[Taeolas]

That end of the mall does need some help. Even after all the renovations there, it always seems dark there compared to the rest of the mall. (Brighter than when it was the Superstore with its cafe, but still very dark). The rest of the mall does have enough empty slots scattered around that they should easily be able to move those stores to other places at least. Especially if they expand the retail into that carpeted area. (Since Sports Check will be able to move their mall entrance; if they even keep a mall entrance).

Purely guessing, I'd say Fairweather will take one of the slots near HMV; the old Aliant store or Sony store. Pearl Vision will probably take the other one, which should be big enough for them plus an optometrist, and has a chance to punch an outside access through to a public area if they still want that. Stitches will just hop across the hall to that other empty corner slot where the jewelry store used to be.

Should be interesting at least. And I am curious as to who will take that trio of spots. It's a big area and I can't think of any big guys coming in that would look at the mall instead of the Corbett centre.

[thatcanadianguy]

Pearle Vision would definitely have to punch through if they want to keep the optometrist... I think it's a legal requirement for doctors to have direct exits to outdoors.

[Taeolas]

Freddy results from the Census: (2006 in brackets)

Freddy City: 56,224 (50,535) 11.3% change
York County: 97,238 (90,026) 8% change
Freddy CA: 94,268 (86,226) 9.3% change
Freddy + Oromocto: 135,467 (127,276) 6.4% change.

From the looks of it, the Freddy CA should easily crack 100k by next census, as long as we can pull off at least 6.1% growth.

And if we could somehow amalgamate with Oromocto we'd be the second biggest city. :P (Of course comparing apples to apples, and Economic Region to Economic Region we're still 3rd )

(PS: All of Freddy's numbers should be +1 since the Census never got to me due to me moving in the middle of the gathering period. :( I called and said I hadn't gotten any forms but they never got the paperwork back to me or anything. )

[MonctonRad]

From the looks of it, the Freddy CA should easily crack 100k by next census, as long as we can pull off at least 6.1% growth.

and one census after that, Fredericton could become NB's third CMA! :)

[Taeolas]

What's the criteria for becoming a CMA instead of just a CA? It can't just be population because I think Sydney is over 100k but isn't a CMA... or maybe I'm wrong.

[MonctonRad]

What's the criteria for becoming a CMA instead of just a CA? It can't just be population because I think Sydney is over 100k but isn't a CMA... or maybe I'm wrong.

A regional population of more than 100,000 with a certain threshold population in the urban core (I believe 50,000). CBRM has more than 100k (for now) but is an agglomeration of smaller towns therefore does not meet the criteria for the urban core. Sydney I believe is about 33k.

Fredericton will meet the criteria soon. Not the next census, but it will be considered a CMA for the census after that. :tup:

[Taeolas]

Thanks for clearing that up. And yes, unless something Really Bad happens in the next 5 years, 6% growth should be pretty easy for the Freddy region to pull off, which would put our CA in the 100k+ territory for a CMA. If an Urban core of 50k criteria is correct, we already have that well covered.

[mylesmalley]

You have to meet the requirements for CMA status in the previous census to get counted as one for the next. I.e. if Fredericton meets the requirements in 2016, they'll be counted as a CMA in 2021.

Moncton had a high enough population in 2001 at around 114k, but wasn't counted until 2006 and a pop of 127k.

[kirjtc2]

For what it's worth:

Southside = 30,529 (54%)
Northside = 25,695 (46%)

[cl812]

Freddy results from the Census: (2006 in brackets)

Freddy City: 56,224 (50,535) 11.3% change
York County: 97,238 (90,026) 8% change
Freddy CA: 94,268 (86,226) 9.3% change
Freddy + Oromocto: 135,467 (127,276) 6.4% change.

From the looks of it, the Freddy CA should easily crack 100k by next census, as long as we can pull off at least 6.1% growth.

And if we could somehow amalgamate with Oromocto we'd be the second biggest city. :P (Of course comparing apples to apples, and Economic Region to Economic Region we're still 3rd )

(PS: All of Freddy's numbers should be +1 since the Census never got to me due to me moving in the middle of the gathering period. :( I called and said I hadn't gotten any forms but they never got the paperwork back to me or anything. )

This is good news.

Also, glad to hear all three major cities in NB reported solid growth since the last the last census. Great for the province as a whole. Noticed the provincial pop also increased by 20-30k.

[Taeolas]

That it did. But most of the growth was in the Southern part. South of Freddy in particular. As I mentioned elsewhere, Woodstock was more or less stagnant, and the further north you go, the greater the losses you get. The Northern cities all shrunk, or at best stayed what they were before.

Still, back on the silver side, the overall province population DID grow, which shows that not all of the Southern growth was due to provincial cannibalism.

[KnoxfordGuy]

Yay Freddy! :) My hometown of Centreville, about 30km north of Woodstock was at 523 in 2006 and now sits at 542! lol great :rolleyes:Florenceville-Bristol went from 1,539 to 1,639. Woodstock went from 5,113 to 5,254. I just feel Fredericton needs to know about its family up river :tup:

[Taeolas]

I grew up in Woody, so I also looked at those number. I only looked at the Parishes around Woodstock + Woodstock itself, so I may be missing some.

Richmond: 1358 (1414) -4%
Wakefield 2814 (2703) 4.1%
Northampton 1825 (1599) 14.1%
Woodstock Parish 2165 (2148) 0.8%
Woodstock Town 5254 (5113) 2.8%
Woodstock Reserve 345 (338) 2.1%

The numbers for Richmond seem a bit off; I grew up along the old Houlton Road, and there's been a LOT of development there. Then again, the rest of the parish may be emptying out, explaining the big drop.

Northampton's growth is a given, that's all Grafton basically. It's way past due for Woodstock to expand its town limits there. Its past due to expand the limits past the TCH too for that matter.

[Taeolas]

And in other news, Northside Salvation Army (http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/new-brunswick/story/2012/02/10/nb-salvation-army-store.html) needs a new home, after their landlord basically kicked them out.

Two questions are left:

1. Where will Sally Am set up next.
2. Who is this big client that was willing to pay double the rent in a (relatively speaking) run down minimall?

[cl812]

Noticed yesterday there is now a sign up on Bishop Drive for the new Hampton Inn.

[KnoxfordGuy]

Does anyone want to change the picture of Fredericton on the Wikipedia page? It needs one that does not flood it in darkness lol

[cj6286]

Does anyone want to change the picture of Fredericton on the Wikipedia page? It needs one that does not flood it in darkness lol

I wish I could figure out how. One of those Fredericton Tourism photos or a collage of those photos would look nice.

[KnoxfordGuy]

From flickr.com

New apartments on Queen St. I think you know where it is. The pics are mine but I don't care lol.
http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7065/6882009869_3dc3dca519_b.jpg

Just a random pic I took :rolleyes:
http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7195/6856805419_2ab10be33b_b.jpg

[cl812]

copied post from Saint John Thread

We're on WestJet's radar with their new regional airline...

From THE DAILY COURIER, Kelowna, BC

WestJet raises dividend and adds new regional airline to take flight in 2013.
Wednesday, 08 February 2012 01:34 LuAnn LaSalle, The Canadian Press


WestJet confirmed Wednesday it will launch a low-fare, no frills regional airline, intensifying competition in smaller domestic markets with rival Air Canada (TSX:AC.B) for business and leisure class travellers.

"It's the next logical step in WestJet's evolution," president and CEO Gregg Saretsky said on a conference call Wednesday.

WestJet is considering either Bombardier's Q400 NextGen 70 to 80-seat aircraft designed for short hauls or Italian-French company ATR's 72-600 series, Saretsky said after the airline reported profits fell 4.3 per cent in its fourth quarter.

Saretsky said he expects that WestJet's regional airline will be up and running before the end of 2013 and the Calgary-based airline will place an order with either Bombardier (TSX:BBD.B) or ATR later this year.

"Both are excellent aircraft that would fit seamlessly into our current fleet. I want to emphasize that the regional fleet will consist of just one type of aircraft to maintain operational efficiencies and flexibility similar to the successful single-fleet approach we use in our current operations."

Saretsky said he couldn't yet say when the fleet will be delivered, nor announce market destinations or an exact launch date.

"We believe the short-haul turbo prop aircraft combined with WestJet's brand, strong balance sheet and low-cost structure will allow us to strengthen our domestic network for both leisure and business guests."

Saretsky said employees of WestJet (TSX:WJA) voted 91 per cent in favour of launching the regional carrier.

"We're trying to the degree possible to replicate exactly the way WestJet was started in 1996 - single fleet, low cost, highly productive, good utilization... a seating configuration that provides us a cost advantage over other operators of similar aircraft."

Air Canada has said it wanted to introduce a low-cost carrier to help trim costs but hasn't been able to get it in the air yet.

Chorus Aviation's Jazz (TSX:CHR.B) operates regional flights for Air Canada under contract.

"This is the biggest game-changer in Canadian aviation since WestJet was founded in 1996, which is ironic," said Robert Kokonis, president of airline consulting firm AirTrav Inc.

But it's also good for travellers who will have more choice, he said.

"The biggest winner clearly, upfront, is the consumer," he said.

There are communities across the country where they're only being served on by Jazz or by other carriers and could benefit from some competition, Kokonis said.

Communities that WestJet currently doesn't serve include Medicine Hat, Alta.; Brandon, Man.; and Fredericton and Saint John, N.B., he said.

Kokonis said Air Canada is a "very robust" competitor and will take on WestJet.

"If any airline can make a separate airline division work, I think it's WestJet because their corporate culture, their employee culture is so strong, so focused in an unrelenting way, I believe they can make a go of it."

WestJet also announced Wednesday that it's raising its dividend by 20 per cent. The Calgary-based company said the quarterly dividend will climb a penny to six cents per share, to be paid on March 30.

In it financial results, WestJet posted lower profits of $35.6 million, or 26 cents per share, compared to $37.2 million, or 26 cents per share in the comparable period of 2010.

The results beat average analyst expectations of 20 cents per share, according to a poll by Thomson Reuters.

Revenue grew 12.9 per cent to $721.5 million from $692.2 million.

"We managed to cover the elevated fuel costs with our revenue growth and improve our profit margin on a full-year basis," Saretsky said.

WestJet's 737s can't make long-haul journeys to Asia or Europe. So the company has been seeking partnerships with other carriers to expand its global reach and Saretsky said the Calgary airline will continue on with that strategy this year.

In the United States, WestJet is working with American Airlines and Delta. On the international front, WestJet has announced partnerships with British Airways, Cathay Pacific, China Airlines, Air France and KLM.

National Bank Financial analyst Cameron Doerksen said WestJet's earnings were better than forecasted and revenue of $782 million was essentially in line with his estimate of $776 million. Earnings per share of 26 cents was beat his forecast of 21 cents, he said in a research note.

Shares in WestJet were up 53 cents, or four per cent, to $13.63 in afternoon trading on the Toronto Stock Exchange.

[cl812]

From the Fox Website:

http://www.foxrocks.ca/news/Story.aspx?ID=1655625

Local News
City's planning advisory committee approves numerous business applications
2/15/2012
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

A couple of new businesses may be opening up on Prospect Street. Fredericton's planning advisory committee dealt with two applications at opposite ends of the busy street. Dr. Ali Crandlemire was granted a temporary use variance to permit a veterinary hospital in the former Ponderosa Plaza. City staff notes there are currently several other clinic-type businesses in that complex, and feel a vet hospital is a similar use that will not adversely impact adjacent businesses. A zoning application was also approved to allow for a self-storage facility on a lot adjacent the Lakeview Inn and Suites. A building proposed for the front of the same property will house some office and retail space. A Starbucks Coffee drive-thru is a strong possibility in part of the building. All of the applications need the final approval of city council.

______

The owner of the Regent Street Convenience Store has some big expansion plans. Fredericton's planning advisory committee has approved an application that will in part allow for a new building to be constructed to house the store and second floor living accommodations for the owner. The current store will be torn down. The owner intends to start serving sandwiches and pizza as well. City staff notes it will not be a take out restaurant where customers will order ahead for pick up. The food will be made on-site but there will be no seating provided. The proposal needs a final OK from city council.

______

A company that cleans and stores items damaged by water or fire is expanding its Fredericton operation. A.L Gullison Disaster Kleenup is currently located on Riverside Drive, and is close to buying a piece of the nearby former Green Village property. The city's planning advisory committee has approved a tentative subdivision plan and similar use variance allowing for the business. The plan involves the demolition of a house on the property. The company will use an existing warehouse for cleaning and storage. City council still needs to approve the application.

_____

The city's development services department and planning advisory committee say enough is enough. PAC members have granted a one-year temporary use variance for a commercial lot on George Street for the last time. The lot is owned by Christ Church Parish Church, and the parking spots are leased. The church has been issued a temporary variance every year since 2005. City staff says next year the church will have to come back with a development application asking for a zone amendment instead. It would have to include a condition that the use of the land for a parking lot will eventually be terminated in favour of a more appropriate residential development.

[Freddypop]

Target has partnered with Starbucks

http://www.cbc.ca/news/business/story/2012/02/15/target-starbucks-canada.html

Looks like the Uptown Centre location will be serving coffee as well

[Justin6463]

FWIW, I've heard that Freddy will be getting a 2nd Papa John's. Somewhere on the northside, possibly the old Quizno's on Main location.

[Taeolas]

It's been doing that well since opening? That's good. Both good to see more things moving back to Main street, and to see them coming to the North side.

I'm surprised Quiznos closed on the North side to be honest. We have 2 in spitting distance of eachother on the South side, and 6-7 Subways, but we couldn't support a 3rd Quiznos?

[cj6286]

For those of you that are interested, the satellite imagery for the north side has been updated again on google maps, so now you can see the progress in West Hills Village, Brookside West, and housing developments along Cliffe Street. I wish the south side would get some updates soon...

http://g.co/maps/rff94

http://g.co/maps/phw4u

http://g.co/maps/gxvf8

[cl812]

For those of you that are interested, the satellite imagery for the north side has been updated again on google maps, so now you can see the progress in West Hills Village, Brookside West, and housing developments along Cliffe Street. I wish the south side would get some updates soon...

http://g.co/maps/rff94

http://g.co/maps/phw4u

http://g.co/maps/gxvf8

Also read in the Gleaner the other day that a new strip mall is planned across from Willie O'Ree Place on Cliffe St (received PAC approval).

[Taeolas]

It's been noticed how close we are to becoming a CMA, and the Mayor wants to do what he can to push us over into it. Could anything we do now get us over the 100k mark so we can be a CMA in 5 years? Or is it going to be 10 years no matter what before we're officially one?

I don't know what the dead trees said about this, but the airwaves reported this:

From Fox (http://www.foxrocks.ca/news/Story.aspx?ID=1658120):
Members of Fredericton's Development Committee heard some positive stats Tuesday from the 2011 census. But a coveted designation still eludes the capital region. Although the city's population has gone up a healthy 11 per cent since 2006 to more than 56,000, when you add those who live in communities adjoining Fredericton, we still fall short of the 100,000 needed to earn the title of census metropolitan area. That would change if Oromocto were included, but it's not, so Mayor Brad Woodside (left) has asked city staff to come up with a plan to earn the CMA designation...


From FredFM (http://fredfm.ca/blogs.asp?blogid=354&bloggerid=5)

Brad Wants CMA

Mayor Brad Woodside is asking city staff to do a report on how Fredericton can achieve CMA or Census Metropolitan Area status in the next census. The Fredericton area currently has a population of just under 95 thousand but needs to hit 100,000 in order to become a CMA.Woodside says being a metropolitan area has big benefits because larger corporations will want to set up shop in an area where they see the potential for growth.Woodside says there is some property in Lincoln which borders Oromocto and if the city purchased these parcels of land, then the population of Lincoln could be included in Fredericton, thus hitting CMA status like Saint John and Moncton.


The news report on Fred FM also said the Mayor wanted to assure residents of Lincoln that they weren't looking at Amalgamating; just a closer union. Frankly though, IMO it's past due that we should be looking at amalgamating with some of our suburb communities. We haven't changed much since the last wave 30 some years ago.

Another thing I'm a bit curious about, does Stats Can have commuter numbers for Freddy and Oromocto? Could Oromocto be dragged into Freddy's CA that way, or does Base Gagetown pull too much on Oromocto for us to ever reasonably get those necessary numbers?

[Justin6463]

More restaurant news guys. I've heard that one of our Tim's will be converted to have a Cold Stone Creamery in time for this summer.

[MonctonRad]

Another thing I'm a bit curious about, does Stats Can have commuter numbers for Freddy and Oromocto? Could Oromocto be dragged into Freddy's CA that way, or does Base Gagetown pull too much on Oromocto for us to ever reasonably get those necessary numbers?

Yes, StatsCan does indeed keep tabs on commuter stats. You are quite right that it's probably CFB Gagetown which is keeping Oromocto from being included in the Fredericton CA(CMA).

Shediac is no more geographically remote from Moncton than Oromocto is from Freddy. It is literally only a 15 minute drive between the two communities but the commuter stats have fallen just below the threshhold to allow Shediac to be included in the Moncton CMA. If Shediac were included, then the Moncton CMA would have it's population boosted to 144-145,000.

[mylesmalley]

As far as the rules are concerned, I don't think there's any way to get counted as a CMA for the next census. A city has to have a population centre size of 50,000 and CA size of 100,000 or more to get considered. AND it only becomes a CMA the census after the first one that meets those expectations. I don't doubt for a second that Fredericton will be a CMA in 2021, but unless STatCan gives some special consideration because of amalgamation or some such, trying to push things along isn't going to help.

[mylesmalley]

Just to add. This is taken from the notes on census data.

"Occasionally, data errors are uncovered after the publication of the 2011 population and dwelling counts. Statistics Canada does not go back and update these data errors in the 2011 Census data products; they remain the same as they were when originally published."

If they aren't open to making data corrections when errors have occurred, I really can't see them making changes based on number-massaging.


ALSO, the size of a city or the territory a municipality covers has very little bearing on what gets counted as part of a CMA. Moncton's, for example, includes all of Moncton ,Riverview and Dieppe, but also all the way to Salisbury and down to Alma. Fredericton's already includes Lincoln, New Maryland, and almost half-way down to Saint John.

EDIT:
Here's a map of what gets counted as part of Fredericton's CMA.

http://www12.statcan.gc.ca/census-recensement/2011/dp-pd/prof/details/page_Map_Carte_Detail.cfm?Lang=E&G=1&Geo1=CMA&Code1=320&Geo2=PR&Code2=13&Data=Count&SearchText=fredericton&SearchType=Begins&SearchPR=01&B1=All&Custom=&TABID=1&geocode=320

[cl812]

The thing that I find interestig about this is that they are talking about expanding the city's boundary, but that will not affect how many people travel from Oromocto to Fredericton for work. That figure would likely never change given that the majority of people who live in Oromocto work at the base. I do however think that Oromocto/Burton should be included in the Fredericton CA, given the proximity. That would push the population probably between 105,000 to 110,000 (given Oromocto is about 9k and Burton LSD is about 4-5k). Also, I believe both Oromocto (town) and Burton (LSD) are not that large geographically so it wouldnt add too much to the overall area of the CA.

[KnoxfordGuy]

The whole front section of rug at the regent mall is now closed off. looks like something is starting to happen. :tup:

[mmmatt]

The thing that I find interestig about this is that they are talking about expanding the city's boundary, but that will not affect how many people travel from Oromocto to Fredericton for work. That figure would likely never change given that the majority of people who live in Oromocto work at the base. I do however think that Oromocto/Burton should be included in the Fredericton CA, given the proximity. That would push the population probably between 105,000 to 110,000 (given Oromocto is about 9k and Burton LSD is about 4-5k). Also, I believe both Oromocto (town) and Burton (LSD) are not that large geographically so it wouldnt add too much to the overall area of the CA.

Yes but as Myles was saying Oromocto will not be added to the Freddy CA because of that reason. A CA is comprised of a core (Fredericton) and the surrounding communities in which over 50% of the population (or there abouts) works in that core. As you said most people who live in Oromocto also work in that area. So it is in fact, by statscans point of view, a self sustaining community separate from Fredericton.

[NBNYer]

:previous: There is also the reverse commuting rule where if 25% of the Oromocto workforce commute in from the Fredericton CA, then both areas can be made part of the same CA. This might be triggered first in situations where a suburb contains a large employer which draw people in from the core, like CFBG.

[mylesmalley]

At any rate, I don't' really know how big of an impact being a CMA actually is to businesses looking to set up shop. There are much more valuable figures, such as density, population within 5, 10, 25km, etc.

If you have a business actively looking for new markets and they go to the trouble of checking to see if a city happens to fall under the CMA criteria, I would hope that they'd look at as many figures as possible.

I've always personally thought that urban area (or population centre as they're now known) is a better indicator of a city's size anyway. There is much stricter rules, and it removes a lot of the empty space that gets tied in to a CMA's territory. Moreover, it gives a much more accurate depiction of how big a city is in a practical sense.

[MonctonRad]

:previous:

And to that end, here are the top ten Population Centres (urban areas) in Atlantic Canada from the 2011 census:

1- Halifax - 297,943
2- St. John's - 165,346
3- Moncton - 107,086
4- Saint John - 95,902
5- Fredericton - 61,522
6- Charlottetown - 46,602
7- Sydney - 31,597
8- Truro - 23,261
9- New Glasgow - 20,601
10- Corner Brook - 19,759

[KnoxfordGuy]

Where did you get those numbers? Frederictons city center is at 56,000 and the CA is 95,000 is it not?:previous:

[MonctonRad]

Where did you get those numbers? Frederictons city center is at 56,000 and the CA is 95,000 is it not?:previous:

The numbers are from Statistics Canada and refer to the population centre which is equivalent to the contiguous built-up urban area. This is different from the CA/CMA which has a lot more to do with the commuter watershed.

I included the list because Myles made reference to it as the best indicator of a city's actual size.

But take heart, for Freddy to be elevated to a CMA, your POPCTR would have to be more than 50,000 and you already exceed that threshhold. Now all you have to do is get your CA population above 100,000 and you will have it made in the shade! :tup:

Here's the link if you want...
http://www12.statcan.gc.ca/census-recensement/2011/dp-pd/hlt-fst/pd-pl/Table-Tableau.cfm?LANG=Eng&T=801&SR=276&S=51&O=A&RPP=25&PR=0&CMA=0

[KnoxfordGuy]

Sweet! Thanks for the info!:)

[cj6286]

In regards to the city expanding it's boundaries, can Fredericton spill over the border into Sunbury County? Or do we have to stay within our means in York County?

[mylesmalley]

Counties don't have any significance anymore, other than as a way of dividing territory and as a convenient border point for things like electoral districts.

If you look at the google map for sunbury county, it looks as though they keep a town in the county it starts off in and when land gets annexed, they add the land and make it part of the original county.

[cl812]

In regards to the city expanding it's boundaries, can Fredericton spill over the border into Sunbury County? Or do we have to stay within our means in York County?

A small portion of the city is actually in Sunbury County, or atleast it used to be.

[kirjtc2]

If you look at the google map for sunbury county, it looks as though they keep a town in the county it starts off in and when land gets annexed, they add the land and make it part of the original county.

Not completely true. The county boundaries haven't officially changed in over 100 years. When a municipality crosses a county line, StatsCan counts the whole thing as being in one county or another for census purposes. Since way too many map companies get their GIS data from StatsCan, that error is repeated all over the place.

The biggest example is Minto, which is split in half by the Sunbury/Queens line:
http://www.openstreetmap.org/?lat=46.0877&lon=-66.0582&zoom=13&layers=M

StatsCan puts the whole thing in Queens. The whole thing is academic for pretty much everything but surveys and land registration, but since I worked in that field for a while I had to keep all that in mind.

Anyway, getting this back on topic....yes, there is a little bit of Fredericton in Sunbury County.

[mylesmalley]

Today I learned. Thanks, kirjtc2!

[Taeolas]

Heard on the Fox this morning (not on the websites yet) but apparently the PaywallLockedNewspaper was reporting that the Union street development has been changed. Instead of Townhouses + Apartments, it will just be Apartments only.

[Freddypop]

Heard on the Fox this morning (not on the websites yet) but apparently the PaywallLockedNewspaper was reporting that the Union street development has been changed. Instead of Townhouses + Apartments, it will just be Apartments only.

Yes...In a certain newspaper this AM as well. Apparently residents were concerned re the additional traffic the townhomes would produce. So after meeting with the residents and the local city councillor, the developer decided to drop the town homes and only build the 2 apartment buildings. Based on the comments in the paper it would appear that the concerns of the residents have been met and this revised project will move forward. Developer states that the cost is $6M and construction will begin in the spring. 1st & 2nd reading tonight. Will go to 3rd reading in March.

[Taeolas]

While I'm a little disappointed the project is scaled back a bit, I'm glad that it was the townhouses that got the ax and not the apartments. (Though maybe one of the apartment buildings could be redone as condos?). Denser living will help us out in the longer term, especially if it's quality.

[OliverD]

Yes...In a certain newspaper this AM as well. Apparently residents were concerned re the additional traffic the townhomes would produce. So after meeting with the residents and the local city councillor, the developer decided to drop the town homes and only build the 2 apartment buildings. Based on the comments in the paper it would appear that the concerns of the residents have been met and this revised project will move forward. Developer states that the cost is $6M and construction will begin in the spring. 1st & 2nd reading tonight. Will go to 3rd reading in March.

This is a terrible, short-sighted idea for various reasons.

First of all, the traffic impact of a mere nine townhouses is negligible. There's still going to be 60 units there, no?

The densification of the Union Street area is inevitable. It's the only northside neighborhood that has convenient access to both uptown AND downtown. There's also a lot of cheap real estate there right now. Granted, a lot of those buildings are in rough shape but there is definitely potential to make a lot of money.

At the same time, there's some very nice homes on Union Street that will remain as-is. It would be a shame to change the street-scape too much. Having those nine townhouses near the street would have allowed the development to blend in with the existing nearby houses (assuming they had similar architectural details).

The real issue at hand is that Fredericton lacks a proper east-west artery on the north side, much like the south side doesn't have a north-south artery. It was short-sighted of the city to not plan for one when the Ring Road was built. Two Nations Crossing has potential but now they are building the school on one end of it so I doubt it will ever be properly extended. Realistically, there needs to be a controlled-access route running from the Marysville Bypass across the Nashwaak and Canada Street and extending to 2NC.

[cl812]

This is a terrible, short-sighted idea for various reasons.

First of all, the traffic impact of a mere nine townhouses is negligible. There's still going to be 60 units there, no?

The densification of the Union Street area is inevitable. It's the only northside neighborhood that has convenient access to both uptown AND downtown. There's also a lot of cheap real estate there right now. Granted, a lot of those buildings are in rough shape but there is definitely potential to make a lot of money.

At the same time, there's some very nice homes on Union Street that will remain as-is. It would be a shame to change the street-scape too much. Having those nine townhouses near the street would have allowed the development to blend in with the existing nearby houses (assuming they had similar architectural details).

The real issue at hand is that Fredericton lacks a proper east-west artery on the north side, much like the south side doesn't have a north-south artery. It was short-sighted of the city to not plan for one when the Ring Road was built. Two Nations Crossing has potential but now they are building the school on one end of it so I doubt it will ever be properly extended. Realistically, there needs to be a controlled-access route running from the Marysville Bypass across the Nashwaak and Canada Street and extending to 2NC.

I tend to agree, eliminating the 9 townhouses isnt likely to make much difference in terms of traffic. If anything I would think that people would be more supportive of the townhouses as I assume that they would front on the street and in my opinion they would tie the development in with the area more so.

[Freddypop]

Noticed they are dismantling the crane at the new Queen Street West apartment complex (Old TRa Building)

Here is the link for pics of the new F'ton North Elementary School off of Cliffe Street

http://newfrederictonnorthschool.nbed.nb.ca/gallery/construction

[cj6286]

Chippins has updated the page for Brookside West (http://www.chippins.com/BW67r1.jpg). This summer they're going to start building the residential lots! :tup:

[cl812]

Noticed they are dismantling the crane at the new Queen Street West apartment complex (Old TRa Building)

Here is the link for pics of the new F'ton North Elementary School off of Cliffe Street

http://newfrederictonnorthschool.nbed.nb.ca/gallery/construction

I had no idea the new schoo was that far along. I thought they were still doing site prep work.

[DisplacedHaligonian]

Chippins has updated the page for Brookside West (http://www.chippins.com/BW67r1.jpg). This summer they're going to start building the residential lots! :tup:


and now I know who my other Google Map Maker buddy for Freddy-area is :cheers:

[Taeolas]

Just some things I noticed...

Jack and Andy's has closed down; there's a small for rent sign in its window now.

Laura Secord in the mall is moving around the corner to Bently's old spot across from Carleton Cards.

and El Burrito Loco has reopened now; or at least their open sign was lit up when the bus went by this evening.

[southsider_1036]

I've found two different sites regarding Corbett Centre development in Fredericton. The main Trinity site lists Tim Horton's not far from Eastside Mario's but riocan's site now lists St.Hubert which it use to say Tim's.
Also riocans also lists Bed Bath & Beyond where trinity's lists Best Buy & couple other stores. Riocan's lists couple other stores next to BB&B.So for now I think the Riocan's site might be the one to follow since I've noticed a billboard sign saying Bed Bath & Beyond coming soon next to the Corbett Centre sign the entrance into Costco/Costco Gasoline.

As for the northside area, there hasn't been any new stores since Canadian Tire opened up. Like I've read maybe Smartcentres are waiting for a new ramp to be builted going southbound on the ring road towards the Westmoreland St. Bridge. I hope one will be builted cause people driving from Brookside Mall or that surrounding area maybe going to Smartcentre Mall don't want to drive all the way up to Maple St. then up St. Mary's St. to get to it.It would be faster if a exit were at the Two Nation's interchange since a northbound exit is there going towards Brookside Mall.

As for Regent Mall, I was told that the Smitty's location is being transformed into Sport Chek. Sport Chek is expanding into the Smitty's location & as for People's, no confirmed store as been announced. I was told rumors like Old Navy might go in there but I told the person I read one time that ON may go into Corbett Centre but this hasn't been confirmed either. But as for Sport Chek,it looks like they're expanding in the former Smitty's location once was as Super Valu Supermarket.

Anyways I've posted a riocan outline of the Corbett Centre along with trinity's design plan below.




Trinity's site plan
http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7192/6960560701_bdeb556c48_z.jpg

Riocan's site plan

http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7050/6814447242_369f14a10e_b.jpg

Will post BB&B pic soon....

[OliverD]

Trinity no longer has an interest in the Corbett Centre.

[Freddypop]

I've found two different sites regarding Corbett Centre development in Fredericton. The main Trinity site lists Tim Horton's not far from Eastside Mario's but riocan's site now lists St.Hubert which it use to say Tim's.
Also riocans also lists Bed Bath & Beyond where trinity's lists Best Buy & couple other stores. Riocan's lists couple other stores next to BB&B.So for now I think the Riocan's site might be the one to follow since I've noticed a billboard sign saying Bed Bath & Beyond coming soon next to the Corbett Centre sign the entrance into Costco/Costco Gasoline.

As for the northside area, there hasn't been any new stores since Canadian Tire opened up. Like I've read maybe Smartcentres are waiting for a new ramp to be builted going southbound on the ring road towards the Westmoreland St. Bridge. I hope one will be builted cause people driving from Brookside Mall or that surrounding area maybe going to Smartcentre Mall don't want to drive all the way up to Maple St. then up St. Mary's St. to get to it.It would be faster if a exit were at the Two Nation's interchange since a northbound exit is there going towards Brookside Mall.

As for Regent Mall, I was told that the Smitty's location is being transformed into Sport Chek. Sport Chek is expanding into the Smitty's location & as for People's, no confirmed store as been announced. I was told rumors like Old Navy might go in there but I told the person I read one time that ON may go into Corbett Centre but this hasn't been confirmed either. But as for Sport Chek,it looks like they're expanding in the former Smitty's location once was as Super Valu Supermarket.

Anyways I've posted a riocan outline of the Corbett Centre along with trinity's design plan below.




Trinity's site plan
http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7192/6960560701_bdeb556c48_z.jpg

Riocan's site plan

http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7050/6814447242_369f14a10e_b.jpg

Will post BB&B pic soon....

Rio Can bought out Trinity's share in the Corbett Centre in 2010. Thus the Rio Can site is the one that you should place any faith in.

[KnoxfordGuy]

That sucks that Jack and Andy's closed. I liked that place :(

[OliverD]

Meh, it was alright. Nothing about it stood out though. Didn't help that it felt like you were eating at Wendy's either.

[KnoxfordGuy]

Yeah. The old Wendy's was always in the back of my mind lol

[kirjtc2]

http://notfoolinganybody.com/

If this site was still being updated Jack and Andy's would be a shoe-in.

[Taeolas]

Jack and Andy's and the Tim Arby's we have on Prospect. I'm surprised that wasn't on the site already, but I guess no one noticed the site to send it in in time. :)

[cj6286]

I suppose it's almost that time of year again, and I'm hesitant to say it: Road Work.

Does anyone know or heard of any closures? I heard a section of Regent Street and the bridge will be closed for upgrades. I also heard that they're shutting down the 13 route from the Brookside Mall to Kilarney Lake due to road upgrades from Heron Drive to the lake, and possibly the 18 Silverwood route as well.

[Freddypop]

Heard from a couple of sources that the old Acadien/SMT building downtown will be torn down this spring. Only Quiznos (front portion) will remain. Will become a parking lot....for now. That property and the adjacent parking lot both owned by Irving are well located and sizeable enough to put a nice building there. Perhaps something is up?:shrug:

[Taeolas]

I was just thinking last weekend that that building is a bit of an eye sore, and how nice it would be to see a tower of some sort go up there. It's about the only big space we have left downtown that we could put something big in.

It'll probably just be more infill buildings eventually, but we can hope can't we? In any case, losing that building won't be a loss.

[Taeolas]

Not really news here, but the CBC is reporting (http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/new-brunswick/story/2012/03/13/nb-fredericton-hotel-hilton-convention.html) that the Downtown Hilton hotel is still in the plans. Nothing really changed, other than they hope to break ground in 18-24 months.

[Freddypop]

Not really news here, but the CBC is reporting (http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/new-brunswick/story/2012/03/13/nb-fredericton-hotel-hilton-convention.html) that the Downtown Hilton hotel is still in the plans. Nothing really changed, other than they hope to break ground in 18-24 months.

I am skeptical at this point about these plans. Haven't heard from the developer since this was first proposed 2 years ago. I listened to the interview this AM on CBC with a city councillor who seemed uncomfortable and ill prepared during the interview. The same developer is now moving ahead with the construction of the Bishop Drive Hampton Inn. Gives them 18-24 months to figure out how to back out of the downtown deal.

[Pugsley]

Agreed, this project is most likely dead in the water. It is simply another sound bite for the politicians to make it look like progress when clearly it isn't happening. I have said it before, and will say it again. Politicians or public servants shouldn't talk about things unless they are standing next to the developer and the shovels are in the ground. It sends the wrong message to potential investors inside and outside the province when a big project is announced and nothing happens.

The projects on Saint John's waterfront, the Hilton in Fredericton, the second phase of Frederick's Square, the ever expanding airport and its "new" airlines, and some "big plans" for the northside that got a sound bite but have seen nothing transpire makes foreign investors wonder why nothing gets off the ground. It makes them wonder if it is government policy, economics, or demand that is hindering these projects. As a result, they prefer to take a "wait and see" approach to making their own investments in the region. We need to start restraining ourselves a bit on the talk if nothing is going to transpire action-wise.

[Fredboy]

I am hearing rumours from the Regent Mall that the new space under construction (accross from boosterjuice) is for an H & M store. Anyone else hearing this?

[kirjtc2]

The Vintage Moncton folks have started up a new group for Fredericton:

http://www.facebook.com/pages/Vintage-Fredericton/227644044000788

[Freddypop]

Heard from a couple of sources that the old Acadien/SMT building downtown will be torn down this spring. Only Quiznos (front portion) will remain. Will become a parking lot....for now. That property and the adjacent parking lot both owned by Irving are well located and sizeable enough to put a nice building there. Perhaps something is up?:shrug:

Update...Parking lot confirmed as this zoning request goes to PAC on Wednesday. Also height varience rezoning for the Hampton Inn on Bishop Drive adjacent to Kents

http://www.fredericton.ca/en/citygovernment/resources/Agenda-PAC.pdf

[Freddypop]

Agreed, this project is most likely dead in the water. It is simply another sound bite for the politicians to make it look like progress when clearly it isn't happening. I have said it before, and will say it again. Politicians or public servants shouldn't talk about things unless they are standing next to the developer and the shovels are in the ground. It sends the wrong message to potential investors inside and outside the province when a big project is announced and nothing happens.

The projects on Saint John's waterfront, the Hilton in Fredericton, the second phase of Frederick's Square, the ever expanding airport and its "new" airlines, and some "big plans" for the northside that got a sound bite but have seen nothing transpire makes foreign investors wonder why nothing gets off the ground. It makes them wonder if it is government policy, economics, or demand that is hindering these projects. As a result, they prefer to take a "wait and see" approach to making their own investments in the region. We need to start restraining ourselves a bit on the talk if nothing is going to transpire action-wise.

The city councillor was quoted in today's newspaper that the city has talked to the developer, DP Murphy, and that they intend to proceed with the downtown hotel in the next 18-24 months after completion of the Hampton Inn which they are also building. City has stated that after that time the land will revert to the city for a request for new proposals if the company does not proceed.

Note that this is coming from the city. If the developer was moving ahead as stated then he would be talking to the media. Silence from the developer states it all IMHO. As I mentioned earlier this is not going to proceed with this company. Funny how the councillor never mentioned the possibility of having to start the RFP process again when he gave his interview to CBC only a couple of days ago.

This hotel should have been opened by now. As it is the hotel will open 5 years later than envsioned if this company proceeds on the timeline they have layed out.

Unacceptable in my mind.

[Pugsley]

The city councillor was quoted in today's newspaper that the city has talked to the developer, DP Murphy, and that they intend to proceed with the downtown hotel in the next 18-24 months after completion of the Hampton Inn which they are also building. City has stated that after that time the land will revert to the city for a request for new proposals if the company does not proceed.

Agreed, unnaceptable. The city needs to start being a little more agressive when it comes to land development on property they control. If they are going to sell off land and give developers the rights to develop it using an RFP process then they need to have more forcefull terms and conditions.

For example, if the developer had the money to build a Hampton Inn then they had the funds to start on the downtown Hilton. The city should have had penalties for those who won the RFP to have the structure built as per plan and within a set timeframe. Since this property is supposed to be an addition to a city-owned conference centre and designed to drive economic growth, every month it is delayed is lost economic spin-off for the city.

Further, it simply looks bad when a large parcel of land sits vacant in the downtown core over a prolonged period of time. The city should start imposing penalties on property owners who have applied for zoning changes and accomodations for new construction with no progress being made. That means a hefty fine for the developers of Frederick Square II, The Hilton, and any other parcel of land where a building was given approval, the site prepped, and no work started.

[Freddypop]

Agreed, unnaceptable. The city needs to start being a little more agressive when it comes to land development on property they control. If they are going to sell off land and give developers the rights to develop it using an RFP process then they need to have more forcefull terms and conditions.

For example, if the developer had the money to build a Hampton Inn then they had the funds to start on the downtown Hilton. The city should have had penalties for those who won the RFP to have the structure built as per plan and within a set timeframe. Since this property is supposed to be an addition to a city-owned conference centre and designed to drive economic growth, every month it is delayed is lost economic spin-off for the city.

Further, it simply looks bad when a large parcel of land sits vacant in the downtown core over a prolonged period of time. The city should start imposing penalties on property owners who have applied for zoning changes and accomodations for new construction with no progress being made. That means a hefty fine for the developers of Frederick Square II, The Hilton, and any other parcel of land where a building was given approval, the site prepped, and no work started.

Yep...They could have at least directed the developer to proceed with the downtown hotel first before giving the city's green light to proceed with the Bishop Drive development. Keep in mind that the Bishop Drive development was changed to be on what is now Kent (Irving) land and I wonder if the influence Irving has is impacting on these projects.

[OliverD]

You guys are hilarious. :D

Further, it simply looks bad when a large parcel of land sits vacant in the downtown core over a prolonged period of time. The city should start imposing penalties on property owners who have applied for zoning changes and accomodations for new construction with no progress being made. That means a hefty fine for the developers of Frederick Square II, The Hilton, and any other parcel of land where a building was given approval, the site prepped, and no work started.

What you are proposing is a fantastic recipe for zero new development downtown. Due to the lengthy process of developing a property, it's entirely possible for situations to change drastically between the time they are first proposed and when construction is due to begin. Developers aren't going to accept the risk of what you are suggesting, especially in a market the size of Fredericton.

A building the size of Frederick Square II can't just be built in the hopes that it will be filled in. You need a good portion of it leased, or you're taking a big gamble (one which the banks may not want to be involved with).

Yep...They could have at least directed the developer to proceed with the downtown hotel first before giving the city's green light to proceed with the Bishop Drive development. Keep in mind that the Bishop Drive development was changed to be on what is now Kent (Irving) land and I wonder if the influence Irving has is impacting on these projects.

Please tell me you're kidding. The city doesn't have (nor should it have) the clout to interfere in that way. Just because the addition of a hotel in the downtown core is highly desirable isn't justification for stifling development in another area of the city.

Imagine the city tells the developer they can't build uptown until they start construction downtown. Even if they were able to make a compelling argument (which I doubt), what would happen if another developer proposed building a hotel in the same area? Are you going to say no to them as well? If so, on what grounds? After all, hotels already exist on Bishop Drive. What's the justification for preventing more to be developed?

The Irving angle is convenient as well. Seems like anytime something doesn't go the way we want it to in NB, we try to place at least some blame at the Irvings' feet. I'm not even sure what point you're trying to make there. :koko:

Look, I'm pretty much a free market kind of guy. I don't like the government interfering when it doesn't have to. At the same time, I give municipal governments a lot of leeway. I was a big supporter of the city buying the former Northstar property to expedite development there (had a letter published in Maclean's in Jan about that issue). But the things that you guys suggested are way over the line of what is acceptable.

I know all the theories about urban planning and how Fredericton should be developed. But let's not forget that we live in the real world, and what is good theoretically isn't always feasible or realistic.

[Freddypop]

You guys are hilarious. :D



What you are proposing is a fantastic recipe for zero new development downtown. Due to the lengthy process of developing a property, it's entirely possible for situations to change drastically between the time they are first proposed and when construction is due to begin. Developers aren't going to accept the risk of what you are suggesting, especially in a market the size of Fredericton.

A building the size of Frederick Square II can't just be built in the hopes that it will be filled in. You need a good portion of it leased, or you're taking a big gamble (one which the banks may not want to be involved with).



Please tell me you're kidding. The city doesn't have (nor should it have) the clout to interfere in that way. Just because the addition of a hotel in the downtown core is highly desirable isn't justification for stifling development in another area of the city.

Imagine the city tells the developer they can't build uptown until they start construction downtown. Even if they were able to make a compelling argument (which I doubt), what would happen if another developer proposed building a hotel in the same area? Are you going to say no to them as well? If so, on what grounds? After all, hotels already exist on Bishop Drive. What's the justification for preventing more to be developed?

The Irving angle is convenient as well. Seems like anytime something doesn't go the way we want it to in NB, we try to place at least some blame at the Irvings' feet. I'm not even sure what point you're trying to make there. :koko:

Look, I'm pretty much a free market kind of guy. I don't like the government interfering when it doesn't have to. At the same time, I give municipal governments a lot of leeway. I was a big supporter of the city buying the former Northstar property to expedite development there (had a letter published in Maclean's in Jan about that issue). But the things that you guys suggested are way over the line of what is acceptable.

I know all the theories about urban planning and how Fredericton should be developed. But let's not forget that we live in the real world, and what is good theoretically isn't always feasible or realistic.

Re the city and its clout.... I would argue that they do and that they have used it before to dictate where and when development would take place ie. 1980's Tricliffe (now Regent Mall) vs the Westcliffe megamall proposal in the uptown area. City placed a moratorium on mall development to try and force development in the downtown core. Don't get me wrong...I am not condoning that action to be repeated as that would be detrimental to development but I think your way off base stating that the city doesn't have the clout.. I think the question should be whether council would ever choose to use that clout and it appears...at least in this case...they choose not.

Re Irving....First you don't know me and I can assure you I don't blame all things on the Irvings. I admire them for what they have accomplished and personally feel that the province would be far worse off without them. Second...The original partners of the Hampton Inn proposal was a Woodstock businessman and DP Murphy. The land that was approved and purchased by that partnership for the Hampton Inn was in fact the lot adjacent to Classic Auto. If you've been reading the local paper lately then you'll know that DP Murphy dumped the businessman and entered into an agreement with Irving to build adjacent to Kents. Now they want to fast track that development at the expense of the downtown hotel.

My angle on the Irvings however is tied to that proposal and to the old bus depot downtown and the adjacent lot next to Brewbakers. That land is argueably the best piece if undeveloped land in the downtown core. Irving terminated leases and are now applying to the city to demolish the building and turn it into a parking lot. Prior to the convention centre complex going forward there were strong rumours that Irving was looking at developing those lands and one possibility was a hotel complex. Should the Hilton proposal die due to the uptown proposal scaring off DP Murphy don't be surprised if Irving develops something on their lands and includes a hotel component.

The role that the city should be playing at this time is to put new conditions on the downtown development. Either you build within a certain timeframe or you let someone else have "a kick at the can".

[cl812]

The city definately should have included atleast some scheduling requirements when they issued the RFP to avoid this sort of thing.

[OliverD]

Re the city and its clout.... I would argue that they do and that they have used it before to dictate where and when development would take place ie. 1980's Tricliffe (now Regent Mall) vs the Westcliffe megamall proposal in the uptown area. City placed a moratorium on mall development to try and force development in the downtown core. Don't get me wrong...I am not condoning that action to be repeated as that would be detrimental to development but I think your way off base stating that the city doesn't have the clout.. I think the question should be whether council would ever choose to use that clout and it appears...at least in this case...they choose not.

Perhaps they do have the clout but exercising it is highly unethical in my books. The city's job is to shape the development it wants via zoning. However, it needs to be fair and equitable in that process. Disallowing hotel development in an area that already has several hotels doesn't make any sense.

Re Irving....First you don't know me and I can assure you I don't blame all things on the Irvings. I admire them for what they have accomplished and personally feel that the province would be far worse off without them. Second...The original partners of the Hampton Inn proposal was a Woodstock businessman and DP Murphy. The land that was approved and purchased by that partnership for the Hampton Inn was in fact the lot adjacent to Classic Auto. If you've been reading the local paper lately then you'll know that DP Murphy dumped the businessman and entered into an agreement with Irving to build adjacent to Kents. Now they want to fast track that development at the expense of the downtown hotel.

I wasn't saying you in particular blame the Irvings for everything. It just seems like a popular sentiment in this province. :)

I was under the impression that land beside World Class Auto is also owned by Irving, but I could be wrong. Regardless, the new location seems to make more sense since it is more visible from the highway.

My angle on the Irvings however is tied to that proposal and to the old bus depot downtown and the adjacent lot next to Brewbakers. That land is argueably the best piece if undeveloped land in the downtown core. Irving terminated leases and are now applying to the city to demolish the building and turn it into a parking lot. Prior to the convention centre complex going forward there were strong rumours that Irving was looking at developing those lands and one possibility was a hotel complex. Should the Hilton proposal die due to the uptown proposal scaring off DP Murphy don't be surprised if Irving develops something on their lands and includes a hotel component.

Sounds a bit too conspiracy theorist for my tastes. ;) It would be great to see that land properly developed though.

The role that the city should be playing at this time is to put new conditions on the downtown development. Either you build within a certain timeframe or you let someone else have "a kick at the can".

I can agree with this, but realistically, it's only possible to do with city owned land. I'm not sure you could enforce that with privately owned land.

[OliverD]

In other development news, I noticed that they've cleared land between St. Marys Street and Brookside Drive, close to Killarney Lake. Anyone know what's going on there?

Also, the empty lot (hole in the ground, really) at the corner of St. Marys and Bowlen is now for sale. There was supposed to be a condo building constructed there.

[Freddypop]

In other development news, I noticed that they've cleared land between St. Marys Street and Brookside Drive, close to Killarney Lake. Anyone know what's going on there?

Also, the empty lot (hole in the ground, really) at the corner of St. Marys and Bowlen is now for sale. There was supposed to be a condo building constructed there.

Re the cleared land....thought I heard more read a few months ago that zoning passed for a new subdivision there

[Freddypop]

Came across this 1976 discussion re the Westcliffe megamall proposal versus downtown development. Thought I would share. Had either option proceeded as envisioned this would have completely changed the downtown especially the west end.

http://books.google.ca/books?id=gszqDPpuLW0C&pg=PA7&source=gbs_toc_r&cad=4#v=onepage&q&f=false

[Freddypop]

I was under the impression that land beside World Class Auto is also owned by Irving, but I could be wrong. Regardless, the new location seems to make more sense since it is more visible from the highway.



You are correct that the land noted above is Irving land but it was purchased by the Woodstock businessman and remains his property. The now proposed location next to Kent remains Kents (Irving) land. They are the ones before council requesting the rezoning change

On another note I read this AM that the city has launched a RFP for prosals to replace the Playhouse. It stated that they are looking in the downtown core and that two pieces of property are noted as interesting....1) across the street at the County Courthouse (next to the Crown Plaza) and 2) the old SMT property we have been discussing. The city and playhouse did a study in 2007 and it was determined that the difference in cost building new vs refurbishment of current were relatively the same. I recall in the 40-50 million dollar range. Anyway the RFP deadline is April 27. Should know details after that. Keep in mind that we are likely looking in the 5-10 year time frame for building completion.

[Pugsley]

Came across this 1976 discussion re the Westcliffe megamall proposal versus downtown development. Thought I would share. Had either option proceeded as envisioned this would have completely changed the downtown especially the west end.

Actually, in Ontario, many cities have pointed to Fredericton as being wise for NOT moving forward with such a development in the 70s and 80s as other cities did. In places like Brantford and Guelph these downtown enclosed malls destroyed sections of the city core and have since been abandoned with efforts to re-build their downtowns as walkable and desirable areas.

Many referenced Fredericton's opposition to such an enclosed mall as one of the main reasons the city still retains a somewhat vibrant cluster of activity in its downtown core. After Fredericton opposed the development, many other cities began to follow-suit...and today such developments are considered bad land-use for urban centres of such a size. So Fredericton was a bit of a Canadian urban planning pioneer back in the day. Yay! ;)

[Pugsley]

What you are proposing is a fantastic recipe for zero new development downtown. Due to the lengthy process of developing a property, it's entirely possible for situations to change drastically between the time they are first proposed and when construction is due to begin. Developers aren't going to accept the risk of what you are suggesting, especially in a market the size of Fredericton.

A building the size of Frederick Square II can't just be built in the hopes that it will be filled in. You need a good portion of it leased, or you're taking a big gamble (one which the banks may not want to be involved with).

Actually OliverD, in more progressive cities, even the size of Fredericton, development by-laws prevent the very type of thing that is happening in downtown. Today, I could come into Fredericton, by a parcel of land, propose a structure to council and have the zoning changed to accomodate it. Say a zoning change to permit a 15 floor commercial tower in the west end. Once I have the zoning approved, I can simply sit on the land and watch it appreciate in value as the only piece of land with a 15 floor zoning allowance.

Here are the problems caused by such an arrangement....

1) I basically have a unique piece of property in the city and since no air-right or density transfers are allowed in Fredericton, I have the ONLY piece of land zoned for 15 floors. As a developer, I am pretty much protected that NO other developer will enter the market and build another tower of this density unless they go through the same costly legal process I did OR...buy my piece of property for a premium.

2) While I may have to pay taxes for the property, the appreciation of the land value can very well outpace that of my annual taxes making it a decent land-holding investment. If all I have to pay are taxes and no fines or fees, owning a vacant piece of land becomes a pretty easy investment.

3) Every piece of land that sits vacant without even a basic one-level commercial structure detracts from the economic vitality of the CBD. Fredericton hasn't had any major ground level commercial space development in over 10 years within the CBD. If anything, older structures have been destroyed and replaced with single-use facilities (convention centre, parkades, apartment buildings, etc..) - causing the inventory to be reduced not increased. Less square footage means less business. Less business means less taxes and fewer people in the CBD...it is a snowball scenario...

4) The argument that a developer would never build a tower without securing a tenant first is a poor one...especially in the case of proposals in the CBD of Fredericton. The Frederick Square development site has sat idle for 23 years - as an example. Since that time the Knowledge Park has been developed up the hill, two government office structures have been built downtown, along with numerous other sites to accomodate the call-centre and tech boom in the nineties. There has been no excuse for a lack of adequate tenants to start this development. But again, developers haven't been given a financial incentive for breaking ground.

5) Finally, the availability of cheaper land in newer developing areas acts a deterant for investors looking at Fredericton. With land in the CBD owned and zoned for projects not being developed, potential investors are forced to look elsewhere. As a result, they are looking up the hill. Even if I wanted to buy a property and go through the zoning process as described above, I would be limited as no sites exist at a reasonable price in the CBD as they are all controlled by a handful of "developers".

And this is the issue at hand. The manner by which the city manages development does not place any guidelines or restrictions to ensure that none of the five scenarios above are avoided. In more progressive cities, a zoning change has restrictions based on development timelines. They have density transfers in place to promote development, and penalties in place to ensure land is not left vacant in core areas. If the city does not change this, the same pattern will continue. Land will be purchased, commercial space will continue to decrease, and development will continue to occur outside of the CBD.

[cj6286]

In other words, urban sprawl?

I wish the new apartment building on Queen Street incorporated mixed retail on the ground level, but since reading reports on flooding issues, it is understandable. Any new developments in the downtown should use the mixed retail/residential pattern. One or two floors of retail and the rest offices, apartments or condos. I'm sure if one developer started a project like this, others would follow and see the feasibility of such projects.

I'd hate to see the old SMT property follow the same fate as Frederick Square II, but I have to be honest, it would be better than looking at the building that's there now.

[Freddypop]

Actually, in Ontario, many cities have pointed to Fredericton as being wise for NOT moving forward with such a development in the 70s and 80s as other cities did. In places like Brantford and Guelph these downtown enclosed malls destroyed sections of the city core and have since been abandoned with efforts to re-build their downtowns as walkable and desirable areas.

Many referenced Fredericton's opposition to such an enclosed mall as one of the main reasons the city still retains a somewhat vibrant cluster of activity in its downtown core. After Fredericton opposed the development, many other cities began to follow-suit...and today such developments are considered bad land-use for urban centres of such a size. So Fredericton was a bit of a Canadian urban planning pioneer back in the day. Yay! ;)

Yes...Freddy made the right move re Westcliffe...however the downtown west end project was a misfire. If it had proceeded then we could very well be looking at a more vibrant downtown IMHO

[Pugsley]

Yes...Freddy made the right move re Westcliffe...however the downtown west end project was a misfire. If it had proceeded then we could very well be looking at a more vibrant downtown IMHO

It is the downtown project I was referring to. Back in the 70s and 80s mini "Eaton Centres" began to sprout up all over the place in the CBDs of smaller Canadian cities...similar to the proposal for Fredericton shown. They were disastrous. Today, few of them remain and those that are alive are sitting with high vacancy rates....not to mention a defunt Eatons....LOL...but seriously I miss that store. :(

These developments removed the street-front retail and replaced it with enclosed space. As enclosed malls became larger and more suburban, these downtown centres went empty and sat as giant vacant white elephants. When was the last time you completed all of your Christmas shopping at Highfield Square in Moncton or Brunswick Square in Saint John? ;)

Had Fredericton built the West End development, the same scenario would have occured. A bulk of a building in the CBD nobody wants to go to and is hard to re-develop. In Guelph, the building eventually became offices and the underused heritage buildings in the core are going through a rennaisance to create a more walkable small-town core. In Brantford, they have recently started to destroy the building in an effort to revive the downtown core. Both cities have referenced Fredericton as being wise NOT to have approved such a development in the past in order to preserve its heritage retail corridors.

[JHikka]

These developments removed the street-front retail and replaced it with enclosed space. As enclosed malls became larger and more suburban, these downtown centres went empty and sat as giant vacant white elephants. When was the last time you completed all of your Christmas shopping at Highfield Square in Moncton or Brunswick Square in Saint John? ;)

I have a very hard time believing that you just called Brunswick Square a white elephant. It's not the greatest mall, but it's not sitting empty by any means, and serves a vital purpose in Uptown Saint John.

[Pugsley]

In other words, urban sprawl?

I wish the new apartment building on Queen Street incorporated mixed retail on the ground level, but since reading reports on flooding issues, it is understandable. Any new developments in the downtown should use the mixed retail/residential pattern. One or two floors of retail and the rest offices, apartments or condos. I'm sure if one developer started a project like this, others would follow and see the feasibility of such projects.

I'd hate to see the old SMT property follow the same fate as Frederick Square II, but I have to be honest, it would be better than looking at the building that's there now.

Agreed, but I also understand that such developments ARE costly.

A simple solution for the SMT corner lot, while temporary, could be single level retail space. Take the big box model and bring it downtown and at street-front, not as a plaza. The pros of such a developemnt is that it adds more commercial street-front retail space at a lower cost. The second advantage is that it removes vacant space. The third is that the space can be RAW allowing for more variety and size of retail space options for businesses. Finally, if the development is easy to demolish, it means that the land can be developped in the future for a larger mixed-use space without significant costs for the developer. In essence, they could be using thse spaces today to generate revenues for future development IF they had the vision to make a smaller investment today in order to drive revenues for future use.

[Pugsley]

I have a very hard time believing that you just called Brunswick Square a white elephant. It's not the greatest mall, but it's not sitting empty by any means, and serves a vital purpose in Uptown Saint John.

I was in Saint John this past summer and other than the offices and the hotel the complex contains I did not see any major retail development making it a destination for shoppers. The majority of the shops act as services for the workers. That is what I was referring to. I did not see any major suburban mall chains present other than a Starbucks and I believe that is a new addition.

For years the building acted as a hub for sub-par service-focused retail traffic that drew people away from the Trinity Royal area. Now that Trinity Royal is seeing a rennaisance (which blew me away when I visited and could not have been happier with BTW), such an enclosed space is faced with a major dilemna. Does it attract a larger scale anchor to promote it as a shopping destination or continue to have a retail cluster that is service-oriented (i.e. banks, drycleaners, pharmacy, dollar store) for those working in the building.

This is why I refer to it as a White Elephant. Don't get me wrong, it has immense potential. However the gravitation towards service-focused retail space for existing tenants in the office twoers versus "destination" retailing is something the building needs to be able to address.

[Pugsley]

So, I threw together an example of a single level big-box style development to prove my point. It can even be build with a faux second story to add estethic presence. For the land-owner...take this as a free development concept I hope you will invest in. Such a development could be built within months and attract major tenants. In 10 years time, it can be demolished to build a larger mix-used structure. The point is...use your land...don't let it sit vacant!

http://united-thinking.com/King&Regent.png

[DisplacedHaligonian]

So, I threw together an example of a single level big-box style development to prove my point. It can even be build with a faux second story to add estethic presence. For the land-owner...take this as a free development concept I hope you will invest in. Such a development could be built within months and attract major tenants. In 10 years time, it can be demolished to build a larger mix-used structure. The point is...use your land...don't let it sit vacant!

http://united-thinking.com/King&Regent.png

at this point I'm game for any development that brings a starbucks downtown:haha:

[Freddypop]

So, I threw together an example of a single level big-box style development to prove my point. It can even be build with a faux second story to add estethic presence. For the land-owner...take this as a free development concept I hope you will invest in. Such a development could be built within months and attract major tenants. In 10 years time, it can be demolished to build a larger mix-used structure. The point is...use your land...don't let it sit vacant!

http://united-thinking.com/King&Regent.png

And I would like an Earl's or Milestones

[kirjtc2]

I was in Saint John this past summer and other than the offices and the hotel the complex contains I did not see any major retail development making it a destination for shoppers. The majority of the shops act as services for the workers. That is what I was referring to. I did not see any major suburban mall chains present other than a Starbucks and I believe that is a new addition.

Has Brunswick Square ever had a lot of suburban chains?

It's always come across to me as a larger, more grandiose version of Kings Place. KP may not be the greatest mall in town either, but I wouldn't call it dead.

[ErickMontreal]

:previous:
I concur with the fact that Brunswick Square is not quite the best destination for shoppers but recently it has significantly improved.

Bell, Rogers, Pseudio, La Source, Olsen Europe, Suy Shier, Bentley, Cole, Jay Set, Running Room, Starbucks ,English Butler, Booster Juice, Mcdo, Tim Hortons and Lawton are the main chains. Also, the vacancy rate is pretty low.

By a mile the best downtown shopping Center in New-brunswick IMO. On the other hand I got the point Pugsley is trying to make and I somewhat agree as well.

[cj6286]

You had me at Starbucks.

Does anyone know the website or contact info the projects going on at the old North Start property?

[corda]

Does anyone know whent the government offices will be moved from Centennial Building to Chancery Place across the street?

[cl812]

Noticed some activity at the Corbett Centre yesterday, work must be starting up there soon.

[Taeolas]

The warm temperatures we had this week will probably kick the construction season off early, even if we get a freeze/snow in the next few weeks. (Unlikely but not unheard of). I know my mom is eager for BB&B to open up down here, so the earlier they start the better as far as she's concerned.

Shifting gears a bit, I heard that someone else has tossed his hat in the ring for the Mayor race this may... and as soon as that happened, a Woodside campaign sign popped up at the end of the bridge. Talk about a quick reaction. (which is more than can be said about council normally. :P )

[Freddypop]

Noticed some activity at the Corbett Centre yesterday, work must be starting up there soon.

Last year construction on Costco started the 1st week in April so you are likely right about the Corbett Centre. Construction season is just around the corner:banana: