[PhxSprawler]

:previous: Although old town scottsdale has desert landscaping, including cacti without thorns, and manages to provide shade using awnings and native trees, I don't think downtown Phoenix can incorporate it in its current state. I rather like the palm trees and would prefer more shade and some weather protection using awnings and native trees. It would be nice to avoid the sun and the rain. :(

God forbid you even suggest taking away the suicide lane on 7th street or 7th ave!

[HooverDam]

^ Sahuaros don't provide any shade. They are also expensive as hell, and a pain (pun intended) to move.

Better to plant some big-assed shade trees if you ask me.

--don

Palm trees don't provide any shade either, thats what I meant. I'd rather people plant saguaros than palms if they are going to plant a purely decorative, non shade providing plant.

I'll never understand the whole "desert plants are fine for the 'burbs, but not the central city" mentality, if you think desert plants are ugly, why live in a desert? Obviously maybe you can't move or what have you, but I for one lived in another (non desert) state for four years and missed its beauty very much, I'd like to see much more desert scaping done in the Central City. All of that being said, it does seem like desert scaping can also be done very poorly most of the time, and just end up being loads of gravel and very little shade, but thats not really what I'm referring to.


God forbid you even suggest taking away the suicide lane on 7th street or 7th ave!

Do you really like them? I just wrote Tom Simplot an email saying I hope they get rid of them. They are dangerous, they just seem to confuse people and they make it impossible to get into local businesses. I'd much rather see say 2 lanes going north on 7th ave and 3 going south and vice versa on 7th St (or whichever would work out better) with large planters in the middle that would 1. look nice, 2. increase safety, 3. slightly reduce noise, 4. slightly reduce heat.

[PHX31]

/\ I would like them to get rid of the "suicide lanes" on 7th and 7th... but I don't want to see planters. They should restripe them to be normal two-way left turn lanes.

It would cost next to nothing (simple restripe) as you wouldn't have to construct the curb and irrigation system for planters and the landscaping itself, and with all of the driveways and access to businesses there are existing, the two-way left turn lane would provide access everywhere. (they basically already are two-way left turn lanes during the off-peak hours).

[PhxSprawler]

Do you really like them? I just wrote Tom Simplot an email saying I hope they get rid of them. They are dangerous, they just seem to confuse people and they make it impossible to get into local businesses. I'd much rather see say 2 lanes going north on 7th ave and 3 going south and vice versa on 7th St (or whichever would work out better) with large planters in the middle that would 1. look nice, 2. increase safety, 3. slightly reduce noise, 4. slightly reduce heat.

I actually do like them when I have to use one of the 7's during rush hour. Also, there is nothing that gets my blood boiling like some asshole using the lane to make a left.

Unselfishly, I see your point, and believe planters and turn lanes could be incorporated. I live in a suburban community with the planters, and I love the curb appeal they offer in my hood.

[andrewkfromaz]

Palm trees are good for one thing: breaking up the height of a building to pedestrian scale so that you can stand next to a skyscraper and not feel like an ant. Additionally, palms are easier to maintain, durable in all weather, and use a moderate amount of water. They're cheap and they grow fast, and they can look nice, when used correctly. I think some palms belong downtown, despite the counter-arguments. I do think natural shade has a huge role to play in offering shade to pedestrians everywhere, downtown or in a suburban parking lot. I just feel that landscaping palettes should not be mixed. Keep historically accurate turf/big deciduous trees/perennials separate from decomposed granite/mesquite/cacti. There may be room for both, but not at the same place. Some kind of hard boundary is needed.

[nbrindley]

:previous: I'm not even going to pretend I know how to attach this image, but here's a close-up of the proposed artwork.

http://s101.photobucket.com/albums/m57/kevininlb/?action=view&current=ASUcivicspace-artstructure.jpg

Edit: I'm dumb. :(

kevininlb, your problem is that you are not using the correct URL from photobucket. you are using the URL of the webpage displaying the picture you want, not the URL of the picture itself. I took the liberty of taking a print-screen of your photobucket to illustrate how to do it (if you object, let me know and I will remove it).

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v685/nbrindley/photobucket_example.jpg

When you are looking at your album, you just want to click on the field that I have so professionally circled, this will automatically copy the URL of the picture to your clipboard (you will see a little message appear for a second saying "Copied"). It is already properly formatted to display on this forum (vBulletin forums, such as this one, use tags to tell the forum software that you want it to display the picture instead of just showing it as a link). Then just paste the URL into your message and you will be good to go.

Also, for further info, if you want to post a photo from the web (not necessarily from photobucket), copy the url of the photo, and when you are composing your post, click on the little icon that looks like a mountain ([IMG]http://forum.skyscraperpage.com/images_pb/editor/insertimage.gif) and paste the URL into the dialog box that appears, this will add the [IMG] tags for you.

[kevininlb]

:previous: Okay, cool. Really glad I didn't post that penis shot I was seriously thinking of putting there. :haha:

[PhxSprawler]

:previous: Okay, cool. Really glad I didn't post that penis shot I was seriously thinking of putting there. :haha:

awwww... :shrug:

[Upward]

haha... if anyone tries to view the top-level directory of my photo host, all they see is this: :banana:

Anyway, back on topic, I am fed up with idiotic ineffectual suburban shade structures. There are some stupid ones in Phoenix, but just be thankful you're not yet suffering the problem that is running rampant in Orange County. They like to build an overhang that consists of nothing but horizontal beams, so it provides essentially zero shade (except for some narrow strips too small to do anything). The student center here at UC Irvine has been completely redone. The new Starbucks is already open, and features a large patio with no shade (even though the whole thing is under this, um, structure). The main portion of the student center has virtually no shade in the outdoor space, also because of those monstrosities.

And on the topic of 7th St./Ave., I think they should be left as they are. Yes, the suicide lanes are confusing and dangerous, but that's how cities are. When you start making everything manicured and homogenized and simple to use, you end up with a sterile suburb. Those lanes are necessary because the two streets have to serve as quasi-freeways during rush hour. Because the 17 and 51 skirt around the edges of downtown, all the people living in the central corridor in between them need to use surface streets to access downtown. Trust me, I know all about it, because I lived right off 7th St. just north of Thunderbird until I was 18 (and my parents live there still). 7th St. was THE way to get everywhere. I took the bus up and down it for 4 years of high school (I didn't get a car until I was in college).

[combusean]

^ The suicide lanes are so dangerous I only see a few drivers ever use them. Since traffic that would normally use the center lane to turn left has to turn right, flip a bitch, and head back out, it creates a whole lot of spillover traffic in the neighborhood--that I think is the biggest qualm the people in the adjoining neighborhoods have.

[CANUC]

^Thank you! My sentiments exactly, I hate those odd ball lanes and the fact that they are only used in this manner in pre-designated hours and not all the time just adds to the confusion. If they were fixed lanes with an understood traffic flow i.e. permanent one way lanes as opposed to this on again off again schedule they might serve their purpose but they don’t. They cause many motorist to ‘right hook’ into neighboring streets and then cross over 7th St or 7th Ave in order to access a street they would have otherwise accessed simply by using a left turn. Many numb nuts will also simply break in the center lane and use it as a left turn anyways, this causes two things; it greatly increasing the potential for an accident and it negates the idea of alleviating traffic congestion because cars have to stop behind the vehicle making the left turn. I mean if anyone has used these lanes during rush hour tell me that arriving at and crossing an intersection while using these lanes isn’t a bit unnerving. The potential for someone coming in the opposite direction to either not understand or misread the signs could be recipe for a serious head on collision.

[PHX31]

Yeah, They should just make them two-way left turn lanes. There can't be THAT much traffic. They should restripe it into a center two-way left turn lane, and time the signals so people "commuting" don't have to stop as often. But I'm thinking it's just not that bad, they wouldn't have to time the signals, and if for an hour out of the day the road has a poor level of service, so be it. Safety should be paramount.

[combusean]

The reversible lanes are a relic from the 1970's when the 51 wasn't even built in Phoenix and the 17 hadn't been widened at least once or twice. They are but one stale example of Streets' imperial demands for traffic efficiency at all cost--if the 7's were actually unwidened along with larger sidewalks and bike lanes, it might encourage more urban/transit-friendly development.

It would be a good project for after light rail is complete. With Central Avenue in pieces, tearing up the 7's at the same time would be a nightmare.

[kevininlb]

The mayor has a very upbeat article about the civic space in today's Republic. Can't find the link, but it mentions a website with renderings of the park (previously posted). Here it is:

http://phoenix.gov//PRL/civicspa.html

Also mentions that "rebuilding" of Patriots Square begins in "a few weeks."

[HX_Guy]

What section of the Republic was it in?

[PHX_PD]

Here's the entire article:

My Turn: Civic space to provide key element downtown lacks
Phil Gordon and Phil Richards
Aug. 15, 2007 07:00 AM

To have a great downtown, you absolutely need housing, retail, high-rises, restaurants and cultural amenities. But to make it all work, you need to thoughtfully and deliberately include an appropriate amount of open space, artfully woven into the mix. And for cities, that means "civic space" - such as parks.

When I first became mayor, I promised we would rebuild Patriots Square Park to be truly worthy of its name. In a few weeks, that process thankfully begins.

But beyond Patriots Park, I also noted that Phoenix has always lacked the kind of "defining amenity" that all great cities have. With our new downtown civic space, a 2.7-acre park that is a key component in the renaissance of downtown Phoenix, we will have that defining amenity.

It will provide crucial, shaded open space and serve as the connection between the downtown campus of Arizona State University, the University of Arizona Medical College, emerging residential housing to the west, and the thousands of employees who work nearby. Neighboring Central Station and Metro light rail will provide easy access to the park from all directions.

When Phoenix voters approved the bond proposition in 2006 to fund this park, it was clear they understood that a new, uniquely urban and vibrant public space was not just desirable, but critical. Over a period of several months, residents, the universities and the business community joined the Parks Board in a very public process to create a master plan for the park. Dozens of comments at meetings, e-mails and phone calls led to a master plan concept called "Urban Weave" - which you can see at phoenix.gov/PRL/parksdev.html.

Urban Weave creates interplay between the surrounding environment and the park's multifunctional spaces, in which visitors can simultaneously enjoy a variety of activities. These areas are connected, both visually and physically, through the use of linear design elements such as sculpted landscape bands and pedestrian walkways - woven together like the individual threads of a beautiful fabric. The design seeks to make a seamless visual connection between the park and the surrounding buildings and spaces along First and Central avenues. This concept provides a literal reflection of a vibrant urban community - a diverse yet interwoven and cohesive space that will bring together students, residents, downtown workers and visitors.


• We have advocated for more shade - and this space delivers. Layers of shade figure prominently in the park's design. Trees will be chosen for their ability to provide shade. Appealing, man-made structures will provide additional shade to key areas of the park. An interactive, conservation-sensitive water feature will make this an attractive place for kids and will contribute to the park's ability to provide a respite from heat and sun. In this way it will set the tone for the new direction of downtown - as a place where development incorporates green space and shade to improve livability.


• We are committed to community gathering places - and this space delivers. Other design elements will enhance the park as a premier gathering spot. The parks modular design elements provide for a fixed performance space and maximum flexibility to host a variety of cultural and special events. Soon, we will all enjoy passive seating areas and chessboards, movies in the park, and art exhibits.

A vibrant public space is at the heart of all great urban centers. It's one element we have truly been lacking in Phoenix. But not anymore. We will soon have a downtown civic space truly worthy of the first great city to emerge in the 21st century.

[HX_Guy]

Thanks for the article.

It looks like construction on the Civic Space should start about October 8th and go through November 2008. It will be great to see another downtown site under construction, and CityScape should probably be getting underway around the same time.

[Vicelord John]

^ The suicide lanes are so dangerous I only see a few drivers ever use them. Since traffic that would normally use the center lane to turn left has to turn right, flip a bitch, and head back out, it creates a whole lot of spillover traffic in the neighborhood--that I think is the biggest qualm the people in the adjoining neighborhoods have.

makes me think you don't know how to use them. You don't have to turn right and flip a bitch at all. It just takes planning ahead, they only place you cant turn left is at a light, so for example if you are traveling north on 7th street and want to head west on thomas, turn left on roanoke, then right on 5th and left on thomas. Pretty god damn simple, but most of you guys would never get it, brains are too small.:haha: jk

And I'm reading that article wondering what mayor gordon plans to do with that 2.7 acre space that will make it so great, you know, something all great cities have. I'm thinking he plans on trumping Millennium Park, Balboa Park, and Central Park, all in one shot!

Get over yourself, Gordon, your ideas are and always have been half baked. You promise us the world, and then give us something that most other cities could use to make the coutry jealous... but your version is always a piece of shit.

The new convention center, I just realized, has almost no retail, which will add to the dead zone and completely makes walking in that area intolerable. The new Sheraton, which is city funded, looks like someone ate red and yellow m n' ms and barfed them up. All of the light rail designs for stations are boring as all fucking hell, and the downtown streets now are so confusing to people that they are refusing to drive on them. Thanks for the antique train design, which I was super excited for until I saw the result. Thanks mayor Gordon, thanks for a truly remarkable list of failures and yet another one to come, in this "great civic space."

[HX_Guy]

Wow, not very happy with the way downtown is turing out, huh? I think you're being a bit picky, especially about the designs of the stations and the trains. Yea there are more "futuristic" light rail trains out there, but there are also worse ones and really the outside of the train isn't going to make or break light rail.

As for "downtown streets now are so confusing"...what makes them more confusing then they were before? The light rail construction? That is temporary and pretty much complete in the downtown core.

People are quick to criticize things but I'm not hearing any solutions. I agree that the Sheraton design is lacking, but from reading the articles, the shape of the building has a purpose (to have as little east/west exposure as possible) and the hotel is being paid by revenue bonds...as in paid back from the revenue the hotel makes. Making the Sheraton out of glass would probably have been an energy consumption nightmare but I do think they could have used a different color then the beige.

How would you go about the Civic Space since you don't seem to like the one being built? How would you have gone about the light rail stations and the trains? And how would you make the downtown streets less confusing?

[Vicelord John]

hx, I have no quarrles with the trains themselves, I think they are nice

the streets now have lanes on both sides of the tracks, but only for one block, then they end, as a right turn lane, but they start at the beginning of the block... making right turns a chore, business access an even bigger chore, and on street parking a thing of the past. Yes, it made business access easy if you are riding on the train, but if someone is driving through, and see something they want, they then have to find parking rather than the opportunity to park on the street in front of the store. eh, its hard to explain, but I walk down washington between 7th and central every day and watch people fucking try to figure it out. The curbs are already getting demolished and they are only weeks old.

take the civic space now, another missed opportunity. I guess in essence there is nothing wrong with it, but in that article nothing jumps out at me like its amazing. Chicago installed the bean, that big reflective piece, and has been a great, inexpensive hit with locals and tourists. Phoenix is too cheap to even do something like that. We need a mayor who will look at a project and think to himself "instead of doing it just ok and inexpensive, lets spend some money on it and make it really cool!." instead of missed opportunity gordon that just does the easy, cheap, fast way.

Pick two, for thats all you can have:

Cheap
Good
Fast

[kevininlb]

:previous: I lived in chicago when millenium park was being built, and many, many people were not happy about it. I mean, I couldn't wait for it but there were many people really pissed off for a bunch of reasons, not the least of which was talk of a "bean" sculpture. You're right about it being a tourist draw now but, trust me, Chicagoans were not happy about it until months after it was finished when tourists starting showing up.

I'm so far not blown away by the design for the civic space but I am waiting to see what happens. If nothing else, I give the mayor credit for factoring in a park and shade in his grand scheme for downtown.

[HX_Guy]

Also, there will be a 100' wide by 80' tall "floating" sculpture of some sort in the park which could be like this bean you guys are talking about. Something that size, up in the air, means it will be seen from pretty far, it will probably top out at 100'-110' in the air with the air space below it calculated in.

[andrewkfromaz]

It's obvious to me that Gordon's position in the column is boosterism and trying to take credit for a process and outcome with which he had nothing to do. If Gordon wants to leave a legacy, let's see Parks and Rec. Dept. reform.

That said, Parks and Rec. and ASU are to blame with any dissatisfaction people may have with the Civic Space design. I personally say you have to actually see the proposal in more detail than what's been presented, and I think the success of the space will ultimately depend on the number of potential users more than the design. I think Patriot's Square would have been more popular if there were more people living downtown, same with Deck Park. The design of the park, unless it's well and truly broken, will not impede use if there are residents who are willing to leave their luxury condos and spend time in the park.

[jvbahn]

THe trains are pretty cool IMO, though the comment about the new convention center is dead on. "Oh look how nice it is!" Then they drive home. Adds absolutely nothing to the area other than reducing the old oven that it was and provides some mass. With Combusean, I would agree, it's time to end the reverse lane, and start putting some density along the 7's. Too much damned driving in Phoenix, and it's got to turn around the auto-based infrastructure in so many ways if it is supposed to survive the absolute hell of the fast-approaching oil problems in the next few years. Now if they could turn off the tap at City Hall and the Capitol for the suburban infrastructure, maybe they could save Arizona.

As for the park, any sort of public space in the city would be welcome....it would be good to encourage some sort of communal civilization where people can gather publically, for which there is almost no example in the PHX Metro.

[DevdogAZ]

I haven't been to alot of the bigger convention centers around the country, but those that I have seen do not incorporate retail. What do other cities do to prevent the "dead space" you're complaining about? Seems that simply providing a larger and more usable convention center that will attract more travelers to the area is about all we can ask of that building. It's up to the surrounding area to cater to the retail needs of those people. If all the retail is incorporated right into the convention center, it will discourage travelers from getting out and experiencing the rest of what downtown has to offer.

[PHX_PD]

Downtown ASU a work in progress
Jahna Berry
The Arizona Republic
Aug. 19, 2007 12:00 AM

It's a tough juggling act for a 1-year-old.

When students return this week, Arizona State University's downtown campus will have a lot of balls in the air: construction, teaching, and pleasing taxpayers who invested millions, including $220 million from a 2006 bond, to pump life into the heart of Phoenix.

Tuesday will mark the first anniversary of the campus designed to create a vibrant university community that would inject jobs, foot traffic and electricity into Phoenix's core.
For ASU, the strategy is part of a broader plan to grow the university and create a campus focused on public service and policy. University and Phoenix leaders give themselves high marks, saying the first year was a success even though the campus is far from complete.

More than 3,000 students attended downtown classes last year, but official numbers for this year won't be ready until September. By 2015, up to 15,000 students - nearly the current size of Northern Arizona University - will take classes taught by downtown faculty.

"We are adding an entire educational sector to downtown Phoenix," said ASU President Michael Crow, who called the campus "one of the largest developments in the history of downtown."

This year, people will see more construction, more students and a stronger effort to improve students' experience. Some rough spots may fade with time. Others, such as the demand for more cheap parking, aren't going away.

Students say they love the professors, small downtown classes and cutting-edge classrooms, but they are giving the fledgling campus a different grade: Incomplete.

"They could have made it more livable," said David Bacerra, a social-work graduate student.
Work in progress
Last year, ASU launched a high-profile campus in the heart of Phoenix. It moved three colleges downtown, converted the Ramada Inn Downtown into a dorm and took over several downtown buildings. A shuttle service ferried students between the downtown campus and the Tempe campus.

Most of the ASU buildings lie between First Avenue and Third Street, Van Buren and Fillmore streets. ASU's Mercado complex is near Fifth Street and Van Buren.

Key parts of the campus haven't been built yet or are under construction:


• The first 13-story tower of a $150 million student housing complex, called Taylor Place, won't be ready until 2008. After a second tower is complete in 2009, the complex will house 1,300 students.


• The $71 million journalism school is to open in 2008 and is expected to bring more than 1,000 undergraduate students downtown.


• A $15 million expansion for the nursing school that will provide 50,000 square feet for classrooms and offices on the southeast corner of Second Street and Fillmore probably won't break ground until 2008.


• A student union, planned for the bottom floor of the post office at 522 N. Central Ave., is not expected to open until 2010 or later. The project, which includes relocating the post office's distribution center to another site, could cost $4 million.


• The campus quad, a $30 million 2.7-acre park called the Downtown Civic Space. The first phase is scheduled to be done by 2008, but it won't be complete until 2009.
Craving a college vibe
Until those projects are done and more shops and restaurants stay open late, the campus will be a turnoff to many students, some say.

"If you were looking for a real college atmosphere, it wasn't there," said Kaylin Hasselquist, 19, who lived in a dorm downtown last year. She plans to live in Tempe this year.

Since she had to take several classes in Tempe, Hasselquist says she spent a lot of time commuting back and forth from Phoenix shuttling between the campuses. At night, there was little for students under 21 to do, she said.

With the nursing school based downtown, Hasselquist is considering leaving ASU to go to nursing school back home in Minnesota after this year. The lack of downtown amenities will be a "deciding factor" if she goes home, she said.

Other students raved about the high-tech feel of the new campus: There's wireless Internet access, sleek computers, new study areas and tricked-out classrooms that make PowerPoint presentations easy.

"The classrooms last year were wonderful," said Lynn Maupin, a graduate student in the school of nursing.

Most students interviewed, however, said ASU needs more affordable parking.

Throughout ASU, student parking permits rose again last year. Students shell out $180 to $670 annually for a permit. Many students say they parked in cheaper, public lots, but those spaces often filled up during the day. Another rate hike is planned next year.

There are no plans to provide cheaper parking, the school says. The price hikes are part of a three-year increase that began in 2006. ASU's transit program needs the additional money to keep providing campus shuttles, free bus passes for students and other services, the school says.
More activities
Crow says the University has tried to respond to some specific student concerns by getting input from downtown students, investing in safety measures and creating a student center at the Arizona Center.

"In general, what we are hearing is that students are quite happy," he said. "They don't like the hassle of the construction, but that's seen as an aggravation by everybody."

Another university official stressed that the downtown campus isn't designed to have the traditional feel that students would get 10 miles away in Tempe.

"We knew that we would be a different experience," said Mary Kay Harton, assistant director of student engagement. "If they want Mill Avenue, the large numbers (of students), we can't provide that for them."

Of the 167 students who lived last year in the renovated Ramada, now called Residential Commons, 40 will return. Residential Commons is the only ASU dorm that allows students to return after their freshman year is over.

But school officials also plan to strengthen student activities, which they say is a key to retention and student success.

They have started an online calendar to spread word about events, looking for ways to involve graduate students and partnering with more local businesses. This year, orange-clad ambassadors from Copper Square will show students around downtown during the first week of school. Many students didn't know what restaurants and shops were available, Harton said.

The temporary student union also will try to enhance activities, offering events on most Thursday, Friday and Saturday nights, she said. Last year, few students used the temporary union, at the Arizona Center nearby, because it didn't open until the spring semester.

The ASU Wells Fargo Student Center has the hang-out essentials: plasma TVs, games and meeting space. But it pales when compared with what ASU has planned for the future: Downtown students lounging on the bottom floor of the post office after a multimillion-dollar face lift.

The space will spill onto the planned $30 million park.

This is the first time I have heard the name “Taylor Place” for the dorms; not bad in my opinion. It's also nice to hear they have plans for that empty lot on the south side of Fillmore between 2nd and 3rd Streets, although 50,000 square feet doesn’t seem like much.

[andrewkfromaz]

I have to say I feel sorry for downtown students. Tempe is a great place to go to school, and no mistake. If you have to deal with the institutional mentality of ASU, you should at least get to enjoy the sheer weight of the nation's second-largest university's student, faculty, and alumni buying power, which results in some great (for Phoenix metro) restaurants, clubs, bars, boutiques, you name it.
I wonder what impact Tempe's continuing development will have on this environment, but I more wonder what it would take to get DT Phoenix to have a somewhat similar industry that caters to ASU students, faculty, and staff.

[StadiumLofter]

I think Patriot's Square would have been more popular if there were more people living downtown, same with Deck Park. The design of the park, unless it's well and truly broken, will not impede use if there are residents who are willing to leave their luxury condos and spend time in the park.

No way. I live walking distance from Patriot's Park. My girlfriend and I see it on our morning strolls every day. What's there to "use"? It's too small to jog around or to allow pets to roam around even if on a leash. And that's setting aside the fact that it's dominated by the homeless, and that it smells like pee. Oh and if you have the misfortune of walking through it at night, you'll also see a billion cockroaches with every step you take. This is despite the fact the City maintains the park: the grass is always crisp, clean, and green, and there's not a speck of trash lying anywhere other than in the immediate surroundings of where a bum may be lying on a park bench. In which case the bum would surely argue that the item of trash is not actually trash, but his cousin Elmo or something.

Destroying Patriot's Park is one of the best things to happen to downtown Phx.

[andrewkfromaz]

Urban parks are a fairly unique place where the presence of people attract more people, which continues until the space is too full to be comfortable, which for urban users, is pretty full. I don't deny that Patriot's Square could have been better designed; in fact I don't object to nor lament its destruction. I'm simply stating that urban open space will get a better chance to succeed now that the number of residents, workers, and visitors in downtown is increasing dramatically.

[sundevilgrad]

I noticed yesterday that the elevator core/stairwell on the dorm is at the 13th floor... Also the WCSJ looks to be working on the top floor...

[Kroney]

Facing SW at the corner of 2nd St & Fillmore.
http://farm2.static.flickr.com/1025/1253921246_7deebb0024_b.jpg

Looking west down Taylor St. The Taylor Mall project is really coming along between 3rd St & 2nd.
http://farm2.static.flickr.com/1245/1253061739_b650a8e846_b.jpg

Looking east at Phase 1 of the ASU dorms.
http://farm2.static.flickr.com/1056/1253063849_c56fbb6d19_b.jpg

Dorms (left) & Cronkite School of Journalism.
http://farm2.static.flickr.com/1346/1253065817_270b5d7cb1_b.jpg

[andrewkfromaz]

Great photos. Wow, they are really moving on those dorms...

[PHX31]

It's hard to get the feel in a photograph, but in real life, that view of all of the cranes in Kroney's last picture is really impressive. Standing at the corner of the Westward Ho building looking at the Journalism/Dorms/Sheraton construction and cranes in one view is pretty awesome.

Thanks for the picture update Kroney!

[Azndragon837]

^Indeed, the sheer awesomeness of all those cranes, and that UGLY hotel! :-) So correct me if I am wrong: 13 stories will be the maximum height of those dorms? For some reason that building looks too short. I was expecting Manzanita Hall massiveness, but I can deal with a midrise downtown. :-)

-Andrew

[sundevilgrad]

13 stories is what I remember hearing...

[sundevilgrad]

13 stories is what I remember hearing...

[sundevilgrad]

ASU Downtown Dorms

http://img217.imageshack.us/img217/763/downtowndorms1ak1.jpg
http://img217.imageshack.us/img217/8236/downtowndorms2ye9.jpg


- 13 stories, 161-feet tall (according to Don B.'s chart)


Here's HX's post from the first page... Looks like 13 stories.

[Vicelord John]

14 stories

[CANUC]

I was under the impression that the WCSJ would have “26ft” high ceilings on the sixth floor. However when looking at the live cam from the web feed it seems the forms for the sixth floor are going into place and they are in no way 26 feet higher then the previous floor.

[HX_Guy]

I noticed the same thing. I'm thinking maybe only some parts of the 6th floor will have the 26' ceilings and other parts the standard height.

[nbrindley]

that last picture is awesome. makes it look like a brand new city is being built from scratch.

[HX_Guy]

According to the website for the dorms, www.asu-taylorplace.com , the ground floor will house a UPS Store. I wonder if any other retail will join or if that's the only one?

http://www.nitnelav.com/DTSept4/11.jpg

http://www.nitnelav.com/DTSept4/9.jpg

The Taylor St landscaping is pretty disappointing I think. I was expecting more mature trees I guess...not ones that look like bushes and won't provide shade for years.

http://www.nitnelav.com/DTSept4/13.jpg

[Azndragon837]

^I agree. What kind of shade is THAT? Sigh....it's a start. At least they didn't plant any palms. The rocks make the streetscape less inviting, and something needs to be done with that ugly AZ Center building at the end...makes for an ugly focal point: concrete!

Thanks for the website to Taylor Place. I like this "Pod" and "Plaza" thing they are proposing:

http://www.asu-taylorplace.com/images/pod.jpg

http://www.asu-taylorplace.com/images/plaza.jpg

-Andrew

[KEVINphx]

actually palms like in the photo above would have provided quite a bit of shade compared to those pathetic 5 gallon trees!

its when they butch the palm trees to 3 - 5 fronds that they look like shit and make NO shade!

my $0.02

[KEVINphx]

actually palms like in the photo above would have provided quite a bit of shade compared to those pathetic 5 gallon trees!

its when they butch the palm trees to 3 - 5 fronds that they look like shit and make NO shade!

my $0.02

[CANUC]

Azdragon837-
and something needs to be done with that ugly AZ Center building at the end...makes for an ugly focal point: concrete!

I double that observation. The bad part however is that, that is the side of the AMC theater and there really wouldn't be an easy way of changing it without some major renovations which I don't forsee AMC or the Arizona Center willing to do considering cost.

A cheaper alternative would be to simply create some type of gateway at the point that Taylor St ends. Something flashy like a huge arch topped with the AZ Center signage - heck even in neon - repave the sidewalk with more attractive pavers that create the illusion of a path leading the entrance. This could help both the students and the AZ Center. I mean look at that shot and imagine yourself on that street, what incentive would anyone have to walk down the street especially if you were unaware of the limited retail? Now imagine you walk and the only thing you see at the end of Taylor is a large inviting sign, it would definately create curiosity.

[PHX31]

WIDE sidewalks and potentially scrawny trees don't promote shade all that well, especially not shade canopies, which would be ideal (but for some reason are a no-no for designers/the city).

[HX_Guy]

http://www.nitnelav.com/DTSept12/4.jpg

http://www.nitnelav.com/DTSept12/5.jpg

[andrewkfromaz]

Thanks for the pics, HX Guy. They have less than a year before the first dorm is supposed to be open, right? So far, it looks like they're making good time.

[PHX_PD]

Driving by the site last night, it looks like they have already started work on the elevator core of the North dorm tower. This project is moving fast as hell, basically the polar opposite of Alta Phoenix.

^ And yes, the South tower is suppose to be open for the Fall of 08'

[vwwolfe]

Are they building both dorm towers? I was under the impression they were only going to do one and the other would be later.
http://inlinethumb29.webshots.com/19612/2217705950086534769S600x600Q85.jpg (http://good-times.webshots.com/photo/2217705950086534769IuqZte)

South tower swarming with workers.
http://inlinethumb28.webshots.com/20059/2341244460086534769S600x600Q85.jpg (http://good-times.webshots.com/photo/2341244460086534769iGNwUH)

Dorms, Cronkite School and Sheraton.
http://inlinethumb35.webshots.com/18722/2869051380086534769S600x600Q85.jpg (http://good-times.webshots.com/photo/2869051380086534769AIaKVm)

[HX_Guy]

Great shots, good (and new) angles on all of the projects.

[HX_Guy]

http://nitnelav.com/DTSept28/9.jpg

http://nitnelav.com/DTSept28/10.jpg

[Phxbyrd211]

I was under the impression that the dorms were both going to be 16 stories. Wasn't that reported at one time or another? Also, even with these two structures they are still far short of their projected housing requirements, so wouldn't there be more incentive to build like 18-20 stories or acquire the insipid Valley Youth Theater and build three more slender towers instead of two?

[andrewkfromaz]

I think costs prohibited anything more ambitious, besides, ASU has had a policy, they don't try to house all of the students that will be attending each campus.

[HooverDam]

Azdragon837-


I double that observation. The bad part however is that, that is the side of the AMC theater and there really wouldn't be an easy way of changing it without some major renovations which I don't forsee AMC or the Arizona Center willing to do considering cost.

A cheaper alternative would be to simply create some type of gateway at the point that Taylor St ends. Something flashy like a huge arch topped with the AZ Center signage - heck even in neon - repave the sidewalk with more attractive pavers that create the illusion of a path leading the entrance. This could help both the students and the AZ Center. I mean look at that shot and imagine yourself on that street, what incentive would anyone have to walk down the street especially if you were unaware of the limited retail? Now imagine you walk and the only thing you see at the end of Taylor is a large inviting sign, it would definately create curiosity.

I sort of disagree, if you look at the AZ Center, especially by the theater there is a HUGE set back. I think they could easily wrap it in retail if they wanted to. There's the sidewalk, then it steps up, and its probably 20 feet to the wall of the theater. Small cafes or other little shops could be added to the outside I think.

[HX_Guy]

I was under the impression that the dorms were both going to be 16 stories. Wasn't that reported at one time or another? Also, even with these two structures they are still far short of their projected housing requirements, so wouldn't there be more incentive to build like 18-20 stories or acquire the insipid Valley Youth Theater and build three more slender towers instead of two?

Originally there was talk of up to 19 stories if I remember correctly...but the final height has been reduced to 13 story buildings.

[HX_Guy]

ASU Downtown Campus Attendance Up 22 %
September 28, 2007 by Lyle Plocher comment

Jahna Berry
The Arizona Republic
Sept. 28, 2007 05:08 PM

There are 22 percent more students on Arizona State University's downtown campus compare to last fall, the university reported on Friday.

ASU and local leaders are closely watching growth at the one-year-old campus because it's a key part of plans to revitalize downtown Phoenix.

In 2006, city residents voted to spend $220 million in bond money to help develop the campus.

There are 3,377 students taking classes downtown this fall compared to 2,766 last year, according to ASU figures made public this week.

The University also reported the number of students taught by downtown faculty, which was also up compared to last year. This, fall 6,595 students were taught by downtown faculty compared to 6,229 during the same period last year.

The number of students on campus is double number that the university was expecting, said Mernoy Harrison, Executive Vice Provost at the downtown campus.

"That says that we will be running out of space very quickly," said Harrison, adding that on certain days, there are no spare classrooms at the University Center.

ASU plans to add several building to the campus over the next few years to give the campus growing room. In 2008, a $71 million journalism school and the first phase of a $150 million dorm project will open. That year the nursing school plans break ground on a $15 million complex with more classrooms and offices.

[Phxbyrd211]

that would have meant about another 1,000 beds down there and judging from this article they certainly need it. No, they don't need to provide housing but they do at least need to account for the amount of students who are living on campus in Tempe for the programs that are moving to DT. THAT'S what I meant Andrew! Also, for every bed you provide that's one less commuter student you have at that campus which is good on so many levels.

[PHX_PD]

Part of the South tower is already up to floor 13:

http://i206.photobucket.com/albums/bb56/Phoenixguy/DSCN1230.jpg

WCSOJ:

http://i206.photobucket.com/albums/bb56/Phoenixguy/DSCN1235-1.jpg

[andrewkfromaz]

Cool nighttime construction pics! Lookin' good!

[Vicelord John]

how tall is that dorm building going to be... I thought it was going to be 12 but I count 14 already...

[tempedude]

how tall is that dorm building going to be... I thought it was going to be 12 but I count 14 already...
I count 13 floors. Thats what its floor count is supposed to be. But, its going to be something like 14 floors in height with its glass crown thingy. [ lol 'thingy'...what a great technical description]:haha: :shrug:

Check out the rendering, looks like the plan may have changed some

http://img442.imageshack.us/my.php?image=downtowndorms1ch3.jpg

[Vicelord John]

no floor 13!!

[Vicelord John]

Isn't this some form of darwinism?
:shrug:

Construction worker falls to his death at Cronkite School site
Nikki Renner and Jahna Berry
The Arizona Republic
Oct. 9, 2007 03:01 PM

An ironworker fell to his death Tuesday morning while working on Arizona State University's $71 million journalism school building in downtown Phoenix.

Ian Delmar, 21, fell from the seventh floor - what is now the top of the building - 80 feet down an air conditioning shaft of the Walter Cronkite School of Journalism and Mass Communication building around 9 a.m., Phoenix Fire Spokeswoman Stacey Derge said.

The worker was taken to St. Joesph's Hospital and pronounced dead shortly after he arrived.





Around 8 a.m. a crew from Tempe's Top Flite Construction Inc. was stacking steel so that workers could build an enclosure for the mechanical equipment that will eventually go on the top of the building.

Delmar was walking backward carrying an I-beam when he kicked a piece of plywood, marked with warning signs, out of the way, Phoenix Fire spokesman Victor Rangel said. The plywood was covering the opening of the AC shaft. Delmar took a step and fell into the hole.

After he hit the ground, Delmar was not breathing and had fractures on both arms. There were also multiple internal injuries and head trauma, Rangel said.

Officers tried to resuscitate Delmar on the scene and later on the way to the hospital. Sundt Construction Inc. is building the Cronkite school, which is near First and Filmore streets.

“With all the construction that's going on here in the city, it's a common thing,” Rangel said. “It's very unfortunate when it does happen.”

Those shafts are usually covered and marked, so safety investigators are looking into what happened, Charlie Boyd, spokesman of Sundt Construction, Inc., said. Boyd is the general contractor for the entire project.

“It was a very tragic accident,” Boyd said.

Delmar was an employee of Top Flite Construction Inc., a firm that was hired by subcontractor Schuff Steel Co. to handle steel erection work on the site, Boyd said.

Top Flite's officials declined to comment.

Sundt halted construction on Tuesday, but planned to resume work on Thursday. Sundt plans to provide grief counselors and a fire department chaplain when crews return to work on Thursday morning.

The building is scheduled to open fall 2008 and will house the journalism school as well as Eight/KAET.

Sundt hasn't had a fatal employee accident in nearly two decades, and it's been several years since a subcontractor's worker died at a Sundt project, Boyd said.

[jvbahn]

Isn't this some form of darwinism?

I don't wanna belittle the guy's death, but I said the same thing to someone when I read it.

[sundevilgrad]

I don't wanna belittle the guy's death, but I said the same thing to someone when I read it.

Horrible post.

[combusean]

No, it's not--he was walking backwards. If he kicked the plywood while shuffling his feet while holding the I-bar, it's not social darwinism, it's a lawsuit with good merit. The warning signs don't do any good if your back is turned to them. If he's dead because his buddy or somebody managing the situation wasn't keeping an eye out for him then there's neglect. I mean, I'm guessing somebody had to have been walking forward holding the I-beam with him and didn't see it as well.

[JAHOPL]

"Those shafts are usually covered and marked, so safety investigators are looking into what happened....."

If usually covered and marked but this shaft wasn't covered, I can't see how there won't be a lawsuit for negligence.

[Vicelord John]

No, it's not--he was walking backwards. If he kicked the plywood while shuffling his feet while holding the I-bar, it's not social darwinism, it's a lawsuit with good merit.

Unsafe work habits. A lawsuit wont hold up because any decent judge will toss a case out immediately where a worker was not working in a safe way. Its common sense, when working in a dangerous place, keep your eyes open for problems. If you can't see where you are going, get somoene to help you so that you are both aware of dangers.:tup:

there is no argument for the man, he fucked up. It's unfortunate, and I hope his family does well getting through it, but he still fucked up.

[CANUC]

If I recall correctly there was also a death during the construction of Chase Field/BOB. A worker fell during the construction of the roof. Just recently a worker was nearly crushed when a wall collapsed during the demolition of the Phoenix Convention center, last week a worker fell atop the Sheraton suffering serve injuries and I believe there was also a falling death during the construction of the Cardinals stadium. I guess the point this type of construction is dangerous and it comes with the territory.

By the way, if there were any doubts both towers of the ASU Dorms are indeed under construction at the same time. I'm wondering if maybe because of the increased attendance they decided to jump start the second building.

[PHX31]

That's good news... Phasing the dorms would have sucked, and potentially held back attendance.

[andrewkfromaz]

Have you ever been within a hundred feet of a construction site? Safety, even for steel subs, tends to be perceived as a nuisance. "Get someone to help you" sounds like an obvious solution, but it's not that easy when you've been assigned a simple task and all of your co-workers are busy. Could the worker have avoided the accident? Of course! Does that mean Sundt will be completely absolved of all legal liability? Don't bet on it.

[HX_Guy]

That's good news... Phasing the dorms would have sucked, and potentially held back attendance.

I'm guessing one of the main reasons they are hurrying up on the second tower also has to do with construction noise. I know it's been a big complaint and I imagine it would be awful to have a dorm that's 50' away from another tower being built.

[HX_Guy]

It's getting there. All 13 floors are complete on one building, and it seems there will be a 14th (mechanical?) floor. And for the record, there are 13 physical floors.

http://nitnelav.com/DTOct18/7.jpg

http://nitnelav.com/DTOct18/8.jpg

[Azndragon837]

^Very long building, and a very short building for a 14-floor tower (probably with the low celing heights). In anycase, it would be awesome to live on top of the 13th floor as a student facing south...killer Downtown Phoenix views!

-Andrew

[HX_Guy]

The Cronkite School is gaining some height...about two floors worth with their final floor, the one that they mentioned would have 20' ceiling. Good to see.

http://cronkitebuilding.asu.edu/

[HX_Guy]

http://www.asu-taylorplace.com/asu-tp/construction_progress/november07.jpg

[andrewkfromaz]

Great shot, HX Guy. Thanks for the update!

[sundevilgrad]

http://www.asu-taylorplace.com/asu-tp/construction_progress/november07.jpg

How did you get that shot? Helicopter?:shrug:

[PHX_PD]

^ It's from the Taylor Place website, and yeah, it looks like they got it from a helicopter.

http://www.asu-taylorplace.com/asu%2Dtp/index.php?asu_tp=progress

[Phxbyrd211]

Can someone explain to me how the Dorms are oriented to the downtown public space? If they chose not to orient their garden plaza toward that then it was a big mistake.

[CANUC]

:previous: By “oriented towards” do you mean whether or not the wide façade of the buildings are facing the public space as opposed to the shorter ends? Well for reference the above aerial picture was taken from the north facing south. At the right of the picture or to the west of the dorms you can see the Cronkite School of Journalism under construction, the public space will be west of that building. So the orientation of the two dorms probably wouldn’t have mattered in regards to the public space since it is a full block away. Additionally the real consideration for the way the footprints of the two dorms would be placed probably had more to do with consideration of sun exposure then with view of the park.

[Phxbyrd211]

I wish then they had put the dorms on the west lot and the WCSOJ on the east lot so that the garden spaces could have flowed together. I wonder how future buildings like the Jet or Copper Point would affect the shading of Taylor Place. Is the sun that big of an issue when most of the students will be there Sep-May?

[NIXPHX77]

I wish then they had put the dorms on the west lot and the WCSOJ on the east lot so that the garden spaces could have flowed together. I wonder how future buildings like the Jet or Copper Point would affect the shading of Taylor Place. Is the sun that big of an issue when most of the students will be there Sep-May?

the sun is that big of an issue 90% of the year, imo.
plus, i'm sure there will also be summer school students.

i don't think the Jet or Copper Pointe could ever be tall enough to affect
shading of Taylor Place.

is Taylor Place to include some special "garden space"?

[Phxbyrd211]

From the Taylor Place site

"The 4,000-square-foot shade garden is overlooked by a private roof
terrace for students. This public garden includes seating and a water
feature and is linked with Taylor Street's landscape and pedestrian plan."

[NIXPHX77]

[QUOTE=Phxbyrd211;3171708]From the Taylor Place site

Sounds nice. glad it will be open to the public. thx Phxbyrd211.

[Phxbyrd211]

I haven't heard much about retail or dinning planned for the Taylor St. pedestrian mall yet. Can anyone clue me in as to how they will keep this alive at night and on the weekends?

[vwwolfe]

Here's a link to the WCSOJ Construction webcam. Don't know if this has been posted before or not.

http://www.azpbs.org/future/webcam.htm

[PHX_PD]

Yeah, its been posted. I haven’t documented WCSOJ as I have with other projects, but I did take one screen shot back in June for comparisons. Quite a change in 6 months:

http://i206.photobucket.com/albums/bb56/Phoenixguy/CronkiteBuilding.jpg

http://i206.photobucket.com/albums/bb56/Phoenixguy/WCSOJ2.jpg

[combusean]

Somebody asked about a rendering of the CivicSpace ... this is the best I got.

http://emvis.net/~sean/ssp/ASU_civic_space_-_july_2007.pdf

I think they've tweaked the southeast entrance a bit since then, given how in newer models I think there's a ~2 story building fronting to Central from the back of the historic structure on 1st Avenue indicated in the siteplan as the PESD Administration building. I think, but am not certain the new building annex is supposed to be the ASU downtown library.

[andrewkfromaz]

For me, the most exciting thing about the open space is the Union Terrace and the "street plaza" to the east. The terrace on the north side of the MU at ASU Tempe can be really crowded on nice days, I hope the spaces near the Post Office building (ASU downtown's student union) get similar use. I think that depends to an extent on the draw of the Post Office building itself. I also have high hopes for the A. E. England building; the use of that building hasn't been determined completely yet but I hope they figure out a good use that will draw people.

I think the weakest part of the plan is the southwest quadrant. The rationale for that area was more of a neighborhood-oriented, quiet/intimate park, which to me sounds like a great place to spend the night or hang out if you have nowhere else to go. Another thing I don't like about it is the way Taylor just dead-ends in the park. They should have made more of a grand entrance on the east side, as well as found a way to connect the alignment (at least for pedestrians) on the west side.

Another downside on a larger scale is the intense difficulty and confusion that driving (and, to a lesser extent, walking) around the park will offer the uninitiated. We're all gung-ho about the light rail, but the truth is, it's going to make driving downtown even more of a bear, even once it's finished. Seeing some of the plans for this site really drove that point home for me. I hope Phoenix drivers will figure out that we need to drive slower around the light rail, especially if they need to turn across the tracks. Just driving straight up or down Central is no problem, but trying to go west on Fillmore or anything like that is going to take some real preparation.

[Tfom]

Andrew,
I agree with you that driving around light rail is confusing, its one of those learned things. However in many ways that is good thing. Most big cities are confusing to drive around if you aren't from there. At least it makes us a little more normal.

[JimInCal]

A couple of sunset pic's of the ASU Dorms under construction and the Walter Cronkite School of Journalism.

http://img2.freeimagehosting.net/uploads/d9d151754e.jpg (http://www.freeimagehosting.net/)

http://img2.freeimagehosting.net/uploads/ff2be7486c.jpg (http://www.freeimagehosting.net/)

http://img2.freeimagehosting.net/uploads/d6031d701e.jpg (http://www.freeimagehosting.net/)

http://img2.freeimagehosting.net/uploads/20fbb0c6f0.jpg (http://www.freeimagehosting.net/)

[DracoCaifan]

Nice!! How's the Cronkite School of Journalism on the front looks like?

[JimInCal]

:previous: The pic does show the front. The main entrance is to the far left in this shot. The sun was nearly gone, so I took this shot and called it a day.

[NIXPHX77]

FYI folks: this Thurs. is a hearing for "ASU School of Nursing Variance requests. They are requesting 8 variances - the last 5 on the list being the most critical because those will impact the pedestrian environment. The building design turns its back to the community by minimizing access, creating blank walls facing the street and reducing the amount of shade.

The Zoning Administrator Hearing is scheduled for 2:30 in Assembly Rm C at City Hall." All of this info is per Dean Brennan (a really nice guy.)

Dean Brennan, AICP
Principal Planner
Phoenix Planning Department
602-262-4499
602-495-3793 (fax)

[JimInCal]

Here is a 3-Dimensional rendering of the Civic Space from the Dec-Jan issue of Contact Magazine. I am including the link for the story about the DT ASU campus from whence I snagged the rendering.

http://img2.freeimagehosting.net/uploads/ad6d43868a.jpg (http://www.freeimagehosting.net/)

Nice quote from the article: "As ASU and Phoenix battle, build and spend their way toward their respective desired destinies—a new American university and a vibrant urban center—the downtown campus is the symbiotic overlap of both pursuits. It is a time of becoming for both city and university. With each passing day, one can only hope that the tantalizing potential for exponential synergy across cultural, economic, academic and aesthetic boundaries will continue its gradual escape from the realm of theory to the here and now."

http://www.contact-mag.com/kontakt/content-view/65/index.html

[HX_Guy]

They are planning to plant trees in the middle of the road on Central Ave? That's kind of cool, I had no idea.

Also, in the downtown model, the high rise across the street from the Westward Ho appears again. I wonder if it's done simply as a "could be" or if there are plans for something that we havn't heard of yet. I would like to think it's the latter as if it was just a speculation, then they could/would have done that for every empty lot downtown.

http://nitnelav.com/ASUModel1.jpg

[NIXPHX77]

If anyone would like to see the rendering of the school of nursing
expansion bldg, then please send me your email address; perhaps you can
post it to this forum. i do not know how - sorry!:shrug: