kitschy, as well as fantastic. The Muslim worshippers who make the pilgrimage to Mecca will appreciate this 75-story homage to their religion, and that's probably pretty sick to them. I don't see a problem.

If you don't like them, don't convert to Islam. Everyone's happy.

[Texan101]

It's not that bad... Just reminds me soo much of something you would see in Vegas. Thats what kills it for me.

[malec]

May 2nd by 'asyiqul^huur's

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3335/3492049554_fefb454e6d_o.jpg

[Tom In Chicago]

Any further off topic discussion or arguments about what is or what is not off topic will result in suspension. . . those of you who cannot adhere to these rules will be permanently banned. . .

[leftopolis]

Taken on May 10th, 2009...by 'asyiqul^huur's
Posted @ SSC (http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php?t=192169&page=46)


http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3590/3522856797_58fb499a68_o.jpg

[bbeliko]

it's starting to grow on me

[JManc]

i really do like the actual buildings but having them staring down on the grand mosque just doesn't fit well. there is a huge disconnect. this would be like having the empire state building parked right in front of st. peter's square.

though i'm sure logistics and accommodations trumped all other issues.

[leftopolis]

i really do like the actual buildings but having them staring down on the grand mosque just doesn't fit well. there is a huge disconnect. this would be like having the empire state building parked right in front of st. peter's square.

though i'm sure logistics and accommodations trumped all other issues.

Not quite an apt comparison...since the structure is there to primarily accomodate pilgrims. There are plenty of hotels in the Vatican area. A quick google, and you come up with: Vatican Hotels (http://www.hotelsromecenter.com/vaticanhotelsrome.htm), including this one:
http://www.hotelalessandrino.com/images/hotel-rome-vatican.jpg