[HumanMachinery]

Those of you familiar with my hometown will know that it is not the most aesthetically pleasing or inhabitable part of the world. Detroit is one of the most blighted and decrepit cities in North America, a joy to both urban photographers and drug dealers. It was not always this way though.

Among the many bland factories and warehouses (hey, everyone's gotta pay the bills somehow) there stand many beautiful mansions, high rises, and institutional buildings from the late 19th and early 20th century. Some of them are in better shape than others.

While a few buildings have been restored and refurbished (like the Guardian), many have languished in disuse. This is intended to be the first in a series of threads dedicated to the blight and decay of Detroit's once grand structures.

-----------------------------------

Today's subject is the Michigan Central Depot, kids, or "why every other major city east of the Mississippi has refurbished its train station, while Detroit's is a condemned shell."

The Michigan Central Depot was called into service before it was finished, when the old Michigan Central Station burned on December 26, 1913. Designed by noted hotel architects Warren & Wetmore and engineers Reed and Stem, the MCD was an exceptionally beautiful building. The style of choice was beaux-arts neoclassical. Flanking massive arched windows were pairs of Corinthian columns, a hallmark of the style. The rooms were modeled after an ancient Roman bathhouse. The massive waiting room was imposing and impressive in particular, with its marble walls and vaulted ceiling.

http://www.rushmessageboard.com/cpmb/uploads/post-111-1168132298.jpg

Smaller rooms for women and men were placed at either end of the waiting room as were a cafe and restaurant. Deeper into the station was a long hall, outfitted with paired Doric columns. This area housed the ticket office and a shopping arcade. Beyond them was a simple concourse, where passengers departed for their trains. The room’s bare brick construction offered a less sophisticated air than the rest of the building, though it featured a massive copper skylight. From the concourse one passed through a similarly styled ramp down into a long tunnel to the train platforms.

http://www.rushmessageboard.com/cpmb/uploads/post-111-1168131948.jpg

The station's most distinctive architectural feature was the tower rising above the station proper. Though rumored as a possible hotel, it never housed anything more majestic than offices. The lower floors had marble lined corridors while the upper floors were bare. The top floor was never finished, its walls never saw a layer of plaster. This mass was joined to the station with a band or pilasters running around the upper floors. Beneath the 18 main floors, an extensive basement level provided facilities for baggage and mail.

http://www.rushmessageboard.com/cpmb/uploads/post-111-1168134192.jpg

When the station first opened automobiles were still not common. Therefore the station was not, nor would ever be, given decent parking facilities. The intended main entrance was not the grand northern entrance dominated with the three huge arches, but rather the east entrance. This was made so by the presence of a streetcar terminal. Because of the station's distance from downtown it was thought that most passengers would arrive via streetcar or interurban rail. They would exit the streetcar at the terminal and then enter the station through the east entrance. With the Depression came the end of the interurban service and by 1938 the street cars were gone. The station was suddenly isolated.

http://www.rushmessageboard.com/cpmb/uploads/post-111-1168133995.jpg

The station's isolation had not been a great concern in 1913. It was believed that the presence of a large station would cause the business district to spread towards the area. This had been the case with the Pennsylvania Station in New York. The slum in which it had been built quickly transformed into one of the city's finest retail addresses. Unfortunately, such developments never took place for the MCD. During the mid twenties, Henry Ford purchased land and planned to build a large business center. However land values, the General Moters/Fisher Building complex, and the Great Depression put an end to these plans.

The station thrived prior to the Second World War. During the conflict, rails were crowded with military traffic and the MCD saw many tearful good-byes as soldiers departed for the front. After the war’s end though, the slow decline began.

Automobiles gradually took over the Detroit-Chicago route. The loss of passenger traffic become so bad that by 1956 an attempt was made to sell the station for $5,000,000. There were no buyers. Profits continued to decline and by 1963 another attempt was made to sell the station, but there were still no takers. The station's decline was made painfully obvious in 1967 when the main waiting room and park entrance were closed due to declining passenger traffic. The arcade shops and restaurant closed from lack of business. Gradually the building deteriorated.

http://www.rushmessageboard.com/cpmb/uploads/post-111-1168132594.jpg

In 1971 Amtrak took over the nations passenger service. Once again things started to look bright for the station. In 1975 the main entrance and waiting room were reopened, and in 1978 $1,250,000 worth of renovations begin. These included new track, bus facilities, and cleaning. The offices were used by Conrail.

It didn’t last. In 1984 the station was sold for a transportation center that never materialized, and then passenger traffic declined so severely that the decision was made to close the station. On January 5, 1988 the last train departed. The building was permanently closed later that day.

http://www.rushmessageboard.com/cpmb/uploads/post-111-1168132208.jpg

Abanded throughout the 1990's, the station has suffered much vandalism. Its plaster and brass details were gutted and sold by scavengers. There is currently discussion of it being renovated as the new Detroit Police headquarters, or possibly a replacemnt for the old and obsolete federal Customs House.


http://www.forgottendetroit.com/mcs/index.html

http://members.tripod.com/~Rappollo/mcs.html

[HumanMachinery]

To further edify and horrify readers, I've assembled the following montage:

http://www.rushmessageboard.com/cpmb/uploads/post-333-1168135547.jpg

Michigan Central Depot in 1913

http://www.rushmessageboard.com/cpmb/uploads/post-333-1168135576.jpg

The station as it appears today.

http://www.rushmessageboard.com/cpmb/uploads/post-333-1168135676.jpg

The main waiting room then...

http://www.rushmessageboard.com/cpmb/uploads/post-333-1168135721.jpg

And now. If somebody were to create a film in which ghosts wait in purgatory for trains that never come, they won't have to build a set.

http://www.rushmessageboard.com/cpmb/uploads/post-333-1168135614.jpg

The concourse leading to the trains, featuring a massive skylight.

http://www.rushmessageboard.com/cpmb/uploads/post-333-1168135633.jpg

The giant copper-framed skylights were stolen by theives over the years.

http://www.rushmessageboard.com/cpmb/uploads/post-333-1168135755.jpg

The empty ticket booths

http://www.rushmessageboard.com/cpmb/uploads/post-333-1168135822.jpg

All aboard on Track 6 7/8 for the express to oblivion.


The following link contains documentary footage from 1987, when the station was still salvagable:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sbtyUsnrY2I

[BnaBreaker]

That's very depressing to see. Are there any realistic hopes of this thing ever being revitalized?

[Derek]

So much potential!

[HumanMachinery]

It would cost several million, and investors are currently leaving Detroit. We're in a "will the last person please turn out the light" scenario. Comerica Bank recently moved to Dallas, because its shareholders were upset that the company kept pouring money into a dying city. They insisted the business either leave, or face a hostile takeover.

Every day it seems I read about a factory closing, downsizing, or a corporate headquarters leaving Detroit. Detroit never moved beyond its roots as an industrial city, and those jobs are never coming back to the United States.

[mhays]

Remarkable.

[mhays]

Several million? It would take a couple hundred million to make that place usable including the tower. I'm being imprecise but it's the right magnitude.

Ruins are fascinating. At the same time, they make me wonder what a couple decades of massive in-migration could do.

[James Bond Agent 007]

Wow, great pics and story! Thanks.

[LMich]

It would cost several million, and investors are currently leaving Detroit. We're in a "will the last person please turn out the light scenario." Comerica Bank recently moved to Dallas, because its shareholders were upset that the company kept pouring money into a dying city. They insisted the business either leave, or face a hostile takeover.

Every day it seems I read about a factory closing, downsizing, or a corporate headquarters leaving Detroit. Detroit never moved beyond its roots as an industrial city, and those jobs are never coming back to the United States.

It's not that dark, my friend. The central city (inner 40-square miles, or so) is seeing more reinvestment than any time in recent history. The outer neighborhoods, no doubt, will continue (and are) to languish, but investors are hardly leaving the city (in proportion to those being gained). I'd wish you do a thread on the Book-Cadillac, Fort Shelby or a number of other historic dinosaurs left for dead that no one ever thought would be renovated, but that are now well on their way to be reopened. Selling $1 million condos in the Book-Cadillac, sight unseen, is hardly a sign of a dying central city. One needs to look no further than a number of threads in the My City Photos forum, and general development forum to see that the central city is not only not dying, but thriving.

As for Michigan Central Station, I expect it to sit vacant for the forseeable future for the simple fact that there is no need for 500,000 square feet of ANYTHING in the city, right now.

The figures to bring this building back into usage (depending on the usage) range from $100 million to $300 million. Disconnected from downtown, this renovation has a number of other factors working against it.

[Nunavuter]

That YouTube vid you linked made me rather sad, HM.

From the still images, I had figured the depot had been a ruin for ages. It was still beautiful in 1987.

[HumanMachinery]

I've heard this argument before. High priced apartments and office space have been selling on Woodward and Jefferson for the last decade now, but I can't see where the revenue is coming from to sustain this sort of realestate market. The people moving into those apartments are mostly young and affluent too, which makes me wonder where the money is coming from. Detroit is not a hub for technology or telecommunications. The major businesses downtown right now are the hospitals, the university, and Compuware. That's not enough to buoy a city formerly home to 2 million people, which continues to shrink. Mike Illitch and Bill Davidson can't do this alone.

And then there is the matter of independent local businesses the "Buy Black Week." :rolleyes:

[LMich]

I'm not talking about the greater city, which no one can argue is not bleeding residents, rather pointing out that the picture isn't hardly as dark as you paint it. The crime rate in many neighborhoods is out of control (and has been for decades), finding the owners and demolishing obsolete properties isn't moving fast enough, and many city services leave a lot to be desired to say the least, but Detroit is actually much healtheir, in many regards, than it was in the 80's and 90's when both the city and the central city were freefalling. At the moment, the city has to learn how to shrink as it will continue to bleed its population in its outer-city neighborhoods regardless of what measurable improvements are made.

It's not about who can paint the city in the best light or the worst light, but painting the city as honestly as one can, and realizing that the picture is significantly complicated than you want to paint it. Anything less isn't doing the urban issues of the city justice. There are many dark spots in the region, and a number of bright spots that one couldn't have even imagined 10 years ago. To say that Detroit is essentially done for is about as honest as saying that it's turned the corner, or out of the woods.

http://forum.skyscraperpage.com/showthread.php?t=102019&page=16

http://forum.skyscraperpage.com/showthread.php?t=132914

http://forum.skyscraperpage.com/showthread.php?t=132918

BTW, this isn't the first subject on the Michigan Central Station on this forum, or about the other notable ruins of the city.

[mello]

So eventually what will happen to all that land of the "outer neighborhoods" that are "bleeding out" population. Will it be reclaimed as farmland or just sit there in ruin? I mean once all the people are gone will it just be a total waistland of several square miles?

This is simply fascinating.... Hey I got an idea, why not turn it into a giant wind energy farm... Just put up a shit load of Turbines and let em rip!!!! Whatdaya think LMICH, good idea...

[LMich]

Mello,

This discussion that was had not too long ago on this subject may interest you:

http://forum.skyscraperpage.com/showthread.php?t=127560&highlight=Detroit

The city currently doesn't have any plan for its shrinking population, something it needs badly. It needs to put together a plan to effectively shrink.

BTW, I should have better explained, the neighborhoods that have the most missing, physically, are actually the inner-city and neighborhoods right outside the old boundary of the city, for the most part with a few exceptions (i.e. parts of the Far Eastside). I don't expect the majority of the fringe outer-city neighborhoods to ever experience the level of abandoning and clearance that was experienced in the inner city.

Also, if you want to see a city that is learning how to shrink, check out Youngstown, Ohio:

Youngstown, Ohio, Tries To 'Shrink' Smartly (http://www.planetizen.com/node/24258)

Many cities in similar situations (such as Detroit) should take serious note.

[vertex]

This thread reminds me a lot of the "Fabulous Ruins of Detroit (http://www.detroityes.com/home.htm)" website.

[LMich]

That's where he most likely got the idea for the title. Most Michigan urban enthusiast know about the site.

BTW, the history of Michigan Central Station and Buffalo Central Station mirror each other pretty well, with the difference being that Buffalo Central Station is owned by a non-profit preservation group, and Michigan Central Station is owned by a billionaire who doesn't seem to really care what happens to the property. lol They are similar, though, in that they are both located outside the central business district.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/b/ba/Buffalo_Central_Terminal_2.jpg/800px-Buffalo_Central_Terminal_2.jpg

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/5/55/Buffalo_Central_Terminal_concourse_1.jpg/400px-Buffalo_Central_Terminal_concourse_1.jpg

MCS

http://www.aerialpics.com/M/centralstationlink.jpg

Buffalo is fortunate to have a preservation group looking after its terminal, though. It looks like they've had success in mothballing the actual hall.

[vertex]

Oh, here we go, this is the site I was thinking of, Forgotten Detroit (http://www.forgottendetroit.com/mcs/photos.html). This is where he got at least some of the images from.

[pdxstreetcar]

Despite the shockingly decayed state of much of the city, Detroit truely has one of the finest collections of architecture in America.

[hudkina]

The reason Comerica is moving to Texas has to do with taxes, not the state of Detroit. They're still keeping a huge chunk of their workforce in Michigan, but moving the top brass to Dallas. Michigan couldn't have done anything to stop it because we favor a high quality of life over a tax system that overly favors big business.

[Evergrey]

The reason Comerica is moving to Texas has to do with taxes, not the state of Detroit. They're still keeping a huge chunk of their workforce in Michigan, but moving the top brass to Dallas. Michigan couldn't have done anything to stop it because we favor a high quality of life over a tax system that overly favors big business.

How is "negative economic growth" improving anybody's "quality of life"?

http://bea.gov/newsreleases/regional/gdp_state/2007/images/gsp0607.gif

[J. Will]

On the one hand it would be nice to see this place fully restored. But on the other hand, any major transit centre should be in a city's downtown. MCS has an awkward location working against it, so it's hard to say what should be done.

[ardecila]

That's true... but Detroit's current Amtrak station is also outside of the downtown, in New Center (which, admittedly, is kind of a smaller second downtown).

Any restoration of Michigan Central Station that includes train services will also have to include some alternate attractions, like a casino, mall, or restaurants, to be successful. The high-rise sitting above the station doesn't help, because there is very little demand in Detroit for the type of space the high-rise would provide.

Any restoration efforts for Detroit's OR Buffalo's train stations will need to incorporate some sort of creative re-use that draws people without relying on train service.

Also, the restoration of these stations will depend largely on the fate of our national passenger rail system. If high-speed rail is eventually implemented and Amtrak commits to a higher level of service, then I can easily see these abandoned terminals becoming regional destinations, despite their locations away from their downtowns. Nobody would seriously suggest building an airport downtown? Yet the airports continue to do well, because large numbers of people need to use them for transportation.

[lawsond]

think of it this way.
at least it's still THERE.
there's still a chance.
unlike penn station...may it rest in piece(s).

[Michi]

Wow! I don't even feel compelled to reply anymore. So, General Motors isn't considered one of downtown's major corporations? Moving on... :gaah:

[bcp]

casino?

[beanhead4529]

casino?

possibly a haunted house theme

[ATLonthebrain]

Wow, that highrise portion of the Buffalo Central Station looks a lot like a hotel I've stayed in a couple of times over in Frankfurt, the Lindner Main Plaza. Here's the link: http://www.lindner.de/de/MP/ Anyone agree? And, by the way, it's a fantastic hotel with great views of Central Frankfurt.

[LMich]

The idea of a casino has been tossed around. An idea of making it a logisitics/freight center has been tossed around. An idea of making it the city's convention center has been tossed around. Most recently, the horrible idea of making it the headquarters of the Detroit Police Department was seriously considered.

As was mentioned just a few posts back, whatever is ultimately happens in this economic environment will have to be a very creative reuse, because there just any conventional need for 500,000 square feet in the city, right now. I'm honestly stumped, myself.

[ginsan2]

So eventually what will happen to all that land of the "outer neighborhoods" that are "bleeding out" population. Will it be reclaimed as farmland or just sit there in ruin? I mean once all the people are gone will it just be a total waistland of several square miles?

We don't actually consider ourselves 'neighborhoods'. The majority of people living in Westland/Farmington Hills/Dearborn/Dearborn Heights grew up in Detroit int he 70's and said "Never, ever again" to crime and extremes of that decade.

To that extent, what little youth is left in southeast Michigan have no concept of being a part of Detroit. I used to find it offensive when out-of-state programs try to classify us as "Metro Detroit"... Because we're not. There's nothing to actually connect us to Detroit. No one goes there, certainly there's nothing to do there, and it's just kind of an outdated concept since local city governments became so much more powerful and real estate vastly expanded elsewhere.

I think that I've said this almost daily for the past 18 years, but I can't wait to get the hell out of this state. That's the general sentiment for everyone. It's very much a "last one turn the lights out" scenario, as someone above noted.

[LMich]

You echo the sentiments are far too many Southeast Michigan, and are you're part of the problem. Fortunately, people like you are becoming more and more an anamoly as much of the younger generation is much more receptive to the idea of a cohesive Southeast Michigan having had no memory of the riots and the like. You sound like a few in the younger generation that ate up everything you're intolerant parents fed you. Good luck with that, the area and state will be much, much better off without you. The most unfortunate part of it all is that you have absolutely no shame about what you said, and no qualms about it, and you're only 18. You don't have any real reason to harbor the same kind of grudges that those that actually went through the turbulent times have.

Above, everyone, is the quintessential example of why you see places like the abandoned MCS.

[ginsan2]

You echo the sentiments are far too many Southeast Michigan, and are you're part of the problem. Fortunately, people like you are becoming more and more an anamoly as much of the younger generation is much more receptive to the idea of a cohesive Southeast Michigan having had no memory of the riots and the like. You sound like a few in the younger generation that ate up everything you're intolerant parents fed you. Good luck with that, the area and state will be much, much better off without you. The most unfortunate part of it all is that you have absolutely no shame about what you said, and no qualms about it, and you're only 18. You don't have any real reason to harbor the same kind of grudges that those that actually went through the turbulent times have.

Above, everyone, is the quintessential example of why you see places like the abandoned MCS.

I'm actually 21 :)

And, no, I'm hardly the reason for the abandoned train station. To say such a thing speaks of such gross economic incompetence that I'd be deeply ashamed to have put it out. Technically, poor urban planning and the collapse of the national railroad system "derailed" MCS long before I was born, and certainly before you were born. It was complicated by yet another one of Congress' attempts to regulate the railroads in the 1980's, when there wasn't even a track being used through Detroit, and the industry collapsed.

Because I believe this is relevant to the discussion at hand... Why should I feel shame? Yes, I want to "get the hell out of here", but what's wrong with that? I have severe winter depression; the unending grayness drives me to thoughts of suicide, I hate battling ice, and on top of that? There's nothing to DO in the winter. I'm only one college student, and I'm certainly not going to save this state from what Henry Ford and his industry cronies have done to it.

The point, LMich, is that the world moved on. Fashion, technology and intellectual civilization thrived elsewhere and never found a home in Detroit's squalor. Why should I consign myself to impoverished surroundings? Is that really fair to ask a young person? Or any young people, when your own generation failed to make any difference? You are as culpable as I, if not more so for the expectations you excuse from yourself to me.

As a complete EDIT, I want to point out that for many people my age, leaving is also something we have to do if we want to find real jobs. I had to hunt six months to find a job that paid minimum wage (and at that time it was at the $5.15 level). It didn't even make my car payment. How on earth am I to not only fund law school, but actually graduate with interest-bearing debt in excess of $150,000 in a state that has no economy? It's a terrifying concept. Chicago, San Francisco (even NYC, if I was willing to make other sacrifices for a few years until the debt was paid off) have so much immediate demand for lawyers, accountants, engineers, etc. It's at the point where young professionals don't have a choice.

[LMich]

I'm actually 21 :)

And, no, I'm hardly the reason for the abandoned train station. To say such a thing speaks of such gross economic incompetence that I'd be deeply ashamed to have put it out. Technically, poor urban planning and the collapse of the national railroad system "derailed" MCS long before I was born, and certainly before you were born. It was complicated by yet another one of Congress' attempts to regulate the railroads in the 1980's, when there wasn't even a track being used through Detroit, and the industry collapsed.

Because I believe this is relevant to the discussion at hand... Why should I feel shame? Yes, I want to "get the hell out of here", but what's wrong with that? I have severe winter depression; the unending grayness drives me to thoughts of suicide, I hate battling ice, and on top of that? There's nothing to DO in the winter. I'm only one college student, and I'm certainly not going to save this state from what Henry Ford and his industry cronies have done to it.

The point, LMich, is that the world moved on. Fashion, technology and intellectual civilization thrived elsewhere and never found a home in Detroit's squalor. Why should I consign myself to impoverished surroundings? Is that really fair to ask a young person? Or any young people, when your own generation failed to make any difference? You are as culpable as I, if not more so for the expectations you excuse from yourself to me.

As a complete EDIT, I want to point out that for many people my age, leaving is also something we have to do if we want to find real jobs. I had to hunt six months to find a job that paid minimum wage (and at that time it was at the $5.15 level). It didn't even make my car payment. How on earth am I to not only fund law school, but actually graduate with interest-bearing debt in excess of $150,000 in a state that has no economy? It's a terrifying concept. Chicago, San Francisco (even NYC, if I was willing to make other sacrifices for a few years until the debt was paid off) have so much immediate demand for lawyers, accountants, engineers, etc. It's at the point where young professionals don't have a choice.

You should feel shame because you represent a particularly ugly and stereotypical segment of my generation, the completely self-absorbed "Me-First Generation". That is the "I want what I want, now" individual, the "God forbid I have to put in ANY work to get the community that I want to exist" individual, the "I won't tolerate one second of discomfort" individual.

All types like you do is complain, they never take responsibility for your own shortcomings, and then you take subsequently take it out of everyone else. Seriously, my generation needs to grow the f%ck up and stop this chronic whinning, and wondering where their mother is to pick up after them when they make a mess.

Through your personal ramblings, you do have moments of clarity. For many professions, the job market really is horrible in Michigan, but this whole talk of the city and state being irrelevant, and how you get terrible winter depression, ect... (always bringing it back to your own personal discomfort) keeps drawing me back to what the problem really is (i.e. not Michigan; you). I'm getting tired of these soft-skinned twenty-somethings thinking that everything that has gone wrong in their community is "someone else's" problem, and it seems to cross all kinds of cultural, class, ethnic, racial, ect. lines. You speak of not being part of Metro Detroit as if that's something to be proud of. It's not, it's and anti-social view strangling this state that should be shamed into extinction.

[ginsan2]

You should feel shame because you represent a particularly ugly and stereotypical segment of my generation, the completely self-absorbed "Me-First Generation". That is the "I want what I want, now" individual, the "God forbid I have to put in ANY work to get the community that I want to exist" individual, the "I won't tolerate one second of discomfort" individual.

All types like you do is complain, they never take responsibility for your own shortcomings, and then you take subsequently take it out of everyone else. Seriously, my generation needs to grow the f%ck up and stop this chronic whinning, and wondering where their mother is to pick up after them when they make a mess.

Through your personal ramblings, you do have moments of clarity. For many professions, the job market really is horrible in Michigan, but this whole talk of the city and state being irrelevant, and how you get terrible winter depression, ect... (always bringing it back to your own personal discomfort) keeps drawing me back to what the problem really is (i.e. not Michigan; you). I'm getting tired of these soft-skinned twenty-somethings thinking that everything that has gone wrong in their community is "someone else's" problem, and it seems to cross all kinds of cultural, class, ethnic, racial, ect. lines. You speak of not being part of Metro Detroit as if that's something to be proud of. It's not, it's and anti-social view strangling this state that should be shamed into extinction.

It's been fifty years' worth of discomfort, chica. Secondly, I haven't asked my mother to clean up after me in a metaphorical or literal sense. I'm fully taking on responsibility to educate myself.

Secondly, my personal shortcomings are not for discussion. I don't owe you anything.

The state's falling down. It's going nowhere. There are such better things elsewhere and I have zero duty to this winter wunderland. I don't owe you, or Michigan, a thing, a cent or even a second thought. I'm not some surf to a lord's estate. There is nothing selfish with pursuing one's dreams, if the Constitution is to be believed.

Last but not least, until you've dealt with the crushing depression of seasonal mood disorder, or whatever it's medically known by, keep your observations to yourself.

So you can take your fallacy-ridden assumptions and horrific grasp of economics elsewhere. Or, if you like, stay here in Michigan; the choice is entirely yours, and I at least won't judge. I'm not going to respond to you anymore, and I'm not going to read your posts. You've completely convinced me that you have nothing worthwhile to say.

[MayorOfChicago]

We don't actually consider ourselves 'neighborhoods'. The majority of people living in Westland/Farmington Hills/Dearborn/Dearborn Heights grew up in Detroit int he 70's and said "Never, ever again" to crime and extremes of that decade.

To that extent, what little youth is left in southeast Michigan have no concept of being a part of Detroit. I used to find it offensive when out-of-state programs try to classify us as "Metro Detroit"... Because we're not. There's nothing to actually connect us to Detroit. No one goes there, certainly there's nothing to do there, and it's just kind of an outdated concept since local city governments became so much more powerful and real estate vastly expanded elsewhere.

I think that I've said this almost daily for the past 18 years, but I can't wait to get the hell out of this state. That's the general sentiment for everyone. It's very much a "last one turn the lights out" scenario, as someone above noted.

My God...that's so sad. If more than anything, because I've randomly talked to 2 different groups of people from Detroit the past few weeks, and all 3 of you are repeating the same words when asked about "what's up there".

I hope they can turn it around, seriously. It's an amazing situation though.

[ginsan2]

My God...that's so sad. If more than anything, because I've randomly talked to 2 different groups of people from Detroit the past few weeks, and all 3 of you are repeating the same words when asked about "what's up there".

I hope they can turn it around, seriously. It's an amazing situation though.

I like Ann Arbor a lot. That's the "city" we go to for, well, city-life.

Even if Detroit were second to none, peerless and overshadowing NYC or Los Angeles, it still wouldn't be the place for me.

The fact of the matter is that the more you try to do for Detroit, the further away from Detroit you have to be. Business contacts? Gotta go out of state. Forming a group similar to Chicago's World Chicago? Gotta leave again.

What's even worse is that Detroit was built by a man with the foresight so incredulously nonexistent I'm sure he only read last month's newspaper. The urban infrastructure is simply awful, and the entire grid would literally have to be torn down and rebuilt into a sensible square grid arrangement before growth became feasible.

It just keeps adding up to money we don't have, and investment money that just won't exist. I for one do not buy into the concept of another 'miracle industry' that will save Detroit, because jobs that require education are only out of state, thus draining the population of people that could qualify for higher tech/law/business jobs, thus creating a need for slow and stable growth, thus ensuring that the infrastructure is never repaired so much as reinforced... You see the problems?

None of this is being helped by our governor, who just doesn't seem to understand that big government isn't going to help anything. Raising all of the taxes she'd like to hike isn't going to actively help anyone. It severely harms businesses and it just serves to drive away more population.

[LMich]

Even if Detroit were second to none, peerless and overshadowing NYC or Los Angeles, it still wouldn't be the place for me.

Doesn't that say it all, though? To say that your view should be taken with a grain of salt is an understatement, to say the least. That city and this state can never be enough for you, so why should anyone seriously listen to your take on the situation? Everyone has a bias and agenda, but your's is particularly extreme and ridiculous. And, I have nothing worthwhile to say? We know your shtick, and it's the same old-same old.

There is absolutely no objectivity to your characterization of the region, and that should be painfully clear to all, by now. It's all about you and your discomforts. This has little to nothing to do with Michigan. Michigan has some very real and urgent problems, problems that you can't possibly be part of the solution to.

[DecoJim]

HumanMachinery, you have inadvertently unleashed a forum for Detroit bashers to come out of the woodwork.

You also have painted a negative picture with the title and subject manner of this thread. I am not suggesting that we avoid such subjects but some of the wording suggests a less than objective viewpoint. There are enough abandoned buildings such that you could post a thousand pictures to make Detroit look like Berlin in 1945 but there are also enought fully maintained and occupied homes and buildings to post a thousand pictures of places that any city should be proud to have.

I can't deny that Detroit faces serious problems, but the question is can Detroit overcome these problems and recover? I do not know.

What are some of the problems facing Detroit?
1. Racist police, racist real estate practices, and other acts of racism against African Americans lead to riots in 1943 and 1967. White flight was a larger problem in Detroit than any other city. Detroit lost 2/3 of its tax base in the 2nd half of the 20th century. Detroit population is down by 1 million people since 1950.

2. The very product that Detroit is most famous for allowed for easy escape to the suburbs (which were boring but relatively crime free). Freeway construction destroyed or cut in half many one vibrant neighborhoods.

3. High crime rates (possibly side effects of the other problems).

4. Poor decisions and short term thinking by the management of the big three automakers left them vulnerable to competition from Asian automakers. Little research was done on fuel efficiency because most buyers did not care about this (until recently); they did not plan for the day when efficienty would matter. They appear to still be in denial as they lobby against fuel efficency legislation. They do not seem to admit that in addition to quality, fuel economy was a major selling point for Japanese cars.

5. Massive and initially unforseen increases in health care costs have hit the US automakers harder than just about any other industry since the UAW contracts provided for lifetime paid medical plans. Even if the US automakers caught up completely in both quality and fuel economy to the Japanese standards, the big three would still have average of $1,500 handicap per car vs. recent Japanese assembly plants constructed in the US. The Japanese transplants currently have an insignificant number of retired workers. The US auto companies are trapped in a cycle of layoffs and restructuring that further reduces the ratio of active workers to retired workers.

6. The Detroit school system. It is hard to get families to move to Detroit without a significantly improved.

Detroit was one of the first US cities to be negatively affected by globalization (other cities that had textile industries and steel were also hit relatively early). Some of the ills are self inflicted but the fuel costs and our basically broken health care system are beyond Detroit's control.

Maybe I am naive, but I would prefer it if people would give Detroit a chance to make a come back instead of continuing to reinforce the notion that Detroit's condition is a lost cause. If the negative talk is taken to its logical conclusion, then the city should be abandonded. In fact some people talk as if it already is despite the current population estimate of 880,000 in the city limits. The remaining architectural legacy alone is worth saving. There are a tremendous number of architecturally significant buildings in a city that not only revolutionized transportation but also became the arsenal of democray during the second world war.

If you go downtown these days, you see a city that is looking better than it has looked in 30 years. Unfortunately the downtown and midtown are only a small fraction of the 139 square miles within the city limits. Perhaps a drastic plan will have to be implemented to condem and buldoze the worst neighborhoods so that city services can be concentrated on the more viable areas and the city budget can be balanced. There are a number of things I do not like about Detroit but I am not ready to give up on the city. Those that have should move on and not continue to reduce Detroit's chances for recovery by portraying the city in the worst possible light whenever and to whoever they get the chance.

[LMich]

Posting ruins is no less a reality as posting the incredibly restoration and reconstruction of the inner-city. The problem is not with the subject matter. In fact, the story of the Michigan Central Station is incredibly interesting. It's also, because of its prominent location, a constant reminder of how the federal, state, and local government and private sector failed (and continues to fail) this city. The problem is with the purposefully weighted commentary.

No one is asking that anyone who posts about the city only say nice things about it. That kind of dishonest commentary is just as bad as the commentary on the other end. All that people like myself continue to ask is to be honest and fair in your critique, and that is hardly asking too much. The fact of that matter is that the city is a mixed bag, and to only portray it as all good or all bad does anyone wanting to to objectively learn about the city a great disservice, and all of this talk of Detroit being 'irrelevant' and a 'lost cause' is exactly the kind of crap that needs to be corrected if people have no shame in misrepresenting the complicated subject of Detroit and Michigan.

[Trumbull]

What's even worse is that Detroit was built by a man with the foresight so incredulously nonexistent I'm sure he only read last month's newspaper.

Who?

The urban infrastructure is simply awful, and the entire grid would literally have to be torn down and rebuilt into a sensible square grid arrangement before growth became feasible.

I'm guessing you're talking about downtown, right? I think that the street layout is great, it creates interestingly shaped buildings and plots of land that can't really be used for anything but parks, preserving green space. The rest of the city has a square grid. And we've tried "fixing" the grid before, with freeways that supposedly made it "easier" to get around. Instead, they divided neighborhoods, increased sprawl, and made us dependent on our car to buy a gallon of milk.

[PhillyRising]

One can only hope Detroit and it's suburbs can break down the barriers and work together for both their sakes.

As for the person who gets severely depressed by winter weather...living in a cookie cutter sunbelt sprawler would do the same thing to me! I'd rather live
in Detroit!

LMich....if you know of a way to get rid of your negative people....let me know so I can send all the Negadelphians along with them.

[BG918]

Man it's always so sad to hear about Detroit. I've never been but a friend that was from there and moved to Oklahoma (better jobs if you can believe that) said it was like St. Louis but worse, referring to all the abandoned houses/buildings and high crime rate. But I mean if people like ginsan want to leave, who's to stop them? There are plenty of great opportunities in other cities across the U.S., and our current generation likes to move around and experience different places. Detroit's unfortunately not one of those places...

[LMich]

LMich....if you know of a way to get rid of your negative people....let me know so I can send all the Negadelphians along with them.

I don't want to get rid of negative (or positive) opinions, but I do want them to know if they are want to portray any cities situation in a single light, be it in the brightest or darkest of lights, that they better be able to back it up with something much more substantial than personal anecdotes (and problems) and exaggerated circumstances. And, regardless of even that, that they realize their credibility is instantly reduced when they show themselves incapable of objectivity in debate such as making statements about an entire urban area of 3.9 million (Metro 4-5 million) being 'irrelevant' and a 'lost cause'. When you make such incredibly bold and oversimplified (and rash) claims, you'd better be ready to pour on a plethora of facts to even begin to make valid that awesome claim.

I'm not trying to change minds like those of ginsan and HumanMachinery; I couldn't if I wanted to. And, to be honest, I'd much rather deal with people on a daily basis that want to be here, so I'd much rather those that carry a rain cloud over their head move as soon as they possibly can. I just hope that the people that live here and then schitt on the state and city whenever they get the chance, realize that their over-exaggerations will be challenged, and will be called to account. I'm sure we all personally know a "Debbie Downer" (or two); they are of little to no use for a foward-moving, problem-solving society, and they do nothing more than hold you back or weigh you down.

[PhillyRising]

^I understand your position completely. It's an everyday battle just to get people here to see that Philadelphia has improved but you wouldn't know it by them.

I think Detroit is pointed in the right direction now. I feel for a city to come back...that it has to start with it's core and work out and Detroit is doing that albeit slowly. It took decades for the city to decline, so nobody can expect it to rebound quickly. The hardest thing it seems is for your suburbs to take off their blinders and realize that a virbrant, prospersous Detroit is in their best interest. That's seems to be your worst battle.

[pip]

You should feel shame because you represent a particularly ugly and stereotypical segment of my generation, the completely self-absorbed "Me-First Generation". That is the "I want what I want, now" individual, the "God forbid I have to put in ANY work to get the community that I want to exist" individual, the "I won't tolerate one second of discomfort" individual.

All types like you do is complain, they never take responsibility for your own shortcomings, and then you take subsequently take it out of everyone else. Seriously, my generation needs to grow the f%ck up and stop this chronic whinning, and wondering where their mother is to pick up after them when they make a mess.

Through your personal ramblings, you do have moments of clarity. For many professions, the job market really is horrible in Michigan, but this whole talk of the city and state being irrelevant, and how you get terrible winter depression, ect... (always bringing it back to your own personal discomfort) keeps drawing me back to what the problem really is (i.e. not Michigan; you). I'm getting tired of these soft-skinned twenty-somethings thinking that everything that has gone wrong in their community is "someone else's" problem, and it seems to cross all kinds of cultural, class, ethnic, racial, ect. lines. You speak of not being part of Metro Detroit as if that's something to be proud of. It's not, it's and anti-social view strangling this state that should be shamed into extinction.

You only live once and you are only young once. Who wouldn't want to live where they find most satisfying - you only get one shot at it.

[LMich]

That was just me ranting. At the end of the day, people should live where they feel they want to live. I don't have a problem with that. What I have a problem with is people bashing their former places of residence on the way out of the door, and those that never make it out the door and continue to choke everyone with their negativity. It's profoundly immature and unhealthy, and no one should have to listen to or live with such garbage day after day.

I can't fault someone for moving where they want to, and living how they feel they want to live. But, you can find your life and fortune beyond your current place of residence without telling everyone within earshot how unhappy you are, and how their location contributes to that. There is no good reason to feel the need to try and convince everyone around you, and those that don't know about your place of residence, how terrible a place that they live in, or how terrible a place they are witnessing.

Hell, I don't wish any ill-will on people like Ginsan; I just wish they'd afford the rest of us the same.

[Nunavuter]

I don't want to get rid of negative (or positive) opinions, but I do want them to know if they are want to portray any cities situation in a single light, be it in the brightest or darkest of lights, that they better be able to back it up with something much more substantial than personal anecdotes (and problems) and exaggerated circumstances....

I'm not trying to change minds like those of ginsan and HumanMachinery; I couldn't if I wanted to. And, to be honest, I'd much rather deal with people on a daily basis that want to be here, so I'd much rather those that carry a rain cloud over their head move as soon as they possibly can.

Truth be told, I invited HumanMachinery to join this site, and encouraged him to present his historical writings because this site has the right audience for them. HM is the kind of person who buys books on local history and cares about his environment, past, present and future. I know for a fact he also has a "gems" thread planned. He started with this one.

The main story of Detroit over the last half century is the story of its decline and decay, and understanding the titanic historic forces that resulted in this phenomenon is a worthy area of study. Too often this story is reduced to a one-dimensional issue such as crime, or a certain former mayor, or the 1967 riots as if those alone comprise answers.

This thread is more melancholy than defeatist, as is HM himself. I'm sure he'll be happy to see that his post has spurred discussion of complex urban matters such as the impact of automobiles and highway routes through neighbourhoods. That's why I invited him here.

[dfane]

The reason Comerica is moving to Texas has to do with taxes, not the state of Detroit. They're still keeping a huge chunk of their workforce in Michigan, but moving the top brass to Dallas. Michigan couldn't have done anything to stop it because we favor a high quality of life over a tax system that overly favors big business.

lol yea cuz the quality of life looks GREAT in Detroit...
When are people going to realize taxes are not our friend in any way shape or form. Especially in the places like Detroit where the money goes into something that cant be fixed by the government.

Big business is so bad I guess, but I dont see alot of poor people hiring lately or as a matter of fact ever.
Do yourself a favor and stop worshipping the alter of big government and maybe embarce businesses, since they are the ones that shape and make our country not our government.

[NewYorkYankee]

I'm just going to add my two cents here:shrug:


I don't think Detriot's future is going to come from the people currently living there. For those who remember such occurances as "Devils Night", "1967" and Gary Coleman, I hold no hope for people rooting for Detriot.

However, Some people see oppertunity and I sincerely hope that comes.

As for my generation, I do agree with LMich, we are kinda selfish. But never lose sight of the few of us that do care. It only takes one person with vision........

[DecoJim]

Who?
This had me stumped for a few minutes as I could not think of any one person who "built" Detroit. I think ginsan2 is refering to Augustus Woodward, who planned Detroit's street grid after the 1805 fire. The complaint about the downtown street arrangement is trivial since it did not prevent Detroit from rising to become one of the most important and successful cities in the world by 1929. Most of the rest of Detroit does have a reasonably standard street grid that is occassionally interrupted by Gratiot, Woodward, and Grand River.

LMICH, I thought that I stated near the beginning of my last post that I was not advocating avoiding the subject of ruins. However, when the ruins are shown with general statements to the effect that all of Detroit is a lost cause, then it becomes anti-Detroit propaganda. Reality is bad enought, no reason to make it worse.

[UglymanCometh]

Let's end this right here.

For those of us that actually live in the city, we realize that there's some truth to what Ginsan said, sans the extreme doom and gloom.

However, when people that don't live IN the city make comments about the inner workings of a burg of 850k, then they should automatically be dismissed into the "opinion" pile.

Glad that's settled.

As for the rest: Detroit, unfortunately, proves that not EVERYONE deserves the right to vote. Detroit's problems mostly stem from idiots at the polls.

[miketoronto]

I wonder if the Michigan Central and Buffalo Central Terminals having locations outside of the downtown cores, is the reason these two landmarks have not been restored yet. Lets be honest, they are in out of way locations, even if only 5-10min from downtown.

Could the decision to abandon downtown back when these places were built, be the reason they themselves are abandoned today?

[hudkina]

I think the point needs to be made that on a relative scale, Detroit isn't that different from other major cities. It is true that Detroit tends to be at the lower end of the spectrum, but there's not much of a difference between one end and the other. Cleveland has more people below the poverty line than Detroit, New York has more gang activity than Detroit, Washington has a higher murder rate than Detroit, Dallas has more petty crime than Detroit, Miami has worse schools than Detroit, Los Angeles has more homeless people than Detroit, etc.

The idea that Detroit is in a world of its own is silly. Every major city in the nation has problems. While Detroit does have many areas where the neighborhoods have been decimated by the flight of the middle-class, that is only a small portion of the city at large. The majority of Detroit neighborhoods are comparable to neighborhoods in any other major city.

In 2000, the city of Houston had a population of 1,954,848 in an area of 580 sq. mi. The poverty rate in Houston was about 20%. If you want to make a true comparison, Detroit and its inner-ring suburbs cover an area of 586 sq. mi. with a population of 2,678,532 people. The poverty rate in the comparable "Detroit" was only about 14%. If you want to make the reverse comparsion. In 2000, Houston's 610 loop which covers an area of about 100 sq. mi. had a population of 456,644. 1 in 4 residents in the 610 loop lived below the poverty line. In 2000, Detroit had a population of 951,270 in an area of 139 sq. mi. 1 in 4 residents in Detroit lived below the poverty line.

This quote comes directly from the FBI Uniform Crime Report, where most of those "most dangerous cities" rankings come from:
Each year when Crime in the United States is published, many entities—news media, tourism agencies, and other groups with an interest in crime in our Nation—use reported figures to compile rankings of cities and counties. These rankings, however, are merely a quick choice made by the data user; they provide no insight into the many variables that mold the crime in a particular town, city, county, state, or region. Consequently, these rankings lead to simplistic and/or incomplete analyses that often create misleading perceptions adversely affecting cities and counties, along with their residents.

Anyway, my point is not to paint a rosy picture of Detroit, but to show that despite a few apparent problems and a perception that is wildly more imaginative than reality, Detroit is just another American city that shouldn't be pitied or put under a microscope any more than any other city.

[Michi]

This thread is on some serious crack!

I would be depressed as all hell and want to kill myself too if I was surrounded by the likes of some responding here.

Detroit's more than Uranus.
[imp]http://modeldmedia.com/galleries/Default/Story%20Images/Issue%2099/Dog%20Walking/dogwalking-0021.jpg[/img]

For nearly a decade Opal Ritchie and Wendell White race walked around their Green Acres neighborhood on Detroit’s northwest side, proud to log at least four miles at a swift aerobic pace.

Then came baby Adam White. "We still walk, but we stop a lot more, wave a lot more and interact a bit more with our neighbors. We’ve met people we didn’t know existed," says Opal, whose baby turns one year old this month. "Adam loves to go out in his stroller and babble in baby talk. Neighbors love to see him smile."

One of the surest ways to meet neighbors and join conversations is to step out with a stroller or dog leash, according to active Detroiters. Days of feeling lonely, isolated, evaporate around the happy noise of babbling and barking.

"Babies are a sign of hope in the world because we can see the wonder in their eyes and the openness," says John Daniels, director of the University of Detroit Mercy Leadership Institute. Daniels encourages students to experience the street in order to understand a neighborhood and feel a part of its collective energy.

Dogs play an active part in neighborhoods too, Daniels says. "Dogs are happy to see us. Their tails wag," he says. "They take us beyond our thoughts and sensibilities to what is real and happening now.”
http://modeldmedia.com/galleries/Default/Story%20Images/Issue%2099/Dog%20Walking/dogwalking-0052.jpg

Furry friends

Daniels, who lived 30 years in the University District before moving to the Manresa Jesuit Retreat House in Bloomfield Hills, said he fondly recalls the density of his two-flat neighborhood just north of the college. Daniels and his wife held annual ice cream socials for all the kids on the block, an event that helped bond the 60 families and amuse the children.

"The contagion was wonderful. No one saw race or economic differences," Daniels says. "They saw smiles and heard happy barking and meowing as the pets came out too."

Last month the Michigan Humane Society held a free vaccination clinic for pets at Clark Park, bringing scores of southwest Detroit neighbors out to meet, greet and share animal stories. Anne Weekley, a Hubbard Farms resident brought her dog, Peanuts to see his furry friends.

"Peanut loves all the kids. He puts his head down or rolls over on his belly to get petted," Weekley says. The more she walks, the more she meets children, families, even a man of marginal means. "This man was so charmed by Peanut he began leaving dog food at my door step."

Plodding along the sidewalk of her multicultural neighborhood as her dog sniffs or prances, she finds smiles and barks are a universal language. Happy faces wave in daily greetings as the weather brings more faces out of doors.

Play on lively, diversified sidewalks differs from virtually all other daily incidental play offered American children, according to the late sociologist and author Jane Jacobs, who insisted street life was better for mingling than sterile parks. In The Death and Life of Great American Cities, Jacobs writes:

"In real life, only from the ordinary adults of the city sidewalks do children learn – if they learn it at all – the first fundamental of successful city life: People must take a modicum of public responsibility for each other even if they have no ties to each other."
http://modeldmedia.com/galleries/Default/Story%20Images/Issue%2099/Dog%20Walking/dogwalking-0036.jpg

Mutual love

Paul Eggebrecht, father of two-year-old Maggie and owner of Dobby, pulls a wagon and a leash as he takes his nightly walk through Green Acres. He has had so many conversations with neighbors since strolling with his daughter he now wants to run for the citizen board of directors.

"You notice more when you are outside, you feel a greater part of the community," Eggebrecht says. He knows nearly every house with animals because Dobby begins to put her ears back and wag her tail as soon as she is within sniffing distance of her play pals. "It’s a mutual love fest."

[Michi]

edit

[Michi]

http://modeldmedia.com/

http://forum.skyscraperpage.com/showthread.php?t=132914

[Evergrey]

I Cleveland has more people below the poverty line than Detroit, New York has more gang activity than Detroit, Washington has a higher murder rate than Detroit, Dallas has more petty crime than Detroit, Miami has worse schools than Detroit, Los Angeles has more homeless people than Detroit, etc.

Can you please not make stuff up? Cleveland has a higher poverty rate than Detroit... but Detroit has "more people in poverty". Cleveland's poverty rate is about 1% higher than Detroit... but Detroit has about twice as many people as Cleveland... hence Detroit has about twice as many people in poverty. NYC has more gang activity? Can you quantify this? I'd bet you a coney and a 2 litre of Faygo that while NYC may have more "aggregate gang activity" (since it's 10 times larger than Detroit), Detroit most likely has higher per capita gang activity. And while City A might have worse schools than Detroit and City B might have more potholes than Detroit... the fact is that Detroit ranks at or near the bottom in most relevant indices of the urban condition. Detroit truly is an exceptional case of urban decline, which is why so many people on here are interested in discussing its present state and potential strategies for improving its condition. There's no point in throwing up smokescreens, getting angry at forumers or trying to make other cities look bad when somebody wants to talk about Detroit... this is an urban forum and it exists for people to discuss urban issues... whether it be an Olympic bid by Chicago... or Detroit's physical and economic erosion.

[LMich]

Can you please not make stuff up? Cleveland has a higher poverty rate than Detroit... but Detroit has "more people in poverty". Cleveland's poverty rate is about 1% higher than Detroit... but Detroit has about twice as many people as Cleveland... hence Detroit has about twice as many people in poverty. NYC has more gang activity? Can you quantify this? I'd bet you a coney and a 2 litre of Faygo that while NYC may have more "aggregate gang activity" (since it's 10 times larger than Detroit), Detroit most likely has higher per capita gang activity. And while City A might have worse schools than Detroit and City B might have more potholes than Detroit... the fact is that Detroit ranks at or near the bottom in most relevant indices of the urban condition. Detroit truly is an exceptional case of urban decline, which is why so many people on here are interested in discussing its present state and potential strategies for improving its condition. There's no point in throwing up smokescreens, getting angry at forumers or trying to make other cities look bad when somebody wants to talk about Detroit... this is an urban forum and it exists for people to discuss urban issues... whether it be an Olympic bid by Chicago... or Detroit's physical and economic erosion.

What did he make up? Really, you can go get your jollies, elsewhere. You've seriously become little more than a gadfly who thinks he knows more about the region and state than he really does. Instead of constantly flapping off at the mouth, these days, you should really practice listening a bit more. I can't imagine the hell you'd give me if I went into every Pittsburgh thread talking about it as if I knew the place. It's getting old.

[hudkina]

You know what I meant, and besides I posted that blurb from the FBI UCR that basically stated that comparisons like the ones I posted were pointless. The reason I did that was to show that "rankings" aren't all they're cracked up to be. To many, the fact that Detroit ranks lower than certain cities on "bad" lists is irrelevant, but the fact the Detroit ranks higher than certain cities is supposedly proof of what a terrible city Detroit is. It's a double standard.

The fact that I said Dallas has more petty crime than Detroit isn't my attempt to show Dallas in a bad light, but rather that our perception of cities is anecdotal. Detroit is bad because people say it is bad. Dallas is good because people say it is good. The same goes for Houston. Detroit is the "ghetto" city because people say it is the "ghetto" city. Houston is the
"nice sunbelt city" because people say it is the "nice sunbelt city".

Nobody really cares if Detroit has a higher or lower percentage of people below the poverty line or a higher or lower crime rate. They want to look at Detroit from a certain point of view and thank God their city isn't as horrible as that.

They don't want to see the typical tree-lined neighborhood with nice homes. That reminds them too much of their own city, and Detroit can't be anything like their own city. They're only interested in the few abandoned skyscrapers so they can marvel at how much better their city is than Detroit.

[hoosier]

lol yea cuz the quality of life looks GREAT in Detroit...
When are people going to realize taxes are not our friend in any way shape or form. Especially in the places like Detroit where the money goes into something that cant be fixed by the government.

Big business is so bad I guess, but I dont see alot of poor people hiring lately or as a matter of fact ever.
Do yourself a favor and stop worshipping the alter of big government and maybe embarce businesses, since they are the ones that shape and make our country not our government.

He can "worship" and believe whatever the FUCK he wants, since this IS a free country, a concept you must find repugnant since you are espousing fascist ideology. Detroit goes as the Big Three go, so it really is corporate America that screwed over Detroit.

[Michi]

There's no point in throwing up smokescreens, getting angry at forumers or trying to make other cities look bad when somebody wants to talk about Detroit... this is an urban forum and it exists for people to discuss urban issues... whether it be an Olympic bid by Chicago... or Detroit's physical and economic erosion.
That never happened, and I can't recall a time when hudkina ever went out of his way to belittle another place. He was simply illustrating a point and offering a bit of leverage to the highly fantasized riff raff from previous posters that really took this thread spiriling in a downward direction from the very beginning.

The original post even makes me wonder why I even spend time here anymore. Reading it, I feel like I just failed the first grade lesson on Detroit. If that's the direction that this forum is going to take, I don't feel the need to be a part of it.

Showcasing, addressing, dialoguing, and everything in between about the good and bad is great. But if people aren't going to come down from their fantasies about, "oh oh this is SOOOOOOOOO a "last one to leave, turn out the light" bull s*it, then there's really no point in wasting time, and frankly becoming discouraged about the positive direction that we want to take Detroit and Michigan. I can get my dose of that from the real world, all day every day.

[hoosier]

How have the new stadiums impacted Detroit? Have they fulfilled their promises of bringing in more development and economic activity?

Maybe the Pistons should build a new stadium outside of the downtown area but in the city, maybe near the train station? It sure would be better than playing in the middle of nowhere, which is where the Pistons play now.

[hoosier]

I would get upset too if people came on a hometown thread and started trashing the city as well. I am a native Hoosier, and there are many problems with the state and Indianapolis, but I am with my state and city for the long haul, so I can see where LMich is coming from. I want to reverse the brain drain afflicting the state and be a part of its revival, although Indy is doing quite well economically.

[shanthemanatl]

The reason Comerica is moving to Texas has to do with taxes, not the state of Detroit. They're still keeping a huge chunk of their workforce in Michigan, but moving the top brass to Dallas. Michigan couldn't have done anything to stop it because we favor a high quality of life over a tax system that overly favors big business.

Surely you're not implying that Dallas lacks a "high quality of life" in comparison to Detroit.....???

[miketoronto]

Surely you're not implying that Dallas lacks a "high quality of life" in comparison to Detroit.....???

What makes Dallas any different from Detroit? Outside of Detroit city limits, are some of the richest suburban districts in the USA. It is not like people working in that bank head office were living in the ghetto.

Believe me the quality of life in Metro Detroit is probably the same as Dallas, if not better. Just like Dallas has some troubled inner city areas with poverty so does Detroit. But outside of the trouble spots both cities have the same quality of life with suburbs, malls, and cars.

[Michi]

How have the new stadiums impacted Detroit? Have they fulfilled their promises of bringing in more development and economic activity?

Maybe the Pistons should build a new stadium outside of the downtown area but in the city, maybe near the train station? It sure would be better than playing in the middle of nowhere, which is where the Pistons play now.

Hoosier, stadiums shouldn't be looked at as economic development catalysts. I understand what your question is, likely mostly in regard to spin off business and the like. But Detroit, and most other cities don't invest in projects like stadiums because they don't provide the levels of return equal to their costs. That's obviously not to say that the areas that they are in aren't better off, because they are. More than anything, they are a great marketing tool for new housing, expanding the entertainment district, and offering alternative locations to shows and performances.

They also offer reasons for non Detroiters to visit the city and spend their money. On the contrary, the Palace of Auburn Hills, 35 miles outside the city, offers no such environment other than a really nice facility to visit (inside the walls). The Palace just completed a renovation, so it won't be going anywhere for a long time.

Kinda back to my last reply:
People need to realize that the Detroit urban system is 5 million people strong. It is NOT going anywhere. With that said, there are choices to be made, and critical ones at that. Place yourself in the time periods of years past when the state found itself in similar conditions, and imagine the decisions that needed to be made at those times.

As a specific example, that's all people talk about these days is MASS TRANSIT. There isn't a day that goes by in Detroit that someone isn't talking about mass transit, from the farthest cow pasture to priciest penthouse condo. The new economy, the arts, the culture, the big businesses and where they chose to locate and how something that simple can play a role beyond comprehension in changing the economy and netting the young, freshly college educated brains, who...if they don't find what they want here, they go to NYC, Chicago, Houston, Phoenix, LA, Atlanta, Seattle...They're not going to Bucksnort, TN, Danville, KS, Badlandtown, SD or the equivalent to a lifeless Detroit suburban township whose town center is a barn.

Yes, we trump all other metros in home foreclosure, and while we can spent another 10 pages talking about that topic all alone, we can also talk about the fact that incomes are still rising, building permits are still being issued, towns are growing, and at the core of it all, our city on the forefront who represents us all, is the hot spot in the entire state. The numbers don't lie...both positive and negative. I know what they all are. If there is ever any time to fight, now is that time. I understand people's wanting to leave and their choice to do so. Nothing wrong with that. But to promote the rest of us as being too weak to clean up the mess we're in and sweep up your muddy tracks at the Ohio state line is beyond disrespectful. People are committing their whole lives to turning Michigan around, so it would be appreciated if there was just a little more respect for them. I know everyone can relate to that, because not too many posts back, the question was raised regarding having only one life to live and how you spend it. Some people find that what their purpose in life is is to not live for themselves, but for others and to be inspired to make a difference in the lives of people who may need it most.

[Michi]

Surely you're not implying that Dallas lacks a "high quality of life" in comparison to Detroit.....???

NO! Stop right there. This isn't a city vs city discussion. Especially when Detroit is involved. There really is no reasoning with people on topics such as that. I think it's clear that hudkina was not implying anything. He was merely making a point. It would be silly to think otherwise.

[hudkina]

The stadiums have had a huge impact on the surrounding neighborhoods, both directly and indirectly. For one, Detroit wouldn't have hosted the Superbowl for the second time if it wasn't for the construction of Ford Field. The preperations for the Superbowl helped create Campus Martius (a city plaza in the heart of downtown) and the riverfront park system that will eventually travel several miles from the Ambassador Bridge to the Bell Isle bridge.

Merchant's Row, a stretch of mostly formerly abandoned storefronts along Woodward (Detroit's main street) was renovated into lofts with streetfront retail, coinciding with the construction of the massive Compuware Building which wanted to be located right in Campus Martius. The Hard Rock Cafe and Borders Books moved to Detroit because Compuware called for them to move into their lobby. Across the street a formerly abandoned theatre is being renovated and adjacent storefronts have seen new businesses. Nearby a 1960's office highrise that had low occupancy rates has decided to convert itself into a condo highrise which led to the construction of an adjacent garage with firstfloor retail that includes a CVS pharmacy.

They also helped to revitalize Washington Blvd and Broadway with both streets being completely reconstructed. The newly revitalized Broadway saw several new bars and restaurants open, several new condo conversions started, and the construction of the brand new Downtown YMCA completed. The newly revitalized Washington Blvd helped spur the renovation of the old Book-Cadillac Hotel which in turn spurred the development of an adjacent Condo project. It also indirectly helped to push forward the plans to renovate the nearby former Pick-Fort Shelby Hotel into a new Doubletree Suites. With all the new excitement of the Superbowl and surrounding development, dozens of smalltime developers have gone through and renovated some of the smaller outdated commercial buildings into condos which have now started the discussion of bring true urban retail to downtown.

Just north of the stadiums is Brush Park which has gone from being the worst example of urban decay in the city to the home of hundreds of new and renovated housing units with more planned for the future.

As far as the future is concerned, plans are already coming together to revive downtown enclaves suchas Capitol Park (that sits between Washington Blvd and Woodward Ave) as well as Harmonie Park (which is nestled near to Campus Martius and has already saw the construction of a Hilton Garden Inn for the Superbowl.) Other plans include the renovation of the Broderick Tower into a condo highrise, and the possible relocation of Quicken Loans/Rock Financial into a new downtown highrise.

Though the casinos have been a longtime coming, they have done nothing but help and add to the revitalization seen with the construction of the new stadiums.

[Policy Wonk]

Part of the problem with the redevelopment of rail sites is they are usually an environmental mess and the costs of getting them into a condition where they are marketable for private development is massive, and a demand for such "character" retail and office space has to exist to enable it. And the isolation really doesn't help.

I like Michigan, unfortunately the realistic oppertunities for economic revitalization are few. It is very difficult for the rustbelt states to compete with the industrialized sunbelt, that not only doesn't have significant accumulated legacy expenses. They also have business friendly tax and labor laws. Michigan workers make on average $8000 more than their contemporaries in the industrialized sunbelt, if you exclude California. The lower paid non-union sunbelt labor also has higher levels of productivity.

Michigan is basically squeezed from three sides, the non-union industrialized sunbelt, Ontario where the crushing healthcare burden and other legacy costs are greatly reduced by the Canadian welfare state and the global economy that is unforgiving to those perceived uncompetitive.

Part of the problem is America is too young to have seen many regions go into a permanent decline, there aren't even very many industrialized ghost towns. So the shock to the system is greater. There are parts of industrial England and Germany that make Detroit look like a boomtown.

And like Detroit they are suffocated by larger cities that have such gravity as economic centers that the oppertunity for Detroit to pull a Singapore, who was 4000 miles away from the nearest English speaking, western rule or law, economic capital and re-invent itself as an economic center in a generation is impossible given the pull of Chicago, Toronto, Boston and New York all within a few hunderd miles. The new-economy economic activity that could revitalize Detroit is too easily drawn into one of those global centers.

[hudkina]

I wasn't implying that Dallas doesn't have a high quality of life. It does, I'm saying that the economic structure that Texas has favors business over community moreso than in Detroit. In that regard a business, who's sole purpose is to make money is going to choose Texas over Michigan. For Michigan it's all about the worker. In Texas it's all about the business. One can't claim to be better than the other. Right now Texas is getting the better end of the deal, but at what cost?

[hoosier]

I wasn't implying that Dallas doesn't have a high quality of life. It does, I'm saying that the economic structure that Texas has favors business over community moreso than in Detroit. In that regard a business, who's sole purpose is to make money is going to choose Texas over Michigan. Now obviously one can't claim to be better than the other. For Michigan it's all about the worker. In Texas it's all about the business. Obviously right now Texas is getting the better end of the deal, but at what cost?

So true. I would NEVER want to live in Texas. That state has one of the highest teen pregnancy rates in the country, is incredibly polluted around the Houston metro area (all of the oil refineries) and has a horrible secondary school system. But hey, it's a good place to make a shitload of money if you are a corporation.

[hudkina]

I don't want this to become a bashfest. Texas isn't as bad as that, in the same way Michigan isn't as bad as many perceive it to be. Texas has problems that it has to deal with and Michigan has problems that it has to deal with. Both states are doing the best they can in this new global economy.

[Michi]

The business climate in Michigan is not bad. Yes, there is a lot of restructuring going on, especially at the state level, but Michigan has traditionally been a good state to do quality business in. It had a run at retaining and expanding them as well.

We're constantly looking at ways to compete, just as every other place does. You have to take what is unique to an area and identify your assets. One example of this is Aerotropolis.

Aerotropolis is one of a few concepts around the world that focuses on air transportation as the center of the region's global competitiveness. Detroit Metropolitan Airport is among the nation's busiest passenger terminals, and just down the freeway a few miles is Willow Run, Michigan's 3rd busiest airport and primarily used for goods and services.

Currently, there is a massive proposition on the table called Aerotropolis that strategically is formulating a way in which SE Michigan can capitalize on developing the airport region into a major destination for transportation and business creation in the global marketplace. The location lies directly between two of the state's top 3 research universities (University of Michigan and Wayne State U) as well as a link to the state's downtown core and international border crossing, which is the largest border for commercial trade in the world. Not to mention that the Detroit Metropolitan Area (Windsor included) is the largest international metropolis in the world.

So, just by hinting at the capabilities and opportunities that we have here, barely scratches the surface that the people and culture of work ethic here have on the table. Detroit is one of a few cities that can honestly say it alone changed the world (automobile). We're innovators, explorers, workers, and believers. Despite what a lot of people want you to think about how weak we are, we're always going to come out on top in many ways. If you ever wonder where Detroit pride comes from, look no further. We do it the best, but only because we have it the hardest. There's no beat-around-the-bush method to the quality of life here. It is what it is, and just might be the definition of survival of the fittest.

http://images.fastcompany.com/magazine/107/aerotropolis_map.gif

Google: "aerotropolis"

[Michi]

Hoosier, keep an eye on your local media in the next couple of days. Tomorrow, Wednesday, there will be a conference in Indianapolis attended by representitives from the "Rust Belt" states discussing a new concept called, "THE NORTH COAST". The North Coast promotes the economic uniqueness found in the states surrounding the Great Lakes and how we have a lot of assets that are envied by other places, particularly the left and right coasts of the USA...which are typically the global front doors to the rest of the country.

I'd be interested if you find anything in the Indianapolis media that mentions this, and if you would post it maybe in the Midwest forum. A lot of it is being led by Detroit area names who will be traveling to Indy for the conference.

[H-Ville Man]

Not to pile on here..... BUT, a good friend of mine said downtown Detroit was a mess. When he was there for a business trip he said it was actually depressing to walk the street since they were so dead. Apparently almost all the action is in the burbs and on one goes downtown.

Is this true?

[LMich]

I wasn't implying that Dallas doesn't have a high quality of life. It does, I'm saying that the economic structure that Texas has favors business over community moreso than in Detroit. In that regard a business, who's sole purpose is to make money is going to choose Texas over Michigan. For Michigan it's all about the worker. In Texas it's all about the business. One can't claim to be better than the other. Right now Texas is getting the better end of the deal, but at what cost?

I know you kind of already backed off from this, but the simplification that "Michigan is all about the worker, and Texas is all about the business" is the type of generalizations that just don't work, in reality. It makes it sound as if Michigan is highly business-unfriendly, which isn't the case, at all. The truth is that established states such as Michigan (and this includes Ohio and the rest), I think, realize the balance that has to be had, in the long term, between business in worker.

Also, I think people are failing to see that a place like Alabama will eventually mature and go through the same growing-up process as Michigan, which will lead to the realization of a need to both sustain business and offer workers a quality of life. States are simply at different maturity levels. A state like Alabama is little more than a beneficiary of a natural progression to the South and West, and little more than staging areas before these type of jobs springboard to other international labor markets.

What's funny is that many conveniently forget that globalization raped textile jobs in the South, and somehow think that attracting auto jobs is the wave of the future. Those that don't learn from the past will repeat it. States like Michigan weren't always a bastion of organized labor, and nor will states like Georgia never be. Let us not fool ourselves into thinking that many of these places aren't repeating the exact same errors that were committed in the past.

[LMich]

Not to pile on here..... BUT, a good friend of mine said downtown Detroit was a mess. When he was there for a business trip he said it was actually depressing to walk the street since they were so dead. Apparently almost all the action is in the burbs and on one goes downtown.

Is this true?

A mess in what way? You've just described a dozen or so downtown's, BTW, but it's easily one of the better improved downtowns.

[hudkina]

I would say this is a fair representation of what the typical downtown human traffic is like during the weekday:

http://downriverdetroit.net/waynecounty/detroit/2006/007.jpg
http://downriverdetroit.net/waynecounty/detroit/2006/009.jpg
http://downriverdetroit.net/waynecounty/detroit/2006/111.jpg
http://downriverdetroit.net/waynecounty/detroit/2006/114.jpg
http://downriverdetroit.net/waynecounty/detroit/2006/120.jpg
http://downriverdetroit.net/waynecounty/detroit/2006/121.jpg
http://downriverdetroit.net/waynecounty/detroit/2006/137.jpg
http://downriverdetroit.net/waynecounty/detroit/2006/138.jpg
http://downriverdetroit.net/waynecounty/detroit/2006/180.jpg
http://downriverdetroit.net/waynecounty/detroit/2006/215.jpg
http://downriverdetroit.net/waynecounty/detroit/2006/225.jpg
http://downriverdetroit.net/waynecounty/detroit/2006/228.jpg

Obviously, things change a bit after 5, and on weekends when there aren't any major events downtown.

[skyfan]

A mess in what way? You've just described a dozen or so downtown's, BTW, but it's easily one of the better improved downtowns.

It improved but it's still rough compared to most. It's easy for us that frequent downtown or follow it's development over the last 10 years to appreciate many good changes. So I can see someone who doesn't know how bad it was before not appreciating how much better it is today.

[LMich]

Still, what kind of question is "my friend said _____, is this true/is that the case?" I probably shouldn't have even bitten that one. If you have to ask a question already framed through an aquaintence, you're probably not going to believe what anyone says to the contrary, otherwise, so the mistake was mine on that one. One has too look out for those questions or critiques that start with or include "my friend said", or "my sister stopped for the day...", or "I heard such-and-such..." or a number of other second-hand account questions.

[shanthemanatl]

NO! Stop right there. This isn't a city vs city discussion. Especially when Detroit is involved. There really is no reasoning with people on topics such as that. I think it's clear that hudkina was not implying anything. He was merely making a point. It would be silly to think otherwise.

YES SIR!!!

I just love it when you get stern with me, Michi. Makes me tingle all over!

[Don B.]

YES SIR!!!

If I were elected Mayor of Detroit...

I would first try to get all city and state income taxes abolished for city residents, at least for a certain period of time. This would increase the attractiveness of the city and hopefully reverse the mild population loss that apparently is still occurring.

Second, I would attempt to significantly encourage immigrant resettlement of the city. This would be another way to increase the population of the city. Detroit would be very attractive to people coming from other parts of the world, especially portions which are wartorn or economically depressed due to years of economic mismanagement.

Thirdly, I would start a block by block revitalization of the city. Anything not salvageable would be razed and the abandoned swaths of the city converted to parks (grass and trees - nothing too expensive to maintain at this point). Then, I would start homesteading sections of the abandoned parcels for free to those who promise to build and live on the land for at least five years.

Fourth, I would attempt to convert Michigan into a right-to-work state like Arizona (if it is not already like that). Making the state more attractive to businesses is a key component of this plan.

I realize that I'd probably have to be elected Emperor of Michigan for some of these changes to come to pass, but I think drastic measures are needed to bring Detroit back to her former glory.

Cool pics on the part of the first poster. I wonder if moving the train station is possible? If we can move London Bridge and put it in Lake Havasu City, Arizona (halfway across the world), then it may be feasible to tear it down and move it, block by block, downtown. This would allow the builder to rehab the structure and save the bones of it, while fixing all of the flaws (asbestos, I'm sure, to just name one). It could be part of a great mixed-use development - a museum, aquarium, casino and retail, office and residential space.

--don

[blockski]

Still, what kind of question is "my friend said _____, is this true/is that the case?" I probably shouldn't have even bitten that one. If you have to ask a question already framed through an aquaintence, you're probably not going to believe what anyone says to the contrary, otherwise, so the mistake was mine on that one. One has too look out for those questions or critiques that start with or include "my friend said", or "my sister stopped for the day...", or "I heard such-and-such..." or a number of other second-hand account questions.

That's ok, but realize that is how most people who haven't been to a place formulate their opinions of it. In Detroit's case, those opinions are predominately negative.

I just finished my graduate degree at U of M. I distinctly remember coming to visit the program, which included a tour of Detroit on the last day of the weekend. My impression of the city prior to coming was limited to bad experiences with long layovers at the old Detroit airport and the general bad rap the city has in the media, etc.

My impression from the tour, just before they dropped me off at the airport to fly back home, was that Detroit wasn't nearly as bad as people seem to imply. However, I say that as a person who's pretty open to urban experiences, and I can easily see how someone could see the level of disinvestment and never want to come back. Detroit has some fabulous old architecture, some great remnants of the city's glory days. There are great pockets of urbanism all throughout the city, they're fantastic, if you know where to look. The problem is, of course, that you have to know where to look.

On the other hand, during that tour, I was shocked at the level of decay in some of the neighborhoods. It far outstripped my previous impression of the worst of the worst (some of Chicago's southside projects). Burned out shells of buildings, overrun with urban prairie, with no signs of coming back anytime soon.

The crown jewel of this was the MCS. As I understand it, the station was always too far from the center of town to be successful, right from the day it was built. I don't think the interiors of the uppermost floors were ever finished, because they never had tenants to occupy them. Furthermore, the only tenants for the office portion were ones with an institutional link to the building, such as railroad and post office offices. Like many things in Detroit, it was an ambitious project, and like many other things in the D, it was overly so.

That train station was the final impression for me. Even though I think I have a far more positive impression of the city than most, I can't get over the symbolism of that station. Coming into the city from the south on 75 or down 96, and you can't miss it. It's a hulking, not-so-nice billboard saying 'Welcome to Detroit.' Coming closer to the building, the combination of broken glass in the once elegant windows surrounded by razor wire fencing is a less than ideal welcome mat.

Since then, I've had a chance to experience the city in more depth, to work there, eat, drink and sleep there. I find it a fascinating place. Detroit, to me, epitomizes every trend of American urbanism to the extreme. Industry built the city, and the good wages for low skilled jobs built the middle class, who then inhabited acre after acre of single family homes, radiating outward from the city center along the wonderful radial avenues. However, while all cities had racial tensions, and many had riots, few had such strong battles as Detroit. While many cities benefited from industrialization, no one relied on it more for greatness than Detroit, and now that's a legacy the city cannot escape. Suburbanization, deindustrialization, white flight, black flight, crime, decay, city/suburb political splits, you name it, and Detroit has it.

[Tuckerman]

[QUOTE=HumanMachinery;2903512]Those of you familiar with my hometown will know that it is not the most aesthetically pleasing or inhabitable part of the world. Detroit is one of the most blighted and decrepit cities in North America, a joy to both urban photographers and drug dealers. It was not always this way though.

.

-----------------------------------

Today's subject is the Michigan Central Depot, kids, or "why every other major city east of the Mississippi has refurbished its train station, while Detroit's is a condemned shell."


Thanks for posting this sad story - unfortunately one familiar in many places. here in Atlanta _ once a great railroad city and hub - basically has nothing left of the depot infrastructure - like elsewhere a decline of the railroad passanger era and the lack of interest in keeping many fine buildings. It is interesting to me that two contrasting cities - Detroit, a city in serious decline and Atlanta, a new South boomtown - share this common railroad fate - a pity in this time of airport and highway congestion

[PhillyRising]

You know what I meant, and besides I posted that blurb from the FBI UCR that basically stated that comparisons like the ones I posted were pointless. The reason I did that was to show that "rankings" aren't all they're cracked up to be. To many, the fact that Detroit ranks lower than certain cities on "bad" lists is irrelevant, but the fact the Detroit ranks higher than certain cities is supposedly proof of what a terrible city Detroit is. It's a double standard.

The fact that I said Dallas has more petty crime than Detroit isn't my attempt to show Dallas in a bad light, but rather that our perception of cities is anecdotal. Detroit is bad because people say it is bad. Dallas is good because people say it is good. The same goes for Houston. Detroit is the "ghetto" city because people say it is the "ghetto" city. Houston is the
"nice sunbelt city" because people say it is the "nice sunbelt city".

Nobody really cares if Detroit has a higher or lower percentage of people below the poverty line or a higher or lower crime rate. They want to look at Detroit from a certain point of view and thank God their city isn't as horrible as that.

They don't want to see the typical tree-lined neighborhood with nice homes. That reminds them too much of their own city, and Detroit can't be anything like their own city. They're only interested in the few abandoned skyscrapers so they can marvel at how much better their city is than Detroit.


I've been saying this for a long time. Certain northern cities have stigmas that they can't shake no matter how much they improve while certain cities down south can do no wrong even if the place has a number of problems. People define Philly by North Philly's condition and not the fact that there are numerous stable and desirable neighborhoods all over the city. I understand where you guys are coming from and it does piss me off when forumers on here tell you stop being 'so sensative" when you finally have had enough of the bullshit being crapped on your city and you speak your peace about it.

Go Detroit!

[peanut gallery]

Hudkina, far from depressing, those photos show a dynamic and beautiful central core. I've been to the Detroit area several times having in-laws there. On my first trip, about a dozen years ago, my wife and I went downtown to see where she used to work and because I really wanted to see it (despite her family's warnings that it was too dangerous and there was nothing to see - LOL!). Even then, you could see the potential. Detroit has some amazing architecture. Yes, some of it was in a state of decay, but some of the photos here and in "my photo" threads show that much of it is being preserved. A lot has changed since my last visit (5 years or so) and I can't wait for our next trip to check it all out. Detroit has a lot going for it. Definitely worth a visit.

[dfane]

He can "worship" and believe whatever the FUCK he wants, since this IS a free country, a concept you must find repugnant since you are espousing fascist ideology. Detroit goes as the Big Three go, so it really is corporate America that screwed over Detroit.

Oh I am a fascist because I dont believe the government is the answer to all of our problems usually the opposite.

Everyone blames the big 3 but nobody blames the Unions and pension plans etc which the competition doesnt have to deal with.
Nobody blames the local government and the population of the city that is in ruins. It is all Dick Cheneys fault I guess.

So if I am a facsist that must make you a commie

[Policy Wonk]

Fourth, I would attempt to convert Michigan into a right-to-work state like Arizona (if it is not already like that). Making the state more attractive to businesses is a key component of this plan.

That will NEVER happen, the unions are too strong.

[NewYorkYankee]

:previous: This reply goes to Philly Nation

Philly, you've brought this up in several threads, and I wanted to give you answer on to why that is...

You see, the south is very tax/conservative friendly. So the naturally consevative media is going to paint the South in a nice light. They want the South to succeed as it works for them (Low Tax/ Socially conservative). People like the WSJ and Forbes couldn't give two shits weither the schools are bad or the whole inner-city section is a mini-Mogadishu. Those things don't factor into the daily life of a CEO and therefore aren't considered. All the buisness and lifestyle mags see are nicely manicured subrubs free of dirt, poverty and "undesireables", becuase that's what their viewership can afford to take in. The average joe doesn't care about poor people or civil rights, and therefore places like the south that forgoe that for cheapness and sprawl will win the media argument. Only NYC escpaes this image becuase since the big networks are right there, and see how wonderful the city is, they can give it a pass. If NBC moved to Philly, the same might apply.


Media controls the power. Money controls the media. Money doesn't like high-tax, social justice and progressive attitudes of the North. Case closed.

[LMich]

That will NEVER happen, the unions are too strong.

That, and even many non-union members recognize the right for workers to organize if even they don't agree with all of their decisions. Let us not forget that not one Great Lakes state, nor any Northeasatern state is right-to-work. A huge lobby from outside of the region with money to burn for months would have to prep Michigan (and every other Great Lakes and Northeastern state) for years for any of these states even considering going right-to-work.

But, at the end of the day, organized labor is no more killing Michigan, than it's helping more-than-healthy Minneasota. Conservatives loved to make unions the whipping boy and give them much more credit (for bad things) than they deserve. We need to recognize, again, that certain states and regions are at different stages of maturity, and that as underdeveloped states grow up, they aren't going to be right-to-work, forever.

[ginsan2]

That will NEVER happen, the unions are too strong.

They're strong-ish at the moment, but their general uselessness and backwater stupidity will bite them in the ass soon. Unions are simply a primitive notion that has run its course-- as a cursory look at the Big Three's troubles will reveal. It's all a part of this bizarre time-loop that enveloped the midwest in the 60's and doesn't seem to have gone away :shrug:

[NewYorkYankee]

That, and even many non-union members recognize the right for workers to organize if even they don't agree with all of their decisions. Let us not forget that not one Great Lakes state, nor any Northeasatern state is right-to-work. A huge lobby from outside of the region with money to burn for months would have to prep Michigan (and every other Great Lakes and Northeastern state) for years for any of these states even considering going right-to-work.

But, at the end of the day, organized labor is no more killing Michigan, than it's helping more-than-healthy Minneasota. Conservatives loved to make unions the whipping boy and give them much more credit (for bad things) than they deserve. We need to recognize, again, that certain states and regions are at different stages of maturity, and that as underdeveloped states grow up, they aren't going to be right-to-work, forever.


However, It should be noted that Unions were able to get a grip during the 30's when there was no real migrant flows, nor was there globalization (that was actually considered a threat back then). The economic conditions that existed during the rise of Labor are not at play anymore. Many people these days are lucky to find a job. Southerners know that. Not to mention the fact that the highly liberal policies of the Democratic machine will not play well with voters.

Detroit, to be honest, never played up it's urbanity. Yes, you posted the streetcars map, but let's be real here: Every city in this nation had streetcars. Some small towns had streetcars. When you look at the urban fabric of Detriot, as well as many Midwestern/Mid Atlantic industrial towns, the housing stock is low density enough to constitue a functioning sububran styloe atmosphere. So why would someone buy a house on 6 mile when they could get a urban loft in Toronto or Chicago, both only 2-3 hours away?


Here's some ideas I had:

-Establish a rail line between Chicago and Toronto that stops in Detroit. That way, both cities are within commuting distance.

-Market to middle class families.

-Zone for higher density

-Cut corporate taxes and make Detroit a corporate center.

[ginsan2]

However, It should be noted that Unions were able to get a grip during the 30's when there was no real migrant flows, nor was there globalization (that was actually considered a threat back then). The economic conditions that existed during the rise of Labor are not at play anymore. Many people these days are lucky to find a job. Southerners know that. Not to mention the fact that the highly liberal policies of the Democratic machine will not play well with voters.

Detroit, to be honest, never played up it's urbanity. Yes, you posted the streetcars map, but let's be real here: Every city in this nation had streetcars. Some small towns had streetcars. When you look at the urban fabric of Detriot, as well as many Midwestern/Mid Atlantic industrial towns, the housing stock is low density enough to constitue a functioning sububran styloe atmosphere. So why would someone buy a house on 6 mile when they could get a urban loft in Toronto or Chicago, both only 2-3 hours away?


Here's some ideas I had:

-Establish a rail line between Chicago and Toronto that stops in Detroit. That way, both cities are within commuting distance.

-Market to middle class families.

-Zone for higher density

-Cut corporate taxes and make Detroit a corporate center.
It's interesting you should say that. I think the people who first 'urbanized' Detroit are probably at fault (I know of no nicer way to say this) for the simple fact that they (being Polish, Irish, etc) just had completely different values. Detroit was never populated by "apartment people"; the first population waves really wanted to own their own land, so we have the endless miles of suburbia that we have today.

I'd be interested to see if the black population was in any way responsible for more construction along the lines of apartments and whatnot.

[HumanMachinery]

I think the point needs to be made that on a relative scale, Detroit isn't that different from other major cities. It is true that Detroit tends to be at the lower end of the spectrum, but there's not much of a difference between one end and the other. Cleveland has more people below the poverty line than Detroit, New York has more gang activity than Detroit, Washington has a higher murder rate than Detroit, Dallas has more petty crime than Detroit, Miami has worse schools than Detroit, Los Angeles has more homeless people than Detroit, etc.

The idea that Detroit is in a world of its own is silly. Every major city in the nation has problems. While Detroit does have many areas where the neighborhoods have been decimated by the flight of the middle-class, that is only a small portion of the city at large. The majority of Detroit neighborhoods are comparable to neighborhoods in any other major city.

In 2000, the city of Houston had a population of 1,954,848 in an area of 580 sq. mi. The poverty rate in Houston was about 20%. If you want to make a true comparison, Detroit and its inner-ring suburbs cover an area of 586 sq. mi. with a population of 2,678,532 people. The poverty rate in the comparable "Detroit" was only about 14%. If you want to make the reverse comparsion. In 2000, Houston's 610 loop which covers an area of about 100 sq. mi. had a population of 456,644. 1 in 4 residents in the 610 loop lived below the poverty line. In 2000, Detroit had a population of 951,270 in an area of 139 sq. mi. 1 in 4 residents in Detroit lived below the poverty line.

I don't think it's really fair to include Detroit's suburbs, but not Houston's. Detroit may be smaller than Houston, and part of this is due a handful of small towns which have splintered off from Detroit in the last century, while Detroit has been prohibited from annexing any surrounding land since the 1920s.

While downriver has traditionally been an unpleasant affair, many of Detroit's northern and western suburbs remain far more inhabitable to the middle class than the city proper. I wish it weren't so (I hate being a suburbanite), but them's the breaks.

[LMich]

However, It should be noted that Unions were able to get a grip during the 30's when there was no real migrant flows, nor was there globalization (that was actually considered a threat back then). The economic conditions that existed during the rise of Labor are not at play anymore. Many people these days are lucky to find a job. Southerners know that. Not to mention the fact that the highly liberal policies of the Democratic machine will not play well with voters.

Detroit, to be honest, never played up it's urbanity. Yes, you posted the streetcars map, but let's be real here: Every city in this nation had streetcars. Some small towns had streetcars. When you look at the urban fabric of Detriot, as well as many Midwestern/Mid Atlantic industrial towns, the housing stock is low density enough to constitue a functioning sububran styloe atmosphere. So why would someone buy a house on 6 mile when they could get a urban loft in Toronto or Chicago, both only 2-3 hours away?


Here's some ideas I had:

-Establish a rail line between Chicago and Toronto that stops in Detroit. That way, both cities are within commuting distance.

-Market to middle class families.

-Zone for higher density

-Cut corporate taxes and make Detroit a corporate center.

NewYorkYankee,

- Are you talking a high-speed line between Chicago and Toronto? Detroit already has rail service to Chicago on the Wolverine line of Amtrak, and with a quick Transit Windsor Tunnel bus, a VIA Rail Canada connection with Toronto. Still, I'm not sure how this really helps the city's situation more than it already does. There is regular traffic between all three, already, for commerce and pleasure.

- As for marketing to the middle class you don't think they've been trying to do that?

- As for zoning for higher density I'm sure they'd love to do that, but there really is little to no incentive outside of the immediate CBD without an effective, region-wide rapid transit rail system.

- Detroit's corporate tax rate on income tax %1.00, %1.25 non-resident rate, and %2.5 for residents. Do you think abolishing it, entirely, needs to be the rule? I'm not sure how successful that would be seeing as how the city is seeing less and less revenue every year, and its taxing what was until very recently and poorer and poorer residential population meaning less and less collection every year. The money has to come from somewhere, and if you have a segment of your population that doesn't even pay taxes (i.e. on government assistence) you're essentially shooting yourself in the foot.

It seems that the city's problems are largely with education (i.e. keeping primary (Detroit Public Schools) and graduate students) and with the local economy. People have shown time and time again they'll put up with terrible crime and/or poor public schools (i.e. Dallas, Atlanta, ect...) if the jobs are there. Detroit put all of its eggs into one basket, and it's really hard to say after the fact 'we need to diversify'. If you don't diversify as you're old-school economy is on its way out, it's very painful to try and do it after the fact.

The city's de-industrialization is only unusual in that its entire metropolitan area completely fractured into waring factions when the high-paying, lower-skilled manufacturing jobs began to dry up. This is in contrast to other metro areas, that if even highly reluctantly, realized the importance of a relatively centralized economy and worked to keep their central cities from complete economic collapse. What seems to have happened in Metro Detroit was instead of people coming together in the economic storm, everyone jumped ship and robbed the boat, city residents and future suburbanites, alike, taking everything they could with them.

I don't think it's really fair to include Detroit's suburbs, but not Houston's. Detroit may be smaller than Houston, and part of this is due a handful of small towns which have splintered off from Detroit in the last century, while Detroit has been prohibited from annexing any surrounding land since the 1920s.

While downriver has traditionally been an unpleasant affair, many of Detroit's northern and western suburbs remain far more inhabitable to the middle class than the city proper. I wish it weren't so (I hate being a suburbanite), but them's the breaks.

Human Machinery,

No, he was comparing the two because of the two's disproportionate size. Houston was allowed to annex a lot of its suburbs (or even empty areas), Detroit wasn't. What he's simply doing is comparing the size of Detroit if it were as large as Houston. Anyway, a better way would probably compare the two Urbanized Areas, but I really don't care.

BTW, Hudkina lives in Downriver. :) You're going to get an earful, and deservedly so. lol

[blockski]

Quite honestly, what Detroit needs right away is receivership. Right now, it's a high tax/low service city. The City's fiscal house is a mess. It's time to wipe the slate clean and reorganize.

Now, this would be very unpopular with a lot of Detroiters and other entrenched interests, and I find it unlikely that a Democrat governor would appoint an receiver and risk alienating a strong Democratic base. However, that's got to be the first step.

[hudkina]

I don't think it's really fair to include Detroit's suburbs, but not Houston's. Detroit may be smaller than Houston, and part of this is due a handful of small towns which have splintered off from Detroit in the last century, while Detroit has been prohibited from annexing any surrounding land since the 1920s.

While downriver has traditionally been an unpleasant affair, many of Detroit's northern and western suburbs remain far more inhabitable to the middle class than the city proper. I wish it weren't so (I hate being a suburbanite), but them's the breaks.

How so? If Detroit had been able to annex nearly 600 sq. mi. of land, places like Hamtramck, Dearborn, Ferndale, and Royal Oak would be neighborhoods of Detroit and not suburbs. Southfield would be a centrally located neighborhood and Troy would be an office park on the city's north end. And if you want, we can compare Harris County to the Tri-County area. In 2000, Harris County had 3,400,578 people in 1,728 sq. mi. Detroit's Tri-County area had 4,043,467 people in 1,967 sq. mi. Harris County had a poverty rate of 17.6%, the Tri-County area had a poverty rate of 12.5%. But what does that prove? Nothing. It's a statistical abstract.

BTW, what exactly makes Downriver an unpleasant affair? The crime rate is low, the poverty rate is low, and three (Grosse Ile, Trenton, and Riverview) of the metros top ten school districts are located there. But then, statistics don't really matter, do they? Downriver is terrible because people say Downriver is terrible.

[NewYorkYankee]

:previous: To Lmich.

Yes, I realize that there is "transit" between Chicago and Toronto through Detriot. But I'm talking about a true regional connector. I invison an Acela like service Between Chicago and Toronto as well as possibly using VIA tracks to swing over to Buffalo and use the Empire Corridor to NYC. (Chi-NY would be a separate line of course). The reason this is importaint is that the simple fact remains: Detroit lacks a healthy job base. Until the outside world sees something in the city that convinces them to come here, buisnesses will stay away, and so will residents. Marketing to residents first helps to boost the city's image. In fact, when Goldman Sachs threatend to leave Manhattan, the Investment bankers threw such a fit that the Jersey City tower they had just built is now empty and Goldman is building a new headquarters on Water Street. That's the type of pull a good city for residents can bring.



When I mean market to middle class, I'm talking about what Baltimore has been doing, with great success, since the mid 90s. As Washington started to get gentrified and the prices reached into the stratosphere, Blatimore convinced many young families and professionals to move there due to the incredibly low cost of housing. The result is when you look at the Blatimore threads, it's all about new construction. Detroit has Greektown, Casinos, A great rock scene and lots of factories that could make great art/start-up space. Many areas in Baltimore benefited from this program. And before you chime in with the "but Detroit is so bad" meme, keep in mind that Baltimore is world-famous for it's powerful drug trade and hardcore poverty. Any city that could host The Wire and still be a success has to be doing something right.

As for schools, we have to be real with ourselves: Middle-class people will not send their kids to a school that is predomiently Black and poor. As you very well noted, most Middle-class AAs won't do it, nevermind others. Even if DPS had the highest scores in the state, people are not going to send their kids there. Magnet schools and Charters are the only way forward for now.

I think Detroit can come back. I really do believe it offers something quite unique to America in it's industrial yet quite suburban atmostphere. More multi family hosuing should be the goal. I think one idea should be to clear out heavily abandoned neighborhoods and start over. Concentrate the popualtion on corridors as to effectivley provide services.

[starvinggryphon]

Wow, what amazing ruins! Reminds me of Castlevania but with a little less undead. Are there many homeless there or is the area fenced off?

[LMich]

:previous: To Lmich.

Yes, I realize that there is "transit" between Chicago and Toronto through Detriot. But I'm talking about a true regional connector. I invison an Acela like service Between Chicago and Toronto as well as possibly using VIA tracks to swing over to Buffalo and use the Empire Corridor to NYC. (Chi-NY would be a separate line of course). The reason this is importaint is that the simple fact remains: Detroit lacks a healthy job base. Until the outside world sees something in the city that convinces them to come here, buisnesses will stay away, and so will residents. Marketing to residents first helps to boost the city's image. In fact, when Goldman Sachs threatend to leave Manhattan, the Investment bankers threw such a fit that the Jersey City tower they had just built is now empty and Goldman is building a new headquarters on Water Street. That's the type of pull a good city for residents can bring.

I'm still so confused. Yes, Detroit does lack a healthy jobs base, but how is that connected to this train you're proposing? You're acting as if Toronto doesn't know that Metro Detroit exists, or that Torontonian's don't come down to Detroit and vice-versa. I'm not sure you realize the regions and its current connections. Ontario is Michigan's largest trading partner, and the Metro Detroit is the nations busiest border crossing with Canada. Heck, besides the trade and commerce between the two, culturally, Detroit-Windsor often market themselves as a "Two Nation Vacation" and share an independence day celebration on the river. I guess things can always be improved, but I'm having a hard time seeing too many more places where the two can be connected.

:When I mean market to middle class, I'm talking about what Baltimore has been doing, with great success, since the mid 90s. As Washington started to get gentrified and the prices reached into the stratosphere, Blatimore convinced many young families and professionals to move there due to the incredibly low cost of housing. The result is when you look at the Blatimore threads, it's all about new construction. Detroit has Greektown, Casinos, A great rock scene and lots of factories that could make great art/start-up space. Many areas in Baltimore benefited from this program. And before you chime in with the "but Detroit is so bad" meme, keep in mind that Baltimore is world-famous for it's powerful drug trade and hardcore poverty. Any city that could host The Wire and still be a success has to be doing something right.

I think you just showed why the comparison is so poor: It is Baltimore's proximity to Washington that even allowed it to funnel off some of the attracted middle-class families in the first place. Detroit doesn't have a "Washington",nearby. But at the same time, it's not exactly as if Metro Detroit was having problems attracting families for many years. They simply never considered Detroit as an option, period. Though Detroit doesn't have a Washington, it does have +1 million high-income Oakland County, so I'm not sure it's even a lack of incoming middle-class residents that's the issue. The issue is that they are told or already believe that Detroit should not be an option.

:As for schools, we have to be real with ourselves: Middle-class people will not send their kids to a school that is predomiently Black and poor. As you very well noted, most Middle-class AAs won't do it, nevermind others. Even if DPS had the highest scores in the state, people are not going to send their kids there. Magnet schools and Charters are the only way forward for now.

I don't think we disagree, at all, here, which is exactly why I said that middle-class families are willing to put up with horrible schools systems and crime if there are jobs to offset some of this. One doesn't have to look any further than a city like Dallas or Atlanta. You're right, middle class families routinely send their kids to charter and private schools regardless of the state of the public school district in the center city, so the state of the public school system isn't even considered, often.

[hoosier]

Hoosier, keep an eye on your local media in the next couple of days. Tomorrow, Wednesday, there will be a conference in Indianapolis attended by representitives from the "Rust Belt" states discussing a new concept called, "THE NORTH COAST". The North Coast promotes the economic uniqueness found in the states surrounding the Great Lakes and how we have a lot of assets that are envied by other places, particularly the left and right coasts of the USA...which are typically the global front doors to the rest of the country.

I'd be interested if you find anything in the Indianapolis media that mentions this, and if you would post it maybe in the Midwest forum. A lot of it is being led by Detroit area names who will be traveling to Indy for the conference.

Thanks for the heads up. I have seen ZERO coverage of this conference in the Indianapolis Star thus far.