[Only The Lonely..]

A city of fraidy-cats?
Survey finds 78% of Winnipeggers fear to go into some city areas

By Aldo Santin | Winnipeg Free Press| Sat May 26 2007

We're one scared city!

A survey has found that 78% of Winnipeggers are afraid to go into parts of their city -- the highest rate in Canada.

WINNIPEGGERS are the most likely to say they're afraid to set foot in some parts of their city, a Canada West Foundation survey of residents of seven Canadian cities has found.

Slightly more than 78 per cent of Winnipeg respondents said they strongly or somewhat agree with the statement "There are parts of the city I am scared to set foot in," -- a greater percentage than in any of the other cities.

But the survey found Winnipeggers aren't alone when it comes to concerns about safety. A majority of residents in each of the other cities also said there were parts of their city they were afraid to walk in.

"Every major city has their challenges... in the downtown area and inner city," said Jino Distasio, executive director of the University of Winnipeg Institute of Urban Studies.

"Many cities have problems with crime and panhandlers, and people all have apprehensions and fears of going into other parts of their own city."

Distasio said safety problems associated with Winnipeg's downtown, North End and West End are no greater than those experienced by residents of other Canadian cities. But he said a history of strong neighbourhood loyalty among Winnipeg respondents would negatively influence the survey results, more so here than in other cities.




"There are parts of the city I am scared to set foot in."

City Strongly agree % Somewhat agree %

Winnipeg 52.8 25.6

Regina 44.4 30.1

Vancouver 42.6 28.6

Edmonton 38.0 31.4

Saskatoon 39.8 28.5

Toronto 40.8 26.0

Calgary 31.9 33.1



"I don't think there is another city where the residents show such strong loyalty to the neighbourhood where they grew up and continue to live," Distasio said, adding there is a reluctance among residents of any Winnipeg suburb to go downtown and into any other neighbourhood. He said that could account for people being afraid of going into other parts of the city.

The Canada West Foundation commissioned a survey on public safety in six western Canadian cities and Toronto. Other issues examined included the need to reduce crime, best responses to illegal drug activity, street prostitution and panhandling, and neighbourhood safety.

The survey found that respondents in each of the seven cities "tend to favour increased law enforcement when it comes to drug dealers, drug houses and panhandling."

The survey also found that a majority of respondents in all seven cities said reducing homelessness is a high priority and they believe that government is doing "a poor job addressing urban social issues such as poverty."

Distasio said downtown Winnipeg has long had an image problem that has fuelled concerns of suburban dwellers. He said the Canada West Foundation survey shows that repeated attempts to alter that image have failed.

"We've been working on a solution for three decades and we have failed," Distasio said. "Whether we fare worse or better (than other cities), the survey suggests that we still have problems."

Winnipeg Mayor Sam Katz said all Canadian cities have serious crime problems and Winnipeg is no different, noting the fear of crime is high in all seven cities surveyed.

The mayor reiterated that crime reduction and prevention are his administration's No. 1 priority. That's why the Winnipeg Police Service created street-crime task force Operation Clean Sweep and crime-monitoring program CrimeStat, he said.

"It's time for us to stop daydreaming and say, 'Yes, we have a problem and let's do something about it,' " Katz said.

But the mayor also said he would walk alone down any street in any Winnipeg neighbourhood at night, even though he's well aware some are safer than others.

"I may not be the average individual," he said, noting tough-looking characters usually recognize him and strike up a friendly conversation. "And I grew up on Selkirk Avenue."


aldo.santin@freepress.mb.ca

-- With files from Bartley Kives



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Listen up: Danger here is mainly in your head


Bartley Kives

JUST when you thought Winnipeg's inferiority complex was on the wane, a new survey suggests we think our city is more dangerous than it really is.

According to the Canada West Foundation, eight out of 10 Winnipeggers say they're afraid to walk the streets in certain neighbourhoods. Even worse, our citizens are more fearful than those in six other surveyed cities -- Toronto, Vancouver, Calgary, Edmonton, Regina and Saskatoon.

While there's no denying Winnipeg has impoverished neighbourhoods, organized criminal gangs and a serious problem with property crime, the notion this city is actually one of the most dangerous in Canada is mildly insane.

Yes, Winnipeg has a bad reputation for crime. But that rep stems primarily from two ignominious statistics -- our status as Canada's per-capita car-theft capital, as well as our former status as the homicide leader, too.

Car theft genuinely is out of hand. But as anyone with a passing understanding of mathematics can tell you, the "murder rate" is a pile of hooey. The annual number of homicides in our city is so small compared with the overall population that year-to-year fluctuations in the per-capita murder rate have no statistical significance whatsoever.

The sad fact is, all North American cities have problems with crime. And all cities have a mix of both pleasant and gritty neighbourhoods.

Winnipeggers who feel we somehow have it worse than other centres merely need to travel more often, as our nastiest neighbourhoods don't even come close to the ugliest parts of other metropolitan areas.

Every evening, the east side of downtown Vancouver resembles a scene from Night Of The Living Dead as the West Coast city's heroin addicts take to the streets.

Suburban Toronto is plagued with the sort of housing projects that give urban planning a bad name. And Los Angeles recently sported a homeless village crammed with 20,000 souls.

But none of these three cities is defined by their ugliest areas. Vancouver is renowned for mountain scenery, not junkies. Toronto is admired for its vibrant multiculturalism, not for its concrete towers of misery.

And Los Angeles is the land of movie stars and palm trees. Few visitors to L.A. venture into the uglier areas, because homeless tent cities don't exactly rate as popular tourist attractions.

Likewise, when tourists visit Disneyworld, they don't seek out the worst areas of Orlando. In New York City, few visitors go out of their way to explore The Bronx.

And right here in Winnipeg, most residents don't go out of their way to spend time in neighbourhoods we presume to be unpleasant.

And guess what? Most of our supposedly "bad" areas are nowhere near as scary as they're cracked up to be.

I can say this with uncommon conviction: I live in an inner-city neighbourhood my own newspaper once dubbed "Murder's Half-Acre." After four years in the 'hood, I couldn't be happier with my surroundings.

Yes, I lock the back gate at night. And yes, my gas barbecue is chained to a metal fence. But that's just part and parcel of living in the centre of a North American city.

When it comes to property crime -- the only truly obnoxious facet of Winnipeg life -- actively seeking to prevent loss is not just a personal responsibility, it's a civic duty.

Sure, everybody has a story about how they were frightened by somebody or something in some Winnipeg neighbourhood at some time. But as my colleague Dan Lett brilliantly wrote in his blog, "the plural of anecdote is not data."

As Mayor Sam Katz often says, crime is a real problem in Winnipeg. But the perception of crime can be just as serious.

Until we collectively take a mature and sober look at our problems within the context of the entire country and continent, we should not complain.

Because the fact is, compared to most of North America, we have it good.


bartley.kives@freepress.mb.ca

[ctown.myth]

Going to a High School back in the day where you'd find knife fights and gun fights almost everyday, I won't say that I'm too scared to go into most parts of the city, if not all.

[Only The Lonely..]

Why be scared of other parts of the city, my own neighbourhood is way more dangerous. This murder happened last night about half block from where I live.


http://www.winnipegfreepress.com/ips_rich_content/654-stabbing26_2.JPG
Above, police officer marks evidence in a fatal stabbig Friday night near Sutton Avenue and Rothesay Street.

[mr.x]

*cough* downtown eastside, east vancouver, hastings *cough*

[scumtoes]

118th ave adjacent to NAIT all the way to rexall place.

[Calgarian]

I've heard downtown Winnipeg is a dangerous place after dark, there are lots of Native gangs that like to beat up everyone who comes on their "turf". not sure if this is true, it's just what I hear.

Downtown Calgary can be a little shady after dark, especially the east village, lots and lots of crackheads down there.

[Marc B.]

No. But, it's sensible to be cautious in a couple areas.

[skrish]

I don't have a problem with any areas in Calgary

[ProudlyCanadian]

I feel uncomfortable in some areas (East Village, parts of 7th Ave, and parts of 14th street), but I wouldn't say I'm scared for my life.

[Nutterbug]

Pussies! :P

[401_King]

nope.

i can understand if you are a white person and go to some areas that you've never been before , you might feel a little out of place/ uncomfortable...but i only get scared when i go to little hick towns...thats when i get stares

[Border City Boy]

118th ave adjacent to NAIT all the way to rexall place.

LMFAO! I was just in Edmonton last week for a wedding, and I had the pleasure of "accidentally" ending up on 118th, driving down it at night from Norhtlands to beyond NAIT. (Wrong turn off the Yellowhead HWY). It looked a little rough, and the billboards annoucing a Syphilus Warning, along with the "This Community Does Not Tolerate Prostitution" signs on ever streat corner made for an intersting drive.

As a side note, there was a 7-11 on 118th that had the cheapest gas anywhere in the whole city. If that is the worst place in Edmonton, then that's not so bad. I also visited Vancouver and drove E. Hastings in the middle of the afternoon, and wow... It looks pretty sketchy even in broad daylight.

Living in Windsor, and having driving through some of the most blighted/blownout areas of Detroit, MI, I had to see what Canada had to offer.

The one thing on my trip that struck me as odd was the amount of grafitti in Western Canada (BC/AB) on buildings or rocks, etc.. that were many, many miles from anything.

[alps]

Nope...some people like to act like certain areas of Halifax are dangerous to venture into, but they really aren't.

[1ajs]

god dam the suburbanites in winnipeg are a bunch of wussis

[WHISTLERINMUSKOKA]

After venturing into some of Chicago's bad hoods, and getting lost with my g/f in Camden New Jersey at 3am, all Canadian scary areas are a walk in the park.

[1ajs]

After venturing into some of Chicago's bad hoods, and getting lost with my g/f in Camden New Jersey at 3am, all Canadian scary areas are a walk in the park.

lol yea nothing like geting lost in teh geheto in the us.........

[vid]

I live in what is pretty much the worst neighbourhood into town, so I guess my answer is no. Everyone is scared of going to the Brodie Street bus depot at night but I've never even seen crime there let alone been the victim of one. :/

The drivers in this city are more scary than the people wandering the streets, imo.

[Xelebes]

I party on 118th ave. Unf!

But really, I'm generally not scared. I do spot the occasional mentally unstable or sketched-off-their-rocker people and feel a bit wary around them but for the most part I don't worry. I wave to walk 118th ave to get to work (around Coliseum Station.)

[Cambridgite]

Waterloo Region is a breeze. Second lowest murder rate in the country too. Sketchiness of downtown areas is HUGELY exaggerated by a long shot and there's no real ghetto inner-city places. The only "ghetto" areas I can think of are some public housing and "concrete towers of misery" in some of the older suburban areas. There's a bunch of areas like that, but they're small, and separated from each other. You hear about the odd incident drugs/gun related, but no real no-go areas. Nothing large-scale like Jane/Finch in Toronto. Parts of inner-city Hamilton can be rough too, like around Barton. Even those areas don't look too bad compared to when my dad took the wrong turn in Tampa and had a detour in Detroit. Really, if you're down in any Canadian hood, just keep your cool, mind your own business and don't act like an idiot. You're probably not going to get hit by a stray bullet.

Anyone have some pics of Van's downtown eastside? Heard it's pretty crazy. Since it's apparently the roughest hood in Canada, it'll give us a good reference.

[Rusty van Reddick]

Van's DTES is without question the most disturbing thing I've seen in Canada, but the area adjacent to the drop-in centre in Calgary is pretty much a smaller version of it. I've walked (haplessly) through the western part of the DTES getting back DT from Chinatown and I've walked along the pathway in Calgary between Fort Calgary and Harry Hays. They were both horrible experiences.

I'm amazed that 40% of Torontonians strongly agreed. Really, really amazed. There is nothing in Toronto that is even remotely as bad as the worst parts of the west. I've walked by Moss Park and Regent Park and have been through Rexdale, Weston Rd, Jane/Finch, I worked at Wilson and Dufferin briefly, I've basically walked from the Beaches to High Park and from York Mills to the lake. I cannot think of a part of the city that is no-go, desolate aside from dealers and addicts the way we have here.

[rgalston]

That survey seems a little subjective, and thus (surprise surprise) the stats are up for debate if not entirely meaningless.

It's perfectly rational to not feel the normal sense of safety in places you are not familiar, that are dark, seemingly vacant, or seemingly hostile. The Winnipeg media at least, has once again taken this normality and tried to make it sound abnormal--like having a city with neighborhoods others may feel unsafe in is exclusively a local problem. I live in Point Douglas, and walk on North Main at all hours of the day and night without hesitation. I'll walk up Selkirk Avenue from Main to Arlington for Pat Thai on evenings... places the average white Winnipegger would never dare set foot in alone. And yet, there are parts of the city that I would avoid at night because I feel unsafe there: Portage Avenue, tiny parts of the West End, and of course the projects.

[Coldrsx]

ive never had any problems in Edmonton...

east jasper and or 107ave/118ave are kinda sketchy, but it is more visually than anything.

overall a safe city IMO

[spiritedenergy]

I've heard downtown Winnipeg is a dangerous place after dark, there are lots of Native gangs that like to beat up everyone who comes on their "turf". not sure if this is true, it's just what I hear.

yeah, and you can find aliens there too. you can tell to whom told you that that they're rather stupid.

[SFUVancouver]

The Downtown East Side (DTES) in Vancouver is genuinely worth avoiding. Not because of any real risk of being mugged or randomly targeted for violence, which I imagine is what these surveys are geared towards, but instead the DTES is full of ill addicts and their behaviour can be simply irrational. Someone strung out on heroin or crack or meth and they have schizophrenia means they are completely in their own world and you have no control over how you will be perceived by them. Nearly all the time they simply ignore you and are more of a harm to themselves than others. But they can turn violent and, again, you have no control over what will set them off. It can be scary to be in the DTES and most Vancouverites have no reason to be there, save for passing through by car or transit. It is not a place I would voluntarily visit for these reasons and because it is a debilitating sad place.

The DTES is misery in its truest form. Addiction, poverty, and mental illness. Fortunately the downward slide on the drug side of the equation is being addressed with the supervised injection site. Incidences of shooting up on the street in broad daylight have fallen remarkably and those who use the safe injection site have been found to seek treatment and medical assistance at a higher rate than those who do not. We need more safe injection sites and even the police are on board as some of its strongest supporters. In my opinion 50% of the DTES' problems are health-related, 40% poverty-related and only 10% criminal. They steal to buy drugs. Plain and simple. Then there is the AIDS epidemic.

There are more epidemiologists doing research on the DTES than anywhere else in North America because within the DTES population HIV/AIDS rates are similar to those in Sub-Saharan Africa. Of the DTES' permanent population of about 30,000 about 10,000 are positive for HIV/AIDS. This adds a whole new layer to the discourse because not only is the guy who broke into your car homeless, he is also likely an addict, has a high likelihood of being mentally ill, and may be positive for HIV/AIDS. Where do you begin?

Jail only treats a symptom of a much more complex problem. How about detox for their drug addiction? Most drug treatment centres won't or can't help people if they have serious mental health issues, let alone AIDS. They healthcare system is not designed to treat AIDS or serious mental illness for those who are strung out on drugs. What about housing? Most non-profit or social housing agencies won't admit someone on drugs, nor are they equipped to handle the needs of someone with serious mental illness or AIDS. This is the conundrum of the DTES and it is why the supervised safe injection site is so vital. It helps break the cycle by providing the person with a safe, healthy place to shoot up and acts as a gateway to treatment, healthcare, and information about housing. So far it is the only thing that has made a positive impact in the DTES after years of police crackdowns, increased social services, and innumerable hours of volunteer aid. The DTES has the dubious distinction of being the poorest postal code in Canada and the recipient of the highest per-capita Federal social spending.

[niwell]

Not really. I used to live in one of the "bad" areas of Ottawa and it was generally fine. Some sketchy characters on the bus late at night, but certainly not dangerous. Regent Park in Toronto didn't really seem dangerous either.

Walking through Roxbury in Boston made any neigbourhood I've seen in Canada seem tame by comparison. And even then I was far more worried about my camera than anything else.

I will agree with Furrycanuck about Calgary though. I haven't seen any concentrated areas like that in Ontario. The vacant lots, decay and obvious signs of addiction are quite horrible.

[spiritedenergy]

ive never had any problems in Edmonton...

east jasper and or 107ave/118ave are kinda sketchy, but it is more visually than anything.

overall a safe city IMO

I've heard and read crime in Edmonton is out of control in the whole inner city, not only downtown... again I do not trust completely these rumors as they're are most of the time wrong, and the press often shows things bigger than they actually are.

[spiritedenergy]

The drivers in this city are more scary than the people wandering the streets, imo.

exactly, i think most of the fears are truly irrationals and they reflect the fear of meeting people, of walking instead of driving. Suburbanites should know that there is more to life than their plastic bubblegum neighborhoods.

[Wooster]

DTES is only really scary at night. During the day it is fine. However, with some friends I accidentally turned into the wrong area walking around at night into this really fucked up place in DTES - I quite literally feared for my life. It was FUCKED UP.

In Calgary, not really. There are some places that can be a tad intimidating right around the Drop in Centre - but generally I don't feel unsafe or fearful.

[SHOFEAR]

I made a late night walk through the DTES years ago on a high school trip with two other guys and two girls. Wasn't really worried, everyone seemed to uncoordinated to do anything anyways.

[big W]

Double Post

[big W]

LMFAO! I was just in Edmonton last week for a wedding, and I had the pleasure of "accidentally" ending up on 118th, driving down it at night from Norhtlands to beyond NAIT. (Wrong turn off the Yellowhead HWY). It looked a little rough, and the billboards annoucing a Syphilus Warning, along with the "This Community Does Not Tolerate Prostitution" signs on ever streat corner made for an intersting drive.

As a side note, there was a 7-11 on 118th that had the cheapest gas anywhere in the whole city. If that is the worst place in Edmonton, then that's not so bad.

Wow you made it out of our hood alive to tell the tale :jester: :jester:

I just think its funny anyone Strongly Agrees that they are afraid to walk in parts of their own city. I can't think of any place that I would be afraid to walk and apperently almost 70% of us are.

[240glt]

I've heard and read crime in Edmonton is out of control in the whole inner city, not only downtown...

As an inner city home owner who lives close to the notorious 118th avenue strip I can, with some degree of authority, say that is not true. Is there crime ? yes. Out of control ? I'd say that is a gross exageration.

If 118th ave is "the worst" area of Edmonton, then all Edmontonians should consider themselves lucky.

Having seem the slums of Detroit, Chicago and Baltimore, I would say there is nothing in Canada (with the possible exception of the four block radius around hastings & main) that even comes close.

[Kilgore Trout]

i have yet to visit a part of montreal that has actually scared me. there are neighbourhoods with tough-looking people but in my experience they just leave you alone.

of course, when you're wandering around these sketchy areas taking photos, that changes the dynamic, and sometimes i worry that someone will steal my camera. but nothing like that has ever happened.

[TheMeltyMan]

^ the only place in montreal people tell me to avoid is Point St Charles. Other than the supposed "danger" in that neighborhood it seems like there is nothing else to worry about except maybe looking too anglo in some places.

[Jarrod]

Nope, I am not scared anywhere in Calgary.

[vid]

2O6t1vo5IVA

My neighbourhood. I love the way this guy responds to comments. He doesn't come up with a solution but rather tells people to fuck off and suck his balls! Without a doubt, the most immature 54 year old on earth.

Anyway, that shows what this area is like. If it was at night you'd see the occasional prostitute and homeless kids causing problems. From my experiences, it looks worse than it is.

[401_King]

^ wow, those areas are a dump man

[vid]

I know. It isn't that bad now, the first shot by the BIA HQ is cleaned up, I have never seen it that dirty. He probably took it on the morning before the garbage trucks went through or something. A lot of times when slumlords evict a tenant and the tenant leaves furniture behind, they just stick it into the street thinking the garbage trucks will take it away. It's disgraceful. It was filmed in March I think, just after snow melted, and we always have a lot of litter at that time when snow melts and releases things people throw into it.

The city actually had YouTube remove that video the first time it came up, but he reloaded it again a few days later and it's stayed since then. It does make the city look bad, but 1: every city has areas like that - this example is the worst of the worst and the creator of the video knows that. 2: It shows citizens that we can't just sit at home and whine about all the litter. It isn't going to clean itself up, people have to get off their lazy asses and do something.

I really with a more mature person had made this clip, but what are ya gonna do?

[Blitz]

I've been through the worst neighbourhoods in Detroit many times

[Cambridgite]

Thunder Bay looks like it could use a clean up. :yes:

[vid]

I put together some stats for that part of town


TRACT POP AREA DENSITY
0005.00 4,603 1.70 2,707/Km
0006.00 935 0.45 2,094/Km
0007.00 5,088 1.48 3,445/Km
0010.02 3,407 1.32 2,590/Km

FW CORE 14,033 4.95 2,835/Km

Population increased by 4 between 2001 and 2006 ☺

Unoccupied dwellings: 530; 7.4% of 7,130
1.8% higher than city average of 5.6% of 49,023
0.1% lower than CMA average of 7.5% of 55.582
1.0% lower than Ontario average of 8.4% of 4,972,869


Tract 0007.00, the one I live in, is the densest census tract in Northern Ontario. The next densest is in North Bay, about 20 people less. They are the only two tracts with more than 3000/km

[Cambridgite]

I put together some stats for that part of town


TRACT POP AREA DENSITY
0005.00 4,603 1.70 2,707/Km
0006.00 935 0.45 2,094/Km
0007.00 5,088 1.48 3,445/Km
0010.02 3,407 1.32 2,590/Km

FW CORE 14,033 4.95 2,835/Km

Population increased by 4 between 2001 and 2006 ☺

Unoccupied dwellings: 530; 7.4% of 7,130
1.8% higher than city average of 5.6% of 49,023
0.1% lower than CMA average of 7.5% of 55.582
1.0% lower than Ontario average of 8.4% of 4,972,869


Tract 0007.00, the one I live in, is the densest census tract in Northern Ontario. The next densest is in North Bay, about 20 people less. They are the only two tracts with more than 3000/km

Dense doesn't necessarily mean ghetto.

[malek]

of course, when you're wandering around these sketchy areas taking photos, that changes the dynamic, and sometimes i worry that someone will steal my camera. but nothing like that has ever happened.

never had that feeling, and i have been wandering downtown very late with the my fat equipment in hand.

[MonkeyRonin]

I try not to venture into South-east North York, North Scarborough, and Centre-West Etobicoke. Total assault on the eyes. :(

Otherwise, the rest of the city is fine. Rexdale, Regent Park, Jane-Finch, etc. maybe aren't the safest places to sell drugs or do other gangster crap, but just as an outsider going for a stroll, there is nothing to worry about.

[vid]

Dense doesn't necessarily mean ghetto.

I know. If StatsCan would release the income statistics I would include those. The area is one of the poorest in the city, with the average income around 39,000$/yr. Tract 6 has an average annual income of 21,000$/yr.

[Jay in Cowtown]

I don't have a problem with any areas in Calgary

Me either... lol, I never go east of Deerfoot!

[Policy Wonk]

As far as Calgary goes the eastern core is rough, but I have also had just about as much trouble in various parts of the Northeast, especially with the whitetrash who listen to too much 50 Cent set.

[flar]

No need to be afraid anywhere in Canada. Too many people are scared too easily. Fear is a natural instinct that comes easy to people, especially if they have kids. The media just exploits that part of human nature.

[e909]

I wouldn't say I'm scared, but I tend to avoid the area in Edmonton between 104 Ave and 137 Ave, especially along Alberta Ave.

[salvius]

There is certainly no neighbourhood in TO that I'd be afraid to be in. I've been down Jane and Finch early in the morning (3-4 AM) many times, and never understood why anyone would feel unsafe there.

But does that mean I would go to ANY part of the city and not be scared? No. I wouldn't touch certain alleyways early in the morning hours, nor would I be too crazy going down some parks around the same time. I mean, honestly, does anyone feel 100% safe everywhere in any bigger city at all times?

[newflyer]

I've heard downtown Winnipeg is a dangerous place after dark, there are lots of Native gangs that like to beat up everyone who comes on their "turf". not sure if this is true, it's just what I hear.

Downtown Calgary can be a little shady after dark, especially the east village, lots and lots of crackheads down there.

I lived in downtown Winnipeg for nearly 6 years and would often take a night walk around downtown. I had never found it dangerous. I would commonly walk down to Second Cup on Graham or down Broadway ... very safe in my books. I would be much more comfortable walking around Winnipeg's downtown than I would be anywhere near the East Village in Calgary. That area is as bad as I've seen, although I have heard that East Hastings has become a very bad area as well.

[ArtRambo]

You people are crazy, Edmonton is the most dangerous city in Canada. Basically you should avoid the north side, the east end, Millwoods, Jasper Place, Strathcona and of course Downtown, if you want to be safe. The city is completely controlled by gangs, Hells Angels operate with impunity, just yesterday I saw one wearing his colours driving down Whyte Avenue in broad daylight, don't we have racketeering laws. There are even reports they have infiltrated the police. They had to get an APC to fight the gangs, but the Ukrainian Mafia has way bigger guns, they are reputed to have nukes. Last year hockey fans became such a menace that they were talking about calling in the Army. All the cabs here are run by Al Qaeda, there are nothing but bars and liquor stores, beggars line Jasper Avenue, the parks are full of homeless people and there are whores everywhere. Dogs run wild in the streets, people get shot for no reason and it happens all the time. I think the city is out of control.

[boden]

Belleville is as safe as houses.

[matt602]

Hamilton is fine contrary to what most people think. They see the dirty steeltown image and then instantly figure "well obviously theres got to be a huge crime problem in a city that looks like that". That's simply not true. The only neighbourhood that I can recall as "sketchy" is parts of Barton St. at night. Even still you'll be fine so long as you walk quickly and keep to yourself. During the day, you're safe ANYWHERE in Hamilton. Even on Barton St. Yah sure, theres hookers, crackheads and bums... but they keep to themselves, they have an agenda of their own.

Toronto on the other hand... back in the area I grew up in, is very safe... however the parts already mentioned I wouldn't even drive through unless I absolutely had to.

[e909]

You people are crazy, Edmonton is the most dangerous city in Canada. Basically you should avoid the north side, the east end, Millwoods, Jasper Place, Strathcona and of course Downtown, if you want to be safe. The city is completely controlled by gangs, Hells Angels operate with impunity, just yesterday I saw one wearing his colours driving down Whyte Avenue in broad daylight, don't we have racketeering laws. There are even reports they have infiltrated the police. They had to get an APC to fight the gangs, but the Ukrainian Mafia has way bigger guns, they are reputed to have nukes. Last year hockey fans became such a menace that they were talking about calling in the Army. All the cabs here are run by Al Qaeda, there are nothing but bars and liquor stores, beggars line Jasper Avenue, the parks are full of homeless people and there are whores everywhere. Dogs run wild in the streets, people get shot for no reason and it happens all the time. I think the city is out of control.
What you said has some basic truth to a lot of parts, but don't exaggerate. Al-Qaeda doesn't own Yellow Cab, the playoff "riots" weren't really riots, and the Ukrainian Mafia in Edmonton doesn't have nuclear bombs.

[Only The Lonely..]

It's interesting that people in Regina are more scared of their city than folks in Toon town.

[vanman]

The DTES is definitely fucked up, but it is not as bad as it looks. For the most part, as other people have stated, the crackheads and junkies keep to themselves. It's as if in their own fucked up state they can tell who is one of them and who is not. I have had the 'pleasure' of having to walk through there a couple of times in the middle of the night and never have had any problems. I would feel more unsafe at either New West skytrain station or Surrey Central station at night: Crackheads interspersed with drunk rowdies where you would be more likely to have to scrap somebody then DTES.

[240glt]

You people are crazy, Edmonton is the most dangerous city in Canada. Basically you should avoid the north side, the east end, Millwoods, Jasper Place, Strathcona and of course Downtown, if you want to be safe. The city is completely controlled by gangs, Hells Angels operate with impunity, just yesterday I saw one wearing his colours driving down Whyte Avenue in broad daylight, don't we have racketeering laws. There are even reports they have infiltrated the police. They had to get an APC to fight the gangs, but the Ukrainian Mafia has way bigger guns, they are reputed to have nukes. Last year hockey fans became such a menace that they were talking about calling in the Army. All the cabs here are run by Al Qaeda, there are nothing but bars and liquor stores, beggars line Jasper Avenue, the parks are full of homeless people and there are whores everywhere. Dogs run wild in the streets, people get shot for no reason and it happens all the time. I think the city is out of control.


I'll bet you live in a bubble!

You don't have a clue what you are talking about.

[Xelebes]

You people are crazy, Edmonton is the most dangerous city in Canada. Basically you should avoid the north side, the east end, Millwoods, Jasper Place, Strathcona and of course Downtown, if you want to be safe. The city is completely controlled by gangs, Hells Angels operate with impunity, just yesterday I saw one wearing his colours driving down Whyte Avenue in broad daylight, don't we have racketeering laws. There are even reports they have infiltrated the police. They had to get an APC to fight the gangs, but the Ukrainian Mafia has way bigger guns, they are reputed to have nukes. Last year hockey fans became such a menace that they were talking about calling in the Army. All the cabs here are run by Al Qaeda, there are nothing but bars and liquor stores, beggars line Jasper Avenue, the parks are full of homeless people and there are whores everywhere. Dogs run wild in the streets, people get shot for no reason and it happens all the time. I think the city is out of control.

:haha:

[O-Town Hockey]

Even those areas don't look too bad compared to when my dad took the wrong turn in Tampa and had a detour in Detroit.

Wow that must have been some kind of wrong turn in Tampa if you ended up in Detroit! ;)

I've been to every city mentioned here on this forum and I agree that Canadian cities in general are very safe. The neighbourhood that I have been to that scared me the most would be Vancouver's DTES. That place just looks dangerous (whether it is or not!). I would have to say that there is some kind of weird problem in Western Canada that people are naturally scared of the downtown core (this includes Winnipeg, Regina, Edmonton, and Calgary). I think it's mostly people who have lived in those cities their entire life and are put off but the recent influx of people to the West. I'm from Regina originally and I can't believe how scared my relatives are of going downtown. They hear about a stabbing on the news and then write off the entire place. Then I go downtown and it seems like a nice place and I don't feel threatened at all (not too many people though).

Worldwide, there are much sketchier places that I've been to including: The Bronx after dark (little white guy and his girlfriend walking to Yankee Stadium on a non-game day), the area around Rome Termini Station, and just about every area of Detroit that I've seen.

[Coldrsx]

I've heard and read crime in Edmonton is out of control in the whole inner city, not only downtown... again I do not trust completely these rumors as they're are most of the time wrong, and the press often shows things bigger than they actually are.

trust me...it is far from out of control...yes there is crime, but not much higher if at all than most major cities.

[Coldrsx]

You people are crazy, Edmonton is the most dangerous city in Canada. Basically you should avoid the north side, the east end, Millwoods, Jasper Place, Strathcona and of course Downtown, if you want to be safe. The city is completely controlled by gangs, Hells Angels operate with impunity, just yesterday I saw one wearing his colours driving down Whyte Avenue in broad daylight, don't we have racketeering laws. There are even reports they have infiltrated the police. They had to get an APC to fight the gangs, but the Ukrainian Mafia has way bigger guns, they are reputed to have nukes. Last year hockey fans became such a menace that they were talking about calling in the Army. All the cabs here are run by Al Qaeda, there are nothing but bars and liquor stores, beggars line Jasper Avenue, the parks are full of homeless people and there are whores everywhere. Dogs run wild in the streets, people get shot for no reason and it happens all the time. I think the city is out of control.

:tup: :worship:

[Cambridgite]

[QUOTE=O-Town Hockey;2861551]Wow that must have been some kind of wrong turn in Tampa if you ended up in Detroit! ;)

Yeah, Detroit and Tampa were 2 separate incidents ;) . In Detroit, it was a detour because the I-75 was under construction. Lots of empty lots and abandoned buildings, like a war zone. In Tampa, we just plain got lost and ended up in a mostly black neighborhood made up of shacks with barred windows. Neither experience was particularly cozy and I haven't seen anything of the sort on this side of the border.

[Blitz]

The thing about Detroit is, some neighbourhoods look horribly frightening because of all the burned out houses, but since there are no people in those areas there's no real reason to be afraid.

[keninhalifax]

Ottawa has a few neighbourhoods that might be on the dangerous side at night -- most of them are in the inner suburbs (e.g., Bayshore, South Keys). I'd be stupid to venture into these places alone at night because of the likelihood of being swarmed by a gang of 14 year-olds, but I will luckily never have to face that situation because there is nothing in these neighbourhoods that would ever attract me at night.

I agree with Kilgore Trout; when I am in "sketchy" areas of Ottawa, I worry more for my camera or my wallet than for myself. Then again, those of you who know me can attest to the fact that I am an intimidating-looking, Herculaenly-built, crazy apple of a man, so I might be better off than others in a similar situation.

[softee]

I put together some stats for that part of town


TRACT POP AREA DENSITY
0005.00 4,603 1.70 2,707/Km
0006.00 935 0.45 2,094/Km
0007.00 5,088 1.48 3,445/Km
0010.02 3,407 1.32 2,590/Km

FW CORE 14,033 4.95 2,835/Km

Population increased by 4 between 2001 and 2006 ☺

Unoccupied dwellings: 530; 7.4% of 7,130
1.8% higher than city average of 5.6% of 49,023
0.1% lower than CMA average of 7.5% of 55.582
1.0% lower than Ontario average of 8.4% of 4,972,869


Tract 0007.00, the one I live in, is the densest census tract in Northern Ontario. The next densest is in North Bay, about 20 people less. They are the only two tracts with more than 3000/km

Hey Vid, could you post a link to that census track with the North Bay info? I'd like to see what part of towns it's in.

[BlackRedGold]

The neighbourhood that I have been to that scared me the most would be Vancouver's DTES. That place just looks dangerous (whether it is or not!).

The scariest place I've experienced in Canada would be Algonquin Park. I'd like to think I'd have a chance if some junkie tried something with me in the DTES but when you're going through the Park at 2am, haven't seen a car in 45 minutes, pitch black except for you headlights, fighting to stay awake and you see the warning signs for moose every five minutes then if something popped out on to the road I'd just have to hope for the best because it would be out of my control.

[samne]

Nowhere I would be scared of.

Really, the "dangerous" or problem areas are inner suburb pockets of commie blocks. You have no reason to be there unless your visiting someone in the building.


There's probably the same if not more poverty in the inner city, but for whatever reason not as violent. The addicts are more visible but theyre dispersed throughout the inner city.

[WHISTLERINMUSKOKA]

It'd be interesting to see what this polls outcome would be in the U.S forum.

[Geofferson]

Being a 16 year old in calgary, i dont feel unsafe in any part of the city. I would rather not spend too much time along 7th avenue, near the drop in centre, or in marlborough/forest lawn by myself.

[Rusty van Reddick]

Being a 16 year old in calgary, i dont feel unsafe in any part of the city. I would rather not spend too much time along 7th avenue, near the drop in centre, or in marlborough/forest lawn by myself.

Young males between 16 and 22 have the greatest risk of victimization for nearly every crime in the criminal code except for sexual assault, which is almost never a "street crime" in the first place. I'm not saying that you should be terrified, but this idea that being a young male you're somehow less likely to be a crime victim is completely wrong. If you want a profile of a "random" crime victim, look in the mirror.

[vid]

Hey Vid, could you post a link to that census track with the North Bay info? I'd like to see what part of towns it's in.

Tract 7, just north of your downtown (Same as ours, number 7, north of Downtown)

http://www12.statcan.ca/english/census06/data/profiles/ct/CTdata.cfm?Lang=E&CTCODE=3633&CATYPE=CA

Population density per square kilometre 3,222.9

Not sure if this works, but here is the Density map. (http://geodepot.statcan.ca/GeoSearch2006/GeoSearch2006.jsp?minx=7141499.76193877&miny=1211998.18857143&maxx=7188308.97234693&maxy=1240490.75142857&LastImage=http://geodepot.statcan.ca/Diss/Output/GeoSearch2006_GEODEPOTFARM311644068348.gif&resolution=H&lang=E&switchTab=2)

Check out Toronto, it's just a sea of red. (Except for where the office towers are downtown, it's light orange, because not many people live in FCP.)

[PhilippeMtl]

^ the only place in montreal people tell me to avoid is Point St Charles. Other than the supposed "danger" in that neighborhood it seems like there is nothing else to worry about except maybe looking too anglo in some places.

I hope you are joking.

[MolsonExport]

the eastern stretch of Dundas in London is rather hairy.

[harls]

I ain't a-skerred of nuthin.

[nunuangel99]

You people are crazy, Edmonton is the most dangerous city in Canada. Basically you should avoid the north side, the east end, Millwoods, Jasper Place, Strathcona and of course Downtown, if you want to be safe. The city is completely controlled by gangs, Hells Angels operate with impunity, just yesterday I saw one wearing his colours driving down Whyte Avenue in broad daylight, don't we have racketeering laws. There are even reports they have infiltrated the police. They had to get an APC to fight the gangs, but the Ukrainian Mafia has way bigger guns, they are reputed to have nukes. Last year hockey fans became such a menace that they were talking about calling in the Army. All the cabs here are run by Al Qaeda, there are nothing but bars and liquor stores, beggars line Jasper Avenue, the parks are full of homeless people and there are whores everywhere. Dogs run wild in the streets, people get shot for no reason and it happens all the time. I think the city is out of control.

What a f****kin tool!

He must be criminally connected to have all this inside information :koko: ;)

[Kevin_foster]

^ Can you not sense the sarcasm in his statement? I was more surprised at the people that believe what he's saying :P

[nunuangel99]

^ Can you not sense the sarcasm in his statement? I was more surprised at the people that believe what he's saying :P

It's not that I believe what he's saying, but that he has always had negative connotations to all his postings, thus putting Edmonton into a bad light, even if it isn't true, not everyone knows this and perhaps believes some of it to be true!!

[kool maudit]

montreal looks sketchier than it is. there are sections of saint henri and the pointe that could serve as the backdrop for an early 90s rap video, but the streets themselves are pretty calm. i'd have some hesitation walking around parts of saint michel or the north end on a hot summer night, but not really.

in the 90s, saint laurent and sainte catherine had a distinct and actual edge to it that is gone now.

frontenac metro can get jumpy.

[jeffwhit]

After spending an afternoon in the Flint, Michigan Greyhound station i thought nothing could scare me anymore, but walking through the East village (Cgy) among crackheads etc still gives me the willies.

[TheMeltyMan]

I hope you are joking.

Hell, even I get a bit disgusted near Atwater metro. I want to slap a scarf on them and plop them on a rusty bike.

[cornholio]

The DTES like vanman said is realy safe, the junkies just stick to themselves and if once in a blue moon theres a problem with one of them then you just put them back in their place...their used to being someones bitch be it their dealers, the police or some of the general publics. But I do understand why some of the older crowd might be scared, even though there is a good police presence(always a cop on the corner of Main and Hastings just standing there, and obviously a cop shop a block down from there). By the way there is nothing like the DTES in the states(im talking about the open drug use and number of cracked out crack heads in one area). One other reason why the DTES is so bad is because alot of the scum from the rest of Canada ends up here. I swear to you that half the panhandlers and squeegie kids in Vancouver speak French.

[jeffwhit]

^^I remember a couple years ago someone posted an astonishing photo thread of the DTES including a picture of a strung out junkie chasing the photographer down an alley with a pipe.

[MonkeyRonin]

It's not that I believe what he's saying, but that he has always had negative connotations to all his postings, thus putting Edmonton into a bad light, even if it isn't true, not everyone knows this and perhaps believes some of it to be true!!

Honestly, I don't think you need to be too concerned about those who would actually believe that. Nukes and Al Qaida, of course. :haha:

^ the only place in montreal people tell me to avoid is Point St Charles. Other than the supposed "danger" in that neighborhood it seems like there is nothing else to worry about except maybe looking too anglo in some places.

What is "looking too anglo" supposed to mean?


But, now that we're talking about Montreal...where exactally are some of its "ghettos"? You always here about Downtown Eastside in Vancouver, Jane-Finch in Toronto, etc. but never about any location in particular for Montreal. Is the crime and/or poverty there just more evenly dispersed?

[kool maudit]

But, now that we're talking about Montreal...where exactally are some of its "ghettos"? You always here about Downtown Eastside in Vancouver, Jane-Finch in Toronto, etc. but never about any location in particular for Montreal. Is the crime and/or poverty there just more evenly dispersed?


the pointe was for a long time one of canada's poorest neighbourhoods - and it may still be.

montreal's most violent (and the city isn't terribly crime-ridden) areas are sort of similar to jane-finch - inner suburb-type areas in the north.

[e909]

^ Can you not sense the sarcasm in his statement? I was more surprised at the people that believe what he's saying :P
The problem is half of it is true. Loses its sarcasm value.

[mezzanine]

there are sections of saint henri and the pointe that could serve as the backdrop for an early 90s rap video

Yeah, if I was surrounded by ppl in MC Hammer pants, that would scare the shit out of me....;)

In my experience, I feel generally "not unsafe" in the DTES. There are a lot of people going thru the neighbourhood, club-goers, artist types, etc. so It is generally ok. I wouldn't look for trouble (e.g. flash a fancy camera when I'm by myself at night, or poke around alleys), and a past warning about anyone really tuned up on drugs and freaking out are germaine.

You have a greater chance for a random ass-kicking at the surrey skytrain stations at night, but even that has improved recently, with ongoing denisfication/gentrification...

[miketoronto]

I have walked many areas of Toronto including the dreaded Sherbourne Street and Jarvis Streets.
Its really not to bad. Things can happen, but overall its not bad bad bad.

That being said, I don't feel the safest in quiet areas at night. And I find quiet residential streets a little unnerving at night, even walking from my bus stop to my house. And thats basically because its just so dead. You don't see anyone.

I am pretty much use to the city at night though. I use to work till 3AM, and I would be standing downtown waiting for buses, and walking to my house, etc.

But you still gotta have street smarts.

[dubiousmike]

This is Calgary's supposedly prostitute & crack-addict infested East Village.

It's really only the pathways and sidewalks immediately adjacent to the Drop-In Centre and the Salvation Army where things go on. The neighbourhood is mainly just parking lots and seniors homes.

http://img157.imageshack.us/img157/246/eastvillagebm4.jpg

[Lyle]

:previous: great, now I know where to score!

More seriously, as a Montrealer, I have yet to feel a sense of threat walking anywhere in the city, at any time of night. I haven't gone out late partying in Montreal North, mind you, where reportedly there is a concentration of Haitian street gangs. I might feel different but have no personal experience to base that suspicion on.

I grew up in many different spots out west, however, and have encountered many random acts of violence in my youth that I have been lucky enough to avoid here. In Montreal, I lived in St-Henri, which is beside Pointe St-Charles and which was at that time just as poor. No problems. The Pointe, btw, is about a third english-speaking, so for the uninformed opinion previously, you will have no problems with your visible minority status there (ie, the square head).

[Hardhatdan]

I'm afraid of the big bad wolf.

[MonkeyRonin]

Hey, I know! Let's turn this into a "post your shitty neighbourhoods" thread! :banana:

Regent Park
http://img130.imageshack.us/img130/5475/regentparktoronto1ml9.jpg

gangstas!
http://img513.imageshack.us/img513/6756/regentparktn6.jpg

Jane-Finch
http://img129.imageshack.us/img129/4687/janefinchhy8.jpg

hmm
http://img530.imageshack.us/img530/6208/realtorontonz4.jpg

Rexdale in the distance
http://img130.imageshack.us/img130/4393/northyorkdr8.jpg

Jamestown. While not really a bad neighbourhood, it has a reputation as such, and in a way is the vernacular "Toronto ghetto" (just how many rap videos were shot here?)
http://img508.imageshack.us/img508/6705/jamestown2ce1.jpg

Same case here...not really sure where this is, but looks kinda crappy. And its an awesome shot.
http://img186.imageshack.us/img186/3298/populationoverloadbyvxtsd0.jpg


Oh, and here's some DTES. Wicked.
http://img263.imageshack.us/img263/879/image7nk5.gif

[MolsonExport]

:previous: great, now I know where to score!

More seriously, as a Montrealer, I have yet to feel a sense of threat walking anywhere in the city, at any time of night. I haven't gone out late partying in Montreal North, mind you, where reportedly there is a concentration of Haitian street gangs. I might feel different but have no personal experience to base that suspicion on.

I grew up in many different spots out west, however, and have encountered many random acts of violence in my youth that I have been lucky enough to avoid here. In Montreal, I lived in St-Henri, which is beside Pointe St-Charles and which was at that time just as poor. No problems. The Pointe, btw, is about a third english-speaking, so for the uninformed opinion previously, you will have no problems with your visible minority status there (ie, the square head).


I lived in downtown Montreal for about 7 years, and spent most of the rest of my life in that great city in the burbs. Very rarely did I not feel safe in Montreal.

However, the area around Walkley (NDG) and RDP-St. Michel has started to get a little threatening.

The Point? Never once felt that it was particularly dangerous.

A dangerous place might be out in Waste-Island, out in Ste. Anne de Bellevue, once the bars close, and the ugly anglo, bud-drinking assholes from Annie's Pub go lookin for a fight.

[Lyle]

A dangerous place might be out in Waste-Island, out in Ste. Anne de Bellevue, once the bars close, and the ugly anglo, bud-drinking assholes from Annie's Pub go lookin for a fight.

Who you callin' ugly? Step outside, buddy.

[Cambridgite]

As for Canadian hoods, this one definitely has to be up there. I'm assuming most of the people in this group, including myself, have no experience living in a place like this, but I'd say it's a hell of a lot more dangerous if you're living there and you're involved with the drugs, gangs, etc. As a passer-by or even a visitor, you're probably okay. It's a bit of a long video, but it does really give you a look into what life is like in these places.

http://www.jane-finch.com/videos/fifthestate.htm

[salvius]

^ well, definitely a bit sensationalist; and yeah, trouble at Jane and Finch happens a lot more easily if you're looking for it.

My girlfriend lived at Jane and Finch for three years. I visited her there very often, almost living there part-time. I've walked most of those streets at pretty much every hour of day or night... I'm also a scrawny white guy and my gf a skinny white gal, so if someone's easy to rob or beat up, it'd be us. But nothing ever happened to me that was even remotely threatening.

By far the worst that I've ever seen is a white supremacist pushing a black girl into a ditch at J&F (how long did he think he could last like that in that nabe, I've no idea).

We also once heard a friend of a friend got mugged on Shoreham late at night, but that's about it.

No, I feel much more creeped out late at night at Dundas and Jarvis, though even there, it's more to do with being 'uneasy' than anything else.

[Kevin_foster]

I don't think I would walk alone Stony Plain Rd in some parts at night either.

I wouldnt want to walk Downtown East Side alone at night either.

I wouldn't want to walk alone some parts of the river valley late night alone...

118th ave looks like heaven compared to some parts of east downtown EDM, IMO.

But in all honesty, Edmonton looks like a Catholic wedding compared to some of the larger American cities.

It's strange. In some larger European cities I felt safe walking around at night (areas I've been told are "bad"); London, Rome, even Amsterdam outside the Red Light District. I've always felt pretty safe... maybe it's because I'm on vacation and am a little more relaxed? However, some American cities I've been to, I've been a little more unnerved. Strange, that.

[miketoronto]

The thing with Jane-Finch is that the "bad" section is really just the high-rise public housing apartment buildings right near the intersection of Jane and Finch. But if you go just a block or two in from the main roads, its all single family housing that still houses a large number of Italian families, etc.
Those areas are very well kept and safe.

So it gets a bad rap, but the bad spot is really just Jane and Finch and the buildings in that area. But a couple blocks in like I said, and you are in suburban heaven :0

My cousin lives there and its totally not bad in their subdivision. Actually its like that in most of suburban Toronto's areas. My subdivision knock wood is pretty quiet and has had very little problems over the years. I can't tell you the last time a house was robbed, thats how long ago its been. But cross the park into the high-rise public housing building across from my subdivision, and they are always having problems.

[cornholio]

The thing with Jane-Finch is that the "bad" section is really just the high-rise public housing apartment buildings right near the intersection of Jane and Finch. But if you go just a block or two in from the main roads, its all single family housing that still houses a large number of Italian families, etc.
Those areas are very well kept and safe.

So it gets a bad rap, but the bad spot is really just Jane and Finch and the buildings in that area. But a couple blocks in like I said, and you are in suburban heaven :0

My cousin lives there and its totally not bad in their subdivision.

So are you saying suburbs are safe, well kept and quote "heaven", while dense apartment buildings along a main street are bad:tup:

just messin with you:haha:

[cornholio]

Heres some pics of DTES that i found, but pictures only give you half the story.
http://media.nowpublic.com/images/a7/f/a7f85ad0cf7a6a1fbd95549ca9a3732b.jpg
http://media.nowpublic.com/images/c5/a/c5a5d5a2ed477629db8c28cc6d1658c7.jpg
http://media.nowpublic.com/images/18/7/1874ff39e9354bc40704fc229bba83a4.jpg
http://media.nowpublic.com/images/81/9/81936fee86cb05cdf50aa16a80035c71.jpg
http://media.nowpublic.com/images/6c/2/6c24903a22eec2448a6eb69f94e874ed.jpg
http://media.nowpublic.com/images/be/e/bee9b6bf36ba2756d6f6ce59392d7457.jpg
http://media.nowpublic.com/images/94/9/94952dbb76b4a9d6982f9e677b9be6f0.jpg
http://media.nowpublic.com/images/dc/f/dcfb092cb4aefc43662571cc56e5242a.jpg
http://media.nowpublic.com/images/0d/5/0d5db2ce2f09d2d6f4a66d0533d0a0fd.jpg
http://farm1.static.flickr.com/131/420859642_470ca6ac1c.jpg?v=0
http://farm1.static.flickr.com/168/398554523_a60e757499.jpg?v=0
http://farm1.static.flickr.com/188/433982554_c9449cd9f4.jpg?v=0
http://farm1.static.flickr.com/127/335283447_d7a263e7df.jpg?v=0