[DoteDote]

It's not a skyscraper, but a fun construction project to follow nonetheless.
website: http://www.thenmf.org/projects.htm

http://www.thenmf.org/images/monNav/monimage.gif
Now under construction in Atlantic Station, Midtown Atlanta.

http://img293.imageshack.us/img293/7845/milleniumgate06150801sgq7.jpg
Shot with Canon EOS DIGITAL REBEL (http://profile.imageshack.us/camerabuy.php?model=Canon+EOS+DIGITAL+REBEL&make=Canon) at 2008-06-15

[DoteDote]

Photo - 3/12/2007
http://img292.imageshack.us/img292/345/milleniummonument031207nm3.jpg

Photo - 5/18/2007
http://img208.imageshack.us/img208/2527/milleniumgate05180704sar4.jpg

[gttx]

Paris has the Arc de Triomphe overlooking the great Champs Elysees. Rome boasts the Arch of Constantine near the Colosseum, the Arch of Augustus in the Forum, and Bernini and Michelangelo's Porta del Popolo overlooking its great Piazza del Popolo entrance.

Great company to be sure, but none can boast a vista quite like that of Atlanta's newest monument - a retention pond! Napoleon and Caesar would be jealous...

[sprtsluvr8]

Paris has the Arc de Triomphe overlooking the great Champs Elysees. Rome boasts the Arch of Constantine near the Colosseum, the Arch of Augustus in the Forum, and Bernini and Michelangelo's Porta del Popolo overlooking its great Piazza del Popolo entrance.

Great company to be sure, but none can boast a vista quite like that of Atlanta's newest monument - a retention pond! Napoleon and Caesar would be jealous...

At the time of construction these monuments may have overlooked worse...probably raw sewage running through their arches. :) I don't have any idea if I'll like this thing when it's built, but I certainly won't judge it ahead of time and we should all keep in mind that when the famous landmarks mentioned were under construction they were not exactly beloved....

[ThrashATL]

25 years from now, the Millenium Gate will probably be the only thing to remind us that AS existed!

[BnaBreaker]

Go ATL! If done right, i'm sure this will look fantastic. The neighborhood in that photo looks like it has the makings of a really high quality place.

I just hope that the artistry and construction on this thing is very high quality. It irks me when developers try to mimic classic designs but use cheap materials. It ends up looking very tacky much of the time.

[StatenIslander237]

Go ATL! If done right, i'm sure this will look fantastic. The neighborhood in that photo looks like it has the makings of a really high quality place.

I just hope that the artistry and construction on this thing is very high quality. It irks me when developers try to mimic classic designs but use cheap materials. It ends up looking very tacky much of the time.

This is true, it'd be nice to see a new classic monument erected in this day and age. I really had never thought about that being a possibility before. Having an arch similar to the Washington Square Arch in Manhattan (not a copy!), would really cement Atlanta's reputation as the New York of the South!

[Tombstoner]

Having an arch similar to the Washington Square Arch in Manhattan (not a copy!), would really cement Atlanta's reputation as the New York of the South!

Yes, I think that would do it! :jester:

[Toxostoma Rufum]

This project is garbage. It's like Berlin building a half size replica of a pyramid in 1880. Why???

The left and right wings of this project are already built and they add nothing to the area. They're already chintzy and cracking.

The Arch is in the median...nothing passes through it!

All this Arch says is "Welcome to some craptastic mexican-labor-built housing, let's hide that with the diversion of a mock homage to bombast!"

Too bad that the criminal anarchist who tried to burn down the Atlantic Station condos isn't around today to burn down this hideous structure.

[Cosmoboy]

I think that pond looks hideous with the fence around it and a monument isn't going to help it anymore.

[Andrea]

I think that pond looks hideous with the fence around it and a monument isn't going to help it anymore.

You know, I have been re-thinking my views on this monument. Many of us -- and yes, I have been one of them -- have been quick to condemn this thing.

But let's consider a few points. First, look at what we had before. A rusting, contaminated brownfield that was going nowhere.

Secondly, no one has stopped me from going out there and building a monument of my own with my own money. At least the people who are doing this have the gumption to try, and to put their money (which is a whole lot more than I have) where their mouth is. So they don't need me sitting over here on the sidelines carping at them.

Thirdly -- and here I will draw on lessons from my own life -- there is no shame in not being the greatest. In every race somebody has to finish second, and usually there are those who come in third, fourth, fifth and right on down the line. We don't say those people are worthless. So why should we condemn this monument just because it's not as exciting or impressive or well-situated as some other monuments? A famous person whose name I cannot recall once said, “It’s important to know your limitations.” Just maybe this is a case in point.


“Those who can do; those who can’t criticize.” -- Author unknown.

[jmcgoblue]

I think Adrea is right...I'm going to try to withhold judgment until I see the completed project.

On another note, I HOPE TO GOD they are going to at least put a real fountain in that retention pond. It looks awful.

[PremierAtlanta]

You know, I have been re-thinking my views on this monument. Many of us -- and yes, I have been one of them -- have been quick to condemn this thing.

But let's consider a few points. First, look at what we had before. A rusting, contaminated brownfield that was going nowhere.

Secondly, no one has stopped me from going out there and building a monument of my own with my own money. At least the people who are doing this have the gumption to try, and to put their money (which is a whole lot more than I have) where their mouth is. So they don't need me sitting over here on the sidelines carping at them.

Thirdly -- and here I will draw on lessons from my own life -- there is no shame in not being the greatest. In every race somebody has to finish second, and usually there are those who come in third, fourth, fifth and right on down the line. We don't say those people are worthless. So why should we condemn this monument just because it's not as exciting or impressive or well-situated as some other monuments? A famous person whose name I cannot recall once said, “It’s important to know your limitations.” Just maybe this is a case in point.


“Those who can do; those who can’t criticize.” -- Author unknown.


That above, my good friends, is wisdom. I could not agree more.

[Tombstoner]

You know, I have been re-thinking my views on this monument. Many of us -- and yes, I have been one of them -- have been quick to condemn this thing.

But let's consider a few points. First, look at what we had before. A rusting, contaminated brownfield that was going nowhere.

Secondly, no one has stopped me from going out there and building a monument of my own with my own money. At least the people who are doing this have the gumption to try, and to put their money (which is a whole lot more than I have) where their mouth is. So they don't need me sitting over here on the sidelines carping at them.

Thirdly -- and here I will draw on lessons from my own life -- there is no shame in not being the greatest. In every race somebody has to finish second, and usually there are those who come in third, fourth, fifth and right on down the line. We don't say those people are worthless. So why should we condemn this monument just because it's not as exciting or impressive or well-situated as some other monuments? A famous person whose name I cannot recall once said, “It’s important to know your limitations.” Just maybe this is a case in point.


“Those who can do; those who can’t criticize.” -- Author unknown.

I think you are confusing two things, Andrea: the "accomplishment" of AS (which is, I think, an accomplishment) and the construction of a kitschy McMonument that bespeaks a cultural inferiority complex for all the world to see. I don't think anyone would deny that these people have a right to build anything they damn well please on whatever property they own (well, some people might, but I don't). On the other hand, it is part of Atlanta's landscape that everyone else has to live with--can't it be criticized without a MarketWorksian response of "uber-successful people have done this, you didn't, so stop sniveling"? Whether it's an exercise in "gumption" or just another exercise in tasteless schlock (Las Vegas probably thought it was too tacky) is up for debate.

On the plus side, the Arch is an absolutely spot-on bookend to the Olympic Torch viewing platform that rises majestically (as if in a dream, really) along the Connector. :haha: I think we can all take pride in this (everybody now: "We're Number One!", "We're Number One!",... )

[Andrea]

I think you are confusing two things, Andrea: the "accomplishment" of AS (which is, I think, an accomplishment) and the construction of a kitschy McMonument that bespeaks a cultural inferiority complex for all the world to see. I don't think anyone would deny that these people have a right to build anything they damn well please on whatever property they own (well, some people might, but I don't). On the other hand, it is part of Atlanta's landscape that everyone else has to live with--can't it be criticized without a MarketWorksian response of "uber-successful people have done this, you didn't, so stop sniveling"? Whether it's an exercise in "gumption" or just another exercise in tasteless schlock (Las Vegas probably thought it was too tacky) is up for debate.

Tombstoner, we can’t hide from this monument and sooner or later we’re going to have to own up to it. So we might as well take civic ownership of it and put the best spin possible on the situation. If it’s kitsch, at least it’s our own homegrown kitsch – as you say, it’s a worthy counterpart to certain other monumental elements of the urban fabric.

[Toxostoma Rufum]

I'm not waiting to hold judgment. I know the area, and I know this is a mistake on many many levels. Again, they've already built the side pieces, and they're junk. Just because private money is being used, does it make the decision to build this any less foolish? At least if public money was being used we might have a better shot at having this demolished in a generation. I could stomach the McArch in a better location, but this is silly where it is. The former monument to industry that was there was much better and actually fit in to the environs.

I was right about WOC...it is crap, but everyone wanted to hold judgment. Now we're stuck with a building in which only one of its four facades are acceptable (the one facing the aquarium - the ones facing the city and the park are as if Coke is mooning Atlanta.)

I'm completely with Tombstoner on this one, and how it smacks of immaturity. Hopefully The Atlantic will be as good as the models and no one will really notice this arch.

More importantly, any updates on the abandoned office space above the retail of AS? Is that ever going to fly or are they going to have to redo those floors?

[Tombstoner]

Tombstoner, we can’t hide from this monument and sooner or later we’re going to have to own up to it. So we might as well take civic ownership of it and put the best spin possible on the situation. If it’s kitsch, at least it’s our own homegrown kitsch – as you say, it’s a worthy counterpart to certain other monumental elements of the urban fabric.

I wish I had your pragmatism, Andrea. You're right, of course; tilting at windmills probably doesn't get us anywhere... But I do hope that when the Annuls of Atlanta in the Early 21st Century are written, somewhere a footnote will record that "not everybody thought this was a good idea." ;)

[MarketsWork]

I think you are confusing two things, Andrea: the "accomplishment" of AS (which is, I think, an accomplishment) and the construction of a kitschy McMonument that bespeaks a cultural inferiority complex for all the world to see.

My only response to the mountain-out-of-a-molehill thread is to wonder just who has the inferiority complex to which you refer. The presence of this rising monument to whatever does not make me feel the least bit defensive or insecure. It's just a building, and I suspect it will look a lot better than what used to sit there.

[ThrashATL]

On the plus side, the Arch is an absolutely spot-on bookend to the Olympic Torch viewing platform that rises majestically (as if in a dream, really) along the Connector.

Who owns that stupid thing and why is it still there? I think it needs to be the victim of an UNFORTUNATE cutting torch accident.

[sabino86]

Who owns that stupid thing and why is it still there? I think it needs to be the victim of an UNFORTUNATE cutting torch accident.

Meet me at the 3rd Street Tunnel at 3AM. Bring the supplies. ;)

[Tombstoner]

My only response to the mountain-out-of-a-molehill thread is to wonder just who has the inferiority complex to which you refer. The presence of this rising monument to whatever does not make me feel the least bit defensive or insecure.

Well, the function of forums are to make mountains-out-of-molehills, no? ;) I don't think the monument makes you (or anyone else) defensive and insecure. You're switching your causes-and-effects.

It's just a building, and I suspect it will look a lot better than what used to sit there.

Actually, a plot of dirt sits there now; I say we quit while we're ahead! :D

[Tombstoner]

Meet me at the 3rd Street Tunnel at 3AM. Bring the supplies. ;)

I'm there!!! :tup:

[gttx]

I'm there!!! :tup:

Likewise. I'll bring the dozers.

[ThrashATL]

Meet me at the 3rd Street Tunnel at 3AM. Bring the supplies. ;)

Like some of those steel cutting demolition charges they use on old bridges?

[(four 0 four)]

The neighborhood in that photo looks like it has the makings of a really high quality place.

Look closer!:)

I heard the justification of several projects be "Well, its better than what was there before." What is wrong with accepting only something of decent design and quality and not judge a project on what it replaced. The other great arches mentioned are not the commercial landmark that this developer hopes for...so far the others have resisted the urge to include exhibit and rooftop reception spaces. I've mentioned before that twirling bridesmaids on the roof of the arch does not exactly make it worthy of landmark status.

[ThrashATL]

Look closer!:)


I wish I had the cheap, vinyl awning contract for AS! I could retire.

[Sedaded]

Look closer!:)

I heard the justification of several projects be "Well, its better than what was there before." What is wrong with accepting only something of decent design and quality and not judge a project on what it replaced. The other great arches mentioned are not the commercial landmark that this developer hopes for...so far the others have resisted the urge to include exhibit and rooftop reception spaces. I've mentioned before that twirling bridesmaids on the roof of the arch does not exactly make it worthy of landmark status.

Design and quality are subjective measures. I think the arch will be a great addition to the area.

[ATLian12]

The arch is going to be 73 feet tall thats pretty tall. I will wait to judge. They better do somthing with the lake though.

[sprtsluvr8]

Maybe they will designate it a "Reflecting Retention Pond"

[ThrashATL]

Maybe they will designate it a "Reflecting Retention Pond"

With rubber ducks.

[sprtsluvr8]

Naturally. Live ducks wouldn't survive the toxic water hole.

[Turbosloth]

Monuments are nice, and I'm sure this one will be, too. But I have one issue here: Why are they building a Millennium Arch seven years after the fact? They have a monument without a cause, that's why. And these days if you have nothing to say, you say "Millennium."

[MidtownMile]

Monuments are nice, and I'm sure this one will be, too. But I have one issue here: Why are they building a Millennium Arch seven years after the fact? They have a monument without a cause, that's why. And these days if you have nothing to say, you say "Millennium."

I do agree with that. And in an area of town that could have other significance and importance more Atlanta-focused. I guess it depends on how they spin it and what they do with it. In the long run, 2007 will be very close to the millenium although it doesn't feel so now (just as 1907 would still be considered turn of the century to us).

[sprtsluvr8]

I do agree with that. And in an area of town that could have other significance and importance more Atlanta-focused. I guess it depends on how they spin it and what they do with it. In the long run, 2007 will be very close to the millenium although it doesn't feel so now (just as 1907 would still be considered turn of the century to us).

This structure is more than just an arch...it's a museum with several different displays, like historical and develpmental background of Atlantic Station, Atlanta, etc. and a sculpture garden. Visitors will be able to go inside the base of the arch, and I'm not sure but I think up into the arch as well. Check out the website...it really sounds interesting and more complex than I had imagined.

[STrek777]

This structure is more than just an arch...it's a museum with several different displays, like historical and develpmental background of Atlantic Station, Atlanta, etc. and a sculpture garden. Visitors will be able to go inside the base of the arch, and I'm not sure but I think up into the arch as well. Check out the website...it really sounds interesting and more complex than I had imagined.

I agree with you and I am glad to see that this is more than just an arch and I like the idea of putting a museum in at the base to show the evolution of AS and ATL. However, I still feel that this could have been placed in a more appropriate area of the city or they should have designed the area with a more classic Georgian feel. I do not like the McCondos that have gone up in "The Commons" area of AS. Atlanta has a rich and architecturally beautiful past and it is a shame that none of that was implemented in this area of AS.

[DoteDote]

Photo Update: Friday, June 15th

http://img67.imageshack.us/img67/5599/milleniumgate06150703snq3.jpg

http://img67.imageshack.us/img67/3308/milleniumgate06150702sgu2.jpg

[Buck]

Thanks for the pictures!

[Sketching]

Thanks for posting your photos Dote Dote.

I know many may think the Millenium Gate is a cheezy idea but there is another way to look at it. Since the gate is actually being constructed out of quality materials it will be one of the few structures still standing and aging well in a decade. Of course that excludes the towers and I am referring to the EIFS that dominates Atlantic Station.

[Chris Creech]

Now with the forms for the legs going up - you kinda get a feel for the scale of the thing now.

[ReallyTired]

... the construction of a kitschy McMonument that bespeaks a cultural inferiority complex for all the world to see...
I think that once it gets built that pretty much nobody will care or even for the most part know about it. It reminds me of a similar arch in Munich where the locals I talked with referred to it as "that" or the thing in the way of traffic or "what?" in response to my inquiry.

[DoteDote]

Photo Update: Sunday, July 8th

http://img107.imageshack.us/img107/263/milleniumgate07080701swg5.jpg
Shot with Canon EOS DIGITAL REBEL (http://profile.imageshack.us/camerabuy.php?model=Canon+EOS+DIGITAL+REBEL&make=Canon)

http://img107.imageshack.us/img107/9471/milleniumgate07080702sld0.jpg
Shot with Canon EOS DIGITAL REBEL (http://profile.imageshack.us/camerabuy.php?model=Canon+EOS+DIGITAL+REBEL&make=Canon)

[briantech]

I think it will be neat.

[Trae]

I like the monument and the way it was designed, but I just think Atlantic Station wasn't the best option. It would have looked amazing as the entrance to the Midtown Mile.

[DoteDote]

Photo Update: Sunday, July 22nd

http://img181.imageshack.us/img181/1505/milleniumgate07220702spx4.jpg
Shot with Canon EOS DIGITAL REBEL (http://profile.imageshack.us/camerabuy.php?model=Canon+EOS+DIGITAL+REBEL&make=Canon)

http://img181.imageshack.us/img181/9493/milleniumgate07220701sex9.jpg
Shot with Canon EOS DIGITAL REBEL (http://profile.imageshack.us/camerabuy.php?model=Canon+EOS+DIGITAL+REBEL&make=Canon)

[greg30127]

Maybe they should just have put a large statue of Shirley Franklin holding a golden torch there instead?

[ATLmangum]

Maybe they should just have put a large statue of Shirley Franklin holding a golden torch there instead?

That makes no since at all.

[cabasse]

regardless of how nice this might be, the context (both in atlantic station and the city as a whole) is completely wrong. it's such a waste of resources by someone who was really trying to make an impact, a difference.

[MarketsWork]

We'll see. The finished product might be better than you think, and the context might look a lot different after Atlantic Station builds out. Real, farsighted vision is a rare thing -- something which I certainly don't have. But those few who do possess it never cease to amaze me when their visions come to life over time. I am limited by what I can see right now, though I am learning to wait before I pass judgement.

[RobMidtowner]

I'm generally ambivalent about this monument but one thing I will say is that at least it will bring activity to an otherwise bland park surrounding a retention pond. :shrug:

[austlar1]

Maybe the troop can have a victory march through that thing after we win the War on Terrorism!

[DoteDote]

Pics from Saturday, August 25th:

http://img475.imageshack.us/img475/5008/milleniumgate08250702swb6.jpg
Shot with Canon EOS DIGITAL REBEL (http://profile.imageshack.us/camerabuy.php?model=Canon+EOS+DIGITAL+REBEL&make=Canon)

http://img475.imageshack.us/img475/3739/milleniumgate08250701ssx8.jpg
Shot with Canon EOS DIGITAL REBEL (http://profile.imageshack.us/camerabuy.php?model=Canon+EOS+DIGITAL+REBEL&make=Canon)

http://img475.imageshack.us/img475/7480/milleniumgate08250703sll5.jpg
Shot with Canon EOS DIGITAL REBEL (http://profile.imageshack.us/camerabuy.php?model=Canon+EOS+DIGITAL+REBEL&make=Canon)

[ATLaffinity]

I'm generally ambivalent about this monument but one thing I will say is that at least it will bring activity to an otherwise bland park surrounding a retention pond. :shrug:

i know you're trying to find something nice to say, but how would it bring activity?

Toxostoma is right. It's garbage.

if they wanted to get all sentimental, they had all the AS history to work with and they choose this silliness.

[ThrashATL]

I say leave the monument bare concrete like it looks now in that last pic and it'll fit the true look & feel of AS.

[sprtsluvr8]

i know you're trying to find something nice to say, but how would it bring activity?

Toxostoma is right. It's garbage.

if they wanted to get all sentimental, they had all the AS history to work with and they choose this silliness.

If I remember correctly, AS history will be an element of the museum display inside the monument...as well as Atlanta, Georgia, and how it all plays a part in U.S. history.

[MarketsWork]

Funny how so many of us sit around here measuring Atlantic Station's endless shortcomings against our vast resources of refined and worldly taste, while prestigious banks and law firms continue to eagerly relocate their offices there. Just proves that those old hicks must not care about their public images, since they obviously know nothing about the world or the arts or architecture. Dale Carnegie got it right when he said "Any fool can criticize, condemn, and complain - and most fools do."

It takes a whole mixture of different flavors to make a real city, and it also takes time for them to blend together. Atlantic Station is young, folks -- and it's just getting started. There's not a city in America that wouldn't love to have a new development like Atlantic Station in its boundaries -- except here, in the land of the spoiled rotten. Let's be thankful for our great fortune -- and give it some time!

[MarketsWork]

If I remember correctly, AS history will be an element of the museum display inside the monument...as well as Atlanta, Georgia, and how it all plays a part in U.S. history.

And wasn't there some mention of the monument being available to rent for special events? The skyline views from the top would provide a great atmosphere. When AS gets built out, I think this monument may turn out a whole lot better than many people think.

[Fiorenza]

I was never a fan of AS, but hope you guys are right about the arch. It's also amazing how they've attracted the banks and law firms, not to mention top-end resident rappers at AS12 and all the other buzz. However, the place does have sort of a Dr. Jekyll a & Mr. Hyde persona. OK that's all.

[Tombstoner]

Funny how so many of us sit around here measuring Atlantic Station's endless shortcomings against our vast resources of refined and worldly taste, while prestigious banks and law firms continue to eagerly relocate their offices there. Just proves that those old hicks must not care about their public images, since they obviously know nothing about the world or the arts or architecture...

I think it's funny that you think because a prestigious company or bank moves to Atlanta it means that Atlanta is an amazing place. Ummm...I think they come here to make money rather than to be proudly associated with the city. Just a hunch.

PS. Another thought--they can put an electronic streamer on top of the Arche d'IKEA and post up-to-the-minute specials at Target and Publix.

[Fiorenza]

Place some water-spouting frogs around the perimeter of the pond. That would be awesome!

[ATLaffinity]

Funny how so many of us sit around here measuring Atlantic Station's endless shortcomings against our vast resources of refined and worldly taste, while prestigious banks and law firms continue to eagerly relocate their offices there.

Yeah, it's so funny that we critique developments on a message board dedicated to critiquing developments.

Correct me if I'm wrong but the "prestigious" banks and law firms (nevermind there are no "pretigious" law firms at AS) didn't finance this project.

it still cracks me up that they came up with something to make AS even worse. they should have animatronic reenactments of Atlantic Steel history (for all I know, this is planned).

[ThrashATL]

AS will likely continue forever to be a work in progress, being redone ad nauseum. Never time to do something right but there's always time to do it over!

[Tombstoner]

Place some water-spouting frogs around the perimeter of the pond. That would be awesome!

Maybe they could be playing fiddles (or poker)! How cool! :banana:

[Tombstoner]

Toxostoma is right. It's garbage.



ATLaffinity--c'mon, I want credit for first decrying this assinine idea even before we knew it was garbage. :haha:

[MarketsWork]

I think it's funny that you think because a prestigious company or bank moves to Atlanta it means...

I was referring to those banks and law firms moving to Atlantic Station, not just to Atlanta. With all the choices of locations in Atlanta, many are specifically choosing Atlantic Station over readily available locations in Midtown and Downtown which many here would deem vastly superior. My point is that these are very smart people, and they are looking into the future at what a built-out Atlantic Station will become -- and that they like what they see.

And my "over-arching" (Sorry!) argument is that we cannot judge the context of a large, multi-block project like Atlantic Station until enough of it is built to have, well... context. Altantic Station looks new and incomplete because it is brand new and still very incomplete. But I suspect the whole thing -- arch included -- might look a lot different when it is built out and matured.

[Tombstoner]

I was referring to those banks and law firms moving to Atlantic Station, not just to Atlanta. With all the choices of locations in Atlanta, many are specifically choosing Atlantic Station over readily available locations in Midtown and Downtown which many here would deem vastly superior. My point is that these are very smart people, and they are looking into the future at what a built-out Atlantic Station will become -- and that they like what they see.

And my "over-arching" (Sorry!) argument is that we cannot judge the context of a large, multi-block project like Atlantic Station until enough of it is built to have, well... context. Altantic Station looks new and incomplete because it is brand new and still very incomplete. But I suspect the whole thing -- arch included -- might look a lot different when it is built out and matured.

My own beef is not with AS (which is fine as a live-work-play district), it's with the pretentiousness and derivativeness of the arch. It's not as if Atlanta gets to make dozens of big-ticket cultural statements every year and this one just happens to be a clunker -- this is by far the most high-profile "public art" project in the works and probably will be for years to come. Yes, I understand that it's privately-funded and people can build any crap they want on their land. I actually support that and would even support their right to build a 50-foot statue of Snoopy (though, that, at least might have irony going for it). I just wish we had more sophisticated/visionary philanthropists who wanted to lavish their money on something a little less cheesy.

Might it eventually fit in? Quite honestly, I hope the rest of AS doesn't mature to be so mediocre that this McMonument actually looks it it belongs there.

[ATLaffinity]

I actually support that and would even support their right to build a 50-foot statue of Snoopy (though, that, at least might have irony going for it).
:jester: this is what's so funny about talking about this POS.

you propose the most absurd structure imaginable but then you immediately realize that your proposal (meant to be funny) was better than the all too real gate.

Snoopy *would* be better. Koonsesque.

above-mentioned frogs spitting water would be better. whimsical.

even the ticker of Publix specials on top sounds like some SCAD installation. i'd go to see it.

[Harry Cane]

Water spitting frogs? Rio Redux?

[ThrashATL]

Water spitting frogs? Rio Redux?

That would be AWESOME! 10-15 or even 20 foot high frogs spitting Bellagio style water shows....

[jayhawk]

Funny how so many of us sit around here measuring Atlantic Station's endless shortcomings against our vast resources of refined and worldly taste, while prestigious banks and law firms continue to eagerly relocate their offices there. Just proves that those old hicks must not care about their public images, since they obviously know nothing about the world or the arts or architecture. Dale Carnegie got it right when he said "Any fool can criticize, condemn, and complain - and most fools do."

It takes a whole mixture of different flavors to make a real city, and it also takes time for them to blend together. Atlantic Station is young, folks -- and it's just getting started. There's not a city in America that wouldn't love to have a new development like Atlantic Station in its boundaries -- except here, in the land of the spoiled rotten. Let's be thankful for our great fortune -- and give it some time!

YES!!!

[kardon]

Funny how so many of us sit around here measuring Atlantic Station's endless shortcomings against our vast resources of refined and worldly taste, while prestigious banks and law firms continue to eagerly relocate their offices there. Just proves that those old hicks must not care about their public images, since they obviously know nothing about the world or the arts or architecture. Dale Carnegie got it right when he said "Any fool can criticize, condemn, and complain - and most fools do."

It takes a whole mixture of different flavors to make a real city, and it also takes time for them to blend together. Atlantic Station is young, folks -- and it's just getting started. There's not a city in America that wouldn't love to have a new development like Atlantic Station in its boundaries -- except here, in the land of the spoiled rotten. Let's be thankful for our great fortune -- and give it some time!

I agree !!!!

[mayhem]

I strongly support a Snoopy monument.

[sprtsluvr8]

Yeah, it's so funny that we critique developments on a message board dedicated to critiquing developments.

Correct me if I'm wrong but the "prestigious" banks and law firms (nevermind there are no "pretigious" law firms at AS) didn't finance this project.

it still cracks me up that they came up with something to make AS even worse. they should have animatronic reenactments of Atlantic Steel history (for all I know, this is planned).

If you'll take a minute to read up on the project then you won't have to wonder about the plans...anyone would be skeptical about such a project without knowing the details.

http://www.thenmf.org/projects.htm

[Terminus]

Oops

[Terminus]

Place some water-spouting frogs around the perimeter of the pond. That would be awesome!

Excellent idea - especially if the frogs were placed so they appeared to float on the water! I also think that a big white hexagonal geodesic sphere at the end near the blue corrugated metal Ikea would be neat to. Ivy could be planted to eventually grow over it, and bamboo could ring the edge of the park along 17th Street.

Can you imagine how people would travel from around the world to see such a place? It would create an instant destination;)

[CityFan]

If I remember correctly, AS history will be an element of the museum display inside the monument...as well as Atlanta, Georgia, and how it all plays a part in U.S. history.
I don't think AS history is that important in our life. It's just a small place and the history itself records the decline of our steel industry and empire falling from throne.

[Tombstoner]

Excellent idea - especially if the frogs were placed so they appeared to float on the water! I also think that a big white hexagonal geodesic sphere at the end near the blue corrugated metal Ikea would be neat to. Ivy could be planted to eventually grow over it, and bamboo could ring the edge of the park along 17th Street.

Can you imagine how people would travel from around the world to see such a place? It would create an instant destination;)

The likes of which the world has never seen! Everybody now:

it's a world of laughter, a world or tears
its a world of hopes, its a world of fear
theres so much that we share
that its time we're aware
its a small world after all

(chorus)
its a small world after all
its a small world after all
its a small world after all
its a small, small world

There is just one moon and one golden sun
And a smile means friendship to everyone.
Though the mountains divide
And the oceans are wide
It's a small small world

(chorus) :upload_71700:

[Toxostoma Rufum]

Funny how so many of us sit around here measuring Atlantic Station's endless shortcomings against our vast resources of refined and worldly taste, while prestigious banks and law firms continue to eagerly relocate their offices there. Just proves that those old hicks must not care about their public images, since they obviously know nothing about the world or the arts or architecture. Dale Carnegie got it right when he said "Any fool can criticize, condemn, and complain - and most fools do."

It takes a whole mixture of different flavors to make a real city, and it also takes time for them to blend together. Atlantic Station is young, folks -- and it's just getting started. There's not a city in America that wouldn't love to have a new development like Atlantic Station in its boundaries -- except here, in the land of the spoiled rotten. Let's be thankful for our great fortune -- and give it some time!

1.) Of course banks and law firms are going to go to AS if it makes financial sense. This Arch is completely irrelevant.
2.) The Arch isn't being built by old hicks, it's being built by an international architectural group. Heaven knows why they're doing it. I suppose they're doing this for practice for later projects: it looks like they need the practice.
3.) Icon and Element and Ikea and a Super Target are flavors that have been designed not to blend with anything.
4.) There are cities that would not welcome AS for various valid reasons. I would say that any third tier city would be gagging for an AS, however (I am not claiming that ATL is third-tier).
5.) No need to give it time, the first stages of the Arch development have been built for sometime (The statues). They are cheesy and are already cracking from using inferior materials.

I say all this while I like the retail and corporate parts of AS very much, as well as the Novare towers. Everything down by the pond or in Beezerville is really bad. AS is going to get better and better...east of State Street.

I think of it as two distinct districts, and they don't interact well.

[ThrashATL]

The one thing everyone can agree on about AS is that it's better than what was there, an industrial wasteland eyesore. Now we have a commercial wasteland eyesore, a step up.

[LouisianaCharm]

i cant wait until this entire thing is built out.....................then maybe i will actually appreciate it, but for now.........its not what i dreamed of..

[sprtsluvr8]

I don't think AS history is that important in our life. It's just a small place and the history itself records the decline of our steel industry and empire falling from throne.

Notice that isn't the only history I mentioned...AS history, Atlanta history, Georgia and U.S. history. And once again, it's just one person's opinion that AS history is not that important. I think it's pretty important with the environmental cleanup and what has replaced a brownfield on that spot...

Did you or any of the harsh critics of the monument take time to read about it? It doesn't sound like you did.

[smArTaLlone]

The one thing everyone can agree on about AS is that it's better than what was there, an industrial wasteland eyesore. Now we have a commercial wasteland eyesore, a step up.

An eyesore that's packed with suburbanites every weekend. I guess its Old Navy and Guess that's attracting them. :shrug:

[Tombstoner]

Spurtslover asks: "Did you or any of the harsh critics of the monument take time to read about it? It doesn't sound like you did..."

I suspect most critics know all about the background to the monument and just aren't as easily impressed as he is (but God bless him--folks like him make Atlanta the world-class city that it is), but that's beside the point. Critics of the McMonument are, by and large, not critical of AS, but of the aesthetics of the monument itself.

[ATLaffinity]

Did you or any of the harsh critics of the monument take time to read about it? It doesn't sound like you did.

Oh, yes, let's read about the monument...

The Millennium Gate will first and foremost be a work of art, but also importantly, a cutting edge educational tool. We will be concentrating on a three-fold story: First, the peaceful accomplishment of the last 2000 years, second, the ascension of the United States within that continuum and, third, the city and how, because of a different credo than other regional cities, Atlanta became a giant, globally important city in a relatively short period of time.

that's so disingenuous on so many levels. i can only hope they were just retroactively trying to justify this crap.

btw, what is our "credo"? i hope it's better than our "O" slogan.

...Atlanta was unusual in the South having founding families whose credo was what was good for Atlanta was good for business. (Compare this to other southern cities whose credos were what was good for business was good for the city.)

http://www.farfromneutral.com/exodus/wp-content/uploads/2007/03/o_rly.jpg

[sprtsluvr8]

Ok, so now you have a problem with the wording on the monument's website? Give me a friggin break...it's such an immature position to take on a structure that is UNDER CONSTRUCTION and nowhere near complete. And now the wording in part of the description is disingenuous. There were pages of information that you didn't post here. Was it all disingenuous?

Some of these responses make me sick. I'm waiting to see the monument some of you come up with that puts this one to shame...sorry, Snoopy wouldn't quite do it.

How about a little civic pride and support for an attemt to add a lasting landmark to the city of Atlanta? I always hear complaints that there isn't an identifying structure for the city - yet when one that could be just that is being constructed, there are yet more complaints that it sucks. I guess when the St. Louis Arch was proposed it drew the same kind of commentary.

[ATLaffinity]

I guess when the St. Louis Arch was proposed it drew the same kind of commentary.that takes the cake. i can't top that. The Mileniuum Gate and the Gateway Arch by Eero Saarinen

[Tombstoner]

that takes the cake. i can't top that. The Mileniuum Gate and the Gateway Arch by Eero Saarinen

:previous: And we wonder why Atlanta is Atlanta...

[sprtsluvr8]

that takes the cake. i can't top that. The Mileniuum Gate and the Gateway Arch by Eero Saarinen

You can't because you weren't around when it was proposed and constructed in St. Louis. There are still people there who despise it, even though it has become a worldwide symbol of the city of St. Louis. By the way, no one compared the two structures, although you apparently interpreted my statement as though I did compare them. I simply made a point that a structure as special as the Arch was chastised by some idiots in its planning stages.

And your snotty reply is exactly the kind I was referring to. I'm trying to share information and educate, while you're trying to refute every positive statement that has been made. It takes years for a new structure like this one to gain respect...and if this monument does become something special in the future, you will simply be remembered as one of the imbeciles who derided it before it even had a chance. That's always an intelligent position - laugh at and make fun of something before it is even in existence. Good job.

[ATLaffinity]

and if this monument does become something special in the future, you will simply be remembered as one of the imbeciles who derided it before it even had a chance. That's always an intelligent position - laugh at and make fun of something before it is even in existence. Good job.
you stay classy, sportsluvr! nice ad hominem attack.

i wouldn't worry about anybody being "remembered" for any reason regarding MG. mercifully, it hasn't even received press in Atlanta, let alone beyond the city.

[STrek777]

you stay classy, sportsluvr! nice ad hominem attack.

i wouldn't worry about anybody being "remembered" for any reason regarding MG. mercifully, it hasn't even received press in Atlanta, let alone beyond the city.

You know I didn't even think about it until you just mentioned it. There hasn't been any press around the Millennium Arch. Now that is funny! :haha:

Sportsluvr can say what ever but I have been following this Monument since it was proposed. I DO NOT LIKE IT or rather I do not like it in AS. It is surrounded by stucco homes made very cheaply. I’ll venture as far to say that there is nothing in the commons that even begins to compare to the pleasant original renderings of that area. It is a cheap McArea that will now have a cheap McMonument next to an elaborate retention pond. The monument doesn’t even have the same sightlines as it used to. It would have made more sense to keep the monument on the State St side and the Museum on the Village St side of the park. That way you keep the dominate sightlines of the monument that would at least give it a look of importance. Now it looks like an arch that was just put there because they had no where else to put it.

Have a monument that stands for peace and justice is fine putting a classical European style arch in AS not so fine.

Grant Park is long overdue for an extreme make over and already houses the Cyclorama and one of the oldest zoos in the county. This would have made a fantastic entry to the north end of the park. After all, Piedmont Park has its grand 14th street entrance with a huge gate statue and staircase. If the developers had gone to the city and said we want to revitalize Grant Park and build a monument as a grand symbol for Atlanta’s accomplishments I don’t think there would be much of an issue. Shirley’s eyes would have glistened at the prospect of using the monument to persuade developers to go in and overhaul the Grant Park area.

Instead we get a square peg that has been shoved into a round hole. Over time people aren’t going to look at it and go “how majestic” they’re going to look at it and say “it looks crooked”. Once all is said and done will each individual element look stately… maybe? As a whole will it make sense? Not in a millennium. ;)

[sprtsluvr8]

you stay classy, sportsluvr! nice ad hominem attack.

i wouldn't worry about anybody being "remembered" for any reason regarding MG. mercifully, it hasn't even received press in Atlanta, let alone beyond the city.


What else does your crystal ball tell you Dark Lady? Good God...

[sprtsluvr8]

You know I didn't even think about it until you just mentioned it. There hasn't been any press around the Millennium Arch. Now that is funny! :haha:

Sportsluvr can say what ever but I have been following this Monument since it was proposed. I DO NOT LIKE IT or rather I do not like it in AS. It is surrounded by stucco homes made very cheaply. I’ll venture as far to say that there is nothing in the commons that even begins to compare to the pleasant original renderings of that area. It is a cheap McArea that will now have a cheap McMonument next to an elaborate retention pond. The monument doesn’t even have the same sightlines as it used to. It would have made more sense to keep the monument on the State St side and the Museum on the Village St side of the park. That way you keep the dominate sightlines of the monument that would at least give it a look of importance. Now it looks like an arch that was just put there because they had no where else to put it.

Have a monument that stands for peace and justice is fine putting a classical European style arch in AS not so fine.

Grant Park is long overdue for an extreme make over and already houses the Cyclorama and one of the oldest zoos in the county. This would have made a fantastic entry to the north end of the park. After all, Piedmont Park has its grand 14th street entrance with a huge gate statue and staircase. If the developers had gone to the city and said we want to revitalize Grant Park and build a monument as a grand symbol for Atlanta’s accomplishments I don’t think there would be much of an issue. Shirley’s eyes would have glistened at the prospect of using the monument to persuade developers to go in and overhaul the Grant Park area.

Instead we get a square peg that has been shoved into a round hole. Over time people aren’t going to look at it and go “how majestic” they’re going to look at it and say “it looks crooked”. Once all is said and done will each individual element look stately… maybe? As a whole will it make sense? Not in a millennium. ;)

Oh, okay...YOU don't like it...Stop the construction! Two idiots in the skyscraperpage forum don't like the monument!

You're such a scholar...

[mayhem]

If you're opinion differs that much, just let each other be. This is a warning.

[Toxostoma Rufum]

Ok, so now you have a problem with the wording on the monument's website? Give me a friggin break...it's such an immature position to take on a structure that is UNDER CONSTRUCTION and nowhere near complete. And now the wording in part of the description is disingenuous. There were pages of information that you didn't post here. Was it all disingenuous?

Some of these responses make me sick. I'm waiting to see the monument some of you come up with that puts this one to shame...sorry, Snoopy wouldn't quite do it.

How about a little civic pride and support for an attemt to add a lasting landmark to the city of Atlanta? I always hear complaints that there isn't an identifying structure for the city - yet when one that could be just that is being constructed, there are yet more complaints that it sucks. I guess when the St. Louis Arch was proposed it drew the same kind of commentary.

If MG is going to be so great for Atlanta, they had better restrict the roads around it to one lane a side since it's bound to attract great foot traffic from admiring Tech and GSU students. We need to protect these frail pedestrians from the evil horseless carriages.

Weren't such arches built originally as memorials to Military Triumph rather than a vague Up With People excercise? That's what really irks me about this project.

[Tombstoner]

I think it's incredibly unintelligent to say "Years from now, people will love this" or "They all laughed at Christopher Columbus (or the St. Louis Arch), and they were wrong...therefore, if you are critical of something now, you must be wrong too." Both of those statements are great examples of fallacious reasoning.

No one knows how the Arch d'IKEA is going to be thought of in 10, 20 or 50 years. Maybe people will love it or maybe it will be a laughingstock -- nobody knows, so why use that as an argument??? It would be just as silly to say "Gee, it looks great now, but in the future, people are going to hate it." :koko: Of course, you can think that, but do you really think that's an argument?

The other argument, comparing it to the St Louis Arch, is even worse. It assumes that somehow the two edifices are somehow similar in some significant respect and thus public reaction to them will be similar. They are different edifices, we are different publics, one is genuinely original (whether you like it or not--I happen to) and the other is a hoary imitation of much-better known (and genuinely monumental) monuments. Why would anyone even compare them? Why not compare a WalMart to the Taj Mahal? They both occupy space... :koko:

[sprtsluvr8]

If you're opinion differs that much, just let each other be. This is a warning.

Ok, it's not so much a difference of opinion...I don't have an issue with these guys not appreciating this monument. It's their snide and catty remarks about it each time something positive is posted. I try to point out something good about the monument...they tear down whatever I've posted.

[sprtsluvr8]

I think it's incredibly unintelligent to say "Years from now, people will love this" or "They all laughed at Christopher Columbus (or the St. Louis Arch), and they were wrong...therefore, if you are critical of something now, you must be wrong too." Both of those statements are great examples of fallacious reasoning.

No one knows how the Arch d'IKEA is going to be thought of in 10, 20 or 50 years. Maybe people will love it or maybe it will be a laughingstock -- nobody knows, so why use that as an argument??? It would be just as silly to say "Gee, it looks great now, but in the future, people are going to hate it." :koko: Of course, you can think that, but do you really think that's an argument?

The other argument, comparing it to the St Louis Arch, is even worse. It assumes that somehow the two edifices are somehow similar in some significant respect and thus public reaction to them will be similar. They are different edifices, we are different publics, one is genuinely original (whether you like it or not--I happen to) and the other is a hoary imitation of much-better known (and genuinely monumental) monuments. Why would anyone even compare them? Why not compare a WalMart to the Taj Mahal? They both occupy space... :koko:

Moderator: see? :previous: snide and catty...

Dumbstoner, if you can read my post, you'll see that what you've come up with isn't AT ALL what I wrote. What is unintelligent is to criticize someone's words when you apparently haven't bothered to read them. I've already said that I wasn't comparing the Arch to this monument. And I totally agree with your statement that "no one knows what this monument will be in the coming years". That is the exact point I made many posts ago.

[Tombstoner]

The first argument was MarketWorks, the second is yours.

[Tombstoner]

:previous: I'm sure the moderator knows the difference between criticizing the validity of an argument and calling names :rolleyes:

[ThrashATL]

When the moderator has a name like "Mayhem" you can bet he'll tolerate a bunch before he dropkicks! :haha:

[sprtsluvr8]

Both of those statements are great examples of fallacious reasoning.

Did you mean felatious? Are you flirting with me again? I told you no every time!

[Tombstoner]

Did you mean felatious? Are you flirting with me again? I told you no every time!

Um... no... I mean't "fallacious." I think you could find it in a dictionary, but if you can't, it's the adjectival form for "logical premises that are based in error or whose connection is unwarranted." Glad to help.

[gttx]

This argument is ridiculous. If anyone has anything meaningful to say, then I'm entirely supportive of discourse. Otherwise, the massive negativity is annoying, and the outlandish, illogical responses are even more annoying. I think everyone here may benefit from a few courses in architecture history, logic, and rhetoric.

[STrek777]

This argument is ridiculous. If anyone has anything meaningful to say, then I'm entirely supportive of discourse. Otherwise, the massive negativity is annoying, and the outlandish, illogical responses are even more annoying. I think everyone here may benefit from a few courses in architecture history, logic, and rhetoric.

Hey that's not fair! We definatly have rhetoric down to a science. :haha:

Like I said I love the idea of a monument for Justice and Peace. I even like the idea of the museum they are putting in.

I am not so in love with the way they are determined to squeze it all into one tiny spot. Be honest the monument does look crooked now as you approach it from Midtown on 17th. Also nothing and I mean nothing in the commons compaments the structure. I don't think I'm beeing naysayer I think I am beeing a realist. Look at any other arches in the world and you will see what I'm talking about.

It's not about negative or posative, right or wrong, it is realism and there are plenty of historical architectural examples out there to justify my point of view. :yes:

[Tombstoner]

...I don't think I'm beeing naysayer I think I am beeing a realist...

Nothing wrong with being a naysayer -- if you think something is crap you have a right to express your opinion (and of course, others have a right not to accept it).

[sprtsluvr8]

Hey that's not fair! We definatly have rhetoric down to a science. :haha:

Like I said I love the idea of a monument for Justice and Peace. I even like the idea of the museum they are putting in.

I am not so in love with the way they are determined to squeze it all into one tiny spot. Be honest the monument does look crooked now as you approach it from Midtown on 17th. Also nothing and I mean nothing in the commons compaments the structure. I don't think I'm beeing naysayer I think I am beeing a realist. Look at any other arches in the world and you will see what I'm talking about.

It's not about negative or posative, right or wrong, it is realism and there are plenty of historical architectural examples out there to justify my point of view. :yes:

Now that is a logical and intelligent response...finally.

[Andrea]

Grant Park is long overdue for an extreme make over and already houses the Cyclorama and one of the oldest zoos in the county. This would have made a fantastic entry to the north end of the park. After all, Piedmont Park has its grand 14th street entrance with a huge gate statue and staircase. If the developers had gone to the city and said we want to revitalize Grant Park and build a monument as a grand symbol for Atlanta’s accomplishments I don’t think there would be much of an issue.

I have to agree. This would have been ideal for Grant Park.

I realize it's a purely aesthetic judgment, but to me the monument seems jarringly out of place in the midst of an apartment complex. While I'm sure Atlantic Station will continue to evolve in the decades to come, at this time the area around the detention pond doesn't have any sense of place. Monuments like this are grand gestures and they work best in settings which offer a bit of grandeur.

[Fiorenza]

Maybe somebody can contact Rodney Cook and ask him if he would move it.

[Andrea]

Maybe somebody can contact Rodney Cook and ask him if he would move it.

You do have to wonder why he decided to put it next to a detention pond in the midst of an apartment complex rather than in one of the city's parks. To each his own, but if I were dropping several mill on a big monument I'd give some serious consideration to putting it in one of the city's major public spaces. Seems like you'd get more bang for your buck that way.

But as you say, rich guys can spend their money any stinking way they please, and I'm sure we could all reel off a list of vastly more ludicrous projects.

[foxmccleod]

You do have to wonder why he decided to put it next to a detention pond in the midst of an apartment complex rather than in one of the city's parks. To each his own, but if I were dropping several mill on a big monument I'd give some serious consideration to putting it in one of the city's major public spaces. Seems like you'd get more bang for your buck that way.

But as you say, rich guys can spend their money any stinking way they please, and I'm sure we could all reel off a list of vastly more ludicrous projects.

Didn't Atlantic Station donate the land for the monument? I am sure that had quite a bit to do with its placement.

[Andrea]

Didn't Atlantic Station donate the land for the monument? I am sure that had quite a bit to do with its placement.

Right, but don't you think a similar arrangement could have been negotiated for placement in a public park? Most of our major parks -- Chastain, Piedmont, Grant Park, Freedom Park, etc. -- have a number of special venues and spaces where privately funded enhancements have been established.

[jfsatlbldr]

In the final rationalization the massing of major elements requires exhaustive tradeoff study to demonstrate the philosophy of commonality and standardization culminating in the creation of an immortal monument to posterity!
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v338/jfsatlbldr/Atlantic%20Station/8-25-07150a_edited-1.jpg

[ThrashATL]

It would have been acceptable even in COP before AS. Now it's the reverse of a turd in a punchbowl.

[Terminus]

Speaking of the monument, has anyone else noticed that the 17th Street entrance to Twelve has an arched entry feature, as if to relate in some way to the arch?

It must be intentional, as it seems very out-of-character for a modern building to have an arched feature like that.

[joey]

On the point about this not being built in an established area, unless my memory is off, I think many of the grand statutes and monuments in history were in the middle of nowhere (or nowhere grand) when first built.

The Arc de Triomphe was built 30 years before Haussmann's redesign of the area (with the radiating avenues and consistent apartment buildings). On Richmond's Monument Avenue (full of grand homes and apartment buildings now), the first statues were built in cow pastures in planning for future development along the street.

[Andrea]

On Richmond's Monument Avenue (full of grand homes and apartment buildings now), the first statues were built in cow pastures in planning for future development along the street.

I totally love the Fan District. How much does it cost to live there, I wonder?

[joey]

I totally love the Fan District. How much does it cost to live there, I wonder?

In a city planning course I took last year, we proposed a mock condo project in the area, and the research showed a range of prices, none terribly high. You can buy a nicely outfitted condo in a renovated 1910s building for $180/sf. Unrenovated units are cheaper of course, and townhouses of the same vintage go for $200-$500k, depending on the state of renovation and the street. The area's a bargain for how well-kept-up it is, but before I type too long, this would be a discussion for another thread, I think.

[Toxostoma Rufum]

double post, sorry.

[Toxostoma Rufum]

In the final rationalization the massing of major elements requires exhaustive tradeoff study to demonstrate the philosophy of commonality and standardization culminating in the creation of an immortal monument to posterity!
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v338/jfsatlbldr/Atlantic%20Station/8-25-07150a_edited-1.jpg

The MG reminds me of the Stonehenge figurine in "This is Spinal Tap" :)

Is it me, or is that "Icon" out of its "Element"???

I've taken a few out of towners from various states and backgrounds to AS in the past year. They've shown zero interest in it. They're completely turned off by the looks and vibe of the place. Even a guy who one would think would never let aesthetic taste get in the way of a "good time" turned his nose up at AS. I don't even bother showing it anymore in the Grand Tours of Atlanta.

I still think far down the road the area will be vastly different from how it is now, and I'm very thankful that it was done as an answer to a vast wasteland. Sometimes answers raise more questions than they answer...

Radical proposal: drain the retention pond and fill it to street-level. Re-landscape it with trees and fountains instead. That would be a vast improvement for the residents of the area and would give the MG more of a reason to exist.

When I think of a memorial arch to something other than Victories, I think of things like the Temple to Music in the Roger Williams Park in Providence, RI. Compare this to the MG:

http://www.sec.state.ri.us/library/image/landmarks/templetomusic.jpg

[Andrea]

Tox, very well put. I agree with everything you say.

[sprtsluvr8]

I'm not sure that Atlantic Station was really intended to be a tourist attraction. It gets a lot of media attention and visitors have sometimes heard about it, but I kinda get the impression that AS is a residential area with local and possible regional shopping...and of course it's open to tourists if they really feel like going there, but I'm not sure what they would.

I hope that whole retention pond/swamp area will be altered to look more appropriate, not just for the monument but for the asthetics of the area and for use by the residents. It seems like a shame that it's such a wasted space.

[Tombstoner]

The MG reminds me of the Stonehenge figurine in "This is Spinal Tap" :)


Hey! Maybe MG was designed to play off the "Druid" in Druid Hills -- finally, a plausible rationale! :jester:

[ATLaffinity]

I've taken a few out of towners from various states and backgrounds to AS in the past year. They've shown zero interest in it. They're completely turned off by the looks and vibe of the place. Even a guy who one would think would never let aesthetic taste get in the way of a "good time" turned his nose up at AS. I don't even bother showing it anymore in the Grand Tours of Atlanta.


i think AS has become a major African-American entertainment destination. more so than places like Midtown or Crescent or what used to be the Buckhead clubs. just an observation. some of my best friends are black :tup:

i will see movies there although they even screw up the movie queue with the main line and "ticket ATM" lines crashing into each other (TIP: if you buy your tickets online through Fandango, go upstairs to get it instead of waiting behind 30 people at the "ticket ATM").

[ATLian12]

They have to fix the lake make it into a fountain or somthing. Fix up the concrete.

[ReallyTired]

And with the money spent, just think, they could have replicated a "real monument" like this one from my original hometown...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:YpsilantiWaterTower.jpg

:jester:

[ThrashATL]

And with the money spent, just think, they could have replicated a "real monument" like this one from my original hometown...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:YpsilantiWaterTower.jpg

:jester:

Needs a geyser on top.

[Fiorenza]

Needs a bit more height.

[STrek777]

Needs a bit more height.

So let me see if I got this right. Take the phallic watter tower, make it taller, and put a geyser on top!?!? Yeah... if that ever happens I don't think my mind will be the only one in the gutter every time I see it. :D

[atllocal74]

I think the Arch would have been alot better if they made it span across 17th so you could drive thru it. The scale of it is unimpressive. Awhile back someone mentioned the top of it could be rented out for special events and dinners. To me it looks like it would only fit about 3 tables up there.

[Stratosphere 2020]

They have to fix the lake make it into a fountain or somthing. Fix up the concrete.



I agree about the pond, it could be made more naturally and user friendly.

[GThomas]

I guess the exterior work has begun on the monument's frame. I'm pretty sure they've figured out what is going to make this monument work ... EIFS.

[STrek777]

I guess the exterior work has begun on the monument's frame. I'm pretty sure they've figured out what is going to make this monument work ... EIFS.

Great so now we have a faux neo-classical arch made out of concrete and covered with faux stone.

Let us not also forget the history of Atlanta museum located beneath this tragic structure. The history of the city goes back to the early 1800’s and I’m not sure that that little museum can do nearly two centuries worth of history justice.

It just upsets me that they feel the need to build this genuine faux arch to help provide a sense of historical age to the city. Our historical landmarks are in the ash from which the city sprouts from today. This arch does not do the city or the state justice.

[Tombstoner]

Great so now we have a faux neo-classical arch made out of concrete and covered with faux stone.

Let us not also forget the history of Atlanta museum located beneath this tragic structure. The history of the city goes back to the early 1800’s and I’m not sure that that little museum can do nearly two centuries worth of history justice.

It just upsets me that they feel the need to build this genuine faux arch to help provide a sense of historical age to the city. Our historical landmarks are in the ash from which the city sprouts from today. This arch does not do the city or the state justice.

When you think about it, a museum about Atlanta at the bottom of a fake stone classical arch couldn't be more perfect. Everyone is always saying "let Atlanta be Atlanta--stop expecting it to be like other places" -- here's your big opportunity.

[Fiorenza]

As my dad would say, "It's real Atlanta!"

[cessna_210]

They are putting up a new wall around the east end of the pond. You can get a good look at the site if you walk by the icon and cross 17th street and peer in. The whole gate isnt even concrete is it? Just the outer layer. I seem to remember when they were building it it was all wood and then they put a layer of concrete on the outside.

[jfsatlbldr]

They are putting up a new wall around the east end of the pond. You can get a good look at the site if you walk by the icon and cross 17th street and peer in. The whole gate isnt even concrete is it? Just the outer layer. I seem to remember when they were building it it was all wood and then they put a layer of concrete on the outside.
That outer layer you refer to is actually about 12" thick solid concrete and reinforcing steel bars. The wood you saw was the formwork used to hold the concrete as it was being cast in place. The structure will have no columns since the cast in place walls are thick enough to carry the entire weight of the structure. Just as a comparison, sometime check out the base columns at the AT&T (Bellsouth) tower on at North Ave and W.Peachtree. You will see huge exterior columns around the base supporting much of the weight of that tower. It too has no interior columns, only the perimeter ones and the center building core made of solid concrete supporting the entire structure.

[sabre0link]

I made it to AS yesterday....

The scale of it is nice... but somehow, it's choppy with the flow... and it seemed massively unimpressive... I did like that there was parking underneath the main drive, but the signage is lacking... My goal was IKEA, and I didn't see a sign for it til I got to Target (I was on State)... That's when I figured out there were 3 major roads, you come in and leave on the middle one, Target was on the north one, and IKEA was on the south one... I mostly saw teh apartments and condos and such... I couldn't tell that the housing to the south was part of the development, it was very different and seperated from the shopping area...

The facades of the apartments and condos look fake, too... They just feel like there's nothing really there. :S

Overall: I made it to IKEA (finally), but it didn't end my weirdo lackage of signage findings and frustration... I drove around a bit more, and the District area seemed to be done better than the apartments and such, but still lacking...

Maybe in a few years, when it's had time to age a little, it will seem better...

*sigh*

Oh, let me talk about the MG... lol.

There were wood formers on the outside of it, but that was about as much of an impact it made on me. I have a feeling it'll wind up looking like an arch was built upteen thousands of years ago, and developers built around it... Nothing matching, of course, so the arch will stick out like a sore thumb...

The arch looks good... but in the context of AS... no.

[Chris Creech]

They are putting up a new wall around the east end of the pond. You can get a good look at the site if you walk by the icon and cross 17th street and peer in. The whole gate isnt even concrete is it? Just the outer layer. I seem to remember when they were building it it was all wood and then they put a layer of concrete on the outside.

I kept thinking they'd be facing the concrete with whatever exterior material; however, I noticed today they've added a whole framework of metal framing studs completely around the arch covering all the concrete. I guess there's some sort of exterior system going outside the metal studs still - I was hoping they'd face it with stone but with the metal studs it's looking more likely to be fake stucco.

[ThrashATL]

I was hoping they'd face it with stone but with the metal studs it's looking more likely to be fake stucco.

Has to match it surroundings. AS wallows in fake stucco.

[Terminus]

I kept thinking they'd be facing the concrete with whatever exterior material; however, I noticed today they've added a whole framework of metal framing studs completely around the arch covering all the concrete. I guess there's some sort of exterior system going outside the metal studs still - I was hoping they'd face it with stone but with the metal studs it's looking more likely to be fake stucco.

No, true stucco.

[Sketching]

Here is a new photo realistic rendering of the monument that was posted on the Atlantic Station web site recently.
It also states that the monument opens next spring.

http://img257.imageshack.us/img257/4620/milgatewebbannerub0.gif

[MarketsWork]

Wow -- it looks completely different from the West and in a photo-realistic rendering. In time, the rooftop might become a very popular special event venue. It will look down over the pond and will have an excellent view of Downtown, a partial view of Midtown, and a commanding eastward view right down the middle of a built-out 17th Street. It might be nice. Time is our friend, so we will see...

[Fiorenza]

Now THERE'S a contrarian if I ever saw one. :)

[STrek777]

Now THERE'S a contrarian if I ever saw one. :)

:haha:

[smArTaLlone]

No, true stucco.

But its just more fun to say "fake stucco". :rolleyes:

[(four 0 four)]

Wow -- it looks completely different from the West and in a photo-realistic rendering. In time, the rooftop might become a very popular special event venue. It will look down over the pond and will have an excellent view of Downtown, a partial view of Midtown, and a commanding eastward view right down the middle of a built-out 17th Street. It might be nice. Time is our friend, so we will see...
Hey now!!! Enough of that...get with the program!:)

[MarketsWork]

I always considered myself a contrarian old coot until I joined this forum. But around here I have begun to sound like an advocate for positive thinking!
:tup:

[STrek777]

Novare's Atlantic is only 4 stories up and only now just a little more than halfway done with its parking deck. Even at this early stage it is easily 3 times larger than that stupid arch. How is it that the Atlantic can be so far along and so much larger and the Millennium Gate is still not finished. You can go a week and see only a few things accomplished with the gate. Keep in mind that the gate and the tower both started at close to the same time. It just makes no sense to me.

Of course it doesn't make much since putting a neo classical arch in AS either... oh well.

[L.ARCH]

Of course it doesn't make much since putting a neo classical arch in AS either... oh well.

I think it fits in well with the cheaply built apartments just behind it... same materials and all....


To be honest I'm waiting for the return of the obelisk. I think we could use a few of them around town...

[littlepnut]

Ok what is the purpose of having a monument at Atlantic Station? I mean is it just for decoration or landmark please explain!

[Andrea]

Novare's Atlantic is only 4 stories up and only now just a little more than halfway done with its parking deck. Even at this early stage it is easily 3 times larger than that stupid arch. How is it that the Atlantic can be so far along and so much larger and the Millennium Gate is still not finished. You can go a week and see only a few things accomplished with the gate. Keep in mind that the gate and the tower both started at close to the same time. It just makes no sense to me.

Arch building is a laborious process requiring a lot of Old World hand craftsmanship. You can't just slap one of these things up. There are only a few people left who can do this sort of thing.

[STrek777]

Ok what is the purpose of having a monument at Atlantic Station? I mean is it just for decoration or landmark please explain!

Because you have to have a place in Midtown for a Georgia/Atlanta museum that is barely big wnough to sneeze in! Don't you see how much we need this McMonument to no one in an area where it has no historical signifigance?!?! Geezee some people can be so negative.

;) hehehe I'm just having fun this thread is full of my scathing remarks for this structure.

[GTviajero81]

I swear, such primadonnas.

Many people seem to forget that our city is still growing. Just as in those cities that have existed for hundreds of years, monuments/construction that 'inspire' awe in tourists were, at many times, ridiculed by the local populace. I shall bring up a particular landmark that may have already been written of here: La Tour Eiffel, or the Eiffel Tower. It was considered a monstrosity of steel when it was developed for the World's Fair in Paris just over one hundred years ago, yet it is now considered the symbol that epitomises Paris the world over.

Now I am not saying that the Millenium Arch, here, in Atlanta is slated to be come the next Eiffel Tower. What I am saying is that it would be more prudent to withhold judgment and just let the thing BE. Who knows what 17th Street will be like in 25-50 or even 100 years?

[Behind_Phips]

:previous:

I have to agree with the "gentleman" above. I don't see anything wrong with it. I think once it is done and AS fills in, we will eat our words.

[STrek777]

I swear, such primadonnas.

Many people seem to forget that our city is still growing.

Who knows what 17th Street will be like in 25-50 or even 100 years?

17th street will be a street that has a monument on it that's crooked, dedicated to no one, and built for the sake of having one built. It will stand as a testimate to what a monument built out of concrete can look like. I'm sorry the thing is stupid even if it ends up looking the slightest bit cute the structure will still be stupid.

[GTviajero81]

17th street will be a street that has a monument on it that's crooked, dedicated to no one, and built for the sake of having one built. It will stand as a testimate to what a monument built out of concrete can look like. I'm sorry the thing is stupid even if it ends up looking the slightest bit cute the structure will still be stupid.

Here is where I shall respectfully disagree with you.

The Eiffel Tower (sorry for continually bringing this particular monument up but I feel that most know what it is) was not built or dedicated to anyone either. And to call the monument crooked? I am not sure that I follow. Do you see a young person whilst they are in puberty and say that they will look out of proportion for the rest of their life? I think not. We tell our children to don't worry about the teenage years as they will grow out of the awkwardness.

To call a structure 'stupid' doesn't really mean much. Such a subjective remark requires a better explanation. I do stand by my previous conviction that I think it premature to judge something that hasn't even been completed.

[Tombstoner]

:previous: I've seen the Eiffel Tower. The Eiffel Tower is my friend. This, sir, is no Eiffel Tower (of course, most forumers aren't old enough to remember Lloyd Bentsen, so this probably isn't very funny...)

It is absolutely true that many great works were misunderstood in their day and no one can say with 100% certainty that L'Arche d'Ikea will not become a major Atlanta landmark celebrated in poetry and song (and postcards). But I think that most "misunderstood" architecture was misunderstood because it was daring, bizarre (as Eiffel's tower was considered), or otherwise strange. L'Arche d'Ikea is none of these -- it is very tame, very derivative, appeals to very middle-brow tastes (gee, Ma, it's like we're in Par-ee, France!). We get it. Really. It is not mysterious or weird. It is just tacky and sad. That's why I don't think this will become any more of a landmark than the pathetic torch sitting on the east side of the Connector that does little more than mock Atlanta.

[MarketsWork]

17th street will be a street that has a monument on it that's crooked, dedicated to no one, and built for the sake of having one built. It will stand as a testimate [sic] to what a monument built out of concrete can look like. I'm sorry the thing is stupid even if it ends up looking the slightest bit cute the structure will still be stupid.

And if your post should survive three hundred years, would it be a testament to poor spelling? Seriously, one misspelled word does not mean anything on an internet forum post -- but aren't the "little quirks" what make some things special? So what if the arch was oriented to that crooked segment of 17th Street? The arch stands where the street turns between a boulevard of tall towers and a divided road wrapping a lake in a village of mid-rise residences, and I believe this "crooked" orientation will allow some great angled views. And while nobody knows what the area will look like in another sixty or seventy years, I suspect the scene will be beautiful and people will enjoy it. At least by then, all the critics will be dead and the arch will seem to have always been there -- the real key to critically-acclaimed monuments!

I have to stand with GTviajero81 and Behind_Phips on this one. Sorry, Behind_Phips.;)

[DoteDote]

I noticed over the last few days, gigantic blocks being hauled around for this monument. They were at least 1ft. thick, maybe even 2ft... but my first thought was they looked like blocks for the Pyramids. Anyway, I couldn't tell if they were concrete or granite, but if I had to guess, I'd say they were granite blocks.

That could explain the seemingly slow progress... hanging a bunch of those blocks could take a while.

As for the arch being "crooked", I prefer it that way. I think it'll give the north-facing walls a bit of sunlight in the Summer months... it will not appear 'flat' to westward drivers on 17th... and slightly offset is sometimes better than perfectly straight.

[Behind_Phips]

And if your post should survive three hundred years, would it be a testament to poor spelling? Seriously, one misspelled word does not mean anything on an internet forum post -- but aren't the "little quirks" what make some things special? So what if the arch was oriented to that crooked segment of 17th Street? The arch stands where the street turns between a boulevard of tall towers and a divided road wrapping a lake in a village of mid-rise residences, and I believe this "crooked" orientation will allow some great angled views. And while nobody knows what the area will look like in another sixty or seventy years, I suspect the scene will be beautiful and people will enjoy it. At least by then, all the critics will be dead and the arch will seem to have always been there -- the real key to critically-acclaimed monuments!

I have to stand with GTviajero81 and Behind_Phips on this one. Sorry, Behind_Phips.;)

MarketsWork - I thought we had an accord that we were never to agree in public.

The Millennium Gate Monument sucks.

[Andrea]

To call a structure 'stupid' doesn't really mean much. Such a subjective remark requires a better explanation. I do stand by my previous conviction that I think it premature to judge something that hasn't even been completed.

And as we like to say here in Atlanta, think of how much future development this arch will spur!

[atlantatree]

I read through the entire thread and felt compelled to add my two cents.

We live just on the other side of the Connector from Atlantic Station, and as a result we walk over there a couple of times a week, and my girlfriend and I always scratch our heads over several aspects of the Millennium Arch.

The most glaring shortcoming (as STrek777 has pointed out) is that the sightlines are off. The two monuments do not line up visually with the arch. This makes the park appear poorly planned. The park/pond area itself is still nothing more than a glorified retention pond. The grass is on a steep slope down to pond (and therefore relatively functionless as a nice place to walk your dog or toss a ball with the kids). I can understand the fence around the pond as a safety measure, but it's still ugly. What would it take to create a nice, evenly graded parklike surface (not a drainage bowl) with a flat reflecting pool? Landscape some geometrically ordered flowering cherry trees or dogwoods and the arch would overlook a beautiful park.

The kitty-litter like pebbles surrounding the two statues freaks me out and I refuse to walk anywhere near it, because judging from the amount of dog crap on the sidewalks near all those condos (there should be a maxim: You can always tell the caliber of a neighborhood by the amount of dog crap left on its sidewalks), who knows what's in there?

I still have hope that the arch will turn out alright. I'm also still scratching my head over the design. With SCAD so close, and probably many professional sculptors in the city, why didn't they go with something original? And if they truly wanted the monument to reflect the spirit of Atlanta (i.e. regeneration from the ashes) and of the Atlantic Station brownfield-turned-mixed-use community, what's wrong with our old standby, the phoenix? The city of Ottawa in Canada has a nice monument in front of Parliament Hill with a gas-lit "eternal flame." With the aforementioned phoenix motif and Atlanta's Olympic history, I can think of something that would mean a lot more to Atlantans than a run-of-the-mill neoclassical arch.

With all the head-scratching that the arch engenders, people will no doubt think I have developed a case of head lice.

[Fiorenza]

If they wanted to emulate Europe, 17th St. should have been laid out as a boulevard, in a straight line from one end to the other, with the Arch smack in the middle, a traffic circle around it, and the pond off to the side. But as it is, it's a massive design joke. From what I know about Rodney Cook, the impetus behind this venture, he's held to be an idiot with money. Tremendous amounts have been spent in AS to no avail. It's a Felliniesque Disneyland.

Now can I tell you what I really think?

[sabino86]

http://photos-d.ak.facebook.com/photos-ak-sf2p/v167/2/92/22608885/n22608885_33331027_3866.jpg

http://photos-d.ak.facebook.com/photos-ak-sf2p/v167/2/92/22608885/n22608885_33331031_4856.jpg

:yuck:

[GTviajero81]

I have to say that those are good photos to see as I haven't been by the Arch in about a week.

All I will say is that remember people, we are still a growing city. I have lived in Europe, NYC, and Central America. Trust me when I say that I know what OLD looks like. Never in history has there been a span of a century where so much technological advancement occurred. What is this statement's relevance? In another 100 years what you care about, what your prematurely concocted opinions are, will have little meaning to future generations. Obelisks built in Rome, London, Paris, Barcelona, among many cities were actually quite anachronistic as this architecture is derived from the Ancient Egyptians. And even if there were people who bally-hooed such structures during their construction, many people look upon them as awe-inspiring...even though they really are replicas of what has been and didn't fit into the exact landscape of their respective time. However the important thing to note is that someone sought a reason to build them and it was done. Many of these monuments that are currently so highly-regarded in the older countries were many times not located within the city centre.

Many who lived in Paris whilst Le Tour Eiffel or L'Arc de Triomphe (some of your misspellings appall me) were being constructed ridiculed such efforts as these monuments were placed in relatively non-central areas. For those who have never been to Paris or have not extensively learned about the city (I used to live there), the main area of skyscrapers is an area named La Defénse. It's rather strange to the American eye as here is an area of interesting and different towers that are, gasp!, outside of the city centre!

What does this mean?

Cities of such an age are fine and well....for cities of their age. The problem that is now presented in these cities (London is a GREAT example, btw) is that as the metropolitan areas have expanded so very far out (talk about sprawl, try driving on the M25 or M40 in London during rush hour!) there is no where to build dense, modern commercial centres that are actually centrally located. For those forumers that have not actually visited London, did you know that there are many buildings in that city that are actually quite taller than Big Ben? Ask many Londoners and they will say that it is actually a pain to have to commute between different MODERN commercial centres since they are not centrally located.

Now let's return to Atlanta.

Sun-Belt cities have the distinct advantage of being able to build better cities based on hindsight. Atlanta is not unlike other Sun-Belt cities in the sense of that we began our exponential growth post WWII. But what is different here is that we were THE ONLY Sun-Belt city to develop Rapid Mass Transit during this same era. This should be the key to understanding our future. As Andrea has pointed out so many times (and I intensely respect and revere her knowledge of Atlanta history and the resources of such) our lovely, fair city has NEVER looked down upon itself...we have been built with the sense that anything is possible. So what that the Millenium Arch is not in the shape of a Phoenix. Go to Five Points if you want to see a (quite beautiful statue, imo) of a Phoenix. There is nothing saying that this sort of monument to the entity itself will never be built. One should be happy with what is here now and with what one can do to make things better for the future.

(ready for the segue back to the beginning of my *dissertation*?)

Enjoy the fact that things are still getting built here. For those who haven't lived here most of their lives I'll let you in on a BIG secret here in Atlanta (Andrea please do not become vex at me): The Spirit of the Phoenix doesn't lie necessarily and solely in monuments. This Spirit lies within those who claim to be an Atlantan. A true Atlantan believes that anything is possible with hard word and dedication. We've never needed great fancy boulevards and statues and natural waterways to prove this. That is why people still move here from all over the world...Atlanta is almost a modern-day Ellis Island. One can fly to all but two continents non-stop here, and the other two in one stop. Just as I heard the quote from Dallas Austin who says that,
"The soul of Atlanta is in the trees. That is what makes Atlanta."
the same can be said of the imaginary Phoenix....it is the drive of the populace that define and epitomise the Phoenix. It is no mistake that there are many post-secondary institutes of education here, and that people are coming here by the hundreds of thousands.

With all that being said, I will reiterate that it is prudent to hold one's opinion until things get done here in Atlanta...it is guaranteed to change for the better, but until now...there is no better.

Cheers!
:cheers: (My bank account may not buy a round for all in the city, but I can sure as heck try! btw no imports, just domestics!)

[MarketsWork]

Well said, GTviajero81! It is refreshing to hear another forumer who has lived long enough and seen enough of the world (good and bad) to truly appreciate what a great place and time we Atlantans are blessed to live in. We are spoiled rotten by successes which most cities can't even imagine -- which is why another 100,000 of their people move here every year! These are the good old days...
:cheers:

[Terminus]

Well said, GTviajero81!

I second that!

[SteveD]

Nice post, GT. Obviously heartfelt, and it's apparent you put a lot of thought, care, and effort into it.

[Behind_Phips]

Although I agree with the post above, I do not believe that it is prudent to hold back ones opinion. This is a forum and everyone deserves the right to state their opinion.

I personally have no problem with the Millennium Gate, but if you think it looks like crap, then by all means you should say it looks like crap!

[Tuckerman]

GT

Many thanks for this nice post; I very much agree with your point of view. I too have had the privilege to live in Europe (Antwerp and Edinburgh) and regularly work in Paris; also in earlier years lived in Boston, Chicago and Baltimore. I travel a lot, but always enjoy most being in Atlanta. For me it is the youth of the place, the dynamism, the change mixed with absolutely sufficient cultural institutions like the symphony and the High that only seem to get better and better with time.

My undergraduate thesis was on Napoleon III and the reconstruction of Paris. Much if not most of what people admire in that great city today was created by a man of great vision (Haussman), but he, and his plans, were heavily criticized at the time and many regarded him and the reconstruction plans as outrageous. Time and perspective is a wonderful cure for skepticism.

[Tombstoner]

Why is it that so many discussions in this forum basically degenerate into: "This is crap and you should think it's crap too!" or "This is great and you should think it's great too!" :shrug: People are entitled to different opinions and, unless you've really got evidence to bring to bear, we should be content to let people have different opinions.

[Tuckerman]

Why is it that so many discussions in this forum basically degenerate into: "This is crap and you should think it's crap too!" or "This is great and you should think it's great too!" :shrug: People are entitled to different opinions and, unless you've really got evidence to bring to bear, we should be content to let people have different opinions.

Everybody has opinions; hopefully the forum would have some dialogue and discussion. Skyscrapers,architecture, monuments, etc are rarely great or awful; they are usually somewhere in between and judgement is contextual, timebound and usually reflects the background of the commentator. This is mainly about judgement. "Evidence" is another thing altogether; in the world of judgement there is no "evidence". There is no randomized clinical trial on whether or not a monument is good or bad.

[Tombstoner]

Everybody has opinions; hopefully the forum would have some dialogue and discussion. Skyscrapers,architecture, monuments, etc are rarely great or awful; they are usually somewhere in between and judgement is contextual, timebound and usually reflects the background of the commentator. This is mainly about judgement. "Evidence" is another thing altogether; in the world of judgement there is no "evidence". There is no randomized clinical trial on whether or not a monument is good or bad.

That is precisely my point. It is a matter of airing views rather than "proving" that anyone is right or wrong.

[GTviajero81]

Although I agree with the post above, I do not believe that it is prudent to hold back ones opinion. This is a forum and everyone deserves the right to state their opinion.


You are correct, opinions should be dispersed freely. My intention was never to say that one opinion was better than the other. In fact, if one reads through my posts, I have yet to offer my opinion about the structure. Why is this? Because it would be hyprocritical of me to offer my opinion without a real and extensive basis. I will hold my judgment until it's finished (or at least nearly!).
One can do what one wants, just realise that improperly and prematurely divested opinions tend to have little to no weight behind them.

[RobMidtowner]

^I think some people are upset about the idea of a monument in this location so the final product will always be a disappointment regardless of how well it may or may not be designed and built. :shrug:

Personally, I think it seems a bit odd to draw more attention to this ugly detention pond, but nonetheless somebody is paying to have it done so I hope it turns out better than we think.

[Andrea]

I've seen worse things. Take that Olympic torch, for example.

:yuck:

[littlepnut]

I totally agree with Robmidtowner I think people are not happy about a Monument being in this location and with the final product will look like but does anyone know what the Monument is going to be used for yet? And the pond also needs to be cl