[nec209]

Why do people hate urban city ? I know why many hate suburbs but why urban city?

1 Do you hate the grid system?
2 Do you hate the store-fronts?
3 Do you hate the foot traffic
4 Do you hate the side walks
5 Do you hate the way the city looks?
6 Do you hate the crime?
7 Do you hate the rough streets or bad areas?

It does NOT say looking at the dictionary .


urban = of city: relating to or belonging to a city


suburbs = residential area bordering city: a district, especially a residential one, on the edge of a city or large town

No definition looking at the dictionary .


Do you like the malls ,power centers,anti-store-fronts,anti-grid system?

If so want makes you urban or like urban or hate urban.:shrug:

[keninhalifax]

Such is the dilemma of this mod'ren age.

[LordMandeep]

people don't hate suburbs, they dislike suburbs that have no walk ability and depend totally on automobiles.

Some people dislike cities for being to busy or craped together and believe that generally leads to crime ridden and shoddy neighborhoods.

[Roger Strong]

I've lived in both urban and suburban settings, several places each, and in different cities. Currently I'm in an urban area - Winnipeg's West End. It's by no means the worst urban area of Winnipeg.

I'll address your points one at a time. Keep in mind that I have kids, which changes one's priorities.

> 1 Do you hate the grid system?

Yes, for two reasons:

- It's more dangerous for kids. On a bay or cove, there's no through-traffic, so people aren't in a hurry. It's safe for your kids to ride their bikes. On a grid system street, *every* street is a shortcut from one place to another. Most traffic is through-traffic, and it's travelling a lot faster.

- On a grid system street, even pedestrian traffic is usually through-traffic. this leads to a lot more vandalism. We get kids pulling down branches, hitting everything (including cars) with sticks, etc as they walk up the back lane on the way to school - even checking for unlocked car doors to steal change. Leave anything in your back yard, and they'll simply take it.

On a bay or cove, you know everyone going down the street; there's far more sense of community. You know who the parents are, so you can ask them to put a stop to it.

> Do you hate the store-fronts?

I prefer the store fronts - another reason to be in the suburbs. Every time I lived in the suburbs, we weren't far from a major grocery store - and a drug store, and dental office, bank, etc.

Here in the West End, you have to get in a car for these. Yeah, there's little mini-marts, but the prices are higher, the food older, and the selection almost nonexistent. When you have a family member with diabetis and another with a milk allergy, the mini-marts aren't an option. And there's no banks, drug stores, dental offices. (We just got a Zimmy Diamonds. Whoop-de-do.)

> Do you hate the foot traffic

In the suburbs my wife could go for a walk in the evening, and be safe. No so in urban areas like the West End.

> Do you hate the side walks

Without the high-speed through traffic, the bays and coves don't need them. The main routes in the suburbs DO have them.

The suburbs tend to also have bike paths - urban areas don't have the room.

> Do you hate the way the city looks?

I like green space and actual parks and bike paths, which you get in the suburbs. Here in the West End, a "park" is a featureless green square - like a parking lot with grass.

> Do you hate the crime?

Yes. Our car has been broken into twice in the last month. We caught one of the kids one time and handed him over to the police. Being 11, all the police could do is take his big screwdriver away and hand him over to the "parents". He finished the job a couple days later.

The urban area also have far more rapes, murders and drive-by shootings than the suburbs. (Lest you think I've been watching too much TV, we had a drive-by shooting a block north of us a couple years ago. A girl was randomly shot a couple blocks away three weeks ago. There's a trial on right now for a drive-by shooting a few blocks away that killed an innocent bystander and injured another.)

And fires. The day we caught the kid breaking into our car, vandals fire to a house on his block. The next day on the same block they set fire to the house's garage, which eventually destroyed four garages, two houses, and further damaged two more houses. The next weekend, another fire. Dunno about last weekend.

> Do you hate the rough streets or bad areas?

Yes. Now that I have a family, even more so.

I prefered the urban/downtown when I was single, but moving to an urban area with a family was a terrible mistake.

[Coldrsx]

people hate everything, just depends what side of the fence you on.

[204]

I prefered the urban/downtown when I was single, but moving to an urban area with a family was a terrible mistake.

Yes, but you're in Winnipeg, an exception.


"People living in cul-de-sacs are 30% more likely to be burgled according to research published last year by the Space Syntax Laboratory, University College London."

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/uk/article1364738.ece

[e909]

I agree with what Roger Strong said, but a lot of suburbs do have stores within close proximity.. When I lived in one you could just hop on the bike bath, walk a few blocks, and you were close to a lot of stores.. It had even better access than my "urban" grid system location now.

[Marc B.]

I live in the west end with Mrs. B. and our kids. It's fine. Though, we are planning to move across Portage into Wolseley in a couple years.

I don't hate the urban city.

[nec209]

> 1 Do you hate the grid system?

Yes, for two reasons:

- It's more dangerous for kids. On a bay or cove, there's no through-traffic, so people aren't in a hurry. It's safe for your kids to ride their bikes. On a grid system street, *every* street is a shortcut from one place to another. Most traffic is through-traffic, and it's travelling a lot faster.


It is land use pattern that slows cars down not roads .Try going 80 KM down town in the CBD not possible.Stop signs and street lights every block will slow cars down or buildings on streets where there is much cars or foot traffic going across the street


- On a grid system street, even pedestrian traffic is usually through-traffic. this leads to a lot more vandalism. We get kids pulling down branches, hitting everything (including cars) with sticks, etc as they walk up the back lane on the way to school - even checking for unlocked car doors to steal change. Leave anything in your back yard, and they'll simply take it.

The problem with suburbs is it makes community pods or blocks that do not connected to other areas of the city and the only way to get any where is using the collector roads this create isolation and jailed community and the collector roads become not safe do to high traffic and fast speeds well the grid system displace traffic so there less traffic and do to land use pattern the speed on street is 40K or 50KM and create this stop go and stop go .Well collector roads in suburbs are like mini highway so like you say away from collector roads.

Getting into car accident in the city is safer than the suburbs on the collector roads of speeds of 80KM .



On a bay or cove, you know everyone going down the street; there's far more sense of community. You know who the parents are, so you can ask them to put a stop to it.

If you are a watch dog, I know only 3 homes on my street that means you can walk on my street and I will think you live on my street.Many of CRET or CT there are 90 homes on street here.



> Do you hate the store-fronts?

I prefer the store fronts - another reason to be in the suburbs. Every time I lived in the suburbs, we weren't far from a major grocery store - and a drug store, and dental office, bank, etc.

Well store-fronts are of old days and they do not build store-fronts if they do it is city zoning law to keep CBD.People hate store-fronts there is no parking and you have to walk.


Here in the West End, you have to get in a car for these. Yeah, there's little mini-marts, but the prices are higher, the food older, and the selection almost nonexistent. When you have a family member with diabetis and another with a milk allergy, the mini-marts aren't an option. And there's no banks, drug stores, dental offices. (We just got a Zimmy Diamonds. Whoop-de-do.)


There is mall in NW end.But there are many stores on main street..And there is the 711 store.


> Do you hate the foot traffic

In the suburbs my wife could go for a walk in the evening, and be safe. No so in urban areas like the West End.

I find cities down-town safer do to the about of people .It is only down-towns with only like 3 or 5 on the street and it the questionable people doing the walking.People will not do B&E or robbery in front of 30 people.

> Do you hate the side walks

Without the high-speed through traffic, the bays and coves don't need them. The main routes in the suburbs DO have them.

I live on crescent about 90 homes and sure there is not much traffic but still would watch because many of the teens still go looping by now and than and you still have to watch for cars even if only 3 cars go every hour this could teache kids they can play on the street and don't have to be careful.Kids should be in parks or in lot of the house or side-walk only adult should be on street and 10 olds should not go anywhere with out a adult .

Even adults some times are not careful.And road safty should be taught in schools at young age.

The suburbs tend to also have bike paths - urban areas don't have the room.

They conserve the areas well Los vegas don't..

> Do you hate the way the city looks?

I like green space and actual parks and bike paths, which you get in the suburbs. Here in the West End, a "park" is a featureless green square - like a parking lot with grass.

I don't know how big parks are in WP but TO has some big parks like Trinity Bellwood park,James park,moss park,Wellesley park or riverdale park.

[MolsonExport]

I hate spawl (but I recently bought a house in the suburbs).
I hate big box retailers (but I must confess that I shop there).
I hate the auto-centric, cul-de-sac nature of suburbia (but hell, I have a car; have to have one!).
I hate the soulness of the suburbs (but then, why did I move there?)

Perhaps I am a hypocrite. But the effects of marriage, career, kids, and other life changes manifest themselves in mysterious ways.

[Roger Strong]

I hate the soulness of the suburbs (but then, why did I move there?)

While I don't thing that the suburbs have a lot of "soul", they clearly have more than urban areas.

Urban: The streets are layed out in a soul-sucking industrial age grid.
Suburban: The streets are all curves - much more natural looking. As the saying goes, "There are no right angles in nature."
Winner: Suburban.

Urban: One street looks just like the next.
Suburban: One street looks just like the next.
Winner: Neither.

Urban: Lots of anonomous higher-speed through-traffic, making it unsafe for kids to have a game of street-hockey.
Suburban: The kids can play out front, you know everyone who goes by, and so you get a greater sense of community.
Winner: Suburban.

Urban: Higher crime and vandalism. In our area everyone is fortifying their yards - installing large privacy fences with big sliding gates so that their car can be inside the fence. Having had our car broken into twice in the last month, we'll be doing the same.
Suburban: Much less crime and vandalism.
Winner: Suburban.

Urban: "Parks" tend to be flat grass-covered squares with no large trees - like parking lots covered in grass.
Suburban: Large parks, with landscaping and trees and stuff.
Winner: Suburban.

Urban:
Suburban: Bike paths!
Winner: Suburban.

[rgalston]

Urban: "Parks" tend to be flat grass-covered squares with no large trees - like parking lots covered in grass.
Suburban: Large parks, with landscaping and trees and stuff.
Winner: Suburban.


That statement is even more bogus than your other ones. I guess you haven't been to the great urban parks of your own city: St. John's, Vimy Ridge, Assiniboine, Kildonan, Central, etc.

But then again, those are Olmsteadian relics of the industrial age, so yeah...

[flar]

Are the winding roads of suburbia really more safe?

People who have to wind through a subdivision for five minutes to get to and from their house often drive really fast and pay little attention because they keep following that same route over and over (and over). Although there might not be as much traffic as with a grid, the traffic there is is probably barreling around a corner. And the kids are paying less attention because cars only come by every 10 minutes instead of every 2.

Grids are safe, as long as the residential streets have 4 way stops and the arterial and collector routes are clearly defined.

[Roger Strong]

That statement is even more bogus than your other ones. I guess you haven't been to the great urban parks of your own city: St. John's, Vimy Ridge, Assiniboine, Kildonan, Central, etc.


Assiniboine and Kildonan are the two big notable parks - and they're a long way away from downtown.... in the *suburbs*. The urban area has nothing in the same league.

Vimy Ridge actually has some trees, but nothing like a forest. It's still essentially a postage-stamp sized flat square. For kids, it's a poor substitute compared to the woods and bike trails along the Seine river that I grew up with in the suburbs.

Central Park? You're kidding, right? You could turn it into a small-ish parking lot (granted, with a nice fountain) and a week later re-sod it and turn it back into a "park" - without major changes.

St. John's is the one decent urban park in your list.

[Roger Strong]

Are the winding roads of suburbia really more safe?

People slow down and drive safer near their own homes. On a bay or cove, everyone driving there lives there. There's no through-traffic.

On a gridiron sheet you get through-traffic and lots of it. Your block is merely a shortcut between point A and point B. So, there's more traffic, and people are in a greater hurry.

Yeah, it's more dangerous. It's the difference between having street hockey, and not having it.

Grids are safe, as long as the residential streets have 4 way stops and the arterial and collector routes are clearly defined.

It makes no difference where arterial and collector routes are "clearly defined". On a gridiron layout, when an arterial route slows down - say Arlington during rush hour - itself a residential AND arterial street - people simply take a parallel residential street. And having just escaped the slow route, they ain't going slow or coming to a full stop at the stop signs on thier alternate route. We see it all the time.

Bays are coves aren't a shortcut or alternate route to anywhere, so they don't have this problem. And yes, suburbs have stop signs too.

[Mikemike]

I live in a older innercity area of edmonton. I have kids too, although they are young yet. My neighbourhood was a suburb long ago, but it's street pattern is very much inner city. I have the opposite experience of roger strong.
1 Do you hate the grid system?

I like the grid, because a) it gives us infinite options when going for a walk or a bike ride, including routes that aren't major arterials for bike commuting
Many streets, including mine, are narrow enough so that traffic doesn't go very fast. There are 6 boys under 26 months on our block, so I have no doubt that street hockey will occur. We know our neighbours well too, because we see and chat with neighbours across the alley as well as across the street, In the burbs our aquaintance was limited to those with adjoining property, and, plus the others on the small cul-de-sac.

The grid pattern also means that we have 2 excellent bus routes within easy walking distance. With grid streets and sidewalks there's no need for bikepaths.

2 Do you hate the store-fronts?

Some of the storefronts on 118ave near me are run down, but there's also a good bakery, a library, a pharmacy, independent convenience store, butcher, pizza place, 2 7-11's and 2 liquor stores within an easy walk. 112th ave also has another butcher, a gallery a couple resto's a short walk away. If I wanted, either nearby bus route would get me to a full service grocery in 15 minutes or less, but i drive instead. There's lot's of variety, and good value, and other than the big grocers and 7-11, it's mostly independent.

The built form close to the sidewalk is has a nicer feel than the plaza that were near to where i grew up.

3 Do you hate the foot traffic

No.
The foot traffic is dog walkers and stroller pushers, mostly. I heard prople at a local community meeting complain about foot traffic, but that was kids going to highschool who damaged flowers. If foot traffic isn't leading directly to crime, people who hate foot traffic hate people.

4 Do you hate the side walks

No. I love them, except when the one in front of my house makes puddles in the spring.
I grew up in a cul-de-sac suburb with sidewalks, and even there there were plenty of through streets, or even longer culdesacs and crescents that were too busy for walking on the streets. For some reason, sidewalk-free suburbs, as well as those with monolithic sidewalk & gutter also seem allergic to street trees.

5 Do you hate the way the city looks?

Love it. No (or very few) oversised double and triple garages with attached house. I laugh when i see a realtor in the burbs refer to 'curb appeal' of a house that from the curb appears to be a garage, with a door beside it.

The parks look better too, with more trees, and there are more, smaller school parks so there's several playgrounds nearby.

The only parts of the city that don't look good are rundown walkup apartments that can look bad wherever they are, and the the vacant/parking lots that still exist on the fringes of downtown.

6 Do you hate the crime?

What crime? It seems no worse to me.

7 Do you hate the rough streets or bad areas?

There are very few rough streets or bad areas in Edmonton, and of those I bike through some of the worst on my commute. I've never felt unsafe.
I might hate the rough areas if I lived where I would have to shoo the people sleeping under the hedge every couple days.

[MonkeyRonin]

Urban: The streets are layed out in a soul-sucking industrial age grid.
Suburban: The streets are all curves - much more natural looking. As the saying goes, "There are no right angles in nature."
Winner: Suburban.

The perfect curves and cul de sacs of suburban streets are hardly natural either. At least gridded streets are effiecent and easy to understand though.

Urban: One street looks just like the next.
Suburban: One street looks just like the next.
Winner: Neither.

Uhh...won't even bother with this. Good try though. :haha:

Urban: Lots of anonomous higher-speed through-traffic, making it unsafe for kids to have a game of street-hockey.
Suburban: The kids can play out front, you know everyone who goes by, and so you get a greater sense of community.
Winner: Suburban.

I think flar already covered this pretty well (on the subject of awarness and such), but curved streets are more difficult to see around, especially wide ones with high speed limits. A far cry from the narrow, busy city streets. Might I also add that city kids are more likely to be aware of the traffic, as opposed to their sheltered suburban counterparts. Similarily, urban drivers would be more careful to watch out for people on the crowded streets that they are used too.

Urban: Higher crime and vandalism. In our area everyone is fortifying their yards - installing large privacy fences with big sliding gates so that their car can be inside the fence. Having had our car broken into twice in the last month, we'll be doing the same.
Suburban: Much less crime and vandalism.
Winner: Suburban.

Sure, cities have more crime, but for the average person not involved in all that, the auto-centricity of suburbs is infinately more dangerous than the so-called "crime" found in cities.

Oh, and while I have no proof, I'd hypothesize that suicide rates are higher in the burbs. :)

Urban: "Parks" tend to be flat grass-covered squares with no large trees - like parking lots covered in grass.
Suburban: Large parks, with landscaping and trees and stuff.
Winner: Suburban.

Bullshit. Urban parks have had time to mature, meaning larger (and more!) trees, with older fountains, paths, and the like. Suburban parks are just as cookie cutter as the suburbs themselves, tiny trees with blandly landscaped grass and cement paths.

Obviously, this varies by city, but in any city I've been - Toronto especially - the parks of the city and soo much better than those out of it. But that perhaps, is just me. I like trees and people and activity and other outdated things like that.

[vid]

My cities downtown has parks and bikepaths, and no two streets look alike....

And really, our suburban parks are large flat squares with no trees.

Paterson Park, downtown (http://www.google.ca/maps?q=Thunder+Bay,+ON,+Canada&ie=UTF8&ll=48.385998,-89.246171&spn=0.001906,0.003841&t=k&z=18&om=0)

Vickers Park, Downtown (http://www.google.ca/maps?q=Thunder+Bay,+ON,+Canada&ie=UTF8&t=k&om=0&ll=48.379863,-89.260944&spn=0.001906,0.003841&z=18)

Minnesota Park, Downtown (http://www.google.ca/maps?q=Thunder+Bay,+ON,+Canada&ie=UTF8&t=k&om=0&ll=48.395306,-89.239444&spn=0.001906,0.003841&z=18)

Dease Park, Downtown (http://www.google.ca/maps?q=Thunder+Bay,+ON,+Canada&ie=UTF8&t=k&om=0&ll=48.390494,-89.250119&spn=0.001906,0.003841&z=18)

Marina Park, Downtown (http://www.google.ca/maps?q=Thunder+Bay,+ON,+Canada&ie=UTF8&t=k&om=0&ll=48.435906,-89.214644&spn=0.001904,0.003841&z=18)

Waverley Park, Downtown (http://www.google.ca/maps?q=Thunder+Bay,+ON,+Canada&ie=UTF8&t=k&om=0&ll=48.437348,-89.226419&spn=0.001904,0.003841&z=18). Additionally, Waverley Park is Ontario's second oldest municipal park, and it's 110 year old trees reach heights in excess of 30m, one is almost 45m.

Hillcrest Park, Downtown (http://www.google.ca/maps?q=Thunder+Bay,+ON,+Canada&ie=UTF8&t=k&om=0&ll=48.434326,-89.234143&spn=0.003808,0.007682&z=17)

County Park, in the suburbs (http://www.google.ca/maps?q=Thunder+Bay,+ON,+Canada&ie=UTF8&t=k&om=0&ll=48.457427,-89.247308&spn=0.003807,0.007682&z=17)

Unnamed park, in the suburbs (http://www.google.ca/maps?q=Thunder+Bay,+ON,+Canada&ie=UTF8&t=k&om=0&ll=48.43224,-89.269731&spn=0.003808,0.007682&z=17). Incidentally, every time I have driven by that park, I have never seen anyone using it....

Toivo Park, in the suburbs (http://www.google.ca/maps?q=Thunder+Bay,+ON,+Canada&ie=UTF8&t=k&om=0&ll=48.453627,-89.275557&spn=0.003807,0.007682&z=17) Note the hydro corridor

Northwood Playfield, in the suburbs (http://www.google.ca/maps?q=Thunder+Bay,+ON,+Canada&ie=UTF8&t=k&om=0&ll=48.398038,-89.29135&spn=0.003811,0.007682&z=17)

Northwood Park, in the suburbs (http://www.google.ca/maps?q=Thunder+Bay,+ON,+Canada&ie=UTF8&t=k&om=0&ll=48.391826,-89.283764&spn=0.003812,0.007682&z=17&iwloc=addr)

Norway Park. (http://www.google.ca/maps?q=Thunder+Bay,+ON,+Canada&ie=UTF8&t=k&om=0&ll=48.307012,-89.379594&spn=0.003818,0.007682&z=17) Yes, this is a suburban park.. Even being in the bush prevents it from having trees!!

Now, look at those, and with a straight face, tell me that "Suburban parks are better because they have trees, urban parks are just patches of grass with nothing".

[nec209]

I was in Regina and I never found much traffic on the grid street where the homes are .


I find the down-town do to land use patterns even on a main street or a market street is safer than the suburbs do to apartments, condos,office towers,store fronts and homes safer:) do to the stop and go and stop and go and foot traffic crossing the street this slows traffic down and city posts 40KM or 50KM and do to stop and go and stop and go cars cannot go speeding when every block you have to stop.

In the suburbs now the collector roads are not safe do to traffic going 80KM very fast and much more traffic than the old CBD do to lack of collector roads and lack of roads to displace the traffic.I can't walk to power centers,malls,box store why because collector roads are like min 401 or 410 highways and cars go speeding by and there so much traffic.They don't build much on collector roads now why they want trafic going than the stop and go and stop and go :( and if they build on collector roads they build walls around subdivisions and put power centers,malls,box store at major intersections.So walking is bad and putting bus stops on those min highways even more bad.

I'm stunk in my subdivision and cannot go to other subdivisions or any where in the city do to the dangerous collector roads and because of the lack of collector roads and anti-grid system and to go from (A) to (B) yes I have to walk up than down than west than up than west again.Why because anti-grid system do this.


We are pleased to present the Final Report of the Task Force on Community Safety.

You recognized crime prevention as a top priority for action when you created our Task Force at the first meeting of City Council for the new City of Toronto in January 1998.

Toronto is one of the safest cities in the world, and the safest large city in North America. The challenge is to build on our strengths as a city, in order to make Toronto a safer place for everyone.

http://www.toronto.ca/safety/sftyrprt.htm

[m0nkyman]

1 Do you hate the grid system?
Freaking love it.
2 Do you hate the store-fronts?
I live and work in a storefront. Freaking love it.
3 Do you hate the foot traffic
Freaking love it.
4 Do you hate the side walks]
Freaking love 'em.
5 Do you hate the way the city looks?
I love the urban form. I love the density. I love the sirens, the shouting, the laughing.
6 Do you hate the crime?
Yes. It isn't notably different suburb vs urban though, so it's irrellevant.
7 Do you hate the rough streets or bad areas?
Nope. I'm not keen on them, but poorer areas are as necessary as the posh. I prefer areas of mixed incomes though.

[vid]

"I was in Regina and I never found much traffic on the grid street where the homes are ."

The person who mentioned that was in Winnipeg, they have a French style street grid, like Windsor, to the blocks are very long, which probably results in people speeding. Additionally, on busy grid streets people will speed through them.

One way my city has worked on alleviating that problem is by taking out portions of road and ending them in cul-de-sacs, and inserting parks in them to prevent speeders. Other places my have an unusual intersection. Another part of town has a grid that bends 45° halfway through, or will mis-align the grid between grids at busy streets to prevent through traffic, making people wait for left hand turns if they try to take a short cut.

Some examples:

http://maps.google.ca/maps?f=q&hl=en&q=Thunder+Bay,+ON&ie=UTF8&ll=48.436177,-89.24396&spn=0.007616,0.015364&t=h&z=16&om=0

The grid here is interrupted by Carrick Park, which allows community green space, has two schools and a community centre, and a store. It also prevents through traffic on Hodge, Bay, and Cornwall.

http://maps.google.ca/maps?f=q&hl=en&q=Thunder+Bay,+ON&ie=UTF8&t=h&om=0&ll=48.449952,-89.254925&spn=0.001904,0.003841&z=18

This intersection prevents through traffic. This keeps people at the Safeway from speeding down Dublin, and diverts them to Strand, a designated collector street.

http://maps.google.ca/maps?f=q&hl=en&q=Thunder+Bay,+ON&ie=UTF8&t=h&om=0&ll=48.390301,-89.241793&spn=0.007623,0.015364&z=16

The grid in McKeller turns about 45°, making shortcuts between Simpson and May pretty much useless, and making people slow down when they turn.

http://maps.google.ca/maps?f=q&hl=en&q=Thunder+Bay,+ON&ie=UTF8&t=k&om=0&ll=48.44829,-89.230657&spn=0.007615,0.015364&z=16

The grid system in Grandview does no align on both sides of River, preventing people from speeding through on side streets. Frequent stop signs on side streets prevent speeding. Along Red River Road, where grids match, people will avoid High and Junot by going down Hill or Rockwood, speeding through Red River Road, and in many cases causing accidents, all to save a few minutes.

Most of our grid streets get very light traffic, streets that are prone to shortcut traffic have stop signs installed when a problem is identified to east the problem.

[SpongeG]

people have different tastes

some love the suburbs with its Olive Gardens and Starbucks drive thrus

others love the City with its independant restaurants and Starbucks

i think a lot of it boils down to where the best schools are - i know a lot of people who pre-kids loved the city and iving in it but as soon as kids came along they moved to the suburbs for the better schools and better "enviornment" for their children

than other parents embrace the inner city and its multicultural schools - and "realism" that their kids get exposed to

what is funny or odd is kids who grown up in the city and than move to the suburbs the first chance they get - where as kids who grew up in the suburbs do the opposite if only for a while

[WaterlooInvestor]

The park issue is a joke. Although there are parks all over Waterloo Region, two of the best parks are urban. Look at these pictures and try telling me these parks are "flat grass-covered squares with no large trees - like parking lots covered in grass."

1) Victoria Park, Downtown Kitchener

http://i196.photobucket.com/albums/aa262/AndrewEH/VictoriaParkGoogleSatellite.jpg

http://i196.photobucket.com/albums/aa262/AndrewEH/VictoriaPark.jpg

http://img182.imageshack.us/img182/4934/victoriaparkpathoc7.jpg

http://img182.imageshack.us/img182/9738/victoriaparkislandpu6.jpg

2) Waterloo Park, Uptown Waterloo

http://i196.photobucket.com/albums/aa262/AndrewEH/WaterlooParkGoogleSatellite.jpg

http://i196.photobucket.com/albums/aa262/AndrewEH/WaterlooPark-SilverLake-1.jpg

[Cambridgite]

I know!! I love Waterloo and Victoria Parks! (but especially Victoria Park) :)

I'm not sure about Winnipeg and the quality of its inner city (I hear its inner city can be a little rough), but out here, there's really not much reason to keep your kids out of the inner city, other than the fact that a lot of schools are closing down, which you can thank because of the collective decisions by parents to move to the newest suburbs.

[psych1]

I jsut want to respopnd to a couple of your points Roger. I don't have any hard stats, but put my personal experience against yours. I also have kids, and my perspective is vey different than yours. The only child in the large circle of families (urban and suburnban) I know who has been hit by a car, was hit by his own mother rushing out of her suburban driveway. Because she is used to the limited traffic on her cul de sac, she did not think to check the driveway behind her car. Fortunately the little guy was not seriously hurt, but the point is, we adapt to the environment we live in. my kids who have been brough up in an urban neighborhood, know it is not safe to go on the street and through my training, they don't. Therefore they are absolutely safe from being hit on the street. On the other hand, their suburban friends when visiting us, appear to have no understanding of vehicular traffic and dart onto the road regularly.

With regard to vandalism, my suburban freinds experience much more graffiti and mindless property damage than I do. I find that suburbanites can be somewhat compalcent due to a misplaced sense of security. They are not as watchful of their neighborhoods and often never see their neighbors. Suburban neighborhoods, with cul de sacs which empty during the day, and many hidden pathways to accomodate pedestrian traffic which can't get around otherwise, are a magnet for graffiti and other property damage.

I think people are led by a false sense of what suburbs offer when they have children. The developers of course sell the suburban lifestyle, because they build suburbs. Ther is noone to market urban housing, so of course people buy into what the developers say.

[QUOTE=Roger Strong;2892947]
I'll address your points one at a time. Keep in mind that I have kids, which changes one's priorities.

> 1 Do you hate the grid system?

Yes, for two reasons:

- It's more dangerous for kids. On a bay or cove, there's no through-traffic, so people aren't in a hurry. It's safe for your kids to ride their bikes. On a grid system street, *every* street is a shortcut from one place to another. Most traffic is through-traffic, and it's travelling a lot faster.

- On a grid system street, even pedestrian traffic is usually through-traffic. this leads to a lot more vandalism. We get kids pulling down branches, hitting everything (including cars) with sticks, etc as they walk up the back lane on the way to school - even checking for unlocked car doors to steal change. Leave anything in your back yard, and they'll simply take it.

On a bay or cove, you know everyone going down the street; there's far more sense of community. You know who the parents are, so you can ask them to put a stop to it.

[Roger Strong]

On the other hand, their suburban friends when visiting us, appear to have no understanding of vehicular traffic and dart onto the road regularly.
Well we have different experiences then. I find that kids will be kids, regardless of whether they're in an urban or suburban setting. At the end of the day, slower traffic and less traffic is safer.

I was responding to the strange notion that suburban areas have less "soul" than the gridiron streets of downtown. Among other things, a suburban street where the kids can play street hockey simply seems to have more "soul" than a street with faster heavier traffic where it's not an option.

Suburban neighborhoods, with cul de sacs which empty during the day, and many hidden pathways to accomodate pedestrian traffic which can't get around otherwise, are a magnet for graffiti and other property damage.

For me this is like someone telling me reasons why the sun rises in the west and sets in the east. No matter how good the reasons sound, they don't counter the simple fact that I can look out my window and see the sun rising in the east and setting in the west.

I've lived in several places each in downtown and in the suburbs. I have friends living in both. I visit both every week. I live downtown right now. So, I have a good sampling of both. I've both seen and experienced *much* more graffiti and other property damage downtown than in the suburbs.

I think people are led by a false sense of what suburbs offer when they have children.

Worse: They're led by an ACCURATE sense of what suburbs offer when they have children. I learned this the hard way.

The developers of course sell the suburban lifestyle, because they build suburbs. Ther is noone to market urban housing, so of course people buy into what the developers say.

Again, this sounds like someone argueing that "it's merely developers who are marketing the idea that the sun rises in the east." Nope, I've experienced the sun rising in the east for myself, and I've experienced the levels of crime in both downtown and in the suburbs for myself.

Granted, my experience is primarily in Winnipeg. No doubt at least some cities may have fixed their urban areas.

[zaphod]

In the suburban neighborhood I grew up in there were no other kids to play with, and you couldnt ride your bike very far before you ran into a busy 4 lane highway. There were no parks either, to go to the swimming pool for instance, you had to drive 5 miles across town. Where I lived was built long before I got there, and the majority of residents were older who's children moved out of the house. The school I went to had lagging enrollment compared to the newer areas. I think a lot of people there lived in a bubble, our neighbors were rude and the one time we counted on their daughter to watch our pets, she never came over and my dog crapped all over the house and was dehydrated and hungry....


I loved visiting my grandma's house in a small town here in texas. Me and my cousins would get bored sitting around(it was just a tiny house in a poor area) so we'd walk down the street to the convenience store and around the downtown area, sometimes we'd sneak into the area by the catholic school to climb a tree(until a nun caught us). This town of course followed a strict grid system. And it wasnt a rich place either, but there was zero crime. Everyone knew each other.

My opinion is that its the quality of the people. Where I was raised none of us would vandalise anything or hit cars with sticks.... I know this sounds un-PC, but was that neighborhood kind of ghetto?? I mean, ive been in some really really awful crappy suburbs that have had white flight worse than the inner city. Another relative of mine lives on loop with a cul-de-sac like you describe, but in southwest houston.....on her street there was a drive by shooting...

I agree, I dont think its fair to say suburbs always have less "social capital" than the city, butmy point is, its pretty now but when they build a fancy place with a fake pond a few miles down the road, watch your back....

[m0nkyman]

Grid vs Curved streets is not the same as suburban vs rural. Nor is one inherently safer than the other.

Small towns like Kingston, ON or Courtenay, BC have grid systems that are very safe to play road hockey on.

On the flip side, I can't see anyone playing street hockey on Mississauga Valley Road....

[IntotheWest]

I hate spawl (but I recently bought a house in the suburbs).
I hate big box retailers (but I must confess that I shop there).
I hate the auto-centric, cul-de-sac nature of suburbia (but hell, I have a car; have to have one!).
I hate the soulness of the suburbs (but then, why did I move there?)

Perhaps I am a hypocrite. But the effects of marriage, career, kids, and other life changes manifest themselves in mysterious ways.

Very well put...and I'm in the same boat :-)

[spiritedenergy]

I've lived in both urban and suburban settings, several places each, and in different cities. Currently I'm in an urban area - Winnipeg's West End. It's by no means the worst urban area of Winnipeg.

I'll address your points one at a time. Keep in mind that I have kids, which changes one's priorities.

> 1 Do you hate the grid system?

Yes, for two reasons:

- It's more dangerous for kids. On a bay or cove, there's no through-traffic, so people aren't in a hurry. It's safe for your kids to ride their bikes. On a grid system street, *every* street is a shortcut from one place to another. Most traffic is through-traffic, and it's travelling a lot faster.

- On a grid system street, even pedestrian traffic is usually through-traffic. this leads to a lot more vandalism. We get kids pulling down branches, hitting everything (including cars) with sticks, etc as they walk up the back lane on the way to school - even checking for unlocked car doors to steal change. Leave anything in your back yard, and they'll simply take it.

On a bay or cove, you know everyone going down the street; there's far more sense of community. You know who the parents are, so you can ask them to put a stop to it.

> Do you hate the store-fronts?

I prefer the store fronts - another reason to be in the suburbs. Every time I lived in the suburbs, we weren't far from a major grocery store - and a drug store, and dental office, bank, etc.

Here in the West End, you have to get in a car for these. Yeah, there's little mini-marts, but the prices are higher, the food older, and the selection almost nonexistent. When you have a family member with diabetis and another with a milk allergy, the mini-marts aren't an option. And there's no banks, drug stores, dental offices. (We just got a Zimmy Diamonds. Whoop-de-do.)

> Do you hate the foot traffic

In the suburbs my wife could go for a walk in the evening, and be safe. No so in urban areas like the West End.

> Do you hate the side walks

Without the high-speed through traffic, the bays and coves don't need them. The main routes in the suburbs DO have them.

The suburbs tend to also have bike paths - urban areas don't have the room.

> Do you hate the way the city looks?

I like green space and actual parks and bike paths, which you get in the suburbs. Here in the West End, a "park" is a featureless green square - like a parking lot with grass.

> Do you hate the crime?

Yes. Our car has been broken into twice in the last month. We caught one of the kids one time and handed him over to the police. Being 11, all the police could do is take his big screwdriver away and hand him over to the "parents". He finished the job a couple days later.

The urban area also have far more rapes, murders and drive-by shootings than the suburbs. (Lest you think I've been watching too much TV, we had a drive-by shooting a block north of us a couple years ago. A girl was randomly shot a couple blocks away three weeks ago. There's a trial on right now for a drive-by shooting a few blocks away that killed an innocent bystander and injured another.)

And fires. The day we caught the kid breaking into our car, vandals fire to a house on his block. The next day on the same block they set fire to the house's garage, which eventually destroyed four garages, two houses, and further damaged two more houses. The next weekend, another fire. Dunno about last weekend.

> Do you hate the rough streets or bad areas?

Yes. Now that I have a family, even more so.

I prefered the urban/downtown when I was single, but moving to an urban area with a family was a terrible mistake.

I don't really think that you're portraying the West End as it truly is... it's probably the most urban, diverse and interesting part of Winnipeg.

You'd be honest to say that you are a suburban type (for family or whichever reason) and hate density, that's it.

P.s.: the lack of park, the crime etc. are not really linked to urban/suburban areas.

P.p.s.: also, if you're so worried, why do let your kids going in the street? Nevertheless, of course without encountering very bad people, i think they'll learn much more from playing and meeting people in the street than from staying in a secluded and lifeless suburbia.

[Roger Strong]

I don't really think that you're portraying the West End as it truly is... it's probably the most urban, diverse and interesting part of Winnipeg.


I don't deny that it's more urban and diverse - and I'm quite happy with both. But it also has a much higher crime rate than the suburbs, from vandalism to arson to random and drive-by shootings. It also has much less park space - official or unofficial - than most Winnipeg suburbs. And the traffic is heavier and faster too.

You'd be honest to say that you are a suburban type (for family or whichever reason) and hate density, that's it.


If I'm a "suburban type" now, it's only because I now have a family and I've experiences what the West End is like - and the West End is by no means the worst urban area in Winnipeg.

As for density, when I was single, I preferred it. (I previously lived for ten years in Fort Garry Place. With three mixed residential/office towers, a mall, at least three restaurants, ball rooms, four levels of parking with a car wash, indoor swimming pools and gyms, grocery store, city garage, government offices, hotel suites, etc....., it's the closest thing to an arcology we have. I'm a fan of the arcology concept.)

Now that I'm single, priorities have changed. They don't rule out density, but the high price and near-nonexistent availability of three-bedroom apartments in 2003 meant buying a house.


P.s.: the lack of park, the crime etc. are not really linked to urban/suburban areas.

No, but in Winnipeg, as more than just a general rule of thumb, they are.

i think they'll learn much more from playing and meeting people in the street than from staying in a secluded and lifeless suburbia.

The West-End is far more secluded - and *effectively* lifeless - than suburbia.

Suburban bays and coves - where you tend to know everyone - have a far greater sense of community than he West-End with it's large amount of anonymous through-traffic. The lower crime rates mean that people are outside more - especially in the evenings. They don't have to fortify their yards like in the West End.

Kids can play street hockey in suburbia. The higher speed and volume of traffic here in the West End rules that out. (With the grid system, *every* street is a high-speed shortcut, especially when the main routes are clogged. Not so with bays and coves.)

Everywhere I've lived in the suburbs, we were close to decent grocery stores, banking, dentists, clinics, drug stores, etc. Here in the West End, we have to drive everywhere.

[kool maudit]

winnipeg can't possibly be as south bronxy as r.s. implies.

[Roger Strong]

winnipeg can't possibly be as south bronxy as r.s. implies.

I wouldn't call the crime rate here bad enough to be "south bronxy". I'm merely saying that the the crime rate downtown here is considerably higher than in the suburbs. And contrary to what some say, it's the suburbs (at least in Winnipeg) that have more sense of community and "soul".

[kool maudit]

well, i've never really been to winnipeg so i can't comment on your exact neighbourhood there.

more generally, just build it like this and everyone'll be fine:

http://www.urbanphoto.net/temp/photothreads/may/01/43.jpg

[Marc B.]

winnipeg can't possibly be as south bronxy as r.s. implies.

It isn't.

And contrary to what some say, it's the suburbs (at least in Winnipeg) that have more sense of community and "soul".

So, that means you not coming to the next WUI meeting?

[nec209]

On the flip side, I can't see anyone playing street hockey on Mississauga Valley Road....

The thread is not goinng anywhere it is turning into winnipeg is your texbook of urban and suburb.:hell:

You do have to understand Winnipeg and Regina has the highest crime than any other city.

And most of NW and down-town people are poor.You burn the homes down they will have to go some where.

Toronto and Vancouver are economic hub we don't have Winnipeg or Regina problems.And most of crime in Toronto is in the Jane and finch and jane and albion witch is walk in park to harlem or areas of detroit..

see my other reply.

[spiritedenergy]

I wouldn't call the crime rate here bad enough to be "south bronxy". I'm merely saying that the the crime rate downtown here is considerably higher than in the suburbs. And contrary to what some say, it's the suburbs (at least in Winnipeg) that have more sense of community and "soul".

you should make clear that you are speaking for yourself because i personally don't agree with any word you're saying.

drive by shooting???? are you on drugs or something??? or you're probably reading too much The Sun.

I have a girl friend who lives in the suburbs (Fort Richmond) and have been molested by a man in a car just after dusk while walking home... I have a girl friend who lives in downtown and enjoys very much. If you think you'll be safe from devil in the suburbs, you're so wrong.

I lived in Fort Richmond for some months and nobody was playing hockey in the street never, they play in their backyard. I have a friend who lives in the suburbs and he's got threat letters (or whatever they are called) from neighbors, which where written with newspaper letters and saying that they would have tortured his cats if he wouldn't have kept them inside. Another friend in Fort Richmond got the same treatment...

There is no life in those suburbs, they are fake as hell and most of the people wouldn't give a damn if you were dying inside you home, as long as you keep it quiet. And where did you live that you could walk to a grocery store in a suburb??? That's simply impossible in Winnipeg. At least in downtown you can find some quality grocery stores that don't sell shit like safeway and superstore.

I do only agree that most of the suburbs in Winnipeg look nice thanks to the huge amount of trees. If you want an interesting community, you may check out Wildwood.

[Roger Strong]

drive by shooting???? are you on drugs or something???

- There was one a block north of us a couple years ago.

- Last month a teenage girl was randomly shot a couple blocks away just walking down the back lane.

- Daniel Mac high school a couple blocks away was locked down earlier this month because of someone nearby walking around with a gun - with shots fired.

- A local gang member was shot on the sidewalk a few blocks away in April. I don't remember the details, but he was refusing the cooperate with police.

- The first night in thier new home a couple years ago, the folks across the street were told to stay in their basement - thier house was hit by gunfire then the police took down a grow-op across the back lane. (Or is this the West End Welcome Wagon? The police, complete with dogs, staged on *our* front lawn looking for a robber the first night in our new home.)

- In 2005 the second of two drive-by shootings on McGee Street left one innocent bystander wounded and another dead. They were simply walking down the sidewalk when two drug gangs started exchanging gunfire. The victim who was killed had a previous run-in - he was sitting in his car when a man with a gun jumped in the back, ordered him to a cash machine, and emptied his account.

- I know I'm forgetting a few, also within the last few years.

So no, I'm not "on drugs or something"; I'm simply paying attentiobn. People do that when the shootings are nearby.

[Roger Strong]

I lived in Fort Richmond for some months and nobody was playing hockey in the street never, they play in their backyard.

In Southdale where I grew up, and in other areas where friends and relatives grew up, they did.

Are you really denying the popularity of street hockey?

There is no life in those suburbs, they are fake as hell

And yet somehow, you can't seem to make a convincing arguement in favor of this claim. No explanation at all of how a *grid* system of streets is somehow less "fake".

At least in downtown you can find some quality grocery stores that don't sell shit like safeway and superstore.
Note: I'm talking about Winnipeg's downtown here, not cities in general.

No doubt you can only get some root from Vietnam that can only be harvested by the full moon at low tide, downtown.

But if you want decent prices or fresh food, you're going at least to Polo Park for Safeway and Superstore. I recently LIVED downtown for ten years, and more before that. I shopped almost exclusively at the small downtown stores.

But I had to pay more, and more than once I discovered that a food item was before the past-due-date for *the year before*. (And once, on some frozen rasberries, two years before.) The high stock turn-over in the big food stores prevents this from happenning.

Now I have a family, and different priorities. If you have a family, you buy food in larger amounts. Those small downtown stores don't carry large sized *anything*. So you pay even more.

Nor do the downtown stores have much selection. If people in your family have diabetis, or a milk allergy, or a peanut allergy where you need to *know* that the food isn't contaminated, those tiny shops aren't an option.

If you want you're Vietnamese root (which you can probably get at Supervalue anyway, but not Safeway or Sobeys), by all means shop downtown. Most people have other priorities.

[vid]

"The high stock turn-over in the big food stores prevents this from happenning."

Working at Safeway earlier this year, I found some cheese sticks that were 423 days past their due date. :) In searching through one freezer bunk, I found almost 1000$ worth of spoiled merchandise, each item an average of 120 days past it's expiration date. The high stock turn-over in big food stores doesn't prevent expired food from being sold. Watchful employees does. Nobody bought those cheese sticks because they were expired. Nobody checked those cheese sticks because they were always stocked. I spent most of my time for the remaining 3 weeks working there scouring the entire meat department for expired food, and recovered no less than 350 pounds of it.

Big stores aren't fool proof. I'm sorry. Things do slip through the cracks.

"Those small downtown stores don't carry large sized *anything*."

Yes they do. The same store sells 64 count waffles, 18 count hot dogs, and gallon jugs of milk. Downtown no less! Additionally, that downtown Safeway is the smallest and one of the busiest in this zone. (The Winnipeg zone.)

"Nor do the downtown stores have much selection. If people in your family have diabetis, or a milk allergy, or a peanut allergy where you need to *know* that the food isn't contaminated, those tiny shops aren't an option."

There is a small grocery store here that actually caters to people like that. If you have a milk or peanut allergy, don't purchase from the store deli or bakery, especially food made in the store, regardless of chain.

And there is nothing stopping people that live downtown from going to the suburbs to shop. I live in downtown, and Walmart is just a five minute bus ride away. Surely Winnipeg is more convenient than Thunder Bay, no?

[spiritedenergy]

In Southdale where I grew up, and in other areas where friends and relatives grew up, they did.

Are you really denying the popularity of street hockey?



And yet somehow, you can't seem to make a convincing arguement in favor of this claim. No explanation at all of how a *grid* system of streets is somehow less "fake".


Note: I'm talking about Winnipeg's downtown here, not cities in general.

No doubt you can only get some root from Vietnam that can only be harvested by the full moon at low tide, downtown.

But if you want decent prices or fresh food, you're going at least to Polo Park for Safeway and Superstore. I recently LIVED downtown for ten years, and more before that. I shopped almost exclusively at the small downtown stores.

But I had to pay more, and more than once I discovered that a food item was before the past-due-date for *the year before*. (And once, on some frozen rasberries, two years before.) The high stock turn-over in the big food stores prevents this from happenning.

Now I have a family, and different priorities. If you have a family, you buy food in larger amounts. Those small downtown stores don't carry large sized *anything*. So you pay even more.

Nor do the downtown stores have much selection. If people in your family have diabetis, or a milk allergy, or a peanut allergy where you need to *know* that the food isn't contaminated, those tiny shops aren't an option.

If you want you're Vietnamese root (which you can probably get at Supervalue anyway, but not Safeway or Sobeys), by all means shop downtown. Most people have other priorities.

fresh food at safeway/superstore??? not really

[Xelebes]

Fresher than many of the stores he has been to, apparently.

[spiritedenergy]

Fresher than many of the stores he has been to, apparently.

well he apparently has a car... if he really wants fresh food than should go to other places than those. Safeway/superstore are exactly like small groceries downtown, just bigger. There are also organic stores downtown, a friend of mine wanted to go there just to buy fresh food, but i'm not sure which one.

[someone123]

Aren't those Montreal flats kind of loud unless you live upstairs?

One thing I like about rowhouses is that you hear your neighbours very little.

Does Winnipeg have housing projects?

[SpongeG]

"The high stock turn-over in the big food stores prevents this from happenning."

Working at Safeway earlier this year, I found some cheese sticks that were 423 days past their due date. In searching through one freezer bunk, I found almost 1000$ worth of spoiled merchandise, each item an average of 120 days past it's expiration date. The high stock turn-over in big food stores doesn't prevent expired food from being sold. Watchful employees does. Nobody bought those cheese sticks because they were expired. Nobody checked those cheese sticks because they were always stocked. I spent most of my time for the remaining 3 weeks working there scouring the entire meat department for expired food, and recovered no less than 350 pounds of it.

Big stores aren't fool proof. I'm sorry. Things do slip through the cracks.

"Those small downtown stores don't carry large sized *anything*."

Yes they do. The same store sells 64 count waffles, 18 count hot dogs, and gallon jugs of milk. Downtown no less! Additionally, that downtown Safeway is the smallest and one of the busiest in this zone. (The Winnipeg zone.)

"Nor do the downtown stores have much selection. If people in your family have diabetis, or a milk allergy, or a peanut allergy where you need to *know* that the food isn't contaminated, those tiny shops aren't an option."

There is a small grocery store here that actually caters to people like that. If you have a milk or peanut allergy, don't purchase from the store deli or bakery, especially food made in the store, regardless of chain.

And there is nothing stopping people that live downtown from going to the suburbs to shop. I live in downtown, and Walmart is just a five minute bus ride away. Surely Winnipeg is more convenient than Thunder Bay, no?

do they have to lock up the cheese there?

at the super value on davie in vancouver's west end they keep the cheese all locked up as well as other grocery items... they also charge double in some cases on the same item at the suburban store - like they were selling some cookies for $4.99 where as the suburb had them for $2.89 - stuff like that

no one shops there unless they really have to but it is open 24 hours and convenient

[vid]

They don't lock up the cheese but you'd be amazed at how much meat get stolen in the month. one guy almost got away with about 550$ worth of steaks and roasts, but my coworker ran after him with a knife, cursing at him in Italian. It was hilarious. :)

Prices at all Safeways are the same over the city, downtown and suburban, the downtown one just has less quantity. The suburban stores will have 200 boxes of oreos, the downtown one will have 120, and order more a day earlier than the suburban ones.

And in my experience, it's stores like Safeway and A&P, or the Farmers market, or really expensive local grocers, that have the best produce. Locally owned stores in the same catagory as Safeway (Same size and product range) tend to have poorer produce stock (IE Renco Foods, locally owned, always had soft potatoes and moldy fruit) and it's the same story with many of the things at Superstore and I would imagine Wal-mart and any other similar stores, with the exception of some imported things. Superstore is the only place that sells durians and such.

Now explain the cheese lock up. Is there a cheese snorting epidemic going on there? :shrug: The only thing Safeway locks up is prescription drugs or cigarettes. (Either/or, selling both under one roof is illegal.)

[vid]

@Dylan: The forum done broked itself a'gin.

[ReginaGuy]

Ahhh, the old "grid vs suburban" neighbourhood debate.. I've heard a lot of claims on these forums with no data or research to back them up. For example:

- "suburban style neighbourhoods lack density"
- "grid style systems lack greenspace"
- "suburban neighbourhoods require more roads"

etc..

So I've decided to do a mini-study, to debunk a few of these claims, and provide a factual comparison of two neighbourhoods. One, a grid system built in the early-to-mid 1900's, and the second, a street hierarchy system (suburban) build in the 1980's-to-present.

Both areas are in Regina, SK, are similar in area, and are almost entirely residential.

First, a map showing the two areas. Number (1) is the grid system, and number (2) is the hierarchy system
http://img402.imageshack.us/img402/8464/mapkl8.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

Second, a closeup comparison of the street layouts. (note: same scale, the pictures don't show the whole area, obviously)
http://img404.imageshack.us/img404/6708/closeuplv2.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

Now, some statistics.. (source: Statistics Canada, 2006)
GRID NEIGHBOURHOOD
population: 5,074
area: 1.96 km sq
density: 2,586.4 ppl/km sq
corrected area*: 1.66 km sq
corrected density*: 3,056.6 ppl/km sq
Dwellings: 2,526
People/Dwelling: 2.01
KM's of Road: 26.416km
KM's of Alleys: 14.044km
Total: 40.46 km
Greenspace**: 248,406 m sq



HIERARCHY NEIGHBOURHOOD
population: 6,187
area: 1.93 sq km
density: 3,200.7 ppl/km sq
Dwellings: 2,147
People/Dwelling: 2.88
KM's of Road: 21.934 km
KM's of Alleys: 0.000km
Total: 21.934 km
Greenspace**: 224,201 m sq


*corrected area/density - a portion of area 1 was commercial, so to make things fair, I subtracted the area of the commercial zones. note: even with the correction, the suburban neighbourhood is still denser

** greenspace: I considered greenspace to be any public area/building that wasn't residential (ie: parks, football stadium, rec center..)

CONCLUSION
That's right, despite having larger homes and winding streets, the suburban style neighbourhood actually has a higher population density and less km's of road! (less than half, if you include all of the Alleys in the older area!) Are you surprised? I sure was. What's even more surprising is that the grid-style neighbourhood has more greenspace

What does this prove? Well, nothing really, since I only compared two neighbourhoods.. but it does clearly show that with proper design, suburban style areas can actually be more economically efficient (and have a higher density) than grid systems!

[MonkeyRonin]

What does this prove? Well, nothing really, since I only compared two neighbourhoods.. but it does clearly show that with proper design, suburban style areas can actually be more economically efficient (and have a higher density) than grid systems!

They can be denser than certain gridded areas, but grids have the potential to be even denser.

First off, though I'm unfamiliar with the presented neighbourhoods, I'd hazard a guess that the suburban household sizes are larger, which, while adding to the population and subsequent density, doesn't really have a direct impact on the built form.

But more importantly, suburban streets simply cannot efficiently contain higher population densities. People need to get around, and in subdivisions, it is too difficult to get around without a car. 10,000 people in square km all driving around is a bit much, traffic would be too heavy, especially as there are fewer kms of road and less possible routes.

Grids on the other hand are more conducive to walking and transit (and even driving), and can hold that higher density. Additionally, cars take up alot of space...driveways, garages, parking lots, and wider roads to accomodate higher traffic - space which can otherwise be used for housing (or retail or greenspace or anything else to make a more liveable neighbourhood).

[m0nkyman]

That commercial area is also critical as it adds pedestrian life to the street. That alone would make me choose area 1 over area 2

[SpongeG]

there was a great article not too long ago about how the grid system is actually better as the twisty windy dead roads of a suburb are not pedestrian friendly or truly walkable as getting from point a to b is a lot harder and has created the car culture we are in today

[e909]

Thing is, grid or not, most people can't take public transit to work in canadian cities.

I live in an "urban grid" area and I have to drive to work, no way around that.

[vid]

"Thing is, grid or not, most people can't take public transit to work in canadian cities."

93% of Thunder Bayers live within 5 minute walking distance of a bus stop. Are you telling me that A) Canadians are too lazy to walk five minutes to a bus stop or B) Most Canadians cities have worse mass transit than Thunder Bay?

[nec209]

there was a great article not too long ago about how the grid system is actually better as the twisty windy dead roads of a suburb are not pedestrian friendly or truly walkable as getting from point a to b is a lot harder and has created the car culture we are in today

People love fashion when one looks at clothes the way the building looks or the city looks and people love change .Welcome to worlds of fads if it music or pop culture or clothes.

The grid system was old and people wanted some thing new that looks different and with cars they can implement twisty windy dead end roads so on.This was not possible with out cars do to walking was impossible.

And there is no way the old urban city will come back to someone takes all the cars off the road.

The twisty windy dead end roads so on over time wil become old and some thing new will come out because people will want a change.

[m0nkyman]

Adaptivity is part of it. The windy roaded suburb is designed for one function, and one function only. Commercial and office activity won't be a natural fit into that type of road structure. Look at what's happened to the beltway in Calgary. SFD's gave way to walkups, which are now being replaced by mid and high rises both residential and commercial. That's the beauty of the grid.

[spiritedenergy]

Thing is, grid or not, most people can't take public transit to work in canadian cities.

I live in an "urban grid" area and I have to drive to work, no way around that.

maybe because public transit sucks in Edmonton? And maybe it sucks because most of the people have cars? And maybe most of the people have cars because they live in the suburbs? Such a mystery...

[e909]

maybe because public transit sucks in Edmonton? And maybe it sucks because most of the people have cars? And maybe most of the people have cars because they live in the suburbs? Such a mystery...
Suburbs can have good transit systems. Edmonton Transit just flat out sucks for all areas except maybe downtown.

[m0nkyman]

Nope. It sucks downtown too.

[nec209]

Suburbs can have good transit systems. Edmonton Transit just flat out sucks for all areas except maybe downtown

Well every suburb is different but no matter how good transit is the suburb will be a suburb and make it hard to get anywhere on foot:banana:

[nec209]

You may what to look at some of the older threads it may explain it better.

Like the Vaughan thread.