[citywatch]

Today, Old Town Pasadena is thriving and South Lake Avenue is still in the continued process of revamping its image and streets. This is something we can learn from if we apply it to DTLA.
And it was Upward's recent thread on DT San Diego (http://forum.skyscraperpage.com/showthread.php?t=136277) that really opened my eyes & got me to thinking about the differences between the parts of DTLA that have been changed & improved through mostly newer devlpt, & then the areas like Broadway, Spring St & the OBD in general.

I know pics by themselves can make things seem better than they really are. But there's no question it would be a lot tougher to duplicate in DTLA a group of locations like the ones in DTSD that take full advantage of classic, old time bldgs:


http://webfiles.uci.edu/cfagan/ssp/sd/IMG_7280.jpg
Upward

http://webfiles.uci.edu/cfagan/ssp/sd/IMG_7289.jpg
Upward

http://webfiles.uci.edu/cfagan/ssp/sd/IMG_7316.jpg
Upward

[ThreeHundred]

Neither is choosing that green neon tubes should be incorporated on the side of AON, or any other visionary lighting schemes for DTLA for that matter.

I agree, we should get back on topic.

Prada and Gucci suck btw.

[Easy]

^ Don't even worry about it. DTLA is not trying to duplicate San Diego, nor should it be. The Gaslamp is cool for what it is, but I doubt that we have anything similar to that in DTLA anytime soon. We will likely never have a concentrated restaurant area like the Gaslamp or Ybor City, but DTLA is going to blow away those types of areas in terms of overall activities, variety of neighborhoods, and total population.

[k3d]

It's all part of the skyscrapercityfication of this board that seems to be taking place. But in his defense the grove is so universally despised and so often ridiculed around here that it's easy to see where he thought that you were joking.

Yes, I don't even read over there anymore. Believe it or not, I have never heard that about The Grove, I'm not in love with it but it but I like it enough to go there fairly often. I really like both Ulysses the greek restaurant and The Banana Leaf at Farmer's Market. We go there because there is not a place like it downtown or we would just stay here. I am looking forward to LA Live but there may be elements about that venue that I may not like as much as a place like The Grove. Have anyone here ever ate at the table at Banana Leaf where everone sits together under the bright yellow flourescent lights? How about the patio at Ulysses?

[ThreeHundred]

Yes, I don't even read over there anymore. Believe it or not, I have never heard that about The Grove, I'm not in love with it but it but I like it enough to go there fairly often. I really like both Ulysses the greek restaurant and The Banana Leaf at Farmer's Market. We go there because there is not a place like it downtown or we would just stay here. I am looking forward to LA Live but there may be elements about that venue that I may not like as much as a place like The Grove. Have anyone here ever ate at the table at Banana Leaf where everone sits together under the bright yellow flourescent lights? How about the patio at Ulysses?

I think that why so many people dislike The Grove is that it's nothing more that a suburban mall that thinks it's urban. There are a million of those all over SoCal. While I personally don't hate The Grove, I wouldn't want to see something like that downtown. Although, outdoor cafe's in downtown are rare and should be considered.

[citywatch]

But in his defense the grove is so universally despised and so often ridiculed around here that it's easy to see where he thought that you were joking.I'm not sure if that means such ppl therefore will be more likely to also despise a setting like Broadway or more likely to give it slack, if not even love it. I know the main group of customers or visitors for one isn't too similar to the customers or visitors of the other.

The grove is supposed to be a big money maker, & that's been said about Broadway too. However, I'm now hearing that Broadway may be losing some of its popularity & customers' dollars.

As for signs or billboards, I can't be too choosy about what LA Live or Hanover will be installing when several blocks to the east there's a far bigger problem, involving way more signs. I'm referring to the blight of things like "paul's electronic discount" compared with "martinez jewelry mart," which actually enhances the Palace theater. I'll take anything, LED or not, over signs like "paul's", which are all too common throughout the hood.


http://www.angelenic.com/images/palace_jimw.jpg
Jim Winstead / Ralossi's www.angelenic.com

http://www.angelenic.com/images/dtla0825%20018small.jpg
Ralossi's www.angelenic.com

[citywatch]

RAlossi and I went by Market Lofts this weekend to tour the models. The 50% sold number is old. I asked the sales person on Saturday, and I can't remember the exact figure, but I think they're in the 60% - 65% sold range now.Slowly (at least compared with the time when condo projs were sold out almost overnight) but steadily they're filling up the space. It's good if the rate of sales now is moving fast enough that their proj's web site starts to understate the number of remaining units.


Meanwhile, there's a post that mentions parkfifth (http://forum.skyscraperpage.com/showpost.php?p=3033706&postcount=397) that should be kept in mind:

same scenario at the moment at park fifth...about 344 reservations...however... these are only $10K holds, and no guarantee they'll ever break ground...if the project is scrapped, those reservations will be refunded...


As for the medallion proj, just seeing the site it's to be built on, finally free from all the junk of a parking lot, & now showing lots of potential, is a sight that's long overdue:

http://viewfromaloft.typepad.com/photos/uncategorized/2007/08/27/_igp0213.jpg
viewfromaloft.com

[k3d]

I think that why so many people dislike The Grove is that it's nothing more that a suburban mall that thinks it's urban. There are a million of those all over SoCal. While I personally don't hate The Grove, I wouldn't want to see something like that downtown. Although, outdoor cafe's in downtown are rare and should be considered.

Ok, an urban mall sounds good. That is what I was thinking anyway, that it would be more authentic to restore all those buildings and theaters and have restaurants, patios, lighting and music. You don't have to close the street I guess, it's just that having dinner on the patio might be a little noisy.

[Echo Park]

As for the medallion proj, just seeing the site it's to be built on, finally free from all the junk of a parking lot, & now showing lots of potential, is a sight that's long overdue:

http://viewfromaloft.typepad.com/photos/uncategorized/2007/08/27/_igp0213.jpg
viewfromaloft.com

i hadn't really looked at the medallion site from this angle. usually the photos of this site that show up on this forum are looking east toward the industrial district, but looking toward the obd and its renovated buildings really highlights the potential of this hood. which only makes the disappointing design of medallion even more glaring. why did they scale down the original renderings which were at least slightly daring? citywatch has been pushing this philosophy where beggars cant be choosers when it coems to DTLA development but i dont subscribe to this. surely this city can have higher expectations. doesn't the city approve of these things? i wouldn't approve of a building more appropriate in canoga park then in downtown LA (the obd of all places). i wouldn't be surprised if this ends up stucco.

[DowntownCharlieBrown]

How can anyone like this? It's like real life version of pop up ads clutting your computer screen. I thought the huge billboards were already offensive in the hanover renderings but I took solace in the possibilty they might be LED giving a dynamic nature to Fig. But they're not even LED ugh :yuck: hanover, in all its stucco and billboard plastered glory belongs in hollywood

Well, then you’re not going to like L.A. Live. It's going to be "Billboard City"

Look, I’m a big proponent of signage regulation and would not want to see anything like this in most of the city, and I would go as far as saying that I want billboards banned from most of the city. If you have ever been to Times Square and felt the energy there, then you know. Yes, its restaurants, and clubs, and theaters, and movie-houses, and great shopping that bring the masses to this intersections, but the brightly lit billboards (LED or not) light up the entire area enticing people to hang-out and enjoy being on a city street! I believe if the billboards were banned in Times Square, less people would go there and shop less, eat less, etc., etc, and that there would be a lot less of the establishments that make TS so wonderful to visit.

[Echo Park]

You don't have to close the street I guess, it's just that having dinner on the patio might be a little noisy.

its not a problem on pine avenue in DT long beach where outdoor dining is popular. plus the sidewalks are wide enough for it. you can see it at the broadway bar which has decent open spaces.

[Echo Park]

Well, then you’re not going to like L.A. Live. It's going to be "Billboard City"

Look, I’m a big proponent of signage regulation and would not want to see anything like this in most of the city, and I would go as far as saying that I want billboards banned from most of the city. If you have ever been to Times Square and felt the energy there, then you know. Yes, its restaurants, and clubs, and theaters, and movie-houses, and great shopping that bring the masses to this intersections, but the brightly lit billboards (LED or not) light up the entire area enticing people to hang-out and enjoy being on a city street! I believe if the billboards were banned in Times Square, less people would go there and shop less, eat less, etc., etc, and that there would be a lot less of the establishments that make TS so wonderful to visit.

It isn't the billboards that necessarily draw people to TS, its the LIGHT. The videos aren't always advertising something in Times Square. Sometimes its used to display news and information. I've already posted about my disgust for some of the overt advertising planned for LA Live, but one thing I do like are the 6 video towers in Nokia Plaza. I think this is more tasteful and innovative way of incorporating light to that project. The video walls however are just poorly designed. There should be glass windows on this wall allowing light and views to flow freely from the energy created on teh street to the observers in the building. This energy however is completey sealed off by this fortress wall of video billboards. There are more tasteful ways to advertise like vertical signage to minimize space, the kind you see in Tokyo for example. the podium displays in hollywood and highland or hanover work too.

[DowntownCharlieBrown]

Originally Posted by DowntownCharlieBrown
Yes, its restaurants, and clubs, and theaters, and movie-houses, and great shopping that bring the masses to this intersections, but the brightly lit billboards (LED or not) light up the entire area enticing people to hang-out and enjoy being on a city street!

It isn't the billboards that necessarily draw people to TS, its the LIGHT.

Good, sounds like we're on the same page. :cheers:

[citywatch]

why did they scale down the original renderings which were at least slightly daring?I believe it came down to economics. The devlpr was quoted as saying the original plans, which were bigger & more ambitious, no longer penciled out. I figured that meant that in order to cover the cost of devlpt & to make a decent profit, he'd have had to charge way more for rent than what most ppl would be willing to pay.


citywatch has been pushing this philosophy where beggars cant be choosers when it coems to DTLA development but i dont subscribe to this.I'm just trying to be realistic. There's no use believing in pie in the sky when all you'll end up with is even more disappointment & impatience.

What I can't figure out is why you give so much leeway to the current raunchy condition of broadway, &, in turn, show so little optimism or patience towards new devlpt in the hood. I'd say if you balanced the two perspectives, you'd come out with a more realistic, or more workable, impression of the hood in the future.

[LosAngelesBeauty]

^ The future of Broadway is a sticky topic because of the "class issue" attached to it. There is little doubt in my mind that the very people who want Broadway to remain in its current form do not actually prefer the dirt and grim. However, talking about normal project developments like Medallion pertains to market rate housing and talking shit about people who make a lot of money is ok in liberal culture. It's hypocrisy, but nothing in the world is fair. Anyone can make little racial remarks about "whites" but the slightest implications of anything negative toward any other minority is call for retribution!

[Echo Park]

I'm just trying to be realistic. There's no use believing in pie in the sky when all you'll end up with is even more disappointment & impatience.

I think you're confusing expectations with standards. When it comes to expectations, we are most likely on the same page. We both agree the way the city runs things that its best to be patient with these projects and realize that downtown's new glory days are still 20, 30 years down the road. We both probably expect budget projects to go up around downtown like medallion, orsini, artisan etc rather than dramatic steel+glass super towers. And we both agree no project is worth getting excited over until we see a hole in the ground and concrete being poured. Standards are a differet story, and there's nothing wrong with demanding our city to start considering better design when its objective is to become a world class city. All the wood/stucco projects I mentioned is contrary to that, but there are great designs in the pipeline as well, like eighth+grand, iHope, ninth+flower, park fifth. Some developers are clueless in urban design (palmer), others get it (south, astani). The city needs to start being a little more proactive and demand a little bit better from some of the more clueless developers. re: Broadway, it only seems like i give it a lot of leeway because you guys give it so much criticism. You say its raunchy but really whats more uglier/depressing, all the deadzone parking lots + warehouses around downtown or the bustling dense thoroughfare of broadway? its the only truly urban corridor in downtown right now, so lets work on other places and allow broadway to evlolve naturally. if it is true that broadway is losing its working class clientele then lets let that change naturally instead of developers being mean spirited and giving kickbacks to corporate chains to move in. this is not just an urban issue to me, its a moral issue. i'd love tos ee broadway restored to its glory but displacing folks is wrong. new urbanism isn't everything folks.

[marc samuel]

Also noticed that the empty Frank L. Robinson warehouse has newly erected scaffolding around it. Anyone know what's planned for that property? (Flower and 12th)

http://i61.photobucket.com/albums/h61/11jp/dtla/IMG_2641.jpg

I actually live next door to this. My place is in your photo actually. I hear them in the morning (at 7:00am) but don't know what's going on. Can anyone tell us what's happening here? Are they making something new? Anything is better than an unused and very tagged empty building.:shrug:

[Echo Park]

you should walk next door and ask :D

[fridayinla]

^Agreed. Get the scoop for us!

[LongBeachUrbanist]

In defense of The Grove (an audible *gasp* rises from the crowd)...

Yes, The Grove is an artificial environment that is isolated from the real city. But it's plain to see that certain things about the Grove work. I think it makes sense for Downtown planners to see which things can be applied to DTLA, rather than simply throwing stones at The Grove.

What works: bright and colorful lighting, clean and well-designed signage, trash cans, benches/seating, greenery, a security patrol, well-lit storefronts.

Where in DTLA has all of this been implemented, at least to some extent? Let's see: Little Tokyo, and the OBD. Also, in front of the new Ralphs. A couple of other places, but that's about it. Is it a coincidence that these are generally considered Downtown's 'success stories'?

Take one more look at citywatch's pic of San Diego's Gaslamp:

http://webfiles.uci.edu/cfagan/ssp/sd/IMG_7280.jpg

Compare to the current state of Broadway:

http://www.angelenic.com/images/palace_jimw.jpg

Where would you rather spend your free time?

It's not a mystery how to make a place that people want to go to. Developers like Caruso (of The Grove) have figured it out. But somehow these simple truths still elude Downtown's planners, developers and conservationists, who seem to believe that cleaning up the gargoyles fifty feet above Broadway is more important than improving the street-level experience.

:brickwall:

[fridayinla]

^Broadway's gentrification (and whether you guys agree or not, it's already taking root) seems to be happening in a natural order to me. The fact building owners (primarily theater building owners) are willing to invest in cleaning their buildings' facades speaks volumes of intent, but the retail change will take time. I believe that's a more complicated issue to tackle. Landlords need to maintain their cash flow, they're not going to shoot themselves in the foot.

[reno]

Re: Changes along Broadway ... it looks like some early changes will come just off Broadway. The new Tower Theater owner (Deljiani, right?) has kicked out all the shops on the south side of 8th Street on Tower Theater property, except for the sandwich shop right on the corner. The folks at the Chapman say he's trying to get more "high-end" shops in there, potentially a newsstand. Right now, there are newly painted brown shutters over where there once were a series of stores. Sorry, didn't have camera to take a photo.

[fridayinla]

Re: Changes along Broadway ... it looks like some early changes will come just off Broadway. The new Tower Theater owner (Deljiani, right?) has kicked out all the shops on the south side of 8th Street on Tower Theater property, except for the sandwich shop right on the corner. The folks at the Chapman say he's trying to get more "high-end" shops in there, potentially a newsstand. Right now, there are newly painted brown shutters over where there once were a series of stores. Sorry, didn't have camera to take a photo.

This photo was taken on Saturday Aug 25th:

http://farm2.static.flickr.com/1297/1260729492_3474b0a528_b.jpg

[LongBeachUrbanist]

Obviously everybody here has their opinion of what retail they'd like to see on Broadway. For each person, this opinion is driven by some mix of taste and ideology.

But like it or not, the Broadway of the future will be driven, primarily, by the open market.

For my part, I care less about the retail mix than and more about the general atmosphere. If you replace the current visual noise with an attractive storefront, people will want to live in and visit Downtown. Regardless of whether the store is selling video cameras or Franklin Covey day planners.

So unless the residential market Downtown collapses, I predict the profit motive will lead to a cleaner Broadway. It's just a matter of time.

[Easy]

Workers were installing a chain link green fence around the LA Central site this afternoon. I was on the blue line and saw them working on the 12th street side. The new fence is immediately outside the existing wooden fence "parts" that have been up for a couple of weeks.

[JDRCRASH]

Thanks for those earlier opinions guys!:)
I still have lots of ideas where this one came from in this creative brain of mine!

Yes siree, having billboards, both plain and digital, are both creatical to making L.A. Live a success.


Even the Grand Avenue Project includes a few billboards if you look closely at the scale model!

[DTLA]

^^^"Creatical" is that even a word?

I think most of people's problems with bilboards is that current billboards are just slapped on existing buildings. However, with LA Live having been planned with billboards in mind, they should blend in nicely with the building and not like they were put there 70 years after the building was built

[petescafe]

As I was driving down Los Angeles St. I caught a glimpse of the new spire for St Vibiana.

The re-mounting ceremony will be tomorrow.

Any one going?:shrug:

[ThreeHundred]

^^^"Creatical" is that even a word?

I think most of people's problems with bilboards is that current billboards are just slapped on existing buildings. However, with LA Live having been planned with billboards in mind, they should blend in nicely with the building and not like they were put there 70 years after the building was built

Creative + critical = creatical.

:jester:

[citywatch]

We both agree the way the city runs things that its best to be patient with these projects and realize that downtown's new glory days are still 20, 30 years down the road.You're a more cautious estimator of the hood's future than I am. Perhaps that's because I'm more aware of just how bad it got, that the improvements over the past few yrs, & some of the promised ones in the next few yrs, make me believe there will be some "glory" well before 20 or 30 yrs from today.


The city needs to start being a little more proactive and demand a little bit better from some of the more clueless developers. re: Broadway, it only seems like i give it a lot of leeway because you guys give it so much criticism. You say its raunchy but really whats more uglier/depressing, all the deadzone parking lots + warehouses around downtown or the bustling dense thoroughfare of broadway? its the only truly urban corridor in downtown right now, so lets work on other places and allow broadway to evlolve naturally. if it is true that broadway is losing its working class clientele then lets let that change naturally instead of developers being mean spirited and giving kickbacks to corporate chains to move in. By the same token, I feel I have to say that cuz you give the devlprs of new projs, inc the faux Euro ones, so much criticism, that I have to give them more leeway. And, in turn, I then have to say the city needs to be more proactive & demand better from the clueless store owners & property owners on Broadway.

One reason I feel that way more today than before was because of the pics of DTSD posted by Upward:

http://webfiles.uci.edu/cfagan/ssp/sd/IMG_7320.jpg
Upward

I found myself surprised by how impressed I was by what they showed. The crowds at night, the many (many!) bldgs, old & new, floodlit at night, the classic historic bldgs mixed in with the newer ones, the busy sidewalk cafes. And your comment that "gaslamp kicks DTLA's ass by a mile!...just give us about 3, 4 or uh 50 years and we'll be there" certainly made me sit up & take notice even more.

As for the raunchiness of Broadway (& Main St, & Spring St too) & how that compares with the deadzones in other parts of the hood, I think they're ALL bringing down the entire hood. And if the sales volume on Broadway has been dropping for awhile now, as mentioned in that article & based on what LAB has been told by leasing agents, then I really don't know why that corridor has to evolve naturally, as you say, while other parts of DT deserve a proactive treatment.

[citywatch]

As I was driving down Los Angeles St. I caught a glimpse of the new spire for St Vibiana.

The re-mounting ceremony will be tomorrow.
Too bad you don't have a good view of that bldg from your apt window, camera in hand. I've been waiting for Vibiana's tower to finally get its "crown" put back on top for several yrs. It's looked quite stubby without it for some time.

[k3d]

If the city could start with a little more lighting even. Some streets are just plain dark! Why would the city leave the downtown city streets so dark? Even the areas that have some lighting like Hope between 8th and 9th seems dark. The city should pick a style or theme of new sidewalk lighting for downtown and just go all out and light this place up. It would be a relatively low cost way to give DTLA an fresh look!

[citywatch]

Can anyone tell us what's happening here? Are they making something new? Anything is better than an unused and very tagged empty building.:shrug:
Come on, marc (& echo park & fridayinla too)! You posted the same question in the LA forum & someone (I believe it was kerry) gave you an answer!

At least based on the pic, the frank robinson bldg isn't one of the really bad ones in South Pk. In fact, other than some problems it might have with graffiti, it looks OK enough that I'd pick other bldgs to tear down before I'd choose it.

[LAofAnaheim]

And one other thing to notice in the picture above..........street parking! Why is there none on Broadway? Street parking adds to a vibrant street scene, NOT parking garages or anti-gridlock zoning. We need city officials to release anti-gridlock zoning is the biggest mistake of all time. We need to increase hours in which people are allowed to park as well. I don't want to see more parking garages in downtown.

[citywatch]

It's not a mystery how to make a place that people want to go to. Developers like Caruso (of The Grove) have figured it out. But somehow these simple truths still elude Downtown's planners, developers and conservationists, who seem to believe that cleaning up the gargoyles fifty feet above Broadway is more important than improving the street-level experience.I agree with most of what you say. However, I think you're getting ahead of the story when it comes to the meaning of the cleaning of uppermost parts of bldgs on Broadway & other streets, gargoyles included. That's assuming the owners of such bldgs don't intend to stop there, but right now are limited in improving the spaces rented out to stores because of legal & contractual requirements.

IOW, if you were renting an apt from someone, & that person didn't like the type of furnishings you owned, he couldn't use his pass key & enter your apt & throw everything out. Or he couldn't go in & totally repaint everything without your approval. I figure the same situation applies to the owners of bldgs on Broadway & the ppl they lease ground floor areas to.

[Tanster]

Downtown L.A really need to do something with its historic core its all there. And no I dont think its going to take 50 years WTF it does not take that long. It could if no one steps in. A paint job here and there is not going to do it . Im talking about a fucking vision for the historic core.


This can easily be the best downtown ever .!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
http://farm2.static.flickr.com/1219/1231912681_2f85233332_o.jpg
pic from ChrisLA

[fridayinla]

We just had a Vero HOA meeting. Regarding the retail spaces, Coffee Bean has backed out :hell: , but Mitaki Sushi, Subway and Yogurberry have signed leases and should start building out soon. Also, Famima and a "Korean bakery" are considering the location. If Famima moves in, all will be forgiven about the Coffee Bean loss.

[edluva]

am i the only person here who doesn't want dtla to become another gaslamp district? the gaslamp is vibrant and all, but don't you guys think it's a bit manufactured? it's nothing like for instance any given neighborhood of manhattan, where the hotspots are more organically distributed and reflect an ongoing evolution of the city as a whole.

the gaslamp is fun, but what real urban environment has door after door of themed restaurants with outdoor seating areas designated by city-blocks of steel perimeter fencing. it's little different from 3rd st promenade except with restaurants in place of retail, and thru-traffic. both are scripted pedestrian malls. there's something about these modern planning "successes" that make the newly gentrified downtowns really plastic. there's an irony in consciously designating retail centers and calling them "real cities" when they're almost entirely scripted. or for instance, erecting a self-conscious "little italy" gateway over a neighborhood which, like the rest of the city, is constantly evolving. what makes these any different from the caruso developments?

[ChrisLA]

am i the only person here who doesn't want dtla to become another gaslamp district? the gaslamp is vibrant and all, but don't you guys think it's a bit manufactured? it's nothing like for instance any given neighborhood of manhattan, where the hotspots are more organically distributed and reflect an ongoing evolution of the city as a whole.

the gaslamp is fun, but what real urban environment has door after door of themed restaurants with outdoor seating areas designated by city-blocks of steel perimeter fencing. it's little different from 3rd st promenade except with restaurants in place of retail, and thru-traffic. both are scripted pedestrian malls. there's something about these modern planning "successes" that make the newly gentrified downtowns really plastic. there's an irony in consciously designating retail centers and calling them "real cities" when they're almost entirely scripted. or for instance, erecting a self-conscious "little italy" gateway over a neighborhood which, like the rest of the city, is constantly evolving. what makes these any different from the caruso developments?

No you're not the only one. There is a reason why Manhattan is so loved, especially many of the neighborhoods in lower Manhattan. Here are a couple of spots in NYC I took last year that I would like to see something similar in downtown LA historic district, and not so much something like the Gaslamp. Personally I think even Old Town Pasadena has a better mix than the Gaslamp.

http://img168.imageshack.us/img168/3590/nyc158nh6.jpg

http://img207.imageshack.us/img207/1699/nyc177sk9.jpg

[colemonkee]

^ The Old Bank District is slowly migrating in that direction, in tiny increments. Once the Rowan and El Dorado Lofts open, along with their retail, we'll see more of a concentrated, active neighborhood. Medallion will help in that regard as well (btw, that picture by viewfromaloft is amazing). Unfortunately, we don't have sidewalks as active as those pictures yet, save for Art Walk nights.

[LosAngelesSportsFan]

am i the only person here who doesn't want dtla to become another gaslamp district? the gaslamp is vibrant and all, but don't you guys think it's a bit manufactured? it's nothing like for instance any given neighborhood of manhattan, where the hotspots are more organically distributed and reflect an ongoing evolution of the city as a whole.

the gaslamp is fun, but what real urban environment has door after door of themed restaurants with outdoor seating areas designated by city-blocks of steel perimeter fencing. it's little different from 3rd st promenade except with restaurants in place of retail, and thru-traffic. both are scripted pedestrian malls. there's something about these modern planning "successes" that make the newly gentrified downtowns really plastic. there's an irony in consciously designating retail centers and calling them "real cities" when they're almost entirely scripted. or for instance, erecting a self-conscious "little italy" gateway over a neighborhood which, like the rest of the city, is constantly evolving. what makes these any different from the caruso developments?

Amen. Gaslamp is a nice little spot for frat boys and drunk sluts.

[ThreeHundred]

Amen. Gaslamp is a nice little spot for frat boys and drunk sluts.

I compare Gaslamp to a giant Dave & Busters or a T.G.I. Fridays. Gaslamp is nice if not a bit souless.

[k3d]

Amen. Gaslamp is a nice little spot for frat boys and drunk sluts.

Are you people kidding? Are we talking about the same Los Angeles? Your worried about plastic, fake, maufactured? I'll take fake plastic manufactured over a urban ghostown anyday. I hate to think what DTLA would turn out like if we continued to let DTLA "reflect an ongoing evolution of the city as a whole". Oh wait, thats where we started.
Restore the frickin buidlings and theaters but let's get some attraction down there before this place ends up like the ghost town it was a few years ago. You historic lovers have had all the time in the world to take care of downtown LA and look what you have done with it.

And to you LASF, I like the Gaslamp district myself and I am far from a frat boy or drinken slut so _ _!. Are these type of comments really necessary or helpful? We all put out our ideas and if you don't like them it doen't mean EVERYONE doesn't like them so your comments can only be taken as an insult to someone else's idea. Isn't there a moderater here?

[Echo Park]

100% in agreement with edluva. also real turned off by the frat boy nature of gaslamp. my comparison was strictly aesthetic, from a city scape/landscaping point of view (should citywatch challenge me again). this is kinda how i feel about south park which as an entertainment district is massively planned, sterile and whitewashed. but hey video billboards=MEGAKEWL!!!

[Echo Park]

They restored the cupola to st vibiana's. i had never seen this building without it since i only got into downtown LA 8 years ago. i think it looks fantastic.

From latimes.com
http://www.latimes.com/media/photo/2007-08/32194292.jpg

[LosAngelesSportsFan]

Are you people kidding? Are we talking about the same Los Angeles? Your worried about plastic, fake, maufactured? I'll take fake plastic manufactured over a urban ghostown anyday. I hate to think what DTLA would turn out like if we continued to let DTLA "reflect an ongoing evolution of the city as a whole". Oh wait, thats where we started.
Restore the frickin buidlings and theaters but let's get some attraction down there before this place ends up like the ghost town it was a few years ago. You historic lovers have had all the time in the world to take care of downtown LA and look what you have done with it.

And to you LASF, I like the Gaslamp district myself and I am far from a frat boy or drinken slut so _ _!. Are these type of comments really necessary or helpful? We all put out our ideas and if you don't like them it doen't mean EVERYONE doesn't like them so your comments can only be taken as an insult to someone else's idea. Isn't there a moderater here?

take a deep breath.... ok, as i said, Gaslamp is nice, but the scope of the conversation was if we wanted Downtown LA to look like the Gaslamp, essentially a more urban grove. Most of us dont, we have higher aspirations. doesnt mean we will get there, but its what we are striving for. And you cannot deny hte huge presence of Frat Boys and Sluts, afterall, CSUSD and UCSD are very near by. Not that there is anything wrong with those sluts....:tup:

[LAMetroGuy]

I think you are all wrong, Downtown LA will have slutty fratboys!

Seriously, I do agree that the Gaslamp is a bit too one sided in terms of diversity, etc. However, I think that appreciating the fact that it is clean and you do feel safe walking at night throughout the area is/are some of the features that we want for LA's Broadway (on a bigger scale). I think that LA's Broadway will become something similar to the Gaslamp area but (due to the size of LA's downtown) have more diverse areas with more interesting mini districts within the downtown area. LA cannot become San Diego, the demographics and lifestyles are much different. The surf/weather culture of San Diego along with the university crowds lends to the atmosphere of their downtown. LA will get something entirely different (you have hollywood types, surrounding Latino hoods, etc.) as the gentrification process continues.

[DowntownCharlieBrown]

Amen. Gaslamp is a nice little spot for frat boys and drunk sluts.

Hey, just because we get a little loose when we drink, there is no need to call us names. :D

Original Quote: k3d
Are you people kidding? Are we talking about the same Los Angeles? Your worried about plastic, fake, maufactured? I'll take fake plastic manufactured over a urban ghostown anyday. I hate to think what DTLA would turn out like if we continued to let DTLA "reflect an ongoing evolution of the city as a whole". Oh wait, thats where we started.
Restore the frickin buidlings and theaters but let's get some attraction down there before this place ends up like the ghost town it was a few years ago. You historic lovers have had all the time in the world to take care of downtown LA and look what you have done with it.

And to you LASF, I like the Gaslamp district myself and I am far from a frat boy or drinken slut so _ _!. Are these type of comments really necessary or helpful? We all put out our ideas and if you don't like them it doen't mean EVERYONE doesn't like them so your comments can only be taken as an insult to someone else's idea. Isn't there a moderater here?

I have to say I am loving this discussion about “Broadway”. Where else do you have such a glorious row of historical gems that are abandoned at 6:pm everyday? A place where so many (here on the forum have expressed) desire to go to in the evening, but there is nothing to do once you get there. Is it fabrication for the citizens to require the city to light the street and then require the building owners to clean up their property? If 7th street has been deemed restaurant row before the restaurants get there, is it manufactured, or is the labeling creating a synergy that is going to get it there.

I’m hearing Broadway needs more light, a cleaning, variety of businesses, and longer hours. I think it is ok to push for these things rather than leaving it the way it is.

Keep the discussion going, keep sharing ideas, please respect others ideas, and please stop calling us sluts names. ;)

[RAlossi]

Restore the frickin buidlings and theaters but let's get some attraction down there before this place ends up like the ghost town it was a few years ago.

Barring any huge catastrophe, Downtown isn't going to revert to its previous self. All the projects in the pipeline, all the projects under construction, and all the projects completed in the past seven years represent too much of an investment for Downtown to just lose its momentum and backtrack.

Think these condo owners are going to just let their neighborhoods deteriorate? Think the BIDs are going to just disappear? Not gonna happen.

If anything, the progress will slow down, but considering what's going to open up in the next few months through the next year, that will be a lot to keep us going for a long while.

[DowntownCharlieBrown]

Barring any huge catastrophe, Downtown isn't going to revert to its previous self. All the projects in the pipeline, all the projects under construction, and all the projects completed in the past seven years represent too much of an investment for Downtown to just lose its momentum and backtrack.



That is really hitting the nail on the head and brings up the point why Broadway is going to change to something different than it is today. The investment that has been put into downtown wants a return on that investment. Owners that have converted their buildings are going to want buyers for their lofts and loft owners have their list of wants for a vibrant street life.

[LosAngelesBeauty]

Will this possibly change momentum? The idea of global peak oil (www.peakoil.com) happening around 2010-2012? I'm dead serious. If it really does happen, how will it affect city development worldwide? How will it benefit or be detrimental to DTLA?

A brief video on YouTube about Global Peak Oil ($15 a gallon gas 18 months after peak oil begins).

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DMQd5nGEkr4


Any feedback would be appreciated...

[colemonkee]

Not that there is anything wrong with those sluts....:tup:
Agreed! At what point did we start hating on sluts?

[LAofAnaheim]

^ Okay...who's the idiot that came up with the idea that freeways were the best answer for transportation? (FDR looks around to his staff)

[petescafe]

They restored the cupola to st vibiana's. i had never seen this building without it since i only got into downtown LA 8 years ago. i think it looks fantastic.

From latimes.com
http://www.latimes.com/media/photo/2007-08/32194292.jpg

It looks complete again.:cheers:

[LosAngelesBeauty]

^^ More reason to be scared when global peak oil happens. A place like OC where cars are truly the only real choice, that's a scary thought when you think how expensive gas will be after peak oil.
------------------------------------------------------------------------

Wednesday, August 22, 2007

The Orange Grove: O.C. prefers more lanes to trains
Adding roadway capacity provides real traffic relief versus
mass-transit schemes.

By JERRY AMANTE
Mayor Pro Tem of Tustin, a director of the Orange County Transportation Authority


Orange County transportation leaders have a clear-eyed understanding that freeway widenings and
arterial improvements provide real traffic relief, and many officials in Los Angeles County who have
placed nearly all their eggs in one basket – transit basket – don't like the comparisons.


The Orange County Transportation Authority is completing the final couple miles of widening the
Santa Ana (Interstate 5) Freeway, all the way up to the L.A. County line, and a widening of the San
Diego (I-405) Freeway is next on the agenda. This has some L.A. leaders in an uproar because,
while they continue their decades-long practice of flushing millions in transportation tax dollars
down the drain on public transit, their constituents are increasingly noticing the difference between
the intermittent traffic on Orange County freeways and the gridlock they experience on L.A.
freeways.


There is a philosophical difference between OCTA's reputation as a road-builder – at least since the
proposed CenterLine light-right system was laid to rest several years ago – and Los Angeles'
Metropolitan Transportation Authority, which focuses its resources on subways and rail. What it
boils down to is that, in Orange County we're proud to build lanes, not trains.


Many Democrats in Sacramento were apoplectic about the governor's proposal earlier this summer
to help balance the state budget by trimming the bloated public transit budget. But while buses,
trains, monorails and subways seem like enticing transportation solutions in theory, they simply
don't pencil out. Not in terms of true traffic relief for the vast majority of commuters and certainly not
from a fiscal standpoint.


Consider this statistic: Nationwide, spending on public transit has increased seven-fold since 1960.
And what have those billions of dollars done for commuters? Not much. During that same period,
the number of public transit users has dropped by 63 percent and today less than five percent of all
Americans use public transportation.


Over the past 30 years the United States has increased road capacity by 5 percent while we have
143 percent more cars on the road today than we did in 1977. But for some reason, despite the fact
that money put into freeways is 11 times as cost-effective as money put into light rail, in most of
California roadways remain the red-headed stepchild of transportation improvements.


Earlier this summer the Reason Foundation released its 16{+t}{+h} annual report on the
Performance of State Highway Systems. In the category of "Urban Interstate Congestion,"
California ranked dead last of all 50 states. Drivers in Los Angeles spend on average 93 hours
every year sitting in traffic. That's more than two full work weeks – more than most people get to
spend on vacation every year.


It's time to fix our roads and build new ones.


Still, there are Democrats in Sacramento who are so zealous in their belief that public transit is the
only answer, that they have even gone so far as to try to pass legislation to stop new highway
construction – even if it's hundreds of miles outside their districts.


For example, after 25 years of planning and 10 years of environmental review, the Foothill-Eastern
Transportation Corridor Agency Board, where I sit as vice chair, voted to approve the 16-mile
connection of the Foothill (241) Toll Road to the I-5, south of San Clemente. Despite the fact that
this roadway will be built without any state tax dollars because it is a public toll road, Assemblyman
Jared Huffman, a Marin County Democrat, has introduced Assembly Bill 1457 in an effort to block
this traffic relief project.


This roadway will comply with both the California Environmental Quality Act (CEQA) and the
National Environmental Policy Act (NEPA), but following the environmental process is not
Huffman's goal – killing this road project is.


Whether it is completing the toll road system or implementing Measure M, Orange County's
self-imposed half-cent sales tax that primarily goes to improving our local roadways and freeways,
Orange County will continue to forge ahead with widening its freeways and city streets and building
new roads, even if we make Los Angeles look bad by comparison.


http://satollparty.com/images/SR91_OrangeCountyCA_full.jpg
satollparty.com

[DowntownCharlieBrown]

:previous: Yeah, I’m going write the Mayor of Tustin and thank him for my daily 45 min. to an hour, 16 mile commute to work, while having absolutely no alternative but to drive the freeway, :hell: which isn’t on the list to be widened anytime soon.

Keep building your subway, LA, and each mile of track puts you that much ahead of the rest of your surrounding counties.

[citywatch]

my comparison was strictly aesthetic, from a city scape/landscaping point of view.....this is kinda how i feel about south park which as an entertainment district is massively planned, sterile and whitewashed.
I think we both were making statements based on upward's set of photos of DTSD, so our descriptions didn't go beyond the "aesthetic". Pics also can make things look better or worse than they really are. But your gut reaction was that the shots of the gaslight dist meant that it "kicked DTLA's ass by a mile". Based on POVs like this (http://www.cp-dr.com/node/1732), you're not alone.

However, i'd say you're less optimistic than I am when you implied-----though you were kind of joking----that it may take 50 yrs for DTLA to "kick ass" on DTSD. Also, in your other post where you stated DTLA's glory days are 20 to 30 yrs in the future. I'd like to think that will happen well before then.

But if you do believe that south pk will be sterile & whitewashed in upcoming yrs, & that Broadway----esp if the city maintains a hands off policy towards it----will remain not too different from, or much better than the way it is today, then I can understand why your timeline & criteria are different from mine.

I don't care about the particulars of the differences between the gaslight dist, or DTSD in general compared with DTLA or Broadway. What I care about are the things that stood out in upward's photos:

- large crowds on sidewalks at night
- many bldgs, old & new, floodlit at night,
- classic historic bldgs, in good shape, mixed in with the newer ones
- busy sidewalk cafes & shops

Remove the particulars of whether you're dealing with the gaslight dist (or the rest of DTSD), Broadway in DTLA or the shot of manhattan in chrisla's photo, & if any of them are like the following, then they're NOT going to impress most ppl:

- small or non existent crowds on sidewalks at night
- many bldgs, old & new, are dark & rarely floodlit
- classic historic bldgs, in bad shape, remain segregated from newer ones
- closed up or non existent sidewalk cafes & shops.

DTLA has a more complex cultural & economic profile (for instance, Disney Hall, or the garment dist), so that to me makes it more serious minded than San Diego----whose gateway signs like "little italy" or "gaslight" are quaint & corny, or very Second cityish.

However, I'd guess that if you randomly selected a crowd of 100 or 1000 ppl, a majority of them, esp based on mostly superficial criteria, would mark DTSD higher than DTLA, as CP&DR did. And to change that will require that we have:

- large crowds on sidewalks at night
- many bldgs, old & new, floodlit at night
- classic historic bldgs, in good shape, mixed in with the newer ones
- busy sidewalk cafes & shops

[Echo Park]

I agree with everything you said there citywatch which makes me wonder just how superficial our differences are. But those are mostly generalities I think we can all agree on.

The 50 years comment is a hyperbole, but I don't think the 20-30 years isn't. I think its a stretch to say the DTLA will reach a critical mass or at least fluid and continuous high traffic pedestrian along all of its streets and avenues within the next 10 years. Just the fact alone that we won't get a wilshire subway line anytime soon (thanks to our government robbing transportation funds) is indicative of how slow things will go for downtown LA.

[Echo Park]

[/b]

- large crowds on sidewalks at night
- many bldgs, old & new, floodlit at night
- classic historic bldgs, in good shape, mixed in with the newer ones
- busy sidewalk cafes & shops

its funny though broadway actually has nearly half this formula down.

[fridayinla]

As I was walking over to the Daily Grill for dinner tonight, noticed something interesting going on at the 1027 Wilshire site. A small section on the north side of the lot is taped off, where a truck rig is drilling dirt out of the ground.

Last I read about this project, AMIDI Real Estate Group (http://www.amidigroup.com/AMIDIRealEstateGroup.html) has all entitlements in place and they planned to start construction by 3Q 2007. I don't want to sound any false alarms, but my better judgement says this is probably construction related. What do you guys think? I'll try to snap a photo tomorrow on my way to work.

http://img76.imageshack.us/img76/9350/1027wilshire1largetu8.jpg

[spoonman]

All these comments bashing Gaslamp show that you are all in denial about how much DTLA sucks ass... Those "plastic" buildings in the Gaslamp are older than almost all of the structures in DTLA. Gaslamp was a former red-light district 20 years ago and has slowly evolved since. It didn't just get cleaned up last week by some city mandate that called for a street with lots of restaurants. There are many other businesses other than restaurants in the Gaslamp, but the reason you don't see more offices there is because the building height limit (12 floors roughly) in the Gaslamp makes office construction less profitable. For those of you that don't know, the Gaslamp is only made of of 2-3 streets that span for a couple blocks.

[LosAngelesBeauty]

^ I don't think DTLA is better than DTSD today. I was just down in DTSD a few weeks ago. My bf and I walked around DTSD to fully experience it. And in all honesty, we concluded that it's a nice downtown, but it doesn't have the big city feel. It's much more quaint. If you like that (which a lot of people do), then that is perfect!

But DTLA is going toward a different path. It's got the bones for a larger feel. So in the future, it'll be up to the individual to decide what they prefer more of. Perhaps a little variety in life can't be a bad thing either...

[Steve2726]

As I was walking over to the Daily Grill for dinner tonight, noticed something interesting going on at the 1027 Wilshire site. A small section on the north side of the lot is taped off, where a truck rig is drilling dirt out of the ground.

Last I read about this project, AMIDI Real Estate Group (http://www.amidigroup.com/AMIDIRealEstateGroup.html) has all entitlements in place and they planned to start construction by 3Q 2007. I don't want to sound any false alarms, but my better judgement says this is probably construction related. What do you guys think? I'll try to snap a photo tomorrow on my way to work.



They also own 1010 Wilshire. If the rumors of that building changing to rentals from condos is correct than I would think the likelihood of the 1027 tower breaking ground has diminished. I hope I am wrong tho as that is a beautiful looking building. Here are some updated renders of 1010 Wilshire-

http://www.amidigroup.com/images/1010_wilshire1Large.jpg

http://www.amidigroup.com/images/1010_wilshire2Large.jpg

[colemonkee]

It's tough to really judge without seeing it, but based on Friday's description it sounds like soil testing going on at 1027 Wilshire. If that's the case, construction could be a few weeks or a few months off, depending on where they are in the engineering process. A photo or visit by the site will help clear things up. It really doesn't matter to me when this one starts, but that it starts eventually. It's one of my favorite proposed towers.

Steve, great renders of 1010 Wilshire. I don't see 1010 Wilshire going lease as a death knell for 1027 Wilshire. It is most likely the developer's foresight that it might be better off to wait until home loan financing becomes more readily available, and lease the units out until then. Leasing will be strong downtown during the mortgage slowdown. People are still making - and spending - money, it's just harder for them to get financing. Plus, I'd bet the condo map is already done, which means the developer can always convert and sell easily once the market turns back up.

[fridayinla]

^I don't think the 1010 Wilshire changing to rentals should have much effect on the 1027 Wilshire project. 1010 will be opening in today's market, but 1027 would be late 2010. A savy developer would realize that the market could shift by then. I know the Park Fifth developers are even banking on it.

I saw a few dark turquoise panels installed on the Wilshire side of 1010 a while back and wondered if that was the final exterior. Looks like it is. They're making a lot of noticeable progress on the building now and looks like there will be about 4 retail spaces. Very nice addition to City West.

[Steve2726]

You both have made compelling arguments. I hope you guys are right and lets hope this soil testing doesn't turn up any methane or earthquake faults...:sly:

[colemonkee]

^ The only methane on that site will likely come from the construction workers.

[Echo Park]

^ The only methane on that site will likely come from the construction workers.

:haha:

[ThreeHundred]

They must've gotten the construction workers from Fontana.

[LongBeachUrbanist]

The SD bashing is unnecessary. San Diego is San Diego. And anyway, nobody's suggesting we turn Broadway into the Gaslamp District.

I think citywatch's point (and mine too) is that we can learn a lot from the Gaslamp's example. As k3d suggested, how about starting with some additional city streetlamps?

NYC's Little Italy is not at all comparable to L.A.'s Historic Core. Little Italy is an old residential neighborhood in the most dense part of America's most dense city. L.A.'s Historic Core is a commercial district that has been neglected for decades. The Historic Core might be comparable to SoHo if it were surrounded by existing neighborhoods and well integrated with them. But it's not.

The Historic Core needs two things: an aesthetic upgrade, and better connections with surrounding neighborhoods. (The latter means no deadzones.) IMO, if you take care of these things, the neighborhood will flourish automatically. And if you don't take care of these things, it will be nearly impossible to create a great neighborhood.

[LongBeachUrbanist]

The following quote (a post by "John Crandell" on blogdowntown.com (http://blogdowntown.com/blog/2833#comments)) has some great ideas. I added color to ideas I particularly liked.

"The section of Broadway from Fifth to Sixth, including all four corners of both intersections seems to be most 'key' to eventually reclaiming the avenue from decay. The AGENCY, along with Hon. Councilwoman and Mayor acutely need to step forth and gather all of the property owners into a development corporation. Then enjoin outside investors."

Perhaps the entire ground floor of the Arcade Building could become some sort of retailing breakthrough, an array of gustatory delights from all over the planet."

Connections: any serious revamp of Pershing Square should consider crossing Hill at midblock and punching through to Broadway with a pedestrian connection lined with intimate retail. Think of Olvera Street - scale and intimacy. What if a developer were to buy the jewelry mart at Sixth & Hill and revamp the structure (and facade) into residential and add a residential tower above the Redline portal at Fifth & Hill? Many more residents in this area would prove a boon for Broadway."

[Westsidelife]

Another 74 Apartments For Fifth Street

News Brief

A long-planned adaptive reuse conversion of the 12-story Chester Williams Building at 215 W. Fifth St. received final approval last week. Developer Fifth Street Funding, which is currently transforming the nearby 1924 Arcade Building, plans to create 74 fully finished rental units, which could eventually be sold as condominiums. Mideb Nominees Inc., which is developing the adjacent Jewelry Trades Building, is overseeing construction on the newly announced project. "We go for a fully finished unit, we don't build lofts as far as exposed concrete. It is all plaster, dry-wall, marble, granite floors, hardwood floors, that sort of thing," said Greg Martin of Mideb. The building's unusually wide hallways will be preserved to the original layout, with fully restored marble corridors, rather than make room for extra units, Martin added. Construction is expected to begin in early fall and end as soon as late 2008. Christopher Compton Architects is involved in the project.

Source: http://www.downtownnews.com/articles/2007/08/27/news/news_briefs/at03.txt

http://farm2.static.flickr.com/1157/544199062_d420501827_b.jpg
From Flickr, by fridayinla

[dktshb]

am i the only person here who doesn't want dtla to become another gaslamp district? the gaslamp is vibrant and all, but don't you guys think it's a bit manufactured? it's nothing like for instance any given neighborhood of manhattan, where the hotspots are more organically distributed and reflect an ongoing evolution of the city as a whole.

the gaslamp is fun, but what real urban environment has door after door of themed restaurants with outdoor seating areas designated by city-blocks of steel perimeter fencing. it's little different from 3rd st promenade except with restaurants in place of retail, and thru-traffic. both are scripted pedestrian malls. there's something about these modern planning "successes" that make the newly gentrified downtowns really plastic. there's an irony in consciously designating retail centers and calling them "real cities" when they're almost entirely scripted. or for instance, erecting a self-conscious "little italy" gateway over a neighborhood which, like the rest of the city, is constantly evolving. what makes these any different from the caruso developments? I agree. We will have this contrived environment at LA Live. Let's let Broadway evolve organically.

[citywatch]

As I was walking over to the Daily Grill for dinner tonight, noticed something interesting going on at the 1027 Wilshire site. A small section on the north side of the lot is taped off, where a truck rig is drilling dirt out of the ground.

I don't want to sound any false alarms, but my better judgement says this is probably construction related.
I remember first seeing the rendering of the 1027 tower some time ago (late last yr?) & thinking it was so ambitious that the plans for it probably would end up collecting dust. Part of that skepticism is cuz I have a hard time thinking of any totally new devlpr west of the fwy as being more than shorter wood framed projs, like your Vero condo bldg, or the Piero or glo. So the thought of a really sleek highrise actually breaking ground around there in the not too distant future blows my mind.

Someone said that if the 1010 wilshire conversion proj is switching from condos to apts, then that meant 1027 was less likely to go forward. But if the amidi group owns both 1010 & 1027, then they're fully aware of what immediate competition exists in the hood (it's themselves!), & what problems may be starting to show up with slow sales. IOW, their eyes should be wide open.

The only projs I haven't wanted to see delayed, much less stopped, are parkfifth & the Grand Ave devlpt. Before that, it was Medallion.

I thought the glass tower was a sure thing before mid 2007. But its location at 11th & Grand, as important as it is, IMO hasn't seemed to be in as sore need of new construction ASAP. The same thing with South Gp's Jardin (now South Fig) tower.

The LA Central proj also fell into the same category to me, but after seeing how the other side of Staples needs totally new devlpt to balance LA Live, that's becoming an ASAP type of proj.

At this point in time, 1027 Wilshire is gravy. It will be awesome if it really does break ground shortly. But if it doesn't, I won't feel the same way I would if parkfifth is delayed next yr, or Grand Ave is delayed this yr.

However, 1027 would be more of an ASAP type of proj to me if it were located a few blocks to the east & south. Maybe as a gap filler of the big deadzone that sits on the east side of Flower St between 7th & 8th Sts., directly across from the 7th street Marketplace.

As for why I'm forcing myself to have some new found patience, beyond where a proj like 1027 is located in the hood, is cuz of stories like this:




Boom of condo crash loudest in Miami

Maya Bell | Sentinel Staff Writer
August 27, 2007

The champagne-popping days are over for Natalie and David Luongo, who banked enough money flipping a South Florida condo three years ago to stage a $100,000 wedding. Now the couple are spending restless nights wrestling with the question that looms like a guillotine: Should they walk away from the $117,000 deposit they plunked down on another investment condo in the ritzy Miami-Dade enclave of Bal Harbour?

Or should they close on the one-bedroom unit, which is similar to others now on the market for less than the $585,000 they agreed to pay?

"It's painful and scary," Natalie Luongo, 31, said. "We saw the frenzy, and we bought in. Now we're paying the consequences."

Just how many other speculators face the same dilemma in the nation's most glutted condo market will become clear during the next two years. That is when 25,000 new condo units, most of them rising in or near Miami's downtown, will flood an area already saturated with 23,000 condos listed for sale. An additional 40,000 units have been approved, but analysts doubt the majority will break ground.

Orlando and other Florida cities -- Naples, Fort Myers, Tampa and Sarasota among them -- also have huge condo gluts. With 4,440 condos listed for sale, Orlando has an unprecedented 29-month supply, and last month sales plummeted 64 percent lower than a year ago. But Miami, with its unmatched volume and untold number of speculative buyers, is ripe for the hardest fall in the U.S.

"Miami is the poster child for the condo bust," said Jack McCabe, CEO of McCabe Research & Consulting, a real-estate market-analysis firm located in Deerfield Beach. "There are probably only two cities in the world with more construction: Shanghai and Dubai. Unfortunately, there is going to be a lot of foreclosures . . ., and developers, lenders, title companies and real-estate companies will go under."

Many analysts, McCabe among them, predict the area's condo collapse will drag the rest of the state into recession. Other experts scoff at that notion. But nearly all agree grim times lie ahead.

Usually joyous milestones, closings in Miami are about to become somber days of reckoning for electricians, waiters, retirees and other amateur speculators who counted on making a quick killing in a market they thought would rise forever.

No one knows how many units speculators bought. But as early as 2004, McCabe and Lew Goodkin of Miami-based Goodkin Consulting warned that up to 70 percent of the condos rising in Miami were being snapped up by people who didn't plan to hold on to them, much less live in them. That was evident from the hordes who camped overnight, fought over lottery numbers, even paid homeless men $20 and a pack of cigarettes to hold their places in long lines, all for the chance to put 20 percent deposits on condos that existed only in brochures. The frenzy for some projects was so fevered that some developers raised their prices hourly.

[JDRCRASH]

Is Miami even relevant?
Besides, the full potential of the Los Angeles market dwarfs Miami's.
And its no @#$% joke. While Miami and Las Vegas start to head down the economic roller coaster, many parts of Los Angeles(including some in Downtown), are only picking up speed and gaining steam.



It's like a soda bottle; when shaken enough, there's a point to where the cap erupts.

After more than 60 years of Suburban prosperity, as old Ordinances are torn down........and as the basin begins to run out of space.....nothing, and I mean NOTHING, not even the might of the New York Stock Exchange will stop the resurrection of the Economic Phoenix that lies in Los Angeles.

HAH, go ahead and call my bluff by saying "LMFAO", but believe me, we have only tasted what Urban lifestyle is all about.....

[ThreeHundred]

Miami is relevent. It's the poster child of what NOT to do when it comes to devlopment.

[JDRCRASH]

You mean overspending?

[WonderlandPark]

Miami is relevent. It's the poster child of what NOT to do when it comes to devlopment.

Its also relevant because the BANKS and FINANCIERS got burned there and will be reluctant to repeat the experience in L.A., San Diego or elsewhere.

[citywatch]

Those "plastic" buildings in the Gaslamp are older than almost all of the structures in DTLA.
Your post made me do some homework.

First of all, do'h!! I referred to it previously as gasLIGHT, not GasLAMP.

I didn't think it was possible that a city that has had a smaller population than LA's going back to at least 1860 would end up with so many oldtime historic bldgs, or so many more than in DTLA.

Damn! You're right.

Placing the list below (http://www.gaslampquarter.org/history/map.php) in relationship to LA, the Bradbury bldg was built in 1893, & the Irvine Byrne/Pan pacific bldg (now converted to lofts) dates back to 1895. Those 2 bldgs are among the oldest in the hood, with few or none other predating them.

I guess the greater number of big quakes in LA over the past 80 yrs, & maybe the greater amt of churning in the devlpt industry in DTLA----where more ppl, devlprs with $$ in particular, have wanted to replace old bldgs thru the decades----have resulted in fewer of the hood's really old bldgs surviving.


1. William Heath Davis House, 1850 410 Island Avenue
2. Chinese Laundry, 1923 527 4th Avenue
3. Tai Sing Building, 1923 539 4th Avenue
4. Pacifica Hotel, 1910 547 4th Avenue
5. Lester Hotel, 1906 417 Market Street
6. Quin Building, 1930 500 4th Avenue
7. Casa De Tomas Addition, 1930 (Sewing Factory) 520 4th Avenue
8. Cotheret Building, 1903 (Gaslamp Hotel) 536 4th Avenue
9. Royal Pie Bakery, 1884 544 4th Avenue
10. Frey Block Building, 1911 345 Market Street
11. Broker's Building, 1889 404 Market Street
12. Carriage Works, 1890 655 4th Avenue
13. Labor Temple Building, 1907 (Horton Parsons Hall) 743 4th Avenue
14. Paris Hotel, 1910 409 F Street
15. Ingle Building, 1906 801 4th Avenue
16. Exchange Club Building, 1905 815 4th Avenue
17. Panama Cafe, 1907 827 4th Avenue
18. Windsor Hotel, 1887 843 4th Avenue
19. Lawyer's Block Building, 1889 901 4th Avenue
20. Schmitt Building, 1888 951 4th Avenue
21. Granger Building, 1904 964 5th Avenue
22. †First National Bank Building, 1884 904 5th Avenue
23. Woolworth Building, 1922 953 5th Avenue
24. Dalton Building, 1911 939 5th Avenue
25. Howard Building, 1887 933 5th Avenue
26. Watts-Robinson Building, 1913 903 5th Avenue
27. Onyx Building, 1910 852 5th Avenue
28. San Diego Hardware, 1910 840 5th Avenue
29. Ingersoll Tutton Building, 1894 832 5th Avenue
30. Mercantile Building 822 5th Avenue
31. Keating Building, 1890 432 F Street
32. †Louis Bank of Commerce, 1888 835 5th Avenue
33. †Nesmith-Greeley Building, 1887 825 5th Avenue
34. Hubbell Building, 1887 813-823 5th Avenue
35. Marston Building, 1881 809 5th Avenue
36. Spencer Ogden Building, 1874 770 5th Avenue
37. Loring Building, 1873 764 5th Avenue
38. Fritz Building, 1909 760 5th Avenue
39. Dunham Building, 1888 750 5th Avenue
40. Pat's Little Theater 746 5th Avenue
41. †Llewelyn Building, 1887 722 5th Avenue
42. †Cole Block Building, 1890 702 5th Avenue
43. William Penn Hotel, 1920 511 F Street
44. Dream Theater, 1885 755 5th Avenue
45. Pierce-Field Building, 1885 753 5th Avenue
46. †Old City Hall, 1874 664 5th Avenue
47. Old City Hall Addition, 1975 (Bijou Theater) 658 5th Avenue
48. †Backesto Building, 1873 614 5th Avenue
49. Bancroft Building, 1886 665 5th Avenue
50. Casino Theater, 1912 643 5th Avenue
51. †Yuma Building, 1888 631 5th Avenue
52. Combination Store, 1880 621 5th Avenue
53. McGurck Block Building, 1887 611 5th Avenue
54. Young Building, 1883 (Sun Cafe) 421 Market Street
55. Timkin Building, 1894 568 5th Avenue
56. Montijo Building, 1895 560 5th Avenue
57. Marin Hotel, 1888 552 5th Avenue
58. Loewenstein Building, 1887 544 5th Avenue
59. Stingaree Hotel, 1887 538 5th Avenue
60. Lincoln Hotel, 1913 536 5th Avenue
61. Yamada Building, 1869 516 5th Avenue
62. Callan Hotel, 1878 502 5th Avenue
63. Higgins Building, 1887 527 5th Avenue
64. Manila Cafe, 1930 515 5th Avenue
65. Nanking Building, 1912 467 5th Avenue
66. Island Hotel, 1877 449 5th Avenue
67. Grand Pacific Hotel, 1887 366 5th Avenue
68. Pioneer Warehouse, 1918 301 4th Avenue
69. Brunswig Drug Company, 1900 383 5th Avenue
70. TM Cobb Company Building, 1974 415 K Street
71. Buel-Town Company Building, 1898 274 5th Avenue
72. Samuel I. Fox Building, 1929 531 Broadway
73. St. James Hotel, 1912 844 6th Avenue
74. Sheldon Block, 1888 822 6th Avenue
75. George Hill Building, 1897 527 F Street
76. Snyder Building, 1923 748 6th Avenue
77. I.O.O.F. Building, 1882 526 Market Street
78. Alan John Factory, 1908 568 6th Avenue
79. Simmons Hotel, 1906 540 6th Avenue
80. Sterling Hardware Building, 1924 530 6th Avenue
81. New York Hotel, 1887 520 6th Avenue
82. Produce Market Building, 1918 454 6th Avenue
83. Manos Market, 1896 444 6th Avenue
84. Greenbaum Market Building, 1915 528 J Street
85. Whitney Building, 1914 345 4th Avenue
86. Chinese Mission Building, 1927 400 3rd Avenue
87. Quong Building, 1913 416 3rd Avenue
88. Chinese Consolidated Benevolent Association, 1911 428 3rd Avenue
89. Quin Residence, 1888 429 3rd Avenue
90. Ying-On Merchants & Labor Benevolent Association, 1925 500 3rd Avenue
91. Ying-On Annex, 1887 502 3rd Avenue
92. Plants & Fireproofing Building, 1928 540 3rd Avenue
93. Horton Grand/Kahle Saddlery Hotels, 1886 311 Island
94. San Diego Lumber Company Building, 1926 170 6th Avenue


Still, gateway signs in DTSD like this:

http://www.gaslampquarter.org/home-gateway.jpg


are a bit too theme park-ish for my taste. Not the worse thing, certainly, but overly manufactured by the standards of most big towns. IOW, can anyone imagine a city like NY having signs that say "little italy" or "SoHo", or "chinatown" arching above streets in Manhattan?

And the cultural scene in DTLA does have more depth----for instance, the Music Ctr, MOCA, the Colburn School, the Fashion Institute, 2nd largest garment industry in US, the LA Times----than the scene in DTSD, or, as described by LAB, more of a big city feel.

[citywatch]

A long-planned adaptive reuse conversion of the 12-story Chester Williams Building at 215 W. Fifth St. received final approval last week. Developer Fifth Street Funding, which is currently transforming the nearby 1924 Arcade Building, plans to create 74 fully finished rental units, which could eventually be sold as condominiums.
Thanks for posting that pic. Although I had a general idea of the bldg being described in the article, seeing what it actually looks like helps nail it down. And it's an excellent example of how crappy signage & banners really do wreck a bldg.

Now that I think of it----& have been reminded of what we have to deal with here----when it comes to signage, if something similar to the cutesy gateway signs in DTSD really were the only thing to gripe about here in LA, we wouldn't have so much to complain about in the first place.

[ThreeHundred]

You mean overspending?

Oversaturation.

Look at these pictures and count the cranes:
http://farm1.static.flickr.com/188/366930112_1cb7186cdd_b.jpg
James Good

http://farm2.static.flickr.com/1175/1194722929_e07ac54215_b.jpg
VisionMIA

From a building standpoint, that might look cool but from a business standpoint, MIA is setting itself for a rough road. You need to let some of these buildings fill up first. People might complain about how some of the new buildings proposed in DTLA are taking forever and a year to pan out but I'd rather wait a bit than to build everthing at once only to not have anyone live in them.

[WonderlandPark]

WOW, that last photo with the flag in it, frigging amazing shot from the car.

[ThreeHundred]

^ I agree. MIA has a cool if not boxy skyline. But how many people are going to migrate down there all at once? I wouldn't buy there. And I don't know a thing about investing. Lol.

[yakumoto]

After more than 60 years of Suburban prosperity, as old Ordinances are torn down........and as the basin begins to run out of space.....nothing, and I mean NOTHING, not even the might of the New York Stock Exchange will stop the resurrection of the Economic Phoenix that lies in Los Angeles.


Hint: For all the talk of zoning changes, Los Angeles' planning still effectively mandates auto oriented development.

[colemonkee]

Remember two years ago when i said "slow and steady will win the race" for development in Los Angeles? This Miami article just proves that point. I'd rather have a few towers under construction at a time downtown, with steady, controlled growth, than a boom-bust cycle.

[pip]

Is Miami even relevant?
Besides, the full potential of the Los Angeles market dwarfs Miami's.
And its no @#$% joke. While Miami and Las Vegas start to head down the economic roller coaster, many parts of Los Angeles(including some in Downtown), are only picking up speed and gaining steam.



It's like a soda bottle; when shaken enough, there's a point to where the cap erupts.

After more than 60 years of Suburban prosperity, as old Ordinances are torn down........and as the basin begins to run out of space.....nothing, and I mean NOTHING, not even the might of the New York Stock Exchange will stop the resurrection of the Economic Phoenix that lies in Los Angeles.

HAH, go ahead and call my bluff by saying "LMFAO", but believe me, we have only tasted what Urban lifestyle is all about.....

I have thought about that before. LA area is huge in population and it grows and grows and grows. Once downtown LA is discovered, so to speak, all I can say watch out; highrises, lowrises, retail, business, etc will be popping up left and right on a scale that will be huge.

[Westsidelife]

Remember two years ago when i said "slow and steady will win the race" for development in Los Angeles? This Miami article just proves that point. I'd rather have a few towers under construction at a time downtown, with steady, controlled growth, than a boom-bust cycle.

You made a good point there. Your reasoning makes perfect sense and needs to be explained to those who constantly complain about there not being the same amount of construction going on in Downtown as there is in Miami and Chicago.

[DTLA]

Even though this has been touched on before, the thing that will keep LA building is the fact that the population and density are higher, and there is nowhere else to build. Even though Miami is very dense downtown, once you leave downtown there are many open fields and lots of open space. Even if the demand for housing in LA decreases, there will always be a demand for housing and the only way to build is to build up, so it may take a while to get these projects going, but there will always be enough of a demand to get most of these projects built.

[JDRCRASH]

Wow, I counted 21 cranes in Miami.

Um, so... we can grow fast, as long as we can maintain that pace for a while?
Like overheating?
Like what happened in 1990 and 1991?

[LongBeachUrbanist]

Oh BTW, I was downtown yesterday, and saw two halves of a giant AT&T logo sign sitting next to AT&T Center (formerly the TransAmerica bldg). I have to guess that'll be going up very shortly.

(Saw it from the bus...sorry, no pics.)

[JDRCRASH]

What's funny is that New York City during the Great Depression was still booming with high-rises, including the Empire State Building.
Maybe it's because the Housing Market wasn't in trouble back then as it is now....


What the @#%& ?!
According to an article I read in a "Popular Science" magazine, the Big Apple no longer leads the world in skyscrapers anymore......its Shanghai.
Dude, guys......that was quick.

[DTLA]

^ I highly doubt the part about shanghai is true. According to this site, shanghai is #13 with NYC as #1 in terms of highrises. It could be true in terms of skyscrapers but not highrises. That distinction is very important. The surprising thing is that LA is listed as #6 in terms of number of highrises for the entire world. Is there any chance that's true??? I guess it's possible cause LA's skyline is so spread out so LA never seems as built up as it really is. Between DTLA, Century City, Westwood, the Miracle Mile, and Hollywood, it's possible that together they equal that many high-rises.

[DowntownCharlieBrown]

:previous: You get a few more if you add in the Valley and LAX area.

[DTLA]

^Good point I thought about the valley but just didn't put it in but I didn't even think about LAX. There are even a few all the way out in San Pedro.

[JDRCRASH]

I guess i'm not suprised seeing on how many skylines Los Angeles has.

[ThreeHundred]

Wow, I counted 21 cranes in Miami.

Um, so... we can grow fast, as long as we can maintain that pace for a while?
Like overheating?
Like what happened in 1990 and 1991?

What happened in the late 80's/early 90's was oversaturation of the office market. Pretty much the same thing as what's going on in Miami.

[edluva]

LA is nowhere near being in the league of shangai...even counting the entire metro's highrises.

[DTLA]

^I wouldn't have thought so either, but if u go from this forum, press on Home and then press on Cities it shows a list of highrises and it ranks LA over Shanghai. I'm not sure if it's right, but that's what it shows. The key thing to remember is high-rise vs. skyscrapers. Shanghai dominates LA in terms of skyscrapers, no competition. However, LA is much higher in terms of high-rises.

[yakumoto]

^I wouldn't have thought so either, but if u go from this forum, press on Home and then press on Cities it shows a list of highrises and it ranks LA over Shanghai. I'm not sure if it's right, but that's what it shows. The key thing to remember is high-rise vs. skyscrapers. Shanghai dominates LA in terms of skyscrapers, no competition. However, LA is much higher in terms of high-rises.

Are you seriously comparing Los Angeles to what's happening in China?

[JDRCRASH]

^ ^ ^

Well, we could out-build Shanghai if we wanted to, if you think about it.
I mean we've got sooo much space for more suburbs in the Mojave Desert.
Then we could build up in the basin.

But here's something interesting about China:

In one decade, China has built the equivelant of the entire U.S. Interstate Highway System....in one decade!!!(although there's something fishy about it)