[sabino86]

Demolition for Civic Center?
City considers new performing arts theater

By DAVID PENDERED
Published on: 05/18/07

Atlanta's Boisfeuillet Jones Atlanta Civic Center may be demolished and replaced with a new performing arts theater under a redevelopment plan that could be finalized by the year's end, the city's commissioner of parks, recreation and cultural affairs said Friday.

"We do not have a plan yet but we are in discussions [with a developer]," Commissioner Dianne Harnell Cohen said. "We're moving along fairly quickly [and] I would hope we have some sort of plan during 2007."

Cohen said the city is committed to having a theater on the site and for it to be competitive with newer venues around metro Atlanta. The civic center was built in 1967 and Cohen said the configuration of the 4,600-seat theater prevents the audience from feeling that they are attached to the performance.

Cohen declined to say how a new theater would be financed. "Stay tuned," was all she would say.

It could be included in a potential bond issue the city's finance officials are contemplating. Atlanta may seek to sell a $250 million bond to help pay for a wish list of projects, including a center for civil and human rights and the Peachtree Streetcar, that are to boost the city's economy. The bond is not included in the city's budget that's to be adopted in June.

If a new theater is built, it most likely would be part of a mixed use development that would include residences, shops and maybe office space. The city owns the civic center and about 10 surrounding acres, including the building that once housed Sci-Trek, the children's science museum that closed in 2004.

Developer Charles Ackerman has a long-term lease on the vacant property and has been working since 1985 to build something on the site. It appeared that the closure of Sci-Trek could jump-start a development on the site, because Atlanta was willing to allow the demolition of that building. But Atlanta had no interest in allowing the demolition of the civic center at that time.

Cohen said the planning for recent exhibits the city has sponsored, including "Bodies" and "Titanic," prompted the city to look at redeveloping the entire site.

"If we could have a new and improved civic center on that site, we would certainly go for it," Cohen said.

[ThrashATL]

The Civic Center is a dreadful building that shouldn't have been built in the first place. Knock it down!

[SAV]

Off with its Head!!!!!!!!!!!!!!:whip:

[MarketsWork]

If public money is going to be spent to redevelop the Civic Center site and connect it to the rest of "SoNo" and Midtown, the homeless shelters must be relocated. Unless these bum magnets are removed, anything built on that site will be cut off from pedestrian linkage to MARTA rail and to the nearby Peachtree corridor. I believe it would be a waste to redevelop this island in the middle of BumCrack without concrete plans to remove the pedestrian-detering blight and integrate the Civic Center site into better surroundings.

[shanthemanatl]

If public money is going to be spent to redevelop the Civic Center site and connect it to the rest of "SoNo" and Midtown, the homeless shelters must be relocated. Unless these bum magnets are removed, anything built on that site will be cut off from pedestrian linkage to MARTA rail and to the nearby Peachtree corridor. I believe it would be a waste to redevelop this island in the middle of BumCrack without concrete plans to remove the pedestrian-detering blight and integrate the Civic Center site into better surroundings.

Amen. Hopefully this project will be the impetus for the full-scale redevelopment of BumCrack.

[sabino86]

Amen. Hopefully this project will be the impetus for the full-scale redevelopment of BumCrack.

So we're back to that huh? ;)

[Andrea]

Amen. Hopefully this project will be the impetus for the full-scale redevelopment of BumCrack.

The bums and crackheads shold be run out of downtown and evenly dispersed throughout Midtown, Druid Hills, Lilburn, Fayetteville, Forsyth County, Virginia-Highland, Crabapple, Buckhead, Ansley Park, Mayretta, Morningside, and Johns Creek, etc. That way nobody can complain about getting the short end of the stick.

[ThrashATL]

The bums and crackheads shold be run out of downtown and evenly dispersed throughout Midtown, Druid Hills, Lilburn, Fayetteville, Forsyth County, Virginia-Highland, Crabapple, Buckhead, Ansley Park, Mayretta, Morningside, and Johns Creek, etc. That way nobody can complain about getting the short end of the stick.

They'd starve (or go thirsty) out here in Forsyth, there aren't enough enablers (people with bleeding hearts handing out change).

[Andrea]

They'd starve (or go thirsty) out here in Forsyth, there aren't enough enablers (people with bleeding hearts handing out change).

Heh. Do you think that would really happen if they were actually out there, Thrash? (Not accusing or anything, just asking because it's an interesting question).

[ThrashATL]

Heh. Do you think that would really happen if they were actually out there, Thrash? (Not accusing or anything, just asking because it's an interesting question).

Yeah, it would happen, nobody would give them money out here plus they'd get run over by an SUV if they stood in the streets panhandling.

[Andrea]

Yeah, it would happen, nobody would give them money out here plus they'd get run over by an SUV if they stood in the streets panhandling.

Wonder why that doesn't happen in Atlanta? Are people who work or live in the city just that much different from folks in Forsyth County?

[sprtsluvr8]

I'm thinking they would get much more sympathy panhandling in a suburb than in the city. City folk are more used to it and kind of insulate themselves from it. Personally I act like I don't hear or see them and just walk on by. I can't fund every homeless creature on the street so I don't fund any of them, unless someone just really catches my sympathy. I think suburbanites would be more inclined to charity and would feel more sympathetic when approached.

[gttx]

I can't even believe they're talking about tearing down the Civic Center and funding a new one when they refuse to give anything to the Symphony Center! This city has never had its priorities straight.

[shanthemanatl]

The bums and crackheads shold be run out of downtown and evenly dispersed throughout Midtown, Druid Hills, Lilburn, Fayetteville, Forsyth County, Virginia-Highland, Crabapple, Buckhead, Ansley Park, Mayretta, Morningside, and Johns Creek, etc. That way nobody can complain about getting the short end of the stick.

Not a bad idea, actually. NYC had a homeless "farm" upstate in Orange County for years where they would bus many of the city's homeless. I'm sure the folks in Forsyth, Henry, or Carroll counties would love it!

[PremierAtlanta]

I can't even believe they're talking about tearing down the Civic Center and funding a new one when they refuse to give anything to the Symphony Center! This city has never had its priorities straight.

I was under the impression that the city and a developer (who already owns part of the parcel) would be in conjunction with this redevelopment. The developer probably would pay the city a nice sum to have the area redeveloped. The developer gets his parcel and the city gets a new civic center. The Symphony Center (something I am in great support of) is a different financial creature.

[downtown_dweller87]

Hello- my name is Adam, I believe this is my first post. I live downtown at the Georgia State lofts; I study urban issues at Georgia State in their "Community Studies" program.

How the issue of homelessness is being discussed here is really disappointing to me. These people are HUMAN BEINGS, not simple annoyances to all the well-off folks headed to the Civic Center. I know the area is a blight, but let's remember that they are simply humans like all of us and you have no idea why they got where they are.

The whole ideology that people that give them money or food are "enablers" and all that don't are somehow helping them more? What a load of crap. If you don't want to give them anything thats fine, but don't justify it as if you are helping them more than the "bleeding-heart enablers".

Other than that, I am really excited to join the forum. I have been interested in urban and Atlanta issues ever since my Nana started taking me all around the city on MARTA when I was like 3- I barely remember going to Rich's, Kesslers, etc. before they closed in the early 90s. I have now dedicated my life to learning more about urban issues and making Atlanta a truly great place to life, with an emphasis on better and more expansive transit and sustainable development along with social concerns over things like affordable housing and those who lose in the process of gentrification.

Hoping for some great discussions- I feel I have a lot to contribute. Everyone has some great ideas- I've been lurking for years- so I think this will be fun.

:hi: Adam

[akiatl261]

:previous: I so totally agree with you. They are HUMAN and lets not forget that. Majority of the citizens, suburban or urban are not immune from the causes that got many of the homeless to where they are today.

[sprtsluvr8]

When I'm abruptly approached or confronted for a handout, I have a strict policy of ignore or just give a firm "No" right from the start. I'm not labeling the homeless as less than human and I know they have civil rights, but I am always wary of letting anyone on the streets become aware that I have any money at all...and I would never take out my wallet. I have compassion for needy people and I have given money to people on the streets before...in the right, relatively safe situation.

The aggressive ones are the worst...and even worse, the ones who yell and make a scene when you don't give them a handout. They give the homeless a bad name...

[sunking1056]

Thank you Adam for saying that and saying it well. There does seem to be a dominant sentiment on this board that the homeless (and people that just don't look rich...) are nothing but worthless impediments to development. But, as you said, they are human beings.

[atlanta_transit]

Maybe now is a good time to start thinking about resurrecting the old plan for a peoplemover between the station and the Civic Center site...

Seriously though, the main reason that the station exists was the justification that the Jackson Administration wanted it to give MARTA access to the city facility and to help redevelop the area there. How does it finally get linked well to the site? Ideas?

[akiatl261]

I think if the eastside of downtown could be worked on i.e new development, I think it would spread down to the civic center area and would help to make the area more walkable. It always seems like the forgotten side over there.

[MarketsWork]

How the issue of homelessness is being discussed here is really disappointing to me. These people are HUMAN BEINGS, not simple annoyances to all the well-off folks headed to the Civic Center. I know the area is a blight, but let's remember that they are simply humans like all of us and you have no idea why they got where they are.

Welcome to the forum, Adam. You are right to emphasize that the homeless are fully human and "not simple annoyances" to the rest of us. We should certainly treat them with dignity and compassion, just like any other person.

That said, homeless shelters are magnets for drugs, prostitution and other criminal activities, and we have a duty to shield the rest of society from the unecessary annoyances, intimidation and violence which typically accompany such congregations of the down and out. Most of them are homeless for a reason, and even in the best of cases, these just aren't places that regular folks and their families want to be.

We can be idealistic and wish that everyone was the same, and that homeless shelters had no negative impact on their surroundings. But the fact is that the street atmosphere created by concentrations of homeless can doom the redevelopment prospects of an area. There is nothing wrong with productive citizens not wanting to spend their hard-earned money to live in the midst of street bums. Nor can you fault any developer for choosing a better location when the fortunes of his family and his investors are on the line. Those are just prudent, real word decisions.

I would suggest that we nurture the geese that lay the golden eggs. The more healthy growth we promote, the more that wealth will increase. Like most charities, homeless shelters receive their greatest support from the wealthy among us. More geese will yield more eggs, so I say relocate the homeless shelter and rebuild BumCrack into SoNo. In the end, it's the most compassionate thing to do.

[sprtsluvr8]

I absolutely hate it when a stranger approaches me, especially while I'm getting in or out of the car...I feel really uneasy about it. There's a good chance that someone living on the street is desperate, and desperation often leads to crime as a way to survive. I don't want to be the victim of it...I've told more than one person that we live in a big city with abundant crime, and it's not cool to come up on someone like that no matter what your intentions are. I don't think it's inhumane at all...it's keeping my guard up and a constant awareness of what's going on around me. I think people often become crime victims when they get too relaxed or too impaired to notice things in their immediate environment.

[alleystreetindustry]

could they take the georgia dome to hell with the civic center also?

[Fiorenza]

It is kind of ugly in an unimaginative way, ain't it?

There I go again...stop me before I go negative any more!

[ThrashATL]

could they take the georgia dome to hell with the civic center also?

Unlike the Civic Center, the Dome actually MAKES money.

[alleystreetindustry]

Unlike the Civic Center, the Dome actually MAKES money.

but it is also very ugly. a facelift into the dome being a solid white would be very nice.

[Fiorenza]

If they'd trade Vick it would look better.

[MarketsWork]

If they'd trade Vick it would look better.

:yes: :cheers: :yes:

[ATLian12]

Last time I went to the civic center was a couple years ago for Lion King. It needs to be rebuilt but I dont think we should waste too much money on it unless it is going to make alot more money. They need to revamp the area too.

[sprtsluvr8]

Removing that extended stay/weekly motel (Savannah Something?) would be a step in the right direction. There is usually a horde of people hanging around it.

[RobMidtowner]

Isn't Arthur Blank doing renovations to the Dome? I remember seeing a rendering and the outside was painted black I think.

[whoDean]

Removing that extended stay/weekly motel (Savannah Something?) would be a step in the right direction. There is usually a horde of people hanging around it.

While that hotel is creepy (the couple that got arrested for ritualistically killing their children in the hotel then walking naked up PIedmont a few years ago was bizarre), those people you see milling around are undoubtedly patrons of the Pine Street shelters.

[vandiver49]

Isn't Arthur Blank doing renovations to the Dome? I remember seeing a rendering and the outside was painted black I think.

You're right Rob, the Dome does need an overhaul, the family of buildings it was designed to integrate with are gone.

Here's a link to the planned renovations...
http://www.gadome.com/about/nw156.htm

[Chris Creech]

After living in town for many years, I find there gets to be a great chasm between homelessness in the abstract vs. realty.

Of course we all try to be compassionate and understanding, demand our varous governments do something, and hand out a buck or too here and there.

However, getting these elaborate hardship story (I just got off the bus and was mugged - or I came to Grady to visit dying Mom) spun to solicit a buck, only to have the same homeless person tell you the exactly same hard luck story a week later gets old. Having to pick up crack pipes and beer cans out your bushes every day - gets old. Having your neighborhood jeapardized by homeless people setting fires in abandoned homes - gets old. Having to tack down every piece of furniture on your porch, having to chain and lock up your mower and hand tools inside an already locked tool shed -gets old.

I think it's great people study these issues in the larger planning and policy arenas - something definitely should be done - the policies (or lack there of) today certainly aren't helping.

I'm sure there are some needy individuals out there; however, they are being so overshadowed by petty criminals, drug addicts and rude aggressive panhandlers, there's not way to sort them out.

[Andrea]

If they'd trade Vick it would look better.

Gee, so I guess we're no longer taking cultural variations into account?

[Fiorenza]

In his case, I think not.

[sprtsluvr8]

I was getting some gas at the Shell at the corner of Ponce and Boulevard today...it's impossible to stand there while your gas pumps and not be approached by someone milling around that corner. A guy approached me today and handed me some cds. I asked him if he was giving to me, and he (in few words) told me that he was extremely desperate and having a really hard time. I'm not sure what he was desperate for, but somehow he struck me as sincere. I only gave him the coins I had in my pocket, not more than a dollar or so...and he did say thank you. It felt like one of those corny old "Latter Day Saints" commercials. It was kinda nice to be accosted by someone with manners...

[Andrea]

I was getting some gas at the Shell at the corner of Ponce and Boulevard today...it's impossible to stand there while your gas pumps and not be approached by someone milling around that corner. A guy approached me today and handed me some cds. I asked him if he was giving to me, and he (in few words) told me that he was extremely desperate and having a really hard time. I'm not sure what he was desperate for, but somehow he struck me as sincere. I only gave him the coins I had in my pocket, not more than a dollar or so...and he did say thank you. It felt like one of those corny old "Latter Day Saints" commercials. It was kinda nice to be accosted by someone with manners...

I wonder if he's the same guy who hangs out at the drive-thru window at the Krispy Kreme trying to "sell" you CDs? I'm surprised they let him hang out there, since he can reach your drivers side window as they hand you your doughnuts.

[sleepy]

How the issue of homelessness is being discussed here is really disappointing to me. These people are HUMAN BEINGS, not simple annoyances to all the well-off folks headed to the Civic Center. I know the area is a blight, but let's remember that they are simply humans like all of us and you have no idea why they got where they are.

The whole ideology that people that give them money or food are "enablers" and all that don't are somehow helping them more? What a load of crap. If you don't want to give them anything thats fine, but don't justify it as if you are helping them more than the "bleeding-heart enablers".




There was an interesting study on the homeless that was discussed on NPR this week. It basically said that the least costly and most effective way to deal with the homeless is to give them a place to live--not in shelters, or hotels--but in some sort of semi-permanent residence. It was cost effective in terms of the judicial system, crime, drug use/rehab, jobs, etc.

[whoDean]

The least costly way of dealing with criminals is to ignore them too.

[shanthemanatl]

I was getting some gas at the Shell at the corner of Ponce and Boulevard today...it's impossible to stand there while your gas pumps and not be approached by someone milling around that corner. A guy approached me today and handed me some cds. I asked him if he was giving to me, and he (in few words) told me that he was extremely desperate and having a really hard time. I'm not sure what he was desperate for, but somehow he struck me as sincere. I only gave him the coins I had in my pocket, not more than a dollar or so...and he did say thank you. It felt like one of those corny old "Latter Day Saints" commercials. It was kinda nice to be accosted by someone with manners...

Sprtsluvr8, I know your heart was in the right place, but there's a reasonably good chance that this very "sincere" gentleman busted out somebody's car window in search of more valuable loot and ended up with these CDs. Call me jaded from living in BumCrack for the last two years, but I just think it's a terrible idea to enable the homeless to remain dependent on the charity of others by giving them money.

[sprtsluvr8]

I wonder if he's the same guy who hangs out at the drive-thru window at the Krispy Kreme trying to "sell" you CDs? I'm surprised they let him hang out there, since he can reach your drivers side window as they hand you your doughnuts.

As long as he can't reach my doughnuts...cuz then it would get serious...

[shanthemanatl]

Are there any updates on this? Weren't we expecting some news by the end of the year?

[trainiac]

Are there any updates on this? Weren't we expecting some news by the end of the year?

Have you noticed South Face's building on the north side of the property lately? It looks to be almost finished -- they've certainly taken their time! I wonder what agreement they have with the other interests in the area?

http://www.southface.org/

I go back and forth on the old Civic Center convention area and concert hall. I actually like the buildings themselves but hate their relation to the neighborhood. The parking lots and spacing from Piedmont remind me of an early 70s high school complex in a huge suburban area.

[briantech]

Sure bums are human. So what? They're worthless humans. They leech off of society and give nothing back but crime, prostitution, and filth.

If you're so pathetic that you give up on life to the point that you're homeless, and have to subsist on money given to you by guilt tripped people, fine. But that gives you no right to some of the most highly desired property RIGHT ON PEACHTREE STREET.

The perfect solution is to build a homeless farm for them. You wanna be homeless? Fine, but you don't get a choice about where you beg for money. Building a facility outside the perimeter is the best idea. I'm tired of working my ass off each day, I pay taxes, I contribute to society -- and yet I can not enjoy my neighborhood because of these damned homeless people. Why do they have more rights than I do? ugghhh

[Behind_Phips]

Sure bums are human. So what? They're worthless humans. They leech off of society and give nothing back but crime, prostitution, and filth.

If you're so pathetic that you give up on life to the point that you're homeless, and have to subsist on money given to you by guilt tripped people, fine. But that gives you no right to some of the most highly desired property RIGHT ON PEACHTREE STREET.

The perfect solution is to build a homeless farm for them. You wanna be homeless? Fine, but you don't get a choice about where you beg for money. Building a facility outside the perimeter is the best idea. I'm tired of working my ass off each day, I pay taxes, I contribute to society -- and yet I can not enjoy my neighborhood because of these damned homeless people. Why do they have more rights than I do? ugghhh

...I don't even need to say anything to win this one!

Smack Down Score

Behind_Phips 2
BrianNerd 0

[briantech]

...I don't even need to say anything to win this one!

Smack Down Score

Behind_Phips 2
BrianNerd 0
So how many points do you get docked for your inability to actually form a response, as well as your childish name calling? hmm like -20?

[cabasse]

brian, i don't think anyone could convince you to view one's situation through anyone's but your own viewpoint. there are many things that can break down a human being to the point at which they basically no longer exist...

[Behind_Phips]

So how many points do you get docked for your inability to actually form a response, as well as your childish name calling? hmm like -20?

Where to start Brian:
1. Did you grow up physically abused?
2. Have you ever been sexually abused?
3. Did your mother smoke crack while you were unborn?
4. Did your family not have enough money to put food on the table?
5. Do you have any mental problems and are uninsured?
6. Have you ever served in the military and seen things that destroy ever bit of your human fiber and come home from war to a government that could give two craps about you?
7. Did you grow up with one or no parents?

These are the worthless human beings you talk about. You couldn't walk one damn day in their shoes. These people are not trash. You can't just throw them out like yesterdays trash. People like you disgust me. You are pathetic to write that crap.

[Fiorenza]

These are human beings, and I don't blame them for their circumstances, but the organization giving them food and support should be relocated to a less commercially viable area. Human nature is what it is. We all want to be in contact with people like ourselves, the success stories, not those who have lost life's lottery. This is a prime piece of downtown, but will never achieve full potential until that shelter is relocated. Just the facts.

[gttx]

Where to start Brian:
1. Did you grow up physically abused?
2. Have you ever been sexually abused?
3. Did your mother smoke crack while you were unborn?
4. Did your family not have enough money to put food on the table?
5. Do you have any mental problems and are uninsured?
6. Have you ever served in the military and seen things that destroy ever bit of your human fiber and come home from war to a government that could give two craps about you?
7. Did you grow up with one or no parents?

These are the worthless human beings you talk about. You couldn't walk one damn day in their shoes. These people are not trash. You can't just throw them out like yesterdays trash. People like you disgust me. You are pathetic to write that crap.

I actually think this is a discussion worth having, and that both of you (Behind_Phipps and briantech) should be a little bit more open to the other's point of view. Both of them are valid, and for either of you just to discount the other is silly if you ask me.

Yes, many homeless people have had terrible pasts - ones that I am blessed to not have experienced. I think many of us take for granted growing up in good homes, receiving an education, and having access to segments of society that many others do not. Many of them struggle just to sustain themselves. Many of them are even working hard every day just to stay where they are - after all, a minimum wage job can't exactly fund a place to live in the city. And you're right: they are people, after all.

Yet for both the poor that have lost hope and don't care, and those that are willing to work for a second chance, there must be a better solution than the shelters the city has established for them. MarketsWork, you may have a suggestion (if you're reading this), because clearly the government has failed in many respects. Should we simply let the market take care of this? Is this something that can be reconciled with market forces, or is it the obligation of the city to take these people in and offer them food, shelter, and jobs?

I for one despise the fact that many of them roam our city's most notable address. There must be a better place - and better means - to handle the poor and homeless than what we have conceived to date. If addressing this problem means shipping them off somewhere, then so be it. They certainly have the right to live where they want, but that doesn't mean that the city or taxpayers owe them the right to live on Peachtree Street. The way I see it is that the people of this city who are working every day, who are giving up years of their lives struggling through commutes and 40+ hour weeks, have to leverage where they live based on their incomes in relation to other expenses. Many people who work all the time still cannot afford to live in a condo in Midtown. Why is the city giving a free ride to homeless in one of the nicest parts of town? If these people are unwilling to or cannot work, let them live somewhere, but have it be somewhere that the market dictates. The "highest and best use," as they say, of that land is certainly not a homeless shelter. The people living there deserve it no more than anyone else, and the fact remains that these shelters are blights on the neighborhoods.

Where can they be moved? I don't have a good answer to that. I just know that it's unfair to ignore these people, but also unfair for them to continue to bring down what could be an excellent area of town. Hopefully we have some visionary leaders in the near future that can address the problem with solutions that have to this point not been realized.

[Andrea]

We all want to be in contact with people like ourselves, the success stories, not those who have lost life's lottery.

Fiorenza, I have run across that phrase about "life's lottery" several times lately. I'm getting the sinking feeling I may turn out to be one of the big losers but do you happen to remember where it came from? Wasn't it from some politician?

[Andrea]

Where can they be moved?

How about Cobb County? I'm not wedded to that but I'm sure Cobb has a lot more money to deal with this situation than the city of Atlanta.

[Fiorenza]

They do need to be close to Marta. I'm thinking Ft. Mac.

Andrea, I have no idea where the phrase came from, but I'm how about the hospital maternity ward scene in "Once Upon a Time in America", if you're familiar with that one, and the comment made by the brothel "madame" concerning the dilemma they were confronting there. It's a great movie if you haven't seen it.

[Andrea]

They do need to be close to Marta. I'm thinking Ft. Mac.

Well, they need public transportation but not necessarily MARTA. Now that Cobb and Gwinnett have transit that opens up a whole host of new options. I'm thinking Cobb would be ideal, for several reasons:

-- For one thing, more money. Cobb's not burdened with aging infrastructure costs and legacy medical and retirement obligations yet, so they should be pretty flush for the time being.

-- Secondly, more space. Cobb's not as paved over as downtown, so there's plenty of room to set these folks up with a little greenspace and walking around room, instead of gritty urban sidewalks with very few amenities.

-- Thirdly, Cobb has a number of very walkable communities. Marietta, Smyrna, and even downtown Kennesaw are very navigable by foot, especially when it comes to getting to places like grocery stores, schools, medical care, government offices and recreation facilities.

-- Fourth, more opportunities for integration into the community and upward mobility.

== Fifth, fairness to homeless folks and to the community in general. There's no reason to continually stick these people inside the city limits of Atlanta, which represents less than 10% of the metro area, and exclude them from the other 91% of Atlanta.


Fiorenza, yes, I do like that movie, especially the long version.

[Fiorenza]

The homeless people are signed up to vote every election. The Atlanta political machine would never agree to relocate them out of the city.

[Canasian]

Not a bad idea, actually. NYC had a homeless "farm" upstate in Orange County for years where they would bus many of the city's homeless. I'm sure the folks in Forsyth, Henry, or Carroll counties would love it!

Interesting. I used to live in Orange County, NY and the "farm" as you call it was a homeless shelter. There is a bike-ped rail trail, the Orange County Heritage Trail, (quite nice , actually) that goes through the edge of the proprty. It is policed by NYC cops in golf carts, no joke. It has been an on-going debate about shutting it down for years. A lot of the homeless and the ones that just gotout of jail were sent to Newburgh, NY on the Hudson, in Orange County simply because ther were "more apartments" i.e 70% of Newburgh is rental and absentee landlords- resulting in a severely depressed city. It has done some work in alliveating the problems, but they have a way to go. There is a new master plan, and a lot of civic involvement and public participation went into this plan.

So as far as "Camp Laguardia" as it is called worked to an extent, by containing the homeless population. There was a lot of fear by the people that used the trail because of the proximity. I think it was overdone. I lived also in Atlanta, and it would be a no go there, esp. in the northern suburbs. Too many rich NIMBYS and rich republicans. Odd too, because Orange County is heavly republican.

[Andrea]

The homeless people are signed up to vote every election. The Atlanta political machine would never agree to relocate them out of the city.

I can't imagine that would be an obstacle. The homeless folks are usually bitterly at odds with City Hall, and there aren't enough of them (app. 6,000, including children) to make much of a difference even if they did all vote. If they were considered an important voting block, no doubt the suburban political machines would be eagerly courting them for the same reasons.

[Fiorenza]

As I've posted previously, the only real humane solution is assimilation. The city could sponsor a group home in every neighborhood, and those 6,000 could be housed and cared for by themselves, and would have many people and churches in proximity who would be willing to assist them with jobs and other positive reinforcement. The churches could be subsidized to feed them, or food trucks could deliver from a central location. Best of all is, the churches and private donations would cover most if not all the cost of this sort of operation. The city would have to pass an ordinance mandating that each neighborhood is required to accept a group home.

[Andrea]

As I've posted previously, the only real humane solution is assimilation. The city could sponsor a group home in every neighborhood, and those 6,000 could be housed and cared for by themselves, and would have many people and churches in proximity who would be willing to assist them with jobs and other positive reinforcement. The churches could be subsidized to feed them, or food trucks could deliver from a central location. Best of all is, the churches and private donations would cover most if not all the cost of this sort of operation. The city would have to pass an ordinance mandating that each neighborhood is required to accept a group home.

I think you are totally right, Fiorenza, although the entire metro area should be required to participate instead of just leaving it to the city of Atlanta (as usual). The city proper only constitutes 9% of Atlanta's population and 1.5% of its land.

If you bring the strength of the entire Atlanta area to bear the homeless problem would be solved in the blink of an eye. If every church took in even one homeless person that would be the end of it right there.

[Fiorenza]

At present Gwinnett has no homeless problem. They passed an ordinance prohibiting loitering, which is the stick end of the solution.

But, let's be real about government's inability to deal with this. The problem is only visible in a small area, and it's not going to be politically feasible to assimilate the homeless into neighborhoods on a forced basis. I mean, what if the government puts a shelter down the street from you and the residents thereof rape your daughter? First case of that, and the politicians will be finger-pointing. The best approach would be to set up a voluntary model, and let it become socially appropriate to accept and promote neighborhood shelters without the stigma. People will buy in if given a well-publicized prototype and allowed to accept the idea on a voluntary basis. To contradict what I just wrote in a previous post, government ordinances and mandates won't really move the problem. We need to provide a way for people to help people.

[Andrea]

At present Gwinnett has no homeless problem.

Oh, I don't know about that, Fiorenza.

Lawrenceville mother and son found dead in car; police believe homeless pair died from carbon
(http://www.scangwinnett.com/modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=2764)

Or this: (http://familypromisegwinnett.org/homeless.html) "There are no shelters for homeless families in Gwinnett, even though the Gwinnett County School System accommodated over 3,000 homeless students during the 2005-2006 school year. In 2006 there were 20,485 evictions and 6,130 foreclosures in Gwinnett County. At the average family size of 2.5 that equals approximately 66,537 family members that lost housing in 2006."

Or this: City seeks help from suburbs to shoulder homeless (http://atlanta.bizjournals.com/atlanta/stories/2003/06/23/story4.html)

Or this: Speech by By Ellen Gerstein, Director, Gwinnett Health and Human Services (http://www.gwinnettforum.com/2002issues/02.0205.gerstein.htm)

And don't forget the proliferation of "extended stay" motels. And what happens as the poor are increasingly pushed out of the central cities into the suburban counties? We're already past the day when the suburbs can claim the homeless problem only exists somewhere else, and as time goes on that's going to be even more the case.

I mean, what if the government puts a shelter down the street from you and the residents thereof rape your daughter? First case of that, and the politicians will be finger-pointing.

Has that ever been an issue? I honestly haven't heard of it. Most rapes are committed by someone the victim already knows, yet they don't isolate those guys in advance.

The best approach would be to set up a voluntary model, and let it become socially appropriate to accept and promote neighborhood shelters without the stigma. People will buy in if given a well-publicized prototype and allowed to accept the idea on a voluntary basis. To contradict what I just wrote in a previous post, government ordinances and mandates won't really move the problem. We need to provide a way for people to help people.

Yeah. We've got a couple of shelters in my neighborhood and they've been extremely effective. I think the feeling is to keep them low profile. Most people want to help, though of course they also want safety and order in their own neighborhood. That takes a strong, committed community and good policing.

I think when we talk about homelessness we have to be specific and watch out for the stereotypes. Taking care of homeless people is one thing, but nobody wants a bunch of bums aggressively panhandling them, breaking into cars or stealing stuff off their front porches. It's that latter group that people find offensive, and they are not representative of homeless folks in general.

[Behind_Phips]

Don't look to the churches to support the homeless because they cannot afford it.

I went home a couple of weekends ago to see my folks. My mother is a born again and she made me go to church with her. I asked her where her preacher lived and she told me the neighborhood. I went online and saw that his house cost $650,000. So much for taking a vow of poverty. You could feed a lot of homeless people for $650,000.

[Behind_Phips]

I'm not religious, but if you claim to be then maybe you should live by the WORD you speak to others.

Blessed are you who are poor, for yours is the kingdom of God. Blessed are you who hunger now, for you shall be satisfied....But woe to you who are rich, for you are receiving your comfort in full. Woe to you who are well-fed now, for you shall be hungry....Give to everyone who asks of you...Treat others the same way you want them to treat you...lend, expecting nothing in return; and your reward will be great... (Luke 6:20-21, 24-26, 30-31, 35).

[Behind_Phips]

For the record...

I am not against religion. I believe in and support personal choice. What I have a problem with is the messengers. I suspect many who claim to be religious or Christians share Briantech's beliefs and I find that utterly shocking and hypocritical.

[Behind_Phips]

These are human beings, and I don't blame them for their circumstances, but the organization giving them food and support should be relocated to a less commercially viable area. Human nature is what it is. We all want to be in contact with people like ourselves, the success stories, not those who have lost life's lottery. This is a prime piece of downtown, but will never achieve full potential until that shelter is relocated. Just the facts.

I see your point, but I disagree. In the show Six Feet Under, somebody said, "Why do people have to die?" and the caretaker said, "So people will value living" - something to that affect. So I ask you, "How will YOU ever know success if you don't live among the unsuccessful?" These shelters should not be moved. They should be cleaned up and have strict panhandling laws enforced.

[Andrea]

B_P, if Jesus was on this board he'd say:

"But when the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the angels with Him, then He will sit on His glorious throne. All the nations will be gathered before Him; and He will separate them from one another, as the shepherd separates the sheep from the goats; and He will put the sheep on His right, and the goats on the left.

"Then the King will say to those on His right, 'Come, you who are blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world. For I was hungry, and you gave Me something to eat; I was thirsty, and you gave Me something to drink; I was a stranger, and you invited Me in; naked, and you clothed Me; I was sick, and you visited Me; I was in prison, and you came to Me.'

"Then the righteous will answer Him, 'Lord, when did we see You hungry, and feed You, or thirsty, and give You something to drink? 'And when did we see You a stranger, and invite You in, or naked, and clothe You? 'When did we see You sick, or in prison, and come to You?' "The King will answer and say to them, 'Truly I say to you, to the extent that you did it to one of these brothers of Mine, even the least of them, you did it to Me.'

"Then He will also say to those on His left, 'Depart from Me, accursed ones, into the eternal fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels; for I was hungry, and you gave Me nothing to eat; I was thirsty, and you gave Me nothing to drink; I was a stranger, and you did not invite Me in; naked, and you did not clothe Me; sick, and in prison, and you did not visit Me.'

"Then they themselves also will answer, 'Lord, when did we see You hungry, or thirsty, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not take care of You?'

"Then He will answer them, 'Truly I say to you, to the extent that you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to Me.'

"These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."

Matthew 25:31-46.

Now that's some real sweet teaching, straight from the man himself. Right to the point.

[Fiorenza]

But there are certain social problems that are associated with homelessness.

But Andrea, thanks for the info concerning Gwinnett homeless people. I guess I had assumed that since I never see them here, they must not exist.

[Behind_Phips]

Andrea,

I wonder if Jesus would be pissed if his flock put the needy on a farm in Cobb County albeit they sheltered and fed them?

[Behind_Phips]

But there are certain social problems that are associated with homelessness.

But Andrea, thanks for the info concerning Gwinnett homeless people. I guess I had assumed that since I never see them here, they must not exist.

And there is not social problems with the "Successful" people? Please explain. I live in "Successful neighborhood" and a neighbor two doors down has had the police at his house twice for beating his wife.

[Andrea]

Behind_Phips, I don't know and I don't want to find out. Maybe they wouldn't have to be put on a farm, but could simply be taken into shelters and homes until they get back on their feet?

Fiorenza, I know what you mean. For the most part the homeless aren't on my immediate radar screen either. But they are definitely out there, in almost every community.

[Behind_Phips]

Behind_Phips, I don't know and I don't want to find out. Maybe they wouldn't have to be put on a farm, but could simply be taken into shelters and homes until they get back on their feet?

Fiorenza, I know what you mean. For the most part the homeless aren't on my immediate radar screen either. But they are definitely out there, in almost every community.

Andrea and Fiorenza, I know you are the good guys, so no worries. It's just there are a lot of Briantech(s) out there and burns me to no end.
:notacrook:

[Andrea]

:cheers:

[darryl27]

So, does anyone know if there are updates on the demolition of the civic center?

[Terminus]

At present Gwinnett has no homeless problem. They passed an ordinance prohibiting loitering, which is the stick end of the solution.

When I was doing the master redevelopment plan for the Jimmy Carter/Beaver Ruin/Indian Trail area a few years ago we worked closely with a group working to address homelessness and affordable housing in the county called the Impact Group:

http://www.theimpactgroup.org/

They are doing a great job at providing transitional housing for homeless families and revitalizing many of Gwinnett's blighted areas. I was truly unaware that so much of the county had declined so rapidly until I started that project.

Unfortunately, the thing that I find disturbing is that some outlying counties are selective about the services they provide. Those homeless who don't fit the model (single-men, those with mental issues) are often brought into Atlanta by said suburban providers and left for us here to deal with. It's very frustrating.

[Fiorenza]

We can all agree that dumping the outcasts on the urban streets of Atlanta or the streets of anywhere else is not the solution.

[sabino86]

We can all agree that dumping the outcasts on the urban streets of Atlanta or the streets of anywhere else is not the solution.

Agreed

[mahanakorn]

The convention space is superfluous, thanks to the much larger GWCC. Is the performance space worth saving?

This idea improves the way the center relates to the street, and the lake in the park provides a focal point for the area (and a reflecting pool for downtown towers). Downside: underground parking is expensive.


http://siamselect.com/uploads/images/Atl%20Civic%20Center%20copy.jpg

[CB SONO]

Ok... I live right next door to the civic center, the homeless situation is not entirely different from my experience with living in DC. I look out my back window and see all kinds of things happening in Renaissance Park.

The fact remains, IMHO, that unless "Peachtree and Pine" is under control, there will be no clear linkage between downtown and Midtown. For example, I recently stopped taking MARTA to work because of the gauntlet that I had to walk through every morning to get to the either the North Ave station or Civic Center station. I was asked daily for money and about the contents of my laptop bag. Some downtown hotels recommend that visitors to our area avoid walking down Peachtree. I'm not saying Peachtree and Pine has to move out, but something is not working there.

The Civic Center site is ripe for re-development as is the entire block bordered by Pine, Piedmont, Renaissance, and Courtland.

[Chris Creech]

[QUOTE=Terminus;3251654]
They are doing a great job at providing transitional housing for homeless families and revitalizing many of Gwinnett's blighted areas. I was truly unaware that so much of the county had declined so rapidly until I started that project. QUOTE]

My company has moved out to Gwinett just off Jimmy Carter and I'm remember again why I hate the surburbs. I had no ideal that Jimmy Carter had declined so much, but there's just long stretches of delapidated half-empty strip malls, it's kinda depressing. Gwinett grew so fast they just were throwing up anything they could in the 70s and 80s and now it's all falling apart.

We have our own buidling in one of the office parks there and I was amazed at the huge homeless populations that live in office parks, this was something I hadn't really known about. When everyone goes home they come out of the woods and make their dumpster rounds, eating out of all the restaurant dumpsters. There's a creek that runs through our area and a bit of a large low flood plain, with a whole homeless city that's you'd never even know was there if you didn't know where to look.

The suburbs may not have the panhandling problem that downtown has, but it's certainly got it's share of homeless. I think it's just much easier for them to live invisibly in the burbs.

[Andrea]

That's sad, Chris. :(

A lot of that area around there is heavily developed and probably more dense than many areas inside the city limits. And you are right, a good bit of it is pretty run down.

By the way, can you get out there via transit or do you have to drive? It's interesting how many of us are stuck with so-called reverse commute.

[Chris Creech]

That's sad, Chris. :(

A lot of that area around there is heavily developed and probably more dense than many areas inside the city limits. And you are right, a good bit of it is pretty run down.

By the way, can you get out there via transit or do you have to drive? It's interesting how many of us are stuck with so-called reverse commute.

The Transit isn't very convenient or timely, but some people do it cause they have to.

We even have employees that live in Cobb, that take Cobb Transit (CCT) to the CCT transfer station to get the bus into Atlanta to catch MARTA, then have to get the train to come out to the end of the line to Doraville, then catch a bus into whatever the Gwinett (GCT) Hub is to finally get to where we are. They're spending hours each day on transit, with multiple system transfers. You think that Cobb and Gwinett would have an express bus that connected their main transfer points - but they don't. GRTA doesn't help much either. Since I've been up here I'm thinking more and more there needs to be a MARTA heavy rail line along the N 285 arc, but forget that bus transit 285 is just too much gridlock, it needs to be completely seperate. Extend the three N and East marta lines out further and connect them with a Marrietta/SandySprings/Dunwoody/Norcross/Lilburn/StoneMtn line.

Have the stations right in or next to the old downtowns, and promote some nice urban new/old town developments, you tie it all up with light rail within each area. Then network buse out everywhere else.

Some of the routes may only have 2-3 runs each for am or pm rush hours.

[Fiorenza]

We need to convert gas stations at freeway entrances to parking lots for low range but low cost electric vehicles, lay light rail in the outer lanes, and build transfer facilities at those points for the trains and buses. Maybe when gas is $10/gallon it will start to happen. Maybe not.