[EdinVan]

:previous: Why do you think i am always pushing for more LED screens and tower lights.

I applaud your enthusiasm and advocacy. Yes, we really do need more LED screens and such to enliven the streets at night.

For my part, I've been emailing property owners of prominent buildings (eg, The Electra) to once again turn on some of their lights. Some have appreciated my messages and have complied. Others (the majority) have told me that neighbouring condo owners are insistent that all lights be turned off at night. This just amazes me. Vancouver is the only city in which commercial property owners roll over and let residential owners tell them what to do.

I really do agree with you --- you can't live downtown and except everything to be the way it is in suburbia. You can't have it both ways.

[eduardo88]

^^ they switched on the lights because you emailed them...?

[TwoFace]

This just amazes me. Vancouver is the only city in which commercial property owners roll over and let residential owners tell them what to do.


You may have slept through what has been going on the last couple of years, such as: think green, carbon footprint, energy conservation, reduce waste, etc.
Not to mention that the corporate entities that own office towers are saving hundreds of thousands of dollars in Hydro fees each year.

[phesto]

As far as signage on top of Vancouver office buildings, owners aren't turning them off at night to save power (at least none that I know of).

Tenants pay big money as part of their lease to get a sign up there - I'm sure the energy required to light them is relatively little compared to other energy saving measures the tenant and building owner can take.

[SpongeG]

there just aren't that many big offices

lol

my friends when we drove past shangra la thought the lobby looked really asian tacky

[TwoFace]

As far as signage on top of Vancouver office buildings, owners aren't turning them off at night to save power (at least none that I know of).

Tenants pay big money as part of their lease to get a sign up there - I'm sure the energy required to light them is relatively little compared to other energy saving measures the tenant and building owner can take.

I agree, "Corporate Name" or other type of advertising signage should be on all the time.
I was referring to every office and hallway light bulb being on 24/7 in an office skyscraper.

[officedweller]

The lights in TD Tower are on timers - janitorial staff are around during the evening and the timers shut the lights off at midnight - and again at 2:00 am if workers turn them on after midnight.

[city-dweller]

Now I have the correct thread....

On saturday, I went by SL to check out the lower development. The urban fairSL is fully stocked with non-perishibles (spl?) The side door was open so I 'accidently' took a look inside. Its going to be great! I talked to an UF employee setting up stuff (not sure what). Says SL location opens sometime this month (november). As for the exterior, I am not a huge fan of bamboo. I know it is part of the SL Asian theme, but doesn't at all fit west coast. And it is one of the most pervasive invasive species. They have to burn it to the root to truely get rid of it. That said, downtown should make that issue irrelevant. The landscaping looks impressive though. The grade at which the banks follow either side of the stairs on either side of the building, took a lot of what looks like dirt-bags (like sand bags but dirt). Couldn't sneak up the stairs to take a look at what I think is the spa entrance?

[SpongeG]

theres two kinds of bamboo though - one is really bad and the other doesn't spread as much which is usually used around here

[squeezied]

just a request here:

would anyone be generous enough to take a few shots of SL? i'm dying to see what the interior looks like. school's been a drag so i haven't really had the time to "tour" around.

[EdinVan]

^^ they switched on the lights because you emailed them...?

Some did, yes (in most cases, the issue was more that signage lightbulbs were burnt out and nobody was aware of it).

[EdinVan]

You may have slept through what has been going on the last couple of years, such as: think green, carbon footprint, energy conservation, reduce waste, etc.
Not to mention that the corporate entities that own office towers are saving hundreds of thousands of dollars in Hydro fees each year.

Yes, I've slept through the last couple of years.

I was referring to building signage, not the main lighting.

[EdinVan]

my friends when we drove past shangra la thought the lobby looked really asian tacky

I had to take a Gravol when I walked by it the other day.

But if they're planning on catering to an Asian clientele, then I guess it will be pleasing to certain people. Let's just pray we get a W Hotel soon to temper the tackiness.

[osirisboy]

really? i like it and im not even asian

[rather_draconian]

What do you mean by Asian tacky?

Like a contrived grand thing i.e. chandeliers, pianos, and grand staircases?
Or are you talking about Chinese restaurant decor?

Please describe.

[officedweller]

Or are you talking about Chinese restaurant decor?

I think Chinese restuarnt decor (i.e. Hon's pink and black) is more Asian utilitarian.

[duener]

I'm not sure if this was mentioned already... but didn't the Asian tycoon (can't remember who) funding this originally want a tacky neo-classical tower? The sort of thing you would find in Bangkok. But then Ian Gillespie convinced him to go for a modern design instead. I thought I read that somewhere.

[officedweller]

Doubt it. I think Peterson Developments built the Carmanah Plaza next door and it's typical glass curtain wall.

[jlousa]

Officedweller is correct.

Also not sure if it's been posted, Urban Fare opens on the 15th.

[SpongeG]

global TV is doing some big coverage of the urban fare opening - they have been advertising it all week

[Yume-sama]

I'm surprised, there are no condos from Shangri-la currently listed on MLS. Considering owners have taken possession... does this mean people are actually LIVING in them? They would have made an absolute KILLING by now, if they were to sell. I mean, a $300,000 unit is now worth $900,000 - $1 million. But yes, I wanted to see pictures, and I am now disappointed. You people hurry up and start selling :P

[mezzanine]

What do you mean by Asian tacky?

Like a contrived grand thing i.e. chandeliers, pianos, and grand staircases?
Or are you talking about Chinese restaurant decor?

Please describe.

It's the chandeliers. Several very large liberace-esque chandeliers in the main lobby installed so far. it reeeealy doesn't match, especially for a modern, sleek building.

[SpongeG]

Shangri-La Hotel in Vancouver to Leverage Nortel Technology

Shangri-La Hotels and Resorts will open its first hotels in North America when it opens in Vancouver in January with technology including Unified Communications from Nortel.

The 119-room hotel, located in a new building in Vancouver, will feature access to personalized services - from messaging and mobility to room service and reservations - using Nortel technology but without allowing technology to intrude.

Nortel and channel partner Telus will provide Nortel Unified Communications technology to integrate voice, data and mobility services. This means staff will be reachable and available anywhere in the hotel at any time, allowing them to receive and respond to every guest request on a timely basis.

"Enhancing the guest experience is our top priority, and having staff reachable anywhere in the hotel at any time through intuitive, easy-to-use technology is a key part of our strategy," said Stephen Darling, regional vice president and general manager, Shangri-La Hotel Vancouver. "We have confidence that Nortel's solution will play an important role in helping us deliver both guest and employee satisfaction."

"Nortel is helping Shangri-La Hotel Vancouver create a unique retreat from a busy, frantic, hyperconnected world," said Joel Hackney, president, Enterprise Solutions, Nortel. "The real challenge is to do this without losing the benefits of being connected. That's a tall order, but Shangri-La trusts that we're up to the challenge."

The unified communications solution for Shangri-La Vancouver will include Nortel's Communication Server 1000, Ethernet Routing Switch 5500 Series and 4500 Series, Hospitality Messaging Server 400, Contact Center 6.0, Wireless LAN 2300 Series and a variety of fixed and mobile IP phones.

http://www.tradingmarkets.com/.site/news/Stock%20News/2007367/

[Yume-sama]

So, pretty much they're giving all the staff walkie talkies. :P

[thefly]

I'm surprised, there are no condos from Shangri-la currently listed on MLS. Considering owners have taken possession... does this mean people are actually LIVING in them? They would have made an absolute KILLING by now, if they were to sell. I mean, a $300,000 unit is now worth $900,000 - $1 million. But yes, I wanted to see pictures, and I am now disappointed. You people hurry up and start selling :P

Titles only went up in the LTO on the 6th, so that would be the earliest closing date possible.

[duener]

I'm surprised, there are no condos from Shangri-la currently listed on MLS. Considering owners have taken possession... does this mean people are actually LIVING in them? They would have made an absolute KILLING by now, if they were to sell. I mean, a $300,000 unit is now worth $900,000 - $1 million. But yes, I wanted to see pictures, and I am now disappointed. You people hurry up and start selling :P

Check out the units up for rent on Craigslist with photos like this:
http://vancouver.en.craigslist.ca/apa/912024706.html

It's interesting to note that a nice luxury 600 sf suite like this would rent for $1900 /mo. Plug $400K purchase price into MLS mortgage calculator with 5% down and the monthly mortgage payment is $3000. An investor would lose $1100 /mo. So realistically, as an investment, these condos are worth $220 - 250K not $900K+.

Fortunately Vancouver real estate prices are dropping like never before, making these little shoe boxes in the sky soon affordable for everyone. :cheers:

[eduardo88]

omg, i'm so amazed at how cheap vancouver actually is....5000 a month for a 2 bed 3 bath, 1500 sq foot flat in this building...that's what i'm paying for my flat here in london and we don't have the hotel ammenities...not fair :( why can't london be as cheap

[mrjauk]

omg, i'm so amazed at how cheap vancouver actually is....5000 a month for a 2 bed 3 bath, 1500 sq foot flat in this building...that's what i'm paying for my flat here in london and we don't have the hotel ammenities...not fair :( why can't london be as cheap

Look, Vancouver is not the crap-hole that many make it out to be, but it's also not London, New York, or Paris. I think both the boosters ("greatest place in the world") and the detractors ought to get their heads out of their rear-ends and step back and make a realistic comparison of Vancouver with other cities.

In a recent issue of foreign policy magazine, Vancouver does not even make a list of the world's 60 Global Cities Index. http://www.foreignpolicy.com/story/cms.php?story_id=4509&page=1

I'm someone who loves this city, but has travelled and lived in enough places around the world to understand the city's advantages and disadvantages compared to other cities.

[Yume-sama]

Check out the units up for rent on Craigslist with photos like this:
http://vancouver.en.craigslist.ca/apa/912024706.html

It's interesting to note that a nice luxury 600 sf suite like this would rent for $1900 /mo. Plug $400K purchase price into MLS mortgage calculator with 5% down and the monthly mortgage payment is $3000. An investor would lose $1100 /mo. So realistically, as an investment, these condos are worth $220 - 250K not $900K+.

Fortunately Vancouver real estate prices are dropping like never before, making these little shoe boxes in the sky soon affordable for everyone. :cheers:

Investors usually don't carry a mortgage (never met one, anyways... not a smart business plan), or have to borrow money for anything. A huge percentage won't even rent out the unit, either.

Your average Joe who would need a mortgage is not plunking down millions of $$ for investment units they have no intention of living in.

[eduardo88]

Look, Vancouver is not the crap-hole that many make it out to be, but it's also not London, New York, or Paris. I think both the boosters ("greatest place in the world") and the detractors ought to get their heads out of their rear-ends and step back and make a realistic comparison of Vancouver with other cities.

In a recent issue of foreign policy magazine, Vancouver does not even make a list of the world's 60 Global Cities Index. http://www.foreignpolicy.com/story/cms.php?story_id=4509&page=1

I'm someone who loves this city, but has travelled and lived in enough places around the world to understand the city's advantages and disadvantages compared to other cities.

Was I trying to put vancouver down in any way? I was just saying how i'm amazed at how much cheaper Vancouver is compared to London (which is f*cking overpriced)

[Yume-sama]

Wow Craigslist is flooded with them now.

http://vancouver.en.craigslist.ca/search/apa?query=shangri-la&minAsk=min&maxAsk=max&bedrooms=

Nobody actually bought to live there :P? It's actually nowhere near as nice as the Ritz Carlton would / will be inside.

[officedweller]

You really realize how transient interior design trends are when you look at the Shangri-La bathroom pics and think that the countertop bowl sink already looks out of date. i.e. the motel we stayed at in Kelowna had those types of sinks...

[squeezied]

thanks for the link. the suites look alright. admittedly, i was expecting a bit more, but then again most of the pictures are of the 1 br suites. maybe it's the lighting. if i recall correctly, when the units came on the market, they started at the high 300's.

[mrjauk]

Was I trying to put vancouver down in any way? I was just saying how i'm amazed at how much cheaper Vancouver is compared to London (which is f*cking overpriced)

Hi Eduardo: You have misunderstood my intent. In fact, your comparison of London rents with those in Vancouver is a way of implicitly praising Vancouver. What I meant to suggest is that rents in London are more expensive than in Vancouver for very good reason. To reiterate, Vancouver is a nice/beautiful city, but it is not London.

[Yume-sama]

You really realize how transient interior design trends are when you look at the Shangri-La bathroom pics and think that the countertop bowl sink already looks out of date. i.e. the motel we stayed at in Kelowna had those types of sinks...

:sly: Yeah. It's really not as luxurious as I would have expected.

The luxury at Hotel Georgia, Ritz Carlton, Harbour Green blows me away, though.

[agrant]

Was I trying to put vancouver down in any way? I was just saying how i'm amazed at how much cheaper Vancouver is compared to London (which is f*cking overpriced)People generally get paid more in London, so that's something to keep in mind.

[AgentWill]

There's a listing on the MLS now. Only one so far. It's a 677sq.ft. place asking $599k for the 23rd floor.

[phesto]

Keep in mind that the units that have been completed/closed so far are only a portion of the live-work units on the lower floors. I'm not sure about all the interior finishes, but the estate units are certainly nicer and roomier.

As of last week there were 4 units left unsold from the original offering. Maybe they'll try and sell these the old fashioned way by building a show-suite within the building.

[Metro-One]

are you telling me one can buy a unit in the Shangri-la for 405 523 dollars?

[Yume-sama]

are you telling me one can buy a unit in the Shangri-la for 405 523 dollars?

$405,523? :shrug: I doubt it.

[Metro-One]

Ahh, your right, i read a post wrong and got confused, hehe, i thought something seemed really out of place.

[officedweller]

are you telling me one can buy a unit in the Shangri-la for 405 523 dollars?

Are you pro-rating 600 sq ft based on the above figure?

[vansky]

Look, Vancouver is not the crap-hole that many make it out to be, but it's also not London, New York, or Paris. I think both the boosters ("greatest place in the world") and the detractors ought to get their heads out of their rear-ends and step back and make a realistic comparison of Vancouver with other cities.

In a recent issue of foreign policy magazine, Vancouver does not even make a list of the world's 60 Global Cities Index. http://www.foreignpolicy.com/story/cms.php?story_id=4509&page=1

I'm someone who loves this city, but has travelled and lived in enough places around the world to understand the city's advantages and disadvantages compared to other cities.

Montreal didn't make it either, so Toronto is the real stuff...

Vancouver is not on par with the real world cities in terms of economy anyways. But in this corner of the universe, this city is the real stuff.

[NewfBC]

The kitchen counter tops are fugly!

Ron.

[SpongeG]

i am sure those buyers who plan to live in them wwill rip em out and redo to their own tastes

[duener]

are you telling me one can buy a unit in the Shangri-la for 405 523 dollars?

Maybe not right at the moment, but give it a year and they may be even cheaper... check out vancouvercondo.info blog for info on the real estate scene. Prices peaked in May, and all price gains for the year have been wiped out. Some analysts think 70% of buyers in the Vancouver market have been speculators (mostly locals rather than foreigners) - people snapping up presale condos, putting 5% down with low interest mortgages.

I'm a Vancouverite living in London, and the crazy thing is that Vancouver prices started approaching London prices (but without the economy/well paid salaries). So it's not surprising that with record amounts of stock, and speculators dropping out Vancouver prices are now falling faster than American cities did.

You can rent a one-bedroom in a nice part of central London for $2200 / month (see gumtree.co.uk)... I pay only $1000 / mo. in a central house share. So investors in Vancouver who are trying to rent these places for $2000+ / mo. are going find few renters.

[eduardo88]

I'm a Vancouverite living in London, and the crazy thing is that Vancouver prices started approaching London prices (but without the economy/well paid salaries). So it's not surprising that with record amounts of stock, and speculators dropping out Vancouver prices are now falling faster than American cities did.

You can rent a one-bedroom in a nice part of central London for $2200 / month (see gumtree.co.uk)... I pay only $1000 / mo. in a central house share. So investors in Vancouver who are trying to rent these places for $2000+ / mo. are going find few renters.

nice to see another vancouverite living in london :)

you only pay $1000 a month? where are you living/with how many people? i have a two bed right now in The City (between aldgate and tower hill), and my flatmate and i pay around $2400 each a month (no bills), which is quite a bit, although the building is brand new with very high quality fittings, though a bit small (obviously, its london).

[vanman]

I'm a Vancouverite living in London, and the crazy thing is that Vancouver prices started approaching London prices (but without the economy/well paid salaries). So it's not surprising that with record amounts of stock, and speculators dropping out Vancouver prices are now falling faster than American cities did.


Are you kidding??? Vancouver's housing price declines are not even close to matching the price declines in the states.



REAL ESTATE
B.C. HOUSING HEADS DOWNHILL
Boom times are over for the province following explosive growth in demand, prices

DAVID EBNER AND LORI MCLEOD

October 30, 2008

VANCOUVER and TORONTO -- Canada's most expensive housing market is hitting a significant slump, with home sales numbers falling and prices declining, the British Columbia Real Estate Association said yesterday.

"The bull market in housing is over in British Columbia, and it's been over for several months," said Cameron Muir, the group's chief economist.

The association, in a forecast published yesterday, said prices could average $453,000 in B.C. this year. But for 2009, prices are predicted to slump 9 per cent to an average of $413,000 - with much of the decline taking place before the end of this year.

The market peaked in the spring, the forecast said. Over the summer, cracks began to show. Consumer confidence wavered. People would go to open houses but wouldn't buy. Sales fell almost 50 per cent in July, compared with a year earlier, and fell more than 50 per cent in August. Prices weakened. And then the credit crisis hit - and B.C. and Vancouver prices kept falling.

The Globe and Mail

Other forecasts are more dire. Last week, Credit 1 Credit Union estimated average B.C. housing prices at $385,000 in 2009 and in 2010 at $366,000 - down about 20 per cent from this year's peak.

In 2002 and 2003, when the B.C. boom started to take off, the average price of a home in B.C. was roughly $250,000.

The B.C. market, like others in North America, was powered by low mortgage interest rates. However, the region also had numerous other factors at work, including explosive demand following an economic slump from the mid-1990s through the early 2000s, the desirability of the province as a place to reside, and the influx of foreign money and speculators.

The slump could make the city and the province more affordable for other Canadians who have considered moving to B.C., and for businesses that see an advantage in locating in the region. Civic business leaders for years have said a major challenge in attracting new businesses is the lack of affordable housing.

The current situation also quells the mantra that accompanies all booms - "This time it's different" - said Paul Boenisch, a real estate agent at Prudential Sussex Realty in North Vancouver.

"I heard people say, 'There's no more land left to build. We're a global destination now in the world.' We have to keep in mind that five years ago, before home prices doubled, we were still the same city," Mr. Boenisch said.

Outside Vancouver, B.C.'s market was beyond hot as oil money rolled in from Alberta, with energy executives and engineers buying up lakefront property in the Okanagan in the province's interior. Prices in such areas could see large declines.

In the resort of Whistler north of Vancouver, the market has been mixed for several years since the boom sparked by the low Canadian dollar petered out around 2002.

Today, particularly since the credit crisis erupted, the market in Whistler is subdued, said Ron Mitchell, an agent and owner of Sutton West Coast Realty Whistler.

"The last three weeks have been quiet - there's no question," said Mr. Mitchell, who added that the winter is likely going to be slow because residents in and around Vancouver used to use home equity loans on their principle residences to secure resort property.

With Vancouver prices down, this option is gone.

The soaring supply of homes, accompanied by weak demand, is driving down the prices.

In Vancouver, it was similar to the frothiest moments in Toronto's real estate boom this decade, when bidding wars would see homes sold for tens of thousands of dollars more than the asking price.

No longer: The B.C. Real Estate Association predicted sales will be down about 30 per cent this year in Vancouver and around B.C.

Mr. Boenisch's experience is even more severe, saying sales are already down as much as 50 per cent.

"When you have 80 per cent more inventory with half the amount of buyers, this is a dramatically different market," Mr. Boenisch said.

Last week, the Canadian Real Estate Association said that housing prices in September fell 6.2 per cent from a year earlier in 25 major markets across the country, though analysts noted the size of the decline could largely be blamed on B.C. rather than a nationwide meltdown.

Due to recent experience, the B.C. housing market has been considered something that only goes up, never down. However, there have been two long slumps in the past several decades.

After a steep rise in the late 1970s, prices fell from 1981 to 1986. From there they took off again, peaking in 1995, when they fell through 1999 and were stuck in neutral for three more years, according to research from the Sauder School of Business at the University of British Columbia.


Compare BC prices to that of the us.

Housing: It'll get worse
Hard hit cities like Sacramento, Phoenix and Las Vegas are set for more steep losses. Some real estate experts are bracing for price drops of as much as 50%.

NEW YORK (CNNMoney.com) -- With home prices plunging by more than 30% in some markets, bargain-hunters are ready to pounce.

But it may pay for buyers to wait. Many housing experts say that the worst-hit metro areas have even farther to fall, and could see total drops of as much as 50%.

"The housing boom was unprecedented in U.S. history," said Michael Youngblood, a portfolio analyst with FBR Investment Management, "and the correction will be as well."

Many erstwhile bubble cities have sustained particularly brutal hits. The median-price of a home in Sacramento, Calif. was down 35% during the three months ended May 31 compared to the same period last year, according to the real estate web site Trulia.com. In Riverside, Calif. prices fell 29%, while San Diego prices dropped 26%.

Smaller cities in California's Central Valley, such as Stockton (-39%), Modesto (-37%) and Bakersfield (-29%), also recorded steep declines.

Outside California, hard-hit markets include Phoenix (-18.8%), Las Vegas (-22%), West Palm Beach, Fla. (-32%) and Cape Coral, Fla. (-35%).

Youngblood expects that these markets will likely endure total price drops of 50% or more.
The smart money

Indeed, prices are falling faster and further than in any other post-war housing bust. During the bust in Austin, Tex., which started in 1986 and is one of the worst on record, prices fell 25%, according to Local Market Monitor, a financial data provider. And that cycle took four years to bottom out.

In other major downturns, prices in Los Angeles fell by 21% during a six-year period in the 1990s, and Honolulu home prices saw a decline of 16% in the five years starting in 1994.

Youngblood's forecast "is quite plausible," said Nicholas Perna, of the economic consulting firm Perna Associates. He finds it especially significant that the smart money, investors in the S&P Case/Shiller Home Price Index, are still buying futures as if they expect prices to continue to plummet.

The index, which tracks the sale price of specific homes as they are sold and resold over the years, is considered to be one of the most accurate home price indicators.

"The people who are putting their money where their mouths are," said Perna, "are betting on more losses."

Specifically, Case/Shiller investors are betting that Las Vegas prices will fall an additional 22% by November 2009. Los Angeles futures predict a further loss of 24.2% through November 2009, while investors expect to see Miami down another 21.6% by then.

These markets may have a hard time recovering because, according to Perna, people are afraid to buy right now, because they're concerned about over-paying. That helps explain why price depreciation seems to be accelerating.

"The most severe declines are happening right now," said Mark Zandi, chief economist for Moody's Economy.com.
Prices vs. wages

This correction was inevitable, in Youngblood's opinion; home price gains had simply out-paced income by far too much to be sustained.

Historically, home prices have averaged about four times wages. Whenever homes got significantly more expensive, people could not afford to buy and home prices fell back.

But local price-to-income ratios are still out of whack even after steep price declines, which means prices have further to fall. In Los Angeles, where the ratio peaked at 22.7, according to Youngblood, it's still in the high teens. Home prices would have to come down another 40% or so to get that ratio back into the single digits.

And it's not just the housing fundamentals that lead Youngblood to expect more drops; he also cites the local economic conditions.

"Bubble cities are now seeing fleeing employment conditions," he said. In Miami, the unemployment rate rose 34.3% between April 2007 and April 2008, according to Youngblood. And the job picture in California cities, where many jobs were housing related, has been even more disastrous.

Housing was a key economic engine for towns like Riverside, Stockton and Modesto during the boom, according to Zandi. Builders, real estate salespeople, mortgage brokers and lenders, and even retailers, like Home Depot (HD, Fortune 500) and Lowe's (LOW, Fortune 500), depended on growth in the sector.

"In all those deteriorating housing markets, it's a double hit," he said.

Ten of the 11 cities with the highest unemployment rates in the nation are now in central California, with El Centro, at 18.4% in April, leading the way. Other double-digit disaster areas were in Merced (12.3%), Yuba City (11.8%), Modesto (10.7%), Visalia (10.3%), Hanford (10.2%) and Fresno (10%).

Many of these cities are also among the leaders in foreclosure rates. As more foreclosed properties hit the market, prices are further depressed.

"[The price drops] reflect a wave of distressed sales of [bank-owned] properties and discouraged sellers," said Zandi
The brighter side

Not all analysts are pessimistic. Richard DeKaser, chief economist for National City Corp (NCC, Fortune 500) points out that, thanks to the price declines, the national market is the most affordable it's been in years.

With the national median price of a single family home at $204,229, mortgage rates around 6% and the average household earning nearly $50,000, the average home buyer spent about 23.2% of their income on housing during the first quarter of 2008. That's down from 2006, when homeowners spent an average of 29% of their income on housing.

Nariman Behravesh, an economist with Global Insight, says that while he expects home prices to stagnate for the next five years, Youngblood's 50% price decline forecast is "a little extreme."

But that target is realistic, Behravesh says, after taking inflation into account. In markets where prices have fallen 35% or more, and remain depressed through five years of 4% inflation, home prices in real dollars will absorb an additional 20%-plus hit. That would push price declines to over 50%.

Of course, there are plenty of wild cards that could affect home price trends, such as the election, Congressional legislation, unemployment, gas prices, and interest rates.

"This whole market is fraught with all sorts of implications," said Perna, "and it ain't over until it's over." To top of page


Vancouver is experiencing a market correction with the added drag of the US housing bust and worldwide financial crisis making things worse. There is no bubble bursting here.

[Yume-sama]

Yeah, Vancouver and Canada as a whole are completely stable compared to the USA Market. Most of them are completely crashing, except for NYC.

Keep in mind the average price of a house in the USA is still around $200,000 and in Phoenix, Las Vegas, and etc. you can still build a HUGE 4 bedroom house with triple car garage, heated pool, on an acre of land for under $230,000, you can probably buy them now for $180,000 - $160,000. Heck, in places like Michigan whole neighborhoods have been selling for $10,000 a home at the foreclosure hearings. I haven't heard of anybody foreclosing in Canada.

I do believe this is a market correction, it was hyper inflated. Calgary is seeing the exact same thing, though mainly with multi-family homes downtown (although for slightly different reasons, they built too many condos downtown not realizing nobody actually wanted to live in downtown Calgary, and now the investors can't sell or rent them), single family homes have only gone down $3,000 average from last year. I think it will be the exact opposite in Vancouver, with Downtown maintaining its value, and the suburbs decreasing. Vancouver has a brighter future in the immediate short term than other Canadian cities, if nothing else, because of the 2010 Olympics.

[CoryHolmes]

Heck, in places like Michigan whole neighborhoods have been selling for $10,000 a home at the foreclosure hearings.

Yeah, but that's in Michigan :whip:


I went to see this building in person on Sunday and boy, it's huge. I took a wrong turn coming out of Waterfront Station and ended up on the seawall. Fortunatly, the building wasn't that hard to find from... well... everywhere :tup:

[subdude]

Officedweller is correct.

Also not sure if it's been posted, Urban Fare opens on the 15th.

Right on, I finally have an alternative to Capers and soon the new Safeway will be open too.

[duener]

Are you kidding??? Vancouver's housing price declines are not even close to matching the price declines in the states.



No joke here eh! Anyone reading this thread, thinking "man, I'd like to live in Shangri-la"... just give it some time. I used to believe all the hype people would say about Vancouver... the Olympics are coming, rich foreigners are buying everything, we're running out of land, etc. But anyone interested in the market that built all these condo towers discussed here will find plenty of info on some of the real estate blogs. I only started to get into it lately, and wow it's fascinating to watch this market turn. It's only bad news for condo flippers. For average people looking to buy a home, falling prices are good news.

Hopefully the fall in prices might also turn the developers towards building office towers again.

Anyway, I'm no expert here but at the beginning of the year the "analysts" were predicting Vancouver prices would keep going up. The market peaked in May and now five months later is down 9.8%
http://vancouvercondo.info/2008/11/vancouver-house-prices-down-98-from-peak.html

Compare that with declines from peak in the US. Remember, markets there peaked some 2 years ago. Plug Vancouver's 9.8% drop at 5 months into the following graph:
http://seattlebubble.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2008/07/case-shillerhpi_decline-from-peak_200805.png

It looks like it's declining faster than US cities did, not surprising considering it was one of the "bubbliest" cities in the world. Hopefully now we'll get office towers and quality architecture. :banana:

[duener]

nice to see another vancouverite living in london :)

you only pay $1000 a month? where are you living/with how many people? i have a two bed right now in The City (between aldgate and tower hill), and my flatmate and i pay around $2400 each a month (no bills), which is quite a bit, although the building is brand new with very high quality fittings, though a bit small (obviously, its london).

I'm in a house with two others, but granted it's old and in Hammersmith. Some friends of mine had a one bedroom, quite small, but in Notting Hill for £1100 /mo. Sounds like you're in quite a high end place. On a funny note I've seen Aussies, and Brazilians sleeping in bunk beds, four to a room - paying £70 / mo. each. Though I recall meeting Mexican students in Vancouver squishing 5 to room in the West End.

[Metro-One]

:previous: I'm looking at buying my first place sometime next year or the year after, man would it be nice if i was able to time it just right. Buying a place in the Shangri-La for a decent price and having that as your first place, wow, now there is a dream, haha (i am not holding my breathe).

And my mistake was a read this post - There's a listing on the MLS now. Only one so far. It's a 677sq.ft. place asking $599k for the 23rd floor. as 677sq.ft. at $599 a sq.ft. hehe, if it sounds too good to be true, read it again. :jester:

[johnjimbc]

As some of you know, I moved here from Washington, DC, last year. Even before my move, it stuck me that aside from obvious differences Vancouver is much more comparable to DC particularly as far as housing goes.

The actual cities are similar in core population (about 750K in downtown itself) thought the DC metro area has more population than Vancouver (approximately 4 million compared to Vancouver's approximately 2.5 million).

Prices are similar, though Vancouver has a strange logarithmic curve in which larger penthouses here are higher-priced that comparable penthouse condos in DC. I tell friends in DC that condo pricing in Vancouver is like DC except it has some Manhattan peaks on the high end. If someone in DC is going to pay more than $2 Million for a condo, they'll just buy a house instead. There are a lot of large brownstone and Victorian style row-homes throughout the downtown neighborhoods which give them the room, their own bit of history (i.e. heritage). Also, since DC has very strict ceiling height restrictions throughout the city, you don't have a $4 million dollar view. Anyone on the low rise hills that sweep out into the neighborhoods from the federal center might get a glimpse of the Washington monument or capital dome so there isn't a lot to gain and folks don't pay it.

Not to say DC is inexpensive, it is anything but. But in the middle range of condo pricing, you could almost swap a listing in DC for one in Vancouver and be in the same basic ball-park of finishes, amenities, price, size, and location. Likewise, single-family home prices are surprisingly comparable as well for equivalently desirable neighborhoods.

The reason I bring all of this detail up is because DC, while impacted by the US housing shut-down, has actually fared very well overall. Prices had climbed quite substantially from about 1998 to 2005. During that time (and continuing since then), the city and surrounding burbs saw an incredible amount of positive growth, with solid development and fiscal infrastructure improvements (schools, rec centers, shopping, etc) throughout the region. When the slowdown hit the US markets starting in late 2005, prices in DC leveled off sharply and even slipped a bit in some neighborhoods. And while the investment ratios in the city were never as astronomical as those in Miami, Las Vegas, Phoenix and other US markets, some investors were caught off guard the first year of the slowdown (those who had purchased pre-sale condos completed just as the slowdown hit).

However, since that time and even into the current quarter, prices in DC have held fairly steady. Single-family home prices even continued to rise until this year, although at a slower pace. And this year, they simply leveled out in DC with a modest retreat in Maryland.

If you are so inclined, there are some great charts for DC and for the nearby Maryland suburbs at www.gcaar.com. Just click on Home Sale statistics for the data. The information is well-presented and easy to follow. Yes, you are looking at average data, which can always be a bit misleading. But it still drives home the point that the "bottom" did NOT fall-out in DC. Instead, things just leveled out and the amount of overall activity slowed from a frantic pace to something a bit more "normal."

From all that I know, it is just not proper to compare Vancouver to Las Vegas. The investment ratios in Vancouver just don't come close to the totally unsustainable levels experienced in some US cities. And though Vancouver has seen quite a construction boom, it pales in comparison to the amount of construction seen in some US markets. I suspect Vancouver is much more on par with DC, a city which has a fairly solid core population and workforce, but which is also a magnet city attracting some professionals who come, live and work and may end up making it a long-term home but who may also end up moving elsewhere with a change of employment, or change of political scene. I hasten to add, however, that DC has a much greater diversity of workforce than people ever seem to expect - too much 24-hour political reporting leads people to think everyone is a lobbyist or government employee . . . they aren't.

At any rate, for what it is worth, I suspect Vancouver is experiencing a slow-down that may result in some retreat from the recent highs. But I don't see anything that convinces me some horrid collapse awaits the city. I expect activity will slow and prices may level out for a few years until the economy works through the recessionary period, which is what DC has experienced in the US.

Another good comparison city might be Boston, Mass, though I don't know the details of that market to the degree I know Washington, DC.

[johnjimbc]

What is funny is I posted my last comments before looking at the chart link from a few comments back.

I really have to question the DC numbers shown on that chart. Unless they are using some bizarre "regional" value for Washington, DC (equivalent of including Prince George in Vancouver's numbers, for example) the 20% drop they show simply isn't valid. I have seen some "analysis" which does just that for US markets.

But in the urban core and even metro area of DC, the market has been and remains rather resilient. Better for buyers, yes, but for anyone hoping to go back and find 1999 pricing. Not gonna happen. I sold a condo in DC in 2006, after the market had peaked. The "sister" unit of our neighbors sold just last month, essentially the same price (theirs actually sold marginally higher but within 2%). I've seen countless neighborhood charts, various building comparable sales, and knew other buyers and sellers experiences in the past 3 years. That 20% drop figure is pure fiction or an amazing stretch using some range of data (or range of region) to obtain the desired chart.

Here is the link to the market data I referenced above:

http://www.gcaar.com/statistics/default.htm

[Architype]

For anyone buying, I think the market in Vancouver will bottom out in 2009. So far, most of the time my predictions have been right.

[vansky]

For anyone buying, I think the market in Vancouver will bottom out in 2009. So far, most of the time my predictions have been right.

When do you see the overall real estate price drop?

[SpongeG]

if you look now you can find some good prices

i know i saw a condo in the west end dropped from $315,000 to $285,000 - thats a $30,000 price drop!

[officedweller]

Back in 1994 when I bought my condo (one year old never lived in), the Hong Kong investor I bounght it from lost $54,000 on it (roughly 20% of the price he had paid).

[phesto]

With respect to Living Shangri-la, it’s important to remember that the majority of units were purchased over 4 years ago. So far all of the purchasers have completed and there are only 3 re-sale listings on MLS which would indicate that the majority of purchasers are not just investors looking to flip upon completion, nor are prices for units in this tower likely to drop to the same extent as prices in other, less unique properties (like for instance the Spectrum towers where there are dozens of resale units currently for sale). The higher estate units (which haven't completed yet) are even less likely to be put on the market due to their pricing.

In other words, Shangri-la is mostly luxury product and given the above I don't think it is neccesarily a good indicator of what's going on in the residential market right now.

[subdude]

At the Urban Fare opening today, great place:

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3026/3031971709_d7dabfdb13_o.jpg

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3063/3031982461_c9beda0254_o.jpg

[Hed Kandi]

Very Nice !

[Yume-sama]

Supposedly they have an amazing bakery. Someone will have to tell me how the cakes are at this location... :haha:

[excel]

looks good.

[SpongeG]

Supposedly they have an amazing bakery. Someone will have to tell me how the cakes are at this location... :haha:

they have a big load of something - it looks like it has raisins in it - its huge - like huge and its $399.99 yes almost $400 for a loaf of something - but its huge

I was at the store last night - it was quite nice - lots of looky loos - the cafe seating that faces alberni street is really nice

but as my friend kept pointing out things are a bit pricier than the same things at shoppers drug mart

they also had a jar of spaghetti sauce for $11.99 - who pays that much! you can make your own if you want something special

[AlexYVR]

they have a big load of something - it looks like it has raisins in it - its huge - like huge and its $399.99 yes almost $400 for a loaf of something - but its huge

I was at the store last night - it was quite nice - lots of looky loos - the cafe seating that faces alberni street is really nice

but as my friend kept pointing out things are a bit pricier than the same things at shoppers drug mart

they also had a jar of spaghetti sauce for $11.99 - who pays that much! you can make your own if you want something special

Hilarious, SpongeG. . .I was also there last night and also freaked out about the 12 dollar jar of spaghetti sauce, and that 20 kilo muffin (whatever the hell it is).

I recommend going and seeing the mushroom tree. . .

[SpongeG]

yeah that was pretty cool

my friend said he didn't think he would ever purchase the mushrooms so close to the ground in case someone earlier had their dog in there - lol

there are quite a few youtube videos of the shang online now - a few by realtors trying to sell units etc

[Yume-sama]

$12 spaghetti sauce?

Oh, I get it. Everything must be organic and locally produced :P?

If it's Prego we have problems!

[SpongeG]

oh the Burberry Store has signage up for the Alberni street side

looks nice

[eduardo88]

$12 spaghetti sauce?

Oh, I get it. Everything must be organic and locally produced :P?

If it's Prego we have problems!

grown on the green roof of the convention centre :haha:

[red-paladin]

If the NDP wins the election, they'll probably grow medical weed on the roof of the convention centre

[Cypherus]

If I win a million dollars, I just might be able to buy enough groceries from Urban Fare that would last me a week.

[Hed Kandi]

oh the Burberry Store has signage up for the Alberni street side

looks nice

:D

[cornholio]

For anyone buying, I think the market in Vancouver will bottom out in 2009. So far, most of the time my predictions have been right.

yup, iv been predicting since 2003 a turnaround around mid 2008 and a quick rebound late 2009 to early 2010 followed by a few years of moderate growth.
it doesnt hurt that the global economy is expected to turnaround late 2009 and the psychological effect of the approaching olympics, though I expect the prices to stagnate after the olympics.
personally im considering buying a property november-december 2009, I also wont be paying any attention to the market when I do that because my decision will be made now.

[officedweller]

... and that 20 kilo muffin (whatever the hell it is).


Must be a pannetone ("Tony Bread") - the Italian Christmas bread (like raisin bread) - given the season. I buy mine at Superstore for $4.99.

[subdude]

A few more photos from this morning (all photos by me):

West Georgia side
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3039/3038637995_5963b69644_o.jpg

West Georgia/Thurlow corner, the shop here looks pretty close to opening although the exterior still needs a lot of work:
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3247/3038637989_9b2761f85a_o.jpg

Went back for breakfast today (10 bucks for 2 eggs and bacon! but it was pretty good)
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3282/3039452672_0835cd65f0_o.jpg

[officedweller]

I drove past the other night - I thought that the chandeliers look good (didn't actually see any other details) - definitely stood out through the glass facade and adds a counterpoint to the typical sleek wood modernist look - it's a bit trendy to mix the traditional with the modern (i.e. Opus lobby).

[SpongeG]

Must be a pannetone ("Tony Bread") - the Italian Christmas bread (like raisin bread) - given the season. I buy mine at Superstore for $4.99.

yah that sounds like it might be that kind

vbut i wonder how long a $400 loaf of whatever will sit there - whoever buys it will be getting something stale :yuck:

[Yume-sama]

I bet it's pretty good for $400 :P Let's all chip in! :D

[officedweller]

Those things can last months!
If it's unsold, I think they donate it to a charity.

[Cypherus]

Those things can last months!
If it's unsold, I think they donate it to a charity.

I used to work for the OWFG and stuff like this usually went to the Food Bank. This loaf of bread, however, might be better suited for the Vancouver Humane Society by the time it gets donated.

[Delirium]

here's some nice pics all from www.flickr.com

http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y101/oct2gon/2896868966_3c5419c5d9_b.jpg
by Digial8

http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y101/oct2gon/3024652074_6d7d72413c_b.jpg
by markvbc

http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y101/oct2gon/3032990645_a2f469f864_b.jpg
by petre992

[Yume-sama]

I really like the second one!

[excel]

^same. background for now.

[phesto]

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3010/2863915263_b18f3b15c5_o.jpg

Thought it was worth mentioning that Urban Fare has intentionally set up most of their bottled drinks against the glass on the Georgia side, so that at night when the lights are on inside each of the transparent squares looks a different colour - almost like it is stained glass. That combined with the illuminated signage really lessens the blank-wall effect.

[thefly]

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3010/2863915263_b18f3b15c5_o.jpg

Thought it was worth mentioning that Urban Fare has intentionally set up most of their bottled drinks against the glass on the Georgia side, so that at night when the lights are on inside each of the transparent squares looks a different colour - almost like it is stained glass. That combined with the illuminated signage really lessens the blank-wall effect.

Too bad that there isn't an entrance on this side.

[raggedy13]

^Ya. You'd think they could get a lot more foot traffic with a Georgia entrance as well.

It's a pretty nice wall at least. I checked it out last night and also noticed the bottles in the window. I'm glad they made a creative effort on the inside instead of just putting up random things that would entirely block the windows or ruin the flow of the external design. Nice to see the Urban Fare sign up to break up some of the monotony of the stonework as well.

I checked out the inside and was definitely impressed. Sure it isn't really anything new in comparison to their other stores but in trying to see it through the eyes of a tourist who might be wandering down Alberni it makes for a great urban experience. In terms of presentation, atmosphere, and variety of interesting 'luxury' items it is a great place just to look around, especially with that soothing jazz music playing at all hours. :D

I was there around 6-6:30pm and it was quite busy so it seems they should do well there.

[AlexYVR]

:edit:

[raggedy13]

^ :haha: Well in that case you have my sympathy.

[wrenegade]

A lot of the time you don't want more entrances. Actually, most of the time. Whole Foods wasn't all that happy having 3 entrances at Park Royal, but they had to. It's hard to lay out the store with checkstands, harder to police more exits. Plus, once the hotel is finished, you'll be able to walk through the gap between the podium and the hotel and get around to the Alberni entrance fast enough.

[thefly]

A lot of the time you don't want more entrances. Actually, most of the time. Whole Foods wasn't all that happy having 3 entrances at Park Royal, but they had to. It's hard to lay out the store with checkstands, harder to police more exits. Plus, once the hotel is finished, you'll be able to walk through the gap between the podium and the hotel and get around to the Alberni entrance fast enough.

Good point

[SpongeG]

the burberry is fully stocked and open - that was fast considering saturday it was full of workers working away

walked past it twice last night - the runway TV's are cool

a lot of people walking past sort of stopped in their tracks and looked at the signage and than looked at the windows more closely

no chav prints in sight

[SpongeG]

A look inside Vancouver's tallest luxury condo

Towering above Georgia and Thurlow Streets, the 61-storey Shangri-la dominates the downtown skyline.


Vancouver's tallest building is home to high end condos, a luxury hotel set to open next year and upscale shops like Burberry and Urban Fare.


It's also home to Ron Bascom. Bascom originally bought the $759,000 unit as an investment. Four years later, he's moving in.


"I never want to pack another box," he says. "This is it. Our plan is to stay here for quite a while."


All but four of the Shangri-la's residential units have sold. The remaining suites, including one on the 58th floor, are all in the $5 million range.


"We were almost finished in terms of sales by the time the downturn did occur now those remaining four units again it might be a little slower for those final sales but it's not something we're concerned about," says Shangri-la spokesperson Jill Killeen.


Condos are a tougher sell for some people these days considering the number of high-end projects that have stalled and gone belly-up. It's a trend the Shangri-la's developers are hoping to see reverse.


"When you talk about other brands coming into the market again it adds strength to your destination. We hope that this is just a blip in time," says Killeen.


A lot has changed since the units started selling in 2004. The local real estate market has cooled, and the current economic downturn isn't helping matters. In fact, residential unit sales in B.C. were down 51 per cent last month compared to last year.


"Consumer confidence right now is very low," says Cameron Muir, president of the B.C. Real Estate Association (BCREA). "In British Columbia, it's the lowest it's been in a couple of decades."


Muir says buyers first began to back off when gas prices shot up, followed by the global financial crisis. But there may be a silver lining.


"Affordability is quietly improving and, in fact, by the time we get to the end of this year for more than two years," says Muir.


Places like the Shangri-la are still out of reach for most, but if the association's prediction comes true -- other homes may not be anymore.


With a report from CTV British Columbia's Maria Weisgarber

http://www.ctvbc.ctv.ca/servlet/an/local/CTVNews/20081122/BC_shangri_la_081122/20081122/?hub=BritishColumbiaHome

video story at the source ^^^

http://images.ctv.ca/archives/CTVNews/img2/20081122/120_bc_shangri_la_081122.jpg
All but four of the residential units have sold at Vancouver's Shangri-la.

http://images.ctv.ca/archives/CTVNews/img2/20081122/bc_600_shangri_la__2_081122.jpg
Towering above Georgia and Thurlow Streets in Downtown Vancouver, the Shangri-la dominates the downtown skyline. (CTV/Maria Weisgarber)

[SpongeG]

more pics from CTV

http://images.ctv.ca/gallery/photo/shangrila_20081122/image3.jpg

http://images.ctv.ca/gallery/photo/shangrila_20081122/image2.jpg

http://images.ctv.ca/gallery/photo/shangrila_20081122/image4.jpg

http://images.ctv.ca/gallery/photo/shangrila_20081122/image5.jpg

http://images.ctv.ca/gallery/photo/shangrila_20081122/image6.jpg

http://images.ctv.ca/gallery/photo/shangrila_20081122/image7.jpg

http://www.ctvbc.ctv.ca/gallery/html/shangrila_20081122/photo_7.html

[mr.x]

That's mine.

[Yume-sama]

more pics from CTV

http://images.ctv.ca/gallery/photo/shangrila_20081122/image5.jpg



I don't know why, but this one really made me laugh :haha:

[NetMapel]

Gosh the elevator traveling time is probably 10 minutes one way. That's 20 minutes waiting for the elevator coming from the lobby and then taking you downstair, haha :haha:

[mr.x]

^ lol, the elevators are probably high-speed. 5-mins max to the top.

[fever]

I don't know why, but this one really made me laugh :haha:

There's just so much good stuff in there. I would have missed it if you hadn't pointed it out, too. This suite must belong to the people who designed the lobby