[1ajs]

Sask. will sue over equalization: Calvert

Last Updated: Wednesday, June 13, 2007 | 12:40 PM CT

CBC News (http://www.cbc.ca/news/credit.html)


Saskatchewan will launch a lawsuit against the federal government over equalization payments next week, Premier Lorne Calvert said Wednesday.
Calvert said a lawsuit isn't his preferred way to deal with the dispute over the federal program, but he tried negotiations and calling on Saskatchewan MPs to vote against the budget and nothing worked.
"This is a very poor way to run a country," Calvert said.
Equalization is the $12 billion program where Ottawa makes payments to poorer provinces so they can afford the same services and tax rates as the richer provinces.
Thanks to surging oil and gas revenues, Saskatchewan has received virtually no equalization money in the past few years.
During the election campaign, the Conservatives promised to take non-renewable resources like oil and gas out of the equalization formula — a change Calvert said would mean an extra $800 million a year for provincial coffers.

The March 19 budget did remove oil and gas out from the formula, but added a cap on equalization payments. As a result, Saskatchewan is getting $226 million this year and nothing next year.
Calvert said the legal action would not be over a broken campaign promise. Instead, it would be based on the sections of the constitution that require the equalization program be fair and equitable, he said.
The Saskatchewan government will also argue the constitutional principle that natural resources belong to the people of Saskatchewan and the current equalization program violates that principle.
Earlier in the day, Saskatchewan Conservative MP Gerry Ritz insisted in a CBC interview that there had been no promise broken and that his constituents are telling him the budget is an excellent one for Saskatchewan.
Governments in Nova Scotia and Newfoundland and Labrador have also been up in arms over the equalization program.
Nova Scotia MP Bill Casey was kicked out of the Conservative caucus after he voted against the government's budget bill last week.
Casey did the same thing again on the final budget vote Tuesday night. The budget passed a final vote in the House of Commons with all 12 Saskatchewan Conservative Tories voting in favour.

[feepa]

*Alberta watches closely*

[caltrane74]

Its time to end equalization. Obviously some provinces are getting too greedy.

Stand on your own feet dont ask for a handout.

How do you feel asking for a govern't handout when the world economy is surging to record heights? I just dont get it.

[204]

Sounds like they want it both ways: Transfer payments to top up provincial revenues when provincial revenues are low, but when provincial revenues rise, they want to continue the incoming transfer payments to Saskatchewan and not share their increased wealth as other provinces did with Saskatchewan until now.

[alps]

Stand on your own feet dont ask for a handout.

:D Easier said than done.


How do you feel asking for a govern't handout when the world economy is surging to record heights? I just dont get it.
The world economy is surging to record heights, not the economies of Saskatchewan and the Atlantic provinces..

It's not as if an effort to improve things isn't being made.

[The Kid]

I too agree that it's time to end equalization. There has to be some better way to help provinces that need a little help that doesn't keep pitting the provinces against each other, and against the Feds.

Equalization contributes dramatically to division in this country and doesn't seem to be fostering any sense of nationalism, infact it's having the opposite effect.

[PhilippeMtl]

They just have to leave Canada if they are not happy.

Bunch of crying babies...

Tssssssssssssss.

[ErickMontreal]

I too agree that it's time to end equalization. There has to be some better way to help provinces that need a little help that doesn't keep pitting the provinces against each other, and against the Feds.

Equalization contributes dramatically to division in this country and doesn't seem to be fostering any sense of nationalism, infact it's having the opposite effect.

Agree, the provinces should be able to manage their own income tax. Give more power to the provinces to run their own business in their own competences. The decentralization of power will slow dissatisfaction down between the provinces. Either Alberta or BC do not have the same priorities than Quebec as well as Ontario for increase.

[bluenoser]

I would mostly support ending equalization and provinces thus being forced to generate all of their own wealth. On the other hand, we are one whole country, not 10/13 different ones and I find it hard to consider exactly how much that should come into play. It's difficult because we are such a large and varied country and traditionally different parts have prospered more at different times. I guess maybe equalization should only come into play for more extreme circumstances of disparity, where I don't see any of our provinces right now. That would (should) also lead to better governing and allocation in the 'have-not' provinces and less wasteful spending.

Anyway I think that, other than Alberta and Ontario, we'd all need a bit more of a plan to work more towards equalization independence and so it's not really fair right now to just flat out deny these provinces a lot of money that they're currently entitled to (if that's indeed the case).

[HAMRetrofit]

Start developing cities that actually add value. Start innovating ways to make money and manufacture import replacements for goods and services.

Stop standing on your hands as resources fly out of the province. Ottawa is not going to come to the rescue so you might as well start taking action.

[1ajs]

i think its time to kill the equalization payments to the provinces and move the money into roads and transit and healthcare and force the provinces to balance their books properly

[The Kid]

i think its time to kill the equalization payments to the provinces and move the money into roads and transit and healthcare and force the provinces to balance their books properly

You may have a point there.......

[vid]

Did you know that the program created to administer equalization to Northern Ontario spends more than 60% of that money in the southern and eastern parts of Ontario?

And we can't even sue them for it.

[feepa]

They just have to leave Canada if they are not happy.

Bunch of crying babies...

Tssssssssssssss.

Hopefully they will take the biggest long term whinners with them, Quebec.

[feepa]

Did you know that the program created to administer equalization to Northern Ontario spends more than 60% of that money in the southern and eastern parts of Ontario?

And we can't even sue them for it.
I'm sure this is directly proportioned to population of said areas?

[circle33]

The world economy is surging to record heights, not the economies of Saskatchewan ...

You might want to do some research on that one.

[CCF]

You might want to do some research on that one.

Beat me to it.

I support Premier Calvert on this. The Conservatives made a promise to the people of Saskatchewan by stating clearly that we would be allowed to keep all revenue from Oil and Gas. However, Mr. Harper obviously told a blatant lie. His promise helped his Sask MP's get elected and he didn't live up to his end of the deal.

[vid]

I'm sure this is directly proportioned to population of said areas?

Let me rephrase this: A program created to aid Northern Ontario (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Northern_Ontario) is being diverted to Eastern (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eastern_Ontario) and Southern (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Southern_Ontario) Ontario.

This is like a program created to fund projects in Edmonton giving money to projects in Regina.

[Dalreg]

They just have to leave Canada if they are not happy.

Bunch of crying babies...

Tssssssssssssss.

Quebec worried about losing its hand outs? If you look here, Saskatchewan is one of the lowest per capita provinces that have actually recieved payments in the past.

Maybe Quebec should take your advice so the rest of the country doesn't have to subsidize it.
http://faculty.marianopolis.edu/c.belanger/quebechistory/stats/equalize.htm

[Dalreg]

Let me rephrase this: A program created to aid Northern Ontario (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Northern_Ontario) is being diverted to Eastern (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eastern_Ontario) and Southern (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Southern_Ontario) Ontario.

This is like a program created to fund projects in Edmonton giving money to projects in Regina.

More like Edmonton and Lethbridge. At least stay in the same province Vid.

[vid]

Same difference. It's still being spent in the wrong place.

[Dalreg]

Same difference. It's still being spent in the wrong place.

Well then send the money to Saskatchewan Vid. We will take Northern Ontarios share.

[e909]

i think its time to kill the equalization payments to the provinces and move the money into roads and transit and healthcare and force the provinces to balance their books properly

quoted for fucking truth..

but oh wait i'm just a greedy fatass albertan. lol.

[vid]

Well then send the money to Saskatchewan Vid. We will take Northern Ontarios share.

But the whole thing was supposed to go to us! It's called Fednor, not Fedallofontario.

As long as this is going on, Ontario is receiving equalization payments.

[1ajs]

quoted for fucking truth..

but oh wait i'm just a greedy fatass albertan. lol.

inless alberta starts to put away for a rainy day it minus well share its money with the rest of us till we abolish this program.....

[Kevin_foster]

inless alberta starts to put away for a rainy day it minus well share its money with the rest of us till we abolish this program.....

Huh? Maybe we need to send money to Man. to get this poor man some spelling lessons!

Anyways, our rain day fund is called the "Heritage Trust Fund" and the balance as of March/07 is approximately $16,300,000,000.

Yes, you read that right. 9 Zeros :tup:

[Halifax Hillbilly]

No one in Alberta likes to mention that for a time in the 50s and 60s when it was not a wealthy province it received equalization payments and the full revenues from its developing resource industries. This is the exact same deal which was given to Nova Scotia and Newfoundland which has now been taken away.

If the population of the Maritime provinces is so lazy how come so many of us are so willing to relocate from our family and places we dearly love to find work? Take a quick look at how many Maritimers and Newfs are in Fort Mac and Calgary. Those people would much rather be working back home.

The Maritime economies are know growing and adding jobs, but since wages are so high in the West we can't compete and have a worker shortage looming. We're not envious of Alberta's growth it just makes it tough to retain anyone under the age of thirty and grow our own economies.

[valleyflyfisher]

Here's some food for thought that I read today on the subject of equalization payments.


Full Comment
Jonathan Kay: Why does Nova Scotia keep insisting that Harper ripped it off?

One of the pathologies of Canadian politics is the endless insistence by Atlantic premiers that they are constantly being ripped off by Ottawa — even though we folks in Ontario (and Alberta) keep shoveling billions of dollars eastward every year.

The latest manifestation of this political illness emanates from the generous deals Paul Martin dished out through his pathetic pay-everybody/pay-anything strategy for staying in political power (otherwise known as the 2005 'Atlantic Accords'). Harper's approach to cleaning up Paul Martin's mess was to try to end the one-off treatment for Newfoundland and Nova Scotia by luring them into a new more universal scheme, while giving them the right to hang on to whatever moolah they got under the Accords. Bizarrely, both N.S. and Newfoundland claim that Harper's approach is ripping them off. In a recent letter, Nova Scotia premier Rodney MacDonald explained his logic:

"Suppose you are an employee in a company and you achieve a bonus from your boss. You take that bonus and put all of it against your mortgage. Two years later the company is doing better so the boss gives everyone a raise. But he gives you a choice between your old salary with the bonus you got two years ago or the raise. But the catch is that if you take the raise you have to pay back the bonus you got. Is that fair?"

Uh, Rodney, I think the answer to that question is "yes."
jkay@nationalpost.com

--------------------------------------------------

majorpriapus said:

Let's get real here...

I am a recovering Albertan living in the Maritimes for almost a decade, and I still shake in disbelief at the Maritimers’ absurd sense of entitlement.

Recently, a bunch of Maritime teachers on probationary contracts were outraged at an “unfair” change of rules. Hitherto, school boards paid “probs” a full year’s salary over 10 months so during the 2 summer months they went on EI provided they still were on probationary contracts. Teachers with full-time contracts had to be content with a full year’s salary without EI top-up.

The rules changed this year – “probs” can no longer use EI to top up their income.

UNFAIR! UNFAIR! UNFAIR! UNFAIR! UNFAIR! UNFAIR! UNFAIR!

The similarity to the fed vs. Maritime premier conflict is most uncanny.

Maritime premiers want it both ways –transfer payments to top up provincial revenues when provincial revenues are low – but, when Maritime provincial revenues rise they want to continue the incoming transfer payments to Maritime provinces and not share their increased wealth as other provinces did with the Maritimes until now.

This reminds me of a bunch of Nova Scotians who petitioned the UN not long ago. The local Cape Breton mine was being shut down because the owners were operating at a loss. The locals petitioned the UN that unemployment caused by the mine would be a violation of their “human rights” and the mine was obliged to continue to operate at a loss.

I only wish I were making this up.

A decade ago, I pointed out to some Nova Scotians that the current total debt carried by Canada (aprox 1 trillion$) was equivalent to the total amount paid by the rest of Canada in income support payments (including EI) over the previous 10 years.

They took umbrage and were most indignant at my rudeness for ignoring their previous contributions to Canada 125 years earlier during Confederation, a sacrifice which entitled them to perpetual subsidy from the rest of Canada.


http://communities.canada.com/nationalpost...f.aspx#comments

[The Kid]

No one in Alberta likes to mention that for a time in the 50s and 60s when it was not a wealthy province it received equalization payments and the full revenues from its developing resource industries. This is the exact same deal which was given to Nova Scotia and Newfoundland which has now been taken away.

If the population of the Maritime provinces is so lazy how come so many of us are so willing to relocate from our family and places we dearly love to find work? Take a quick look at how many Maritimers and Newfs are in Fort Mac and Calgary. Those people would much rather be working back home.

The Maritime economies are know growing and adding jobs, but since wages are so high in the West we can't compete and have a worker shortage looming. We're not envious of Alberta's growth it just makes it tough to retain anyone under the age of thirty and grow our own economies.

Your first paragraph actually explains why the Maritimes should not be entitled to so call "double dip" once they start seeing big returns from resource revenue. Alberta did receive equalization while they developed their resources but once the resources were developed, the equalization gravy train was over and Alberta has paid major leaque into Canada ever since. And by the way, Alberta has paid a "cabillion" times more since than they ever received. Why should the Maritimes expect to develop their oil resources, raking in the cash, but still then have a hand out for the same amount of equalization they have enjoyed in the past??? Alberta didn't get to keep milking eqaulization.

Nothing has been taken away and it drives me crazy when people try to spin it that way. The spin is coming from the media and certain Eastern politicians. The Atlantic accord stands as is if that is what the individual province chooses. Or, depending on what they feel will benefit them the most, they can opt to include half of their resource revenue in their calculation when determing equalization. It's an either or choice.

The problem is the Maritimes want it both ways. They want to get rich off oil resources and still get the same fat hand out from the rest of Canada (primarily Alberta and Ontario).

The truth sometimes hurts I'm afraid.

[ReginaGuy]

I dont know where I stand on this..

on one hand, we don't need the money, but on the other hand, the conservatives did promise us the money

[vid]

Well lets just do what we always do, and reward them for lying. :yes:

[Halifax Hillbilly]

A decade ago, I pointed out to some Nova Scotians that the current total debt carried by Canada (aprox 1 trillion$) was equivalent to the total amount paid by the rest of Canada in income support payments (including EI) over the previous 10 years.

1 TRILLION dollars in combined support payments to Atlantic Canada? The entire Nova Scotia budget for last year was around 6 billion dollars and we account for roughly one third of the population of the Atlantic provinces.

[vid]

I think he means all have-not provinces.

[e909]

Your first paragraph actually explains why the Maritimes should not be entitled to so call "double dip" once they start seeing big returns from resource revenue. Alberta did receive equalization while they developed their resources but once the resources were developed, the equalization gravy train was over and Alberta has paid major leaque into Canada ever since. And by the way, Alberta has paid a "cabillion" times more since than they ever received. Why should the Maritimes expect to develop their oil resources, raking in the cash, but still then have a hand out for the same amount of equalization they have enjoyed in the past??? Alberta didn't get to keep milking eqaulization.

Nothing has been taken away and it drives me crazy when people try to spin it that way. The spin is coming from the media and certain Eastern politicians. The Atlantic accord stands as is if that is what the individual province chooses. Or, depending on what they feel will benefit them the most, they can opt to include half of their resource revenue in their calculation when determing equalization. It's an either or choice.

The problem is the Maritimes want it both ways. They want to get rich off oil resources and still get the same fat hand out from the rest of Canada (primarily Alberta and Ontario).

The truth sometimes hurts I'm afraid.

The truth hurts but it isn't surprising. In this world money is king, and the provinces will do whatever it takes to get the extra little bit.

[jawagord]

No one in Alberta likes to mention that for a time in the 50s and 60s when it was not a wealthy province it received equalization payments and the full revenues from its developing resource industries. This is the exact same deal which was given to Nova Scotia and Newfoundland which has now been taken away.



Wow, not many provinces would ask to be treated with the same "love" as Alberta has been treated with by the Feds. FYI - Albertans received a grand total of 92 million dollars from equalization during the period of 1957-1964 and should have received equalization for longer but the federal government changed the rules to exclude Alberta from receiving more money (simlarily the rules were changed in the mid 80's to prevent Ontario from receiving equalization). If Nova Scotia wants the same 8 years of equalization Alberta had to develop it's O&G resources, then considering Sable Island gas was exported to New England starting in 2000, Nova Scotia should be cut off equalization at the end of 2007. But of course you don't really want Alberta's deal, it just sounds good to say it.

[1ajs]

hmm

Equalization Payments

NFL PEI NS NB QC MB SK BC TOTAL
(millions of dollars)
2006-07 632 291 1,386 1,451 5,539 1,709 13 260 11,281
2007-08Renewed
Equalization 477 294 1,308 1,477 7,160 1,826 226 0 12,768
2008-09
(Projection) 197 310 1,294 1,492 7,622 2,003 0 0 12,918

source: http://www.fin.gc.ca/FEDPROV/eqpe.html

[e909]

Wow, not many provinces would ask to be treated with the same "love" as Alberta has been treated with by the Feds. FYI - Albertans received a grand total of 92 million dollars from equalization during the period of 1957-1964 and should have received equalization for longer but the federal government changed the rules to exclude Alberta from receiving more money (simlarily the rules were changed in the mid 80's to prevent Ontario from receiving equalization). If Nova Scotia wants the same 8 years of equalization Alberta had to develop it's O&G resources, then considering Sable Island gas was exported to New England starting in 2000, Nova Scotia should be cut off equalization at the end of 2007. But of course you don't really want Alberta's deal, it just sounds good to say it.
haha 92 million dollars is seriously chump change. and giving alberta this money was wrong in the first place. two wrongs don't make a right.

btw - which other province has the federal government allowed to default on loans?

none :yuck:

[Migs]

:D Easier said than done.


The world economy is surging to record heights, not the economies of Saskatchewan and the Atlantic provinces..

It's not as if an effort to improve things isn't being made.
Wanna bet?? The Saskatchewan economy hasn't been this hot for decades yet we still have a pathetic little weasel of a Premier that wants handouts. Nothing like sticking both of your hands out..........:yuck:

[Migs]

Well lets just do what we always do, and reward them for lying. :yes:
If I had a nickel for everything that Calvert promised us that he didn't come through with as premier, then id be a rich man.
Whooptee-freakin do......a politician didn't live up to a promise. Maybe I should sue Calvert for all the freakin lies he's told us since he became Premier. He's an embarrasment to this province and any man who would be sitting on an economy like the one we are enjoying right now would not whine bitch moan and complain like a dumped school girl on the playground.

[Dalreg]

Wanna bet?? The Saskatchewan economy hasn't been this hot for decades yet we still have a pathetic little weasel of a Premier that wants handouts. Nothing like sticking both of your hands out..........:yuck:

He isn't after handouts. He is asking for what the dumb as conservatives PROMISED. Big difference.

As for the NDP at least they haven't pulled a Devine and run up a HUGE bill, which we are STILL paying for.

[shreddog]

No one in Alberta likes to mention that for a time in the 50s and 60s when it was not a wealthy province it received equalization payments and the full revenues from its developing resource industries.
Since you seem to have selective memory, don't forget that for the first 25 years of its existance as a province, Alberta got to keep ZERO of all resource revenues due to the deal that premiers of Ontario, Quebec, Nova Scotia and New Brunswick negotiated with the Federal government.

Unlike all other provinces at the time, when Alberta and Saskatchewan were formed in 1905, they were treated as second class provinces and not given control of their natural resources - contrary to the BNA - because the premiers of the other 4 big provinces of Canada felt that they needed it.

[The Kid]

Wanna bet?? The Saskatchewan economy hasn't been this hot for decades yet we still have a pathetic little weasel of a Premier that wants handouts. Nothing like sticking both of your hands out..........:yuck:

I applaud the fact that someone from Sask is actually bold enough to call it the way it really is. :tup:

[ReginaGuy]

I applaud the fact that someone from Sask is actually bold enough to call it the way it really is. :tup:

Actually, that seems to be how the majority of us feel these days.:) Polls show that the NDP are almost certainly going to lose the next election

[big W]

Intresting stuff. Those who want to get rd of equalization need to review our constitution as equalization is part of it. SO it will always be there. The problem is actually the way we have allowed our politicians over time to manipulate who pays for what and therefore we have a lack of accountability. The feds do not do some things that are federal jurisdiction and the provinces whine to the feds for things in provincial jurisdiction. Then everyone bitches about something and thats all 10 provinces. I think this country needs a kick in the ass and by that I mean all 10 Premiers and Harper need to change what they fund and don't as per the consitution. Example of this, look at that last budget money transfers for social programs, health care and education. Last I checked those were provincial matters. While Alberta has a budget to twin and upgrade the highways from the BC, NWT borders to the US borders, last I checked these highways are federal jurisdiction.

[skyscraper_1]

They just have to leave Canada if they are not happy.

Bunch of crying babies...

Tssssssssssssss.

Why would Quebec whine? Look at its equalization payments.

2006-07...........5,539million
2007-08..........7,160million
2008-09...........7,622million

Now NFLD

2006-07 632million
2007-08 477million
2008-09 197million

NS
2006-07 1,386million
2007-08 1,308million
2008-09 1,294million

I wish our equalization would fall faster...silly provincial government. I swear, sometimes i don't think Rodney knows whether he is coming or going.

[someone123]

Unlike all other provinces at the time, when Alberta and Saskatchewan were formed in 1905, they were treated as second class provinces and not given control of their natural resources

That was land that was previously more or less uninhabited that the rest of the country paid to explore, defend, and develop. Why would the Eastern provinces pay to do that and then hand over control of everything to whichever settlers decided to move out there, all of whom were either foreigners or themselves from Ontario, Quebec, or the Maritimes?

[skyscraper_1]

Wow, not many provinces would ask to be treated with the same "love" as Alberta has been treated with by the Feds. FYI - Albertans received a grand total of 92 million dollars from equalization during the period of 1957-1964 and should have received equalization for longer but the federal government changed the rules to exclude Alberta from receiving more money (simlarily the rules were changed in the mid 80's to prevent Ontario from receiving equalization). If Nova Scotia wants the same 8 years of equalization Alberta had to develop it's O&G resources, then considering Sable Island gas was exported to New England starting in 2000, Nova Scotia should be cut off equalization at the end of 2007. But of course you don't really want Alberta's deal, it just sounds good to say it.Alberta's oil industry started in 1947 and there is a LOT more oil and gas in Alberta.

[skyscraper_1]

Since you seem to have selective memory, don't forget that for the first 25 years of its existance as a province, Alberta got to keep ZERO of all resource revenues due to the deal that premiers of Ontario, Quebec, Nova Scotia and New Brunswick negotiated with the Federal government.

Unlike all other provinces at the time, when Alberta and Saskatchewan were formed in 1905, they were treated as second class provinces and not given control of their natural resources - contrary to the BNA - because the premiers of the other 4 big provinces of Canada felt that they needed it.

I am sorry, but the Maritime provinces hardly had a 'charmed' existence early in this century either. Back then the Prairies and the maritimes were really in the same boat(or wagon)

[Migs]

He isn't after handouts. He is asking for what the dumb as conservatives PROMISED. Big difference.

As for the NDP at least they haven't pulled a Devine and run up a HUGE bill, which we are STILL paying for.
You need to ask yourself if your a Saskatchewanian first or a Canadian first??? The equalization formula is there so all Canadians can enjoy prosperity. For many years we received money from the federal govt because our economy was struggling and now that we are enjoying the biggest boom in decades we do not need these handouts from the govt any longer. How hard is that for people to understand??? Instead of whining like a dumb little bitch, Calvert should be taking the bull by the horns and and build on the momentum of the current boom and he'll get his 800mil and more doing it the old fashioned way....earning it. Little does he realize that he is not actiing like a true leader by taking the feds to court and I predict the backlash is going to be huge cause the majority of us aren't dumb enough to be fooled by him (but I guess its quite obvious that some are.)

That said, I am so sick and tired of reading people complain because Harper didn't keep an election promise. whoopteefreakindo. Name one elected leader (Calvert included) that has not broken an election promise.....sorry but you can't and everytime I hear Calvert say the we were betrayed I honestly feel like slapping him around to knock some sense into him. (hypothetically of course).

[psych1]

Start developing cities that actually add value. Start innovating ways to make money and manufacture import replacements for goods and services.

Stop standing on your hands as resources fly out of the province. Ottawa is not going to come to the rescue so you might as well start taking action.

That's the plan and that's why they are fighting to keep one off resource revenue. I think the point being missed by many is that the larger issue is the Conservatives were elected with a large number of seats in Saskatchewan gained under false pretenses. Whether the exclusion of non-renewables is fair or not, that is what they promised. They had plenty of time to analyze the situation before making that promise and if they did not understand the implications they should not have made it. As it stands, many in Sask probably voted for them because they were offering it and they have some obligation to fullfill that promise.

[psych1]

You need to ask yourself if your a Saskatchewanian first or a Canadian first??? The equalization formula is there so all Canadians can enjoy prosperity. For many years we received money from the federal govt because our economy was struggling and now that we are enjoying the biggest boom in decades we do not need these handouts from the govt any longer. How hard is that for people to understand??? Instead of whining like a dumb little bitch, Calvert should be taking the bull by the horns and and build on the momentum of the current boom and he'll get his 800mil and more doing it the old fashioned way....earning it. Little does he realize that he is not actiing like a true leader by taking the feds to court and I predict the backlash is going to be huge cause the majority of us aren't dumb enough to be fooled by him (but I guess its quite obvious that some are.)

That said, I am so sick and tired of reading people complain because Harper didn't keep an election promise. whoopteefreakindo. Name one elected leader (Calvert included) that has not broken an election promise.....sorry but you can't and everytime I hear Calvert say the we were betrayed I honestly feel like slapping him around to knock some sense into him. (hypothetically of course).

And perhaps we should start holding them to it so they would stop. I'm sure Mr. Calvert is trembling. BTW, after all your attacks on Quimby for his personal diatribes against your mayor in the Regina forum, what the hell is this?

[swilley]

And perhaps we should start holding them to it so they would stop. I'm sure Mr. Calvert is trembling. BTW, after all your attacks on Quimby for his personal diatribes against your mayor in the Regina forum, what the hell is this?


What you should have said was, His Royal Majesty, King, and 'Peoples Mayor', - Pat Fiacco.

[The Kid]

That's the plan and that's why they are fighting to keep one off resource revenue. I think the point being missed by many is that the larger issue is the Conservatives were elected with a large number of seats in Saskatchewan gained under false pretenses. Whether the exclusion of non-renewables is fair or not, that is what they promised. They had plenty of time to analyze the situation before making that promise and if they did not understand the implications they should not have made it. As it stands, many in Sask probably voted for them because they were offering it and they have some obligation to fullfill that promise.

Ha Ha Ha! Thanks for the laugh. You actually expect a politician or ANY political party to fullfill their promises. What planet are you living on?

Do you follow Canadian politics at all. Every party of every stripe has lied and broken promises. That's what elections are for. Load the electorate with a bunch of promises and then once in power, decide which ones you really want to keep and which ones you never had any intentions of keeping in the first place.

I thought the federal Libs promised to scrap the GST. Guess what, they lied! And guess what, Canadians returned them to power for several additional mandates after that.

[psych1]

Ha Ha Ha! Thanks for the laugh. You actually expect a politician or ANY political party to fullfill their promises. What planet are you living on?

Do you follow Canadian politics at all. Every party of every stripe has lied and broken promises. That's what elections are for. Load the electorate with a bunch of promises and then once in power, decide which ones you really want to keep and which ones you never had any intentions of keeping in the first place.

I thought the federal Libs promised to scrap the GST. Guess what, they lied! And guess what, Canadians returned them to power for several additional mandates after that.


Yes, I do follow Canadian politcs and I do reside on planet Earth. Thanks for asking. What I was saying, is that if there is any hope of change it depends on calling politicians to account. My argument that this is necessary, is not diminished by pointing out that it doesn't happen right now. BTW: being a cynical smartass isn't a sign of intelligence or of superiority and mockery is not debate.

[Dalreg]

You need to ask yourself if your a Saskatchewanian first or a Canadian first??? The equalization formula is there so all Canadians can enjoy prosperity. For many years we received money from the federal govt because our economy was struggling and now that we are enjoying the biggest boom in decades we do not need these handouts from the govt any longer. How hard is that for people to understand??? Instead of whining like a dumb little bitch, Calvert should be taking the bull by the horns and and build on the momentum of the current boom and he'll get his 800mil and more doing it the old fashioned way....earning it. Little does he realize that he is not actiing like a true leader by taking the feds to court and I predict the backlash is going to be huge cause the majority of us aren't dumb enough to be fooled by him (but I guess its quite obvious that some are.)

That said, I am so sick and tired of reading people complain because Harper didn't keep an election promise. whoopteefreakindo. Name one elected leader (Calvert included) that has not broken an election promise.....sorry but you can't and everytime I hear Calvert say the we were betrayed I honestly feel like slapping him around to knock some sense into him. (hypothetically of course).

Now that we have established your PRO-NDP stance, If you don't like Calvert or the NDP you are free to vote against them in the next election. For now they are the government and I support them 100% in their actions.

Maybe if more leaders had balls like Calvert this country wouldn't be so fucked up when it comes to government. But don't worry your conservatives will make things all better if and when then come to power in Saskatchewan.

As for promises made and kept, yep most people can't keep them including me. Sayiing that you, I or any politician SHOULD be held responsible.

Don't open your mouth if you can't follow through with your statement!

[CCF]

Agreed.

It's actually sad that the guy who is representing us the most in Ottawa is our premier. What exactly have our 12 Conservative MPs done for us?

[Migs]

And perhaps we should start holding them to it so they would stop. I'm sure Mr. Calvert is trembling. BTW, after all your attacks on Quimby for his personal diatribes against your mayor in the Regina forum, what the hell is this?
Actually its a HUGE difference. I mention my dislike for Calvert in few post in this thread. Quimby posts his dislike for Fiacco in every single topic in every single thread day after day, month after month. I have no problem whatsoever with the fact that some don't like Fiacco, it just becomes monotonous when you hear it on a daily basis.

[Migs]

Now that we have established your PRO-NDP stance, If you don't like Calvert or the NDP you are free to vote against them in the next election. For now they are the government and I support them 100% in their actions.

Maybe if more leaders had balls like Calvert this country wouldn't be so fucked up when it comes to government. But don't worry your conservatives will make things all better if and when then come to power in Saskatchewan.

As for promises made and kept, yep most people can't keep them including me. Sayiing that you, I or any politician SHOULD be held responsible.

Don't open your mouth if you can't follow through with your statement!
Give me a break. Calvert doesn't have balls, he's just simply fighting for his political life...wake up and see the forest for the trees. Its funny that not a word was mentioned about sueing before there was an election looming and after it was realized he was 25 points behind the Sask party in the polls. Also, why didn't Calvert take the feds to court way back when the Libs signed the Atlantic accord with the maritime provinces???

[Migs]

sorry double post

[The Kid]

Yes, I do follow Canadian politcs and I do reside on planet Earth. Thanks for asking. What I was saying, is that if there is any hope of change it depends on calling politicians to account. My argument that this is necessary, is not diminished by pointing out that it doesn't happen right now. BTW: being a cynical smartass isn't a sign of intelligence or of superiority and mockery is not debate.

Who was trying to be a smartass?? If you post something as ridiculous along the lines of "a politician has made a promise and is therefore obligated to follow through", then I assume you are living somewhere else (perhaps on another planet), because if you've been living in Canada you wouldn't be surprised that the majority of politicians lie and break promises on a daily basis.

And hold them to account? That was my point. Canadians never hold their politicians to account and don't hold your breath that they will in the future. The Federal Liberals were caught in one of the worst criminal acts in politics in recent history, Adscam, and yet 2 years later they are back leading in the polls. Accountability......don't make me laugh.

[shreddog]

Unlike all other provinces at the time, when Alberta and Saskatchewan were formed in 1905, they were treated as second class provinces and not given control of their natural resources

That was land that was previously more or less uninhabited that the rest of the country paid to explore, defend, and develop. Why would the Eastern provinces pay to do that and then hand over control of everything to whichever settlers decided to move out there, all of whom were either foreigners or themselves from Ontario, Quebec, or the Maritimes?

Someone, most times you post intelligently, but this is priceless.

First off, Rupert's Land was bought by the Federal gov't for $ 1.5 M, not any fucking Eastern provinces. The Ferderal government then turned around and sold the land to the CP, other rail lines, development companies, individuals etc AT MASSIVE FUCKING PROFIT!! Ergo, there was no need to screw the west - I guess it was just fun.

Secondly, while the Federal government did provide some services like policing, it also collected taxes (like excise) and imposed punishing tariffs that forced western farmers and businesses to buy from inefficent manufacturers as far away as NS.

Also, note again that the BNA clearly spelled out the rights and privaliges of each province in Canada - you know the rights granted Manitoba in 1870, 25 years earlier - that were denied Alberta and Saskatchewan due to the desires of the premiers of Ont, Que, NB and NS.

Learn some history next time.

But then again, on second thought, maybe what you're saying makes sense.

If the eastern provinces did pay for services in Alberta in 1905, maybe Alberta shouldn't have keep it resource revenues. Of course when we bring that into the current situation where Alberta gives 1 Billion dollars every year to Nova Scotia, one could then make the same arguement that why should the provinces of Ontario and Alberta allow NS to keep its royalty rights. But of course you wouldn't push for that.

[e909]

This thread has been quite the history lesson. Constitutionally, why were the "eastern" provinces allowed to fuck Alberta over?

[skyscraper_1]

Secondly, while the Federal government did provide some services like policing, it also collected taxes (like excise) and imposed punishing tariffs that forced western farmers and businesses to buy from inefficent manufacturers as far away as NS.

What tariffs are you referring too? I know NS also faced punishing freight rates in the 1910's onward that hurt business badly. If you are referring to the Nation Policy. It also damaged the Maritime economy severely as well. Most of the colonial/provincial revenue was generated through trade, but after confederation it was collected by the federal government and then sent back.(of course making the region look like they are always looking to the feds for money.) Even still the region could benefit from trade, but with the high tariffs of the national policy trade with the outside world collapsed. We did eventually recover and for a brief time(about 20 years) the Maritimes prospered greatly in the new industrial age.

In 1890, the Maritimes with 1/5th of the population had 1/3rd the industrial capacity, 2/3rds of Canadian steel manufacturing, the largest and most progressive textile factory, Of the 50 Banks in Canada,,,45 of them were Maritime(two survive to this day: Royal and Scotia). Walk though any old town in the maritimes and you will see the grand old homes, a sign of former wealth.

By 1920, manufacturing had collapsed and the banks were gone. What went wrong? During the time of prosperously maritimers of all walks saved a lot of money and saved it in the regions banks. However, the bank managers were not really interested in loaning it out here, they wanted it for expansion westward and used the maritimes as a cash cow. The ratio of deposits to loans at the Scotia bank for example was 0.40, meaning that for every dollar coming in 40 cents stayed in the region and 60 cents were shipped out. This would be a criminal act today, we are talking about hundreds of millions of private dollars gone. This occurred while the economy was still booming, but when Joe factory owner went to the bank to get his yearly loan he would be denied even if his company was doing fine. Maritime manufactures eventually went out of business or could not a get a loan for upgrades, eventually becoming uncompetitive and going out of business. The region was starved of its capital.

Any manufacture that survived the capital crunch had to face another reality, Rail became the life line of the new industrial economy and it was intended to be a public works like a highway is today. Otherwise, it doesn't take a genius to figure out that Maritime manufacturers would have a competitive disadvantage. However, in 1918 a new deal would be worked out that had manufacturers pay by the mile. Rates shot up 140-240% in the region. It was another nail in the coffin so to speak.

Ok, sorry for the mad ramble. I took a third year economics class about the Atlantic economy and the details of this were bashed into our heads repeatedly :D. My point is that in the past, both the prairies and maritimes had to struggle with a government heavily focused on central Canada and its interests with little regard for the rest of the country. The differences are Alberta and parts of Saskatchewan are lucky enough to have a massive reserve of oil & gas sitting under them the whole time. Which gives the region a lot of sway in the country now. This is great, but it doesn't mean that our place in Canada was all that different 50 or 60 years ago. Just look at funds allotted for post war reconstruction: 80% went to Ontario and Quebec, 15% to British Colombia and 5% to the SIX prairie and maritime provinces.


If the eastern provinces did pay for services in Alberta in 1905, maybe Alberta shouldn't have keep it resource revenues. Of course when we bring that into the current situation where Alberta gives 1 Billion dollars every year to Nova Scotia, one could then make the same arguement that why should the provinces of Ontario and Alberta allow NS to keep its royalty rights. But of course you wouldn't push for that.The gas royalties in Nova Scotia at least are about 300million-400million. Not enough to completely wipe off equalization yet and maybe never and even if Ottawa clawed back 100% in lost equalization I still think it is better the fat equalization cheque.However an agreement was signed and the government of Canada should honor it.

[skyscraper_1]

This thread has been quite the history lesson. Constitutionally, why were the "eastern" provinces allowed to fuck Alberta over? There is no 'fuck' Alberta clause, but written into the constitution there is a passage.

"Parliament and the government of Canada are committed to the principle of making equalization payments to ensure that provincial governments have sufficient revenues to provide reasonably comparable levels of public services at reasonably comparable levels of taxation." (Subsection 36(2) of the Constitution Act, 1982)

And there are measures in place that protect both the "have's" and the "have nots".

A Renewed and Strengthened Equalization Program

* Budget 2007 introduces a new program legislated through 2013-14 to provide long-term predictability for provinces. The new program is based on the recommendations made by the Expert Panel on Equalization and Territorial Formula Financing (O’Brien Report).

o Equalization payments will be determined using a 10-province standard.

o 50% of natural resource revenues will be excluded in determining each province’s fiscal capacity and the standard.

o The new Equalization program will include a fiscal capacity cap to ensure that Equalization payments do not raise a province’s total per capita fiscal capacity above that of any non-receiving province.

o Provincial fiscal capacity will be measured using five tax bases – personal income tax, business income tax, consumption tax, property tax and natural resources.

o To ensure stability and predictability, Equalization payments will be made based on a single estimate system. Payments will be based on a three-year weighted moving average of provincial fiscal capacity lagged two years. Payments will be determined in advance of the year and will not be subject to revision.

It should be known that it is not just an Atlantic thing, for example by 2008/09, Manitoba will receive an equalization payment $200 million greater then Nova Scotia, Newfoundland and Prince Edward Island combined. Not to pick on Manitoba here, it is just to point out that the region a province belongs to does not matter, it is the ability of the province to generate funds to pay for provincial responsibilities.

[someone123]

You are making all kinds of assumptions that hold today but did not one hundred or more years ago.

For example, there is this:

First off, Rupert's Land was bought by the Federal gov't for $ 1.5 M, not any fucking Eastern provinces.

Canada back then was nothing more than what today are considered "Eastern" provinces. There's really no distinction to be made.

Ergo, there was no need to screw the west - I guess it was just fun.

What "West"? Land cannot be "screwed", only people, and there were hardly any people in the West back then. You make it sound like Albertans are descendants of some kind of disenfranchised ethnic group, which is not the case for the vast majority.

Secondly, while the Federal government did provide some services like policing, it also collected taxes (like excise) and imposed punishing tariffs that forced western farmers and businesses to buy from inefficent manufacturers as far away as NS.

That is true, although the "as far away as NS" was obviously added more for effect than anything else. Maritimers also paid out what were effectively heavy subsidies to Ontario and Quebec industries probably just as significant as transfer payments are today. The economic effects were also more severe because the Maritimes had already developed an economy geared towards open trade with the US, Europe, the Caribbean, etc. The West may have been stunted but that is quite different.

[e909]

There is no 'fuck' Alberta clause, but written into the constitution there is a passage.

"Parliament and the government of Canada are committed to the principle of making equalization payments to ensure that provincial governments have sufficient revenues to provide reasonably comparable levels of public services at reasonably comparable levels of taxation." (Subsection 36(2) of the Constitution Act, 1982)
I can understand why the federal government is obligated to the equalization program, but why during the first 25 years of Alberta, constitutionally, were our resource funds withheld?

[malek]

First off, Rupert's Land was bought by the Federal gov't for $ 1.5 M, not any fucking Eastern provinces.

wow man, you are really good! Where did this federal govt you speak of came from ? Mars? Neptune? Who formed that Federal govt and from whom did it get its resources? from the Persians or the original 4 provinces? :rolleyes:

btw, I would like to use this occasion and this public tribune to thank you for those tax cuts that we, and 5 other provinces, will get next January. It will pay for my vacations next year!

p.s.: work harder

p.p.s: god bless oil

[skyscraper_1]

I can understand why the federal government is obligated to the equalization program, but why during the first 25 years of Alberta, constitutionally, were our resource funds withheld?I really do not think any province had the ability to collect resource funds during the first half of this century. Provincial governments in general had little taxation power because there responsibilities(health, education, welfare) were quite small, only during the great depression onward did these government responsibilities grow in cost . I could be wrong however about resource funds however.

[e909]

wow man, you are really good! Where did this federal govt you speak of came from ? Mars? Neptune? Who formed that Federal govt and from whom did it get its resources? from the Persians or the original 4 provinces? :rolleyes:

btw, I would like to use this occasion and this public tribune to thank you for those tax cuts that we, and 5 other provinces, will get next January. It will pay for my vacations next year!

p.s.: work harder

p.p.s: god bless oil

Too bad nobody in Quebec actually has a job to benefit from tax cuts.

[malek]

yeah too bad :(