[zeno333]

The first building to be built in downtown Orlandos "builidng boom" has taken a hit. The mega movie theater that was to cover almost the entire 2nd floor will not come to be...the theater canceled the deal. :( :(

[ocman]

I thought Orlando Bloom was wounded.

[Alliance]

ARGH. One building is not a boom.

...well, maybe for Orlando it is :haha:

[verictson]

I was in Orlando recently and although downtown was pretty dead, I saw alot of new buildings and others being built...

[J. Will]

Second floor of what?

[Crawford]

Maybe because people don't move to Orlando to go to downtown movie theatres. They move to get away from traditional cities and regular global living patterns, because they want to get a bigger home for the buck.

They go because of the rampant sprawl, brought on by little regulation. This framework encourages cheap home prices and strong (albiet low wage) job creation. At some point, I think energy prices will make such wasteful living impossible for all but the rich. This will of course affect all major metropolitan areas, but it will especially hurt cities like Orlando and Vegas.

[brickell]

So much Orlando hate. . .

It has a pretty lively downtown by Florida standards and they were in the middle of a sizable condo boom, going from almost no downtown condos 10 years ago to big ones.

this is the building in question -
http://www.solaireattheplaza.com/html/overview.html
and -
http://www.plazaorlando.com/

[RocTX]

I lived in Orlando for a little while in the early '90's, but I haven't been back downtown since then. At the time, I thought downtown Orlando was quite lively for a city its size. I seem to remember that the area around Church Street Station had quite a bit of nightlife. Is that still the case?

[Crawford]

But the point is that people don't move to Orlando to go to a traditional downtown, pay for parking, walk past the homeless, etc.

Isn't the point of moving to Orlando to find cheap(er) homes and plentiful suburban jobs and to get away from traditional living patterns?

[RocTX]

But the point is that people don't move to Orlando to go to a traditional downtown, pay for parking, walk past the homeless, etc.

Isn't the point of moving to Orlando to find cheap(er) homes and plentiful suburban jobs and to get away from traditional living patterns?

I guess.... I can only speak for myself, but I moved there because that's where the people who were paying me at the time wanted me to be.

[brickell]

But the point is that people don't move to Orlando to go to a traditional downtown, pay for parking, walk past the homeless, etc.

Isn't the point of moving to Orlando to find cheap(er) homes and plentiful suburban jobs and to get away from traditional living patterns?


You can do that in most any state in the union. What makes Orlando unique in that sense? Regardless they are undergoing their own downtown redevelopment and boom with condos popping up around Lake Eola and close in neighborhoods gentrifying like everywhere else. People are moving downtown, people do go downtown for the bars and nightlife, why wouldn't they go for a movie theater?

[RocTX]

There are probably a few people who have the luxury to move around based solely on quality of life issues, but I think more people tend to move for economic reasons, especially job- or industry-related. I mean, if you work in hospitality or tourism, a place like Orlando or Vegas is the place to be regardless of how you feel about urban development issues. That's just like here in Houston, where a large number of people work in the petroleum industry. If you work in those types of jobs, this is where you come.

[urbanpln]

Maybe because people don't move to Orlando to go to downtown movie theatres. They move to get away from traditional cities and regular global living patterns, because they want to get a bigger home for the buck.

They go because of the rampant sprawl, brought on by little regulation. This framework encourages cheap home prices and strong (albiet low wage) job creation. At some point, I think energy prices will make such wasteful living impossible for all but the rich. This will of course affect all major metropolitan areas, but it will especially hurt cities like Orlando and Vegas.

Like many of you on this forum and a resident of Chicago, I want more people to like traditional cities, but most people I know, especially in my office want to move to cities like Orlando and Las Vegas because of the bigger homes and lawns. I believe most Americans will always, at least for a long time, dire for this type of lifestyle. I don't see this cities declining anytime soon.

[JMininger]

Maybe because people don't move to Orlando to go to downtown movie theatres. They move to get away from traditional cities and regular global living patterns, because they want to get a bigger home for the buck.

They go because of the rampant sprawl, brought on by little regulation. This framework encourages cheap home prices and strong (albiet low wage) job creation. At some point, I think energy prices will make such wasteful living impossible for all but the rich. This will of course affect all major metropolitan areas, but it will especially hurt cities like Orlando and Vegas.

I agree with you that people don't move to Orlando because they are attracted to downtown.

But dude, really, I love dense, urban, diverse 'traditional' cities but it looks like you are just taking an opportunity to slam car-centric cities. The fact is that most cities in the US are now like this (not just Orlando and Vegas) and are not like 'traditional' cities.

What people really want to do is move to places with expensive housing and low job creation.

[alex1]

orlando certainly did not have a "lively" downtown last time I was there in 2002. Not many cities do.

it had a small collection of bars and clubs and Church St. Station which was a sort of an entertainment mall.

[Cambridgite]

Orlando is good for its theme parks and its climate. But otherwise, I found the city itself to be a real letdown. It's an overhyped tourist trap and when you're stuck in relentless gridlock on International Blvd or the I-4, you drive past all the tackyness and hotels and come to the realization that you're in a city with no culture and no soul. Perhaps my perspective is different as a tourist and I'm not viewing it in the same light as a permanent resident would. Nevertheless, I don't plan on going back again.

So apparently I did go to downtown Orlando in 2000. From what I recall, it also felt like a tourist trap. I didn't even think at first that it was the real downtown of Orlando until my parents (I was 13) told me it was. It just seems that wherever you go, you're never in a real, authentic city.

[RocTX]

orlando certainly did not have a "lively" downtown last time I was there in 2002. Not many cities do.

it had a small collection of bars and clubs and Church St. Station which was a sort of an entertainment mall.

It was certainly not active compared to cities like NY or Chicago, but for a largely suburban metro area of about 900,000 at the time, it certainly had a lot more going on than I would have expected. However, a lot of things could have changed between 1993 when I was last there and 2002 when you were there.

I guess I should clarify, because, believe me, I'm not saying it was some great urban mecca or that it wasn't touristy. I'm only pointing out that it seemed at the time to have more going on than the downtowns of some other cities about the same size. My hometown of Rochester, for example.

[JMininger]

Orlando is good for its theme parks and its climate. But otherwise, I found the city itself to be a real letdown. It's an overhyped tourist trap and when you're stuck in relentless gridlock on International Blvd or the I-4, you drive past all the tackyness and hotels and come to the realization that you're in a city with no culture and no soul. Perhaps my perspective is different as a tourist and I'm not viewing it in the same light as a permanent resident would. Nevertheless, I don't plan on going back again.

So apparently I did go to downtown Orlando in 2000. From what I recall, it also felt like a tourist trap. I didn't even think at first that it was the real downtown of Orlando until my parents (I was 13) told me it was. It just seems that wherever you go, you're never in a real, authentic city.

I don't really like downtown Orlando but I wouldn't call it a tourist trap. Keep in mind, I'm not from Orlando and I've only visited a few times but I pretty much like to explore as much as I can in my free time in any city I go to. Like may southern cities, downtown Orlando doesn't seem to be very active, particularly at night except right at the fringes where you start to get into the neighborhoods. Many of the neighborhoods just outside of downtown Orlando are fairly seedy and dangerous ... not much different from most cities. Condo development is a positive and hopefully will at some point give downtown some traction to attract something like a mega movie theater. But right now that would seem premature, especially in a city with so many other entertainment options, mostly located outside of the city. Also, I think people need a reason to live downtown, perhaps simply to be close to work ... but there doesn't seem to be significant employment downtown. Maybe people prefer high-rise maintenance free living ... but there are so many high-rise condos under construction just outside of the city that there would seem to be endless options.

[alex1]

RocTx, I don't think that downtown Orlando is touristy in the least. On the contrary, it's a center trying to find its place in the metro dominated by a cartoon mouse.

in that regard, it's refreshing. Not urban, nor dynamic but at least you're not dealing with the tourist set.

[liat91]

Where are you getting this information? From what I have been able to research, they are still definitely still trying to find a company to take over the space, and this info is as recent as 9/7. Please confirm...

[RocTX]

RocTx, I don't think that downtown Orlando is touristy in the least. On the contrary, it's a center trying to find its place in the metro dominated by a cartoon mouse.

in that regard, it's refreshing. Not urban, nor dynamic but at least you're not dealing with the tourist set.

You're probably right. I mean, last time I was there, "Marky Mark and the Funky Bunch" was still gettin' play time. :yuck:

[zeno333]

Where are you getting this information? From what I have been able to research, they are still definitely still trying to find a company to take over the space, and this info is as recent as 9/7. Please confirm...

the news about the theater deal going bad was on the local orlando TV news.

i have no idea one way or the other about alternet plans for the space

[zeno333]

ARGH. One building is not a boom.

...well, maybe for Orlando it is :haha:

Its the "first" builidng of many more that later were started.

[BTinSF]

At some point, I think energy prices will make such wasteful living impossible for all but the rich. This will of course affect all major metropolitan areas, but it will especially hurt cities like Orlando and Vegas.

Ironically, averaged over the year, energy costs in warm climates may be lower than in the northeast. I lived in Florida for 10 years, 4 near Orlando (Winter Park). I ran the A/C hard from May to October but hardly needed heating or cooling the rest of the year. Growing up in the Mid-Atlantic, the summers were nearly as hot if not as long and there was this thing called winter . . . .

[JMininger]

Ironically, averaged over the year, energy costs in warm climates may be lower than in the northeast. I lived in Florida for 10 years, 4 near Orlando (Winter Park). I ran the A/C hard from May to October but hardly needed heating or cooling the rest of the year. Growing up in the Mid-Atlantic, the summers were nearly as hot if not as long and there was this thing called winter . . . .

I think he was talking about cars specifically but I'll bite. I don't know about this statement. I lived in Dallas (long hot summers) for 8 years and then moved to Indianapolis (long cold winters) about 7 years ago. My house in Indy is about 1/3 bigger than my house in Dallas, maybe more. Both had electric A/C and gas heat. My house in Dallas had large shade trees over the house (yes, in Dallas). My house in Indy does not. Trying to take cost out of the equation (different rates), I used significantly more energy in my Dallas house than my Indy house even though my house in Indy is far larger. The bills I had in Dallas during the summer were outrageous and yet in winter, the heating bills were next to nothing ... and yes, it does get cold in Dallas ... just not as long and as FREAKING cold as it gets in Indy. Indy's summers are warm but not nearly as long and hot as Dallas. So basically, what I'm saying is it costs me far more to cool a house than heat a house.

Orlando may be a little different, it generally does not get as hot as Dallas in the summer nor as cool as Dallas in the winter. Las Vegas is a bit more like Dallas in that regard and less like Orlando.

Anyway, back to topic.

[PhillyRising]

Ironically, averaged over the year, energy costs in warm climates may be lower than in the northeast. I lived in Florida for 10 years, 4 near Orlando (Winter Park). I ran the A/C hard from May to October but hardly needed heating or cooling the rest of the year. Growing up in the Mid-Atlantic, the summers were nearly as hot if not as long and there was this thing called winter . . . .

The ulility rates are lower down south...because the government subsidized so much of the infrastructure (TVA anyone) while us slobs up north are at the mercy of our utility companies who put the screw to us. It's high time we live off the feds up here and get some cheap goodies!

[brickell]

Wow, really scraping the bottom of the barrel with that one. From what I can find Florida Power and Light is pretty average in terms of rates. That Philly has one of the highest has little to do with Florida or Orlando. Is this going to stay on topic or is this going to turn into another south bashing thread?

[bobdreamz]

Orlando is good for its theme parks and its climate. But otherwise, I found the city itself to be a real letdown. It's an overhyped tourist trap and when you're stuck in relentless gridlock on International Blvd or the I-4, you drive past all the tackyness and hotels and come to the realization that you're in a city with no culture and no soul. Perhaps my perspective is different as a tourist and I'm not viewing it in the same light as a permanent resident would. Nevertheless, I don't plan on going back again.

So apparently I did go to downtown Orlando in 2000. From what I recall, it also felt like a tourist trap. I didn't even think at first that it was the real downtown of Orlando until my parents (I was 13) told me it was. It just seems that wherever you go, you're never in a real, authentic city.

Your perspective as a tourist is no different than mine as a resident of Orlando since 2005. This city has no soul or culture...it is bland beyond belief.
Outside of downtown it is nothing more than miles of strip malls full of Applebees, McDonald's, gas stations, and suburbs without sidewalks.

[bryson662001]

Acording to the website the theater opens on labor Day. Is it just not updated yet? Nice looking project btw.

[liat91]

:previous: could you provide a link please?Kuhn's legal troubles multiply
Days after the downtown developer sues a partner, he faces lawsuits and a foreclosure threat.

Jerry W. Jackson | Sentinel Staff Writer
August 9, 2007
Article Tools
E-mail Print Single page view Reprints Reader feedback text size: Orlando developer Cameron Kuhn's legal skirmishes have widened on several fronts, with the lawyer for one of Kuhn's development partners filing suit Wednesday in Orlando moments before state Circuit Court closed for the day.

Minnesota real estate investor Frank Vennes Jr. alleged in three separate filings that Kuhn defaulted on a $2 million promissory note and failed to pay more than $11 million for interests in two limited-liability companies that owned property.

One property is a parking garage for the SunTrust Tower in Jacksonville, part of a downtown project there called RiverWatch. The other is an older office building, known as the Duncan Building, at 34 E. Pine St. in downtown Orlando.



The lawsuits were filed two days after Kuhn, who has major downtown projects under way in Orlando and Jacksonville, sued Vennes in Circuit Court, alleging that Vennes was using threats of a "smear campaign" to try to gain control of Kuhn's various Orlando properties.

Kuhn said he had tried to work out financial disagreements with Vennes and filed suit as a last resort to move the dispute into court, where allegations would have to be made under oath.

While he did not go into detail, Kuhn also alleged that Vennes had political and personal reasons for using strong-arm tactics. He said Vennes, who has a home in Palm Beach County as well as in Minnesota, is a well-known donor to Republican Party candidates and objected to Kuhn's activities on behalf of Democrats. He also alleged that Vennes had tried unsuccessfully to "convert" him to "fundamentalist Christianity."

Tucker Byrd, an Orlando lawyer with the Greenberg Traurig law firm representing Vennes, said Wednesday that he had just obtained copies of the two suits filed by Kuhn and had not had time to analyze them and prepare a public response.

"We will have to review the complaints," he said. But Byrd, a veteran commercial litigator, vowed that he is eager to "provide some context."

Meanwhile, a $5.4 million lien against part of Kuhn's sprawling but largely empty downtown Orlando development called The Plaza still has not been paid since May, and the contractor, Brasfield & Gorrie, recently filed to foreclose.

Kuhn had sued B&G, alleging that the company overbilled him and did not complete some of its work in a timely manner. The Plaza is the largest redevelopment project in downtown Orlando history -- a three-tower, mixed-use project on Orange Avenue, the main north-south artery through downtown.

Two of the towers are retail and office condominiums -- office space that is sold rather than leased -- and one of the towers is a residential condominium called The Solaire. The residential condo is not included in the Brassfield & Gorrie dispute.



Just to ad, this might explain some of the hupla, dates just 2 days ago.